S03.E07: Crème De Menthe

[GingerMarie]

When will I learn to watch the episode a 2nd time before commenting?  I did like this episode as it showcased Jamie's real life and all the consequences that go with it.  Claire going back to the room and man there trashing it looking for Jamie's ledgers.  Removing the barrels of alcohol from the brothel.  The burning of the print shop.   This was all about Jamie  and  Claire just happened to be there.  I do see both J and C showing the other that do indeed have their own identity and they are very strong willed individuals.  It looked to me as a 'battle of wills;.  Jamie's comment 'he knew better how to raise young Ian' and then Claire voicing her own opinions on this subject was no more than I know better than you.  On both parts.  20 years is a long time.  Getting to know each other again is going to take a long time.  This episode was well acted.  I did see chemistry between the 2 (not a lot of physical contact) but a lot of emotions.  Overall I am very impressed and sets things up for a great next episode.  PEACE

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[thesparkinside]

I got the impression that Fergus was relaying what he'd heard other people say about Claire. The wording is something like, "They say she took a few lives, too." He doesn't say he saw her take any lives, or that he believes she took any lives. I'm sure that if there was gossip she was a white lady (or a witch or a fairy, or whatever), then the gossip would naturally progress to, "And she killed people, too!" Fergus doubtless heard that talk. I'm not clear why the writers threw that bit of conversation in there, actually. Ian already knows Auntie Claire has a reputation, and what Fergus tells him doesn't add much...

 

I actually really enjoyed this episode overall. I think I liked it better than last episode. Upon second viewing, my opinion may switch. You all make some very valid points about weird continuity things (like Ian ending up on the floor) and plot things (like when Claire just runs down to the apothecary for some stuff so she could perform bloody brain surgery) and character things (like Jamie lying to Ian about Young Ian's whereabouts).

Also, the excise men are like, "We'll search everywhere for the goods!" Then they search ONLY the basement. Because, obviously, they couldn't have hidden the contraband ANYWHERE ELSE. Like in the attic . . . They suck at their jobs.

I enjoyed the episode, though. The fact that Jamie and Claire butted heads over their differences actually did ring true, even if some of the specifics seem a bit OOC. If we're being honest, someone raised in the 20th century would have a really hard time relating to someone raised in the early 18th century. Last episode, it was all subdued lovey-dovey--which didn't particularly work me; there needed to be underlying conflict, or just so much emotion from them that any other considerations (aside from "OMG we're together") was subsumed. The slow undressing and long, weepy speeches didn't do it for me (sorry). A bit of conflict seemed more realistic in that they started working through things. And hoo boy do they have things to work through. (I'm not wild about how Jamie spoke about Brianna and about Ian and Jenny, though. In fact, it was pretty outrageous.)

What really made the episode, though, was Young Ian. His bromance with Fergus was delightful, and I liked that Fergus gave him advice instead of picking out a whore for him, lol. I liked his singing with the barmaid and that it was just two young people having fun. Kind of a bummer how the night ended for him, though! I also bought the fact that Fergus allowed him to negotiate with Whoever It Was. Fergus was right there and could step in if it looked like things weren't going well, but they were, so he let the kid get some experience. And it showed Ian to be bright and capable, which is also important for everyone to know/keep in mind. Oh, and if Jamie did just send Fergus to kill that guy (if necessary, I think; Fergus isn't like a hitman for hire), then that wouldn't be super out of character for Jamie OR Fergus. Jamie's pretty ruthless, and Fergus is not squeamish (he is also very loyal to Jamie).

[WatchrTina]

On 10/29/2017 at 5:44 PM, DittyDotDot said:

There were a lot of false rumors floating around about Claire. Some thought she was more witch than healer and that's how she ended up in the Star Chamber to begin with. Fergus was a young and impressionable kid, so maybe he heard some things floating around when they were in France?

Okay, I like this.  I don't think Claire or Jamie would ever tell Fergus what happened in the Star Chamber but you are right -- she DID have a reputation as La Dame Blanche in Paris and Fergus would probably have heard of that.  He probably also repeated it to wee Jamie and now all the kids (including Ian as we have seen) think their (late) Auntie Claire was at the very least, a fairy.  And I still like my idea that Laoghaire has been putting it about the Lallybroch nieghborhood that Claire was a witch.  In the book, Jenny admits that she saw Claire's "fetch" (supernatural double or an apparition according to Wikipedia) at Jamie's wedding to Laoghaire.  I wonder if TV Laoghaire saw it too.  That would TOTALLY cement her belief that Claire is a witch.

