S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[CountryGirl]

My take on the Arya.Sansa scenes:

Ayra joins Sansa on the courtyard balcony and recalls Ned watching her practice archery, something girls certainly weren’t supposed to do. It’s a warm moment between the sisters but it’s short-lived as Arya confronts Sansa about the contents of the letter Sansa was forced to write to Robb, telling him their father was a traitor and to come to KL. A letter Robb saw right through. Sansa protests that she was a child (she was) and forced to write this, which, true. But Ayra insists she wouldn’t have done it. She then stuns Sansa when she reveals she was in the crowd the day Ned was beheaded.

Sansa challenges her here:

 

 

But wanting is not the same as doing and both know they were powerless to stop their father’s murder.

Ayra then threatens to tell the northern lords about the letter as Sansa blanches in reaction. Ayra ups the ante by asking her what Lady Mormont would have done when told to write the letter and I’m sure it would have been some version of telling everyone to go fuck themselves. And her head would have likely ended up on a spike next to Ned’s.

Sansa has had enough of this and snaps back at her sister: “You should be on your knees thanking me. We’re standing in Winterfell again because of me…I suffered things you can never imagine. You never would have survived what I survived…Do you know how happy Cersei would be if she saw us fighting?” Well, I’m sure Littlefinger is thrilled because you just know he’s lurking in the shadows somewhere, munching on medieval popcorn. More on that later. Sansa has an excellent point although I think it can be argued that Sansa wouldn’t have survived what Arya survived. So it’s a draw in the misery Olympics, I’d say, but Arya is too angry to listen to Sansa anymore at this point.

Later, Sansa meets with Littlefinger who totally lies about where Arya found the letter. A lie Sansa could easily have found out by checking in with a few key people. Sansa is upset about the fickleness of the Northern bannerman whom she feels are wavering yet again with Jon’s absence. Littlefinger wastes no time in pouncing on Sansa’s insecurities with not only the Northern lords but her own sister, suggesting Brienne would be honor-bound as Sansa’s knight to intercede if Arya were to harm her.

He’s doing his utmost to fan the flames of her doubts and insecurities and a rivalry with her sister so he can play the big white knight, I suppose, and have her trusting only him as she did in the Vale. Chaos. It’s Littlefinger’s middle name.

Sansa then gets a letter from King’s Landing, requesting her presence at a summit (the summit Dany and Jon Snow are setting up to prove the threat of the WW is the real deal). Sansa is all “hell to the no” and says that Brienne will attend in her place. So clearly she isn’t threatened by Arya if she would allow her sworn protector to go to KL in her stead (but interestingly enough, that’s completely lost on LF). Brienne is leery of leaving Sansa behind with LF but Sansa plays Lady Stark to the hilt here, sending Brienne on her way. So presumably, a reunion with Jaime is in the works.

Later still, Sansa searches Arya’s room, clearly intent on finding the letter but finds Ayra’s satchel of faces instead. One looks like that of Walder Frey. Sansa is clearly freaked out by her discovery. Arya catches her and acts quite menacingly. But I believe it’s all part of Ayra’s plan. Ayra has never been the guileless girl her sister once was but the Ayra that has returned to Winterfell seems so out of character, not terribly unlike the Waif. That moment in E4 when Ayra saw LF watching her, she had a look on her face, trying to figure out what exactly he’s doing here. It’s pretty obvious he’s here for Sansa and wants her for his own personal and political gain. Ayra seems very harsh but she has been the lone wolf for so long. She doesn’t understand what Sansa went through – knowing it was bad doesn’t tell the tale. So I think for Ayra, she’s concerned for Sansa, Lady Stark or not, believing her to be just as vulnerable as she was during her time in King’s Landing. I see her as wanting to protect her older sister, but she’s used to working alone as she’s had to rely on herself for so long now (not realizing, Sansa has as well). Bringing Sansa into her plan doesn’t even occur to her and she certainly doesn’t think Sansa capable of being manipulative. She knows LF is watching her and watching her with Sansa. All the time. So she’s playing the part to perfection, most recently with the petty bickering they’ve had of late. She’s lulling LF into a false sense of security.

And then, things take a seemingly more sinister turn as she invites Sansa to play the game of lies with her. Sansa does not want to play along. At all. So Arya plays for her and talks about how she can be anyone.

She tells her "I can even be YOU" as she takes LF's dagger into her hand.

 

 

 

And here it is, with the "pretty dresses" comment, Arya is letting her in on her plan – it’s clearly a lie and Sansa knows it’s a lie. But LF doesn’t. And that’s the point.

 

 

She asks Sansa, for LF’s benefit, since we know he’s lurking somewhere: “You’re scared, aren’t you? What are you scared of?”

She tells Sansa in one of the lines of the series that: “The world just doesn’t let girls decide what they’re going to be.“ Until now.

