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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

S05.E07: Episode Seven

Corgi-ears

By Corgi-ears
in Episodes [V]

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Corgi-ears

Corgi-ears

That mise en abyme ending was fairly predictable, but it was almost worth it just for (1) the Emma Thompson-as-Bev joke, and (2) getting one last "urhmrgh" from Myra. Bye, show, and thanks for all the (Isla) Fish(er).

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whiporee

whiporee

I enjoy being right. 

That was a very nice ending. Would have liked to see Emma and Kenneth just for a flash, but as it was, it was great. I liked Carol and Helen getting together, and I even liked Morning being cast in the show.    I loved Matt's explanation as to why he passed, and I liked Helen and Carol int he bathroom. I even liked the giant poop. 

So great show, good ending, and now Sunday's a little less fun. 

  • Love 14
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RedMal

RedMal

My only real problem was that for some reason Morning was still with Merc. Like huh? That scene couple of episodes back was powerful but now it meant practically nothing.

Other than that, good episode and nice, yet somewhat predictable, ending. The season itself wasn't the strongest one, there were way too much filler and nonsense. But I'm gonna miss it.

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wendyg

wendyg

I think it's been established that Morning will do a *lot* to be on a good show with legs. Presumably including letting Merc talk her round.

I'm sad to see it go, but it was a good ending.

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iMonrey

iMonrey

So it appears a lot of people accurately predicted the ending but I still didn't much care for it. It was a little too spot-on, and of course it wouldn't have been on Showtime because Showtime wouldn't have The Box, so to have the actual opening credits  . . . I don't know, it kind of didn't make sense to me. And of course we'll never know if the show became a success. 

Overall I didn't think Season 5 was as strong as the previous two. I'm glad we got some closure but really I thought the strongest episode was the one where Matt's father died. 

I'll still miss it though. :-(

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ganesh

ganesh

I wish Matt had actually been an adult and talked about the problems with the script so Bev and Sean could make a decision to fix it and shop it around. Just because Matt didn't want to do it doesn't mean the production company couldn't produce the pilot. I get that he had to make a quick decision because it's pilot season, but it is for them too. 

I really liked Sean laying into Matt and then dropping, "you are your father" then Merc with the thumbs up. Even the llama got a close up! The people in the Box in the background looked bonkers too. 

I assume the show will be successful, so that's all I really wanted for Sean and Bev. 

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scrb

scrb

Great while it lasted, very under appreciated.

Someone else is going to have to do another show taking down Hollywood, given what's happened in the news the last couple of days.

Was a smart idea to have Brits losing their virginity in the TV game in Hollywood.

I guess it had to be half funded by the BBC to make it to air.

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amaranta

amaranta

I loved this little show and even though the ending was not a surprise it just felt right.  I don't think there was one character I didn't like; even Merk had his moments. 

Yes, I agree - it's time for a rewatch.

  • Love 3
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aemom

aemom

(edited)

I'll miss this show even though we hardly ever got to see it with short seasons and the huge delays in between.  The acting was great and I have a whole new appreciation for Matt Le Blanc's talent.

I don't know why, but I was really excited to see the Llama again, but sadly, no awesome faces.

It was on the nose, but it was the perfect ending.

Edited to add that the girl that Matt had the encounter with in the box, was still there and her box was filled with Nazis.  I would not be surprised if some sort of version of that show pops up for real one day.

Edited by AEMom
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iMonrey

iMonrey

I think it might have been funnier if Bev and Sean and managed to cast either David Schwimmer or Matthew Perry to play the main character in their version of "Episodes." Would have gone along with the whole meta-ending to the show.

  • Love 4
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slowpoked

slowpoked

(edited)

I'm going to miss this show!

So if I'm understanding the ending correctly, Isla Fisher was cast to be Carol and Morning was cast to be...Myra? Who was Morning supposed to be?

