S06.E01: Fallout

[Trisha]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

I was so fixated on WHY ARE YOU WEARING THAT SHIRT AND THOSE SHOES that I nearly missed the OOH FELICITY IS HIDING A SECRET FROM OLIVER AGAIN anvils dropping everywhere - though as I'll note in a bit, there was another reason for that.

Which scene did you get that vibe from? I didn't pick up on this at all. She just seemed tentative about William (I love that Oliver's the one who's all in for family time and she's the one holding back, btw. That's a nice bit of expectation reversal.)

Overall, I thought it was a much better start than The Flash, but weaker than the last two season premieres. I appreciate that they threw in some lines about fan fave characters (Tommy, Donna) and I assume we'll continue to get flashbacks to the island fallout in future eps. But everything felt way too rushed -- and did I miss something or was the brilliant plan to avoid the bombs just to...hide in the plane? WTF?

I'm very curious to know if the Dinah/Diggle vibes are coming from the actors or the writers or the director? My sister and I were texting back and forth during the show and in the first DD/JD scene she said I was reading too much into it, and then there was the lingering shot of her hand on his chest and she was like "Oh! Ok, then." 

[insomniadreams88]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I've read a couple takes on this now.  I thought she seemed still very injured when that dude showed up and offered her his hand.  So I am thinking she was never dead.  I read somewhere else that they thought she was only pretending to have been hurt.  And now the idea of being resurrected.  

I'm still thinking she was shot and was then rescued and taken somewhere to tend to her injury but that the director and the acting by KC were so poor that it wasn't clear.  I could have sworn she was trying to grimace in pain as she got up.  

Yeah, that was just ... weird? I guess maybe somewhere in all that leather, there could be Kevlar, so she could have just been faking it? But I honestly couldn't tell if she was really injured and when the person arrived she just popped up, "hey, all better!" or faking it until the person got there. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, that was a MAJOR disappointment. As much as I snark on this show and complain about how Oliver is Batman-lite, I do like the character interactions. But this? Samantha's death was on par with how what'sherface, Michael Corleone's daughter in Godfather III died: Gun shot through the chest, looks down, up "Dad?" falls to her death.

8 hours ago, Delphi said:

Ugh,  there is finally proof that Samantha was too dumb to live.   But Ollie finding Thea did work for me,  but solely for the primal groan of misery that Stephen uttered with his hands over his face.   People criticize Stephen's abilities but really what he lacks in dialogue he more than makes up in body language. 

 

Episode as a whole though,  meh. 

I prefer TSTL (Too Stoopid To Live). And yes, Amell is very good at conveying emotion through facial expressions and body language. His holding Tommy and telling him sorry in Season one ender still guts me.

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I've read a couple takes on this now.  I thought she seemed still very injured when that dude showed up and offered her his hand.  So I am thinking she was never dead.  I read somewhere else that they thought she was only pretending to have been hurt.  And now the idea of being resurrected.  

I'm still thinking she was shot and was then rescued and taken somewhere to tend to her injury but that the director and the acting by KC were so poor that it wasn't clear.  I could have sworn she was trying to grimace in pain as she got up.  

What did Quentin shoot her with? Blanks? Because I didn't see any blood anywhere on her. She gasped awake as if being revived from the Lazarus Pit. Katie continues to be an awful, awful, wooden actress. As if smirking and swaying in a drunken walk with make-up pancaked over her face is supposed to make her look kewl and dangerous?

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think the Geek Culture is just too mainstream for there to be an age where it's no longer age appropriate.  He's probably too old to play with action figures but never to collect them.  And he'd be the perfect age for tshirts and when he has a key, then I could see him having a mini Flash (or mini Atom would be more appropriate) for his key chain just like so many adults.  And superhero stuff in video games has no age limits.  Is it just because it's a backpack?  If it was a giant picture of the flash in his suite, I'd have thought it looked juvenile but the more subtle nod with the little lightning bolts I thought made it ageless.   

And I also take the Flash backpack as a direct jab at Oliver.  William is choosing his old favorite over the GA. 

Plus, if this was world where there actually was a dude like the Flash, it soooo wouldn't be limited to children fanboying over him.  

Um. I have a Batman throw, pillow plush, and on my list is to get a Batman backpack. And I'm clearly older than William, heh.

Regarding the bolded--reminded me of Smallville's series finale, as Chloe was reading to her son the story of how Clark "became" Superman, kid had arrows in his room! of the Green Arrow kind! Made me smirk.

The ONLY good thing about this episode, aside from Felicity looking gorgeous and her outfits, which I want--was the return of Raisa. Kid who plays William SUCKS as all get out and that shaky finger pointing at Oliver to indicate Oliver was "The Bad Man" was so eye roll worthy. For me, this is how the premieres rated in terms of good premieres: 

1. Flash
2. Legends of Tomorrow
3. Arrow
4. Supergirl

[Delphi]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think the Geek Culture is just too mainstream for there to be an age where it's no longer age appropriate.  He's probably too old to play with action figures but never to collect them.  And he'd be the perfect age for tshirts and when he has a key, then I could see him having a mini Flash (or mini Atom would be more appropriate) for his key chain just like so many adults.  And superhero stuff in video games has no age limits.  Is it just because it's a backpack?  If it was a giant picture of the flash in his suite, I'd have thought it looked juvenile but the more subtle nod with the little lightning bolts I thought made it ageless.   

And I also take the Flash backpack as a direct jab at Oliver.  William is choosing his old favorite over the GA. 

Plus, if this was world where there actually was a dude like the Flash, it soooo wouldn't be limited to children fanboying over him.  

This.   Considering the majority of us here all have Arrow and Felicity funkos on our desks and I have no plans to get rid of my Doctor Who decor or Batman messenger bag I think we could let the flash backpack slide. 

