S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[BitterApple]

10 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Have we seen Sansa grow much after (what to me was her defining moment) walking down the garden path with Margery, and they are talking about life and Margery realizes that Sansa is a "dear, sweet girl"  who hasn't a clue about sex and how things work in the KL world?

We saw her being abused, but that is a physical loss of innocence without an accompanying mental leap as to how the games are played.

I remember that scene well, and for me it hit home just how far out of her league Sansa was in King's Landing. What the hell was Ned thinking? 

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Have we seen Sansa grow much after (what to me was her defining moment) walking down the garden path with Margery, and they are talking about life and Margery realizes that Sansa is a "dear, sweet girl"  who hasn't a clue about sex and how things work in the KL world?

We saw her being abused, but that is a physical loss of innocence without an accompanying mental leap as to how the games are played.

I think we have seen her have the accompanying mental leap. She seems to have a pretty good understanding of the game and shows a very capable hand at administration on a practical level beyond the usual domain of a Lady of a House. She understands how Littlefinger plays his hand, and how Cercei plays hers. 

In addition, I don't think her rape and abuse can be put down to a mere "physical loss of innocence." She learned how to survive the threat of death and abuse day in and day out - one does not remain innocent under those circumstances. Plus, she earned her bones by killing Ramsay - not something an innocent does. At the moment, I'd say she's leaps and bounds beyond Jon in understanding how the game works.

I've not been a fan of Sansa, but I think she's earned her place as a potential leader.

[ennui]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

evil always has an objective that has some kind of logic.

Sometimes it's to punish. The Night King has been around for 8,000 years; plenty of time to seethe and be angry over what was done to him.

[paigow]

Gendry gave the hammer to Tormund before leaving...somehow The Hound ended up with it,,,but then zombies got too close, so he threw it away and used sword / daggers.

The Hound was occupied loading / impaling zombie prisoner onto Drogon so he could not have carried the hammer...I only mentioned this because Gendry now has another reason to complain....

[Macbeth]

16 minutes ago, paigow said:

Gendry gave the hammer to Tormund before leaving...somehow The Hound ended up with it,,,but then zombies got too close, so he threw it away and used sword / daggers.

The Hound was occupied loading / impaling zombie prisoner onto Drogon so he could not have carried the hammer...I only mentioned this because Gendry now has another reason to complain....

That hammer wasn't made of Valerian steel.  Gendry's a blacksmith.  He can make another.  Might as well make a few.  The Hound and Tormund would probably prefer a hammer  to use against the wights.

[Calamity Jane]

15 minutes ago, paigow said:

Gendry gave the hammer to Tormund before leaving...somehow The Hound ended up with it,,,but then zombies got too close, so he threw it away and used sword / daggers.

The Hound was occupied loading / impaling zombie prisoner onto Drogon so he could not have carried the hammer...I only mentioned this because Gendry now has another reason to complain....

I believe you mean, Gendry now has another reason to whinge. 

34 minutes ago, paigow said:

 

[Lady S.]

16 minutes ago, ennui said:

Sometimes it's to punish. The Night King has been around for 8,000 years; plenty of time to seethe and be angry over what was done to him.

I have to wonder if people who get hung up on this also wonder what the monsters in horror movies' motives are and why the protagonists don't try to negotiate with them. Because both this episode and Hardhome were deliberately framed like horror scenes for a reason. The WWs are not human villains, they're a symbolic evil, an existential enemy. The forces of merciless winter personified, death itself, and slavery (whaddya know? Dany's old cause!) of humankind and all other animals even after they're dead. Beric laid it bare for Jon here, the great enemy is Death and the only cause the heroes can fight for is Life itself. So the Night King wants to conquer all of Westeros and make it into his own personal winter wonderland, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

[CletusMusashi]

When do they say he's 8000 years old?

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Lady S. said:

 So the Night King wants to conquer all of Westeros and make it into his own personal winter wonderland, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

[Interior: HBO Production Office]

Night King: What's my motivation?

George RR Martin: WTF?? You are EVIL!

Night King: I have no lines...how do I communicate with the audience?