But as for the specific rumor that Claire has killed -- well, I'll be interested to see how that plays out.

Edited November 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

Not a lot of things gross me out and seeing the head stuff didn't bother me, but the sounds were pretty icky.

The episode was only so-so for me. I'm not sure if I'll watch it again. Maybe I'll want to later in the week. Just not my fave episode here. It makes sense that there's tension and all, but still.

Jamie's all I would give up everything for you, but I will not move out of this brothel even though you asked me to. Okay, dude.

I know the Campbells are pretty much different characters, but they are not even close to how I pictured them.

[AheadofStraight]

Finally watched the after episode discussion. Not sure if this factors into anything but interesting to note that this is the first episode by a new writer, right? Karen Campbell.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

Finally watched the after episode discussion. Not sure if this factors into anything but interesting to note that this is the first episode by a new writer, right? Karen Campbell.

I had the same thought, and I think it does matter.  She clearly doesn't know the characters to write the best dialogue for them, imo.

[Thalia]

Yeah, this one was kind of odd, in that on first viewing, I only liked Jamie and Claire when they weren't together.  They were fine with other people, but when they were talking, or even looking, at each other?  Yuck.  Who are these people?  

Ian just about broke my heart, and that made Jamie's callous disregard of his feelings about Young Ian seem 100% worse.  Although, Jamie's insistence that he knew best how to raise Young Ian did provide my favorite line of the episode, "better that he's with his uncle than among Godforsaken strangers on the streets of Aberdeen.  Or [shudder] Dundee." 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Thalia

[CalamityBoPeep]

15 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

This one I liked! I just need to resign myself that they're never going to get the really big moments right, but all the things in between will be enjoyable.

Loved, but had to laugh at Sam's Batman leap over the ledge in the burning print shop. :P I bet he enjoyed filming that.

While I'm not super thrilled with the content of the discussion, I am glad that the discussion of Brianna is not finished for Jamie.

In general, I'm happy to see these plot wheels turning and some familiar things being set up. I was really pleased with how they used Willoughby this week. We see him with responsibilities and Jamie's trust, and he definitely has an interest in Claire's medical knowledge so that will be interesting later.

I regret not getting the book scene of the way Ian meets Claire again for the first time, but the tone wasn't right for that (nor the timing). *whispers* But we did get more emotion out of him in that initial moment of seeing Claire than we got out of Jamie before the ale pot incident...

We must be looking for the same things, Petunia. I enjoyed this one too, though I can understand the frustration that some are having with it. I loved all the looks from Jamie, like "here we go again, with the surgery and life-saving-thing." LOL He still gets her, in some ways. 

I also like the groundwork they laid, creating the sense that yes, these two are both still very unsure about how to integrate the 20-years-later-selves with the people they knew before Culloden. They still have the passion and vibrant awareness of each other. They still make each other's days more interesting. But they really don't know what's making the other tick yet. That gives me something to look forward to, because of course they will get these things sorted and come back together as a team (after the big blow up, next episode). 

It also put me in mind of how marriages do change as time passes. The first season, they were becoming one, getting to the heart of each other. The second season they were recovering as a team and driving toward a mission. Now... the kids are grown, the nest is empty, and you're looking at that other person going "right, where were we?" LOL Only they haven't had the opportunity to grow there together. Jamie and Claire have to figure it out on the fly, and the recognition that deep down, each one has changed, is a splash of cold water.

Also like the way Willoughby is being used. And I'm kind of glad that Wee Ian's deflowering wasn't a "here's how to forget bad things" moment, but was a set-up by Fergus.

[Biggie B]

I was OK with this episode, even though I totally get the criticisms posted here. Not to revive this argument again, but I thought Jamie did look a touch older. What I appreciated most about the episode were the small expressions and gestures from the actors at various moments throughout: the Asian gentleman's stoicism [huge apologies for not being able to recollect his actual name] as Claire drilled into that guy's head; the look on the Madam's face as the search of the brothel began and her quick explanation of the puddle in the cellar; but most of all, Ian Senior's facial expressions upon seeing Claire again, especially when he was leaving and he scrunched his eyes closed as he hugged Claire. When he said, "We mourned you," my heart broke a little for him. That was my favorite scene.

Having read the books so long ago, I have no memory of the Campbells or their significance, so I'm curious to be reminded.

I'm enjoying Fergus, but he sure doesn't seem to be 30 years old. Regardless, his bond with Young Ian is great, and they do indeed make a great team.