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, that was just ... weird? I guess maybe somewhere in all that leather, there could be Kevlar, so she could have just been faking it? But I honestly couldn't tell if she was really injured and when the person arrived she just popped up, "hey, all better!" or faking it until the person got there. 

She told Quentin that he should've aimed for her heart (or something along those lines), so I'm guessing he didn't hit her anywhere major and she just survived the gunshot wound to her shoulder or wherever. 

[mrspidey]

I wish they'd just stop trying to reinvent Thea. It's been pretty obvious last season that they don't really know what to do with her. 

Now they're stalling by having her being comatouse, probably followed by text-book soap opera amnesia after she wakes up. 

 

Just put her back in the damn red archer suit. It least that one worked. 

[insomniadreams88]

I just rewatched the episode.

I still can't believe I liked Rene the most out of the B-team. (Minus the blondie comment.)

Wait, Dinah was promoted to Lieutenant? I missed that the first time around. That seems fast considering she just came to Star City less than a year ago.

The BS walking through the SCPD and bombing it was worse this time around (so, uh, third time watching it because it was a sneak peek?). I didn't think that was possible.

There's definitely a weird vibe between Dinah and Diggle, not sure if it's necessarily romantic, but it's there. I think it's because of JH's acting in those scenes?

Oliver finding Thea on the island is just as confusing. Dead? No. Wanted it to seem that way to draw something out after revealing almost everyone else was alive pretty much immediately? Definitely.

I feel like there's something missing between Oliver and Slade between the island FBs and the present-day hospital scene. It just feels off?

[Angel12d]

42 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I still can't believe I liked Rene the most out of the B-team. (Minus the blondie comment.)

About me. I actually thought the scene where he hugs Oliver was very cute. I appreciate that they've toned him down since the early part of s5. (With Zoe potentially coming back, I wonder if Rene and Oliver are going to bond over their kids?) 

Dinah, on the other hand, was...IDK. Smug? Bossy? Kinda rude? I think WM mentioned about her "bringing the confidence" but I found her kinda off putting tbh. And those Diggle/Dinah vibes were definitely there but I'm pretty sure it's not intentional. I think it's just JH trying to smoulder with everyone, haha. It was the same last season.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Angel12d

[tv echo]

Maybe watching S5 has lowered my expectations, but I actually liked this premiere overall, despite its flaws. I would've liked more flashback scenes of how everyone survived and less scenes of William and Black Siren. William was better than last season but still only tolerable in small doses. (Also, I remember being in the 4th grade and having a better vocabulary than William.) Black Siren was... just awful. The survivors' solution of just taking refuge in the plane seemed a little too pat. It was also weird that Slade took off on his own but then apparently returned to look for survivors. Btw, whatever happened to that Boomerang guy?

Of course, I loved the little Olicity moments. I also liked that they apparently had an off-screen talk about their relationship over the hiatus now that William was living with Oliver (though it would've been nice to see that scene). I also loved all the Diggle scenes.

I hate to say it, but I do see some chemistry between Dinah and Diggle (Black Canary, Homewrecker?). When they were off on their search mission together, they were having a heart-to-heart conversation about each hiding a secret, and it looked for a moment that Dinah was going to move in on Diggle. 

I'm hoping that by season's end, Quentin will realize that Black Siren is definitely not his daughter. 

I think the guy in the helicopter at the end was either Cayden James or a new Big Bad. I definitely think that Cayden is the one who gave Channel 52 the photo of Oliver as the GA. We already know that Helix has amazing satellite surveillance.

In case you're wondering, opening credits order was:  SA, DR, WH, EBR, EK, RG, JH (or JH, RG), followed by "with Katie Cassidy" and then "and Paul Blackthorne."

 

Since Michael Emerson is going to be a villain on Arrow this year, I'm convinced that Lian Yu is actually the island on Lost. And he's playing an AU version of Ben Linus. That's how Black Siren was able to come back to life. If Oliver had just left Samantha's body on the island, then she would've come back to life as well. ;) (joking)

ETA: I agree with whoever said upthread that so much was left out of this episode in terms of what happened on the island because of MG's book, Arrow: Fatal Legacies, that's coming out in January.

Edited October 15, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Maybe watching S5 has lowered my expectations, but I actually liked this premiere overall, despite its flaws.

Same, I really liked this episode in comparison to 501. I think it's mainly because there was a little more "hopefulness" to this premiere compared to last year's (hopeful being a weird word with Diggle's issues, Lance's issues, BS in general, Samantha dead, etc.) in terms of where the story is going for each of the characters, or at least that there was a snippet of set-up for basically all of the characters (not much for Felicity and Curtis, but I'm guessing 602 or so will bring more into that, and otherwise Felicity still even had a bit of set-up for dealing with Oliver and William). It was messy and stuffed and rushed, but had a bunch of slow burn that I do like from Arrow.

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I think the guy in the helicopter at the end was Cayden James or a new Big Bad. I definitely think that Cayden is the one who gave Channel 53 the photo of Oliver as the GA. We already know that Helix has amazing satellite surveillance.

 I'm thinking towards James too, especially since BS stole one of Curtis' experimental T-Spheres.

[quarks]

If I had any remaining questions about Bamford as a director, this confusion about "FELICITY IS HIDING SOMETHING" would answer it. It's directly called out in the script in an early scene, with Curtis/Echo Kellum drawing attention to it:

As Felicity enters with bags of food, Curtis notes that Felicity missed him taking down a missile, ending that with a "because...." and spreading his hands wide, indicating that Felicity did not tell Team Arrow where she was, or why she wasn't on comms at that point and was only now returning to the Arrow Cave.  Arrow also made a point of showing that Team Arrow had time to fight off bad guys, change back into normal clothing, and find the folder with Oliver's speech, all before Felicity returned with the fast food that they were apparently expecting - thus suggesting that she had been either at the Arrow Cave or on comms earlier, before vanishing.