Benioff: You want lines?? How about "Behold my icy spear of EVIL"

[enoughcats]

And GRRM writes a 400 page novel, the story of the Night King, and all the pages  are snow white. 

[TaurusRose]

16 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think we have seen her have the accompanying mental leap. She seems to have a pretty good understanding of the game and shows a very capable hand at administration on a practical level beyond the usual domain of a Lady of a House. She understands how Littlefinger plays his hand, and how Cercei plays hers. 

In addition, I don't think her rape and abuse can be put down to a mere "physical loss of innocence." She learned how to survive the threat of death and abuse day in and day out - one does not remain innocent under those circumstances. Plus, she earned her bones by killing Ramsay - not something an innocent does. At the moment, I'd say she's leaps and bounds beyond Jon in understanding how the game works.

I've not been a fan of Sansa, but I think she's earned her place as a potential leader.

Knowing how the game works doesn't make her a leader.  Neither Cersei nor LF are leaders.  They are egotistical and power hungry despots. They pursue power for power's sake, not to do anything particularly good or noble with it.  And, if anything, I think she's beginning to understand that what works in KL doesn't work in the North. Her KL education may help her deal with the biggest threat at the moment, which is LF, but not so much when dealing with Manderlys, Mormonts, Karstarks and Umberlys.  Running Winterfell and carrying out Jon's orders (because no matter what people think, Jon had put a plan in place) doesn't mean she's qualified to run a kingdom, if that's what you mean. Jon is a leader and I think Sansa has learned from him and realizes that leading is hard.  I daresay her little showdown with Brienne made her realize exactly where Jon was coming from when he pulled rank on her about the castles she wanted to give away to unknown loyalists after BoTB.

Edited August 24, 2017 by taurusrose

[Isazouzi]

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

OT:  To keep ruling the universe.  The Empire is, well, an empire.

Well, that sounds like Cersei!

 

15 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

 

He explicitly tels us in Empire: "To end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

Chaos to install order... sounds like LF to me.;-)

15 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I have to wonder if people who get hung up on this also wonder what the monsters in horror movies' motives are and why the protagonists don't try to negotiate with them. Because both this episode and Hardhome were deliberately framed like horror scenes for a reason. The WWs are not human villains, they're a symbolic evil, an existential enemy. The forces of merciless winter personified, death itself, and slavery (whaddya know? Dany's old cause!) of humankind and all other animals even after they're dead. Beric laid it bare for Jon here, the great enemy is Death and the only cause the heroes can fight for is Life itself. So the Night King wants to conquer all of Westeros and make it into his own personal winter wonderland, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

Well, I don't watch horror movies, so there's that. Besides, I don't see the NK as a monster per say. I know he's supposed to be a metaphor for many things, that it's all symbolic, and that I shouldn't think too much about it, but it's not that easy for me, because he's not some mindless creature, he's not The Nothing from The NeverEnding Story. He was once human. He's now a humanoid creature, a sentient being with a goal in mind and a method to achieve that goal. He was turned by the Children of the Forest, tried to conquer Westeros and was defeated thousands of years ago by the CotF and by humans, and now he's back at it again.

I know you're right. I didn't like what Beric said, but it's still true. I guess I'm naive like Jon, wondering what the point of all this could be, when there's no point. And it doesn't matter because we won't get any other answer, the NK won't win and we won't see him in his personal winter wonderland, as you say, sitting on his ass doing nothing because there's no one left to turn and nothing left to do.

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Benioff: You want lines?? How about "Behold my icy spear of EVIL"

I predict 1 episode in season 8 will have no lines, just close ups of different actors emoting their feelings to the audience intercut with wide shots of the icy wasteland :P

[ennui]

16 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

When do they say he's 8000 years old?

I read it somewhere. This fan Wiki gives his age as 12,000, so there's that.  http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Night_King

[The Companion]

I know the Night King represents some sort of looming evil, but looking at the world from his perspective, you could definitely tell a story of a leader who is trying to bring peace and stop terrible acts from occurring. His primary contact that we have seen with humans is picking up babies who were abandoned by their own father. He was created to stop an invasion that involved murdering the Children of the Forest (right? I am a little fuzzy on that). If he has kept up with politics since then, he will see a line of rulers who are willing to kill people for power and petty squabbling among families that leads to wholesale murder and mayhem. I am not saying being a mindless wight seems all that awesome, but you can say this for them, they seem to feel no fear or pain and they don't get caught up with power, money or prestige. The humans don't exactly come off as the good guys. 

