S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Shimmergloom]

12 hours ago, Tikichick said:

've finally become convinced that we have been seeing a tremendous con being played in concert by the Sisters Stark in very stealth harmony.  It's been a long few days, but I have finally been made to understand what it was I saw and heard, and did not hear, Sunday.  I read an overview by someone who pointed out that if Arya's training enabled her to be silently standing behind Sansa in that bedroom when we just heard the door creak when Sansa attempted to enter oh so quietly, there's no way Arya wasn't attracting LF's attention deliberately when spying on him and discovering the scroll.  They are drawing LF out.

For me, it's sisters doing it for themselves.

If they are working together, the there was no reason for that scene in Arya's bedroom.  There was no reason for Arya to threaten to remove Sansa's face if they are playing a ruse on LF, unless LF was hiding under the bed, because there was no way he could be spying on them talking in that small locked room, so they didn't need to keep up any pretense of a fued. 

A reason this storyline is so poorly written is because every scenario does not hold up to scrutiny.

1) if we believe what we see on screen, then LF's entire plan revolves around the fact that Arya won't answer Sansa when Sansa asks her where she got the scroll and for Sansa not to ask Maester Wokken about the scroll.

2) if we are to believe the two sisters are working together, then that scene in Arya's bedroom is non-sensical.  Because like I said, unless LF was under the bed, none of that conversation made sense.

3) if Arya is acting as a lone wolf and testing Sansa,  then she just threatened to cut the face off her sister, who lived with Ramsay, who skinned people alive for fun.  She just hurt Sansa and made an enemy out of Sansa for no reason.

4) if Arya is really the Waif, then where is Bran to tell Sansa that's not really Arya?  Note: Bran's absence applies to every scenario.

12 hours ago, arjumand said:

I mean, does Petyr have someone hiding under Arya's bed? 

I see I'm not the only one to think about this.  Lol.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Thanks for that, GraceK.

You know, all along, I've thought that Dany was going to die and Jon Snow was going to end up on the throne.  But now I'm beginning to wonder if Jon might die and Dany might end up on the throne.

Someone was also asking who Sansa would end up with.  This is a long shot, but I wonder if she might choose to stay married to Tyrion.  After all the men she's been associated with, Tyrion is one of the few honorable men she's known.

I like the idea of now grown Sansa and Tyrion. He was always kind and protective, and seemed truly concerned for her after the red wedding.  And there was something in the scene at the purple wedding - Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion about being his cup filler, and Sansa was brave enough to pick up the cup and walk it to Tyrion. I found it moving in a way.  I'm sure no one but Jamie has helped Tyrion when he was being tormented by family, and Sansa knew her actions could have triggered Joffrey to attack her.  It showed, at least to me, Sansa's growing maturity. 

[dragonsbite]

11 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I wondered if it was more the kissed by fire angle they were looking to highlight because of some significance?

Yes, I saw it as kissed by fire too.

This episode got me wondering whether The Hound might actually use fire at some future moment to amazing effect. They constantly show The Hound flinching away from fire (which is surprisingly consistent character behavior for GoT). When Beric lit his sword and applied it to Thoros (both times), his aversion to gingers, and his fear of the bear once it was on fire. I'm hoping there's a payoff for The Hound's behavior.

[PatsyandEddie]

I saw Arya offering the knife to Sansa as a sign of allegiance. The way she deftly flips it around shows her sister how capable she is and the gift of the knife, IMO is the same as a knight offering his sword, hilt first, to his overlord. Sansa will be the one to stick that blade into Littlefinger. 

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

Why do you think Daenerys pulled away from Jon at the last minute while Jon was recuperating on the ship?

1)  Was it because she sensed something was "off" because she is really his aunt? (although with all the incest and Targaryean history I'm not sure she'd care)

2)  Was it because Jon needed the rest?

3)  Was it because she felt unworthy because she cannot have children?

4)  Maybe she was a little creeped out because he's been resurrected?

I think it's because it was an emotional moment and it made her feel vulnerable. 

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, rmontro said:

Someone was also asking who Sansa would end up with.  This is a long shot, but I wonder if she might choose to stay married to Tyrion.  After all the men she's been associated with, Tyrion is one of the few honorable men she's known.

They are no longer married. And I can't imagine Sansa willingly tying herself to a Lannister ever again.

4 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

This episode got me wondering whether The Hound might actually use fire at some future moment to amazing effect. They constantly show The Hound flinching away from fire (which is surprisingly consistent character behavior for GoT). When Beric lit his sword and applied it to Thoros (both times), his aversion to gingers, and his fear of the bear once it was on fire. I'm hoping there's a payoff for The Hound's behavior.

100%, the anvils are everywhere. He will have some big heroic redemption moment where he overcomes his fear of fire to save someone or help defeat the white walkers. 

