S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[MrsR]

All Gendry needs is a title.  Titles can be handed out.  Owen Tudor had no title and was an obscure Welshman with no rights. His sons both had titles and were designated Englishmen with rights.  

[GraceK]

Just now, MrsR said:

All Gendry needs is a title.  Titles can be handed out.  Owen Tudor had no title and was an obscure Welshman with no rights. His sons both had titles and were designated Englishmen with rights.  

Even with a title, what possible sense does a marriage between Dany and Gendry make? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just honestly don't get why those 2 should get together.

[YaddaYadda]

21 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Which didn't help Lady Hornwood, she died of starvation after eating her fingers off.

But back to this episode, in HBO Westeros, it doesn't matter one iota......apparently there IS legal annulment (as we saw with the Sam/Gilly scene last week), but whatever serves moving the plot is going to be what's accepted, de facto or de jure.

Setting aside the the circumstances under which Lady Hornwood was married, that wedding happened before a heart tree, and we don't even know how that kind of marriage can be undone at all. But that's another ballgame. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Setting aside the the circumstances under which Lady Hornwood was married, that wedding happened before a heart tree, and we don't even know how that kind of marriage can be undone at all. But that's another ballgame. 

Thanks, I didn't remember the Heart Tree.  Which is a northern custom, as the Old Gods are prevalent in the North.  As you say, we just don't know.  Poor Lady Hornwood.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

 Not that similar. Neither one was a bastard. Elizabeth of York was a legitimate princess in the eyes of the people, even if her parents marriage was declared illegitimate by Richard at the last minute. Henry Tudor was also the last Lancastrian claimant, he may be considered a conqueror who usurped the throne, but he wasn't a bastard either, his family was noble at the least. Henry needed the york marriage alliance to truly cement his claim in the eyes of the people, why on earth Does Dany need Gendry? It's her family whose the dynastic family, it's was her fathers throne and her ancestors who forged it. Gendry is a LOWBORN bastard, who the people would have no loyalty too. An alliance between them would make no sense.

And it's not even a war between the Baratheons and the Targaryens anymore, Dany is fighting against the Lannisters. So again, what would a marriage to Gendry possibly bring her even if he was made legitimate?

I don't think it will happen, but a Dany-Gendry marriage would unite the Baratheons and Targaryens, the families with the 2 strongest claims to the throne.  Cersei's claim is really a Baratheon claim (by marriage and motherhood) not a Lannsister claim as well as sort of a claim by conquest as she just sat on the throne after she blew up the Sept of Baelor and Tommen died.  

[GraceK]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think it will happen, but a Dany-Gendry marriage would unite the Baratheons and Targaryens, the families with the 2 strongest claims to the throne.  Cersei's claim is really a Baratheon claim (by marriage and motherhood) not a Lannsister claim as well as sort of a claim by conquest as she just sat on the throne after she blew up the Sept of Baelor and Tommen died.  

I can see what your saying but I disagree. Technically the Baretheons are gone. Renly and Stannis were the last ones with an actual claim, and they are dead. I don't think Westeros is loyal to the memory of King Robert, who is still a relatively new King, that they would be overjoyed for his bastard to claim the iron throne . It just doesn't make much sense to me. Just my opinion :)

 

just to add, I guess the proper way to explain my point is that I don't think  DANY herself would see any benefit in uniting the families. She doesn't give any credit to the Baretheon claim at all and I dont think she would lower herself to marry Gendry even if she did.

Edited August 23, 2017 by GraceK

[Tikichick]

13 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Exactly.....in Sandor Clegane's fire vision w/the Brotherhood in the dead farmer's hut, he said they were east, "near the sea".  In fact, they filmed "the waves are frozen" dialog by the Hound, but cut it.  I think it's south of Hardhome as well, very close to the wall.   The chains may have come from Hardhome, as it is a port of sorts.

And we know Tormund and the wildlings were manning Eastwatch, and Tormund bagged the Brotherhood just south as they were headed to Eastwatch.  Edd is at the Wall.

