S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Blonde Gator]

5 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I think the kind of man Jon is and all that he has accomplished speak for themselves. He is a child of the north and Stark blood runs through his veins. I think the tension is going to stem from the fact that Jon is a royal heir, has a better claim to the IT than Dany, and is way above Sansa in station. (That last part gives me a happy because she thinks highly of her pedigree and what a joke that her bastard half-brother is really her royal first cousin.)

 

Oh my!  That just made me laugh.  Kind of reminds me of Lady Mary Crawley, at the end of Downton Abbey, when her sister, Lady Edith, who Mary tortured for years by being prettier and married to the heir of Downton, all of a sudden was outclassed at the end......because Lady Edith married a Marquess.  Lady Edith was the highest ranking member of the Crawley family at the end, and henceforth and forevermore would be "walked in" to dinner first.  It must have stuck in Lady Mary Crawley's craw, as I hope Jon's newfound status will stick in Sansa's oh-so-superior craw.  And Arya's going to have a really hard time keeping a straight face at the whole thing.  Win/win.

[Blonde Gator]

29 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

How are they deploying it? So far we've seen three methods, Flinging it with a catapault (the stupid method) Using a distraction and lighting it from a distance ( probably won't work against the undead,  Pouring it in a place where your target will be and using a candle timer. It's more of a last resort type of weapon.

We don't know!  No one at the Royal Confab bothered to mention wildfire.  That's the point.

If it were me, I'd tactically deploy wildfire the same way Tyrion did at the BoBB.  A cleverly set ambush.  But instead of on the water, with a chain for a chokepoint, set the ambush up after the Army of the dead has marched into a deep and narrow mountain pass (kind of like what we saw after the Wall fell, and they poured through the breach).  Bottle them up at both ends, and light 'em up from the flanks.  Preferably with Melisandre used as the trip wire, immolating herself, as her final sacrifice to the Lord of Light.  Basic special forces tactics.  Which are as old as warfare.

[ulkis]

Random thought, but it's funny Jorah told Jon to pass the sword to his children since they will probably be Dany's children too.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ulkis

[ulkis]

12 hours ago, rmontro said:

 Neither the Targaryens that we have seen nor Cersei's children seemed to have any defects that we might associate with incest.  

But it did. Joffrey's madness and the madness of some of the Targaryens was implicated to be connected to incest. That was the impression I got at least.

Quote

I think the tension is going to stem from the fact that Jon is a royal heir, has a better claim to the IT than Dany, and is way above Sansa in station. (That last part gives me a happy because she thinks highly of her pedigree and what a joke that her bastard half-brother is really her royal first cousin.)

Why would that aspect bother Sansa? She didn't pull rank or bring it up to anyone when Jon was chosen King. She never even really has a snobbish moment to his being a bastard in the show, only in the books.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ulkis

[ulkis]

Combined posts.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ulkis

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Instead her dumb plan is to what? Reduce Dany/Jon's chances of winning by fooling them into thinking that Lannister men would provide support? Attack them from behind with Lannister men, Golden company and elephants? What is she going to do when wight elephants advance on KL.

Basically Tyrion/Jon/Dany did not expect that Cersei would be so dumb.

The thing that bugs me most about Cersei's plot is that it renders the actions of our heroes largely irrelevant, after the episode jumped through a bunch of hoops to give them all something to do in the first place. 

I suppose we're meant to assume that Cersei's original plan was just to lie about accepting the truce immediately, after laying down some minor terms so as not to look suspiciously eager. But then dumb, noble Jon refused to agree to her "Just stay neutral" demand, so she was forced to pretend the deal was off, counting on her brother to chase after her and convince her otherwise.

Which means that Jon's and Tyrion's big moments didn't really matter. They were both just minor turns in Cersei's boring plan to be evil some more.

Now, at least Jon's plan had some meaning for his relationships with his allies, particularly Dany, as he showed them how deeply he values honor and truthfulness. But Tyrion's big moment played solely to Cersei, who was scamming him the whole time. So everything that seemed to be about him being persuasive and perceptive were instead about him being a gullible rube. And everything that seemed to be about Cersei revealing her vulnerability was just her lying for personal gain. What's the point of twisting the episode into awkward circles for the sake of a character beat that end up being so completely empty and meaningless?

[anamika]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

Why would that aspect bother Sansa? She didn't pull rank or bring it up to anyone when Jon was chosen King. She never even really has a snobbish moment to his being a bastard in the show, only in the books.

She did not pull rank or bring it up because the houses had already overlooked her trueborn status and made Jon king. What could she do but go along with it?

She continues to be really snobby on the show. She thinks Jon should consult with her on everything, ask her advice and do what she asks. Or she gets pissy and talks down to him in front of everyone. I can't seem to let this go, but she compares him to Joffrey ffs - just because he did not listen to her. She does not care for Davos' opinions and disrespects Brienne - let's remember that Brienne is heir to house Tarth and is only there because she pledged her services to Catelyn.

There's a lack of respect there for Jon as KITN because she thinks she knows better for some reason. She's good at doling out unsolicited advice to Jon but not good at taking it. She rudely shuts down Brienne, snarks at LF and is annoyed that she is stuck managing WF while Jon is off at Dragonstone trying to get allies. Not to mention,  when the Northern Lords protest against Jon, instead of throwing her support wholeheartedly behind him and presenting an unified front, she just says that Jon is doing what Jon thinks is best - trying to keep the Northern Lords on her side, not Jon's.

I know that she is Lady of Winterfell and all that, but Winterfell is also Jon's home, where he grew up - he is Ned's eldest child. Couldn't she insist that as king he should have the main Lord's chamber? Her snotty - ' fall down on your knees and thank me! Jon lost the battle and I am solely responsible for winning back Winterfell' does not help either. Shows what she really thinks of the Northern houses making Jon King after winning back WF.

There's a reason for why Arya gets all up on her. Because she recognizes that Sansa is not fully on Jon's side and would rather be the one ruling WF as opposed to Jon.

Sansa's rude and discourteous behavior is sort of funny, because in the books she is supposed to be all about the courtesy. On the show,  Jon knows more than her about how to interact with leaders - look at how he talked to Dany at Dragonstone in front of everyone in this episode - 'It's your decision, but I would suggest that you do this'. Same with Tyrion advising Dany. But Sansa is all like - 'I AM RIGHT. DO WHAT I AM TELLING YOU' to Jon in front of everyone.

As it stands show Sansa would make a terrible ruler. The only thing she did this season was grumble to LF about grain, tell a soldier how to fit armor with leather, want children punished for the actions of their parents, fall for LF's lies and manipulations, argue constantly with Jon, disagree with everything Jon says, undermine Jon in front of the houses, brag about unearned victories while dismissing the efforts of others, send Brienne off to isolate Arya and make sure that she has the support of the Northern houses to become QITN in case Jon fails in his efforts or dies.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anamika

[arjumand]

36 minutes ago, ulkis said:

But it did. Joffrey's madness and the madness of some of the Targaryens was implicated to be connected to incest. That was the impression I got at least.

