S01.E06: Lethe

[starri]

I'm sure Michael's DISCO t-shirt will be coming soon from ThinkGeek, and I want one as much as I want Paul and Hugh's Starfleet jammies.

[CanadaPhil]

DISCO..very

I see what they did there.

Cheeky monkeys.

[Kelda Feegle]

right up there with the D.A.S.H drive

[paigow]

Lethe was a TOS character that worked for Dr. Tristan Adams. [Dagger Of The Mind]

In Greek mythology, Lethe was a river in Hades. Drinking its water caused complete forgetfulness.

[starri]

Indeed, you'll be the toast of your next round of anbo-jystu match, Parresis Squares tournament, or Mok'bara class in your DISCO workout shirt.

[CanadaPhil]

"Bring her back in one piece..... Or don't bother coming back"

 

Now THAT was interesting!

Hmmmmmmmmm. 

[marinw]

So this era has Holodecks? I’m just going to hand-wave and put STD in a separate timeline:

Not everyone has a mirror twin, as a person’s parents may meet up in one timeline but not another. In the Kelvin and Prime timelines there was no Michael, which is why Spock never mentioned her. Poof!

I liked the Disco shirts. And Tilly’s hair. And I like how Michael and Tilly are friends. Michael may be the first person to take Tilly’s ambitions to be a captain seriously.

I knew Admiral Cornwall was in trouble as soon as se said she was going to reive Lorca of command.

The mind-meld effect was hockey.

Edited October 23, 2017 by marinw

[statsgirl]

How much earlier than TOS is this supposed to be?  Spock hasn't even entered the Science Academy yet, and then he has to go to Star Fleet and rise to the rank of second in command.  I thought Spock was older than Michael.

So is Lorca going to save Cornwall and then she'll forgive him?

Tilly and the doctor are still the only two characters I actually like but Stametz is rapidly rising in my book since he got a personality change via the spores.

59 minutes ago, CanadaPhil said:

"Bring her back in one piece..... Or don't bother coming back"

Now THAT was interesting!

I'm getting Burnham triangle vibes with Tyler.  That's a shape that never works for me.

[starri]

19 minutes ago, marinw said:

So this era has Holodecks? I’m just going to hand-wave and put STD in a separate timeline:

The Enterprise had something similar in TAS.  So it's not totally out of left field.  Do I wish they would have avoided it?  Yes.

Still, there was a lot that I liked.  I LOVED Michael being a mentor for Tilly.  If Tilly can maintain her positive outlook and bubbly personality through the war, then the Federation has already won.

And I did like the scenes on Vulcan.  And the actress playing Amanda.

Being blissed-out on spores is a good look on Paul.

I do wish the food slots wouldn't editorialize so much, although it did make me laugh.

[marinw]

4 minutes ago, starri said:

I do wish the food slots wouldn't editorialize so much, although it did make me laugh.

It would be hard to go on a binge on this ship: "Are you SURE you want this much ice cream?"

[starri]

And I think the whole "We've already met" thing at the end between Michael and Ash pretty much confirms the current fan theory.

I was really convinced that, once Lorca pointed out that Cornwell could sub for Sarek at the peace conference that wasn't, she was going to get on the shuttle and it was going to explode, with the viewer left to conclude he was responsible.  And frankly, that would have been utterly irredeemable for me, so I'm glad they didn't go quite that dark.

The other thing I liked about the Vulcan stuff was how it all looked.  The vistas were gorgeous, and I liked the look of Sarek's ship.  It seemed like a more advanced version of the Vulcan ships from Enterprise.

[CanadaPhil]

10 minutes ago, starri said:

......

I was really convinced that, once Lorca pointed out that Cornwell could sub for Sarek at the peace conference that wasn't, she was going to get on the shuttle and it was going to explode, with the viewer left to conclude he was responsible.  And frankly, that would have been utterly irredeemable for me, so I'm glad they didn't go quite that dark....

I almost had the feeling Lorca was going to "Hunt for Red October" her with a cup of tea when she turned her back to walk out of his ready room.

I like Lorca... but he sure has his dark side.. and we all know he was hoping the poor Admiral was going to be the victim of another Klingon blindside. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

So this era has Holodecks? I’m just going to hand-wave and put STD in a separate timeline:

Not everyone has a mirror twin, as a person’s parents may meet up in one timeline but not another. In the Kelvin and Prime timelines there was no Michael, which is why Spock never mentioned her. Poof!

