S03.E04: Of Lost Things

[Dejana]

Just refreshed my memory from Voyager about Lord Ellesmere and Geneva. When Jamie brings Lord Dunsany and Isobel to Ellesmere, he and the other groom are served a hot meal in the kitchens, where the very gossipy cook spills all the tea:

In the early days of the marriage, Ellesmere had been very doting and attentive with Geneva, not just ordering her things from London but caring about her physical comfort, too. Everything changed when Geneva started to show, according to the cook: "the shoutings, and the carryings-on" began, with crying from Geneva, " and the both of 'em stampin' up and down and slammin' doors, and 'im allin' 'er names as isn't fit to be used in a stableyard". At one point, another servant seems to have overheard Lord Ellesmere saying (most likely yelling at Geneva) that the child wasn't his. The other Helwater groom wonders how His Lordship could be so sure of such a thing, even if she had been with someone else, and the cook insinuates that there's only one way Ellesmere would know immediately that he wasn't the father. The cook does say she wouldn't know if Ellesmere is incapable, but concluded he is (albeit for different reasons than readers would). This is all in Chapter 15, "By Misadventure", pages 182-183 in the trade paperback edition.

 

I hope the other Jamie/John kiss later in the story isn't going to be cut as well, but there's more ~drama with Claire seeing it, and after already being rocked by the secrets Jamie kept from her since her return. The writers seem to have their own ideas about what's important in the story, though...

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dejana

[IntrovertGal]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I found the pearls being given away and given back extremely odd as well -- especially since we saw that Claire kept the ring Jamie gave her at the stones (you see her put it in the suitcase before she and Frank leave Scotland.  But it's clear to me that that was just a bit of plot necessity.  The writers had to remind the viewers that the pearls exist and who has them so that they are available for pivotal scene in season 4 (when Brianna slams them down on a table to verify that she IS Jamie's daughter by Claire.)

Yes!  Another moment that I hope we get to see paid off in a future season (as it is in a future book.)

Hmmm.  I didn't even miss it.  I always thought that moment was bit of a miss in the books because John's no fool.  He KNOWS how Jamie feels about homosexuality.  He KNOWS  that that kiss was (at best) an act of charity and at worse, something distasteful that Jamie just had to force himself to get through.  I think we're better off without it, especially since there are some fringe elements in the fandom who've been trying to claim that Jamie is bi-sexual.  Best not to give them any fuel for that particular speculation.

Isobel slaps Jamie because she KNOWS he's the baby's father.  And she knows that because Geneva told her that Ellesmere had never lain with her.  So yes it was made clear that their marriage was chaste but not why.  We don't actually know that Ellesmere WAS incapable.  It's possible he had a mistress and simply had no desire for his young wife nor did he wish to sire a child on her.  It's unlikely but since I hate the character I've speculated that he left Geneva untouched in order to cheat her family out of inheriting his estates.  I assumed they'd pass to a distant relative if his marriage to Geneva produced no heir and that that was his intention.  That's me projecting a lot of malice on him but he married a woman under false pretenses (never intending to consummate it) and then attempted the murder of an infant so I think it's fair to say he was a colossal wanker.

I respectfully disagree. I have always loved that scene (including the kiss) in the book because to me it signified that Jamie overcame his prejudice towards gay men (which cannot have been easy given that Jamie is a man of his times and the horrible rape he suffered at the hand of BJR) because he recognised that Lord John was a true friend to him, especially after Lord John turned down Jamie's offer of sex in payment for looking after Willie. So to me, the kiss felt like Jamie's way of conveying all that to Lord John. I never thought that Jamie was bisexual and if those fans who think that Jamie is bisexual are really the reason that Ron Moore & co. left out the kiss, I think that's a shame. IMO show runners shouldn't be swayed by fandom that much, however passionate it may be (if indeed that was the reason, maybe the podcast on this episode will give more insight on that issue).

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

 

 

I hope the other Jamie/John kiss later in the story isn't going to be cut as well, but there's more ~drama with Claire seeing it, and after already being rocked by the secrets Jamie kept from her since her return. The writers seem to have their own ideas about what's important in the story, though...

 

That was a hug, not a kiss.  It was John's tone of voice and the look on Jamie's face that demonstrated to Claire that that was no ordinary encounter.  

[Dejana]

10 minutes ago, toolazy said:

 

That was a hug, not a kiss.  It was John's tone of voice and the look on Jamie's face that demonstrated to Claire that that was no ordinary encounter.  

Yes, technically, "Jamie, head bowed as he pressed Lord John Grey tight in a fervent embrace," guess I filled in that a kiss happened, too! Maybe the writers will move it there, they had the Geneva minefield to deal with here but in a few episodes they might want something "edgy" to happen. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Dejana said:

Maybe the writers will move it there, they had the Geneva minefield to deal with here but in a few episodes they might want something "edgy" to happen. 