[Ziggy]

6 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

I was kinda bummed at the wife reveal. It seemed like non readers were pretty clueless what he was hiding and I think this diminishes the surprise. I hope the "previously on" before the start of the next episode doesn't feature a scene with her in order to keep some shock value...

Oh, me, too!!!  So far when someone started to say, "What about ... " Jamie would cut them off and say, "No, I haven't told her,"  "Yes, I need to talk to Ned."  I really wished that had continued.  When I read the book I was completely shocked!  I think some people will still be surprised when they find out who the wife is, but it would have been best if the audience and Claire found out about a wife at the same time.

[Nidratime]

I think this was a bridge episode, getting the characters from point A to point B. It's not an episode for deep character development nor were the events in that portion of the books like that either. It was event, event, event. Action, action, action.

Also, I am surprised people expect Jamie and Claire to immediately revert back to their previous relationship and their previous mindsets. You do remember that 20 years have passed and Claire's been living somewhere where *she* was drilled with first do no harm and the Hippocratic oath -- hundreds of years in the future. So, I'm not going to chide her for trying to do everything she can for someone who's injured even if he tried to hurt her first.

I think this episode is also a resetting after the first blush of lovers reunited. They are each struggling to come to terms with who they are now, in every day life, after being apart for so long. Plus, we have to keep in mind, these are two people entering their middle age. No longer people in their 20s who can be more easily manipulated.

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, thesparkinside said:

(I'm not wild about how Jamie spoke about Brianna and about Ian and Jenny, though. In fact, it was pretty outrageous.)

Not sure what you didn’t like, but if you’re referring to his comments while looking at Brianna’s bikini picture, I have to disagree. The pictures are from the 20th century, but Jamie is an 18th century man. Of course, he’d be scandalized and concerned with his daughter’s honor. I thought it was poor judgment on Claire’s part to include that particular picture, but if one thing is becoming crystal clear to me about Claire, it’s that she’s not one for understanding situations or details. 

[Nidratime]

Rewatching the scene where Young Ian is losing his virginity and approaches the lady from behind. Like Uncle, like nephew!

[Clawdette]

I'm okay with Jamie saying they will continue to live in the brothel.  Claire's been back for 10 minutes and she has no idea of the dangers throughout Edinburgh that may be awaiting a seditious printer and smuggler.  Jamie clearly feels protected in the brothel and staying there would given him time to get used to Claire being back and to figure out a plan of action for moving forward.  

Claire's the one who just dropped into the middle of the play.  She should give herself as well as Jamie some time to get acclimated.  

[FnkyChkn34]

53 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Rewatching the scene where Young Ian is losing his virginity and approaches the lady from behind. Like Uncle, like nephew!

Why does everyone at this point in time think that the normal way to do it is like horses?  Young Ian even said that he'd seen some of the women in the brothel do it this way sometimes... so why didn't he see them do it various other ways at other times, to know that there are plenty of other positions?  I think this scene was just taking a poor joke a couple steps too far.

[toolazy]

2 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

Finally watched the after episode discussion. Not sure if this factors into anything but interesting to note that this is the first episode by a new writer, right? Karen Campbell.

 

That explains a lot.

[Cloudberryjam]

Does anyone know, was what Marg. Campbell said to Claire a prediction or a “seeing” moment, or just babble?

[MedievalGirl]

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So . . . why exactly does Jamie leave a fire burning in the print shop along with a pot of hot molten whatever-that-was that Ian flings at the one-eyed guy?  The print shop burning down seems downright inevitable when you see all those unattended open flames in that shop.

It was molten pewter or lead and is used to make type. It takes a while to heat up enough to melt so I can totally see keeping it molten overnight. 

[theschnauzers]

10 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Love the bromance of Fergus and wee Ian. Love these two.

I think this is there in the books but not conveyed as well because of the ways the novels have been written. Fergus has known Young Ian for the latter’s entire life, since Fergus came to Lollybroch immediately before Culloden, and thus, was there where Young Ian was born. I would expect nothing less. 

[ruby24]

Given what they're changing from the books, I'm betting they're going to completely omit the upcoming storyline of Claire owning a slave. They will also likely increase her horror at slavery, etc. That was one of the things that bothered me about the book, the fact that she really didn't care much at seeing up close the kind of horror that existed in this time and what was done to human beings. She didn't like it, but she basically tried to just avoid it so that it affected her personally as little as possible.

