S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[BitterApple]

16 minutes ago, Bcharmer said:

I thought the same about Lord Bolton. He was a POS, but that voice.... <swoon>

I always felt dirty for being a closet Ramsey groupie. Like even though I knew he was a complete sociopath, I still would've slept with him anyways...

[kitmerlot1213]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

When Sansa said something along the lines of how she'd survived something Arya couldn't, I was taken aback for a second. But then I thought it's true - Arya wouldn't have survived Sansa's experiences, just as Sansa wouldn't have survived Arya's. Their different natures are what helped them survive what they individually endured. Together, they are a hell of a force, if they can get together. I don't hate either of them, though Arya did give me chills in this scene. 

It was interesting, however, to see that she carries faces in her satchel. There was Frey - and did anyone recognize the other one?

 

 

I think this is true but it seems that only Sansa has the capacity to see the changes both she and Arya have gone through--Arya can not look at her own sister with an ounce of compassion or even an attempt to see her side of things.  Arya likes to throw the past back in Sanasa's face but it's curiously only from Arya's narrow view point.  I guess Arya forgot the look of fear and horror on Sansa's face when their dad was pulled to his knees on the steps of the church and that she was so overcome that she fainted after his beheading which Sansa was forced to watch.  How can Arya think Sansa liked being a hostage of the Lannisters and forced to call her family a traitor? Arya can't be filled with that much hate for Sansa and if she is, how does she justify Jon's trusting Sansa to run the North in his absence?  I''m sure she has some justification, Arya's good at seeing the good in everyone but Sansa.

I will always love Jon Snow, he is a heroic and kind man but I'm not feeling this "epic" Dany love and I about rolled my eyes at the mention of the long list of men in love with her.  We get it show, all men must bow before her wonderfullness.. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

How can Arya think Sansa liked being a hostage of the Lannisters and forced to call her family a traitor? 

Maybe she remembers Sansa not having her back in season one when one of their wolves bit the shit out of that little shit Joeffry. If I recall correctly, Sansa stood up there and lied, or at least pretended she didn't know who started the damn fight. And all of that ended with one of the wolves being killed. Maybe that sticks in her mind and she sees it as Sansa willing to do just about anything to fulfill her princes fantasies, that's all I can think of. So her mistrust in Sansa goes back to that point even before they got to Kings Landing, even before their father was murdered. I know I remember that scene and Arya being pissed and calling Sansa a liar in front of  everyone. Now I know that Sansa is not that girl anymore, I personally want her to be Queen of the North. But I'm thinking that impression could be stuck in Arya's head. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

I'm thinking she'll see him just as her soul passes on over into the next life cause I think she'll be dying in child birth. I don't believe she nor Cersei will survive. Her kid will survive, with Stark/Targaryen blood lines, just like Jon. They had what's his name telling Jon about keeping that sword and passing it on to his children, then the constant talk by Tyrion about worrying for the future and who to leave the throne to after she's gone, cause I think she will be gone before this series is over. 

The real question is if they'll get married, since Jon never wanted to father a bastard. But if Jon marries his aunt, won't that make him his own uncle by marriage? (Fun fact: aunt/nephew and uncle/niece marriages are actually still legal in some countries, though probably not as many as first-cousin marriage and I doubt it's a common thing anywhere. That's something I would have never thought to look up if not for this series.)

[kitmerlot1213]

19 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Maybe she remembers Sansa not having her back in season one when one of their wolves bit the shit out of that little shit Joeffry. If I recall correctly, Sansa stood up there and lied, or at least pretended she didn't know who started the damn fight. And all of that ended with one of the wolves being killed. Maybe that sticks in her mind and she sees it as Sansa willing to do just about anything to fulfill her princes fantasies, that's all I can think of. So her mistrust in Sansa goes back to that point even before they got to Kings Landing, even before their father was murdered. I know I remember that scene and Arya being pissed and calling Sansa a liar in front of  everyone. Now I know that Sansa is not that girl anymore, I personally want her to be Queen of the North. But I'm thinking that impression could be stuck in Arya's head. 

 

I've said it before but it bears repeating--I think it's terribly sad that Arya still holds a grudge from an even that happened when they were children and even then Sansa was tryyng to be political in not accusing Joffrey outright.  Arya looked absolutely affronted when Sansa asked why she didn't rush forward and fight the guard off at their dad's execution or to explain where she's been wondering around this entire time.  If Sansa can understand about Arya's learning to be a Faceless Man, why can't Arya even unbend a little to compassionately listen to the hell that Sansa's been through? 

Edited August 22, 2017 by kitmerlot1213

[The Companion]

28 minutes ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

 

I think this is true but it seems that only Sansa has the capacity to see the changes both she and Arya have gone through--Arya can not look at her own sister with an ounce of compassion or even an attempt to see her side of things.  Arya likes to throw the past back in Sanasa's face but it's curiously only from Arya's narrow view point.  I guess Arya forgot the look of fear and horror on Sansa's face when their dad was pulled to his knees on the steps of the church and that she was so overcome that she fainted after his beheading which Sansa was forced to watch.  How can Arya think Sansa liked being a hostage of the Lannisters and forced to call her family a traitor? Arya can't be filled with that much hate for Sansa and if she is, how does she justify Jon's trusting Sansa to run the North in his absence?  I''m sure she has some justification, Arya's good at seeing the good in everyone but Sansa.

I am not sure she ever saw it. She saw her sister dressed up exactly like Cersei and confidently encouraging their father to confess in front of the crowd. When he was sentenced she ran forward and was sheilded. She may have no clue that her sister protested and fainted. She was also very isolated after that, so she may have very little concept of what Sansa went through. She was on the road and then training, with the only real retelling of the story being the grossly inaccurate play. I think she is working on bad information.