I do wonder what would happen if you tried to make an alliance with him or recognized his authority. Would he make you a White Walker? Can he even communicate? Also, how much do the wights know? They seem to be fairly mindless and he seems to have some measure of control over them. Is there a risk in taking one South? Can he see through them?

I don't know how much explanation we will get, but it should definitely be interesting.

[GraceK]

19 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I know the Night King represents some sort of looming evil, but looking at the world from his perspective, you could definitely tell a story of a leader who is trying to bring peace and stop terrible acts from occurring. His primary contact that we have seen with humans is picking up babies who were abandoned by their own father. He was created to stop an invasion that involved murdering the Children of the Forest (right? I am a little fuzzy on that). If he has kept up with politics since then, he will see a line of rulers who are willing to kill people for power and petty squabbling among families that leads to wholesale murder and mayhem. I am not saying being a mindless wight seems all that awesome, but you can say this for them, they seem to feel no fear or pain and they don't get caught up with power, money or prestige. The humans don't exactly come off as the good guys. 

I do wonder what would happen if you tried to make an alliance with him or recognized his authority. Would he make you a White Walker? Can he even communicate? Also, how much do the wights know? They seem to be fairly mindless and he seems to have some measure of control over them. Is there a risk in taking one South? Can he see through them?

I don't know how much explanation we will get, but it should definitely be interesting.

I think it would be a very funny twist ending it the NK thinks he's the hero of this story the whole time.  :)

[SchitHappenz]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I think it would be a very funny twist ending it the NK thinks he's the hero of this story the whole time.  :)

I've been thinking along the same lines. 

The NK hasn't been mindlessly slaughtering people in the name of freedom, or for a title. 

NK for the Control of the 7 Kingdoms for me 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I think it would be a very funny twist ending it the NK thinks he's the hero of this story the whole time.  :)

Makes sense - everyone thinks they're the hero of the story. Even the worst people. I mean, he's resurrecting all these poor dead people and animals, right? LOL

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Knowing how the game works doesn't make her a leader.  Neither Cersei nor LF are leaders.  They are egotistical and power hungry despots. They pursue power for power's sake, not to do anything particularly good or noble with it.  And, if anything, I think she's beginning to understand that what works in KL doesn't work in the North. Her KL education may help her deal with the biggest threat at the moment, which is LF, but not so much when dealing with Manderlys, Mormonts, Karstarks and Umberlys.  Running Winterfell and carrying out Jon's orders (because no matter what people think, Jon had put a plan in place) doesn't mean she's qualified to run a kingdom, if that's what you mean. Jon is a leader and I think Sansa has learned from him and realizes that leading is hard.  I daresay her little showdown with Brienne made her realize exactly where Jon was coming from when he pulled rank on her about the castles she wanted to give away to unknown loyalists after BoTB.

Nope. That wasn't what I meant. I never said she was qualified to run a kingdom and don't see her as queen. I said she was a potential leader. As, perhaps, the liege lady of the North (or whatever feminine version of Ned's title would be), once Jon's Targaryian lineage is revealed. As you so aptly pointed out, there is a big difference between being a ruler and being a leader. There are many leaders, at many levels.

In any case, I was responding to the following comment "We saw her being abused, but that is a physical loss of innocence without an accompanying mental leap as to how the games are played." I believe it has been shown more than once that Sansa has indeed made this leap. But as the saying goes, mileage varies.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Clanstarling

[SourK]

This whole mission was confusing, but the part that confused me most was where the redshirts came from. I seriously never even knew they were there until they got killed. Otherwise, this felt very much like a video game to me -- wander around the designated area until you find the thing you're questing for. Exploit a glitch where the enemies can't attack you if you stand in a certain place and then let your party rest and recover. Two of your guys randomly have fire powers and you can't use them to stay warm because that's not their intended function. You can't attack the main guy, just because. You have to defend from the horde for a certain amount of time and then there's a cutscene to advance the plot.