[MrsR]

I would think that Sansa and Tyrion are still married. Sansa disappeared after the Purple Wedding and Tyrion was put on trial. No need to annul, she'll soon be a widow. Then Tyrion goes rogue and escapes. They are no longer players in the game and the only person who really gives a shit about this marriage was Tywin and he's dead. The only person who could arrange an annulment was LF and I doubt he had the ear of the High Septon all the way from the Vale as he was working with the North.

 

They are still married, unless Tyrion's first wife was never annulled, and knowing Tywin, it was.

Edited August 24, 2017 by MrsR

[mac123x]

15 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I care for both sisters, but Arya needs to straighten up a little because I named my kitten after her. 

What's it like having a kitten that's trained as a Faceless Man?  One day, she's a calico, the next she's a Siamese...  I think I'd have a hard time sleeping.  :)

 

7 hours ago, Taget said:

Or more ominously after being trained as a killer and being alone for so long she has grown feral and castle life no longer suits her due to an uncontrollable urge to seek out prey.

Hmm, that's an interesting parallel with Nymeria. 

 

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

100%, the anvils are everywhere. He will have some big heroic redemption moment where he overcomes his fear of fire to save someone or help defeat the white walkers. 

If he's headed to Kings Landing with the rest of Dany's crew, it's possible they're setting up Cleganebowl.  Tis the season of fan service after all.  I'm not sure how the circumstances would arise where Sandor would have to face off against Gregor though.

[charmed1]

On 8/22/2017 at 5:37 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

I get too much of a brother and sister vibe between Arya and Gendry...and they are NOT Tarygayens. :)  How about Gendry marrying Sansa?  Ned promised her someday she would be married to someone brave and gentle and strong.  Of course we know that wasn't her type. :) But, maybe after being engaged to Joffrey and married to Ramsey it is now.  

Ooh. I like it. I'm shipping.

[Affogato]

17 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I care for both sisters, but Arya needs to straighten up a little because I named my kitten after her.  I'm going to feel like a fool if she ends up being a villain - not that I think she will.

I think Arya isn't a villain but it has also been a long part of her short life since she has been with anyone she can give the benefit of the doubt about almost anything, really, she has a doctorate in (um) take no one at face value.

[blackwing]

9 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

4) if Arya is really the Waif, then where is Bran to tell Sansa that's not really Arya?  Note: Bran's absence applies to every scenario.

I refuse to even contemplate this scenario.  The Waif is one of the most irritating characters to ever appear on this show.  I don't need to see her and her stupid page boy haircut ever again.

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, MrsR said:

They are still married, unless Tyrion's first wife was never annulled, and knowing Tywin, it was.

She is Ramsey Bolton's widow. They are not still married. The show has made that pretty clear, despite not explaining the legalities.

[WebosFritos]

22 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

One thing we have learned for certain from this episode is:

Ice Javelin > Big Crossbow

My comment isn't specifically directed at you but I was wondering why so many people had problems with the fact that the Night King took out a dragon with a single throw. We have seen that their weapons and even their touch can shatter normal weapons into a million pieces so it made sense to me that his weird ice spear would work against Viserion.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

My comment isn't specifically directed at you but I was wondering why so many people had problems with the fact that the Night King took out a dragon with a single throw. We have seen that their weapons and even their touch can shatter normal weapons into a million pieces so it made sense to me that his weird ice spear would work against Viserion.

I found it believable.  The NK has supernatural powers.  If anything, I was more surprised the Big Crossbow didn't work better.  Of course, if Qyburn had made maybe 10 or 12 of them, instead of just one, they might have worked.  

[screamin]

I don't fault Arya for trying to defend Micah. I do think she should have ordered Micah to run and left herself as soon as Joffrey showed up in a dickish mood. I know it's too much to expect her to realize that Joffrey is a secret sadist, but they're not in WF anymore, where Arya is a princess (however much she dislikes the dresses and deportment that go with the role). Joffrey outranks her, and Micah as smallfolk will suffer the brunt of any quarrel she has with Joffrey, so she should've avoided an argument with him. Not that I blame Arya for Micah's death, that's all on Joffrey and no girl growing up in a sane environment could have predicted what could happen. But I think she was ill-served by her reflexive tendency to be aggressive when she feels challenged - then, as now.