Didn't GRRM say in one (or more) interviews / commentary to the books that the incest was meant to cause the Targayens' downfall? All that inbreeding was to keep the bloodline pure, etc, but it resulted in mental and physical defects, so you end up with a family which, as Aemon said, when a baby is born the gods flip a coin. 

And about Aemon, Archmaester Marwyn says:

Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The thing that bugs me most about Cersei's plot is that it renders the actions of our heroes largely irrelevant, after the episode jumped through a bunch of hoops to give them all something to do in the first place. 

I suppose we're meant to assume that Cersei's original plan was just to lie about accepting the truce immediately, after laying down some minor terms so as not to look suspiciously eager. But then dumb, noble Jon refused to agree to her "Just stay neutral" demand, so she was forced to pretend the deal was off, counting on her brother to chase after her and convince her otherwise.

 

I saw that as fitting with one aspect of the books (and the show) - that you can make elaborate plans which all go to shit because you forget that things go wrong; as Doran says to Arianne Martell:

 We princes make our careful plans and the gods smash them all awry.

I also believe that Cersei was expecting Jon to balk at her "Just stay neutral" demand, because he wouldn't trust her not to attack the North once the truce was ended, because they've got the least amount of manpower at that point, not having much to start with. The fact that Jon had already pledged to Dany just made it easier for her to storm off. See, if Cersei had said yes immediately, no one would have believed her. She was always planning to find a way to say no at first and then agree, to make it more convincing.

Which brings me once more to what I hate most about Cersei, which I've said before - that she does stupid things and doesn't learn from them. Her downfall started when she armed the Faith and brought back the Faith Militant - then when her back is against the wall, she goes nuclear. Now she's inviting not one but two incredibly strong and dangerous armies into the city - the Ironborn (and not any Ironborn, but Crazy Euron's Ironborn) and the Golden Company (what happens when the money runs out, and the Iron Bank uses them against her?). I'm starting to think that when Euron tells her to sit down and shut up, or the Golden Company turns against her, she'll go nuclear again - and this time she really will blow up the city.

[patchwork]

The Golden Company are mercenaries why would they stick around after they find out about the army of the dead? I'm expecting them to have one big battle/pay day before running back to Essos.

Now that the NK has brought down the wall (kinda) shouldn't his zombie AOA start to affect the Seven Kingdoms? 

[ElizaD]

Rhaegar + Lyanna is a total mess that's never going to be explained satisfactorily, in a manner that would answer all questions about the timeline, Lyanna's consent, the legality of Rhaegar's marriages, and how they expected their houses to respond to the events. It's a perfect example of how GRRM can be just as guilty as D&D of plot holes and plot-induced stupidity. R+L triggered the chain of events that caused the rebellion and led to Jon's birth - that's it. There's no master plan, and Rhaegar and Lyanna are thinly sketched fantasies only a small step above poor Elia who existed solely to be horribly fridged (GRRM doesn't even care enough to give a name to her mother, the ruling Princess of Dorne, so I doubt we'll ever get the tiniest canon hint about what Elia thought about R+L and the political situation). I don't even try to make sense of it because to me it's such a clear example of GRRM's world not always being that deep and characters making stupid choices just because he needs to get the plot moving or has to find some excuse for a key backstory exposition moment. It would be nice if everything about R+L made sense, but expecting that would be a waste of time when I don't get the feeling that there's even the slightest buildup to any complexity apart from the parentage/legitimacy/potential prophecy reveals. GRRM obviously only intends the surface twist of "they were in love!!! no rape (no matter what readers point out about Lyanna being kept isolated from her family and how it would have made sense for her to change her mind at some point)!", so I'm far more interested in which of the theories about Jon and Dany's reactions turns out to be correct.

[WebosFritos]

Wildfire seems far too unstable to reliably use it against the white walkers. But maybe it will come back into play next season, probably as a last stand. 

 

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The wig was awful and the clothes were very ugly. They recycled Viserys's wig and left it at that. Farfaraway posted stills for the episode and while the details were interesting with the belt having dragons, the sword having a dragon's head, he looked like they put him in a potato sack. And Lyanna zero direwolves on her dress that I saw. The belt she wore and that thing around her neck were leaves. I don't know if that's some kind of a nod to the "Maiden of the Tree", I just thought it was weird that her House sigil was nowhere in sight. 

I think they are weirwood leaves. I know the costume team used them on Sansa's southern outfits and it would be a nice nod to the old gods. Thank you for the link, I love looking at the details on these costumes. These pictures are so high definition you can see a bee next to Lyanna's hair and a fly on Dany's coat. Heh!

 

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Unfortunately, Dany roasted Sam's family alive...so the comfort about certain implications of the revelation might not be there.   Sam's probably not going to be all "Wooooo....you're a Targaryen?" after he gets that word.  

ETA:  Part of his family.  The part that would have produced Tarly heirs, unfortunately.  Maybe with the wall down at least all oaths to it are moot because ...poor Sam. 

You're right, I'd forgotten Sam still doesn't know about his family. But I love his relationship with Jon and I think even if he really ends up hating Dany, he won't hold her actions against Jon. They are one of the healthiest friendship in this show so I'm hoping that Sam will be able to help Jon deal with the revelation. 

[Cirien]

18 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

If D&D come out and say that GRRM told them that Jon's name is Aegon, then I'll accept it and I'll bitch and bitch about it and wonder what kind of fucking crazy pills she was on. As far as I remember, the show never mentioned the names of Rhaenys and Aegon, they were always referred to indirectly as the children that were murdered when Aerys fell. 

As it stands, for me, the front runners for the names are Aemon and Daeron and I've become pretty convinced lately that Daeron could be the name.

They were specifically mentioned in the Hound's trial in Season 3 

 

"I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne"

[WaltersHair]

Speaking of Lyanna's marriage and subsequent baby. When Ned picked that baby up, he was bald as Uncle Fester. How was he going to explain it if Jon had taken after his father's side started sprouting silver hair?

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

Not sure even that works. According to what we know from book and show, Rhaegar met with Lyanna around Harrenhal when she was supposed to be on her way to Brandon's wedding.  Rhaegar meets with her - how?  Did Lyanna bolt from her escorts on horseback? Did he and his Kingsguard disguise themselves as bandits and pretend to kidnap her, but were recognized? Or did Rhaegar and his KG just openly walk up to her, and she joined them willingly, and the escorts made up the story about the abduction because they were too cowardly to admit to Rickard they let her go with the prince without a fight? Whatever happened, Brandon soon after heard about Lyanna being supposedly abducted by Rhaegar while he was traveling to Riverrun himself. He apparently lost Rhaegar's trail, so he posts off to KL, where he thinks Rhaegar is going - a journey of many days - days during which he would have many chances to send ravens to his father spreading HIS version of what happened.