On 10/9/2017 at 5:17 PM, ganesh said:

I wish Matt had actually been an adult and talked about the problems with the script so Bev and Sean could make a decision to fix it and shop it around. Just because Matt didn't want to do it doesn't mean the production company couldn't produce the pilot. I get that he had to make a quick decision because it's pilot season, but it is for them too. 

I actually thought it was the first time Matt made sense when he finally broke down and told the two of them about the problems of the script. Yes, it wasn't mature that he avoided telling them on his own and was only forced to tell them when he got cornered. But I thought he made some good points on the script, the clincher being that when he finished it, he didn't really care about what happened to the characters. If the actors ended up not caring about the characters, surely the audience would not as well. I understood Matt/Bev's initial angry reaction, but when they finally calmed down and went through the script again, they actually ended up agreeing with Matt. It was a horrible script and maybe he was really doing them a favor by telling them it wasn't any good. 

Edited by slowpoked
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ganesh

ganesh

He could have done it sooner was my point. It was pilot season and he could have cost them a shot at fixing it and shooting it. 

I thought Morning was playing herself since she was actually on Pucks. 

  • Love 2
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RedMal

RedMal

Yeah, Morning was playing herself. Also, I was wondering how much of the show's version of Episodes is going to be "real". Is the narcissistic douchebag running the network going to be called Merc? Is the show they're hired to make going to be called Pucks? I mean, I don't see how Merc would let them use his name in such a way.

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Quote

I actually thought it was the first time Matt made sense when he finally broke down and told the two of them about the problems of the script. Yes, it wasn't mature that he avoided telling them on his own and was only forced to tell them when he got cornered. But I thought he made some good points on the script, the clincher being that when he finished it, he didn't really care about what happened to the characters.

Matt was the one who insisted they quit "The Opposite of Us" to write his pilot in the first place. He owed it to them to call them up and tell them he didn't like the script instead of avoiding them and leaving it up to his agent, and signing on to another show. He's supposed to be their friend. That's one shitty friend.

(Then again, that's been the overriding character trait of Matt since Day 1. He doesn't really have any friends, and it's easy to see why.)

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

1 hour ago, RedMal said:

 Also, I was wondering how much of the show's version of Episodes is going to be "real".

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well.  Part of the charm and humor of Episodes has been watching Matt LeBlanc play a version of himself that is very fictionalized.  But the Matt LeBlanc that Sean and Beverly are basing a series around has actually DONE all the shitty things that we've been watching.   Do they make fictional Matt even more over-the-top or are they basically writing a documentary comedy series?  It is a bit perplexing.  :-)

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lucindabelle

lucindabelle

Perfection!

 

I was a dramaturg (now I'm an arts journalist) and Matt's assessment was surprisingly erudite, full of absolutely the write terms.

After the few glimpses of "Pucks" that we saw, I'm not surprised: Bev and Sean had been doing just above hack work.

The whole "procedural" thing at the pitch had me groaning.

I loved when Sean suddenly realized WHY Matt was apologizing!

I loved Carol and Helen reuniting. Because of the timing I was a teeny bit worried that that too was Helen being a Hollywood type but I'm relieved to see it was REAL. Bev mad an impact on her.

Happy endings for all.

Rewatch time.

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ganesh

ganesh

I have to disagree about them being hacks. Lyman's Boys was a big hit in the UK and they were going to adapt it to a US audience. The network massively interfered with them every step of the way right from the start when Matt suggested he be a hockey coach, something neither Bev nor Sean new something about. Every week they were getting network notes; changing the focus to the kids, etc., and they were barely keeping their heads above water. 

Just because they wrote one subpar script under a time crunch doesn't mean it couldn't have been punched up and shot as a pilot. Still, they were under the constraint of writing for Matt, essentially. Once they were able to write 'unfettered' they came up with 'Episodes,' which looked like it was going to be hit. 