16 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Maybe she remembers Sansa not having her back in season one when one of their wolves bit the shit out of that little shit Joeffry. If I recall correctly, Sansa stood up there and lied, or at least pretended she didn't know who started the damn fight. And all of that ended with one of the wolves being killed. Maybe that sticks in her mind and she sees it as Sansa willing to do just about anything to fulfill her princes fantasies, that's all I can think of. So her mistrust in Sansa goes back to that point even before they got to Kings Landing, even before their father was murdered. I know I remember that scene and Arya being pissed and calling Sansa a liar in front of  everyone. Now I know that Sansa is not that girl anymore, I personally want her to be Queen of the North. But I'm thinking that impression could be stuck in Arya's head. 

I agree. The letter probably feels a lot like that, actually. Sansa is taking Joffrey's side over her family's. 

I really need them to get on the same page.

[JustaPerson]

1 hour ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

  I guess Arya forgot the look of fear and horror on Sansa's face when their dad was pulled to his knees on the steps of the church and that she was so overcome that she fainted after his beheading which Sansa was forced to watch.

Arya may have seen Sansa's face change when Joffrey called for Ned's head, but Yoren (I think? who Ned silently signaled to help her escape before he was executed) covered her face after that to prevent her from seeing the actual act and took her away. And the crowd was probably so loud that Arya didn't hear Sansa's screaming or see her faint afterwards. 

Arya would never hurt Sansa, but after that scene Sansa would probably have some trouble believing that

Edited August 22, 2017 by JustaPerson

[fallaway]

10 hours ago, The Companion said:

She was told she would not be able to get pregnant until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, and that Drago would return then as well. I don't think they should just hand wave it. It would be really obnoxious for her to just suddenly get pregnant without some sort of driving reason (though I suppose that reason could be magic in this world). I would far prefer Jon to become her heir, though it is looking bad for that scenario from the googly eyes they were making at the end of the episode.

As an aside, I really had the word barren. It's probably the appropriate term in the show but it is really hurtful for many who have dealt with infertility. It is probably making it difficult for me to talk about it objectively.

I'm guessing that the show will find some way for the sun, or the "son" (one of the dragons?) to rise in the west and set in the east. I mean, it could even be the reanimated corpse of tiny baby Rhaego... and for that matter, Drogo, returning as a zombie soldier, in the White Walker army.

 

For your aside - much love to you. I walked in those shoes and they are heavy and hurtful indeed.

[Auntie Anxiety]

One of Littlefinger's lessons for Sansa was that you must have a contingency plan for every possible situation. I wonder if LF ever considered the possibility of Jon bending the knee. 

[paigow]

If Tormund, The Hound & Davos all survive, they need to write a thesaurus for the Wildlings...

• Double Envelopment
• Pincers
• Dick

Edited August 22, 2017 by paigow

[CletusMusashi]

9 hours ago, doram said:

It's really only been Daario. 

Yeah, but there've already ben at least two Daarios that we've seen. And that's just on Sundays. I personally can't help suspecting that, for all seven days, the line of guys who are Daario tends to be noticeably longer than the line of guys who are named Spartacus.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Yeah, but there've already ben at least two Daarios that we've seen. And that's just on Sundays. I personally can't help suspecting that, for all seven days, the line of guys who are Daario tends to be noticeably longer than the line of guys who are named Spartacus.

Kirk Douglas would say "I am Daario!!" to get in the Khaleesi line.....

[Bec]

I just went back and rewatched the scene where Ned loses his head, and Arya was definitely still perched by the statue watching when Sansa was lunging forward and screaming at them to stop (and had to be held back by a guard). And from the way the camera moved (swinging to the side a bit shakily), plus the look on Arya’s face, it was strongly implied that the scene with Sansa fainting was from Arya’s point of view as Arya was being carried off by what’s-his-name.

I don’t think Sansa was an idiot for believing writing that letter could save her father’s life. Cersei fully intended to let Ned live. Nobody could have predicted that little psycho Joffery deciding to cut Ned’s head off totally off the cuff. What else could Sansa have done? Say “no, Cersei, I’m not going to write that letter, go ahead and execute my father”?

In earlier visions, we’ve seen one dragon flying over King’s Landing. I wonder if that’ll be one of the live dragons or the undead ice dragon.

Isn’t it a bit like counting your chickens before they’re hatched, and jinxing yourself, to work on your lines of succession before you even won the throne? I’m with Daenarys on this one - it’s something to deal with after she wins, if she does win, not before.

I hope Daenarys doesn’t get pregnant. With this show’s track record? It would be sure to lead to something horrible happening. I don’t exactly expect a happy ending, but I’m at least hoping it won’t be horrible. Having a series end with babies is the sort of thing a far crappier show than this one would do. I don’t know if I’m being overly optimistic, but I expect better from this show.

People talked about how unrealistic it is that none of the main characters wear warm winter hats. I almost can’t get over that Jon could survive the ride back to Eastwatch after falling into the freezing cold water. Hello hypothermia! But then I just chalked it up to it’s part of the magic that brought him back to life, maybe the Lord of Light made him immortal when Melisandre brought him back (also, plot armor).

[Isazouzi]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, that was my thinking. That wight couldn't have been sired by that WW. Lucky for the Night King that the captured wight was around to sound the alarm for his fellows.

Jon said as much in the episode, that the wight didn't die because it hadn't been made by that specific WW. Jon knows stuff, people.

6 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

I thought the same about Lord Bolton. He was a POS, but that voice.... <swoon>

You and me both.

 

That episode was brutal. At the beginning of the season, I was annoyed/amused by all the cross country teleportation (except for the WW). Now I'm actually thankful, because I couldn't bear waiting 1 or 2 episodes for people to arrive and things to move on. We need the story to move on. And the episodes are so stressful. I keep yelling at my screen all the time, my neighbors must think I'm crazy. "Dragons!" "Run!" "Oh yeah, good idea, Cleagane!"