Talk about a scene I would have loved to see -- Tormund's wildling "watch" detaining the Hound.

[arjumand]

In this episode, we finally got the confirmation that there's no Lady Stoneheart in the show, if any of us were still wondering, heh.

Sandor tells Gendry, about Beric "He's died six times, you don't see him whinging!"

In the books, Beric died seven times, the last one to bring Catelyn back to life, because Thoros refused to do it.

I think that Arya took her place - she's the new Lady Stoneheart, but not as extreme, because she's not a zombie. That's where all the serial killer like dialogue / scenes are coming from. I'm hoping that Arya will burst in on Sansa, just  to mess with her a little more, and Sansa will be standing over the body of Petyr Baelish.

"Violent enough for you, sister? Now come on, do the face thing, and hurry up."

[MarySNJ]

2 minutes ago, arjumand said:

In this episode, we finally got the confirmation that there's no Lady Stoneheart in the show, if any of us were still wondering, heh.

Sandor tells Gendry, about Beric "He's died six times, you don't see him whinging!"

In the books, Beric died seven times, the last one to bring Catelyn back to life, because Thoros refused to do it.

I think that Arya took her place - she's the new Lady Stoneheart, but not as extreme, because she's not a zombie. That's where all the serial killer like dialogue / scenes are coming from. I'm hoping that Arya will burst in on Sansa, just  to mess with her a little more, and Sansa will be standing over the body of Petyr Baelish.

"Violent enough for you, sister? Now come on, do the face thing, and hurry up."

I agree. I've been thinking this season that Arya is meant to be the Stark who seeks vengeance against those who killed her family. She poisoned most (all?) of the Frey men, to eliminate the need for the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart to hang them one by one. 

BTW, I love your Kill Baelish scenario. But I don't think Sansa will do the dirty work when he meets his end but it would be sweet. 

[Blonde Gator]

30 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Talk about a scene I would have loved to see -- Tormund's wildling "watch" detaining the Hound.

Oh Hell yeah!  I'd take that over the silly Stark sisters' made-up drama any day of the week!

[Bryce Lynch]

45 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I can see what your saying but I disagree. Technically the Baretheons are gone. Renly and Stannis were the last ones with an actual claim, and they are dead. I don't think Westeros is loyal to the memory of King Robert, who is still a relatively new King, that they would be overjoyed for his bastard to claim the iron throne . It just doesn't make much sense to me. Just my opinion :)

 

just to add, I guess the proper way to explain my point is that I don't think  DANY herself would see any benefit in uniting the families. She doesn't give any credit to the Baretheon claim at all and I dont think she would lower herself to marry Gendry even if she did.

Yes, I see your point.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of popular support for ANY House or claimant with regards to the Iron Throne, in Westeros right now.  

* I assume pretty much everyone hates Cersei.  

* Dany is a newcomer and probably seen as scary outsider by most.

* The Baratheon brothers are both dead.  Robert's bastard son is unknown to the people, and...a bastard.

* Jon is popular (though not universally) in the North, but I don't think he even wants the Iron Throne and is probably not popular outside the North.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Tikichick]

18 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I agree. I've been thinking this season that Arya is meant to be the Stark who seeks vengeance against those who killed her family. She poisoned most (all?) of the Frey men, to eliminate the need for the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart to hang them one by one. 

BTW, I love your Kill Baelish scenario. But I don't think Sansa will do the dirty work when he meets his end but it would be sweet. 

I do think in the end it will be Sansa.  So fitting he will be dispatched by someone who is the living replica of his great love.  

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh Hell yeah!  I'd take that over the silly Stark sisters' made-up drama any day of the week!

I've finally become convinced that we have been seeing a tremendous con being played in concert by the Sisters Stark in very stealth harmony.  It's been a long few days, but I have finally been made to understand what it was I saw and heard, and did not hear, Sunday.  I read an overview by someone who pointed out that if Arya's training enabled her to be silently standing behind Sansa in that bedroom when we just heard the door creak when Sansa attempted to enter oh so quietly, there's no way Arya wasn't attracting LF's attention deliberately when spying on him and discovering the scroll.  They are drawing LF out.