God, I hope not. There is already so much in this story.

[Eureka]

I loved this episode. Made me a little misty at the end. I'm glad they altered the scene with Geneva so there was no telling him to stop and him forging ahead, so to speak.

[Nidratime]

I usually don't watch the episode early. I prefer deferred gratification. However, since Poldark is starting tonight and begins at 9:00, while this episode of Outlander was reported to have a 64 minute run time, I decided I didn't want to miss the last moments of Outlander in order *not* to see the opening of Poldark!  (Or, I could have caught Outlander later "On Demand," but anyway....)

I'm surprised Ellesmere didn't try to hurt Geneva during her pregnancy since he was so violent towards the child. Too bad Geneva, once she knew she was pregnant, didn't sleep with the old coot, or get him drunk enough to think they did, but if it's true he was "incapable," then I guess that trying to trick him wouldn't have mattered. I honestly can't remember how this played out in Voyager.

It was interesting they showed Bree fixing the car for Roger. That's a little nugget that, I suppose, helps to point her character in the direction of changing her major to engineering when her background in history has been so emphasized in the show up to this point. That little bit shows her to be more mechanical minded and good with her hands. It's interesting that she falls for a man who is much more like her father ... the father who raised her, that is. However, since her biological father is so competent at making things and repairing things, it draws a connection to him. Jamie was working on a carriage in his timeline and Bree got a car running in hers.

I *am* surprised that John's brother, Hal, was shown to be someone who has loose lips when drinking. Or, maybe he was so upset with seeing Jamie there -- and with John -- that he didn't try and hold back the info. After all, the more people who know Jamie's real story, the likelier he would be dismissed from his post and possibly out of John's orbit.

With "everyone" seeming to know that Willie is Jamie's son, it didn't seem like such a well kept secret. I almost expected to hear that Geneva's mother knew when she started talking to Jamie alone, but I'm glad they didn't go *that* far.

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

Jamie carving a snake for Willie in the opening credits was wonderful.

Roger’s pained reaction to Fiona’s attentions is everything.  Richard Rankin is a treasure.

Loved the “great pile” they used as the setting for Helwater.  I know I’ve seen that stately home in other shows and I look forward to hearing about it in the podcast.  I also look forward to hearing about the weather because it looks like they had almost nothing but overcast days and a lot of “Scottish” weather this time out.  Given how much of this episode was shot out of doors (I assume most of the the interiors at that location are no longer period-appropriate) that weather must have given the production crew fits.

Oooooh, there was a shout-out to “The Scottish Prisoner” (a Lord John book featuring Jamie.)

I loved the invented line where Jamie tells Lord Dunsany that he’s lost two children (after Dunsany says he lost his son at Prestonpans).  It’s a good reminder to the viewers how that loss (and not just the loss of Claire) preys on him and it helps to explain his decision later in the episode to remain with his son even when he is offered freedom.

As much as I’m not a fan of the actress, I have to admit – Bree’s mimicking of Fiona’s accent is dead-on.  And I did like the hint (in the car scene) of Bree’s mechanical abilities.  But in that scene the real stand-out moment is Roger’s stumbling declaration that he does not (repeat NOT) have a girlfriend.  #RichardRankinIsATreasure

The wholly invented scene between Isobel and Jamie discussing horses was made of win.  I loved Isobel’s unknowingly apt line to Jamie about “A cage is still a cage.”  And I love that he tried to do her a kindness in return – attempting to warn that John’s “interests” lay elsewhere and not in matrimony.

When Geneva calls Jamie a “liar” I love his reaction.  At first I thought he was just surprised and affronted to be called that to his face, but now I think it’s because it is both true AND he’s just figured out that she’s flirting with him, which sets off huge alarm bells in his head.

I loved Jamie throwing Geneva into the mud (which is not in the book) and I was greatly amused to see (in the “Inside the World” after-notes) that it caused a problem for the costume crew.  They had to make up five versions of the costume to be sure they could get all the coverage (various camera angles).  I would love to have been a fly on the wall in a room with Ron and Terry when Terry learned about that scene.

Whoa, that whole scene when John’s brother Hal shows up is great.  So. Much. Subtext.

So, when Jamie says “You can watch me [disrobe] if you’d like” that line makes me laugh every time because, let’s face it, he’s not talking to Geneva.  He’s talking to US.

Right, I laughed again a moment later.  Watch Geneva’s eyes when newly-naked Jamie turns around.  She keeps looking at him quite fixedly in the eyes and then her eyes drop lower and she reacts.  Jamie glances away from her reaction and then says “We should get on with this then.”  Those subtle moments are EVERYTHING.  Oh to have been a fly on the wall when this scene was choreographed.