On 8/21/2017 at 6:21 AM, Daisy said:

Also why can't Dany have babies? Like she keeps saying she can't, but how does she know she can't? I'm pretty sure something like that would have been seen on screen, yah?

I've always been a little bit iffy on whether she's saying she won't have children after what happened to her last time, or she can't have children, but I think both are possible. I mean, a witch put a spell on her uterus to turn her last kid into a monster while she was giving birth. That's got to mess stuff up.

On 8/21/2017 at 0:48 PM, phoenix780 said:

I interpreted Sansa sending Brienne away differently.  I don't think Sansa is thrilled that Brienne is charged with protecting both Stark girls, and with Brienne away there's no chance she can intercede to protect Arya if Sansa has to take her out. Whatever's going on I hope they resolve it relatively soon, or make it more interesting.

Same. I feel like I need a chart to figure out who's play who at Winterfell. Littlefinger wanted Arya to see the note that Sansa wrote and wanted her to think that Sansa was trying to hide it. It also seems like he wanted Sansa to send Brienne away so she could make a move against Arya, but didn't want to make it look like that's what he was doing -- I get that from the way he kept saying Lady Brienne was sworn to both of them and would have to intercede if one tried to betray the other. I also think there's a possibility that he faked the letter from King's Landing (like, why would Cersei need Sansa to be there if Jon is already coming? Why would Cersei even care?).

Sansa, I think, wants to make a move against Arya and is taking Littlefinger's advice -- and I don't think she's necessarily fooled about it; it's possible she got his intended message and just decided to go along with it because he wants her on the throne and she wants it too.

Arya is the one I don't know WTF to think about except that she's all creepy now. It kind of makes sense to me that she is this way, since she hated Sansa in season one and hasn't seen her since. On the one hand, I want to say she should be clever enough to see that Littlefinger is her main problem, here, but, on the other hand, there's always been a division where Arya is more like her dad and Sansa is more like her mom -- one of them is good at political stuff and one's not. It might be a case where Arya's only real skill is killing people, and she doesn't see what Littlefinger's up to. Or she might be trying to trick everyone. Who knows?

Is there any chance the dagger she gave Sansa is the one Littlefinger tried to give to Bran? Because that seems significant if there is. Also, any chance she drags some rando into a coat closet and steals their face so she can spy? She's definitely the wild card in this situation.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I mean, he's resurrecting all these poor dead people and animals, right? LOL

And he doesn't have to worry about providing food, munitions, or shelter to his hoards.  

Not that we've seen him emote worry as he surveys his realm.

[ennui]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

Is there any chance the dagger she gave Sansa is the one Littlefinger tried to give to Bran?

I believe it's the same dagger. LF gave it to Bran, Bran gave it to Arya, and now Arya gave it to Sansa.

[Bcharmer]

He should be dead by now. But he's not. His secret, revealed.

[lucindabelle]

On 8/23/2017 at 8:37 PM, ennui said:

Sometimes it's to punish. The Night King has been around for 8,000 years; plenty of time to seethe and be angry over what was done to him.

Just not enough. Sorry. 

Nor do I think "bringing order"

is a plausible objective.

its not what genghis Khan, Hitler, Caligula wanted. I don't buy it.

its sheer fiction.

its not a real DRIVE like the drives given to protagonists: survival! Love! 

 

What do you get at the end of it?

if you're an actor what's your motivation? Revenge will only go so far.

On 8/23/2017 at 7:04 PM, SeanC said:

OT:  To keep ruling the universe.  The Empire is, well, an empire.

Yeah. Not enough. See Rome. They didn't battle every dinky outpost. They fought to keep the ones that mattered and that brought them money. 

[RedHawk]

I'm re-watching and so far I've seen three wide shots North of the wall, counting our intrepid crew as they trudge along.  I swear the number has ranged from 9 to 13 men. 

During the episode when I saw unknown faces dying I realized there had been several "red-shirts" planted amongst the Westerosi 7. Annoying.

How did Jon convince them to go on this ridiculous suicide mission? Were they Wildlings who just wanted to feel a touch of frostbite again?