Felicity initially dodges the question, handing out the bags of food, before explaining that she had to put her mother on a plane back to Vegas - a nice note that Donna hasn't been killed off by any DC villains, yet. She looks specifically at Oliver, not Curtis - the person who asked the question - while saying this. Oliver accepts this - I think, given this and other scenes, that the episode was meant to suggest that Oliver was so distracted by fatherhood that he was off his game here and elsewhere, something else that didn't quite come across in the episode, but I digress. Rene does not - he looks skeptical; an eyebrow slightly goes up.

And well he should.  This is the same show that had Felicity juggling a retail job and interacting with her mother with tracking down bad guys. The only times Felicity has not been around for a mission have been when she was ordered out of the Arrow Cave by Oliver for whatever reason,  over on Flash, or....DUN DUN DUN!.... working with Helix last season. 

Unfortunately, Team Arrow is grouped incorrectly here - it means that when the camera finally moves back towards Oliver, Rene and Diggle are in the background, instead of Curtis - thus robbing the audience both of the chance to see Curtis' initial reaction - the character who knows about Felicity's connection with Helix, knows about Donna, and knows that while yeah, the "needing to sedate her" excuse was probable as far as that went, he should have been aware that Felicity was sending her mother back to Vegas. He wasn't.  But instead of seeing that, we see Oliver - who beyond the distraction of fatherhood issues, also clearly doesn't want to push Felicity too much, as we see a few seconds later; Diggle, who, as the episode will later reveal, is suffering from PTSD (and possible hearing issues; the episode wasn't entirely clear on this point) and thus having a problem perceiving things; and Rene, who hasn't met Donna on screen, and thus arguably could just be reacting to the whole need to sedate a parent - or could just be regarding Felicity with skepticism/hostility, given the way their conversation started in this scene.   

So not only does the removal of Curtis from this shot remove the impact of Felicity's little fib here (and once again disservice Curtis as a character), it also fails to highlight that both Oliver and Diggle are having problems right now, something that helped rob Slade's later "You can't be a father AND the Green Arrow" speech of its impact (it didn't help, of course, that we've been hearing that same line for several seasons now, and some of us just heard it from Kara/Supergirl earlier this week). 

Grouping and camera angles/movement generally come from the director. Just noting.  It didn't help that during Felicity's "Vegas" comment, for some completely unknown reason, the camera allows Oliver to block a good 25% of the screen to the right - leaving Felicity awkwardly framed. I have no idea what anyone was thinking here, since there were other ways to get Felicity into a medium shot, without having a weird blocking like that. Arrow is usually much better at proper framing, but I suspect that shots like these, which were all over the episode, help explain some of the "meh" responses that I'm seeing on this forum: it's difficult to get emotionally involved with characters when they aren't framed properly to drag viewers into their point of view. I know that on occasion Arrow likes to use the camera to give us the character viewpoint - but nobody is standing behind Oliver at this point, so there's no viewpoint to give. The very next shots are all equally awkwardly framed, even though everyone is standing in one of Arrow's very very favorite shooting spots, one they use so often I'm half convinced that they have glued a camera to the ground there [they haven't] and one which previously has shown some beautiful framing, highlighting both the characters and the background. The art department even clearly visually designed that part of the set so that the camera could constantly remind us that HEY OLIVER IS ALSO THE GREEN ARROW DID YOU NOTICE THIS only to have Bamford leave out the costume stands in one frame and cut them midway through in another.  It's possible that the idea here was to try to use the camera to convince viewers that something was off with Team Arrow, but not only is something always off with Team Arrow, so we don't really need to be told that, the framing came across as careless/quickly shot, rather than deliberate, leaving me with the impression that nobody knew how to shoot this. 

To sum up, bad direction.

Moving on, this scene then continues with the camera dropping to the floor for some odd reason - I guess to give us EXCITING CAMERA ANGLE or to remind us that Felicity and Oliver are at the bottom and can only climb up from here, something not supported by the script, but let's all try to move on. We then get this:

1. Most of Team Arrow takes off towards the back, instead of through the elevator - presumably to remind us that the Arrow Cave has a lot of entrances making it remarkably easy for someone like, say, Black Siren to just waltz in whenever she feels like it, but also incidentally pointing out just how awkward the earlier grouping was.  Felicity yells at them for not being subtle. I yell at the script for feeling the need to tell me that Team Arrow wants Oliver and Felicity back together. 

2. Oliver: Do you think there's enough for three?

Felicity: Oh, I already ate. Unless you're asking if you think now is a good time - do you need a buffer, or -

Oliver: I don't need a buffer. I need some company. I know we talked about it - he's getting used to me and it might be a little weird -

Felicity: I mean, confusing, right, for him, for us, for me, for you.  [Pause.]  Just not tonight. Another night.

Oliver: Promise?

Felicity (beaming):  Promise.

Oliver: Ok.

Oliver takes off towards the elevator, so the camera can linger on Felicity's reaction: sigh, pout, disappointed look. 

The implications are pretty clear here - Felicity wants to say yes - but she has other plans, and can't.

Incidentally, and this just now occurred to me - Team Arrow was running around in the dark shooting bad guys up, suggesting that this scene is presumably at least after 10 pm, probably later, and yet Felicity still thinks this kid will want a burger and fries by the time Oliver gets back. Which turns out to be true! Even though a later scene in this episode suggests that the kid does in fact have some sort of bedtime that can only be broken for sports games on non school nights. When is this kid's bedtime, Arrow? And I ask again, Samantha, what were you thinking?