For me, it's sisters doing it for themselves.

[Bryce Lynch]

36 minutes ago, arjumand said:

In this episode, we finally got the confirmation that there's no Lady Stoneheart in the show, if any of us were still wondering, heh.

Sandor tells Gendry, about Beric "He's died six times, you don't see him whinging!"

In the books, Beric died seven times, the last one to bring Catelyn back to life, because Thoros refused to do it.

I think that Arya took her place - she's the new Lady Stoneheart, but not as extreme, because she's not a zombie. That's where all the serial killer like dialogue / scenes are coming from. I'm hoping that Arya will burst in on Sansa, just  to mess with her a little more, and Sansa will be standing over the body of Petyr Baelish.

"Violent enough for you, sister? Now come on, do the face thing, and hurry up."

It probably isn't possible, as Cersei likely knows of or suspects Little Finger's  involvement in Joffrey's murder, or at least in Sansa's escape, but I would LOVE to see Arya use LF's face to kill Cersei.  Maybe LF could bring Sansa to Cersei to torture and murder, but then pull off his face to reveal he is really Arya.   

[arjumand]

28 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

BTW, I love your Kill Baelish scenario. But I don't think Sansa will do the dirty work when he meets his end but it would be sweet. 

Thank you! I know right - it would be awesome, but they have to have their grand moment of Petyr meeting his doom. 

Or maybe Bran will finally wake up (Bran trippin') and give us some more monotone truths:

"I was watching, Lord Baelish, as you betrayed my father, my mother, killed Aunt Lysa, caused the war, and poisoned Joffrey. You looked so beautiful." Then it's Stark Smash!

I wish I could believe that it's the Stark sisters pulling a long con, but there's been at least one time when they were on their own, in a room with the door closed, when there was no reason to keep up the charade. I mean, does Petyr have someone hiding under Arya's bed? 

I'm starting to think they're acting separately, each not trusting the other - and I don't blame Sansa one little bit.

She's been nothing but welcoming and happy with each sibling arriving at Winterfell, and they both replied with a resounding "Fuck you and your reunion!" I don't blame her for being resentful that she went through horrible things, just like they did, but she still manages to keep up the human being facade, while Bran is Data without his emotions chip and Arya's HAL (I'm afraid I can't do that, Sansa).

[Bryce Lynch]

One thing we have learned for certain from this episode is:

Ice Javelin > Big Crossbow

[Heathrowe]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think it will happen, but a Dany-Gendry marriage would unite the Baratheons and Targaryens, the families with the 2 strongest claims to the throne.  Cersei's claim is really a Baratheon claim (by marriage and motherhood) not a Lannsister claim as well as sort of a claim by conquest as she just sat on the throne after she blew up the Sept of Baelor and Tommen died.  

I would say....the advantage for Dany is that Gendry could become the Kings Landing local "hometown hero" who is not weirdly closely related to her....even if her claim is good, she is going to be seen as an outsider/conqueror by Westeros. Maybe the smallfolk would like that he comes from a common background. Maybe he'll become a folk hero.(Lots of maybe's, I know!)  I would  assume that before anything like Dany-Gendry happened, more characters would be cleared and there'd be some plot maneuvering to give Gendry a following, a title, etc. He has a classic hero arc of coming from nothing, avoiding death, learning his true identity....now what happens with him? 

[BitterApple]

I'm really hoping Arya/Sansa doesn't turn out to be a long con, because for me it's just one more steaming turd on the shit pile known as the S7 Winterfell Storyline. 

At this point, why play games? Arya could put on one of her many faces, murder Lord Baelish in broad daylight and nobody would be the wiser. Or go the more subtle route. After all the time that Arya spent training, she couldn't stage a death to look like an accident or a natural occurrence? 