Nice try, but the showrunners have insisted that this takes place in the Prime timeline.

 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

How much earlier than TOS is this supposed to be?  Spock hasn't even entered the Science Academy yet, and then he has to go to Star Fleet and rise to the rank of second in command.  I thought Spock was older than Michael.

Only ten years earlier (i.e., 2256), which is why people find the continuity breaches re the uniforms, the Klingons, the technology (yeah, I KNEW they were going to go there with the holodecks!), and the fact that we never heard of Spock's having a foster sister before now so irritating (to put it mildly).  I just wonder how much more retconning we're going to be subjected to -- is Q going to show up next?  Or maybe the Dominion or the Borg?  How about a new Temporal Cold War with the Xindi?

Edited October 23, 2017 by legaleagle53

[statsgirl]

I can understand why they would want to move beyond the original Star Trek with the clunky computers and the really obvious human-looking aliens but it's a problem to go too over the top.  Why can't they have the Klingons we're been familiar with for the past twenty years? These are too different to be genetically related.

They're really going to have to walk back the spore drive before the series ends.

When Cornwall freaked out that Lorca had a phaser at his bedside, I was surprised. Don't all Americans sleep with a gun beside their bed?

Seriously, why was she surprised that a week after Lorca had been tortured, he's still so jumpy.  No one recovers from an experience like that so fast.

Overall, I liked this episode a lot better than the last one. No one was tortured not even CGI spore symbiots.

[DrBriCa]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

How much earlier than TOS is this supposed to be?  Spock hasn't even entered the Science Academy yet, and then he has to go to Star Fleet and rise to the rank of second in command.  I thought Spock was older than Michael.

The show starts in 2256, about 10 years before Kirk's adventures but 2 years after Pike & Spock's adventure in the original TOS pilot episode, "The Cage." So Spock is currently a lieutenant science officer aboard Pike's Enterprise. The mind-meld sequences during this episode flashed back to a time around 2249 before Sarek brought Burham onto the Shenzhou, when she graduated from the Vulcan Science Academy. Spock was still a teenager at that time presumably finishing at the Vulcan Learning Center, and then a year later he chose to enter Starfleet instead of the VSA. He graduated 4 years later and was still a fresh face on the Enterprise when it visited Talos IV. 

So by the time of Discovery's first episodes (2256), Burnham has already been a Starfleet officer and on a starship for 7 years, compared with Spock only being out of the academy and on the Enterprise for 2-3 years. (Of course, don't tell Harry Kim that Burnham was already a commander and a first officer after seven years on one ship!)

[Frozendiva]

Perhaps the Klingons developed or stole some sort of tech to make them look more 'human' to other 'aliens' - that would explain the genetic shifts that took 10 years (instead of maybe 10,000 or so). Like a weird sort of terraforming. Maybe the Talosians gave it to them. The Tardigrade and the spores must also have been removed from Starfleet records.

Kept drifting in and out of the episode.

Of course, as all rogue and not quite on the up-and-up captains, Lorca keeps a phaser in his quarters and in his bed.

Felt sorry for the Admiral being captured.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Frozendiva
typo

[Unusual Suspect]

It's a small thing, but I will say that I love Discovery's computer. The fact that the replicator gives you commentary on your food choices is frickin' hilarious. Also, reason #329 why I would never get into Starfleet: I would kill it after my second cookie.

[tpel]

3 hours ago, starri said:

I was really convinced that, once Lorca pointed out that Cornwell could sub for Sarek at the peace conference that wasn't, she was going to get on the shuttle and it was going to explode, with the viewer left to conclude he was responsible.  And frankly, that would have been utterly irredeemable for me, so I'm glad they didn't go quite that dark.

 

This turn of events seriously disturbed me. I can't see how Lorca could have known that the klingons would nab Cornwell, but he certainly acted like he did. If so, that's unforgivable in my book. (And I regard his killing of his crew as at least potentially forgivable.) Even dragging his feet on rescuing her is pretty despicable, only slightly justified by the fact that Cornwell herself was just telling him not to go off half-cocked without clearing things with Starfleet. I kind of hate him right now, and until this episode he was my favorite character. 