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, quarks said:

Felicity initially dodges the question, handing out the bags of food, before explaining that she had to put her mother on a plane back to Vegas - a nice note that Donna hasn't been killed off by any DC villains, yet. She looks specifically at Oliver, not Curtis - the person who asked the question - while saying this. Oliver accepts this - I think, given this and other scenes, that the episode was meant to suggest that Oliver was so distracted by fatherhood that he was off his game here and elsewhere, something else that didn't quite come across in the episode, but I digress. Rene does not - he looks skeptical; an eyebrow slightly goes up.

 

Oliver takes off towards the elevator, so the camera can linger on Felicity's reaction: sigh, pout, disappointed look.

The implications are pretty clear here - Felicity wants to say yes - but she has other plans, and can't.

I don't think Felicity was dodging the question. I think it's just that it was an awkward way for them to have the "Felicity is still alive!" reveal drawn out just a bit longer - walking into the bunker instead of on comms - and to get a Donna mention in since they haven't mentioned her in relation to Felicity since season 4. (The only time she was mentioned last season was in relation to Lance.) 

And I don't think Felicity had other plans. I think it's just that she wanted to go (clearly disappointed with that pout), but she's unsure how to handle being in William's life since he just lost his mother and a kid is a new element for everyone. Oliver's still struggling to be his father. The premiere didn't even establish if William has met anyone but Oliver or if the kid's just going to school and then home and that's it. It's just weird.

I think it's all just a matter of Arrow wanting to utilize a five month time jump but also wanting to drag out some things, like Oliver and William's relationship, Oliver and Felicity's relationship, Felicity and William's relationship, etc. 

[ComicFan777]

I don't think that Felicity had other plans and that's why she didn't go to dinner with Oliver and William.  I get the impression that she's having a hard time knowing when is the right time to try to fit into Oliver and William's life as Oliver's girlfriend - as much as she would love to spend time with them, she wouldn't want to intrude when William hasn't even really accepted Oliver as his father yet.

Edited October 13, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Balaclava]

Maybe something to do with her new company? Not necessarily a darker secret 

[tv echo]

43 minutes ago, quarks said:

As Felicity enters with bags of food, Curtis notes that Felicity missed him taking down a missile, ending that with a "because...." and spreading his hands wide, indicating that Felicity did not tell Team Arrow where she was, or why she wasn't on comms at that point and was only now returning to the Arrow Cave.  Arrow also made a point of showing that Team Arrow had time to fight off bad guys, change back into normal clothing, and find the folder with Oliver's speech, all before Felicity returned with the fast food that they were apparently expecting - thus suggesting that she had been either at the Arrow Cave or on comms earlier, before vanishing.

One transcriber quotes Curtis as saying, "You totally missed me redirecting a ballistic missile b-t-dubs." And when I rewatched the episode, it sounded like he was saying "b-t-dubs" (slang for "by the way"). Maybe the script was changed during filming?

(Video posted by Hunter)

Edited October 13, 2017 by tv echo

[Angel12d]

Interesting. I never really took that moment as Felicity hiding something? I just thought she was unsure about her place with William and how to move forward with that. And her pout/disappointment was because she really did want to have dinner with them and she's maybe a little annoyed that she's holding herself back?

It'll be interesting to see if she actually does have a secret.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I took that scene exactly like @Angel12d

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm confused. I thought back when Katie Cassidy left it was because she was a terrible actress and people hated her. But now she's back for good? Why bother killing off Laurel then? 

[Delphi]

19 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I'm confused. I thought back when Katie Cassidy left it was because she was a terrible actress and people hated her. But now she's back for good? Why bother killing off Laurel then? 

Pretty sure the cw made them bring her back. 

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Pretty sure the cw made them bring her back. 

No one could watch that acting and think they need more of that. I refuse to believe that.

I thought something was off in that Felicity scene but I couldn't figure out if it was poor direction/writing or not. I know which one I'm hoping for.

[Cleanqueen]

I took it as her wanting to be with them but still somehow feeling a bit hesitant. I think seeing that Oliver is having issues is what's making her not be totally ready in meeting him as well.

I am actually pretty excited for their scenes together, I want to see what their dynamic will be.

[Cekrypton1]

What? Someone broke into the the secret Arrowlair/bunker? What a gamechanger--that certainly ups the levels of BS' intelligence and villainy. How will Team Arrow every be able to take down someone of that skill level?

[arjumand]

I'm seriously underwhelmed by this.

So much Dinah (who I don't give a crap about, one way or the other)  - so many scenes of: Dinah meets Laurel! Camera draws back and starts circling! LET THEM FIGHT!

I found the flashbacks both annoying and confusing, and wish they'd gone with a more linear "This is how they got off the island" structure.

And William's weirdness and annoyance has reached new levels. Seriously, he's supposed to be 12? Really? Which 12-year old goes on and on about "the bad man"? Oh, I get it - that's so at the end we can have the stinger of "Guess what, it's Oliver! Tee hee, aren't we clever?"

No. It's just really, really stupid.

And I don't know if it's just the one I watched, but the sound was really low. Like, "we didn't pay the sound guy" low. And then, out of many inexplicable acting choices, we had a number of the cast doing the tough guy whisper. I expected someone like Curtis to spend most of the episode saying "WHY IS EVERYONE WHISPERING? WHAT'S GOING ON? ARE WE EXPECTING AN AVALANCHE?"

At first, Dinah was the only one I could understand (I've had a long day, and I didn't feel like putting headphones on), then she started hissing her dialogue too.

Dear Quentin, I love you a lot. But, for the record, couldn't give a fuck about Laurel, whether it's real Laurel, fake Laurel, Earth 2 Laurel, undead Laurel, etc. I DO NOT CARE.

Finally, is the entire SCPD made of stupid? That is all.

[tennisgurl]

At least I like Black Canary more than Laurel. 

I was so excited to get a brief Tommy reference! 

