S06.E01: Fallout

[BkWurm1]

About Oliver and Co getting back from City Hall to the bunker so fast to save Diggle.  I'm thinking there was supposed to be a longer time period between when we saw Dig set off that blast and then when we see him in another level of the Lair.  I think he was supposed to have been hiding and evading BS's henchmen for awhile until Oliver was able to show up.  Obviously it's not clear but it's the only thing that makes any sense.  

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I don't know why there is such Dinah hate. I'm fine with her. The show needs another powerful woman since it lacks Thea, Nyssa, Black Canary, and Sara. I LOVE me some Felicity and she was looking especially beautiful in this episode so, no worries there.  There was a lot going on, so Felicity didn't get enough screen time for some. Big deal. Dinah go a lot of screen time; another big whoop. Didn't get the vibe that there's something going on with Digs and Dinah, I did not get a vibe that DR and EBR don't like each other.

I had two or three issues with her this episode when I haven't had any problem with her before.  I didn't like when she snapped at Felicity and Curtis at City Hall and told them to pay attention or something.  Felicity has multitasked and talked from the beginning.  It was arrogant to assume Felicity needed to be told to focus when all she did was very briefly tell Curtis no suit no codename.  Also didn't like her attitude toward Diggle and his gun.  She's not telling him to come clean.  She's just acting pissed. 

Then there's my biggest issue with her in the episode, that she was and had been pushing Lance to hide shooting BS.  It was terrible judgment and honestly came off to me that she was projecting her wants and beliefs over what Lance felt.  Hiding what he'd done and being forced to silently wallow in his guilt for five months and lying about something that NOBODY else would have judged him for really ruined Dinah for me in this episode. Not forever, I hope, but I went from really liking her in the precinct and at first at the bar to really resenting her controlling nature and her blatantly lying to Oliver when directly asked which created drama that just didn't need to happen for Lance.  Her actions with Lance is probably what set me off more about the thing with Felicity and with Diggle.

It really bothers me that she thought Lance should hide what he did like she thought he SHOULD be ashamed.  It's hard for me to trust her judgment after that.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding.  EBR and DR from all accounts get along great.   I think they just spread the OTA around to the other characters so we miss out on good Delicity scenes.  

Edited October 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Angel12d]

1 hour ago, TrueMyth said:

When Oliver didn't look concerned about Faust's missile and then talked about his "friend," I was sure he meant Felicity.  Seasons 1-4 he would have meant Felicity.  WTH, Curtis.  I don't get why Felicity wasn't on running comms at any point this episode.  Was the burger run really important?  I appreciate the update on Donna, but her entrance was so down-played compared to the others.  All the mask got cool drama poses or action entrances and Felicity waltzes into frame half-covered with bags of grease like she's in a fast food commercial?  It didn't read like an ulterior motive to me, no vast secret like Helix.  I can see, as @quarks notes, that the scene could have been shot with more drama to reveal Felicity's status, post-island. 

Haha, this was me. I was like "Yay Felicity...oh. Never mind." This is one of my major reasons for disliking Curtis (the others being that he's just annoying tbh). 

And I agree, the way they revealed Felicity was still alive was really underwhelming, although I, too, thought they'd wait until near the end of the episode so I guess they get points for not dragging it out, unlike with Thea.

[JamieLynn832002]

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Rewatching the episode.  I was looking for his relief after he knelt and checked Thea but I just don't see it.  He looks more anguished and even makes a whimpering sound before hanging his head.  I knew Thea wasn't dead but if I hadn't been spoiled I would have been sure she was dead.  Knowing she was alive means Slade was pretty worthless.  "The blast blew her over there" But he just leaves her lying there?  And I hate that Oliver never followed up the part where Slade had to come back to look for everyone meaning he ditched them.  Details matter

I may have only seen it as relief because I was spoiled and knew Thea wasn't dead, I'm not sure. So agree about Slade being worthless and Oliver never following up on the 'hey, I totally abandoned the people you let me out of prison to help save' thing. Oliver seemed to pick on the meaning of Slade coming back but then he just let it go and it was weird.