Love spore-addled Stamets. Lorca and Burnam's reactions to him were funny too. I'm not too fussed about the holographic training program. The shoot-em-up clearly had limited parameters, a far cry from the holodeck technology we see in later Treks. Given what we can do today with virtual reality, it doesn't seem like a stretch that such a program would be available more than a century from now.

[steelyis]

I'm warming up to Burnham. I like her mentoring Tilly; I even like Burnham being a taskmaster about it. I like her reevaluating her worldview after learning Sarek sold her out in favor of Spock.

I usually don't care for women leaning too heavily on the guidance of men on the shows I watch, but I did like Burnham going to Ash after his advice about reaching Sarek turned out to be correct. It felt in character and didn't diminish her agency. Plus, they could have teased their conversation with romantic undertones, but they didn't, and I appreciate that.

Lorca is manipulative, opportunistic and shady as hell, but I love how bemused he was at Stamets new attitude. Surly, borderline insubordinate Stamets he can handle, but Lorca had no idea how to deal with the easy going version and it was hilarious. And Jason Isaacs gives amazing WTF expressions.

[thuganomics85]

Sweet, Mia Kirshner is the new Amanda!  Always good to see a former Defiance actor on another sci-fi show!

Enjoyed seeing more of the Michael/Sarek relationship, even though it mainly went through common territory.  She thought he was ashamed of her for not qualifying for the Vulcan fleet, but it turns out that he was actually forced to pick between her and Spock, and he feels guilt for what he did (especially since Spock ended up being a rebel and joined Starfleet!)  I did like that there wasn't a big heart-to-heart at the end, because there is still no way Sarek will open up this early on, but I like how you could see he was still effected by her words.  Sonequa Martin-Green and James Frain are pretty good together.

A pretty good episode for Michael in general with that and also her budding mentorship with Tilly.  Hope they don't ruin it.

So, apparently early replicators would actually tell you what is in your food and all that good stuff.  I'm guessing they changed it in future upgrades, because there complaints from people that they felt like they were being judged!

Lorca definitely has issues, but I thought Cornwell may have been jumping the gun a bit for wanting to flat-out get rid of him.  Of course, now that she's been captured by the Klingons, that has been put on hold.  50-50 on wherever Lorca suspected a ruse and let it happen or not.

Ash Tyler is here as the new chief of security and already making friends!  But there is something about the way he's with Michael that makes me suspicious.  And the fact that Lorca trusts him so much already is another big warning sign for me.

Happy Stamets is actually kind of scarier then normal Stamets!

[snowwhyte]

I don't get the Vulcan logic terrorists. They believe humans are inferior because their actions aren't based on logic. They want to remove human influences from Vulcan society so they attempt to kill a human child by blowing up a learning centre. Is that logical? Is terrorism the best and most logical way to achieve their goals? If the idea behind terrorism is that you inspire terror in the population and that forces changes in policy or behaviour then in a society that actively suppresses emotion the use of terrorism makes even less sense.

[starri]

It happened on Enterprise.

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, marinw said:

It would be hard to go on a binge on this ship: "Are you SURE you want this much ice cream?"

Since they are allowed to swear in this timeline, I wonder how many people reply with "F##k you replicator, can't I just enjoy a tub of Rocky Road after breaking up with my f###ing boy/girlfriend??"

[Vandy10]

I agree with Tilly: Lt. Ash Tyler is very hot.

I really thought, from the second she said he was too messed up to be Captain anymore, that the Admiral was going to bite it. First I thought Lorca would actually kill her in his bedroom, then I figured he'd rigged the shuttle somehow, and then at the end I realized he'd just let her walk into an obvious trap. Bye, bye Admiral!

I did love Isaacs' delivery of the "don't take my ship; she's all I got" line. He really sounded like a wounded little boy there. Now whether that's because it's how Lorca really feels and Isaacs sold it as an actor, or because Lorca is one helluva manipulative man and lied through his teeth, I still don't know.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Vandy10
errant punctuation

[CanadaPhil]

6 hours ago, tpel said:

..... I'm not too fussed about the holographic training program. The shoot-em-up clearly had limited parameters, a far cry from the holodeck technology we see in later Treks. Given what we can do today with virtual reality, it doesn't seem like a stretch that such a program would be available more than a century from now.