 

But in all this, my main question is still this: what does the NK want? Really? So he raises an army of the dead, presumably to march south, turn everyone he encounters into wights, so his army gets even bigger, and when he's converted every single being in Westeros, then what? What's the point? Does he want something else that we don't know? Something that would make sense of all this pointless fighting? Someone should try to talk to him, maybe he's be reasonable! ;-)

I agree that he seems to have some knowledge akin to the 3ER's. He took his sweet time marching to the wall and raising his army, and it's like he knew the dragons were coming and he stalled until then (also, Cleagane, did you REALLY have to throw rocks at the wights??)

 

I knew it was impossible for one of the dragons not to get killed, I thought I was prepared, but it was still a rough. Especially the raising from the dead part. Will the dragons have to fight each other? Will Ghost have to fight Grey Winds? That's so tragic. And yet, for some reason, I'm glad it wasn't Cersei who killed a dragon.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, marcee said:

She asked the 'healer' when Drogo would be back to normal, and the 'healer' responded, "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when your womb quickens again and you bear a living child, then he will return, and not before." It was supposed to sound like "never" - but perhaps it was a prophecy... and, if so, does that mean Khal Drogo will be back? Doesn't seem likely. Or perhaps it was just the 'healer's' assumption - that Dany was now barren, not a prophecy or a curse, but just a nasty response from an angry woman.

I think that the quote you have is from the book, not the show. I searched for both episode transcripts on multiple websites and the actual clip of that scene on the show and everything I found leaves out the womb/child bearing part.

Dany: When will he be as he was?
Mirri Maz Duur: When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east. When the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

[marcee]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think that the quote you have is from the book, not the show. I searched for both episode transcripts on multiple websites and the actual clip of that scene on the show and everything I found leaves out the womb/child bearing part.

Dany: When will he be as he was?
Mirri Maz Duur: When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east. When the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

If it is, I apologize. I haven't read the books, I found an article about it. The article claimed to quote the show, not the book, but it could have been mistaken. I believe it was a time.com article.

 

Found the actual transcript from that scene from episode 10:

He lives.

You asked for life, you paid for life.

This is not life. When will he be as he was?

When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east. When the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

Leave us.

l don't want you alone with this sorceress.

l have nothing more to fear from this woman. Go. You knew what l was buying and you knew the price.

lt was wrong of them to burn my temple. - lt angered the Great Shepherd.

This is not God's work. - My child was innocent.

nnocent? He would have been the stallion who mounts the world. Now he will burn no cities. Now his khalasar will trample no nations into dust.

l spoke for you. - l saved you.

Saved me? Three of those riders had already raped me before you saved me, girl. l saw my god's house burn, there where l had healed men and women beyond counting. ln the streets l saw piles of heads the head of the baker who makes my bread, the head of a young boy that l had cured of feverjust three moons past. So tell me again exactly what it was that you saved?

Your life.

Why don't you take a look at your khal Then you will see exactly what life is worth when all the rest has gone.

 

So yeah, it seems all this "barren" talk is book talk. Khaleesi believes it, but nothing in the show has said such.

Edited August 22, 2017 by marcee

[kitmerlot1213]

11 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

I thought the same about Lord Bolton. He was a POS, but that voice.... <swoon>

I'd also like to add Ser Davos--that man's could read from a phone book and I'd be mesmerized :)

 

4 hours ago, Bec said:

I just went back and rewatched the scene where Ned loses his head, and Arya was definitely still perched by the statue watching when Sansa was lunging forward and screaming at them to stop (and had to be held back by a guard). And from the way the camera moved (swinging to the side a bit shakily), plus the look on Arya’s face, it was strongly implied that the scene with Sansa fainting was from Arya’s point of view as Arya was being carried off by what’s-his-name.

I don’t think Sansa was an idiot for believing writing that letter could save her father’s life. Cersei fully intended to let Ned live. Nobody could have predicted that little psycho Joffery deciding to cut Ned’s head off totally off the cuff. What else could Sansa have done? Say “no, Cersei, I’m not going to write that letter, go ahead and execute my father”?

THIS!  Arya apparently has a selective memory about the day their dad died and she’s decided that Sansa’s a coward even though she has no idea what Sansa went through and most importantly, Arya doesn't seem to care.  Nice.  And I think what disturbs me the most about Arya’s behavior is her subtly threatening Sansa with a knife.  Her sister Sansa, who is a rape victim and who most probably suffered at Ramsay’s hands with a dagger just like that.  For me, there’s no coming back from that.

I don’t think this is what the Faceless Men had in mind when they trained Arya to be an assassin.  Isn't the Faceless God supposed to dictate who lives and who dies?  It seems that Arya is using her knowledge to take revenge on Sansa for petty childhood squabbles what with the mean comments about Sansa’s knitting, her pretty gowns and her pretty handwriting and if Sansa wanted power then wouldn’t she have grabbed it already? 

This entire storyline is making Arya look like a schoolyard bully and I'm kind of embarrassed for her.

[MrSmith]

On 8/20/2017 at 9:11 PM, STRIDER1 said:

3) I hope that they can turn the ice dragon back to normal at some point in the story. turned can be un-turned i hope. : I

4) Another brother/sister romance brewing. ouch lol

If the now-undead dragon can breathe fire, which I don't think it will, then I think what will happen is that Dany's connection to Viserion will be strong enough - even in death - that the dragon will end up fighting for her. This may happen even if the dragon cannot breathe fire.

Edited to add: I don't think the dragon will be capable of breathing anything with the hole in its neck.

As for brother/sister .... no. They are actually cousins.

Edited August 22, 2017 by MrSmith

[Popples]

1 minute ago, MrSmith said:

As for brother/sister .... no. They are actually cousins.

Dany and Jon are aunt and nephew, just roughly the same age. Rhaegar was Viserys and Dany's older brother and Jon's father.

[MrSmith]

1 minute ago, Popples said:

Dany and Jon are aunt and nephew, just roughly the same age. Rhaegar was Viserys and Dany's older brother and Jon's father.

Thanks. Still, they aren't brother and sister.