[Jacks-Son]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I had two or three issues with her this episode when I haven't had any problem with her before.  I didn't like when she snapped at Felicity and Curtis at City Hall and told them to pay attention or something.  Felicity has multitasked and talked from the beginning.  It was arrogant to assume Felicity needed to be told to focus when all she did was very briefly tell Curtis no suite no codename.  Also didn't like her attitude toward Diggle and his gun.  She's not telling him to come clean.  She's just acting pissed. 

Then there's my biggest issue with her in the episode, that she was and had been pushing Lance to hide shooting BS.  It was terrible judgment and honestly came off to me that she was projecting her wants and beliefs over what Lance felt.  Hiding what he'd done and being forced to silently wallow in his guilt for five months and lying about something that NOBODY else would have judged him for really ruined Dinah for me in this episode. Not forever, I hope, but I went from really liking her in the precinct and at first at the bar to really resenting her controlling nature and her blatantly lying to Oliver when directly asked which created drama that just didn't need to happen for Lance.  Her actions with Lance is probably what set me off more about the thing with Felicity and with Diggle.

It really bothers me that she thought Lance should hide what he did like she thought he SHOULD be ashamed.  It's hard for me to trust her judgment after that.

All excellent points. I give you props for your astute perspective. I will re-asses my opinion. Thanks.

[Angel12d]

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I had two or three issues with her this episode when I haven't had any problem with her before.  I didn't like when she snapped at Felicity and Curtis at City Hall and told them to pay attention or something.  Felicity has multitasked and talked from the beginning.  It was arrogant to assume Felicity needed to be told to focus when all she did was very briefly tell Curtis no suite no codename.  Also didn't like her attitude toward Diggle and his gun.  She's not telling him to come clean.  She's just acting pissed. 

Then there's my biggest issue with her in the episode, that she was and had been pushing Lance to hide shooting BS.  It was terrible judgment and honestly came off to me that she was projecting her wants and beliefs over what Lance felt.  Hiding what he'd done and being forced to silently wallow in his guilt for five months and lying about something that NOBODY else would have judged him for really ruined Dinah for me in this episode. Not forever, I hope, but I went from really liking her in the precinct and at first at the bar to really resenting her controlling nature and her blatantly lying to Oliver when directly asked which created drama that just didn't need to happen for Lance.  Her actions with Lance is probably what set me off more about the thing with Felicity and with Diggle.

I felt the same as you but then was reminded that they're setting her up as someone who feels like she's a leader and there's going to be problems with that later on. So I can probably handle it if this is intentional to cause conflict and something she learns from? But if she's just going to be like this all the time, they can keep it. (Seriously, don't come onto the team acting like you run it. How about no?)

Edited October 14, 2017 by Angel12d

[bijoux]

What I find odd here is that she didn't really come on to the team like that, she wa reluctant, but definitely not seeking command. This seems to have just sprung out suddenly. Maybe that's the effect of the explosion on her? Thea's in a coma, Dig's suffering from PTSD and maybe a physical injury, and Dinah's bossy out of the blue? 

[Jacks-Son]

29 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Dinah's bossy out of the blue? 

Isn't being bossy a pre-requisite for police officers?  Well, it would seem, to me, part of the nature of someone who who wants to be a protective professional.  Doesn't that describe Oliver? In fact, doesn't that describe all of our heroes?

Edited October 14, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[arjumand]

14 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

Oliver and William is as bad as I thought.They need to stop writing the kid as a six year old when he looks 14.It's just weird.I feel bad for saying this about a kid but they really cast a bad child actor for William and they're giving him a somewhat big storyline with the lead of the show.It's really not helping no matter how hard SA is trying.I don't get why not just let him stay with other relatives but have Oliver build a relationship with him.You get the same thing without the huge commitment or constant need to excuse why the kid isn't there or without inevitably making Oliver look bad when he's shown spending most of his time doing superheroes stuff while the kid is left with the nanny.

All of this, but especially the part in bold.

I mean, when he was just gaming and ignoring Oliver I was letting it slide, but wittering on about 'the bad man' was just painful to watch. Have these people ever met a child? For fuck's sake. Just fudge the timeline (as they usually do) and make him 14, and let's be done with the bullshit. Oh, but then we couldn't have the sooper-speshul dramatic reveal that it's actually Oliver in his nightmares. I mean, I don't know if I can judge the kid for his acting, when he's clearly being given a script and character direction to follow.