Meantime, Rhaegar and Lyanna travel ALL the way to Dorne to get married - which is an even longer ride than to KL. Why so far? Who knows. But that's a LOT of time for letting a false rumor spread unchecked. Hell, by the time they arrive at Dorne Brandon might already be arriving at KL. Rhaegar and Lyanna get married - as per the show by the High Septon/Pope analog himself, probably because he's the only one with the authority to grant an annulment (show) or dispensation for polygamous marriage (which hadn't happened for many years even among Targaryens). 

Now, here's the moment Rhaegar should have made sure everyone in Westeros knew what really happened, as well as getting himself up to date on everything that had happened since he fled with Lyanna. He's wedded and bedded his new wife - broadcasting this fact with a flock of ravens to every major Westerosi stead will make certain that the marriage and consummation is public knowledge and can't be undone. He also ought to remain in contact to make the apologies and offers of restitution by raven that he WILL eventually have to make in person. Does he do this? 

What we hear he does is go off to the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. He stays there while Brandon is imprisoned in KL, while Rickard is called down to KL to answer for his son's behavior, while Rickard arrives at KL and is burned to death at his trial, while Aerys demands that Robert and Jon be beheaded, while Arryn raises his banners and Robert's Rebellion starts, while  Aerys gets Elia and her kids from Dragonstone as hostages, while Ned makes his way back north and calls his own banners, while several battles were fought - how many months was that? We know that the Tower of Joy has some way to get information - the KG know about Robert's usurpation when Ned got there. We know that the seat of the Daynes was nearby the tower. But somehow Rhaegar NEVER manages to communicate from there the fact of his marriage to anyone - much less send the messages of apology and offers of restitution he owes everyone he's offended with his actions.

Now MAYBE Varys has enough influence over the High Septon to keep him from talking about a marriage even to prevent a war. And MAYBE Rhaegar did order some ravens sent to advise people of what he had done, and Varys had someone at the Daynes' seat intercept them.  But that doesn't absolve Rhaegar of the obligation to follow up on those messages from Dorne, from the North, from Dragonstone, from the Vale and every other place he owes communication to. IMO, the only way to explain how he could be unaware of the hell the country was falling into was to deliberately cut himself off from it. So from where I'm standing, it looks to me like he kept his marriage secret or he made such a feeble effort at spreading the word that it amounts to the same thing.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think Rhaegar had more of the family insanity than he ever let on, and it manifested itself as a megalomaniac certainty that what he wanted MUST be certain to succeed. I can't imagine how else he could have acted as carelessly as he did.

These questions are why we need someone who was with Rhaegar from the start and why I'm not convinced Arthur Dayne died at the ToJ. He died metaphorically, but not literally. What was the name of that tower before Rhaegar renamed it? The Tower on the Prince's Pass? Traitor's Tower? The King's Tower? That place where the Young Dragon was murdered under the peace banner? 

I'm not even sure Jon Connington can tell us much that's not filled with resentment towards Elia and Lyanna because of his jealousy. 

I tend to think that whatever happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna is a mix of a few of the snippet stories we got, but I think that the Prince of Dragonflies and Jenny of Oldstones story is as close to the truth as anything. 

The other part is the way the War of the Five Kings Started. 2 lies, a kidnapping and the manipulation that led to Ned's execution (I'm having a hard time spelling execution this morning).

6 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Who's claiming anything, I just was pointing out how much lords like Brandon are hypocrites, they fuck who they want noble or lowborn but god forbid someone does that to their sister and suddenly it's the worst crime imaginable. Do you think he would have married Cat if Jason Mallister had fucked her first.

You leave Jason Mallister out of this! He is dealing with his own problems.

3 hours ago, arjumand said:

Didn't GRRM say in one (or more) interviews / commentary to the books that the incest was meant to cause the Targayens' downfall? All that inbreeding was to keep the bloodline pure, etc, but it resulted in mental and physical defects, so you end up with a family which, as Aemon said, when a baby is born the gods flip a coin. 

And about Aemon, Archmaester Marwyn says:

Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted.

One of the things that goes beyond the incest is that the more they marry into their own family, the more isolated they are. They're not making alliances with anyone. Aegon V tried to make alliances with other Houses but his children screwed him over by running away and giving up the crown for a woman or marrying each other or being gay. I think more than anything, them marrying each other isolated them politically. 

As far as what Marwyn said, I think he was merely talking about Aemon being a Targaryen and that's why he couldn't be trusted. I think that's what he meant when he talked about Aemon's blood. Aemon died at 102 years old. The archmaesters had decades to figure out that Aemon was a very normal guy. 

26 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Speaking of Lyanna's marriage and subsequent baby. When Ned picked that baby up, he was bald as Uncle Fester. How was he going to explain it if Jon had taken after his father's side started sprouting silver hair?

Catelyn and Cersei thought Ashara Dayne was the mother. It's the best cover story if that were to happen.

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, ulkis said:

Why would that aspect bother Sansa? She didn't pull rank or bring it up to anyone when Jon was chosen King. She never even really has a snobbish moment to his being a bastard in the show, only in the books.

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Sansa has always come across as a snob, looking down her nose at the underlings, IMO; even when she wasn't blatantly acting out. Practically every episode she's proclaiming her title as if anyone could forget. So, whether or not the series goes there, it will never get old knowing Jon outranks her. I just hope that malicious bitch Catelyn gets the news wherever her sorry ass is. Bwahahaha!

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Not sure even that works. According to what we know from book and show, Rhaegar met with Lyanna around Harrenhal when she was supposed to be on her way to Brandon's wedding.  Rhaegar meets with her - how?  Did Lyanna bolt from her escorts on horseback? Did he and his Kingsguard disguise themselves as bandits and pretend to kidnap her, but were recognized? Or did Rhaegar and his KG just openly walk up to her, and she joined them willingly, and the escorts made up the story about the abduction because they were too cowardly to admit to Rickard they let her go with the prince without a fight? Whatever happened, Brandon soon after heard about Lyanna being supposedly abducted by Rhaegar while he was traveling to Riverrun himself. He apparently lost Rhaegar's trail, so he posts off to KL, where he thinks Rhaegar is going - a journey of many days - days during which he would have many chances to send ravens to his father spreading HIS version of what happened.

Meantime, Rhaegar and Lyanna travel ALL the way to Dorne to get married - which is an even longer ride than to KL. Why so far? Who knows. But that's a LOT of time for letting a false rumor spread unchecked. Hell, by the time they arrive at Dorne Brandon might already be arriving at KL. Rhaegar and Lyanna get married - as per the show by the High Septon/Pope analog himself, probably because he's the only one with the authority to grant an annulment (show) or dispensation for polygamous marriage (which hadn't happened for many years even among Targaryens). 

Now, here's the moment Rhaegar should have made sure everyone in Westeros knew what really happened, as well as getting himself up to date on everything that had happened since he fled with Lyanna. He's wedded and bedded his new wife - broadcasting this fact with a flock of ravens to every major Westerosi stead will make certain that the marriage and consummation is public knowledge and can't be undone. He also ought to remain in contact to make the apologies and offers of restitution by raven that he WILL eventually have to make in person. Does he do this? 