This is it exactly!

It was NOT a TNG holodeck, but a training simulator simply projecting target images. 

Lorca and Ash even had to have sensors rigged on their gear in order to provide the sensory feedback of being hit and to record their "kills" on an old-school style LED meter.

I don't know why anyone would be up in arms about this?? Its a perfectly plausible device. 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Since they are allowed to swear in this timeline, I wonder how many people reply with "F##k you replicator, can't I just enjoy a tub of Rocky Road after breaking up with my f###ing boy/girlfriend??"

There was a simelar exchange between Troi and her replicator in TNG, without the swearing.

Over on The Orville, a stay-at-home (or stay in cabin) Dad was eating a huge bowl of Rocky Road.

Edited October 23, 2017 by marinw

[UNOSEZ]

I enjoyed this episode.. Hippy stamets was a riot... Loved Michael and Sarek.. Hope they at least have Michael talk abt her relationship with her foster brother... Maybe in the nxt star trek movie Spock and Uhuru can have a convo abt how she and his Foster sister share a somewhat similar aesthetic 

[MissLucas]

What were those scars on Lorca's back - the ones the Admiral so lovingly traced with her fingertips? They looked like logograms to me. Traces of Klingon torture? L'Rell seems to have gone for his eyes last episode so I guess they must be connected to how he lost the Buran. Maybe he had been captured and tortured and used as bait and when the Buran came to the rescue he managed to get free but the best he could do for his crew was destroying the ship? Still doesn't explain how he got away from the Klingons though.

The Admiral was toast the moment she threatened to take away the Discovery. I'm actually surprised Lorca did not out-right betray her himself. He's truly hiding some horrific stuff while fighting to keep it together. The Discovery is his rescue buoy - threaten that and you're gone. Also not surprised about Sarek's mystery. Once Ash had pointed out that there must be something else going on with that memory than what Michael had assumed it was clear where this was going. Speaking of Ash: damn, those matriarchs are good!

Glad the show has also found some sense of humor: Tilly kicking Michael under the table, loopy Stamets and the editorializing replicators were all great.

[Helena Dax]

If theories about Ash are true 

Spoiler

I must admite I'm impressed by his ability to understand Human psychology. He looked completely Human when he was talking to Michael.

 

Oh, Sarek, that was a difficult decission... I can't be mad at him. And it would explain why he was so angry with Spock when his son chose to join Starfleet.: he was actually angry with himself.

Michael's back on the bridge! That's my girl!

I'm glad Lorca didn't kill the admiral, I don't want him to be that evil. I still don't trust him, though. I don't even know if there is some dark reason behind his interest for Michael. 

Stamet high on spores is fun.

[rtms77]

Has this Expeditionary Force ever been mentioned in TOS relating to Spock? He choose Starfleet back then instead of the Vulcan Science Academy. Yet they doubled down in calling the VSA this new name. I was almost convinced this was again a slightly skewered timeline. While the Vulcan leader casually mentioned it when talking to Sarek, they both kept calling it the other name, even Michael did. Yet Spock never called it that, aleast I don’t recall it.  None of this was mentioned in TOS.

Sorry I guess this Force is where you go after you graduate VSA? Was this in Enterprise? And Why would Spock go through the SFA while Michael apparently never actually went? She seems to have been off loaded to Greigouh directly.

Edited October 23, 2017 by rtms77
New info

[Irishmaple]

Jason Isaacs is absolutely rocking this show. I can’t imagine anyone else pulling off the blend of competence, shadiness, vulnerability and PTSD that he’s giving Lorca. Even if I hated everything else, I’d watch Discovery just to see what Lorca is going to do next. And he is shady as hell. I knew the Admiral was screwed the minute she promised to take Discovery away. No matter how good her intentions towards Lorca himself and the crew/ship, that was the wrong card to pull. I wouldn’t have been surprised if her shuttle malfunctioned. The Klingons did him a solid but I have no doubt had the conference gone smoothly Lorca still would have come up with something.

He’s surrounding himself with shady people too. Michael is a convicted mutineer, infamous among the crew; Ash is a former POW, completely unknown to the crew; Stamets takes huge risks for science and is now loopy. They’re all questionable, and I really like them. Tilley’s grown on me because, under the chatter and charm, she’s pragmatic and ambitious. No wonder First Officer Saru is so edgy. 