[DeadZeus]

2 things... Where did that scene go where Green Arrow dodges the knife attack from behind? It was featured in MULTIPLE trailers and it looked so slick and smooth, the aired scene looked really disjointed... He's suddenly fighting that dude out of nowhere...

And after 5 years of being Arrow/GA, he suddenly makes this mistake of being hoodless/maskless out in the field? Feels like a lame way to expose Oliver. But i guess Helix was behind the exposure somehow?

 

Cool action scenes though, but again too much hand to hand combat for my tatste, the best action scenes are when there are a nice mix of both. But this still follows the same formula over and over...  a couple of arrows at the start of the fight and then pure hand to hand... no mixing.

But besides that great action scenes! hope it stays consistent now!

I swear if we see no GA for a few episodes cuz of the exposure again this season... S5 had ALOT of episodes with no GA in them, hated those.

Edited October 13, 2017 by DeadZeus

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I'm confused. I thought back when Katie Cassidy left it was because she was a terrible actress and people hated her. But now she's back for good? Why bother killing off Laurel then? 

KC left the show because the EPs decided they had run out of storyline for LL and killed off the character. KC is back on the show because (according to interviews) the EPs said they thought she'd play a good villain. Neither of which has anything to do with the audience's opinion-- "she was a terrible actress and people hated her"-- of KC. Contrary to popular opinion, fans aren't in charge of hiring and firing of actors on shows.

[popgoesculture]

I took the Felicity scene also as her being hesitant regarding her place with Oliver and William. I don't know that the writers are clever enough to keep a secret without being like PSST HEY THEY'RE KEEPING A SECRET, like with Dinah and Quentin -- and again, still not sure if he shot BS or how she came back to life. But I also was feeling motion sickness from Bamford's directing (if I don't have to look up Stephen Amell's nose again, I would be happy), who actually didn't do well with the actions scenes as well. 

Is anyone else really tired of the time jumps? I feel like the big jumps are never that successful. The only one that worked for me was after season 1, because it made sense that Oliver ran away and also doesn't drastically change the different relationships on the show, unlike every other season premiere time jump.

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

The implications are pretty clear here - Felicity wants to say yes - bu

Huh, I read this as Felicity hesitating because she wasn't quite sure about her relationship with Oliver, based on her babbling this part "Felicity: I mean, confusing, right, for him, for us, for me, for you.  [Pause.]  Just not tonight. Another night." 

This is also why I don't think she and Oliver are together-together yet. They were still both very tentative in their touching, none of the ease they had back at the beginning of S4. 

As much as I dislike last night's episode I did enjoy this bit of nonverbal communication between Felicity, Diggle and Oliver. The way Digg looked at Felicity, then at Oliver (who shyly looked away) is very cute. 

 

[ComicFan777]

From Felicity's:
"I know we talked about it and that he's getting used to me and it might be a little weird to...I mean, confusing, right, for him...for us...for me...for you."

I take it as Oliver and Felicity are dating, but they are keeping it low-key and haven't really officially announced it to William yet because he is still settling in.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't think they are together-together either because of that comment about the guys not being subtle about making themselves scarce and Oliver replying that they haven't improved during the summer. So I took it as they are all aware Oliver and Felicity are in love and ready to be in a relationship again as soon as the time is right (as soon as they find a way to handle being together with William in the mix) and they are waiting for that to happen. So the team was giving them privacy in case they needed that moment alone and they were finally ready. I think Oliver is and Felicity is still a bit insecure about how to deal with things.

[lemotomato]

38 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

As much as I dislike last night's episode I did enjoy this bit of nonverbal communication between Felicity, Diggle and Oliver. The way Digg looked at Felicity, then at Oliver (who shyly looked away) is very cute. 

 

Unsaid: "You guys can go ahead and make out but please don't have sex in the bunker."

[tangerine95]

The episode was underwhelming and I expected that tbh so no big surprise because based on the promo it was going to focus on stuff I hated or didn't care about.It was still way better than the season 5 premiere and no one was a robot version of themselves so I'm fine with it lol

I really expected them to drag out the reveals of Felicity and Digg being alive since it was such a big deal that they couldn't put them in any trailers or allow reporters to talk about them but it was no big deal and they're revealed pretty fast.Proves even more how dumb and unnecessary that cliffhanger was imo.

I liked Oliver and Felicity,they're basically in the same spot they were in the last eps of season 5 so I'm glad we didn't miss much and get to see it develop on screen.Their scenes were really cute even tho they were tentative and holding back a little.I liked that Oliver really wants to talk to her and include her in his life,it's exactly what she wanted from him before,I'm glad we see him evolve that way.I do wish we got more of Felicity.I was honestly expecting like one scene and only revealing her at the end but when it turned out that it was just glossed over that she lived,they should have given her more or at least some hint of a set up for her storyline.

I'm kinda confused by why Digg is so affected since they've been in situations like that before and it wasn't an issue to that extent.It could be because he's wounded I guess.It could be good to explore a PTSD storyline for him since they didn't really do it after he shot Andy and all that in season 5 felt more like a way to keep him away for a few eps.

Dinah vs BS is totally dumb and ridiculous imo.There's no reason why BS has such a grudge against her,no on screen reason.Their whole rivalry is based on off screen stuff like Dinah replaced LL as BC but it makes no sense on screen.Their lines were cringeworthy and lame and the acting just as bad.

I've realized I only like or tolerate whatever newbie has the least screentime.I thought I liked Dinah but they gave her a little more to do and she already annoyed me.

Oliver and William is as bad as I thought.They need to stop writing the kid as a six year old when he looks 14.It's just weird.I feel bad for saying this about a kid but they really cast a bad child actor for William and they're giving him a somewhat big storyline with the lead of the show.It's really not helping no matter how hard SA is trying.I don't get why not just let him stay with other relatives but have Oliver build a relationship with him.You get the same thing without the huge commitment or constant need to excuse why the kid isn't there or without inevitably making Oliver look bad when he's shown spending most of his time doing superheroes stuff while the kid is left with the nanny.