Geneva asks permission before she touches Jamie “there”.  That doesn’t change the fact that she’s blackmailing him into a sexual act (the filthy wee bitch!) but I did like that wee bit of . . . good manners on her part.

Aw.  When Jamie explains the difference between lust and love to Geneva, that’s sad on so many levels.  I hurts (so good) not just because it calls to mind Jamie’s longing for Claire – it’s also sad because we (the viewers) soon learn that Geneva will never ever get to experience true love.  I hope her one episode of lust with Jamie was at least sufficient to fill her spank bank for the following 9 months.

I have to applaud the show-runners decision to remove the issue of Geneva’s “consent” completely from the episode.  Jamie asks before he touches her, he offers to call the whole thing off when she hesitates, and she never utters the problematic word “stop.”  Personally I prefer the book version but I’m glad not to have to deal with the bullshit that would have erupted if it had been filmed exactly as written in the novel.

I laugh out loud every time the clearly pregnant Geneva glances back at Jamie and you see his eyes suddenly glaze over.  You know he’s counting months.  I love how he almost seems to lose his balance for a moment.

And in a similar let’s-all-just-watch-Sam’s-face-and-be-amazed moment:  I LOVE the emotions flickering across Jamie’s face as he holds his son for the first time.  First it’s concern (Is he hurt?), then a flicker of joy (I have a son!) then a growing awareness and horror that he’s just killed a peer of the realm.  Fantastic.

And speaking of Willie, OMG that’s a cute baby! I love that invented scene between Isobel and Jamie and I support the change vs. the book whereby she knows the truth and (apparently) actually makes an effort to let him see the baby.

That scene when Jamie is offered freedom by Lady Dunsany and he turns it down is another example of where I just want to gaze at Sam’s face and be amazed at the changing emotions.

The entire final scene between Jamie and John was terrific.  We got so lucky in the casting of Lord John.  Their chemistry as they tip-toe through the mine-field of that conversation was excellent.

Can I just say how grateful I am for the addition of the line (by Isobel) “We’ll take good care of your son.  I appreciated the fan-service – I NEEDED for Jamie to hear that.

OMG the look on Jamie’s face as he rides away.  Heart=breaking.

OMG Roger holding his toy airplane from season 1 while Brianna flies away on a commercial airliner.  That’s maybe not heart-breaking but . . . <sigh> . . . well played show-runners.

The song over the closing credits just KILLED me and then when I watched with closed captions it was identified as being the work of one of my favorite bands – Walk Off the Earth. (The song is “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall”, which I will be purchasing momentarily.)  Man, my personal the synchronicity with this show is scary.

 

THE BAD

Why is Geneva looking so pissy when they arrived home from Italy?  I suppose I can fan-wank that she’s only recently been informed of her betrothal to Ellesmere but still, it seemed unrealistic that she would not display any pleasure at a home-coming.  They could have waited until the stable scene to signal to us that she’s “difficult.”

Then again, Geneva’s impatience at the stables (which is apparently very well known) also struck me as unrealistic and I can’t fan-wank it away.  I’m afraid this is one of those things (Geneva’s spoiled-brattiness) that the writers struggled to communicate by showing and not telling, but it just didn’t ring true to me.

Ellesmere says, “My sister advised me to seek in marriage a lady less pettish.”  Okay, I consider myself extremely well-read but I had to look that up.  Pettish means “childishly bad-tempered and petulant.”  WTF Ellesmere!  You actually think it’s okay to say that in front of your bride-to-be and her whole family?  More to the point – WTF writers?  Shouldn’t that exchange have taken place between the two men out of ear-shot of his daughters?  I presume this is just another symptom of having to pack so much in the episode but to me, that moment rang false.  Geneva should not have heard that.

Similarly I’m not a fan of the groom-to-be declaring that if a “child of mine had hair that color [red] I’d drown him before he drew a second breath” while standing within ear-shot of his bride-to-be.  Yeah it’s a great bit of foreshadowing to the Earl’s later actions but come ON.  I know the writers needed something blatant to provoke Geneva into formulating – right then – her plan to rob her husband-to-be of her maidenhead.  And I presume the writers want us, the viewers, to understand and even sympathize a bit with this wee trollop who manipulates our hero into a dangerous situation.  But I still dislike the Earl of Ellesmere being so utterly candid about what a miserable person he is during what passes for the “courtship” phase of this arranged marriage.

I cannot believe they chose to stage that most critical of conversations – the one where Geneva blackmails Jamie into her bedroom -- in a heavily trafficked alleyway with multiple servants passing by.  I’m delighted they kept the whole “What are you doing?” / “I’m shoveling shit milady” exchange but come ON.  No way would Geneva have that conversation in a place where they could be over-heard.

 

THE UGLY

Jamie’s hair.  “Nuf said.