[The Companion]

5 hours ago, Bec said:

I just went back and rewatched the scene where Ned loses his head, and Arya was definitely still perched by the statue watching when Sansa was lunging forward and screaming at them to stop (and had to be held back by a guard). And from the way the camera moved (swinging to the side a bit shakily), plus the look on Arya’s face, it was strongly implied that the scene with Sansa fainting was from Arya’s point of view as Arya was being carried off by what’s-his-name.

I don’t think Sansa was an idiot for believing writing that letter could save her father’s life. Cersei fully intended to let Ned live. Nobody could have predicted that little psycho Joffery deciding to cut Ned’s head off totally off the cuff. What else could Sansa have done? Say “no, Cersei, I’m not going to write that letter, go ahead and execute my father”?

Isn’t it a bit like counting your chickens before they’re hatched, and jinxing yourself, to work on your lines of succession before you even won the throne? I’m with Daenarys on this one - it’s something to deal with after she wins, if she does win, not before.

I hope Daenarys doesn’t get pregnant. With this show’s track record? It would be sure to lead to something horrible happening. I don’t exactly expect a happy ending, but I’m at least hoping it won’t be horrible. Having a series end with babies is the sort of thing a far crappier show than this one would do. I don’t know if I’m being overly optimistic, but I expect better from this show.

People talked about how unrealistic it is that none of the main characters wear warm winter hats. I almost can’t get over that Jon could survive the ride back to Eastwatch after falling into the freezing cold water. Hello hypothermia! But then I just chalked it up to it’s part of the magic that brought him back to life, maybe the Lord of Light made him immortal when Melisandre brought him back (also, plot armor).

Good to know, though eyewitnesses are always unreliable. I think we have seen all of the people in this show suffer from a lack of perspective. It's the same debate Jon and Sansa had about Cersei vs. the Walkers as the biggest threat. Each thought that the threat they had lived through was the worse threat. I keep thinking Bran will somehow insert himself into these debates, if he can stop blue screen of deathing for 5 minutes.

I also agree that Sansa took the most reasonable option. It is clear that Cersei thought she could control her son, and both were shocked when he made his decree. At that point, we all knew Joffrey was a terrible human being, but there was no reason to think he would go back on his word. 

On the succession plan, it sorta cracks me up because I literally heard that argument all the time when I was in private practice (a portion of which was estate planning). People are superstitious that writing a will somehow puts their death out there. My husband actually refused to do one before he headed to Iraq for that reason. I would tell Daenerys the same thing I told my clients: succession planning is a process, and your succession plan should be honed over time. It is better to get started now, than to be caught off guard and leave those who love you (or who follow you, in this case) with no clear directions.

I agree that babies have not been the best omen in this show, though one has to think that someone better start having them soon. There is almost nobody left in the line of succession of any of the big houses. At this rate, the entire kingdom will end up in the hands of Baby Sam, sole survivor.

I actually like the theory that being brought back may have made Jon somewhat impervious to cold (the way that Daenerys is impervious to heat). After all, Melisandre was presented as not even requiring a heavy winter coat and she said she was never cold.

9 hours ago, fallaway said:

I'm guessing that the show will find some way for the sun, or the "son" (one of the dragons?) to rise in the west and set in the east. I mean, it could even be the reanimated corpse of tiny baby Rhaego... and for that matter, Drogo, returning as a zombie soldier, in the White Walker army.

 

For your aside - much love to you. I walked in those shoes and they are heavy and hurtful indeed.

Not a bad theory, but also NOOOOO NOT DROGO AND RHAEGO. 

Re the aside: Thanks, we adopted and I have made my peace for the most part, but the word barren used to absolutely gut me and it still hurts. To say someone is devoid of life is awful. I get that it has a second meaning, but when we were going through it, I would hold my breath every time we were in church and they were reading a passage about a woman who was unable to conceive.

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

I agree that he seems to have some knowledge akin to the 3ER's. He took his sweet time marching to the wall and raising his army, and it's like he knew the dragons were coming and he stalled until then (also, Cleagane, did you REALLY have to throw rocks at the wights??)

My thought was "Damn, he's got a hell of an arm!" until he missed. I laughed when he knocked the jaw off of that undead skeleton, for some reason the reaction of the undead fella amused the hell out of me. 

Though I'm not loving Arya much at this point, and I want very much for them to get on the same page, I try to keep in mind that Sansa was trying to survive within society, and while she was surrounded by enemies, she also had those who were occasionally kind to her. Whereas Arya's path involved few kindnesses, little true contact with society, and was driven to survive only by hatred and revenge. Her emotions, and normal human responses are pretty blocked up at this point - even her reunion with Hot Pie wasn't much more emotional than Bran's reunion with Sansa. When, and if, she gets a reunion with Jon - who she loves unequivocally - she might have a breakthrough and start the process of becoming a normal (ish) person.

2 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Good to know, though eyewitnesses are always unreliable. I think we have seen all of the people in this show suffer from a lack of perspective.

Exactly. When my brother and I reminisced about events in our childhood (he was older), we found we had very different memories of what had actually occurred during some notable family events.. And these weren't traumatic events, which have emotions coloring what we remember.

[dangwoodchucks]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:59 AM, TaraS1 said:

Did I mishear or did someone ask Jon about killing the Night King in order to destroy all the wights he had turned, and Jon said, "That's not how it works"?  I could've sworn I heard that.

And Dany being able to get notice that Jon needs help and flying beyond the wall in a matter of hours, yet Sam is still riding around in a wagon somewhere with a book full of helpful info?  Come on, show.

Also, kudos to those who can tell the two non-Drogon dragons apart.  I had no clue which one was which. (And I too would like to believe one of Dany's children would never turn on her, even if it's become zombified, but I know that's hopeless.)

 

Jon's reply was, "You don't understand".

 

12 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

I thought the same about Lord Bolton. He was a POS, but that voice.... <swoon>

 

You were talking about Roose Bolton, right? That man's voice could melt the Wall.