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wendyg

wendyg

The best writers sometimes write stinkers. Throughout the production of PUCKS we saw the network interfere: casting Matt, insisting the librarian be straight, shifting the emphasis to the boys (one of whom was a "breakout star"), etc. THE OPPOSITE OF US was the subject of a bidding war because everyone loved it so much and is now also being ruined by (vengeful) network interference and a diabolical (English usage) showrunner. Matt has shown before he has a shrewd understanding of the business and of scripts (at least in terms of what works for him). But you know, it's like William Goldman is famous for saying: "Nobody knows anything." Could they have fixed it? Maybe. (Not sure the time was the issue: they wrote it in something like three weeks, which seems about par for being given the go-ahead to turning in the first draft.) They can certainly still try. But then this came to mind in the meantime.

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Quote

I have to disagree about them being hacks. Lyman's Boys was a big hit in the UK and they were going to adapt it to a US audience.

They're probably not "hacks," per se, but I did start to wonder this season if maybe they're not entirely what they're cracked up to be. We saw the audition scene for Lyman in the pilot episode (Richard Griffiths played the role in the UK version) and - it wasn't all that funny. It was just very British. I think it's mostly about the line readings. Assuming it's a half-hour show, they only wrote about 24 episodes total (Sean told Matt they did six episodes per season and did four seasons). It's entirely possible Sean and Bev aren't really up to the task of tackling American television, and that the success of Lyman's Boys  had more to do with the actor playing the lead role than the writing itself.

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xaxat

xaxat

On 10/12/2017 at 2:39 PM, iMonrey said:

They're probably not "hacks," per se, but I did start to wonder this season if maybe they're not entirely what they're cracked up to be. We saw the audition scene for Lyman in the pilot episode (Richard Griffiths played the role in the UK version) and - it wasn't all that funny. It was just very British. I think it's mostly about the line readings. Assuming it's a half-hour show, they only wrote about 24 episodes total (Sean told Matt they did six episodes per season and did four seasons). It's entirely possible Sean and Bev aren't really up to the task of tackling American television, and that the success of Lyman's Boys  had more to do with the actor playing the lead role than the writing itself.

ITA. Showtime has the premier on YouTube and the audition scene wasn't funny at all. 

Pucks wasn't good, but it was far more commercially viable than Beverly and Sean's initial vision.

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Nordly Beaumont

Nordly Beaumont

I just re-watched the finale. The bathroom scene is so great (especially watching it a second time knowing Helen is sincere). I loved how strong Carol was, not letting Helen start the conversation but jumping in right away and unloading what she wanted to say.  I usually don't like puke sounds, but they took it so far - it sounded like she threw up a swimming pool! It made it funny, not gross. Bev hovering around the door was great. Loved both Helen and Carol admitting "Carol" was "a little slow." And Kathleen Rose Perkins is so amazingly funny! She can make just taking a breath hilarious. Man I hope she gets something great, I see her in small parts now and then, but she deserves so much more.

I thought Beverly looked prettier than ever somehow (lighting?) I caught a small moment that I missed the first time. When Shaun was yelling at Matt on the stage, Beverly kept looking at Matt like "Yeah, take that!" until Shaun said "You don't need to play your father, you are your father" Beverly looked at Shaun like she thought he had gone too far. So I guess there is "a little love" there!

And now I just want to see a show where Andy Button and Myra pitch shows about gypsies and succubi!

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txhorns79

txhorns79

Quote

Yeah, Morning was playing herself. Also, I was wondering how much of the show's version of Episodes is going to be "real". Is the narcissistic douchebag running the network going to be called Merc? Is the show they're hired to make going to be called Pucks? I mean, I don't see how Merc would let them use his name in such a way.

It made me think a little of the second season of The Comeback where Valerie is on a new tv series playing a version of herself that supposedly is all about making the television series that was the basis for the first season of the show. 