I get why she's a lot more aggressive now - she's needed to be, it was a matter of survival to react immediately and aggressively when threatened these past few years. (Meanwhile Sansa has spent years in the opposite situation - she can't react physically in any helpful way to threats and so has had to depend entirely on talking her way out of threats, thus developing her powers of flattery and lying instead). But now Arya's back in WF, back in the place where she's a princess, and she's happy to fall back into old patterns where she feels secure to act them out - and that's dangerous. She's proud and arrogant of her combat skills and even imprudently shows them off and boasts about them where LF can see that arrogance and hubris as a weakness, and exploit it. She feels so safe she leaves her faces around in a bag less well hidden than the message LF left for her to find. She feels secure in working out her old grudges with Sansa - using her new skills in aggression. Instead of pranks with sheepshit, pranks with death threats. And in WF she feels safe in working out her own irrational guilt in having let Ned die (despite having been as a child incapable of preventing it) by blaming it on Sansa (despite her having been as a child incapable of preventing it). She feels safe in acting all this out, and has no interest in the fact that even Jon would disagree with her in her evaluation of Sansa (and Arya knows it and says so), and has no concept of or interest in the idea that in damaging Sansa's reputation among the lords she would be damaging Jon's own interests - the person she supposedly is trying to defend. Arya HAS to learn that her aggression has to be dialed back if she wants to live safely in WF among her family.

Edited August 24, 2017 by screamin

[TaurusRose]

37 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

My comment isn't specifically directed at you but I was wondering why so many people had problems with the fact that the Night King took out a dragon with a single throw. We have seen that their weapons and even their touch can shatter normal weapons into a million pieces so it made sense to me that his weird ice spear would work against Viserion.

Inability to resist nitpicking? Desire to know more than the writers? Unwilling to accept this is fantasy? Hellbent on sucking all the fun and enjoyment out of GoT?

[Bryce Lynch]

35 minutes ago, stagmania said:

She is Ramsey Bolton's widow. They are not still married. The show has made that pretty clear, despite not explaining the legalities.

I'm not sure how clear it is.  From what I understand, in the books non-consummation was grounds for an annulment, but at least one party would have to request the annulment and it could only be granted by the High Septon or the Council of Faith.  Since neither Tyrion nor Sansa have been to KL since their "separation" when Sansa fled with LF, and Tyrion fled with Varys after Jaime helped him escape, it would seem highly unlikely that an annulment was ever granted.

In 503, LF told Roose Bolton had the following exchange: 

BAELISH:  I assure you she's still a virgin. Tyrion never consummated the marriage. By the law of the land, she's no man's wife. Inspect her, if you must.

ROOSE: I leave that to the brothel keeper. It's her name I need, not her virtue.

So, LF claims she is not legally married, but the fact that LF says something certainly doesn't make it true.  Bolton clearly doesn't care about her virginity and may or may not really care about her legal martial status.   Bolton doesn't really seem to care much about legal technicalities.  He killed his King and liege lord, and legitimized his bastard son without getting a King's permission.  
 

[Heckler52317]

21 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Inability to resist nitpicking? Desire to know more than the writers? Unwilling to accept this is fantasy? Hellbent on sucking all the fun and enjoyment out of GoT?

Quoted for truth

[screamin]

17 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how clear it is.  From what I understand, in the books non-consummation was grounds for an annulment, but at least one party would have to request the annulment and it could only be granted by the High Septon or the Council of Faith.  Since neither Tyrion nor Sansa have been to KL since their "separation" when Sansa fled with LF, and Tyrion fled with Varys after Jaime helped him escape, it would seem highly unlikely that an annulment was ever granted.

In 503, LF told Roose Bolton had the following exchange: 

BAELISH:  I assure you she's still a virgin. Tyrion never consummated the marriage. By the law of the land, she's no man's wife. Inspect her, if you must.

ROOSE: I leave that to the brothel keeper. It's her name I need, not her virtue.

So, LF claims she is not legally married, but the fact that LF says something certainly doesn't make it true.  Bolton clearly doesn't care about her virginity and may or may not really care about her legal martial status.   Bolton doesn't really seem to care much about legal technicalities.  He killed his King and liege lord, and legitimized his bastard son without getting a King's permission.  
 

Roose follows the old religion, at least as a matter of form if not faith. We don't know how annulments are done in that religion...but in the books Lady Hornwood was married forcibly to Ramsey (presumably by the old religion) and the maester said a forced vow (and thus the marriage) was not valid. Since the same could be said for Sansa's forced marriage, this conceivably could be all that's needed to render her previous marriage null and void in the eyes of practitioners of the old religion.

[Oscirus]

Yea which is it? Is nonconsummation more important than the Septon's say so or is the septon's say say so the most important?  Are Tyrion and Sansa legally seperated or were Shithead and his wife properly annulled? 

11 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

If they are working together, the there was no reason for that scene in Arya's bedroom.  There was no reason for Arya to threaten to remove Sansa's face if they are playing a ruse on LF, unless LF was hiding under the bed, because there was no way he could be spying on them talking in that small locked room, so they didn't need to keep up any pretense of a fued. 

A reason this storyline is so poorly written is because every scenario does not hold up to scrutiny.