That was really annoying to me. I always felt stuff like that should have been a much bigger factor in her conscious choice to LIVE in this time, but instead it it was her contemplating whether she could live without vacuums and baths and stuff.

The way they changed Ian's age (from 14 to 16) and the way he lost his virginity tells me they're a little weary of some of the more unseemly stuff in the books all of a sudden. And changing Jamie's character so that they don't shock us with his marriage like they did in the book was a flat out bad choice, imo. I mean, that would have been a great scene, for the effect it has on the audience and everything.

[Petunia846]

Regarding Claire "taking lives"...couldn't it just be that all the poor country folk who thought she was a white woman/witch/healer would feel suspicious when someone she was caring for died? I mean, surely she couldn't completely heal everyone and some people would die, so maybe they were just suspicious of why a witch couldn't keep everyone alive and maybe that led them to thinking that she purposefully killed/didn't save everyone.

[IntrovertGal]

19 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Meh from me. Even as a health care professional, if someone attacked and tried to rape/murder me, I’d let his head explode. *shrug*

This felt like a lot of filler. And it dragged for me. 

Agreed. I was mostly bored while watching this episode. The only thing I enjoyed was the bromance between Fergus and Young Ian. The rest was very meh.

So that's two episodes in a row that I found lacking. The print shop episode was disappointing for me (maybe my expectations were just too high) and this episode had way too much plot (plus it was stuff that I didn't find particularly interesting in the book either) and not enough character moments / character development. Hopefully, the show will get its groove back next week.

[Nidratime]

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and this episode had way too much plot (plus it was stuff that I didn't find particularly interesting in the book either)

I'm guessing if you're not fond of a part of the book, then you also might not be fond of the show's plot that's based on that part of the book either.

What I found lacking in the episode -- and I don't blame the writer or the other creative team much for it -- is that this part has always been a series of events that basically closes down Jamie's life in Edinburgh and Scotland, as a whole, and eventually sets them off on an adventure. It's a transition episode. There was no central theme that tied the episode together, whereby you can watch this episode alone and feel like you had a beginning, middle, and end, like a miniature story. And, since the books do tend to get more episodic in the future, we probably will get more like that. It might feel disjointed to those hoping for episodes that are more self contained. But after next week, we're basically going to be off on an adventure and I'm not sure how much all that action will allow for character development too. We'll see.

[Haleth]

If nothing else, I'm thankful to the writers for making Yi Tien Cho a normal person rather than a walking stereotype.  Reading of him in the book always makes me uncomfortable.

[AheadofStraight]

9 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Oh, me, too!!!  So far when someone started to say, "What about ... " Jamie would cut them off and say, "No, I haven't told her,"  "Yes, I need to talk to Ned."  I really wished that had continued.  When I read the book I was completely shocked!  I think some people will still be surprised when they find out who the wife is, but it would have been best if the audience and Claire found out about a wife at the same time.

From this article: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/outlander-creme-de-menthe-matthew-b-roberts-interview-1052529?utm_source=twitter

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Instead of having viewers find out when Jamie's second wife shows up out of the blue to confront Claire, the team wanted to let everyone in on the secret as soon as possible so it's not as much of a shock. In fact, the writers even considered having Jamie confess to Claire in the print shop episode but ultimately decided against it since it would have been too much of a change.

Really? I personally love to be shocked on my TV shows, just as I loved (loved-to-hate) being shocked about this in the book. Sometimes I don't get their decisions.

Edited October 30, 2017 by AheadofStraight

[Jodithgrace]

I think they had to firmly establish Claire's stubbornness about medical matters in order to justify her jumping ship, so to speak, to treat the smallpox epidemic later on. After all, they seem to have omitted the whole scene where Claire diagnoses the dying man on the dock, causing Percival's ship to be burned, and earning his enmity. 

Voyager earned MY enmity because, after a wonderful reunion and great scenes at Lallybrook, the rest of the book seemed like DG was just trying to keep Claire and Jamie apart, while all I wanted was for them to have some peace and quiet to get to know each other again. Instead, there was all this PLOT! I am very curious as to how they are going to cram even a portion of it into the remaining episodes. 

At least they seem to have jettisoned quite a bit of plot already, with the murder mystery, the burned ship, and other Edinburgh stuff. We're heading back to Lallybrook and hopefully, that should be good.

[Pestilentia]

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Why does Ian look a hundred years old?  

Well, I thought Ian the elder was looking mighty fine and aged quite well.   