Also, yes - what is the point of him living with Oliver, a man who is balancing two lives already? Ugghh.

[Jacks-Son]

Is this William supposed to become Connor Hawke?

[Midnight Lullaby]

19 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Isn't being bossy a pre-requisite for police officers?  Well, it would seem, to me, part of the nature of someone who who wants to be a protective professional.  Doesn't that describe Oliver? In fact, doesn't that describe all of our heroes?

She wasn't like that last season though and she's worked as a police officer even before joining team Arrow.

 

3 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Is this William supposed to become Connor Hawke?

No, that's Dig's kid. In the Legends episode where they travel to the future he took the alias of Connor Hawke and was the GA..

[Jacks-Son]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

No, that's Dig's kid. In the Legends episode where they travel to the future he took the alias of Connor Hawke and was the GA..

Don't remember that in "Legends'.  Doesn't that go against Canon?

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Don't remember that in "Legends'.  Doesn't that go against Canon?

It was episode 1x05. It does like most of the things they do on those shows. Making William Clayton, whose mom is Samantha Clayton, Connor Hawke would also go against canon. They gave Oliver a kid but chose not to make that kid Connor.

[bijoux]

31 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

She wasn't like that last season though and she's worked as a police officer even before joining team Arrow.

This. If it was her original setting, fine. But it wasn't. And it seems the team is functioning pretty well at the moment, so it's not the case of you're doing a horrible job at this, it's better that I take over either. I'm not even mad about it on the writing level, just confused. On the acting level, I think JH overacts the hell of those scenes and not in an amusing way either.

[TrueMyth]

Dinah was totally off base to advise Lance to keep shooting BS a secret. I fully blame that choice with Lance's current confused guilt over "Laurel" when he had it all worked out last season.  She's also off base with Diggle, since I assume she has the most experience recognizing PTSD of the group (Oliver doesn't have training in unit cohesion or psychology) and yet she seemed more angry that he didn't have her back than concerned about his mental state.

I guess this goes to show that she never went undercover with a gang of therapists.

[Midnight Lullaby]

31 minutes ago, bijoux said:

This. If it was her original setting, fine. But it wasn't. And it seems the team is functioning pretty well at the moment, so it's not the case of you're doing a horrible job at this, it's better that I take over either. I'm not even mad about it on the writing level, just confused. On the acting level, I think JH overacts the hell of those scenes and not in an amusing way either.

To me it feels like they were writing her more like Sara at the beginning and now they decided to make her act like Laurel. Laurel's arrogance when she first joined the team was such a turn off for me. They seem to think arrogant = confident = badass.

[Primal Slayer]

I think Dinah was in her "honeymoon period last season, she was the new girl feeling her place in the team and seeing how things work. Now she's comfortable with everyone, has a stable life, and probably wasn't happy with how the island played out. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think it's more the writers that didn't bring her in thinking of a new character but wrote Sara and now are writing Laurel so it seems there was a big change in Dinah. That's my feeling anyway. Like watching the interrogation all I saw was Laurel, same for her scene with Lance..

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, I think Dinah this season has pretty much continued what they were trying to do with Laurel in S4: being on Team Arrow and being bossy, having heart-to-hearts with Diggle, having a father-daughter relationship with Lance, being a sorta justice warrior as a cop instead of DA.  She's replaced Laurel in almost every way because she has the canary cry.

[Primal Slayer]

I feel like She came in very headstrong before fading into the background and is now back to the forefront. 

I do agree that I saw Laurel when she interrogated the cop and was talking to Q. They have practically made her his surrogate daughter. Of course it's something that would've been better with Thea but we can't have nice things. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oh and I forgot to say that I confirm my idea about Oliver/William that I expressed before the episode aired. They are focusing on Oliver's guilt about what happened to Samantha because if he wasn't the GA nothing would have happened and his inability to reach William but I don't find this things that make him a bad father because he couldn't have predicted what Chase would have done, you can't blame yourself for things out of his control. While I find questionable things like not taking a temporary leave from his job to stay with his kid and instead making the nanny look after him and not taking him to therapy that the show is ignoring completely.

[ComicFan777]

I could see Oliver taking time off arrowing since the team is really big now.  But would he be able to get paid leave from being mayor?  Since he's a single parent, I think it would be hard to take time off from a job to take care of his kid for 5 months.