1) if we believe what we see on screen, then LF's entire plan revolves around the fact that Arya won't answer Sansa when Sansa asks her where she got the scroll and for Sansa not to ask Maester Wokken about the scroll.

2) if we are to believe the two sisters are working together, then that scene in Arya's bedroom is non-sensical.  Because like I said, unless LF was under the bed, none of that conversation made sense.

3) if Arya is acting as a lone wolf and testing Sansa,  then she just threatened to cut the face off her sister, who lived with Ramsay, who skinned people alive for fun.  She just hurt Sansa and made an enemy out of Sansa for no reason.

4) if Arya is really the Waif, then where is Bran to tell Sansa that's not really Arya?  Note: Bran's absence applies to every scenario.

I see I'm not the only one to think about this.  Lol.

Perhaps the two sisters ravened a copy of the script to Littlefinger

Edited August 24, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

On 8/23/2017 at 4:00 AM, RedheadZombie said:

When it comes to the Arya and Sansa argument, why doesn't anyone remember that the plan almost worked?  If not for a sudden impulse of psychotic Joffrey, something his own mother didn't predict, Ned would be alive and now be at Castle Black.  That's never mentioned, and I think it's unfair to Sansa not to point that out.

But in a way Sansa pointed it out to Arya, I was forced, I was told it's the only way to save father, it would not matter to Arya in her present state of mind, Bran himself would not be believed because Arya only believes what she sees, though her "looking" skills are deficient.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how clear it is.  From what I understand, in the books non-consummation was grounds for an annulment, but at least one party would have to request the annulment and it could only be granted by the High Septon or the Council of Faith.  Since neither Tyrion nor Sansa have been to KL since their "separation" when Sansa fled with LF, and Tyrion fled with Varys after Jaime helped him escape, it would seem highly unlikely that an annulment was ever granted.

In 503, LF told Roose Bolton had the following exchange: 

BAELISH:  I assure you she's still a virgin. Tyrion never consummated the marriage. By the law of the land, she's no man's wife. Inspect her, if you must.

ROOSE: I leave that to the brothel keeper. It's her name I need, not her virtue.

So, LF claims she is not legally married, but the fact that LF says something certainly doesn't make it true.  Bolton clearly doesn't care about her virginity and may or may not really care about her legal martial status.   Bolton doesn't really seem to care much about legal technicalities.  He killed his King and liege lord, and legitimized his bastard son without getting a King's permission.  
 

Yeah, this is what I meant by "despite not explaining the legalities". They're never going to explain it to this granular level (because seriously who cares?), but they've decided she's not married to Tyrion.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I found it believable.  The NK has supernatural powers.  If anything, I was more surprised the Big Crossbow didn't work better.  Of course, if Qyburn had made maybe 10 or 12 of them, instead of just one, they might have worked.  

Yeah, I never considered the NK's javelin throw as a physical feat, it was a magical feat.  IMO.  

As for the big crossbows, I believe they said there were three of them, but the others were deployed elsewhere.

 

23 hours ago, stagmania said:

And I can't imagine Sansa willingly tying herself to a Lannister ever again.

Perhaps not.  But that begs the question who would Sansa end up with?  Or Tyrion, for that matter?

Tyrion could try marrying someone other than a prostitute, maybe that would work out better for him.

Or nothing wrong with staying single, I guess.  

[GrailKing]

On 8/23/2017 at 1:04 PM, arjumand said:

I'm hoping that Arya will burst in on Sansa, just  to mess with her a little more, and Sansa will be standing over the body of Petyr Baelish.

"Violent enough for you, sister? Now come on, do the face thing, and hurry up."

No, this isn't Arya's arc, hers will come next season, right now she's a pawn for Baleish in a bad way; and a pawn for Sansa in a good way. 

I truly think Sansa' is keeping Wolcum,Royce and Bran in her circle; Arya's outburst are all real  because those are her last memories and she doesn't know what we do, and forgot what she saw or heard through truama. Sansa wants to use them in her trap for LF, some may think it's a shit thing to do, but not as bad as telling you're sister you like to flay her. Sansa's gamble payed off Arya believed her and if LF has spies around, Sansa's sister just threaten her though both sisters got what they needed with out giving up anything.

[Bryce Lynch]

20 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, this is what I meant by "despite not explaining the legalities". They're never going to explain it to this granular level (because seriously who cares?), but they've decided she's not married to Tyrion.

I'm not sure the show has decided they are not still married.  They may have just decided that Bolton either a) believed they weren't still married b) didn't care if they were technically still married.    Bolton might have just decided his illegally naturalized bastard marrying her and raping her (and hopefully impregnating her) was a strong enough claim to strengthen his grip on the North.

If the writers decide that Sansa and Tyrion still being married would make for good storytelling, they can easily make that the case.  If it doesn't matter, they might just ignore the issue.