What we hear he does is go off to the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. He stays there while Brandon is imprisoned in KL, while Rickard is called down to KL to answer for his son's behavior, while Rickard arrives at KL and is burned to death at his trial, while Aerys demands that Robert and Jon be beheaded, while Arryn raises his banners and Robert's Rebellion starts, while  Aerys gets Elia and her kids from Dragonstone as hostages, while Ned makes his way back north and calls his own banners, while several battles were fought - how many months was that? We know that the Tower of Joy has some way to get information - the KG know about Robert's usurpation when Ned got there. We know that the seat of the Daynes was nearby the tower. But somehow Rhaegar NEVER manages to communicate from there the fact of his marriage to anyone - much less send the messages of apology and offers of restitution he owes everyone he's offended with his actions.

Now MAYBE Varys has enough influence over the High Septon to keep him from talking about a marriage even to prevent a war. And MAYBE Rhaegar did order some ravens sent to advise people of what he had done, and Varys had someone at the Daynes' seat intercept them.  But that doesn't absolve Rhaegar of the obligation to follow up on those messages from Dorne, from the North, from Dragonstone, from the Vale and every other place he owes communication to. IMO, the only way to explain how he could be unaware of the hell the country was falling into was to deliberately cut himself off from it. So from where I'm standing, it looks to me like he kept his marriage secret or he made such a feeble effort at spreading the word that it amounts to the same thing.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think Rhaegar had more of the family insanity than he ever let on, and it manifested itself as a megalomaniac certainty that what he wanted MUST be certain to succeed. I can't imagine how else he could have acted as carelessly as he did.

That type of deep dive for detail might be possible -- in the books.  Based on the wait, hold, wait, hold, wait, hold, okay, execute, use and pacing of the LF storyline onscreen, I will not be surprised if onscreen we get an  explanation complete with trail of breadcrumbs leading right to Varys.  Onscreen Varys, like LF, has had murky motives, an apparent means of teleporting about the kingdoms, and not much going on since he arranged the Dornish and Highgarden alliances.  This season has had him hanging around with virtually nothing but a tense exchange with Danaerys and another with Melisandre, both of which were filled with foreshadowing of betrayal, death -- and an apparently frightening message.

I understand the challenges the explanation faces.  I just think in this world of push to the end of a massive saga in a very compressed timeframe and broad brushstrokes he's the likely way to "tidily" explain the situation in a way that allows a narrative they're likely to be heading for. 

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Tyrion actually talked to the pyromancers in Season 2, the "Harrenhall" episode.   He instructed them to make more wildfire.  It wasn't just a store of old wildfire.  I don't know why the pyromancers wouldn't still be there, merrily making more and more, that is their one an donly job.  I am sure Qyburn knows about the wildfire and the pyromancers, he is Cersei's Hand, and who else would have set up the explosion in the Sept last season?  Tyrion knows Qyburn knows, how could the new hand not know what the old Hand knows?

Tyrion's problem is that he doesn't have any pyromancers.  The only ones he knows about are in the Red Keep, if they're still alive.  But it's a Valyrian art, and there are plenty of remnants of the Valyrian empire....if he only asks the question of the right person...."where can I get wildfire?".

What if Sam read about Wildfire in a book from the restricted section at the Citadel -- or what if it's in one of the tomes he brought with him to WF?

[Misplaced]

On 8/28/2017 at 4:36 PM, domina89 said:

Oh Tyrion, why do you make me so nervous?!? I really don't have a good feeling about where his loyalties lie.  I think Tyrion is looking more and more like Dany's betrayal for love.  Tyrion feels immense guilt over the things he has done both directly and indirectly to his family and I'm not sure he can reconcile that within himself.  I think we have seen Tyrion's plans blow up in his face this season because he is conflicted and isn't giving Dany the best advice.  Couple that with Dany openly seeking advice from Jon (and listening to him) and you create a situation where Tyrion starts to feel more and more underappreciated.  That is so dangerous because Tyrion sought out Dany specifically because he believes in her and she made him feel wanted and important- something he has always craved but has never really had until now.  If he starts to feel pushed aside, then I question whether or not he will stay true to her.  If it comes down to a choice, I think he will choose his family, and that makes me fear for Dany and Jon, too, by extension.  

 

I can't see Tyrion 'going back' to Cersei - he basically said in their tete-a-tete that he'd kill her if he could.  I can absolutely see his conflict over Jaime.  I can sorta see a conflict over the as-yet-unborn Jaisei (for lack of a better name), but again he doesn't have Bran's WeirwoodWeb and he is more likely to focus on what is in front of him, which will be .... Jaime, I think, in season 8.  That will be a terrific conflict for Tyrion because it puts him between Dany and Jaime (bad) and Jon and Jaime (because of Bran, so bad) and potentially if we all end up in Winterfell, Sansa and Jaime (bad) and Arya and Jaime (bad) and I'm sure there are a few other Bads in there. 

Dany's betrayal for love, in my opinion, is more likely to be Missandei (for  the sake of Greyworm) or Greyworm (for the sake of Missandei).  There has to be some reason other than "aww isn't that cute" to have that particular pairing, particularly given the out-of-nowhere conversation with Davos and Jon about "What if you wanted to leave?" early in the season. Now that is (those are) a betrayal(s) that will deeply, deeply wound Dany.  She already has some misgivings about Tyrion's loyalty to his family, recall, so a betrayal from him for the Lannisters isn't going to surprise her THAT much.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced
Clarifying words ....

[Francie]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

This is a fantasy world though, and I don't think we can apply 21st century Earth norms to Westeros.   Obviously, the inbreeding worked for the Targaryens in that it maintained the purity of their bloodline, and that seems to be important because of their ability to bond with and control the dragons.  Neither the Targaryens that we have seen nor Cersei's children seemed to have any defects that we might associate with incest.  

Emphasis added to underscore the conflict in your logic. 

If you want to apply this fantasy world's norms, then you have to accept the defects that they recognize as a consequence of incest. And in their world, the birth defect attributed to incest is madness.  Further, to your point, Joffrey seemed to have suffered from this madness -- this cruel and sociopathic behavior. 

If you want to apply our modern norms, and focus on the physical birth defects being the most recognized negative consequence for children of incest, then you have to recognize that we outlaw that conduct, in large part, for that reason.  

You can't pick and choose from modern day world and fantasy world like it's a combo package. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Francie

[Bryce Lynch]

23 hours ago, huahaha said:

Agreed. First cousins share 12.5% of their DNA on average. Fifth cousins are down to 0.05%.

Also, aunt and nephew is a closer relationship than first cousins. Jon and Dany share about 25% of their DNA -- as much as half-siblings. That is pretty squicky. Their case is made worse because their shared DNA is a result of generations of inbreeding and clearly has developed issues already.