Edited October 13, 2017 by tangerine95

[TwistedandBored]

It was an okay season opener. Like I expected to see only Oliver in the first minutes and no one else but when I saw most of the crew was fine then I really didn't care what happened to the others plus I read the spoilers about Thea. Honestly, I don't want a half season of flashbacks to that explosion. 

Anyways, Felicity looked amazing. Olicity was cute. 

[Primal Slayer]

I think a big thing is that they just went with a fairly easy route with the premiere instead of actually planning on how to make it as exciting as possible.

[Hook75]

I was REALLY hoping everyone died on the island and the show will be back with only Oliver, Felicity and Digg. But sadly, it is the same boring crap that the show sunk into since season 3. What a shame.

Quote

 

For me, this is how the premieres rated in terms of good premieres: 

Flash

Legends of Tomorrow

Arrow

Supergirl

 

I agree.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

 

I'm kinda confused by why Digg is so affected since they've been in situations like that before and it wasn't an issue to that extent.It could be because he's wounded I guess.It could be good to explore a PTSD storyline for him since they didn't really do it after he shot Andy and all that in season 5 felt more like a way to keep him away for a few eps.

 

I think it could actually be a combo.  That Diggle's issues really are centered around a physical injury (I was assuming the same kind of brain injury soldiers suffer from explosions until they showed his scar) and then he's losing his edge because he CAN'T rely on his abilities anymore.  

One thing that made no sense to me was DInah's claim that Diggle didn't fire his gun at all in the bunker.  We watched him empty the clip but totally miss BC's goons.  So unless he had someone else's gun, I don't know what she was talking about.  

 

2 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

It was an okay season opener. Like I expected to see only Oliver in the first minutes and no one else but when I saw most of the crew was fine then I really didn't care what happened to the others plus I read the spoilers about Thea. Honestly, I don't want a half season of flashbacks to that explosion. 

Anyways, Felicity looked amazing. Olicity was cute. 

 

I'd be surprised if we revisit the island explosion again.  There are unanswered questions but I think they are not mysteries so much as hand waved plot holes.  

 

Quote

Btw, whatever happened to that Boomerang guy?

 

Malcolm was going to take care of him either by making Boomerang take his place on the mine (thus when he stepped off blowing himself up) or stepping off the mine and blowing both of them up.  So Boomerang is assumed dead.

[JamieLynn832002]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

One thing that made no sense to me was DInah's claim that Diggle didn't fire his gun at all in the bunker.  We watched him empty the clip but totally miss BC's goons.  So unless he had someone else's gun, I don't know what she was talking about.  

Yeah, that confused the hell out of me too. I know there are extra guns in the bunker so maybe he was using one of them but they seemed to be saying he was afraid to shoot and that clearly wasn't true. Unless Dig was only imagining firing and missing, nothing Dinah said here makes sense.

[Primal Slayer]

Did he fire it before she came into the scene?

[JamieLynn832002]

He did fire it before the team arrived but she said she'd checked his gun and it hadn't been fired.

[insomniadreams88]

I think what it is is that Diggle's not using his/a gun if possible. And I think he picked up a gun from one of the mercenaries during the fighting before Oliver arrived. 

[Mellowyellow]

Did Diggle hallucinate firing the gun? 

Bamford's directing is absolutely atrocious so who knows what is really going on. 

I don't know why they let that unqualified hack direct so many episodes!

[Chaser]

I wasn't sure if I should post this because I haven't been able to watch the episode so my thoughts are filtered through recaps and other reactions. 

I was bummed by the lack of Felicity. I was annoyed by Dinah being everywhere. Screen times were depressing. 

But I think it makes sense. BS was the intro villain. She's tied to Dinah and Quentin so yeah, Dinah would get a bigger role here. If another villain was the Bad, it would have been a different story.

Diggle also got more to do (which I'm not complaining about at all), and that makes sense. The episode was literally titled Fallout. They were dealing with those most affected by the island directly. On the Team that was Diggle (PTSD), Dinah/Quentin (BS) and Oliver (William). Felicity was also impacted, but it was through her relationship with Oliver and their future with William. That Olicity scene set up that fallout. It makes sense Felicity, Curtis and Rene took a backseat this episode. 

As for Dinah also getting a place in Diggles storyline, I don't know what they are doing there. It feels like they are setting up something. Maybe a confrontation. Or they are just sticking to the whole Delicity only gets one heart to heart a season and therefore the only woman he can talk to is the latest one.

[statsgirl]

Nitpick but Thea's makeup especially the eyeliner and curled mascara'd eyelashes, made me roll my eyes.  In hospitals they take off your make up so that they can see what colour your skin in.

Joe Wilson being in Calgary seems to me like evidence there's something wrong. Why would someone from New Zealand visit Calgary?

We had BC vs BS fighting in the season 5 finale. We had three BC vs BS fights here.  I'm officially bored with the BC vs BS fights -- they're not nearly as interesting as the producers think they are.

18 hours ago, quarks said:

4. And speaking of that - uh, Quentin, you spent last season assuring us that Black Siren wasn't your daughter. Now, suddenly, after she helped kidnap a young boy and your friends, you think she's your daughter again?

I guess the man knows his daughter.

 

11 hours ago, quarks said:

To sum up, bad direction.

That's a good explanation of why the directing for this episode failed the plotline and emotional beats of the story.  It might have been a better episode with a better director.  (Hard to think it could have been worse.)

Berlantiverse has to stop giving the directing jobs to their BFFs and neophytes like Bam Bam and Gregory Smith and get some people who can take the questionable scripts up a notch rather than dropping the subtlety.  There's a reason nepotism leads to more problems.