I really can't think of any totally plausible way for the writers to say they aren't still married.  It seems clear that without a legal annulment they would still be married and given the circumstances under which Mr. & Mrs. Tyrion Lannister fled KL, it would seem implausible that either of them could have requested or been granted an annulment.  

Edited August 24, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

My comment isn't specifically directed at you but I was wondering why so many people had problems with the fact that the Night King took out a dragon with a single throw. We have seen that their weapons and even their touch can shatter normal weapons into a million pieces so it made sense to me that his weird ice spear would work against Viserion.

Because reasons.

What shocked me more about that scene than the spear hitting Viserion was how he exploded. That was pretty disconcerting to me. I don't think it's anything the writers will circle back to because it was probably a CGI special effect and the writers are not great (suck) at worldbuilding. I'm kind of hoping that there's some kind of a magical explanation for this, but I doubt it.

[GrailKing]

On 8/23/2017 at 1:11 PM, MarySNJ said:

I agree. I've been thinking this season that Arya is meant to be the Stark who seeks vengeance against those who killed her family. She poisoned most (all?) of the Frey men, to eliminate the need for the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart to hang them one by one. 

BTW, I love your Kill Baelish scenario. But I don't think Sansa will do the dirty work when he meets his end but it would be sweet. 

I think Arya represents revenge, revenge can lead to a slippery slope and mistakes but provides a quick end and instant gratification.

Sansa is representing Justice, not as quick or satisfying more planning needed but leads to a better outcome.  Gratification last longer and taste sweeter

[mac123x]

I posted this last year in the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread:

 

I'm seeing one big battle, Jon eventually winds up one-on-one with the Night King dude, kills him and every other Other disintegrates and all the wights collapse.  That's a trope that's never been done before.

 

I meant it as a joke, Show!

[GrailKing]

On 8/23/2017 at 1:47 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

It probably isn't possible, as Cersei likely knows of or suspects Little Finger's  involvement in Joffrey's murder, or at least in Sansa's escape, but I would LOVE to see Arya use LF's face to kill Cersei.  Maybe LF could bring Sansa to Cersei to torture and murder, but then pull off his face to reveal he is really Arya.   

Up to this point there is nothing to show she does, when Jamie told her of Olenna's confession, she pondered and her final expression  and she should have died screaming statement tells me LF not a thought in her mind.

On top of that she knew LF was in the Vale, WE know different.

Edited August 24, 2017 by GrailKing

[Blonde Gator]

8 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Because reasons.

What shocked me more about that scene than the spear hitting Viserion was how he exploded. That was pretty disconcerting to me. I don't think it's anything the writers will circle back to because it was probably a CGI special effect and the writers are not great (suck) at worldbuilding. I'm kind of hoping that there's some kind of a magical explanation for this, but I doubt it.

Just my wild guess at it, but dragons are flesh made fire.  The ice dagger blew a huge hole into Viserion's side (unlike Drogon's wound, which was like a gigantic sticker).  When Viserion was hit, the reaction of ice and fire exploded, as did his flesh and blood.  RIP, Viserion.  We hardly knew you.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

ust my wild guess at it, but dragons are flesh made fire.

Fire made flesh?

[arjumand]

4 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I posted this last year in the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread:

I meant it as a joke, Show!

The thing is, while it's a cliche, if it wasn't like this, the human race would be finished. They could never win, because if the wights just keep going forever, they could kill more people faster than the living could kill them.

On the other (heh) hand, I just rewatched Hardhome, and didn't notice any wights collapsing when Jon ice-cubed that White Walker. Hmm. Now I don't know anymore.

[rmontro]

13 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

What shocked me more about that scene than the spear hitting Viserion was how he exploded. That was pretty disconcerting to me. I don't think it's anything the writers will circle back to because it was probably a CGI special effect and the writers are not great (suck) at worldbuilding. I'm kind of hoping that there's some kind of a magical explanation for this, but I doubt it.

I was listening to a podcast, and someone on there had the idea that dragons could breathe fire because they had two bladders containing elements that, when mixed, created fire.  The magical spear tore through the dragon and broke both of the bladders, which resulted in the chemicals combining and bursting into flame, which is why Viserion was leaking fire out of his body as well as that black blood, or whatever it was (jet fuel?).

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Fire made flesh?

"Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift." (Dany I, ADWD)

Although I think there are a couple other references to this (unless they were made on the show). It's funny that this quote is from a passage where Dany is chatting Viserion up.

3 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I was listening to a podcast, and someone on there had the idea that dragons could breathe fire because they had two bladders containing elements that, when mixed, created fire.  The magical spear tore through the dragon and broke both of the bladders, which resulted in the chemicals combining and bursting into flame, which is why Viserion was leaking fire out of his body as well as that black blood, or whatever it was (jet fuel?).