The common DNA is part of the issue with incest, but I think the familial relationships are at least as important, if not more important.  For example, Jon and Sansa share only 12.5% of DNA as 1st cousins, but I think a marriage between them would be much ickier than one between Jon and Dany, because Jon and Sansa were raised as brother and sister.  An even clearer example would be siblings by adoption, who grew up in the same household and where raised as siblings, but had no blood ties.  That would probably be more disturbing than a marriage between 2 full siblings or half siblings who were separated from birth, did not know each other growing up and didn't realize they were related. until after they were married.

[Misplaced]

On 8/28/2017 at 6:09 PM, Oscirus said:

 So no, Lyanna is no victim, she's just a spoiled brat who caused the near destruction of her house and the death of untold people because a handsome boy was into her.

Funny you should say that, because the actress who plays her (Aisling Franciosi) has very convincingly played a LOT of spoiled brats in her career, so I  was automatically irritated by Lyanna Stark the first time I saw her onscreen! 

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/29/2017 at 1:56 AM, Andromeda said:

I have a strong feeling the whole "annulment/second marriage" plot for Rhaegar and Lyanna is an afterthought, probably one George had and passed on to D&D. It just doesn't fit that well with the history as we've been told it. I always thought Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna but she fell for him anyway, so Jon's not a rape baby, but having her complicit in destroying Elia's marriage seems really un-Stark-like. Certainly not like something the sweet young woman Robert and Ned wax nostalgic about would ever do.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have so much blood on their hands because neither had the honor to put their own desires second to the good of the nations and families who relied on them.

But George/D&D wanted Jon to be the "legitimate" heir, even though it seems unnecessary to me. As a bastard, he could still have a claim on the throne if he were the lone offspring of the crown prince. (There's a reason Joffrey had all the Baratheon children killed, except Gendry who escaped.)

I think making Jon legitimate makes a big difference.   If he were a bastard, Dany would still clearly have the rightful hereditary claim to the Iron Throne.  

Making Jon/Aegon, the true heir turns Dany's situation completely on its head.  When she started out, she had a strong hereditary claim (once Viserys was killed) and nothing else...no power, no money, no army, no ships, no experience.

Now she has great wealth, ships, mighty armies, dragons, she has proven herself as a conqueror and a ruler who can inspire and lead, but it turns out she does not have hereditary claim.  After accomplishing so much to demonstrate she deserves the throne, she will soon find out that she is not entitled to it.  

It should be very interesting to see how she and everyone else reacts to this.  Will she decide that lineage doesn't matter and she deserves the throne?  Will she bend the knee to Jon/Aegon?  Will she marry him and have his son, who will become King?   Will Jon even want the throne?  Will she betray him to steal the throne?  Will someone around her take upon themselves to try to kill Jon to give her the throne?

[Ottis]

21 hours ago, Misplaced said:

On 8/28/2017 at 7:02 AM, Ottis said:

if Bran was able to see all the details around LF, why not have him see Cersei's true plan, or what the Night Army is up to ("they have a dragon!), or geez, the future?  And yet he could see all Sansa and Arya described, but not Jon's heritage?  For a guy who sits around being mystical, he doesn't see as much as you would think.

To be fair, the dude is surfing randomly through time -- I think he has to focus on something to actually see it.  Once Sam says "hey, can you see that?!", he looks for it.  The way I see (hah - see what I did there?) his character is completely unmoored from his 'real' time unless someone firmly anchors him in it.  And also....he knows they have a dragon now, right?  Wasn't that last scene of Bran plugged into the weirwoodwebs meant to indicate he sees Viserion Ice?  

On 8/28/2017 at 7:02 AM, Ottis said:

BTW, wasn't the wall strong not only because of its size, but because it was bound with magic? What happened to the magic?

Fire Dragon, fire magic (from south of the Wall), turns into Ice Dragon, ice magic, big and bad enough to counter the magic of the Wall, or at least that's what I guessed.   

All possible and reasonable, to be sure. My issue is, we shouldn't have to wank that hard to make it fit. This isn't David Lynch! Yet.

21 hours ago, Misplaced said:

I wondered about that, and also wondered if Dany couldn't release him from his oath.  But if Jon swore to be Switzerland, then when (not if) Cersei attacked Dany, he couldn't intervene.  Also Cersei knew he wouldn't be Switzerland against the Lannisters: they killed Ned.  She was lying through her very perfect and pretty teeth at all points in any case.  

I don't think it had to be that complicated. Jon could agree to stand down until the white walker threat is dealt with and no longer, and Dany could have allowed him to agree to it with a nod of her head. 

20 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

That supports my point, @screamin , doesn't it?  If you're engaged in a relationship that has to be kept secret, you know you're up to something slimy. 

Coming in late and half-assed here, but ... it might mean that, while you don't think there is anything wrong with what you are doing, you know society would look down on it and you would pay a price.  That's sociopathic but certainly possible and IRL lots of people do it. about various personal activities.

[Hana Chan]

41 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The common DNA is part of the issue with incest, but I think the familial relationships are at least as important, if not more important.  For example, Jon and Sansa share only 12.5% of DNA as 1st cousins, but I think a marriage between them would be much ickier than one between Jon and Dany, because Jon and Sansa were raised as brother and sister.  An even clearer example would be siblings by adoption, who grew up in the same household and where raised as siblings, but had no blood ties.  That would probably be more disturbing than a marriage between 2 full siblings or half siblings who were separated from birth, did not know each other growing up and didn't realize they were related. until after they were married.

There was that whole thing when Woody Allen first got together with his current wife. Even though she was not in any way biologically related to him, she was the adopted daughter of his long time partner and he spent years as a father figure in her life. The ick factor has never gone away even though they've been together for many years now.

But no matter how we cut it, Jon's love life is starting to look like a Maury episode. Maybe he'll just wait until Lady Mormont comes of age.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

they are aunt/nephew and Dany's parents/ Jon's grandparents were siblings, if they have kids, there's a very good possibility that one of them could *literally* be a three headed dragon. (just sayin')

The family tree would be interesting.  Their son would also be Jon's cousin (his Aunt's son), and Dany's grandnephew.

It reminds me of the scene when Lady Olenna was trying to figure out what the Lannister/Tyrell family tree  would have looked like after Tommen and Margeary and Loris and Cersei were married.  

[MrsR]

Quote

What's the point of twisting the episode into awkward circles for the sake of a character beat that end up being so completely empty and meaningless?

ACTING!

[benteen]

Rhaegar was a piece of shit towards his family so I can see him naming his next, "perfect" son Aegon.  I don't know why Lyanna went along with the name although she seems to have been stupidly in love with Rhaegar.

I mentioned this earlier but Cersei not bringing up the wildfire makes perfect sense to me.  She had no intention of truly helping Dany and Jon so she sure as hell isn't going to tell them about her own WMD, the wildfire.  Someone noted that will be her last line of defense if the White Walkers reach King's Landing.  Cersei couldn't care less about the people of King's Landing so it would be kind of hysterical if he self-serving nature ended up saying them all.