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I'm re-watching and so far I've seen three wide shots North of the wall, counting our intrepid crew as they trudge along.  I swear the number has ranged from 9 to 13 men. 

During the episode when I saw unknown faces dying I realized there had been several "red-shirts" planted amongst the Westerosi 7. Annoying.

How did Jon convince them to go on this ridiculous suicide mission? Were they Wildlings who just wanted to feel a touch of frostbite again?

On some of the wide shots, I saw someone dragging a sled of supplies, but the numbers didn't seem to add up in the end. Red shirts are certainly plausible, but don't be coy about them for goodness sake. 

[MV713]

Where is GHOST?

[RedHawk]

Sansa: "Lady Brienne, the trip to King's Landing is long and you won't be traveling on summer roads." 

So Sansa's gonna be a bitch and not loan Brienne the teleporter, eh? Wonder if Brienne saw Dany's dragons flying over? 

Why oh why do none of the Westerosi 7 have weapons made of dragonglass? Why mine it if you're not gonna use it?

Edited August 25, 2017 by RedHawk

[paigow]

20 hours ago, The Companion said:

I know the Night King represents some sort of looming evil, but looking at the world from his perspective, you could definitely tell a story of a leader who is trying to bring peace and stop terrible acts from occurring. His primary contact that we have seen with humans is picking up babies who were abandoned by their own father. He was created to stop an invasion that involved murdering the Children of the Forest (right? I am a little fuzzy on that).

Origin Story: The Night King was created by Children of the Forest to kill humans that were cutting down all the sacred trees. Then he turned on his creators...so the CotF allied with the remaining humans for survival.

The babies were not abandoned...the boys were peace offerings that kept old Craster alive. Craster then impregnated each successive generation of daughters. -e.g. Gilly

[LisaBLingLing]

I've decided I need to get this off my chest.  I'm a knitter.  In fact, I usually knit while watch GoT.  I am even participating in a GoT Knit-a-long.  So, when Arya criticizes Sansa for being inside knitting while she was learning how to shoot a bow and arrow, I got a little miffed.  Who do you think is going to make the socks you need to wear when you're out chasing White Walkers through the snow, knights?  Puh-leez.  Go freeze your naked ass (and/or toes) off.

[The Companion]

34 minutes ago, paigow said:

Origin Story: The Night King was created by Children of the Forest to kill humans that were cutting down all the sacred trees. Then he turned on his creators...so the CotF allied with the remaining humans for survival.

The babies were not abandoned...the boys were peace offerings that kept old Craster alive. Craster then impregnated each successive generation of daughters. -e.g. Gilly

Thanks. I looked it up (as I said, I was a bit fuzzy) and I believe they were cutting down the sacred trees and killing the Children of the Forest. An article quotes the line as: "We were at war. We were being slaughtered, our sacred trees cut down," Leaf replies. "We needed to defend ourselves." Either way, the Night King was created to defend against the human threat, and I am not sure that recent events have exonerated the human race. 

The babies may have been peace offerings, but my understanding was that Craster was getting rid of only the boys, essentially so he would have no competition. Either way, he was perfectly happy to leave his own kids in the woods for the White Walkers, so he certainly wasn't a shining example of paternal love and humanity (not that we see a lot of those anyway in this show).

[Mabinogia]

26 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Either way, the Night King was created to defend against the human threat, and I am not sure that recent events have exonerated the human race. 

So basically, dude is just doing what he was made to do. Can't fault him there. I say NK for King! The humans on this show are pretty terrible for the most part. Maybe a WW World wouldn't be so bad.

[ImpinAintEasy]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Sansa: "Lady Brienne, the trip to King's Landing is long and you won't be traveling on summer roads." 

So Sansa's gonna be a bitch and not loan Brienne the teleporter, eh? Wonder if Brienne saw Dany's dragons flying over? 

Why oh why do none of the Westerosi 7 have weapons made of dragonglass? Why mine it if you're not gonna use it?

 

They did have dragon glass.  Jorah uses the dragonglass daggers from the beginning, it's what he killed the wight polar bear with. Later, we see the Hound switch from a war hammer to dragonglass daggers when he realizes the hammer is ineffective. Beric and Thoros had fire swords that worked on wights. Jon had Valyrian steel. Only Tormund and Gendry seemed to be without an effective weapon. 