It's cool and all, but it takes some mental gymnastics to explain this away. I'm just resigned that this was done like that because cool CGI. And you know, maximum suffering for poor Viserion.

Edited August 24, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[GrailKing]

On 23/08/2017 at 6:11 PM, MarySNJ said:

I agree. I've been thinking this season that Arya is meant to be the Stark who seeks vengeance against those who killed her family. She poisoned most (all?) of the Frey men, to eliminate the need for the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart to hang them one by one. 

BTW, I love your Kill Baelish scenario. But I don't think Sansa will do the dirty work when he meets his end but it would be sweet. 

Sansa is a planner, she has to keep her hands clean as Regent and  Lady of Winterfell, add to that she's never trained or handle an actual weapon.

She can judge, question and pass sentence but someone else has to do the dirty deed.

15 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

"Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift." (Dany I, ADWD)

Although I think there are a couple other references to this (unless they were made on the show). It's funny that this quote is from a passage where Dany is chatting Viserion up.

This wasn't a question, I was pointing out the words were reversed.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 7:47 PM, mac123x said:

My biggest problem with any of the "Sansa, Arya, or both of them are pulling a long con" is that they set up something similar with Arya and the Waif last season that turned out to be that Arya had no plan and is in fact a moron for swanning about Braavos when she knows the League of Assassins is after her.  Fool me once, shame on the writers.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Noted, but this is Sansa doing the planning, and book wise she's hinted to be good at this stuff from Cat,Tyrion and Baleish himself.

6 years observing the best players, and picking up traits, MO's, I'm confident Sansa can pull a long con, and she does have a plan and Baleish helped it when he told her "fight every battle in your mind, and everything you see, you have seen before".

 

On 23/08/2017 at 7:47 PM, mac123x said:

Maybe, just maybe, they read some of the feedback after that episode and took it to heart and decided to make Arya (and/or Sansa) clever, but I doubt it.

On 23/08/2017 at 7:27 PM, BitterApple said:

WRG to Sansa GRRM did say so about Sansa, and I'm sure he feels the same of Arya, but he put them on separate tracks yet those tracks compliment the other. 

On 23/08/2017 at 8:27 PM, Oscirus said:

If the sisters were  pulling a long con wouldn't  it make sense to make littlefinger  the  pov character? That way  we'd have smug littlefinger viewing his plan working and it would be that much more satisfying when the rug gets pulled out from under him

If Sansa is pulling the strings and I think she is, it's better from Arya's view and LF's at the same time, which is exactly what we are getting.

[GrailKing]

On 23/08/2017 at 9:32 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

Exactly - Arya has always been a Sadistic Crackpot; it's just her victim to torment that can change.  Arya has no idea what truly happened to Sansa, and I think Arya severely underestimates her.  Arya thinks she's the shiznit and best at everything and can do no wrong, but she's just a sociopath.

I think she's put on the brink, she's very much traumatized with the killing portion, the Sansa stuff that's all real, she see's what she wants to see and refuses logic when questioned, and she is missing a shit load of info. 

On 23/08/2017 at 9:46 PM, MrsR said:

I agree that Arya is following her original character. Her first act in the entire show was to torment Bran with the archery lesson. Then she expresses interest in the Imp. Second episode she is qiuick to attack Joffrey. (He deserved it, but it was a bad idea.) She was never conventional or devoted to her sister and she was always violent.

You saw that archery angle as tormenting?, I saw it as playful teasing.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 10:19 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

It can be both.  Maybe it was courageous to stop Joffrey, but hitting him is also violent.  It doesn't have to be one or the other, IMO.  And Arya is clearly violent.

I'm not going to classify that as violent, what Joffery did to her was violence, I'll just call what she did unwise ( her aunt Lyanna seems to come to mind ) and she failed to realize the consequences, both of them actually, and Micah, Lady and Sansa felt the results.

But it is a thin line.

On 24/08/2017 at 2:26 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

That wasn't a threat.  As Tyrion would put it, she was educating her sister. :)

Not nice ! but funny; I'll give you a like.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm not going to classify that as violent, what Joffery did to her was violence, I'll just call what she did unwise ( her aunt Lyanna seems to come to mind ) and she failed to realize the consequences, both of them actually, and Micah, Lady and Sansa felt the results.

But it is a thin line.

Yes, I agree with this.  She did need to stop Joffrey, but let's not paint her as a saint.  

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Yes, I agree with this.  She did need to stop Joffrey, but let's not paint her as a saint.  

I never have. I get blamed for doing that with Ginger sis.

15 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

If  Jon winds up on the Iron Throne he can legitimize Gendry and he can continue the Baratheon House.