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I've finally become convinced that we have been seeing a tremendous con being played in concert by the Sisters Stark in very stealth harmony.  It's been a long few days, but I have finally been made to understand what it was I saw and heard, and did not hear, Sunday.  I read an overview by someone who pointed out that if Arya's training enabled her to be silently standing behind Sansa in that bedroom when we just heard the door creak when Sansa attempted to enter oh so quietly, there's no way Arya wasn't attracting LF's attention deliberately when spying on him and discovering the scroll.  They are drawing LF out.

For me, it's sisters doing it for themselves.

I would be happy with that.  And annoyed (in a meta sense) like BitterApple says: why drag it out.

 

My biggest problem with any of the "Sansa, Arya, or both of them are pulling a long con" is that they set up something similar with Arya and the Waif last season that turned out to be that Arya had no plan and is in fact a moron for swanning about Braavos when she knows the League of Assassins is after her.  Fool me once, shame on the writers.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they read some of the feedback after that episode and took it to heart and decided to make Arya (and/or Sansa) clever, but I doubt it.

20 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I'm really hoping Arya/Sansa doesn't turn out to be a long con, because for me it's just one more steaming turd on the shit pile known as the S7 Winterfell Storyline. 

At this point, why play games? Arya could put on one of her many faces, murder Lord Baelish in broad daylight and nobody would be the wiser. Or go the more subtle route. After all the time that Arya spent training, she couldn't stage a death to look like an accident or a natural occurrence? 

Gotta pad this season out to ten seven episodes!  Oh wait...  If they are going to kill Baelish off this season, they probably should have just gotten it over with shortly after Dr. Branhattan said "Chaos is a ladder".

Edited August 23, 2017 by mac123x

[domina89]

So do you guys think there was anything to Sandor's comment to Tormund about hating gingers?  Can we read anything into that?  I guess what I am getting at is Sansa is a ginger.  I'm not really a SanSan shipper, but I think I would be a little hurt by his comment if I were...

Edited August 23, 2017 by domina89
grammatical error

[Oscirus]

If the sisters were  pulling a long con wouldn't  it make sense to make littlefinger  the  pov character? That way  we'd have smug littlefinger viewing his plan working and it would be that much more satisfying when the rug gets pulled out from under him

[Tikichick]

14 minutes ago, domina89 said:

So do you guys think there was anything to Sandor's comment to Tormund about hating gingers?  Can we read anything into that?  I guess what I am getting at is Sansa is a ginger.  I'm not really a SanSan shipper, but I think I would be a little hurt by his comment if I was...

I wondered if it was more the kissed by fire angle they were looking to highlight because of some significance?

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

when she knows the League of Assassins is after her.

As far we know, she did not know that.

And I also don't think it's a long con plot. They are just following all the elements previously stablished in Arya and Sansa show-plots instead of writing Winterfell storyline as fanservice. At least that's my opinion.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

So do you guys think there was anything to Sandor's comment to Tormund about hating gingers?  Can we read anything into that?  I guess what I am getting at is Sansa is a ginger.  I'm not really a SanSan shipper, but I think I would be a little hurt by his comment if I was...

I think it's mostly writing the chat between characters about plot elements they share: ginger (Tormund) and the "kissed by fire" expression (Sandor's scars); and Brienne who both they know.

Edited August 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Wulfsige]

I really don't think the sisters are pulling a long con. I think what we're seeing is more or less what's going on. Sansa is still a bit gormless as usual, probably doesn't trust Littlefinger but needs his army, and Arya has apparently taken on this season's role of Sadistic Crackpot Who Focuses on Tormenting Sansa. I suspect Littlefinger will meet his demise by a Suddenly Enlightened Sansa. As to Arya, I have no thoughts, but she might want to keep in mind what happened to Ramsey and that Sansa might be fed up with being constantly threatened.

Quote

So do you guys think there was anything to Sandor's comment to Tormund about hating gingers?  Can we read anything into that?  I guess what I am getting at is Sansa is a ginger.  I'm not really a SanSan shipper, but I think I would be a little hurt by his comment if I was...