 

OTHER

I had speculated that Sam would alter his workout regime between seasons 2 and 3 and go back to the leaner, tri-athlete body he had when he was first cast (he bulked up quite a bit to play season 1 Jamie ye ken.)  I thought they’d do that to signal the passage of time and to give a hint at the impact of his years of imprisonment.  Nope.  Apparently shoveling shit gives you a good upper-body workout because nekkid “Alex” is just as buff and braw as he was in the wedding episode.  Not that I’m complaining.

I’m enjoying imagining the casting call for Geneva.  In addition to age and height and hair color I’ll bet the specifics included a “willingness to film an explicit sex scene virtually nude and the ability to ride side-saddle.” My mental picture of every young actress’s reaction is that GIF of Katniss Everdeen crying “I volunteer.”

Lady Dunsany figured out that Jamie was a paroled Jacobite prisoner.  So she’s smart.  Do we think she really doesn’t know Jamie is Willie’s father?  She hears Lord Ellesmere declare that Willie is a bastard so she must know the actual father is someone on her own estate (where Geneva had more freedom and agency than she would have had as the new bride at Ellesmere).  And yet when she and her friend are watching Willie ride his pony it is Lady Ellesmere who points out how funny it is that Willie “looks like” Jamie.  If she suspected the truth I feel certain she would never say that out loud.

Edited October 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Nidratime]

Quote

The song over the closing credits just KILLED me and then when I watched with closed captions it was identified as being the work of one of my favorite bands – Walk Off the Earth. (The song is “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall”, which I will be purchasing momentarily.)  Man, my personal the synchronicity with this show is scary.

Was that their performance? I know Bob Dylan wrote it in the 1960's.

[WatchrTina]

6 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Was that their performance? I know Bob Dylan wrote it in the 1960's.

Yep.  I just bought it on iTunes.  Gonna go take a walk now and listen to it (because all I've done today is watch Outlander 3 times and write that way-too-long commentary above.)

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Was that their performance? I know Bob Dylan wrote it in the 1960's.

It's funny because I usually loathe Dylan covers, but this one mostly works for me. 

[ElsieH]

5 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Yep.  I just bought it on iTunes.  Gonna go take a walk now and listen to it (because all I've done today is watch Outlander 3 times and write that way-too-long commentary above.)

I wouldn't do that.... I'd be showing all my neighbors the ugly cry lol

[Nidratime]

This is the version they used for the show, I think:

[Glaze Crazy]

This was a lot of necessary plot and character information stuffed into 60-some minutes of episode. I can see that they needed to get a lot of things into the narrative for a lot of future plots over the next 5+ seasons. I was also glad they brought Hal into the story here to establish that he knows and remembers Jamie and that he is also aware of Lord John's friendship with him. In anticipation of Season 8.

At first I found it odd that it seemed almost everyone was well aware that Jamie was Willie's biological father, since it is more subtle in the books, but it did succeed in hitting non-bookreaders right upside the head about it and leaves no room for doubt. I guess. For me, I really didn't see any obvious resemblance between Sam Heugan and the young actor playing William at all, so if I wasn't a book fan I might have needed it to be confirmed this way. After Ellesmere's comment about Jamie's red hair I was afraid they were going to use the same baby that played newborn Brianna and give William red hair too. LOL

I was glad to see the re-jigging of the deflowering scene, having Jamie offer to forego his part of it if Geneva was having second thoughts. This gave Geneva the option to state that she was doing it for herself and thus giving (implied) consent, therefore possible (maybe it was, maybe it wasn't) rape cannot easily be suspected of our hero after all, at least on film.  I'm also glad they kept in the little pillow talk afterwards where Jamie talks a bit about lust/physical reaction to sex vs. love.

 

 

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 

The song over the closing credits just KILLED me and then when I watched with closed captions it was identified as being the work of one of my favorite bands – Walk Off the Earth. (The song is “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall”, which I will be purchasing momentarily.)  Man, my personal the synchronicity with this show is scary.

Killed me too. But in a different way. (Extremely unpopular opinion to follow:) I found it extremely grating and it took my out of the mood of the end of the episode, right quick. I was actually afraid they would be cutting to a shot of Roger in front of the fire, strumming a guitar and singing a duet with Bree. (If they pursue Roger's musical abilities I hope they choose songs suited to Richard Rankin's voice.)  To be fair to the singers covering the song, Dylan's songs, although very good, seem to be hard for others to sing well. Heck, they only work for him because of his gravelly voice and that they are his creations. Just my opinion. It also doesn't help, for me, that Dylan's version was just used in an episode of PBS' new Vietnam War documentary. In a different context and probably the one it was meant for when it was written.