I don't think Sansa marries anyone again.  But as for Starks, unless Bran stops being the 3 eyed raven and has children, the Stark line ends with Sansa, Arya and Bran, since Jon is a Targaryen(although it's entirely possible that he rejects both names and stays a Snow).   I can't remember though if there are cases of men taking their wives names if they come from a great house.  I know in a fashion that's where Kar-starks came from.  So maybe the Starks continue that way.

Yes, Bale the Bard; absconded with the only child of a Stark lord .He returned her to or they stayed in the crypts and she presented her father with a boy Stark, who eventually unknowingly killed his father in battle.

 

Also there is the shewolves of winterfell where there were no male heirs left, and they had to choose one, but that book didn't come out yet.

Edited August 24, 2017 by GrailKing

[Bryce Lynch]

23 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

Exactly - Arya has always been a Sadistic Crackpot; it's just her victim to torment that can change.  Arya has no idea what truly happened to Sansa, and I think Arya severely underestimates her.  Arya thinks she's the shiznit and best at everything and can do no wrong, but she's just a sociopath.

When was Arya ever "sadistic"?  Vengeful, absolutely, and appropriately so, IMO.  She certainly has some issues after all she's been through and her obsession with vengeance could become a big problem.  But, when did she ever derive pleasure from inflicting pain on innocent people?  

She almost got herself killed for refusing to murder Lady Crane.  

She repeatedly tried to stop The Hound from robbing innocent people.  

When Jacquen told her to name 3 names for him to kill, the first thing that popped into her mind was to kill the "Tickler", the man who brutally tortured the prisoners.  She despises sadists.  

Basically everyone on her hit list was a sadist who had harmed her family of friends (except The Hound, who she mistakenly thought was a sadist).  

When she met the Lannister soldiers on the road and saw them vulnerable with their swords all laid down, she thought to kill her enemies.  But when they offered her food and she saw they were decent guys, she changed her mind.  

Sansa's killing of Ramsey was probably more brutal than anything Arya ever did, but I don't consider Sansa sadistic, because, like those Arya killed, Ramsey richly deserved it.  

Joffrey was sadistic.  Ramsey was sadistic.  Arya has never been sadistic.  

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

When was Arya ever "sadistic"?  Vengeful, absolutely, and appropriately so, IMO.  She certainly has some issues after all she's been through and her obsession with vengeance could become a big problem.  But, when did she ever derive pleasure from inflicting pain on innocent people?  

. . .

Sadism does not require your victims to be innocent.  Does she get gratification or pleasure from inflicting pain or killing those people on her "list"?  Yes.  Therefore, in my opinion, she's sadistic.

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa's killing of Ramsey was probably more brutal than anything Arya ever did

Sansa's killing of Ramsey is one of the most  brutal things that has ever been done by one of the "good guys" on this show. Period. Even more horrifying is the clear glee she takes from witnessing it. It was sadistic and grotesque and would have signaled that Sansa had "become the monster to fight monsters". It would have made the entire Lady Sansa Bolton arc worthwhile if the show had intended to follow through on that. But apparently, that was supposed to be a "girl power" moment with no repercussions or long-term ripple effects. Sansa committed this action and moved on with her psyche perfectly intact. The rest of the North and Jon, who apparently knew about this action of Sansa, are not appalled at her capability for cruelty, nor do they question her sanity.  It might as well have never happened. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sadism does not require your victims to be innocent.  Does she get gratification or pleasure from inflicting pain or killing those people on her "list"?  Yes.  Therefore, in my opinion, she's sadistic.

She gets satisfaction out of punishing evil individuals who killed people she cared about.  That is very different than enjoying inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain.  

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sansa's killing of Ramsey is one of the most  brutal things that has ever been done by one of the "good guys" on this show. Period. Even more horrifying is the clear glee she takes from witnessing it. It was sadistic and grotesque and would have signaled that Sansa had "become the monster to fight monsters". It would have made the entire Lady Sansa Bolton arc worthwhile if the show had intended to follow through on that. But apparently, that was supposed to be a "girl power" moment with no repercussions or long-term ripple effects. Sansa committed this action and moved on with her psyche perfectly intact. The rest of the North and Jon, who apparently knew about this action of Sansa, are not appalled at her capability for cruelty, nor do they question her sanity.  It might as well have never happened. 

I don't agree with the premise that a good person like Sansa, brutally taking revenge on a vile, inhuman sadistic piece of filth who had murdered many people and tortured and tormented her for a long time necessarily turns the person into a "monster".  You don't have to be a monster to kill a monster.  

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sadism does not require your victims to be innocent.  Does she get gratification or pleasure from inflicting pain or killing those people on her "list"?  Yes.  Therefore, in my opinion, she's sadistic.

You admittedly cannot stand the character and caution others taking a middle ground approach to be careful not to make her a saint.  Yet you see no room to move off sadist and that's objective and fair? 