Aw, not really a shipper either but I think that was the Hound being the Hound. Sort of 'oh, damn them all!...okay, harrumph, I don't really mean that...' 

[OhOkayWhat]

5 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

Arya has apparently taken on this season's role of Sadistic Crackpot Who Focuses on Tormenting Sansa.

Arya is behaving following what is established previously with her character.

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

I really don't think the sisters are pulling a long con. I think what we're seeing is more or less what's going on. Sansa is still a bit gormless as usual, probably doesn't trust Littlefinger but needs his army, and Arya has apparently taken on this season's role of Sadistic Crackpot Who Focuses on Tormenting Sansa. I suspect Littlefinger will meet his demise by a Suddenly Enlightened Sansa. As to Arya, I have no thoughts, but she might want to keep in mind what happened to Ramsey and that Sansa might be fed up with being constantly threatened.

Aw, not really a shipper either but I think that was the Hound being the Hound. Sort of 'oh, damn them all!...okay, harrumph, I don't really mean that...' 

 

2 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Arya is behaving following what is established previously with her character.

Exactly - Arya has always been a Sadistic Crackpot; it's just her victim to torment that can change.  Arya has no idea what truly happened to Sansa, and I think Arya severely underestimates her.  Arya thinks she's the shiznit and best at everything and can do no wrong, but she's just a sociopath.

[OhOkayWhat]

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Exactly - Arya has always been a Sadistic Crackpot;

I disagree. In my opinion, I think her character struggles with a lot of darkness inside her.

Edited August 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[MrsR]

I agree that Arya is following her original character. Her first act in the entire show was to torment Bran with the archery lesson. Then she expresses interest in the Imp. Second episode she is qiuick to attack Joffrey. (He deserved it, but it was a bad idea.) She was never conventional or devoted to her sister and she was always violent.

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, MrsR said:

I agree that Arya is following her original character. Her first act in the entire show was to torment Bran with the archery lesson. Then she expresses interest in the Imp. Second episode she is qiuick to attack Joffrey. (He deserved it, but it was a bad idea.) She was never conventional or devoted to her sister and she was always violent.

I don't think she was "tormenting" Bran, just showing him up a little with her archery skills.  She sucked a needle work and other "girl's stuff" and she wanted to show she could do "boy stuff".  Arya didn't "attack" Joffrey.  He was cutting the butcher's boy's face with his sword and threatening him and Arya hit him the back with a stick to protect the boy.  And she didn't do it quickly.    That was courageous, not "violent".   If she was violent, at that point, she could have killed Joffrey and thrown him in the river, instead of his sword.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[blackwing]

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

just to add, I guess the proper way to explain my point is that I don't think  DANY herself would see any benefit in uniting the families. She doesn't give any credit to the Baretheon claim at all and I dont think she would lower herself to marry Gendry even if she did.

But that hasn't stopped her from making googly eyes at Jon?  She seemed particularly attracted to him in this episode.  She knows he is a bastard and as far as she knows, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, a traitor to her house.  Even though he has been proclaimed King in the North, in her belief, he is still a bastard, and why would she lower herself to be with him?

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

But that hasn't stopped her from making googly eyes at Jon?  She seemed particularly attracted to him in this episode.  She knows he is a bastard and as far as she knows, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, a traitor to her house.  Even though he has been proclaimed King in the North, in her belief, he is still a bastard, and why would she lower herself to be with him?

Jon is a bastard, but he is also a King, even if Dany doesn't totally recognize his title at this point.  She would clearly recognize him a Lord and Warden of the North, at a minimum. Gendry is a bastard blacksmith from the family that "stole" the throne from her father.

Also, just because Dany is attracted to Jon, that does not necessarily mean she would marry him if she felt doing so would hurt her chances of gaining the Iron Throne, or if a more politically beneficial marriage would help her get the throne.  

[FnkyChkn34]

35 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I disagree. In my opinion, I think her character struggles with a lot of darkness inside her.