Also note that Dany doesn't reveal to Cersei that the White Walkers killed one of her dragons, even though that might have helped her case (if Cersei was rationale).  She was concealing information too from an enemy she didn't trust.  Specifically a vulnerability the dragons had to a weapon of the Night King.

Edited August 30, 2017 by benteen

[MissLucas]

I thought Cersei (who did notice the missing dragon and drew the right conclusion) did not mention wildfire because she has Qyburn (with or without any remaining pyromancers) secretly working on a wildfire-flamethrower to be used against dragons and pesky Dothrakis. If it can double as anti-WW measure all the better for her but she's not going to advertise it.

Edited August 30, 2017 by MissLucas

[Misplaced]

OH!  I *just* twigged to this:

Season 6, Ramsey Bolton: "Do you like games, little man?  Let's play a game."
Season 7, Littlefinger: "Sometimes, when I try to understand a person's motive, I play a little game."

Ouch, ouch.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced

[stillshimpy]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

This is a fantasy world though, and I don't think we can apply 21st century Earth norms to Westeros.  Obviously, the inbreeding worked for the Targaryens in that it maintained the purity of their bloodline, and that seems to be important because of their ability to bond with and control the dragons.  Neither the Targaryens that we have seen nor Cersei's children seemed to have any defects that we might associate with incest.  

 

 

But the Targaryens do suffer from the signs of inbreeding within the actual books.  The line about the coin being flipped every time a Targaryen is born.  They run towards madness that can render them incapable of functioning -- one tried to drink wildfire in order to become an actual dragon -- so it is present within the story as a concern. 

It's present within the story on the show too.  Viserys, the Mad King, some of Dany's more deranged moments "Fire cannot harm a dragon"  she says as she watched her brother die and it was said with fascination. 

Having Dany burning Tarlys alive should end up being significant because it is reminiscent of the Mad King and it's not the first time she's done it, either.  

But as it pertains to the revelation about Jon, since Sam is the person who played the exposition fairy to Bran's all-seeing if-he-goes-and-looks Three Eyed Raven and his father and brother both died at her hands, I think it's going to end up being discussed particularly when Dany turns out to be knocked up.  

Man, the background on when Lyanna and Rhaegar met just makes them worse in my eyes.   She barely knew him?  Oh, jeez.  

[Hana Chan]

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair). The character gets so idealized as being the best at everything and the best looking that this makes him... well, human. And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

[TVbitch]

In case anyone is interested: 

Was Sansa just playing Littlefinger the whole time? Was Arya in on it since her return to Winterfell? How did Bran get involved? Did the Stark sisters nearly kill each other? According to Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran Stark in the show, Sansa's storyline was not as manipulative as all that -- she really did fall under Littlefinger's thrall and came dangerously close to killing Arya. We just couldn't tell because the scene explaining all that was cut from the finale. "We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran's door and says, 'I need your help,' or something along those lines," Hempstead-Wright told Variety. "So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she's like, 'Oh, shit.'"

Edited August 30, 2017 by TVbitch

[Constantinople]

30 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair)

It was kind of creepy how much he resembled Viserys, though not surprising

[stillshimpy]

46 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

1

The fanart was inspired by the story that discusses Rhaegar in, I personally found, downright annoying terms.  That silver-haired fucker, who set aside a wife because of a malfunctioning womb in order to find one that could spit out a baby to fulfill his prophecy was fairly obviously a complete bastard, no matter how many "he had the soul of a poet, gave away his minstrel money, probably sang like a lark and fucked like a stud" details they throw in there, that's the bottom line for me.  

He declared a wife too broken to bear his children so the story on the TV has it that he annulled their marriage and it really doesn't matter to me if Elia was all "Please, with my blessing" or the abandoned, fragile queen because that's disgusting on every known level.  "Your parts don't work for me any longer ...buh-bye" is gross.  

It's also pulled from history because that's precisely what Henry VIII did to Catherine of Aragon and then he -- this is not an exaggeration -- set her up in a drafty castle hoping she'd die of the damp.  For real, the only wife he treated halfway decently was Anne of Cleves because she had the sense to say, "Yup! Never consummated! Annul away!" because when Catherine of Aragon didn't quietly die Henry moved on to fucking killing his wives.  Anne apparently took note and he gave her a generous allowance and a good place to live.  So it's possible that Martin will simply combine those aspects for Rhaegar, Elia will have been willing and it still will have gotten their children murdered so fuck him, I say. 

But he's actually annoyingly bewitching in the tale.  Cersie was besotted.  Lyanna was so bewitched she also got her family murdered and a lot of the country with her (so fuck her too, love is not an excuse for cosigning on atrocities) and then there is Connington, who was also simply lovesick for Rhaegar.  

It would have been nice if they could have found someone to stick a wig on that called to mind Dany, instead of Viserys because the guy needed to be the sort of fellow that the audience might think, "Lyanna still sucks, but at least she wasn't blind."  

This story also went way far out of its way to establish that Dickon Tarly was made of goodness and that Dany should have recognized that, instead she burned him alive as he held his father's hand like a child.   

I'll be a little surprised if that doesn't come up with Sam and Jon because it's a freaking repeat of what the Mad King is supposed to have done to the Starks.  In the story on the screen none of the dead Starks are fleshed out so the audience doesn't know (if they haven't read the books) that Brandon was horrid and Rickard had questionable motives, to say the least.  

I really don't think we're meant to view Lyanna sympathetically.  Too much of Oberyn (rendered entirely adorable for the TV and leaving out his nastier side from the book) yelling about his sister being raped, murdered, split in two and her tiny children slaughtered for the implication to be "Aw, isn't it dreamy?" 

So I think that casting someone who is demonstrably NOT Orlando Bloom in a wig -- and that poor man's looks are taking a pasting while being an actually good looking guy, he just isn't "I can see someone losing their damned mind over his looks" special-- was intentional.  It serves as an echo to Sansa's silliness about Joffrey, even after she shouldn't have been able to maintain the fiction in her head. 

Smiling beatifically while being married to a guy who dumped his wife, who had a baby young enough to still be nursing so that we can't miss he's been recently fucking her too, as if she's living the dream is wince-inducing.  It makes sense as a way to imply that Lyanna was being foolish to the nth degree without having to dig out the backstory.  Then lying there dying, smiling so happily at Ned while asking him to do somehting for her that will ruin his life or at least his reputation, is also another marker of questionable judgment.  To be able to make the request, Lyanna has to know about Robert's rebellion and the slaughter of Targaryen babies. 