That said I haven't really enjoyed anything about this show since the Helwater/Willie episode.

Everything seems so stilted and off kilter.

[Haleth]

23 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

After all, they seem to have omitted the whole scene where Claire diagnoses the dying man on the dock, causing Percival's ship to be burned, and earning his enmity. 

That was in season 2, with the Comte St Germaine.

[AD55]

23 hours ago, katville said:

Ian looking so old fits in with the book, where Ian has lived a hard, back-breaking life. Some would say Jamie has too but I think that the weight of Lallybroch on Ian's shoulders and dealing with an amputation during a time period where there was really no therapy or assistance prematurely aged him. Steven Cree still did a great job with that scene.

I disagree. Hard as things have been at Lallybroch, the conditions don't compare to what Jamie's been through.  Ian's an amputee and I know that he and his family have suffered  serious deprivations (though the adaptation makes it appear that things weren't that bad at Lallybroch), but Jamie has been flogged within an inch of his life twice, raped and tortured, suffered a nearly fatal injury at Culloden, spent 7 years clinically depressed and living in a cave, and spent another several years in a hellish prison. I don't think his relatively easy life as a groom at Helwater would have reversed the damage he suffered from those experiences.

I can hand wave all of that away (it's TV period drama, not Paplillon), except the problem with making some characters age and others not, IMO, is you start to question how realistic it is that someone with Jamie's life experiences looks so incredibly fit. I compare it to TV shows about high school students. I can ignore that the actors are in their twenties, so long as they all look more or less the same age. But throw in a 16-year-old, and you're all of a sudden wondering why the rest of the students at the school look as though they're working on their master's degrees.

I meant to bring this up for last week's episode, but did anyone else notice a continuity problem with Jamie's scars? In the Helwater episode they were not as prominent, which makes sense, as scars fade over time. At the time, I thought, good for the makeup people--they will have a slightly easier time of it when Sam has to get his kit off. But then in last week's episode, they looked the same as they had in E1S1.

Edited October 30, 2017 by AD55

[AD55]

54 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

From this article: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/outlander-creme-de-menthe-matthew-b-roberts-interview-1052529?utm_source=twitter

Really? I personally love to be shocked on my TV shows, just as I loved (loved-to-hate) being shocked about this in the book. Sometimes I don't get their decisions.

I didn't bother to read the article, but I completely agree with you on this. If I were a writer, I'd be rubbing my palms together thinking about how shocked the unsullied were going to be. I certainly wouldn't be strategizing about how I could lessen the shock. Good grief.

[Thalia]

I'm not sure where to mention this, but all this talk about the marriage 'reveal,' along with Jamie and Claire catching up, has gotten me to wonder why Claire never came out and said something simple like, "why didn't you ever get married again?"  Honestly, I wondered why none of them ever thought about it when they were researching things back in the 20th century.  Yes, she asked him if he'd ever been in love, but you don't have to be in love to get married, and this was particularly true in an era when marriage was often based on family as a business unit.  The man provided shelter and food, the woman took care of the home and bore/raised children. 

I guess she assumed that if he was married in 1766 that Mrs. Jamie would already be installed in the love nest in the brothel, raising their adorable imps. 

That said, when reading the book, it never occurred to me at all until the Second Mrs. Fraser showed up at Lallybroch, but then, I knew about the years he'd spent at Helwater, and that he hadn't gotten married up to that point.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Thalia

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Thalia said:

I'm not sure where to mention this, but all this talk about the Laoghaire 'reveal,' along with Jamie and Claire catching up, has gotten me to wonder why Claire never came out and said something simple like, "why didn't you ever get married again?"  Honestly, I wondered why none of them ever thought about it when they were researching things back in the 20th century.  Yes, she asked him if he'd ever been in love, but you don't have to be in love to get married, and this was particularly true in an era when marriage was often based on family as a business unit.  The man provided shelter and food, the woman took care of the home and bore/raised children. 

I guess she assumed that if he was married in 1766 that Mrs. Jamie would already be installed in the love nest in the brothel, raising their adorable imps. 

That said, when reading the book, it never occurred to me at all until the Second Mrs. Fraser showed up at Lallybroch, but then, I knew about the years he'd spent at Helwater, and that he hadn't gotten married up to that point.

Probably in the Buiks v. Show Thread, since it's dealing with stuff that could be considered spoilers? Since who Jamie's "wife" is hasn't been revealed by name, and there are the unsullied that lurk in this  thread as well. Or add spoiler tags?