Sorry, we'll clearly have to agree to disagree.  All homicidal sociopaths (aka sadistic crackpots) probably struggle with a lot of darkness inside of them; just because they have darkness inside of them doesn't make them any less of a homicidal sociopath or sadistic crackpot.

29 minutes ago, MrsR said:

I agree that Arya is following her original character. Her first act in the entire show was to torment Bran with the archery lesson. Then she expresses interest in the Imp. Second episode she is qiuick to attack Joffrey. (He deserved it, but it was a bad idea.) She was never conventional or devoted to her sister and she was always violent.

Violence is the answer for her, to everything.  And we can't blame it on witnessing Ned's death because she clearly had a penchant for violence long before then.  She always wanted to learn how to fight.

14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think she was "tormenting" Bran, just showing him up a little with her archery skills.  She sucked a needle work and other "girl's stuff" and she wanted to show she could do "boy stuff".  Arya didn't "attack" Joffrey.  He was cutting the butcher's boy's face with his sword and threatening him and Arya hit him the back with a stick to protect the boy.  And she didn't do it quickly.    That was courageous, not "violent".   If she was violent, at that point, she could have killed Joffrey and thrown him in the river, instead of his sword.

It can be both.  Maybe it was courageous to stop Joffrey, but hitting him is also violent.  It doesn't have to be one or the other, IMO.  And Arya is clearly violent.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, blackwing said:

But that hasn't stopped her from making googly eyes at Jon?  She seemed particularly attracted to him in this episode.  She knows he is a bastard and as far as she knows, he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, a traitor to her house.  Even though he has been proclaimed King in the North, in her belief, he is still a bastard, and why would she lower herself to be with him?

Because he is a King. He was chosen to be King in the north by his people, it wasn't a title just given to him by another monarch just because. He may be a bastard ( as far as she knows) but he is a bastard who controls a huge part of the kingdom she wishes to rule, is noble born, and has already proven himself in her eyes to be worth her respect. And it's vice versa, he respects her and considers her worthy of his respect. They are 2 equals, according to the writers. And even if nothing I just said was true, SHE likes HIM. And that's what matters. She doesn't know Gendry, his father murdered her brother and usurped her throne , and he's also lowborn. Also, why would Gendry want to marry her? Nothing so far has shown him to be hungry for the iron throne.  Gendry doesn't even consider himself to be equal  with Arya, cause she's a lady. 

i like Gendry and I think his story is interesting. I just don't think there is chance in hell he would be married to Dany. It makes zero sense and there has been nothing at all that even leads up to it. 

[LocimusPrime]

On 8/20/2017 at 9:24 PM, taurusrose said:

Sansa is a cow and a bitch. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it's mine. 

She's annoying 

[Bryce Lynch]

29 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry, we'll clearly have to agree to disagree.  All homicidal sociopaths (aka sadistic crackpots) probably struggle with a lot of darkness inside of them; just because they have darkness inside of them doesn't make them any less of a homicidal sociopath or sadistic crackpot.

Violence is the answer for her, to everything.  And we can't blame it on witnessing Ned's death because she clearly had a penchant for violence long before then.  She always wanted to learn how to fight.

It can be both.  Maybe it was courageous to stop Joffrey, but hitting him is also violent.  It doesn't have to be one or the other, IMO.  And Arya is clearly violent.

Joffrey was slicing up the boy's face with a sword and she whacked him on the back with a stick.  Defense of innocent people by reasonable, physical force is not "violence" any more than returning something that was stolen to the victim is "stealing".   It is the opposite of violence.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[RedheadZombie]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Joffrey was slicing up the boy's face with a sword and she whacked him on the back with a stick.  Defense of innocent people by reasonable, physical force is not "violence" any more than returning something that was stolen to the victim is "stealing".   It is the opposite of violence.  

So many people seem to love Sansa and hate Arya, or vice versa.  I like them both.  Arya is my favorite character on the show, but Sansa has grown from a superficial, seemingly weak young girl to a strong woman and a survivor.  Neither of them are perfect, but I see them both as good guys.