Having seen the movie, everything about Vulcan is depressing. Mia Kirschner was a lovely Amanda but, again, depressing.

[that one guy]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

The Admiral was toast the moment she threatened to take away the Discovery. I'm actually surprised Lorca did not out-right betray her himself. He's truly hiding some horrific stuff while fighting to keep it together.

 

5 hours ago, Vandy10 said:

I really thought, from the second she said he was too messed up to be Captain anymore, that the Admiral was going to bite it. First I thought Lorca would actually kill her in his bedroom, then I figured he'd rigged the shuttle somehow, and then at the end I realized he'd just let her walk into an obvious trap. Bye, bye Admiral!

I did love Isaacs' delivery of the "don't take my ship; she's all I got" line. He really sounded like a wounded little boy there. Now whether that's because it's how Lorca really feels and Isaacs sold it as an actor, or because Lorca is one helluva manipulative man and lied through his teeth, I still don't know.

 

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Lorca definitely has issues, but I thought Cornwell may have been jumping the gun a bit for wanting to flat-out get rid of him.  Of course, now that she's been captured by the Klingons, that has been put on hold.  50-50 on wherever Lorca suspected a ruse and let it happen or not.

 

14 hours ago, starri said:

And I think the whole "We've already met" thing at the end between Michael and Ash pretty much confirms the current fan theory.

I was really convinced that, once Lorca pointed out that Cornwell could sub for Sarek at the peace conference that wasn't, she was going to get on the shuttle and it was going to explode, with the viewer left to conclude he was responsible.  And frankly, that would have been utterly irredeemable for me, so I'm glad they didn't go quite that dark.

I was also afraid Lorca was going to sabotage the mission to get rid of the Admiral. Whether or not he knew it was a trap, his decision not to rescue her to further his own agenda was stone cold. I mean, technically he just asked command for orders, but based on how they reacted to his mission to rescue Sarek, he knew damn well what those orders would be. And the odd thing is, they're not "wrong," Admiral Cornwell herself would order him not to go after her, that's exactly the kind of cowboy shit that's convinced her he's unfit for command. And yet, he'll let her suffer torture rather than endanger his own career.

The unhinged captain is maybe part of why nobody seems to remark much on how unhinged Stamets seems to be after modifying his DNA to make himself part of the drive system? No wonder the spore drive is never mentioned in "later" Star Trek shows, I'm pretty sure between the unstable, ill-understood technology and the unstable leadership, this thing ends in some sort of major disaster. Guess: the drive itself attracted Ripper. Connecting the ship to the mycelial network also connects . . . other things? . . . to the ship. Deadly, dangerous things.

[DrBriCa]

2 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Has this Expeditionary Group ever been mentioned in TOS relating to Spock? He choose Starfleet back then instead of the Vulcan Science Academy. Yet they doubled down in calling the VSA this new name. I was almost convinced this was again a slightly skewered timeline. While the Vulcan leader casually mentioned it when talking to Sarek, they both kept calling it the other name, even Michael did. Yet Spock never called it that, aleast I don’t recall it.  None of this was mentioned in TOS.

The problem here is just that everything is labeled as "Vulcan ___ ___" with a generic title.  As best as I can tell from the episode (and from reading David Mack's novel: Desperate Hours), there are three levels: The Vulcan Learning Center (basically primary/secondary school); the Vulcan Science Academy (college); and the Vulcan Expeditionary Group (post-college career option for Vulcan's own science space fleet). The VLC was seen in the 2009 movie and in Burnham's flashbacks in the pilot. The VSA has been mentioned in TOS as the school that Spock turned down in favor of Starfleet Academy. The VEG is new for Discovery.  There's also the Intrepid, which is a Starfleet starship staffed entirely with Vulcans (which had turned down Burnham when she requested to transfer to that crew in place of the Shenzhou).

[2727]

Maybe 4 minutes of Klingons this time was just enough.

What was that piece of gear shown in closeup on Lorca's back in his quarters after Cornwell left? Was it a phaser?

Even if Lorca had outright sabotaged her shuttle to explode, it would only make him more intriguing to me. If my enjoyment of the show depended on him being an admirable role model, I would have already bailed. I love that he's mysterious and sketchy, and Isaacs is mesmerizing to watch.