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AAEBoiler

AAEBoiler

(edited)

Now that is how you do a series finale!!! I don't care if some thought it was predictable but it was incredibly satisfying to the fans of the show and contrasts greatly with the "lump of fuckery" that was the series finale of "How I Met Your Mother". #NeverForget

Edited by AAEBoiler
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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

(edited)
On 10/12/2017 at 1:39 PM, iMonrey said:

They're probably not "hacks," per se, but I did start to wonder this season if maybe they're not entirely what they're cracked up to be. 

That's where I am. And I admire Crane and Klarik for doing a bit of self-reflection here. C & K are obviously talented--they created Episodes, among other obvious accomplishments!--yet even talented people fail, all the while being guilty of "reading their reviews" and concluding quite wrongly that they can do no wrong. (Until reality bites them in the ass, if they have enough character to realize that's what's happening instead of blaming it on the system, fate, or other people.) I believe we're meant to understand that Sean and Bev are good, and capable of greatness, but capable of mediocrity too, with no one to blame but themselves. And that's Crane and Klarik publicly fessing up that sometimes, their own sh*t stinks. They sure came up roses this time, though.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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eljaykid

eljaykid

I just finished binge watching on Netflix and loved this show.  Over the course of the series I really came to appreciate the friendship between Carol and Bev and the two actresses were amazing.  It's not often that the female characters are the equal of the male characters.

As for the ending, I was fine with it.  In my perfect world Carol would not have gotten back with Helen (Helen went too far) and Elliott Salad would have asked her to lead the network.  I would have also liked to see Tim get his comeuppance and let Bev & Shaun have 2 successful shows.  I like to think that Helen came to her senses and did just that.

I will really miss this show!

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TaylorMade

TaylorMade

I also just finished watching the show for the first time.

My only issue with the predicted ending was that I thought that Andrew Lesley created a show in S2 or S3 about 2 British screenwriters who come to America.   That's why I didn't believe that the the final show was actually going to be 'Episodes'  I thought Andrew already did it.

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wendyg

wendyg

It was a somewhat malicious suggestion he made to Sean and Beverly during the period when they were split up, that they should write a sitcom about a couple who came to Hollywood to write sitcoms and then split up. It wasn't the show he was running.

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DianeDobbler

DianeDobbler

I just saw it on Netflix. I liked the ending. I thought everybody, except maybe Matt, was more likable this season. Shaun and Beverly seemed secure in their marriage and comfortable in their skin, and a lot more ready to tell people they disliked to piss off. So their experience at work seemed less frustrating, because they felt less trapped. They appeared to have a fairly comfortable relationship with Helen, and to have found their rhythm. Even the show they were working on, they had no problem taking the piss out of that guy when he was being extra-wankery. Even though Merc two-timed Carol with Morning, his personality was more tolerable than in previous seasons - I never enjoyed the character the way the show appeared to enjoy him, but I accepted him well enough at the end.

Have to say the scandal they cooked up for Matt - him and that woman in the box- was one of the all time skankiest, scuzziest things a television writer has ever conceived. I totally believed it but God did I need brain bleach. 

Helen appeared to have mellowed in the off-season. I didn't know what had brought her down a couple of notches or twenty when this season came around, but it set up well for her reconciliation with Carol, which felt right and played well.

Emma Thompson and Kenneth Branagh are too old to play Shaun and Beverly. Maybe Kate Winslet and Jonny Lee Miller or Geoffrey Butler or something.

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wendyg

wendyg

The one thing I didn't like about the ending was that I really wanted Carol to end up running the network. I didn't find it particularly satisfying to have her wind up (effectively) married with a baby, given how good she was at her job.

  • Love 4
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stcroix

stcroix

Nothing to do and feeling so bored earlier this week so I was looking for something to watch and discovered Episodes.  Wow!!  I have been binge watching this every night and LOVING it!  So sad to see it end, maybe even a little depressed...  I love these actors and the characters they play so well.  I'll force myself to wait a few weeks then I know I'll be binge watching this one again. 

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