I care for both sisters, but Arya needs to straighten up a little because I named my kitten after her.  I'm going to feel like a fool if she ends up being a villain - not that I think she will.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry, we'll clearly have to agree to disagree.

Usually this kind of discussions end being discussions about the proper use of the words, meaning, etc. Instead, I usually like to focus about the light vs. darkness inside of Arya soul theme that I see in the show.

[Wulfsige]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Joffrey was slicing up the boy's face with a sword and she whacked him on the back with a stick.  Defense of innocent people by reasonable, physical force is not "violence" any more than returning something that was stolen to the victim is "stealing".   It is the opposite of violence.  

The irony now, of course, is that she's threatening to slice up (well, slice off) her sister's face. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Wulfsige said:

The irony now, of course, is that she's threatening to slice up (well, slice off) her sister's face. 

That wasn't a threat.  As Tyrion would put it, she was educating her sister. :)

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I usually like to focus about the light vs. darkness inside of Arya soul theme that I see in the show.

She is definitely fighting some inner demons. I wonder if she thought she would never go home again, never see her family again. It is easier to be a vengeful killing machine when you don't have to face the people you love. While she was out on her own she had no one to stop her from acting on her primal instincts. No one that she thought enough of to care what they thought. 

I think the whole confrontation with Sansa might have been Arya testing herself in a way. She clearly liked scaring Sansa. She gets off on the power her violence gives her. She's never happier than when she's being violent. But Sansa is her sister, her blood and I think she was kind of toying with how far she would go. In the end realizing that, even is she does want to, she won't harm her sister. She is still human. She is not No One. Not at Winterfell. At home she will always be Arya Stark. Like Sansa secretly wanting to be queen of the north but not going for it because Jon is her brother and she cares for him. I think Arya (not so) secretly wanted to hurt Sansa for her past betrayals but will not doing it because Sansa is her sister and deep down she cares for her. They are both fighting their darker desires. 

I think...I hope that Arya returning to Winterfell will mean Arya returning to herself. She doesn't have to be No One. There is more to life than killing your enemies. That's a Cercei sort of life. And who the fuck wants to be that mad, brother fucking cow? 

I have always wanted Sansa to be the one who kills Littlefinger, but I would be happy if Arya did it on Sansa's behalf. Not to save Sansa from the bad man but because Sansa wanted him dead and Arya offered her expertise. Together the Stark Sisters would be unstoppable. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Usually this kind of discussions end being discussions about the proper use of the words, meaning, etc. Instead, I usually like to focus about the light vs. darkness inside of Arya soul theme that I see in the show.

I agree she has darkness in her.  But honestly, I don't care about the character enough to get in an in-depth conversation about that.  She's the worst, IMO, and my least favorite of the main characters.  I've seen nothing redeeming about her in many seasons, her storyline hasn't interested me in the least, and I don't care what happens to her.

[Gwen-Stacys]

3 hours ago, Wulfsige said:

The irony now, of course, is that she's threatening to slice up (well, slice off) her sister's face. 

She was playing the game. She did warn Sansa that she wouldn't enjoy being the asker, lol! I knew she wasn't being serious the moment she said "I wonder what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses. Be the Lady of Winterfell." Arya has never wanted any of those things and has even scoffed at them.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

 Instead, I usually like to focus about the light vs. darkness inside of Arya soul theme that I see in the show.

That reminds me of Dexter and his Dark Passenger.  Actually, what about Dexter-esque spinoff  with Arya as Dexter and ghost! Ned Stark as ghost! Dexter's dad ??? :D :D :D

[Shimmergloom]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:07 PM, stagmania said:

Gendry is also not on Sansa's level. He's cute, guys, but he's not suitable husband material for any great ladies of Westeros.

If  Jon winds up on the Iron Throne he can legitimize Gendry and he can continue the Baratheon House.

I don't think Sansa marries anyone again.  But as for Starks, unless Bran stops being the 3 eyed raven and has children, the Stark line ends with Sansa, Arya and Bran, since Jon is a Targaryen(although it's entirely possible that he rejects both names and stays a Snow).   I can't remember though if there are cases of men taking their wives names if they come from a great house.  I know in a fashion that's where Kar-starks came from.  So maybe the Starks continue that way.