That last is important.  She knew that Robert would murder a baby ...how?  Rhaegar's other kids had to be dead and she had to know about it. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Katsullivan]

22 hours ago, doram said:

Sansa should be QitN. She's the first-born true-born child of Ned Stark and before season 7, she had no other true born brothers alive. She won the Battle of the Bastards by Jon's own admission. The fact that Sansa was not declared Queen, that Arya thinks it traitorous for Sansa to even imagine herself as Queen, and that Sansa supporting Jon's claim is regarded as her duty ---- are all the things that would have made Jon a Mary Sue... If he were female.

Thanks for pointing this out. 

I am no Sansa fan and I think her actions at BotB are very suspect ---- but it's canon that she's credited for the victory over Bolton. So why wasn't she considered Queen in the North by her own merit? Why did the Northern Lords only consider her this season as a reaction to Jon letting them down? 

23 hours ago, doram said:

If the genders were reversed and Jane was the Super-Special Love child of 2 magical bloodlines with the potential of having 2 magical creatures who becomes heiress to the Throne above Daeron, the exiled Prince who lived through homelessness and slavery and freed slaves and conquered  nations and has been amassing armies to reclaim his father's throne....

 

Only to fall in love with his niece and concede his claim to her because she's the rightful heir...

 

Jane would be called a Mary Sue and the fans would riot.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Jon is a Mary Sue, if we're going by the definition of this character as a "highly idealised perfect" character because yeah, you can claim he made a few mistakes, etc etc but what are the far reaching consequences of those mistakes, any way? 

At this moment, he's poised to become King of Westeros - a title he never asked for or fought for or wanted - which is textbook Mary Sue. That super-speshul person that gets everything that their rival fights for and never gets. He has the love of the most significant female character in the story, and everything that comes with her - her magic, her dragons and the loyalty of her armies. He has not one, but two magical bloodlines. Of all the 5 Stark children, Jon is the only one who still has his direwolf by his side. He will soon claim a fully-grown dragon that will just become loyal to him because of His Magical Blood. Dany had to lose her husband and child and take the chance of being burnt alive in a pyre to hatch the dragon eggs. Then she nursed the baby dragons, and suffered through their adolescent phase, and people still mutter that she wasn't a good mother because she didn't show enough "sadness" when Viserion died.

But everyone expects Jon to just stretch out a hand to pet Rhaegal and be able to fly him. 

Yep, Jon Snow is as Mary Sue as they come --- but with one important exception as @doram pointed out. He's the male protagonist. Ergo, he cannot be a Mary Sue. 

[Bryce Lynch]

19 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Doesn't anyone who was at the Battle of Blackwater Bay know about wildfyre?  I think Davos does, certainly.  Bronn?  They may not know where it is stored or how to make it, but neither do Cersei or Tyrion.

I would think it would be common knowledge throughout the 7 Kingdoms and beyond, that wildfire was used to destroy Stannis's fleet at Blackwater.  It would also be widely known that Cersei used it to destroy the Sept of Baelor.

I believe Jaime, Cersei and Qyburn know that in addition to the the cache that was under the Sept of Baelor, the Mad King had hidden caches of wildfire under buildings all around KL, including under the Red Keep.  I presume that Qyburn probably located most or all of these caches.  

I believe Hallyne and the Alchemist Guild are still around, so the knowledge of how to produce wildfire would still exist, and I would think Qyburn would have little trouble reverse engineering the stuff.

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm sorry  but  you don't  get to claim woman's rights if you abandon your family for a handsome prince that you barely knew for a day.

Yes, you do. You can make mistakes and still have rights, and besides, she's right. Lyanna didn't have a vote in whether she married Robert. The only way to marry her choice was to run away.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

That type of deep dive for detail might be possible -- in the books.  Based on the wait, hold, wait, hold, wait, hold, okay, execute, use and pacing of the LF storyline onscreen, I will not be surprised if onscreen we get an  explanation complete with trail of breadcrumbs leading right to Varys.  Onscreen Varys, like LF, has had murky motives, an apparent means of teleporting about the kingdoms, and not much going on since he arranged the Dornish and Highgarden alliances.  This season has had him hanging around with virtually nothing but a tense exchange with Danaerys and another with Melisandre, both of which were filled with foreshadowing of betrayal, death -- and an apparently frightening message.

I understand the challenges the explanation faces.  I just think in this world of push to the end of a massive saga in a very compressed timeframe and broad brushstrokes he's the likely way to "tidily" explain the situation in a way that allows a narrative they're likely to be heading for. 

On the show, Jaime and Varys would be the only two people who would have a connection to Rhaegar, or am I missing someone? I'm not counting Cersei in this because she'd be in KL.

54 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair). The character gets so idealized as being the best at everything and the best looking that this makes him... well, human. And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

God no! I don't get the Orlando Bloom looks. 

I had a bigger problem with the wig than I did with the actor himself, tbh. That wig just looked very dirty and they didn't bother modify it even a little bit. 

[BitterApple]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Thanks for posting. I had no idea what Peter Dinklage was going for in that scene so this was insightful so was the explanation of Sansa and Arya's hot mess of a story.

I'm happy they clarified it as well. I guess it makes sense considering Tyrion's batting average has been shit this season and even Daenerys is starting to question whether he's undermining her campaign for the Iron Throne. I think he's worried about being demoted, lol.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

On the show, Jaime and Varys would be the only two people who would have a connection to Rhaegar, or am I missing someone? I'm not counting Cersei in this because she'd be in KL.

God no! I don't get the Orlando Bloom looks. 

I had a bigger problem with the wig than I did with the actor himself, tbh. That wig just looked very dirty and they didn't bother modify it even a little bit. 

Varys also had a significant connection to Aerys, and at that point an entire network of little birds.  Who knows what type of wrenches he might have been able to throw into the works at the time, causing all sorts of chaos?

[domina89]

I just wonder how much prophecy BS Rhaegar told Lyanna to convince her to leave her family and run away/elope with him?  She was a young girl and I could see her getting swept up in the idea that she could be a part of something greater than herself- something that could potentially save all the realm if their child became Azor Ahai.  If he was constantly feeding that to her, then it makes sense that she didn't consider the immediate ramifications of their actions.  It still doesn't excuse it, but she may have been maneuvered by Rhaegar and convinced of the truth of it herself.  It's going to be crazy, though, if Rhaegar was right all along and Jon is the one who either destroys or drives back the Night King.  Will all the pain they caused be worth it in that case?  

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair). The character gets so idealized as being the best at everything and the best looking that this makes him... well, human. And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

To me the only acceptable Rhaegar would be David Bowie in Labyrinth. I'd forgive a great deal from Jared the Goblin King - though I hope I would have the fortitude not to run off with him if he'd just dumped his wife and newborn baby Muppet.

Edited August 30, 2017 by screamin

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, doram said:

How is Dany's execution of the two men who volunteered to die more "mad" than Stannis burning his own daughter to win a battle or than Cersei blowing up the Westeros's version of St Peter's Basillica and all the people in a ten-mile radius of it to target a few enemies?