 

For some reason I'm thinking that undead Viserion will be firing ice cubes.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 minutes ago, dangwoodchucks said:

For some reason I'm thinking that undead Viserion will be firing ice cubes.

Now I hope that we get to see him unload a barrage of ice cubes like the ice dispenser at 7/11.

[DarkRaichu]

31 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now I hope that we get to see him unload a barrage of ice cubes like the ice dispenser at 7/11.

I see him shooting ice beam a la Mr. Freeze / Arnold Schwartzenager in Batman & Robin :D :D :D

[Isazouzi]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I actually like the theory that being brought back may have made Jon somewhat impervious to cold (the way that Daenerys is impervious to heat). After all, Melisandre was presented as not even requiring a heavy winter coat and she said she was never cold.

 

I like that theory too! Although we can fanwank anything, I suppose.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Exactly. When my brother and I reminisced about events in our childhood (he was older), we found we had very different memories of what had actually occurred during some notable family events.. And these weren't traumatic events, which have emotions coloring what we remember.

So true. I distinctly remember my parents forgetting me home one day when we were all going out for a picnic. I remember yelling and crying my eyes out. Everybody in my family says it never happened.

 

So, regarding Dany's succession, what did Tyrion want exactly? Did he have a list of possible husbands to suggest? Jon, I suppose? Honestly, I would have made the same response as she did, not because I'm superstitious (which I'm not) but because what could she say? How could she think about marriage or babies? Or did Tyrion want her to name him her heir? But I loved how he seemed totally unfazed by the dragons running and taking flight next to him. And as sad as I was (and still am) to see Viserion die, it was necessary for Dany and everyone to know that dragons are vulnerable against the WW.

 

One thing I love about these last episodes is all the conversations between people I'd never thought would meet. I find that utterly satisfying, and I bet the actors are pretty happy too.

 

Also, I don't know how Berric's fire sword is working, but it looks so cool.  Is it magic or is there some fuel inside it? Could that even work in their time? Cause we don't really see him do anything to light it up. Also, if Cleagane doesn't overcome his fear of flames, I'm afraid he won't be very useful against ice creatures.

 

Now I need Jon to learn he's a Targaryen before next season. Does that seem possible?

[Bryce Lynch]

On 8/21/2017 at 10:43 AM, Popples said:

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2017/8/22/16181532/game-of-thrones-night-king-javelin

An Olympic javelin thrower suspects the Night King might have been using PEDs when he killed Viserion.  This could have huge implications.  Could he be suspended for the war between the living and the dead?  Will he have to give Dany her dragon back?

[The Companion]

10 minutes ago, Isazouzi said:

So, regarding Dany's succession, what did Tyrion want exactly? Did he have a list of possible husbands to suggest? Jon, I suppose? Honestly, I would have made the same response as she did, not because I'm superstitious (which I'm not) but because what could she say? How could she think about marriage or babies? Or did Tyrion want her to name him her heir? But I loved how he seemed totally unfazed by the dragons running and taking flight next to him. And as sad as I was (and still am) to see Viserion die, it was necessary for Dany and everyone to know that dragons are vulnerable against the WW.

One thing I love about these last episodes is all the conversations between people I'd never thought would meet. I find that utterly satisfying, and I bet the actors are pretty happy too.

 

Daenerys was clearly ready to consider a husband when she left for Westeros, so it isn't completely out of left field to expect her to consider one now (though she may have just been looking to ditch Daario, heh). That being said, I think he wants her to name a second-in-command and heir. If she cannot or will not have human children, she should make a contingency plan that puts someone in charge if she is taken prisoner, goes missing or dies, particularly if she is going to insist that she fights on the front lines. She was vulnerable to an attack by Jamie just an episode ago. She headed off to the north to fight the WW this episode. Look at what happened to the Baratheons. Stannis and Renly died, and there was nobody left to fight Cersei. I agree, though, that there isn't exactly a huge pool of potential candidates to choose from. Grey Worm or Missandei would be eaten alive. Tyrion doesn't strike me as a great leader. He is really an advisor. I can't imagine her handing her people over to Jon Snow, even if she thinks he is dreamy, after such a short amount of time. Maybe Ser Jorah, who has shown both the ability to fight and consistency and loyalty after initially acting as a spy? Bonus, that might put Lady Mormont as her successor (long may she reign).

 

I am also enjoying the meeting of characters that haven't interacted before. I wish they would compare notes (Seriously, Gendry, you know who Jon Snow is and you know his sister, how has this not come up??), but the different combinations of characters has been really fun this year.   

[The Companion]

On 8/20/2017 at 11:40 PM, LittleIggy said:

The NK will probably fall in love with Cersei at first sight.

Or he looks at her and thinks "that woman is cold, even for me." 

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Daenerys was clearly ready to consider a husband when she left for Westeros, so it isn't completely out of left field to expect her to consider one now (though she may have just been looking to ditch Daario, heh). That being said, I think he wants her to name a second-in-command and heir. If she cannot or will not have human children, she should make a contingency plan that puts someone in charge if she is taken prisoner, goes missing or dies, particularly if she is going to insist that she fights on the front lines. She was vulnerable to an attack by Jamie just an episode ago. She headed off to the north to fight the WW this episode. Look at what happened to the Baratheons. Stannis and Renly died, and there was nobody left to fight Cersei. I agree, though, that there isn't exactly a huge pool of potential candidates to choose from. Grey Worm or Missandei would be eaten alive. Tyrion doesn't strike me as a great leader. He is really an advisor. I can't imagine her handing her people over to Jon Snow, even if she thinks he is dreamy, after such a short amount of time. Maybe Ser Jorah, who has shown both the ability to fight and consistency and loyalty after initially acting as a spy? Bonus, that might put Lady Mormont as her successor (long may she reign).