[bijoux]

Nothing to say he hasn't taken some time off already in the months that have passed.

[Midnight Lullaby]

When people asked MG about Oliver losing his money after season 2 he said it wasn't a real issue because Oliver had money hidden from when he was working with ARGUS or something like that so it was a no issue..

To be clear what I said isn't so much criticism towards the character, Oliver, but it's me disagreeing with the angle the writers chose.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oliver had money during his ARGUS time? And yet in Sason 4 everything from buying the building for the lair to paying for a windshield to jump-starting his campaign came from Felicity's pockets. What a mooch! Another consequence of the writers not thinking things through on this show.

[ComicFan777]

Does Oliver have money though?  I thought in 3x01 when he gave Diggle Baby Sara's necklace...
Diggle said you cannot afford this and Oliver said I can't afford anything, which is why I made it.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

Dinah was promoted to Lieutenant over the summer at work, so I wonder if that had something to do with her new attitude? (I still don’t get that promotion by the way.) 

[Primal Slayer]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Dinah was promoted to Lieutenant over the summer at work, so I wonder if that had something to do with her new attitude? (I still don’t get that promotion by the way.) 

SCPD probably has a hard time getting people to work for them so promotions aren't hard. Though I dislike it when characters get promoted into big roles at work. 

[quarks]

8 hours ago, bijoux said:

While I'm talking about the island, those scenes were so rushed and devoid of emotional impact. It was just characters moving from spot A to spot B.

 

Yeah.

As said, I liked it, but this episode had a lot of issues: way too many plots, as I noted, some very questionable framing/camera shots, and inexplicable ADR issues (inexplicable because ADR/sound editing has rarely been one of Arrow's issues, and it was the only one of the four Arrowverse shows to have obvious to distracting problems with ADR this week, even though it was not the only one to use ADR). But an additional issue is that, not, alas, for the first time, the flashback stuff wasn't telling a story. Which was bizarre, since for once, the flashbacks actually had a story to tell - how did everyone survive the island?

The last time the flashbacks weren't telling any sort of story within that episode (as opposed to the season) was back in season four, when as far as I could tell, the major issue was that the flashbacks didn't have a story to tell.  In this case they did - but chose not to tell it, for whatever reason.

Regarding Dinah: my sense is that Arrow may be going for several things here: one, try to illustrate what Slade was talking about - that Oliver is going to have problems balancing life as the mayor/vigilantism/raising a kid, thus meaning that Oliver is missing huge things like Diggle is having problems pulling the trigger of a gun, like, Arrow, you've been saying this for five seasons now. We got it. Really, we got it. Two, continue to establish that Dinah is highly observant, in a continuation from last season. Three, try to move Dinah up to the status of co-leader of the team, ready to defy Oliver when needed, which is a problem largely because it's a rather small team, so it doesn't exactly need a second leader, but also because everyone on this show and Flash and even Legends of Tomorrow is more than happy to defy Oliver when needed. Also, of course, Arrow already has two people in that position, Felicity and Diggle, and also just spent an entire season trying to convince us that yes, one day Rene can become a Big Inspiring Superhero Leader Too. (Whether or not Arrow succeeded in that is an open question, but the show did spend quite a bit of screentime on that.) And in show canon, Curtis is supposed to be a supergenius and potential leader - I don't think that came across on screen at all well last season, but that was the general idea. So Team Arrow already has plenty of leaders.

Beyond this, having Diggle struggle with physical injuries/PTSD doesn't change Felicity's status. And for this to work, Arrow needs to show not so much Dinah taking over Oliver's leadership stuff/noticing issues with teammates, but have her start with leading Rene and Curtis and then work up to co-leadership status. This hasn't been done at all - in fact, last season Arrow did the exact opposite, having Curtis or Rene take the lead from her.  And three, as everyone else has noted, Dinah's the newest member of the team - and like Felicity and Diggle in earlier seasons and Rene this season, she works for Oliver in her day job, putting them at non equal status. And although Arrow did take time to put Dinah on friendly terms with everyone last season, and established a friendship between her and Diggle, Arrow hasn't taken the time to show the same friendship with the rest of the teammates. At this point, I think you can make an in canon argument that Curtis is actually better friends with Cisco than he is with Dinah, and Rene has certainly established a stronger friendship/relationship with both Diggle and Quentin, and even arguably Curtis, than he has with Dinah.