[PatsyandEddie]

Gendry's warhammer looked like it was fashioned from dragonglass. It is huge and would need a large space to be swung in. With such close fighting,only daggers would do. 

[MrWhyt]

8 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Gendry's warhammer looked like it was fashioned from dragonglass.

1. where would gendry get dragonglass?

2. how would gendry know to use dragonglass in the making of his hammer?

3 how would a blacksmith know how to work stone?

[PatsyandEddie]

The dragonglass was available on Dragonstone. Davos brought Gendry to Dragonstone because he knew that he was a skilled blacksmith. He made mention of them needing one. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by PatsyandEddie

[Tyro49]

Arya mentioning to Sansa that she could use her face and become her and "wear all the pretty dresses" was a clue that something else is going on: we know Arya doesn't care two cents for "pretty dresses".

I want to know what will happen next, but I also want to be surprised! It's a no-win situation.

I'm thinking the single wight will die in the south; without lots of them the weather won't come with just the one.

What is Cercei planning????

[Couver]

3 hours ago, LisaBLingLing said:

I've decided I need to get this off my chest.  I'm a knitter.  In fact, I usually knit while watch GoT.  I am even participating in a GoT Knit-a-long.  So, when Arya criticizes Sansa for being inside knitting while she was learning how to shoot a bow and arrow, I got a little miffed.  Who do you think is going to make the socks you need to wear when you're out chasing White Walkers through the snow, knights?  Puh-leez.  Go freeze your naked ass (and/or toes) off.

This is the second time a character has belittled what can be seen as women's work and knitting in particular. Lady Mormont did it a few episodes ago. I do think that it is in character for the two characters saying it and what they value s important but I also think it would be nice to have a counterpoint to that criticism. You mention a good one. Everyone has a use in wartime not just soldiers. 

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

 

They did have dragon glass.  Jorah uses the dragonglass daggers from the beginning, it's what he killed the wight polar bear with. Later, we see the Hound switch from a war hammer to dragonglass daggers when he realizes the hammer is ineffective. Beric and Thoros had fire swords that worked on wights. Jon had Valyrian steel. Only Tormund and Gendry seemed to be without an effective weapon. 

My point was that ALL of them should have had it. I thought Jorah's daggers were dragonglass. The Hound did not have dragonglass at first, nor did Gendry or Tormund, so I'm still asking why they weren't supplied with at least some crudely fashioned weapons with dragonglass spears or tips or what have you. 

The fire swords are fab but dragonglass seems to work faster, which is kinda important when 1,000 wights are comin' at ya all at once.  

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

What is Cercei planning????

Hopefully something that will get her killed.

The reality (probably) is someone we really like will die.  Because if anyone has teflon, plot armor - it's Cersei.

The teflon in this case is Tyrion stating that he knows Cersei will spring a trap, and he has no plans to stop her.

Because - Why would he.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Macbeth

[MrWhyt]

3 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

The dragonglass was available on Dragonstone. Davos brought Gendry to Dragonstone because he knew that he was a skilled blacksmith. He made mention of them needing one. 

but gendry had his warhammer when davos met him, before we got to dragonstone.

[PatsyandEddie]

Maybe it was just me but the war hammer he had on the mission seemed different in appearance from the one he had in KL. 

Anyway, I watch to enjoy not pick apart. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by PatsyandEddie

[PatsyandEddie]

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

but gendry had his warhammer when davos met him, before we got to dragonstone.

Could he not have replaced the head of it with dragonglass on Dragonstone? 

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, Couver said:

This is the second time a character has belittled what can be seen as women's work and knitting in particular. Lady Mormont did it a few episodes ago. I do think that it is in character for the two characters saying it and what they value s important but I also think it would be nice to have a counterpoint to that criticism. You mention a good one. Everyone has a use in wartime not just soldiers. 

Note that she does her bitching about female skills while wearing a nice new doublet and she's also got a kick-ass coat cut perfectly for a left-handed warrior (by a dumb woman, probably Sansa herself). Looking down on female skills while taking advantage of them is not a good look (unlike that coat) - it certainly has a long tradition though. Shut up, Arya.