As for the bolded, if you will recall, Jamie started to tell her, but she stopped him and said "there's no rush, is there?" So that's why he didn't. And as others have stated, like @DittyDotDot, both were in this happiness bubble and didn't want to deal with other stuff, until it all imploded in Jamie's face.

And based on the several interviews I've seen with the previous writers, Toni, Matt and Ron, none have ever struck me as "Muahahahahaha, let's see how we can shock those that are the unsullied." For me, that's crossing the line into passive aggressiveness, and the one thing I can positively say about them is that they want to respect the series and the characters. It doesn't always work out in execution, but they do try and are sincere.

But this new writer? Can go away. Or she should have watched previous episodes or read the buiks. Then we wouldn't have such inconsistencies.

I totally understand why Claire would go into surgeon mode to try and save that asshat Barton. BUT, the transition, if you will from her CLEARLY being in shock at what happened, and then hearing his ass groan, to suddenly go into Surgeon, 'I must try to save him' mode, was a disconnect for me.

What I loved about that opening scene? How Jamie quietly said "Sassenach," looked at her worriedly, and slowly slid his hand down Claire's arm to take the knife from her hand, because he did realize and see that she was in shock. Beautifully done. Aside from that nonsensical "sunrise embrace but supposed to be fighting" bullshit (since it was supposed to be cold, rainy and dreary that day, hence the loss attributed in some part to the boggy ground), I have been loving EVERYTHING Sam has been doing and how he's portrayed Jamie this season. GIVE HIM A FUCKING EMMY!!!!!

Edited October 30, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Thalia said:

I'm not sure where to mention this, but all this talk about the Laoghaire 'reveal,' along with Jamie and Claire catching up, has gotten me to wonder why Claire never came out and said something simple like, "why didn't you ever get married again?"  Honestly, I wondered why none of them ever thought about it when they were researching things back in the 20th century.  Yes, she asked him if he'd ever been in love, but you don't have to be in love to get married, and this was particularly true in an era when marriage was often based on family as a business unit.  The man provided shelter and food, the woman took care of the home and bore/raised children. 

I guess she assumed that if he was married in 1766 that Mrs. Jamie would already be installed in the love nest in the brothel, raising their adorable imps. 

That said, when reading the book, it never occurred to me at all until the Second Mrs. Fraser showed up at Lallybroch, but then, I knew about the years he'd spent at Helwater, and that he hadn't gotten married up to that point.

See, as I recall, I had it figured Jamie had a wife when I read the book, but I never would've figured who it was he married in a million years. There were hints along the way, though: Fergus made a comment when he first sees Claire in the brothel; Ian made some veiled comments as did Wee Ian; and Jamie was clearly holding something back from Claire on the ride to Lallybroch and then he sent Wee Ian on ahead to "warn" everyone; not to mention how they suddenly skipped over Jamie's story of how he ended up in Edinburgh made me think he had a wife at Lallybroch. So, even though they were more overt with the hints, I'm not really sure it's that much of a change. I think the non-book readers will be sufficiently shocked by who he married even if they aren't surprised by him being married.

Edited October 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the non-book readers will be sufficiently shocked by who he married even if they aren't surprised by him being married.

A couple even predicted that was what he was hiding.

[AheadofStraight]

In real life, my non-book reader friends all thought he was withholding something about his business. Not a one thought about a wife so I'm disappointed they revealed it. They are now trying to guess who...and one has mentioned Laoghaire. Bummer.

ETA: Diana confirmed this is the episode that she was disappointed in with out of character moments. Honestly I'm a bit relieved because I would've expected worse and I was expecting it to be in the next episode...

Edited October 30, 2017 by AheadofStraight

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

In real life, my non-book reader friends all thought he was withholding something about his business. Not a one thought about a wife so I'm disappointed they revealed it. They are now trying to guess who...and one has mentioned Laoghaire. Bummer.

Oh, I don't know if it's a bummer. I mean, they don't know who it is yet, they're just speculating. That's part of the fun sometimes, picking up on some of the clues and trying to suss it out on your own,--just like I did when reading the book--but the reveal is still very satisfying, IMO. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, AD55 said:

Hard as things have been at Lallybroch, the conditions don't compare to what Jamie's been through.  Ian's an amputee and I know that he and his family have suffered  serious deprivations (though the adaptation makes it appear that things weren't that bad at Lallybroch), but Jamie has been flogged within an inch of his life twice, raped and tortured, suffered a nearly fatal injury at Culloden, spent 7 years clinically depressed and living in a cave, and spent another several years in a hellish prison. I don't think his relatively easy life as a groom at Helwater would have reversed the damage he suffered from those experiences.