She symbolically hands the catspaw dagger, the hilt facing Sansa and in that wordless gesture, I saw the faith and trust Arya still has in her sister. Arya exits, leaving Sansa to look down at the dagger in her head and I think realization is dawning in Sansa.

 

And my thoughts on Viserion:

Mostly, I’m just heartbroken and Viserion’s death has hit me harder than any loss I’ve seen thus far. I don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion that losing Lady, Grey Wind, ShaggyDog, and Summer have always hit us harder than any other human death except, perhaps, those of Shireen and Hodor and as of last night, Benjen. But seeing him fall and hearing his screams and those of his brothers, powerless to help him, just killed me. So yes, I am crying over a CGI dragon and I will take a moment to give Viserion his due.  Named for Dany’s brother in the hopes he would be the dragon the crazy, evil Viserys wasn’t, he, like Rhaegal, seemed to always be in the shadow of Drogon, who is clearly Dany’s favorite. And this is not to doubt how much Dany loved him. Her grief is painfully obvious.  It just makes me sad to think of all those months he and Rhaegal were locked in a crypt when it was Drogon who killed that little girl. How both cried for the mother they believed had abandoned them and finally refused to eat they were so sad. How they are half Drogon’s size because of being left to languish, chained in the dark.

I think of how Viserion, along with Rhaegal, took to Tyrion, sensing a friend, and my heart breaks to think of him sidling up to Tyrion after Rhaegal was released as if to say, “Me, too! Me, too!”

 

And when the three of them were just babies (sniff!):

 

And when they were still small, notice Viserion right by Dany’s side and turning his head to look at her but, of course, Drogon gets all the petting and attention:

 

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m almost glad he’s been turned into a wight dragon so at least he’s not completely gone and maybe there’s some magic or trick up Bran’s sleeve to somehow turn him back again once the WW are defeated and so help me if Drogon and Rhaegal don’t get revenge and roast that motherfucking NK or Viserion, himself, kills him, I will burn shit down myself. I know that that line of thinking is foolish as it would be too much like a happy ending and I have a feeling the ending we’ll get with this show is bittersweet at best. I don’t even want to think about the possibility that Drogon and/or Rhaegal will have to take their own brother out. Because the heart wants what the heart wants and I want to see an alive, thriving Viserion flying high above King’s Landing with his two brothers with “cousin” Jon on the Iron Throne below.

I can’t even say RIP Viserion…damn…

Edited August 21, 2017 by CountryGirl

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Starting with the way she treated Ned once he decided she might do better than Joffrey. Remember the doll Ned gave her, that she pretty much threw in his face? You see that doll in Season 6, IIRC, hanging on a vanity or some such, a visual cue to the remorse that she has never expressed

The remorse was shown as she was holding it in her room in the BOBW. Well before season 6.

It's in season 6 as a remembrance to her dad.

If she had no remorse, she wouldn't keep that doll, it's important to her.

Edited August 21, 2017 by GrailKing

[Blonde Gator]

For those of you who were absolutely amazed (as was I) at the technical aspect of the whole North of the Wall scenes, here's a great behind the scenes look:

(EDITED TO ADD.....Love "real" Tormund and Hound more than their characters!)

Edited August 21, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Heathrowe99]

I can believe Sansa is playing Littlefinger with Brienne-something is clearly up there, there's no reason for her to confide in him, and he was as slimy as ever. And clearly she has "a plan" with Brienne, though again I have no clue. I was hoping that Arya and Sansa were conspiring against Littlefinger  but nothing in their scenes tip to that-though I do like the theory upthread that Arya has a plan that Sansa doesn't know about yet. Otherwise, Arya really comes off like a total psychopath who's going to kill her own sister. Which would be a SHOCKING DEATH for this season, but I hope it's a red herring. Also, maybe Sansa has a plan (regarding Brienne) and their plans will come together.

Unpopular opinion, I felt kind of bad for that wight they brought back with them? I mean, it seemed like he was just out minding his own business and they pounced on him. The War of Northern Aggression!

Edited August 21, 2017 by Heathrowe99
forgot something

[WatchrTina]

8 minutes ago, Heathrowe99 said:

The War of Northern Aggression!

LOL -- The Wildlings (and their undead kin) think THEY are the northerners and Jon and his ilk are "Southrons" (which makes Jon crazy.)

[Heathrowe99]

@WatchrTina - Oh, that's true!  

[mac123x]

I've always wondered if the Night King's true goal was just to get the wildlings out of his territory.  He's really just an old man wearing black socks with sandals and his pants pulled up to his ribcage yelling "you kids get offa mah lawn!"

[KungFuBunny]

17 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Does anyone else think NK did not immediately kill Jon & co because he was waiting for the dragons???  We saw in episode 1 he had at least 2 wight giants that could easily cross the frozen/unfrozen lake to crush Jon & co.