[Hiveminder]

I quite enjoyed that.  Olicity are cute, but they better make progress quickly and soon, or I’m going to get annoyed.  BS was petty and bitchy, and I loved it.  They should always have written Laurel that way.  I loved Rene hugging Oliver.  Adorable.

 

I noticed some Dinah/Dig vibes, but I also noticed some Dinah/Quentin vibes and remember some Dinah/Oliver vibes from her first episode. I think the actress just injects sexual/romantic undertones into all her interactions. One day we’ll catch some Dinah/Felicity vibes and a hundred dirty fanfics will be born.

 

I didn’t mind Myson at all, and I think he is fairly age appropriate. I have a 12 year old niece, and while she’s a little immature for her age, I can see her calling someone ‘the bad man’. That in itself doesn’t strike me as too young, but that dialogue was very poorly written. 

 

14 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

What did Quentin shoot her with? Blanks? Because I didn't see any blood anywhere on her. She gasped awake as if being revived from the Lazarus Pit. Katie continues to be an awful, awful, wooden actress. As if smirking and swaying in a drunken walk with make-up pancaked over her face is supposed to make her look kewl and dangerous?

I did. It was kind of on her lower, left abdomen, but it was hard to see because of the lighting and the color of her suit. 

 

8 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

And after 5 years of being Arrow/GA, he suddenly makes this mistake of being hoodless/maskless out in the field? Feels like a lame way to expose Oliver. But i guess Helix was behind the exposure somehow?

I’m pretty sure he’s made that mistake several times, and you know what? That’s what you get for taking your superhero disguise off in public, Oliver. I hope he has to attend, like, ten Comic-Cons as a cover. 

[Cthulhudrew]

15 hours ago, Trisha said:

I'm very curious to know if the Dinah/Diggle vibes are coming from the actors or the writers or the director? My sister and I were texting back and forth during the show and in the first DD/JD scene she said I was reading too much into it, and then there was the lingering shot of her hand on his chest and she was like "Oh! Ok, then." 

There were definite vibes there in this episode. I've actually gotten that feeling from the two of them ever since they had a scene together in Juliana Harkavy's (2nd?) episode when Dinah and Dig were talking together in a van right before a job they had to do. I'd hate to see them break up Dig's marriage, but JH and DR have a lot of chemistry on screen.

[TrueMyth]

I haven't quite caught up with the thread, so forgive any retread of theory or fact, but grades are due next week and my fandom time is unfairly curtailed!

I can't say how much of it is my severely lowered expectations, but I actually rather enjoyed this episode. Thanks for promoting things I don't care about, CW, I guess.

For the first time with a BamBam episode, I found myself thinking "oh, that's kind of pretty" during the interrogation and explosion aftermath scenes.  I also liked most of the first action sequence.  I could actually see what was going on and Oliver got to be pretty badass. I guess I was a bit confused about where exactly he came from.  I think it was supposed to look like a bigger ship with Oliver down below near the water, but the establishing shot (good for later action) made it look like he was shooting out of the water.  Where was his SCUBA and flippers? Probably less cool.

Wilddog's new outfit is a big improvement in looks (although, maybe some armor next time, Cisco?).  Still can't stand him as a character. He is seriously still calling Felicity "blondie," and I think they want me to see it as endearing.  Even his hug with Oliver at the hospital leaves me cold:  (1) Sometimes the hardass, "I can check myself out against medical advice" pisses me off.  I could have bought it if he said something about the cost of medical bills, because that serves his niche of lower class hero, but the "tough" thing is annoying unless I already love the character (like Oliver) or they've been through enough already that a punctured lung really is a small thing (hello, Oliver and Sara).  (2) I'm still pissed about his back story.  I have very little sympathy for how he lost custody of his daughter and even less for the fact that he is not advocating for himself.  He obviously does not believe that he is worthy of her and that kind of makes him NOT in my book.

The signaled return of Zoe totally makes me think we'll have a "home alone" style episode with William and Zoe in the Arrow lair or something.  I am the opposite of excited at that prospect.

William. Ugh. Please tell me the boy is in counseling? Please? I hope they give us some actual bonding scenes soon, if he's sticking around. I need a reason to care about him besides Oliver's own feels.  I'm actually surprised that the "bad man" scene was EXACTLY what it looked like. It's so off-tone for an eleven year-old (especially one who looks 13).

When Oliver didn't look concerned about Faust's missile and then talked about his "friend," I was sure he meant Felicity.  Seasons 1-4 he would have meant Felicity.  WTH, Curtis.  I don't get why Felicity wasn't on running comms at any point this episode.  Was the burger run really important?  I appreciate the update on Donna, but her entrance was so down-played compared to the others.  All the mask got cool drama poses or action entrances and Felicity waltzes into frame half-covered with bags of grease like she's in a fast food commercial?  It didn't read like an ulterior motive to me, no vast secret like Helix.  I can see, as @quarks notes, that the scene could have been shot with more drama to reveal Felicity's status, post-island.  But then, I was worried that they would drag out the reveal and not give me any Olicity scenes until the last 15 minutes, so I was happy with what we got.

I'm so confused about what happened on the island.  Thea is assumed dead, but they don't check her pulse and let her lie on the cold ground for several minutes (apparently bleeding more) before whatever happens that makes them realize that she's unconscious?  Samantha's death was just... badly staged and badly acted.  If she had to stagger into frame, she should have been obviously bleeding out or dragging a leg or something.  Really?  She should have been found crushed under boulders so we could know that she was dead.  Oliver could have started shifting them, only to have Slade tell him that the pressure was the only thing keeping her alive (slowing blood loss) and that Samantha was already dead.