I assume that Ian's faster-graying hair is a visual cue that Ian's health is not good.  Note -- the following is a spoiler for the later books.  It's true that Jamie suffered multiple injuries during the last 20 years but, thanks to Claire's coaching about eating green vegetables and his good luck in landing at Helwater he hasn't yet fallen victim to disease -- even after all the years of imprisonment at Ardsmuir.  The fact that it was a work prison -- with the prisoners getting out in fresh air every day -- may have helped him.  Ian, alas, was repeatedly thrown in the Tollgate (I think that's the name of the infamous prison) and probably left to rot in the cell 24/7 for whatever time he was there.  As a result he picked up Tuberculosis.  I don't know how that disease progresses but I assume that Ian's looking older than Jamie is a visual hint that Ian is already ill.

[AAEBoiler]

I'm still having problems with some of the casting. Brianna is way too "dainty" for what we know of her in the books and I'm having a very hard time reconciling how the casting of Ian (the younger) is going to fit of what he becomes downstream. Also, and I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion, I've never cared for the casting of Jamie - I always pictured someone a lot more "rough around the edges" as apposed to the pretty-boy we have in Sam. However, you can't deny the chemistry between Sam & Caitriona so I guess that wins out in the end.

[FnkyChkn34]

55 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I assume that Ian's faster-graying hair is a visual cue that Ian's health is not good.  Note -- the following is a spoiler for the later books.  It's true that Jamie suffered multiple injuries during the last 20 years but, thanks to Claire's coaching about eating green vegetables and his good luck in landing at Helwater he hasn't yet fallen victim to disease -- even after all the years of imprisonment at Ardsmuir.  The fact that it was a work prison -- with the prisoners getting out in fresh air every day -- may have helped him.  Ian, alas, was repeatedly thrown in the Tollgate (I think that's the name of the infamous prison) and probably left to rot in the cell 24/7 for whatever time he was there.  As a result he picked up Tuberculosis.  I don't know how that disease progresses but I assume that Ian's looking older than Jamie is a visual hint that Ian is already ill.

Is this known, from the books?  Or speculation?  Makes total sense, I just can't remember.

[JenTen1585]

Very interesting episode!  It was kind of jarring in a lot of ways, but I get it.

Coming from the perspective of already reading the book, I know we are bracing for the big fight.  I know that Claire leaves in the book, and has to be dragged back by Ian and only comes because she is told Jamie is dying.  I always thought she would have eventually come back herself, at least I hoped so.  I was actually shocked at that point in the book that she would actually leave.  I think she just irrationally freaked out.  I allowed it because the beauty of the characters are that they are not perfect, just wonderful.  But I never liked this part coming up.  I thought it showed the worst of both Jamie and Claire.   

Anyways, that's for next episode (I'm a little worried about that cliff scene - Claire never in a rational mind in the book expressed that she didn't think they fit together any longer.  Once she was of a rational mind, she seemed to be able to compare to Frank and understand why Jamie married Laoghaire and what their relationship was missing.  But she seems to be speaking rationally on the cliff to Jamie who is standing, but was already shot.  Who knows though - it's just a preview out of context - I'll wait and see what happens.)  

But at this time in the book, there is no hint from any character (except Fergus maybe, I think?  But not enough to tip of the reader ....) that Jamie is married.  While all the craziness happens in these first few days where they are together in Edinburgh, the craziness seems completely unrelated to their reunion, and they seem like a team through it.  I remember the scene in the book on the second night of their reunion where Jamie says he feels bad that Ian is worried about young Ian while he is laying with Claire, happier than he has ever been, and she agrees.  I liked in the book that Jamie really didn't know exactly where Ian was, he just had more faith that he was fine and was less worried about him than his father was.  

There doesn't seem to be any lingering doubts between Jamie and Claire after the first afternoon in the book up until the Laoghaire bombshell hits - which actually seems to come out of nowhere in the book.  

I guess this is my main thought - the show is being more realistic - Jamie and Claire are acting more like a real human would act in this situation, which is good.  All the characters are referencing the marriage and Jamie is worrying about it about, which is more realistic.  There is more strain and uneasiness there about Bree and how she was raised, and that's understandable and makes sense.

BUT - I don't always like things to be realistic.  It's fiction and as long as it's relate-able and believable enough, I mostly want it to make me happy. 