 

5 hours ago, Starla said:

 

Like others, I’m a little confused on how the Claire story will play out from here. I’m guessing Roger will keep looking for Jamie, and will call her with the news that he has found Jamie during the print shop years. Claire will proceed to prepare by selling her house, wrapping up the job at the hospital, and spending some time with Joe. I wonder if we’ll get the “bones” scene. It seems important to tie into the events near the end of the season.

 

I suspect the very obvious scene in the pub, where Claire points out that she's quoted Rabbie Burns' "Freedom and Whiskey gang tegther" to Jamie sets up how they become aware of Jamie's next endevour. In the book this shows up on a broadsheet published by a printer named Alex Malcolm in Edinburgh in 1764-ish that Roger and Bree find. It supersedes Burns' actual writing of this quote, as he is still a baby when Mr. Malcolm apparently prints it. I'm guessing Roger will be the one to find it and recognize how it's connected to Jamie.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Glaze Crazy

[Eureka]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's funny because I usually loathe Dylan covers, but this one mostly works for me. 

There was a version done by Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians that was in the (Tom Cruise) movie Born on the Fourth of July. That's how I recognized it. I'm old enough to remember 80s movies but not original Dylan songs from the 60s, Lol.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Killed me too. But in a different way, I found it extremely grating and it took my out of the mood of the end of the episode, right quick.

The lyrics seemed to fit Jamie's story line a bit, but I thought it was interesting that it was a 1960's song and we were flipping back and forth to the 1960's. Just like in the early season one episodes, we kept hearing bits and pieces of 1940's music. According to Wikipedia, Dylan's song was "built upon the question-and-answer refrain pattern of the traditional British ballad "Lord Randall", published by Francis Child." Funny, that: Lord Randall?!

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Eureka said:

There was a version done by Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians that was in the (Tom Cruise) movie Born on the Fourth of July. That's how I recognized it. I'm old enough to remember 80s movies but not original Dylan songs from the 60s, Lol.

Heh, almost any Dylan song reminds me of my first year in college--which was in the early '90s--many hours were wiled away to the backdrop of Bob Dylan on vinyl. 

4 minutes ago, Glaze Crazy said:

To be fair to the singers covering the song, Dylan's songs, although very good, seem to be hard for others to sing well. Heck, they only work for him because of his gravelly voice and that they are his creations. Just my opinion.

For me, it's generally how many artists try to change up the cadence and rhythm of the song or overly orchestrate it to make it their own...it just doesn't work for me. This one, while more "sweet" sounding than Dylan, at least they kept to the right cadence and the simplicity of a guitar accompaniment.

[Clawdette]

Claire had to get the pearls back so that Bree would have proof when she arrived at Lallybroch, right?  That's wasn't Claire's intention in giving them to Bree but that's how it played out.  If Bree didn't have the pearls, what would the show have used that would have convinced Jenny and Ian of whom she was?

Edited October 1, 2017 by Clawdette

[Petunia846]

The problem is that she shouldn't have had to get them back. She should never have let them go in the first place. Something like that you tuck away in the back of your closet or a safe deposit box if you don't want to see them...not just give it away.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Petunia846

[Future Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Lady Dunsany figured out that Jamie was a paroled Jacobite prisoner.  So she’s smart.  Do we think she really doesn’t know Jamie is Willie’s father?  She hears Lord Ellesmere declare that Willie is a bastard so she must know the actual father is someone on her own estate (where Geneva had more freedom and agency than she would have had as the new bride at Ellesmere).  And yet when she and her friend are watching Willie ride his pony it is Lady Ellesmere who points out how funny it is that Willie “looks like” Jamie.  If she suspected the truth I feel certain she would never say that out loud.

Isn't there a line in the books where John says/think that Lady Dunsany might have known or suspected? I wouldn't be surprised if she did,

[morgan]

While I loved the closing song, I didn't like when it played over Jamie at all.  I don't like "modern" music in his time, except when the 40s stuff would play over Claire when she was first back in time.  Made sense to me then.  Makes sense to me when she hears bagpipes/old music in modern Boston.  But Jamie is a man of his time and so should his music be.

Funny how strongly I feel about it considering I love Peaky Blinders and have zero problem with the modern music there.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Isn't there a line in the books where John says/think that Lady Dunsany might have known or suspected? I wouldn't be surprised if she did,

I don't remember a specific comment from John, but my impression was that Lady Dunsany suspected, if not knew, who Willie's father really was. 

[WatchrTina]

7 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Isn't there a line in the books where John says/think that Lady Dunsany might have known or suspected? I wouldn't be surprised if she did,

Well, you made me look.  I found the scene between Lady Dunsany and her friend watching Willie ride under the watchful eye of "MacKenzie" the groom and she actually says the following: "Oh, yes.  He loves his pony.  We have a terrible time getting him even to come indoors for meals.  And he's even more fond of his groom. We joke sometimes that he spends so much time with MacKenzie that he's even starting to look like MacKenzie."