It never fails to amaze me that Dany's choice of punishment automatically equals she's mad in some folks' mind.  She's got a temper and when pushed she uses her arsenal. I can relate. I have a temper, that's why I would never own a gun. And while I'm a thousand times better at managing it (now that I am a wise and mature adult),  I've been guilty of acts of violence in my youth that could have landed me in jail. It's by the grace of God, that I never seriously hurt someone or became familiar with the legal system. When I look back at my more extreme behavior I know I was kind of scary, but I was never crazy. I just didn't take crap off of people and if they needed a smack upside the head to see my point, I was happy to give it. 

So from my personal experience, I don't think Dany is mad. She's still young and getting a handle on things. I give her props for knowing herself and managing her tendency towards rashness with deadly results, by surrounding herself with wiser and cooler heads.  That said, she is still fighting for the IT and she has to deal with people like the stupid Tarlys.  Those fools were begging to die, so she granted their wish.  Tyrion's continued whining about that is tiresome and he really needs to STFU.

Edited August 30, 2017 by taurusrose

[YaddaYadda]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Varys also had a significant connection to Aerys, and at that point an entire network of little birds.  Who knows what type of wrenches he might have been able to throw into the works at the time, causing all sorts of chaos?

taking this to season 8 speculation.

[Misplaced]

On 8/29/2017 at 4:53 AM, tennisgurl said:

 

I do think its interesting that they seemed to parallel the wedding flashback with another terrible marital decision involving a Stark, with the wedding of Rob and Talisa, which I`m not sure what they are trying to say. Are they saying these are both romantic, star crossed lovers, or brainless idiots who threw away their responsibilities to their people to get some?

Whereas the only thing I could think of during the wedding flashback was that Martin basically stole the words of the ceremony directly from the chorus to "La Vie en Rose." 

Which makes a certain amount of sense, because those two had a super-sized pair of rose-tinted glasses on.  (And so did Robb and Talisa!)

I really hope we get a more fulsome background story, whether in season 8 or (*shudder*) in the rumoured-prequels.  It's very unsatisfying as is.  

[Mabinogia]

Dany is probably the least "mad" person perusing the crown. But she is a victim of assumptions due to her family history. If her last name weren't Targaryan no one would bat an eye at her killing two enemies that just tried to kill her and refused to bend the knee. It is far less egregious than any reason Cercei has come up with to kill anyone. And they weren't helpless innocents. They were men who chose to die. Just because she used the most efficient weapon she had to kill them doesn't make her mad. it makes her smart. Because after that display the other men folded like a house of cards.

[Bryce Lynch]

17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

It never fails to amaze me that Dany's choice of punishment automatically equals she's mad in some folks' mind.  She's got a temper and when pushed she uses her arsenal. I can relate. I have a temper, that's why I would never own a gun. And while I'm a thousand times better at managing it (now that I am a wise and mature adult),  I've been guilty of acts of violence in my youth that could have landed me in jail. It's by the grace of God, that I never seriously hurt someone or became familiar with the legal system. When I look back at my more extreme behavior I know I was kind of scary, but I was never crazy. I just didn't take crap off of people and if they needed a smack upside the head to see my point, I was happy to give it. 

So from my personal experience, I don't think Dany is mad. She's still young and getting a handle on things. I give her props for knowing herself and managing her tendency towards rashness with deadly results, by surrounding herself with wiser and cooler heads.  That said, she is still fighting for the IT and she has to deal with people like the stupid Tarlys.  Those fools were begging to die, so she granted their wish.  Tyrion's continued whining about that is tiresome and he really needs to STFU.

I saw Dany burning the Tarlys as a calculated decision, not a temper tantrum.  She gave them the option of bending the knee, they refused.  Tyrion brought up sending Randyll to the Wall, and he said Dany had no authority to send him there. (which might technically be true, but he could have sworn to "volunteer" in exchange for his life).  She decided they were not going to take prisoners, so she had them burned with dragon fire.  Personally, I thought beheading would have been better, as it would have minimized the "like father like daughter" talk.  But, I think she made a conscious decision to kill them more dramatically to send a message.  A questionable choice, but not out of madness or rage, IMO.  

[TaurusRose]

21 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I am no Sansa fan and I think her actions at BotB are very suspect ---- but it's canon that she's credited for the victory over Bolton. So why wasn't she considered Queen in the North by her own merit? Why did the Northern Lords only consider her this season as a reaction to Jon letting them down? 

Because it doesn't matter if it's canon, Sansa's behavior here was highly suspect; underhanded and petty, as in she was still drinking the LF koolaid.  She should have TOLD Jon that the knights of the Vale were available and sent for them immediately. Instead, she went behind his back and called for them with the clear purpose of getting all the credit and some public annointment from the lords/ladies of the north. It was a straight up dick move, the kind that LF is known for. The fact that the plot backfired more than warmed my Sansa hating heart, it was like 4th of July fireworks.

I think the Sansa sour grapes fail to take into consideration the selfishness or the true motivation behind Sansa's behavior in BoTB. Her constant whining about Jon and sense of entitlement really does make her feel like Cersei lite.

I'm pretty sure that GRRM doesn't think of Jon as a Mary Sue character or has written him that way, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion on that score.

ETA: The only people suggesting that she should be QiTN were Royce from the Vale and that weasel Glover. Both were shown whispering with LF who was using them to stoke Sansa's resentment. The majority of the lords were not present and there is no reason (yet) to believe they would turncoat and dance to LF's tune. If LF had lived and succeeded, even if Sansa somehow managed to betray Jon, gain all of the north's support and be named queen, she would only be a puppet.  LF would be the one calling the shots.

Edited August 31, 2017 by taurusrose

[ulkis]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

She did not pull rank or bring it up because the houses had already overlooked her trueborn status and made Jon king. What could she do but go along with it?

I suppose she could have told them that if she wasn't proclaimed Queen she would tell Littlefinger to take his men back to the Vale. 

Probably would not have worked, but she had that leverage.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ulkis

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

Was Sansa just playing Littlefinger the whole time? Was Arya in on it since her return to Winterfell? How did Bran get involved? Did the Stark sisters nearly kill each other? According to Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran Stark in the show, Sansa's storyline was not as manipulative as all that -- she really did fall under Littlefinger's thrall and came dangerously close to killing Arya. We just couldn't tell because the scene explaining all that was cut from the finale. "We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran's door and says, 'I need your help,' or something along those lines," Hempstead-Wright told Variety. "So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she's like, 'Oh, shit.'"

If that's true then it's good they cut the scene because it makes Sansa look like a complete and utter fool on par with Jon.  It's one thing to be oblivious, it's another to trust the guy you've said can't be trusted.

The reason I call Jon a fool is the full text of the message he sent:

Sansa,

Cersei Lannister has pledged her forces to our cause, as has Daenerys Targaryen. And if we survive this war, I have pledged our forces to Daenerys at the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. We are both coming to organise the defence of the realm.

Jon Snow. Warden of the North.

Omit the second sentence, drop warden of the north and it's OK.  That's a decision you might want to explain in person rather than just casually dropping it in.