I hope we eventually find out why he's so invested in Michael. She should rightly be suspicious, but I think her baseline confidence in her training and abilities prevents her from seeing it. I was sorry to see her promoted to the bridge because I liked the below decks view we got from her working in the science lab with Stamets and Tilly. Lorca could still have called on her as needed. I find Michael to be a compelling character, but I wouldn't mind if the focus shifted a bit more to other crew members.

[that one guy]

27 minutes ago, 2727 said:

I was sorry to see her promoted to the bridge because I liked the below decks view we got from her working in the science lab with Stamets and Tilly. Lorca could still have called on her as needed. I find Michael to be a compelling character, but I wouldn't mind if the focus shifted a bit more to other crew members.

Me, too, I liked having a point of view character who didn't know what was going on on the bridge. When she came up to speak to the Captain, for example, and didn't know he'd been captured. This made it easier to keep some of the show's mysteries mysterious. OTOH, it puts her in more scenes with Lorca, which may be important later if he gets increasingly shifty erratic.

Which would only make him fit in better. Shifty characters:

Lorca - PTSD makes him at least temporarily unfit for command

Stamets - shot himself full of alien DNA, probably possessed by evil intelligence from another dimension.

Tyler - if he's not a spy I'll eat my shirt

L'Rell - obviously has her own agenda at odds with Kol, but maybe at odds with Voq too. Claimed to have been captain of a ship for 7 months, when she was really stranded on T'Kuvma's ship until 3 weeks ago. Comes right out and says "I'm from the shifty sneaky lying spying clan, wink wink, nudge nudge."

Ripper - what were you really doing on the Glenn, huh? How did you really get there? For a harmless mushroom-eater, you sure kill a lot of people!

Security Chief Tori Landry - Cylons aren't really dead if you kill 'em within range of a Resurrection Ship.

Cadet Tilly - where does she hide all that hair? Clearly she has a scrunchie that's connected to the evil mushroom dimension. See Stamets above.

Sarek- is played by James Frain, who is always, always, always secretly evil.

Michael - never trusty Vulcans. Plus, I mean, mutineer.

Saru - doesn't like Lorca, doesn't say so to his face, probably informing on him behind his back.

Lt. Daft Punk - how can you even tell if it's the same person under there all the time? Could be a Klingon.

The two obvious Borg drones on the bridge - 'nuff said.

The replicator - you KNOW it's lying about the fat content of those burritos. And what about sodium, huh?

Admiral Cornwall  - worst excuse for a booty call ever. 

Dr. Wilson Cruz - You'd think he'd notice his boyfriend was possessed by an alien entity, wouldn't you?

Harcourt Fenton Mudd - I don't know, something about that guy. I think he's on the up and up.

[Charlesman]

13 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

Perhaps the Klingons developed or stole some sort of tech to make them look more 'human' to other 'aliens'

This was explicitly stated in the previous episode, when Lorca was in the prison. He complimented his Klingon captor on her command of human language, and she replied "I was genetically engineered to look human and was a spy inside the Federation for many years". 

[DrBriCa]

3 hours ago, that one guy said:

Sarek- is played by James Frain, who is always, always, always secretly evil.

And I love him for it. He does secretly evil so well!

[KimberStormer]

OK so Lorca's leadership style is just flirt extremely hard with everyone on his ship, yes?  He seriously looked like he was going to take Ash to bed right that minute several times during the episode, then he actually does take Admiral Lady to bed, and he's all "I did this for you" to Michael...dude is out of control.  And/or the writers are teasing ships like there's no tomorrow, because they thrive on the fear of death like true Klingons.  They will reap what they sow in fandom wars if they keep this up.

Getting more and more Star Trekky by the episode, so that's good.  I must resign myself to the strange conviction, shared by all Star Trek writers since DS9, that Vulcans,  once a progressive nerd's ideal, are now Always Space Racist and, good god, can't even come up with better names for things than "Logic Extremist".  Michael is more endearing doing her mentorship thing.  Stamets is more fun when he's totally stoned.  Ash is the most Federationy Klingon spy ever (no spoilers, just my guess).  I can't wait til he decides that it's more fun being on the Discovery than being a Klingon and working with jerks.

I do hate the opinionated computer with all my being.  But it's getting to be more like the group-of-fun-people-having-space-adventures, as we hope any Star Trek will be.