So the scene in the show was practically lifted verbatim from the book.  I don't think Lady Dunsany would ever say that to a friend if she suspected the truth so I'm going to stick with the theory that she does not know and that her actions on behalf of Jamie are purely out of gratitude for his having saved her grandchild's life.

[AD55]

I almost never cry, but hearing "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall" did me in. I have so many associations with that song, and then the "blue-eyed son" line. Sigh.

Morgan, for the first couple of seconds, I found the use of the song jarring, but I came round because it felt like a bridge to the 1960s--lyrics that fit Jamie's situation and music from Claire's. I totally get why it wouldn't work for everyone, though.

Patty Smith performed a moving and unembellished cover when she accepted Dylan's Nobel Prize on his behalf.

[WatchrTina]

4 hours ago, AD55 said:

I found the use of the song jarring, but I came round because it felt like a bridge to the 1960s

That song WAS a break from the norm for the show in that it went on so long and played under multiple scenes in two time periods.  Bear McCreary has done blog posts in the past about his work on the show.  I'm going to keep an eye out there to see if he comments on this one (he didn't comment on episodes 301 - 303.)

Here's the link to his site if you are curious http://www.bearmccreary.com/#category/blog/

ETA:  I just tweeted him to ask if he'll be doing blog posts this season.

Edited October 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[AD55]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

The song over the closing credits just KILLED me and then when I watched with closed captions it was identified as being the work of one of my favorite bands – Walk Off the Earth. (The song is “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall”, which I will be purchasing momentarily.)  Man, my personal the synchronicity with this show is scary.

 

 

^Thanks for identifying the band! I watched the closing credits closely for the name but didn't see it. (Granted, I'm a bit blurry-eyed at 1:30 a.m.) I'd never heard of them, but I think I'm about to discover a new favorite!

Edited October 1, 2017 by AD55

[Glaze Crazy]

I realized my previous post was heavier on snark and song-choice dislike than on positive compliments. So instead of editing it (again) I want to add some here.

I continue to applaud the casting choices for this series. I'm not very familiar with much of David Berry's other work but he continues to be excellent in this role. The changes on his face while realizing what Jamie is actually offering him in exchange for care of William were sublime and very effective. Also his part of the 3-way non-verbal exchanges between Jamie, Hal and John were very good.

Sam Heugan's excellent portrayal of Jamie continues to be some of the best work done on this series. As a book lover I appreciate his complete commitment to this role and delivering a favorite character to the screen.

The two actresses playing Geneva and Isobel were great in those roles. I also appreciate that both they and the writers of this episode were able to add depth to book characters that didn't have much to work with and were  mostly there to deliver and then raise William (off screen / off page) so he can be available for a future role in the book series.

The scenes in the 1960's seemed to be more of a placeholder at this point. "This is where we are in Claire's part of the story. Still looking for Jamie." That kind of made their part of the story more filler that substance, with the exception of the return of the pearls to Claire and the comment about the Robert Burns' quote heard in the bar. I did LOL at Fiona's popping up with the Dunbonnet comment which sounded like Mrs. Graham apparently somehow knew that he was Claire's Jamie Fraser.

[nodorothyparker]

24 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Isn't there a line in the books where John says/think that Lady Dunsany might have known or suspected? I wouldn't be surprised if she did,

John is pretty sure she does at least suspect.  In his Willie reveal with Claire later in Jamaica he says he believes Lady Dunsany knows but would never say anything that would raise suspicions that her only grandchild might in fact be a bastard of a Scottish criminal rather than the lawful heir of an earl and both estates.  He acknowledges that there was a fair amount of gossip about it when it all happened.  Why she would make the comment that she does about Willie looking like "Mac," I can only presume she either wasn't really thinking at the time or was trying to laugh off the excessive amount of time it was known that Willie hung about "Mac" and the horses.

Normally, I'm not a huge fan of period incorrect music but it didn't bother me here.  It is a show about the fallout of time travel as much as anything and it was a nice easy way to tie the long lingering shots of Brianna and her glowing red hair in the 1960s to the scenes of Jamie riding away from his only other living child.

[morgan]

Watching with my (native Bostonian) husband  now and his head just exploded with the mention of Jeveli's in Boston between Joe and Claire.  Apparently a favorite place of his from way back.  Well done show with the little details!

[theschnauzers]

52 minutes ago, Petunia846 said:

The problem is that she should have had to get them back. She should never have let them go in the first place. Something like that you tuck away in the back of your closet or a safe deposit box if you don't want to see them...not just give it away.

Claire had to something with the pearls, since when she returned through the stones, part of her deal with Frank at the times was to get rid of everything from the 18th century. Mrs. Graham was smart enough to accept them from Claire, and she may have suspected at some future point, Claire might like to have them back. I think Fiona was doing what her grandmother wanted when she returns the pearls to Claire in 1968.