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, RedHawk said:

My point was that ALL of them should have had it. I thought Jorah's daggers were dragonglass. The Hound did not have dragonglass at first, nor did Gendry or Tormund, so I'm still asking why they weren't supplied with at least some crudely fashioned weapons with dragonglass spears or tips or what have you. 

Tormund had his axe at the start but he was using a crude dragonglass-looking weapon later on.

10 hours ago, The Companion said:

Thanks. I looked it up (as I said, I was a bit fuzzy) and I believe they were cutting down the sacred trees and killing the Children of the Forest. An article quotes the line as: "We were at war. We were being slaughtered, our sacred trees cut down," Leaf replies. "We needed to defend ourselves." Either way, the Night King was created to defend against the human threat, and I am not sure that recent events have exonerated the human race. 

The problem with this argument is the war has gone beyond humankind and the CotF. The Night King is killing any living creature he can find to add to the army of the dead. Did the giants deserve to be wiped out too? The bear(s)? Direwolves like Summer? Mind you, I don't think Hodor or Karsi or the little kiddie wights we've seen were any less innocent than Summer and the bear. The Cersei Lannisters and Euron Greyjoys of the world can't represent the entire human race and the Lannister soldiers are already paying for the sins of the Lannister twins. Sure, the Night King could wipe the board of all the slimy Game of Thrones players but he'd take everyone else too, more innocents than Cersei could dream of killing on her best day. Most Westerosi probably aren't so hopeless that they'd prefer to be transformed into ice zombies along with their entire families and everyone else they know, just so long as shitty lords and monarchs met the same fate. Hell, I'm not too thrilled about the current state of the real world but I'm glad we don't have to deal with frozen zombies on top of everything else.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Could he not have replaced the head of it with dragonglass on Dragonstone? 

where did he get the skills to work stone? and the time to do so?

[The Companion]

32 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Tormund had his axe at the start but he was using a crude dragonglass-looking weapon later on.

The problem with this argument is the war has gone beyond humankind and the CotF. The Night King is killing any living creature he can find to add to the army of the dead. Did the giants deserve to be wiped out too? The bear(s)? Direwolves like Summer? Mind you, I don't think Hodor or Karsi or the little kiddie wights we've seen were any less innocent than Summer and the bear. The Cersei Lannisters and Euron Greyjoys of the world can't represent the entire human race and the Lannister soldiers are already paying for the sins of the Lannister twins. Sure, the Night King could wipe the board of all the slimy Game of Thrones players but he'd take everyone else too, more innocents than Cersei could dream of killing on her best day. Most Westerosi probably aren't so hopeless that they'd prefer to be transformed into ice zombies along with their entire families and everyone else they know, just so long as shitty lords and monarchs met the same fate. Hell, I'm not too thrilled about the current state of the real world but I'm glad we don't have to deal with frozen zombies on top of everything else.

No, I agree. I should have said in the NK's eyes. I meant to the extent that the NK has a logical driving force and isn't just faceless evil.

Lady Mormont and her amazing glare alone would have me rooting for the humans. 

[BitterApple]

This is a really great article summing up many of the gripes we've had about this episode and the season in general:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/game-of-thrones/2017/8/20/16170748/season-7-episode-6-recap-beyond-the-wall

Edited August 26, 2017 by BitterApple

[Calamity Jane]

6 hours ago, BitterApple said:

This is a really great article summing up many of the gripes we've had about this episode and the season in general:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/game-of-thrones/2017/8/20/16170748/season-7-episode-6-recap-beyond-the-wall

Thanks for the link!  I liked their after show last year and wondered how to find them again, and now I know!

[ShellsandCheese]

I'm guessing Dany will get pregnant by Jon. My guess? It all goes back to season one and how the Dragons were born. Life for a life. She considers the dragons her children and now that one is dead, she will have a baby - life for a life. I'm guessing Jon being a Targaryean may have something to do with it as well. Those two do seem to be drawn to each other and he got up close and personal with Drogon. The show is trowing anvils left and right, I'm thinking he will also ride Rheagal (named after his father). I love this show but it is quite predictable, so I'd be more shocked if this didn't happen.