 

I am also enjoying the meeting of characters that haven't interacted before. I wish they would compare notes (Seriously, Gendry, you know who Jon Snow is and you know his sister, how has this not come up??), but the different combinations of characters has been really fun this year.   

Gendry, Thoros, Beric and The Hound all know Jon Snow's favorite sister, Arya, pretty well and nobody mentioned her to him.   Given what an interesting and unusual girl she is, this is surprising. 

[Isazouzi]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Gendry, Thoros, Beric and The Hound all know Jon Snow's favorite sister, Arya, pretty well and nobody mentioned her to him.   Given what an interesting and unusual girl she is, this is surprising. 

Did Beric and Thoros know who she really was? I can't remember. I can see the Hound no giving a fuck about that and not mentioning her to Jon, but Gendry really should have said something. If he knows she was a Stark. Again, I can't remember.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Isazouzi said:

Did Beric and Thoros know who she really was? I can't remember. I can see the Hound no giving a fuck about that and not mentioning her to Jon, but Gendry really should have said something. If he knows she was a Stark. Again, I can't remember.

I believe The Hound outed Arya's identity to Beric and Thoros.  Beric seemed impressed with her.  When The Hound was asking who would be his challenger in his trial by combat, he suggested Arya might be the bravest person there and Beric said she might be.   I am pretty sure she told Gendry who she was when they were on the road to the Wall before being captured and taken to Harrenhal.  Arya and The Hound had a very close (if complicated) relationship, so I would think he would have said something to Jon, even if only, "The little c*** left me to die!" :)

[dangwoodchucks]

Three reunions I'm looking forward to: The Hound/Arya, Jon/Arya and Gendry/Arya. It would be nice if Arya would be less No One-y when these take place.

Seems like Brienne also could have said something to Jon about seeing Arya with the Hound. Maybe Sansa passed on what Brienne had told her. A Brienne/Hound reunion would also be interesting.

[Calamity Jane]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I believe The Hound outed Arya's identity to Beric and Thoros.  Beric seemed impressed with her.  When The Hound was asking who would be his challenger in his trial by combat, he suggested Arya might be the bravest person there and Beric said she might be.   I am pretty sure she told Gendry who she was when they were on the road to the Wall before being captured and taken to Harrenhal.  Arya and The Hound had a very close (if complicated) relationship, so I would think he would have said something to Jon, even if only, "The little c*** left me to die!" :)

Yes, Gendry figured out "Arry" was a girl along the way, and Arya then told him her identity.  After they were caught by the Brotherhood, the Hound was also captured and told them who Arya was, and the Brotherhood decided to take her to her family and ransom her back for much-needed funds.  She ran away from them when they detoured from taking her to her family, and she then was caught by the Hound.  He took her to the Twins, knowing that Catelyn and Robb would be there for Robb's wedding, but they arrived just as the massacre started.  The Hound's next plan was to take her to her Aunt Lysa, who died just before their arrival.  I believe after that they were headed north when they encountered Brienne, who defeated the Hound, allowing Arya to escape and head for Braavos.  

Given the amount of time he spent with Arya, I find it very odd the Hound hasn't mentioned her to Jon.  Of course, Jorah not mentioning he met and was cured by a man from the Night's Watch is also curious.   Things are moving so rapidly now by comparison with earlier seasons, there probably isn't time for much of that.  I'm a bit torn - I like that things are finally moving along, but I also miss the more leisurely pace.  Like A Girl, I guess I'm confused. 

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, dangwoodchucks said:

Three reunions I'm looking forward to: The Hound/Arya, Jon/Arya and Gendry/Arya. It would be nice if Arya would be less No One-y when these take place.

Seems like Brienne also could have said something to Jon about seeing Arya with the Hound. Maybe Sansa passed on what Brienne had told her. A Brienne/Hound reunion would also be interesting.

I'd also like to see a Hound/Sansa reunion.  He was often her protector (along with Tyrion) at KL.  

[ChipBach]

Of all the "unbelievable" things people are taking issue with - I was good to go on all of them except one thing...

Where the hell did the white walkers buy that freakin' chain????  Amazon??  They had it in like 12 hours...  

They had like a thousand feet of chain where each link was like four foot long???  I really could only think of that while they were draggin' the dragon out.  I have not seen any "supplies" caravans with them...  They don't make stuff, no wight factories and such?  weird.

Edited August 22, 2017 by ChipBach

[The Companion]

8 minutes ago, ChipBach said:

Of all the "unbelievable" things people are taking issue with - I was good to go on all of them except one thing...

Where the hell did the white walkers buy that freakin' chain????  Amazon??  They had it in like 12 hours...  

They had like a thousand feet of chain where each link was like four foot long???  I really could only think of that while they were draggin' the dragon out.  I have not seen any "supplies" caravans with them...  They don't make stuff, no wight factories and such?  weird.

To quote someone on my FB feed, BeyondtheWallmart

[Isazouzi]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I believe The Hound outed Arya's identity to Beric and Thoros.  Beric seemed impressed with her.  When The Hound was asking who would be his challenger in his trial by combat, he suggested Arya might be the bravest person there and Beric said she might be.   I am pretty sure she told Gendry who she was when they were on the road to the Wall before being captured and taken to Harrenhal.  Arya and The Hound had a very close (if complicated) relationship, so I would think he would have said something to Jon, even if only, "The little c*** left me to die!" :)

 

42 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Yes, Gendry figured out "Arry" was a girl along the way, and Arya then told him her identity.  After they were caught by the Brotherhood, the Hound was also captured and told them who Arya was, and the Brotherhood decided to take her to her family and ransom her back for much-needed funds.  She ran away from them when they detoured from taking her to her family, and she then was caught by the Hound.  He took her to the Twins, knowing that Catelyn and Robb would be there for Robb's wedding, but they arrived just as the massacre started.  The Hound's next plan was to take her to her Aunt Lysa, who died just before their arrival.  I believe after that they were headed north when they encountered Brienne, who defeated the Hound, allowing Arya to escape and head for Braavos. 