 

Quote

Walk Off the Earth.  “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall”

Apparently written and recorded by Bob Dylan in 1962. This particular cover was released in 2012. Among those covering the song were Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Rod MacKinnon, Leon Russell, Bryan Ferry, and a bunch of others per Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain's_a-Gonna_Fall#Covers

Eithwe Bear or Matthew Roberts must have suggested this. Very interesting choice.

[Eureka]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, almost any Dylan song reminds me of my first year in college--which was in the early '90s--many hours were wiled away to the backdrop of Bob Dylan on vinyl. 

For me, it's generally how many artists try to change up the cadence and rhythm of the song or overly orchestrate it to make it their own...it just doesn't work for me. This one, while more "sweet" sounding than Dylan, at least they kept to the right cadence and the simplicity of a guitar accompaniment.

We are around the same age then, I'm a bit older. But when I was in college I was listening to show tunes and Led Zeppelin. :)

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Eureka said:

We are around the same age then, I'm a bit older. But when I was in college I was listening to show tunes and Led Zeppelin. :)

Oh, I listened to Zepplin and show tunes in college too--and pretty much anything else I could get my hands on (I have a very eclectic taste in music), but my freshman year I had a roommate with every Dylan album on vinyl... . ;)

[nodorothyparker]

I think all of us who were in college in the early '90s had that roommate.  Mine had both Dylan and Zepplin on vinyl.

[unlfan03]

On the re-watch some things that caught me that I didn't miss the first time through but struck me harder this time. Brianna being mechanically inclined was interesting. During the "encounter" scene I noticed that Jamie didn't touch Geneva more than necessary, unlike in scenes between Jamie and Claire where Jamie can't keep his hands off Claire. LJG's comments about "making a trial of it in London" must have been where he met his prostitute spy friend that ended up marrying Rabbie McNabb (right? another of those Gaboldon coincidences) if so I like how the Easter Eggs from the novellas make their way in. Finally as Jamie is riding away the timing of the line "Saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children." was a hint of how/when Jamie finally sees his son again in 15 or so years. Actually that entire verse and who each line was played over could be a post in and of itself, very interesting lyrical foreshadowing.

[Glaze Crazy]

2 hours ago, Nidratime said:

The lyrics seemed to fit Jamie's story line a bit, but I thought it was interesting that it was a 1960's song and we were flipping back and forth to the 1960's. Just like in the early season one episodes, we kept hearing bits and pieces of 1940's music. According to Wikipedia, Dylan's song was "built upon the question-and-answer refrain pattern of the traditional British ballad "Lord Randall", published by Francis Child." Funny, that: Lord Randall?!

Great find, Nidratime. Also interesting in that "Lord Randal(l)" is a Medieval Anglo-Borders song/poem too. The words don't suit for Jamie's situation though, but I wonder if they were trying to make that connection between Dylan's song and this one? Since Jamie is returning home from England (Anglo) across the Scottish Borders. Another one mentioned in the Wiki is "Billy Boy" which is a familiar question-and-answer refrain too. Hmmm. I hope Bear McCreary does post his thoughts on this choice.

[dbell1]

Put me in the group that hated the song. It was a bit too jarring for the scene and I hate when vocals take precedence over dialogue. 

Sophie grates still. Flat acting and no physical resemblance to Jamie. Wish they would recast, but I guess that's not going to happen. 

Not a fan of the change with Geneva, the buik had her threatening Jamie with Jenny's letter, a discovery that could have put several lives in danger. Instead they made it drunk Hal spilling details about the Scot groom? Totally side eying that revision.

Loved that Jamie found peace at Helwater, he had the horses, random chess matches, and a place to worship his stinking Papist idols. Thank you to the writers for adding that scene. I did miss Jamie giving Willie his rosary beads. That was such a beautifully written part of the book.

Loving John Grey, the actor is just nailing this role. 

Claire is a hollow shell of a zombie. So sad to see. I can't wait see her with wild hair and her Scot again.

[theschnauzers]

One last thought about the song choice. Ron Moore could also have suggested it as he is a known big Bob Dylan fan, as attested by his use of “All Along  the Watchtower” in Battlestar Galactica.  And for which Bear wrote a very effective cover. 

So there has to be a BTS story about it, hope we get to hear or read it soon!

Edited October 2, 2017 by theschnauzers

[Wouldofshouldof]

Add me to those who teared up over the song at the end.  Enjoying these episodes each week is like getting to open a present every Sunday :)

[FnkyChkn34]

I guess I'm in a class of my own - I was indifferent to the song at the end.  I guess I thought it was slightly out of place, but didn't really think about it too much.  All I noticed was that it was a different way to end an episode that they don't normally do.