In some ways, this was a plot that would have worked better with Laurel, the one character other than Curtis - who has worked for Felicity in the past - who never worked for Oliver in any capacity and who had genuine canon reasons to regard Oliver as an equal and initially refuse to join his team.  It didn't work with Laurel because Arrow never took the time to make her even remotely as competent as Oliver (or anyone else) until right before she died, but the foundation was there.  Arrow seems to be taking the opposite approach with Dinah: making her equally if not more competent than Oliver, while simultaneously putting her immediately under his leadership.

It will be interesting to see if Arrow really explores this, coming up - not just with Oliver and Dinah, but Dinah and the rest of the team. There's some potentially rich stuff here, but I think we can all agree that Arrow has wasted potentially rich stuff before. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

34 minutes ago, quarks said:

It will be interesting to see if Arrow really explores this, coming up - not just with Oliver and Dinah, but Dinah and the rest of the team. There's some potentially rich stuff here, but I think we can all agree that Arrow has wasted potentially rich stuff before. 

Does the BC mantle come with an automatic description and story line about defying Oliver? Because they already did this to some extent with Sara and seems to have tried to to that with Laurel (but utterly failed because she has no real standing within the team). I really hope this storyline isn't going to be the show's way of trying to do BC/GA — not romantically but as as "co-leaders" on the team. 

Also, and hat tip to friends who raised this, does the BC mantle also come with automatic friendship with Diggle? Because, again, the last BC suddenly became Diggle's "sister" despite have no history as friends. And suddenly this chick is the one having heart-to-heart talks with Diggle. And I'm fully aware I'm viewing this from the lens of a massive OTA/Delicity fan but I resent the hell out of it.

[Angel12d]

30 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Does the BC mantle come with an automatic description and story line about defying Oliver? Because they already did this to some extent with Sara and seems to have tried to to that with Laurel (but utterly failed because she has no real standing within the team). I really hope this storyline isn't going to be the show's way of trying to do BC/GA — not romantically but as as "co-leaders" on the team. 

Also, and hat tip to friends who raised this, does the BC mantle also come with automatic friendship with Diggle? Because, again, the last BC suddenly became Diggle's "sister" despite have no history as friends. And suddenly this chick is the one having heart-to-heart talks with Diggle. And I'm fully aware I'm viewing this from the lens of a massive OTA/Delicity fan but I resent the hell out of it.

Yeah, I've been asking for more Diggle/Felicity scenes for 3-4 years now but we've had basically nothing. Instead, Diggle was insta-friends with Laurel and now he's having bonding sessions with Dinah. I kind of resent the fact that Dinah gets this at Felicity's expense? Because that's kind of what it's looking like to me, simply because this show doesn't seem able to write for both at the same time, if that makes sense. I hope it's not setting a precedent and it was only the first episode but this is Arrow so I'm not sure. Haha.

Also, as I said in another thread, this is s6 now and I don't like the idea of someone new coming in and taking over as leader or even co-leader just because her name is from the comics. ?

[Trisha]

9 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I may have only seen it as relief because I was spoiled and knew Thea wasn't dead, I'm not sure. 

I thought it played as relief too but in EW's post-premiere interview, SA seems to imply he thought she was dead: "When we see her in the premiere, she’s not unconscious, because if she was unconscious or if she looked as though she was clinging to life, Oliver’s reaction would’ve been very different, and Slade’s reaction would’ve been very different. In actuality, when they happen upon her, it just appears that she’s dead, like dead dead, like been dead for a minute." 

I think the fact that it was hard to decipher Oliver's reaction speaks to this episode's really bad direction. There was actually a tweet yesterday that blew up about how atrocious it was. (I agreed with most of his thread; I adore EBR but her line reading of "you should be on the plane" was terrible, ADR or no.) 

 

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

Does Oliver have money though?  I thought in 3x01 when he gave Diggle Baby Sara's necklace... Diggle said you cannot afford this and Oliver said I can't afford anything, which is why I made it.

In the 2.5 digital comics there was a mention that he was living off Moira's life insurance so I always assumed he wasn't super rich anymore but still doing ok?