[MissLucas]

45 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I do hate the opinionated computer with all my being.

I'm sure the reason we don't see it on 'future' Star Trek shows is that it caused too many instances of replicator-rage. "Chocolate-chip muffins? Are you sure? There's a difference between snug and too tight."

[Unusual Suspect]

12 hours ago, starri said:

It happened on Enterprise.

Which was one of Enterprise's more odious offences, but ironically, makes Discovery fit better into it's current spot in the timeline. In many ways, if we ignore TOS, Discovery is a great Enterprise sequel.

[starri]

6 hours ago, 2727 said:

What was that piece of gear shown in closeup on Lorca's back in his quarters after Cornwell left? Was it a phaser?

It was a phaser.  It was showing him with the same kind of tension and PTSD that caused him to sleep with it under his pillow.

I'm still so highly amused by the chatty food slots.

[that one guy]

4 hours ago, DrBriCa said:

7 hours ago, that one guy said:

Sarek- is played by James Frain, who is always, always, always secretly evil.

And I love him for it. He does secretly evil so well!

Re-watching. He's not secretly evil. "Technically, we are not related." That's just straight up villainy.

[tpel]

8 hours ago, 2727 said:

Even if Lorca had outright sabotaged her shuttle to explode, it would only make him more intriguing to me. If my enjoyment of the show depended on him being an admirable role model, I would have already bailed. I love that he's mysterious and sketchy, and Isaacs is mesmerizing to watch.

I'm not so sanguine about him murdering a friend to protect his own self interest. He didn't quite do that, but the way it read on the screen, it almost seemed that way. Unless we think he's a klingon spy, which I don't, there's no way he could have had compelling evidence that the meeting was a trap. Yet he totally knew it. The audience knew it, because we watch a lot of Star Trek ;-)  Lorca knew it -- not 100%, but he would've bet his tribble on it -- because figuring out this kind of thing is like breathing to him. He's got the tactical instinct, apparently undiminished by his raging PTSD. And that's why only his ex-lover/old-friend-with-benefits is willing to call him on his crap: she's the only one that cares about him. The rest of the higher-ups in Starfleet (who we know from previous iterations of Star Trek are likely to be incompetent, evil, or both) probably realize that he is unstable, but he gets results. So they are happy to keep using him. Sure, it's a risk; he could snap in some dramatic and deadly way. But if he can keep his shit together for another few months, he might be instrumental in winning the war. 

Suppose Lorca told Cornwell, "Hey, I've got a bad feeling about this meeting . . ." That would have made him more likable, but it wouldn't be likely to change the outcome. She's now convinced that he's paranoid, so she would interpret his warning as more evidence of his impaired judgement. And he accurately assessed that she would be highly motivated to jump on any chance for peace. Thus, she would be almost certain to go anyway. That doesn't let him off the hook completely, as the reason he didn't say anything is because her capture is the outcome he wanted. Trying to stop her would have introduced at least some chance that he would succeed, and he didn't want that. Later, his "this-week-we-care-about-Starfleet-orders" response to going after her was chilling. Best case scenario: Starfleet gives him a quick go-ahead, Discovery rescues Cornwell, and Lorca is able to say, "Look, I just showed I can play by the book, and btw I just saved your life" and she relents about forcing him to step down from command. Pretty sure that's not going to happen. Dead Cornwell is more certain to not threaten his command than alive-and-grateful Cornwell is, so he'll do what he can to favor that outcome. Cold.

So why do I still care about him? Well, as 2727 pointed out, Isaacs is mesmerizing. And when faced with an outside threat, Lorca will defend his crew ably. And then there's this . . .

18 hours ago, steelyis said:

Lorca is manipulative, opportunistic and shady as hell, but I love how bemused he was at Stamets new attitude. Surly, borderline insubordinate Stamets he can handle, but Lorca had no idea how to deal with the easy going version and it was hilarious. And Jason Isaacs gives amazing WTF expressions.

He was also kind of awesome when he hung up on that Vulcan :-)

[CanadaPhil]

I want to see Lorca's backstory soooooooooooo bad.

This is a truly unique Star Fleet character that we have never quite seen in the "Trek Universe" before and for all the previously mentioned reasons, Isaacs is just bringing it week after week now. Just so damn good!