Thank you, I had completely forgotten the scene with the Brotherhood. The previous seasons are starting to blur in my mind.

22 minutes ago, ChipBach said:

Of all the "unbelievable" things people are taking issue with - I was good to go on all of them except one thing...

Where the hell did the white walkers buy that freakin' chain????  Amazon??  They had it in like 12 hours...  

They had like a thousand feet of chain where each link was like four foot long???  I really could only think of that while they were draggin' the dragon out.  I have not seen any "supplies" caravans with them...  They don't make stuff, no wight factories and such?  weird.

I've ventured in the Book Talk Thread (now that we're beyond the books, I don't really care anymore) and someone posted an explanation that I won't repeat here, but it actually made sense. Not for us TV viewers though. I suppose they could have found another way on the show that didn't require unexplained giant chains...

[RedHawk]

4 hours ago, dangwoodchucks said:

Jon's reply was, "You don't understand".

 

And Jon does? What did that even mean? Too bad Uncle Benjen didn't have enough time to drop a little knowledge on Jon before he sent him off on the horse.

4 hours ago, Popples said:

Dany and Jon are aunt and nephew, just roughly the same age. Rhaegar was Viserys and Dany's older brother and Jon's father.

 

4 hours ago, MrSmith said:

Thanks. Still, they aren't brother and sister.

Much less twins.

Edited August 22, 2017 by RedHawk

[Taget]

Probably nothing I'll say here will be very popular but.

1) Jorah had to survive this episode because Tyrion is just not a very good hand.  He falls flat on his face almost every single time.  Though luckily he has Dany around to do cleanup.  Jorah in contrast may not have always had the best ideas but he did the basics of presenting Dany with all the options and information available in order for her to make the best decision.  I'll go one step further.  If things had turned out differently and Cersei had Tyrion as her hand and Dany had Qyburn I have no doubt that the war over who controls Westeros would be over and we would already have a united defense of the realm against the White Walkers.

Tyrion rather than spending time complaining about burning two people alive to set an example that will spare countless lives should be contacting the lords of the Riverlands, Stormlands, Dorne, and the Reach and trying to organize new leadership who will command forces loyal to and helpful to his Queen.  Might be more productive than moping about with Varys and complaining that she doesn't listen to you enough.

2) Sansa is a villain.  This is something I thought would happen back in season 2.  That being surrounded by vipers she would become one herself.  I figured they were not going in that direction after she escaped.  But Sansa's actions in this episode combined with some curious things last season in my mind confirm it.  First she did not win the Battle of the Bastards.  She sabotaged it.  Right after she argued against sending a raven to the Riverlands because Ramsay might "intercept it" she sent one secretly to the Vale.  Something she could have told Jon.  Something that might have made Jon delay the battle until reinforcements arrived.  Or at least confirmation of said reinforcements were coming arrived.  Instead she kept her mouth shut silently watching her only possible rival for the throne get his forces slaughtered.

Now we come to Sansa meticulously courting the lords and not being shy that the knights of the Vale are there for her.  Her telling Arya how chopping off heads would not work was a very rational answer.  Except she is not exactly gun shy.  She would have gladly seen Ned Umber and Alys Karstark's head on a spike.  In fact they may turn out to be allies Jon may end up needing if things go the way I think they will.  It is also obvious that Sansa is contemplating having Arya killed.  She sent Brienne away because Littlefingers warned she would try to protect both Stark daughters.  This was before Arya showed her bag of faces and Sansa realized to her horror Arya might not be so easy to dispose of.

My prediction.  Sansa tries to unite the Northern Lords against Jon Snow when she hears Jon has "bent the knee" to Dany.  Arya rather than make a move against Sansa will leave Winterfell for Kings Landing where she will resume taking names off her list.  Arya is far more sentimental than Sansa.

3) Tyrion is correct to be worried about a successor to Dany but Dany was correct in wanting to wait.  First the prospect of marriage is the greatest tool she has to unite the kingdom and can bring the support of varied parties as long as they are not yet "out of the question."  Right now Jon is a candidate for obvious reasons.  And that marriage will set someone up to be a successor.  Though historically naming a successor has been dangerous, particularly when there are no children involved, and has prompted rebellions and strife.  Even marriages are no guarantee.  Mary Queen of Scots saw her own husband rebel against her.

That said if Dany were to die the consequences could be dire for many.  First the Unsullied are committed solely to Dany,  Regardless of whom she named they are really free to do whatever they want.  It's not clear what they would want absent Dany.  A best case scenario might involve them going back to Essos.  Them becoming a mercenary army for the highest bidder is not out of the question.  But far more alarming is the Dothraki.  They serve Dany and their tradition is to choose leaders based on strength and who different members of the horde want to follow.  Often splintering.  That Dany united all the horde together is unique and unlikely to be replicated.  What we do know is that in Essos these hordes left to their own devices and even divided into many different forces devastated most of the continent except for the wealthiest most well fortified cities who often just payed them off.  We know from Jaime who knows war as well as anyone else that they are no match for most Westerosi armies.  And that being scared of the sea are unlikely to ever return home.

If Dany were to die she might "break the wheel" of Westeros in a far different way than she imagined.  Which is why the future of Westeros may well depend on how many Dothraki the White Walkers can manage to kill.  Btw Dany moving all the Dothraki to Westeros makes her the best leader Essos has ever had.

4) Tyrion's plan to kidnap the undead is just plain dumb.  Tyrion should know his sister well enough to know bringing a wight back won't get her to back down and united for the "greater good."  And certainly sending a dozen people right into the zombie army wasn't a bright idea.  And you can bet the second Cersei gets her hand on one it will go directly to Qyburn so he can learn to make his own undead.  Nevermind whether it is a good idea or even safe to be bringing them to the other side of the wall.  If the undead army is real and Westeros needs to deal with this fight above and beyond whatever else, that is all the more reason not to play "mind games" with Cersei and try to best her over political intrigue (something she is WAY better at than Tyrion!).  Burn Cersei to ashes.  Problem solved.  Move on to Undead army.