So I get it, but I was hoping for a little more happy this episode than we got.  I know next episode is going to be bad news, and I'm braced for it, but I kind of wanted to relax in the happiness for one more episode, and was expecting to, based on the book.  So this was off expectation, which is why it jarred me a bit.   

[AheadofStraight]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know if it's a bummer. I mean, they don't know who it is yet, they're just speculating. That's part of the fun sometimes, picking up on some of the clues and trying to suss it out on your own,--just like I did when reading the book--but the reveal is still very satisfying, IMO. 

I suppose. We'll see how it plays out on screen!

[Nidratime]

If I didn't know anything, I would be speculating that it's Mary McNabb.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Is this known, from the books?  Or speculation?  Makes total sense, I just can't remember.

It's known in both the books and the show that Ian was arrested and thrown in jail repeatedly in the first few years following Culloden.  And, yes, it's known he's in poor health in the books and Jenny's speculation is that it was due to being thrown in cold and drafty cells for days on end when they were already starving and such. 

1 minute ago, Nidratime said:

If I didn't know anything, I would be speculating that it's Mary McNabb.

That's who I was thinking when I read the book the first time. 

[Atlanta]

I'm was surprised that Jenny didn't set up Mary and Jamie. Did Mary remarry and thus take her out of the running? Can't remember. Sticking him with that brat Leg Hair never made sense. Why would Jenny want that to marry into her family?

Still glad they toned down Yi Tien Cho and glad Claire always calls him that. She doesn't know Gaelic so wouldn't know what dirty phrase it sounds like. LOL Happy they didn't have Fergus pick out a prostitute for him but instead set him up with a light-skirt whom he had a crush on. She made it sound like she's a part time prostitute. That confused me. 

Again, the Fergus and wee Ian bromance. Love! They are the dashing version of Angus and Rupert. I love the male friendships on this show and can't wait for the close bond Marsali and Claire develop and then Brianna becomes close with her as well.

I wonder if the press will be saved? I saw Jamie move it, but don't know it would be possible to salvage.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Atlanta

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I'm was surprised that Jenny didn't set up Mary and Jamie. Did Mary remarry and thus take her out of the running? Can't remember. Sticking him with that brat Leg Hair never made sense. Why would Jenny want that to marry into her family?

I can't remember if Mary remarried or not, but I just figured Jenny didn't actually know Legohaire or what she was about. She just knew that she needed a man and she had two young children and that alone would probably make Jamie step up and take care of them. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 10/29/2017 at 4:40 AM, Petunia846 said:

Loved, but had to laugh at Sam's Batman leap over the ledge in the burning print shop. :P I bet he enjoyed filming that.

I watched with my BF, who had never seen an episode before.  I was constantly explaining who everyone was, and when Jamie leapt, I said, "Oh yeah, he's also Spiderman."

[AheadofStraight]

12 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I wonder if the press will be saved? I saw Jamie move it, but don't know it would be possible to salvage.

I don't know if it will end up saved but in the link I posted a bit earlier they discuss the press quite a bit. They decided it would've been way too big for Jamie to get it out by himself and wouldn't have fit through the door. Whether they decide it survives the fire or not, they don't say.

[MV713]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

That was in season 2, with the Comte St Germaine.

Who was so darn yummy to look at !

[Wouldofshouldof]

I read the books, so I know Margaret Campbell and her brother figure in the story later on, but I can't remember how.  Can someone remind me?

[FnkyChkn34]

21 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I'm was surprised that Jenny didn't set up Mary and Jamie. Did Mary remarry and thus take her out of the running? Can't remember. Sticking him with that brat Leg Hair never made sense. Why would Jenny want that to marry into her family?

...

I wonder if the press will be saved? I saw Jamie move it, but don't know it would be possible to salvage.

I think Jenny had no idea who Leghair is/was except that Jenny probably knew that Jamie already knew her from Castle Leoch.  Maybe Jenny heard through the grapevine that Leghair had a thing for Jamie as a girl, so she set them up as adults.  I highly doubt Jenny knew anything about what an evil brat Leghair was/is.  And Jamie was so despondent, he didn't care anymore.

8 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

I don't know if it will end up saved but in the link I posted a bit earlier they discuss the press quite a bit. They decided it would've been way too big for Jamie to get it out by himself and wouldn't have fit through the door. Whether they decide it survives the fire or not, they don't say.

In the show, Jamie has 2 presses.  So I'm guessing one will be saved somehow, if needed.