[ComicFan777]

Quote

In the 2.5 digital comics there was a mention that he was living off Moira's life insurance so I always assumed he wasn't super rich anymore but still doing ok?

Because of his conversation with Diggle in 3x01, I'm guessing he must have ran out of money by the start of the season - since he mentioned that was the reason why he had to make Baby Sara's necklace instead of buying something.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Primal Slayer]

I know why they didn't do it but one would think if Oliver was in contact with Felicity, he would've told her that "I have William, he is safe" but then they wouldnt be able to kill off Samantha for no reason. womp womp.

[way2interested]

The part when Oliver tells Felicity that they all have to go was right before Chase pulls out William, so technically he couldn't have told them everything's ok or that William was safe.

[TrueMyth]

I hope they address finances at some point. Felicity, Diggle, and Curtis are all going over a year without employment.  I can hand wave Felicity's big settlement from Palmer Inc, but she will eventually need to work and it is even more awkward if she is bankrolling the whole Arrow operations.  They may share some ARGUS tech but would want to stay independent if possible.  The same with STAR Labs. There could be some big problems if any of Oliver's city paycheck is making its way into the Arrow budget.

I'd love to know the show runners' thoughts, but they'll just accuse us of being pedantic to wonder about triviality like money.

[Primal Slayer]

8 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

I hope they address finances at some point. Felicity, Diggle, and Curtis are all going over a year without employment.  I can hand wave Felicity's big settlement from Palmer Inc, but she will eventually need to work and it is even more awkward if she is bankrolling the whole Arrow operations.  They may share some ARGUS tech but would want to stay independent if possible.  The same with STAR Labs. There could be some big problems if any of Oliver's city paycheck is making its way into the Arrow budget.

I'd love to know the show runners' thoughts, but they'll just accuse us of being pedantic to wonder about triviality like money.

I've been wishing that for quite some time but sadly I doubt they ever will. Those smaller things are things I like to see explored in shows, all down to the type of car everyone drives lol. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

On 10/13/2017 at 0:54 AM, quarks said:

2. Speaking of sets, Oliver's apartment set is the QC/PT/Mayor's set - they slid in a new wall and redressed it, but that was it. 

So I guess Oliver and William will be moving in with Felicity at some point? There goes my hope that Felicity will move into Oliver's new place and they could get rid of the loft filled with bad juju. I know MG said he loves the loft set but I was really hoping they'd find an excuse to blow it up (like they did the police precinct) and Oliver and Felicity can find a fresh home.

24 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

I'd love to know the show runners' thoughts, but they'll just accuse us of being pedantic to wonder about triviality like money.

Marc actually mentioned this during an interview and said something like "if we're doing our job right, the viewers won't think about this." And I just laughed and laughed because we do think about it so it means they're not doing their job right.

[TrueMyth]

25 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

So I guess Oliver and William will be moving in with Felicity at some point? There goes my hope that Felicity will move into Oliver's new place and they could get rid of the loft filled with bad juju. I know MG said he loves the loft set but I was really hoping they'd find an excuse to blow it up (like they did the police precinct) and Oliver and Felicity can find a fresh home.

Marc actually mentioned this during an interview and said something like "if we're doing our job right, the viewers won't think about this." And I just laughed and laughed because we do think about it so it means they're not doing their job right.

I hope they don't move into that horrible loft.  What are the replacing the precinct set with?

Yeah, Marc has some special ideas about audience.  I mean, on some shows, I'd agree.  I know people pick at it with Friends for example, but if they don't really talk about it, then the audience can go with it.  As mentioned above, they have addressed money multiple times, so it is out there.  It has been a source of conflict in seasons two and three.  The fact that it is not a conflict now should be addressed, at least briefly.

[bijoux]

I don't think they're repurposing that set. The surrounding area got too loud and they needed to move or rebuild that set elsewhere.

[DeadZeus]

a HUGE thing that bothered me in this episode is that TWICE! Oliver takes down some bad guys, says something about taking down Black Siren and then literally runs off screen (on highway scene he actually runs to her and next shot he is gone) but yea he runs offscreen giving the opportunity for her to escape while Oliver is doing god knows what... They rly need to shoot these scenes better...