[Heckler52317]

My heart breaks for Dany losing one of her children. That said- for my enjoyment of the story the Night King had to have something to combat dragons with or there is no tension in that conflict. He's obviously high level with powerful magics so I have no issue with the IceStinger missile...

Were my platoon in the 82nd with them on that island we would have all drowned- we'd have joined in the rock throwing and not had an island left!

im not sure where the Sansa/Arya thing is going, but I trust it will be cool and surprising. I'm amazed at the acting there, given the two are so close in real life. I like to think they giggled and hugged afterwords. 

Im not enjoying Tyrion this season- does he own stock in Tarly Family Business LLC?

[rmontro]

Why do you think Daenerys pulled away from Jon at the last minute while Jon was recuperating on the ship?

1)  Was it because she sensed something was "off" because she is really his aunt? (although with all the incest and Targaryean history I'm not sure she'd care)

2)  Was it because Jon needed the rest?

3)  Was it because she felt unworthy because she cannot have children?

4)  Maybe she was a little creeped out because he's been resurrected?

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Why do you think Daenerys pulled away from Jon at the last minute while Jon was recuperating on the ship?

1)  Was it because she sensed something was "off" because she is really his aunt? (although with all the incest and Targaryean history I'm not sure she'd care)

2)  Was it because Jon needed the rest?

3)  Was it because she felt unworthy because she cannot have children?

4)  Maybe she was a little creeped out because he's been resurrected?

None of the above. It's because she is realizing she cares for him, maybe loves him, and she's afraid. She just lost her child and has strong feelings for this man, feelings she hasn't felt in a long time. I think it's all overwhelming and she pulled herself back.

[skiracing12]

I was also a little thrown off by the travel speeds in this episode but this article helped to make it seem a little more reasonable in my mind and less like the writers were taking shortcuts for the plot if they actually did this research

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/08/22/the-math-behind-that-game-of-thrones-supersonic-911-rescue-raven/#4d0965437365

[Taget]

10 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

She was playing the game. She did warn Sansa that she wouldn't enjoy being the asker, lol! I knew she wasn't being serious the moment she said "I wonder what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses. Be the Lady of Winterfell." Arya has never wanted any of those things and has even scoffed at them.

I think she was toying with Sansa.  Sansa sent Brienne away because she was at least considering the idea of offing Arya.  Something Arya probably already suspects from Sansa's body language.  Arya is just putting Sansa on notice that she has her own claws and is not just a tomboy playing soldier.

Something also to keep in mind is Arya was playing a game where one is supposed to lie.  So we can't take all her answers at face value.

But her aim is clearly intimidation not murder as she could easily kill her anytime she wanted.  The question is whether she has an end game.  Whether it is just to test her sister to get a better idea of what makes her tick and whether she is to be trusted.  Or to warn Sansa off from taking violent action against her or Jon.  Or perhaps Arya is intentionally driving Sansa into the arms of Littlefingers towards some desired end.  Whether it is to expose Littlefingers or expose both Sansa and Littlefingers.

Or more ominously after being trained as a killer and being alone for so long she has grown feral and castle life no longer suits her due to an uncontrollable urge to seek out prey.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Taget
typos typos and a typo.

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, GraceK said:

None of the above. It's because she is realizing she cares for him, maybe loves him, and she's afraid. She just lost her child and has strong feelings for this man, feelings she hasn't felt in a long time. I think it's all overwhelming and she pulled herself back.

Thanks for that, GraceK.

You know, all along, I've thought that Dany was going to die and Jon Snow was going to end up on the throne.  But now I'm beginning to wonder if Jon might die and Dany might end up on the throne.

Someone was also asking who Sansa would end up with.  This is a long shot, but I wonder if she might choose to stay married to Tyrion.  After all the men she's been associated with, Tyrion is one of the few honorable men she's known.