[satrunrose]

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The success of the Willie stuff, like most of this story that featured none of the other recurring characters, rested entirely on Sam's ability to sell it and for the most part he did a really bang up job of it.  The look on his face at the end riding away just killed me as did the stinking papist scene.  Isobel being a more active participant in the story by knowing as opposed to just sort of being there as an substitute mother and marriage object worked surprisingly well, although I still think that if they wanted to play up Willie's emerging resemblance to Jamie, they might have cast a little actor who looked a little more like him.

I thought little Willy actually looked more like Lord John which was interesting. 

[ruby24]

Man, Sophie Skelton's acting has not improved. This is going to be a major problem when Roger and Brianna have to carry storylines on their own, imo.

[TaurusRose]

Add me to the list of people who hated that song. It was manipulative and out of place.

[Renee in CA]

54 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Man, Sophie Skelton's acting has not improved. This is going to be a major problem when Roger and Brianna have to carry storylines on their own, imo.

Agreed - everyone else has such nuance, and she adds nothing to the dialogue she's given. Sigh.

[Adultosaurus]

6 hours ago, Renee in CA said:

Agreed - everyone else has such nuance, and she adds nothing to the dialogue she's given. Sigh.

Do you think it's partly because she's having to manage an American accent and isn't quite good enough of an actress to act at the same time?  This is so petty, but I'm mostly bothered by her brown eyes more than anything :)

[nodorothyparker]

I don't hate her like a lot of the fandom seems to but right now Skelton's emitting a big old blank for me in a cast that has otherwise been so wonderfully spot on.  About the only thing she's giving me is flowy red hair, and we know that could have been manufactured on a better actress.  I try to remember that I'm not exactly bowled over by book Brianna at this point in the story either as she's mostly a collection of Jamie's physical traits and mannerisms that we want to see reunited with him more for Jamie's sake than because we actually care anything about her as a separate character, and that we've only really seen her in two actual episodes where she's been limited to largely reacting to things, but that's only getting me about so far.

[DittyDotDot]

37 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't hate her like a lot of the fandom seems to but right now Skelton's emitting a big old blank for me in a cast that has otherwise been so wonderfully spot on.  About the only thing she's giving me is flowy red hair, and we know that could have been manufactured on a better actress.  I try to remember that I'm not exactly bowled over by book Brianna at this point in the story either as she's mostly a collection of Jamie's physical traits and mannerisms that we want to see reunited with him more for Jamie's sake than because we actually care anything about her as a separate character, and that we've only really seen her in two actual episodes where she's been limited to largely reacting to things, but that's only getting me about so far.

This is why I feel like the actress is fine, but it's the character who is the real issue. I feel the same way about Brianna on the show as I did in the books--she's a thin character that's more plot device than character, IMO. I think it will improve once we she starts becoming her own person and has to start carrying her own storyline more after Claire returns through the stones. I wouldn't say she's ever a very complex or rounded out character in the books, but that's when she started to fill in for me some anyway.

[cardigirl]

The ring that Jamie gave Claire for the 'bairn' before she went back through the stones, didn't the stone burn away?  I thought she was looking for it when she woke up after passing through the stones back to the twentieth century. 

[Quickbeam]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Man, Sophie Skelton's acting has not improved. This is going to be a major problem when Roger and Brianna have to carry storylines on their own, imo.

This. Brianna does some heavy lifting (literally and figuratively) in the stories ahead and I'm not seeing it. Every word out of her mouth sounds like an intro to acting class. 

[Summer]

13 hours ago, dbell1 said:

Claire is a hollow shell of a zombie. So sad to see. I can't wait see her with wild hair and her Scot again.

Yes!  I mean I get it, I really do, why Claire is the way she is but, man, I am sick of mopey, sluggish, helmut haired Claire.  I can't wait to see our sassy, funny, bold, wild haired Sassanach again.  

Loved the episode.  I did find it somewhat odd, though, that Ellesmere freaked out about having a bastard child when the baby was born, he didn't realize that as soon as she started to show?  I know someone mentioned upthread that in the book the servants gossiped about their rocky marriage and how much they fought, it just seemed like his reaction was out of place at that given time.  

I agree with others who have said they most likely changed the Geneva "take it out, it's too big" scene to avoid the inevitable fan backlash, but i kind of LOL'd that they made it PERFECTLY CLEAR to the viewers that Geneva was on board  "Do you want to stop" "May I touch you" "I'm doing this for me'  OK, RDM, we get it, thanks.....I did like the actress who played Geneva very much, my goodness she was beautiful and I felt that she did a very good job navigating that fine line of spoiled/vulnerable.  I loved when she looked up at Jamie and said "I don't know what to do".   

Edited October 2, 2017 by Summer

[CountryGirl]

Pass the Kleenex please...

 

This was one of my favorite episodes of the entire series thus far.