[LeighAn]

Finally got around to watching the episode in full. I don't know what I can add that everyone else hasn't already touched on except to say that I enjoyed the episode for the most part but found that five minutes afterwards I couldn't remember a lot of what happened in the episode. I think for a regular episode of Arrow it was really good but for premiere not so much. It was as though they were starting off the season with a filler episode. 

 

I didnt actually mind Dinah that much but did think there was quite a lot of her- like do we really need that long shot of her walking through the police academy graduation? But in terms of her attitude I didn't notice her being overly bossy or find her annoying yet. But if I was a casual viewer or someone just watching the show Id assume her and Diggle are going to hook up. It's not just the acting but that camera stayed focused on them a beat too long. 

 

I also didn't find William all that grating. The actors not exceptional but I thought that he did what he had to do well enough. I like at least that they aren't going straight into Oliver and William being close as father and son straight up. 

 

Im hoping that we might get flash backs to the Island from other characters perspective because otherwise that cliff hanger feels very lack lustre.

 

7 hours ago, Trisha said:

There was actually a tweet yesterday that blew up about how atrocious it was. (I agreed with most of his thread; I adore EBR but her line reading of "you should be on the plane" was terrible, ADR or no.) 

Meh.  All I can say to that tweet/twitter account is Haters will hate. Arrow has never pretended to be a Games of Thrones level of production and anyone who has been expected that 6 years later should have figured that out abut 5 to 6 years earlier. Were there direction problem with this episode? Yes. But that guy admits to never watching the show so it seems disingenuous to take one clip out of context and make assumptions about the whole show, especially when it seems less about the actual production values and more about having a go at Emily as an actress while glossing over the flat or wooden line deliveries of ALL of them in the scene. So I could see why the redditors would have clasped on to that. So yeah, haters will hate. ?‍♀️

[Angel12d]

I must be weird because I didn't think Felicity's fall was that bad? It actually looked like it hurt, which is how a fall is meant to look, IMO. I do think the set up of the shot was weird though, like it wasn't centered which was odd, and they probably could have had her fall over something bigger but I didn't have an issue with the fall itself.

I do think the direction of this episode was really poor though and the editing was sloppy. When I'm noticing weird camera angles and awkward shots - me, a complete novice - that's when there's a problem, IMO. But then this is just one episode and thankfully not all the directors are Boy's Club Bamford.

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I must be weird because I didn't think Felicity's fall was that bad? It actually looked like it hurt, which is how a fall is meant to look, IMO.

Yeah, I remember actually wincing at it because it looked rough (although I did notice the obvious stunt set-up) and only thought it was bad from the weird editing/staging. Like, everyone else is suddenly gone and we're not given a real scope of how far away the plane/actual cover is or how far away Samantha ran off or where Diggle even came from and why he was the only one to come back, it switches from stagnant to handheld to stagnant again, etc. There were some really cool shots in the episode (I still really like that shot of Diggle and Felicity running from the bombs), but the only problem is that they weren't edited well, meaning that they didn't flow well to other shots in the scene or that they didn't flow well for the tone of the scenes.

32 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I also didn't find William all that grating. The actors not exceptional but I thought that he did what he had to do well enough. I like at least that they aren't going straight into Oliver and William being close as father and son straight up. 

Yeah, except for that one scene, I was actually semi-surprised that he didn't come off as really bad writing/acting-wise in the other scenes (like there was a little effort!), although there were just limited interactions, which I think would work best for the show overall but we'll see. 

39 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Im hoping that we might get flash backs to the Island from other characters perspective because otherwise that cliff hanger feels very lack lustre.

But what about the book sales?? Ha, coming after a few days off of 601, I'm wondering if that is what's going to be the main selling point of the book.

[LeighAn]

19 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, I remember actually wincing at it because it looked rough (although I did notice the obvious stunt set-up) and only thought it was bad from the weird editing/staging. Like, everyone else is suddenly gone and we're not given a real scope of how far away the plane/actual cover is or how far away Samantha ran off or where Diggle even came from and why he was the only one to come back, it switches from stagnant to handheld to stagnant again, etc. There were some really cool shots in the episode (I still really like that shot of Diggle and Felicity running from the bombs), but the only problem is that they weren't edited well, meaning that they didn't flow well to other shots in the scene or that they didn't flow well for the tone of the scenes.