5) Once Littlefingers meets Dany how long until he proposes marriage?  Sure he'd like to have a gigantic orgy with all of the Stark kids but it is power he wants.

6) There are so many characters I would rather see die than Viserion.  But at least he lives on as an important contributor to House White Walker.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Taget
Typos and more typos

[MrSmith]

1 hour ago, Isazouzi said:

 

Thank you, I had completely forgotten the scene with the Brotherhood. The previous seasons are starting to blur in my mind.

I've ventured in the Book Talk Thread (now that we're beyond the books, I don't really care anymore) and someone posted an explanation that I won't repeat here, but it actually made sense. Not for us TV viewers though. I suppose they could have found another way on the show that didn't require unexplained giant chains...

The Night King could have just taken his ass down into the lake and reanimated Viserion from there. After that, the dragon could have gotten itself out of the lake.

I would also like to say that as soon as the dragons appeared in this episode, I said to my wife and mother-in-law, "Imagine how bad it would be if the White Walkers got a dragon". And in the very next moment, I knew one of the dragons was going to get killed there. Unrelated: I hope I never have to watch another episode of Game of Thrones with my mother-in-law. She struggles to follow basic plot points and I just don't have the temperament to deal with that. (For example, after Viserion got killed and we saw Drogon flying around Eastwatch-by-the-sea, she concluded two dragons had been killed and asked why they didn't show the death of the other one.)

[BitterApple]

21 minutes ago, MrSmith said:

. Unrelated: I hope I never have to watch another episode of Game of Thrones with my mother-in-law. She struggles to follow basic plot points and I just don't have the temperament to deal with that. (For example, after Viserion got killed and we saw Drogon flying around Eastwatch-by-the-sea, she concluded two dragons had been killed and asked why they didn't show the death of the other one.)

My husband is the same way. He only likes the battle episodes, but when he watches he can't follow along because he hasn't watched any of the political maneuvering/character development episodes. Drives me crazy.

[MrSmith]

3 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My husband is the same way. He only likes the battle episodes, but when he watches he can't follow along because he hasn't watched any of the political maneuvering/character development episodes. Drives me crazy.

I feel your pain. The sad thing is that the political maneuvering and character development are arguably more interesting than the fleeting battle scenes.

[Isazouzi]

3 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My husband is the same way. He only likes the battle episodes, but when he watches he can't follow along because he hasn't watched any of the political maneuvering/character development episodes. Drives me crazy.

Well I watch with my boyfriend who barely understands English so I have to sum up every scene afterwards.

[MrSmith]

1 minute ago, Isazouzi said:

Well I watch with my boyfriend who barely understands English so I have to sum up every scene afterwards.

You should check if your television can output closed captioning in his language. Most can do at least English, Spanish, and French. I've seen a few that could also do German. Of course, if your boyfriend speaks Russian or Japanese or Chinese, then you're still pretty well stuck where you are. But if the tv can display closed captioning in a language he understands, that might be better.

[bethster2000]

I'm sentimental.  I won't be happy unless Dany somehow winds up with Drogo for all of eternity.  Remember, he will kill the man who awakens him if visiting with her and their unborn baby was a dream.

[Bcharmer]

5 hours ago, dangwoodchucks said:

17 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

I thought the same about Lord Bolton. He was a POS, but that voice.... <swoon>

 

You were talking about Roose Bolton, right? That man's voice could melt the Wall.

Yes, Roose (not Ramsay). The only bad thing about his death was never to hear that voice again. Good Lord! (no pun intended) :)

[The Companion]

3 minutes ago, bethster2000 said:

I'm sentimental.  I won't be happy unless Dany somehow winds up with Drogo for all of eternity.  Remember, he will kill the man who awakens him if visiting with her and their unborn baby was a dream.

I went to watch that scene again this morning, and it choked me up again. I am definitely team Drogo. 

Jason Momoa is coming to New Orleans Wizard World this year.  I may have to buy VIP tickets so I can mumble inaudibly at him.

[Bec]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

On the succession plan, it sorta cracks me up because I literally heard that argument all the time when I was in private practice (a portion of which was estate planning). People are superstitious that writing a will somehow puts their death out there. My husband actually refused to do one before he headed to Iraq for that reason. I would tell Daenerys the same thing I told my clients: succession planning is a process, and your succession plan should be honed over time. It is better to get started now, than to be caught off guard and leave those who love you (or who follow you, in this case) with no clear directions.

I agree that babies have not been the best omen in this show, though one has to think that someone better start having them soon. There is almost nobody left in the line of succession of any of the big houses. At this rate, the entire kingdom will end up in the hands of Baby Sam, sole survivor.

In real life I don't believe estate planning would led to disaster. But on TV when someone counts on something happening, usually the opposite would happen.

Anyway, figuring out who would take the throne after Daenarys now would be like someone writing out a will as if they already inherited their family estate, when they're actually still in a legal battle with a bunch of people over who is supposed to inherit the family estate.

I agree with you that it wouldn't be a bad idea for her to have some kind of plan in case of her death for the assets she already has. Just not for the assets she intend to acquire in the future. Heh.

If Daenarys is really going to break the wheel, maybe she can have the people choose their next leader. She did that with having the unsullied chose Grey Worm as their leader. Doing that with the Iron Throne would be some next level endeavor, but if they can make it work, they won't have to worry about having babies.

But seriously, at this point, who knows who is going to get the Iron Throne after Cersei?

[DarkRaichu]

24 minutes ago, Bec said:

If Daenarys is really going to break the wheel, maybe she can have the people choose their next leader. She did that with having the unsullied chose Grey Worm as their leader. Doing that with the Iron Throne would be some next level endeavor, but if they can make it work, they won't have to worry about having babies.

You have a choice: pick a successor for me or DIE !!!! :D :D :D