How did everyone survive?  Slade says they will never reach the plane ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ISLAND, Samantha runs off, Thea a few seconds after, then Diggle stops Felicity from the same and, in less than a minute, the bombs are exploding.  That should mean that NO ONE got to the plane.  And yet Lance, Rene, and Dinah are apparently physically unscathed?

I must assume that the island explosion is much like Prometheus himself, full of drama and psychological significance, but ultimately amounting to nothing.

It sounds like I didn't like the episode much, but I really did enjoy OLIVER this episode.  It's been a while since I could say that, so that probably explains my over all good mood.

[JamieLynn832002]

I think Oliver did check Thea's pulse and knew she wasn't dead. His reaction read as relief to me and Slade says they have to get her out of here. Still probably should have shown them doing something to try to help her though. Samantha's death, yeah, so not well done

 

The A.R.G.U.S. boat was on the other side of the island, the plane was a few feet behind them. Although I'm still not sure how Dig and Felicity reached it.

Edited October 14, 2017 by JamieLynn832002

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

I'd be surprised if we revisit the island explosion again.  There are unanswered questions but I think they are not mysteries so much as hand waved plot holes.  

I'm actually the opposite and am expecting at least flashbacks to Felicity and Dig in future episodes that focus on them. Like, the episode Felicity and Oliver make a decisive move forward in the present, I'm willing to bet we'll see their reunion in the flashbacks. Which makes me think MG was being very sneaky. Yes, he said there was no romantic kissing in the premier and it's true. But it felt weird to think about Olicity reuniting after Oliver thought she could be dead. In stead this wasn't in the premiere at all, but they'll show it in a later episode, where it's more relevant to the main plot. And what happens to Dig is revealed when an episode focuses more on his issues.

While I'm talking about the island, those scenes were so rushed and devoid of emotional impact. It was just characters moving from spot A to spot B.

I wouldn't have expected to be saying this, but the writing for William has improved. Closed off and sullen, and passive agressive with the backpack, feels right. Of course, it was the one truly horrific scene they chose to push down our throats in promos. Everything else was fine in my book.

When JH unclenches and plays Dinah as just a person, I think she's fine. But when she goes for tough girl, yeesh. Also, I think KC is picking up on her sultry technique. There was a weird sexual vibe in her last scene with Lance. While I don't perscribe to the school of thought that our dopplegangers are just like us, that man looks just like your father! Come on!

Overall, I don't think it's a bad episode, it just didn't feel much like a season premiere to me.

[BkWurm1]

41 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I think Oliver did check Thea's pulse and knew she wasn't dead. His reaction read as relief to me and Slade says they have to get her out of here. Still probably should have shown them doing something to try to help her though. Samantha's death, yeah, so not well done

 

 

2

Rewatching the episode.  I was looking for his relief after he knelt and checked Thea but I just don't see it.  He looks more anguished and even makes a whimpering sound before hanging his head.  I knew Thea wasn't dead but if I hadn't been spoiled I would have been sure she was dead.  Knowing she was alive means Slade was pretty worthless.  "The blast blew her over there" But he just leaves her lying there?  And I hate that Oliver never followed up the part where Slade had to come back to look for everyone meaning he ditched them.  Details matter.  

 

About William.  I don't get how he can pretty much flat out say that he's living with the bad man that got him mom killed but also by the end of the episode agree to hang with him.  Either he comes to realize ultimately Oliver wasn't the one that hurt his mom or he keeps hating him.  I don't understand how he can both still blame him while make peace with him.  I also don't understand why Chase isn't getting any blame since he kidnapped him for weeks and directly said he was going to kill his mom and prior to Lian Yu, the GA was William's hero so seeing him on the boat, his first thought SHOULD have been Yay!  I'm saved!  Not, Oh he's a bad man!  I get that he could piece together that ultimately he and his mom were only targeted because Chase wanted to hurt Oliver but that's an intellectual understanding that would have came later and doesn't really make sense manifesting in his dreams as an unnamed "bad" man when he had another very hands on bad guy to give him nightmares.  It's really poor writing all around.  

Edited October 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Jacks-Son]

I sort of enjoyed this episode though I agree with most here that the cliffhangar resolution was glossed over.  Meaningless scenes were filmed but not the meaty ones. Digs stumbles when a bomb goes off; (something he's used to, so I don't know why they filmed it that way) Felicity actually stumbles and falls while running; (WTH? is this a horror film trope gone awry) Samantha struggles to reach Oliver and "pass the torch" about William; Oliver finds Thea and shakes his head "no" like she's dead, but she's not; (so WTF does he shake his head?) Weird filming choices! Liked the Raisa call back and the WD daughter call back. I find it hard to believe Quentin is torn about the BS but then again, I've never had a doppelgänger plague me.

I don't know why there is such Dinah hate. I'm fine with her. The show needs another powerful woman since it lacks Thea, Nyssa, Black Canary, and Sara. I LOVE me some Felicity and she was looking especially beautiful in this episode so, no worries there.  There was a lot going on, so Felicity didn't get enough screen time for some. Big deal. Dinah go a lot of screen time; another big whoop. Didn't get the vibe that there's something going on with Digs and Dinah, I did not get a vibe that DR and EBR don't like each other.

Samantha died because she had to. I think Anna Hopkins is hot as Hell and those lips are gorgeous, but the actress is sought out now and she's got another role that she's appearing in, so she had to go. I'm just thankful that no one else was sacrificed. KC, in my opinion, is getting too much hate. To me, she's fine as an actress, at least she was fine on "Supernatural".  My only reservation about her was when she fought.  Her moves weren't very good (compared to Caity Lotz, who is a natural athlete) and the fact that the show tried to make her the BC way too soon without real training. They tried to absolve that by having Nyssa train her and it made it look good, but she was never really BC ready.

I'm ready for season 6 and this was a good start.