I really liked the opening scene and the mini introductions of each character and that flip out of the water Oliver makes was really cool. And I think the Island flash backs were very cinematic. I also thought the bridge fight scenes were up to par.

 

I agree it could have been edited a lot better and I also think Bamford rushed some of the smaller intimate team moments if that makes sense. Like you could tell in some of the big action set pieces that they must have put a lot of thought and time into making them look good but some of the smaller character moments felt like they did maybe one or two takes and moved on. 

 

But overall I didn't notice a massive drop in quality. I think the fact that the premiere wasn't overly exciting maybe made some of the odd directing and editing choices stand out more. 

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

But overall I didn't notice a massive drop in quality. I think the fact that the premiere wasn't overly exciting maybe made some of the odd directing and editing choices stand out more. 

Yeah, I think it was just a mix of some odd choices at times where they were pretty noticeable because the plot didn't catch up yet or wasn't as exciting. Like, even that nice tracking shot of following Dinah during Oliver's speech was just kind of ruined because why should we care about following Dinah if the scene ends up going nowhere or if it doesn't make sense for her to be literally the only one moving in a whole shot while everyone else is standing still listening to Oliver. But even contrast that to say 502 which had a better paced plot and more interesting story and even though that episode also had a bunch of tech issues they were a bit easier to overlook because they were either in throwaway shots/quick scenes (that weird scene of Rory attacking someone on a street) or negligible problems in general (Rory's ADR because he didn't say much anyway and we could still get what was happening or the abruptness of the ending because at that point the episode was ending).

[Hiveminder]

On a slightly superficial note, I just want to say that Dinah’s pantsuit/jumpsuit or whatever at the graduation ceremony looked great. 

[LeighAn]

12 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

On a slightly superficial note, I just want to say that Dinah’s pantsuit/jumpsuit or whatever at the graduation ceremony looked great. 

I thought that too. Juliana clearly got a wardrobe budget boost with her regular contract.

 

Emily/Felicity still won the style stakes though for me just because I like that she wears colours that I'm too gutless to wear myself.

[Jacks-Son]

21 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Emily/Felicity still won the style stakes though for me just because I like that she wears colours that I'm too gutless to wear myself.

Felicity always wins style point because she's flat out gorgeous and looks good in whatever she wears.

On a trivial point, why does Oliver call William "Buddy"? It's seems like a horrible way to speak to your son. It reminds me of John Crichton (Ben Browder) on "Farscape" speaking to his hologram son by saying, "Hey Buuuddy". I've got three sons, and five grandsons and I've NEVER called any of them "Buddy".  You call your dog, "Buddy".  Oliver should just say "Son", or "William" or another affectionate name, but "Buddy" is not an affectionate name. It's a stupid name to call your own son.  Sorry, /rant

[statsgirl]

10 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

Yeah, Marc has some special ideas about audience.  I mean, on some shows, I'd agree.  I know people pick at it with Friends for example, but if they don't really talk about it, then the audience can go with it.  As mentioned above, they have addressed money multiple times, so it is out there.  It has been a source of conflict in seasons two and three.  The fact that it is not a conflict now should be addressed, at least briefly.

I don't think they've become used yet to social media. Whereas before it was just one or a handful of people who watched and talked about an episode, now it's a whole interconnected network who discuss and exchange ideas and impressions.    One person will notice something and comment on it and then a bunch more people will say "yeah, why is it happening that way?"
 

16 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

I guess this goes to show that she never went undercover with a gang of therapists.

I laughed out loud at that.

13 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

Does Oliver have money though?  I thought in 3x01 when he gave Diggle Baby Sara's necklace...
Diggle said you cannot afford this and Oliver said I can't afford anything, which is why I made it.

Being mayor probably comes with a hefty salary.  Also he has Thea's money to play with now. She inherited the Merlyn wealth.

But most likely MG just forgot what he had written in 3x01

Eta;.

Quote

Oliver should just say "Son", or "William" or another affectionate name, but "Buddy" is not an affectionate name. It's a stupid name to call your own son.  Sorry, /rant

Oliver called him "My son" so many times in the season finale, this board dubbed him "Myson".  Someone did a count, I think he used "william" oly three time and "My son" almost a dozen.

Edited October 15, 2017 by statsgirl