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You don't have to be a monster to kill a monster.  

She killed him in a specifically, deliberately monstrous way. If you act like a monster, you are a monster. 

The story is so skewed towards witnessing Ramsay getting his "just desserts" that it is easy to overlook the kind of psychological deconstruction that was done on Sansa to make her use that specific method - Ramsay's method to murder him.

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't agree with the premise that a good person like Sansa, brutally taking revenge

This statement is actually contradictory, and it also assumes that "good" is an intrinsic, static condition that cannot be altered by environment or circumstances. 

[GrailKing]

15 hours ago, Taget said:

I think she was toying with Sansa.  Sansa sent Brienne away because she was at least considering the idea of offing Arya.  Something Arya probably already suspects from Sansa's body language.  Arya is just putting Sansa on notice that she has her own claws and is not just a tomboy playing soldier.

Something also to keep in mind is Arya was playing a game where one is supposed to lie.  So we can't take all her answers at face value.

But her aim is clearly intimidation not murder as she could easily kill her anytime she wanted.  The question is whether she has an end game.  Whether it is just to test her sister to get a better idea of what makes her tick and whether she is to be trusted.  Or to warn Sansa off from taking violent action against her or Jon.  Or perhaps Arya is intentionally driving Sansa into the arms of Littlefingers towards some desired end.  Whether it is to expose Littlefingers or expose both Sansa and Littlefingers.

Or more ominously after being trained as a killer and being alone for so long she has grown feral and castle life no longer suits her due to an uncontrollable urge to seek out prey.

Sansa sent Brienne away so LF can't use her in his scheme, saves Brienne's honor.

Sansa has no intention of violence on her sister, the only one with such tendencies is Arya.

This is not Arya's arc to play LF, . It's Sansa's and hers alone, Arya's arc what ever it is will be divulged in season 8 as Sansa moves into support role.

I go with my theory, Sansa is playing both LF and Arya, playing LF to end him, playing Arya because to throw LF off he needs to see Arya's distrust and emotions with Sansa.

It's a con and Sansa is the conductor. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

She killed him in a specifically, deliberately monstrous way. If you act like a monster, you are a monster. 

The story is so skewed towards witnessing Ramsay getting his "just desserts" that it is easy to overlook the kind of psychological deconstruction that was done on Sansa to make her use that specific method - Ramsay's method to murder him.

This statement is actually contradictory, and it also assumes that "good" is an intrinsic, static condition that cannot be altered by environment or circumstances. 

My position is that brutally taking revenge on a horribly evil and brutal person is not necessarily "bad".  For example, I was totally OK with Dany crucifying the Masters who has crucified the innocent children.  It served justice and as a deterrent to other people who would torture and kill children or other innocent people.

 Even if we assume it is "bad". a person doing one bad thing, especially under such extreme conditions, like Sansa was under, does not necessarily mean they are going to spiral into darkness and embrace evil or cruelty as a way of life.   

[mac123x]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

When was Arya ever "sadistic"?  

The way she murdered Meryn Trant was pretty sadistic.

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She gets satisfaction out of punishing evil individuals who killed people she cared about.  That is very different than enjoying inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain.  

I don't agree with the premise that a good person like Sansa, brutally taking revenge on a vile, inhuman sadistic piece of filth who had murdered many people and tortured and tormented her for a long time necessarily turns the person into a "monster".  You don't have to be a monster to kill a monster.  

For me those types of extreme judgments of the actions of characters are only possible from the secure and lofty vantage point of a comfy couch by those with absolutely no skin in the game, no potential of ever facing that risk. 

Putting yourself in the shoes of the characters and taking a look around even allows for some understanding of how a monster like Ramsey came to be.  He couldn't be left alive if safety of others, including Sansa in particular, was going to be possible.  IMO it certainly leaves room to understand why Arya's list is quite often closer to self defense and for the good of society than sadism.  It's not like it's a civilized society of laws as we understand it.  The average person was responsible for administering justice on their own behalf.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, mac123x said:

The way she murdered Meryn Trant was pretty sadistic.

Meryn Trant?  Oh, you mean the guy who killed Syrio, tortured Sansa and regularly tortured and raped little girls?  Yeah, she was pretty rough on him.  

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

I meant it as a joke, Show!

If anything, I think they needed to include it to give the Living Team at least a tiny chance to survive.

 

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Inability to resist nitpicking? Desire to know more than the writers? Unwilling to accept this is fantasy? Hellbent on sucking all the fun and enjoyment out of GoT?

This. The amount of nitpicking is really strange. And the nitpicking includes things like "Deux Ex-Machina Benjen" or "the chain origins" that the show already answered with plot elements previously included on screen.

Edited August 24, 2017 by OhOkayWhat