He is mesmerizing. When he is not speaking his eyes and facial expressions alone are filling in the narrative.

And even though we as the audience are aware of some of the darker undertones, he really is a Captain that inspires those around him. 

In my opinion the showrunners did a fantastic job of casting this series. All of the crew are really starting to gel and they play off and compliment each other very well. 

EDIT... I am troubled by the Admiral thing though. I really like the dynamic Cornwell brings to the story and I want to know more about her and Gabriel's past life. I hope we have not seen the last of her, but right now it's really hard to picture any kind of happy ending.

Edited October 24, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[LittleIggy]

Lorca through his girlfriend under the bus! Least he got laid first. ;-)

[Frozendiva]

10 hours ago, Charlesman said:

This was explicitly stated in the previous episode, when Lorca was in the prison. He complimented his Klingon captor on her command of human language, and she replied "I was genetically engineered to look human and was a spy inside the Federation for many years". 

I guess I missed that piece of dialogue. A lot of Klingons must have been also engineered to look more 'human'.

Maybe the Admiral will come back as a genetically engineered Klingon.

[that one guy]

5 minutes ago, Frozendiva said:

11 hours ago, Charlesman said:

This was explicitly stated in the previous episode, when Lorca was in the prison. He complimented his Klingon captor on her command of human language, and she replied "I was genetically engineered to look human and was a spy inside the Federation for many years". 

I guess I missed that piece of dialogue. A lot of Klingons must have been also engineered to look more 'human'.

Maybe the Admiral will come back as a genetically engineered Klingon.

I don't believe she did say that explicitly. It was implied. She said she came from a long line of spies, and languages are useful. She didn't state that she, or any of those spies, were genetically engineered to look human. They totally were, though. But it was just implied, not stated.

[Emily Thrace]

Its taken them 60 years but Star Trek finally has a female friendship that actually feels real. They talk workouts and hot guys and are awkward and funny and awesome. I know Star Trek had has female friendships before and they have tried I just can't remember it ever being this natural.  Dax and Kira always felt forced and were often used as a way to info dump about who they were dating.  It was always clear their scenes were written by men. B'lanna and Seven had some honest conversations but were always sisters and never really made it to friends. Janeway was close to both of them but the power differential always meant she was more of a mentor then a girlfriend.

I also like that pretty much everyone on the show is flawed and complicated. Lorca is a mess and he is all the more interesting for it.

[jzygayle]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

Its taken them 60 years but Star Trek finally has a female friendship that actually feels real. They talk workouts and hot guys and are awkward and funny and awesome. I know Star Trek had has female friendships before and they have tried I just can't remember it ever being this natural.  Dax and Kira always felt forced and were often used as a way to info dump about who they were dating.  It was always clear their scenes were written by men. B'lanna and Seven had some honest conversations but were always sisters and never really made it to friends. Janeway was close to both of them but the power differential always meant she was more of a mentor then a girlfriend.

I also like that pretty much everyone on the show is flawed and complicated. Lorca is a mess and he is all the more interesting for it.

TNG tried a bit with Troi and Dr. Crusher, but again, it was more info-dump and "men wrote this".  I mean, they're supposed to be such good friends, but there's the one episode where Crusher was shocked to see that Troi (or Troi shocked to see Crusher) had a standing date at the spa.  I mean, SERIOUSLY?  I am barely speaking to a couple women and I know they have standing spa appointments!

So yeah, the friendship with Michael and Tilly is nice to watch.

[CanadaPhil]

10 hours ago, tpel said:

. . .

He was also kind of awesome when he hung up on that Vulcan :-)

I think we will find that Vulcan extremists within the Federation hierarchy will be at the heart of leaks of information and other acts attempting to undermine Earth's ability to fight the Klingons.

I also find it a little strange that the powerful fleets of Vulcan and Andoria have apparently NOT come to the aid of Earth which is now under attack!???... the Federation Charter is also a collective mutual defence treaty is it not? There has been ZERO mention of any Federation "allies" coming to Earth's aid so far and they are over 7 months into the conflict!

And it also makes me wonder if we will ever see Disco's version of Andorians? I can do without a new version of 220lb insult hurling, smelly, man-pig Telerites, but given how the Klingons are portrayed in this I would luv to see what they do with Andorians. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by CanadaPhil