Instead he was waiting with ice spears ready to shiskabob the dragons

Is it crazy for me to believe that the reason why the NK didn't kill Jon is because he recognizes him?

What if the human form of the current Night King used to be Rhaegar Targaryean? The NK in his form now always seems to be wearing armor and has a fascination with collecting little baby boys (Crastor)

[paramitch]

I thought this was a spectacular episode, as long as I turned my brain off for a lot of it.

Things I liked:

• I adore the dragons, so was devastated at the Night King's successful takedown of Viserion (nice symmetry there, since he was the one named for her weak and villainous brother). But yeah, I may have cried. Note: Many have posted images of Viserion as the green dragon, but that's not correct -- the green dragon is Rhaegal, named for Jon's father (so I fully expect to see Jon riding around on him any time now). Viserion was the cream-and-golden dragon. Here's his baby picture, below. (Sniffle.) Viserion's the gold one on the right.
• Some logistics don't bother me and I can handwave them: The chains are sort of believable, especially if (1) the Night King was using prescience and knew a dragon would make an appearance, and (2) if I accept that in defeating several keeps and Giants, that the WWs would have a nice collection of heavy chains ready for dragon-taming or dragon-hauling.
• As some have noted, Jon's team does in fact have and use dragonglass weapons in all of the WW fight scenes.
• I've really loved watching Dany actually fight from her dragons in the battles. It puts her money where her mouth is -- she's not standing back on the sidelines, she's a warrior princess now who's risking everything, including her own person. 
• Speaking of Dany, I think this season has by far been Emilia Clarke's best from a performance standpoint. I really bought her pain and loss at Viserion's death here, and I also was very moved by the final scene with Jon. And yeah: I ship it. Why not. They're both gorgeous and I am absolutely that shallow.
• I can buy that Uncle BenJen shows up because Bran sent him there, using the same prescience that told the NK that he'd need to be doing some dragon-hauling. But him not jumping on the horse I thought was pretty silly.
• Dany's coat was everything. Kudos to costume designer Michele Clapton. I loved the fact that it was striated, shaved fur, and the unexpected flowing "dragonscale" effect on the back was so gorgeous I literally paused just to look at it for a few more moments.
• I liked the early slog through that stunning landscape by Jon's party. We got to hear people actually talk like people for a change. And while I'm not really fond of Tormund's ogling of Brienne in some ways, I adore the character (and actor) and loved every moment of his scenes with the Hound.
• And I liked the Hound's many moments of both humor and fear. (Note: I didn't think he was stupid to throw the rock. He was trying to lure them forward again, which backfired.)

Things that bugged the crap out of me:

• I still think the whole "let's capture a wight and show it to Cersei" plot is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone on this show who has ever met or heard of Cersei knows by now that she will have no interest in any danger but the threat to her own throne. The idea that TYRION thinks she will be persuaded by this evidence is laughable. As others have pointed out, Cersei would instead be far more likely to see the wight and try to figure out how to use/replicate it -- or even to try to make a deal with the NK.
• The dragon rescue was spectacular. But it also spotlights the insane time issues involved in the action here, and for me also brought up a really basic question: Why didn't Dany just ferry them in on a dragon from the start?
• I hated the entire, badly written, series of scenes between Sansa and Arya and simply do not believe that Arya would say or do any of those things. And I know lots of people have quoted D&D from the "Behind the Episode" thing, but I hate those and shouldn't have to watch the writer explain the action for me to understand it. To me that's just another sign that it was awful writing. And as someone who cares for both Arya and Sansa, I resent and do not believe that they wouldn't trust each other after all they've been through. And yeah, it's gross on a subtextual level especially given all the other bromances this episode.
• For that same reason, Arya's whole creepy "I wonder what it would be like to be you and wear pretty dresses" had me eyerolling so hard they practically fell out of my head. Arya can have pretty dresses anytime she wants. She just has NEVER EVER wanted them! So the whole "envying pretty Sansa" thing just again strikes me as utter hogwash.
• And I don't know why Sansa's first answer to Arya about the ravengram wasn't, instantly, "Did you get this from Littlefinger?" Because come on. (Note: I will totally eat my words if they are, in fact, playing Littlefinger here.)
• Where was Bran? I mean, I get why he was absent -- if he'd been present for any of his sisters' scenes, for instance, hw could have instantly stopped their fighting with the information needed on both sides. But I wish we'd had even a shot of him sitting at the Weirwood tree and 'watching' Jon from afar.

I'm totally enjoying this season, I just find the writing and logic sometimes completely borked, and the characters inconsistently written. The super-streamlined nature of this season also means that I do too often feel that people are being shoved around so that they can be present where they need to be on the chessboard, regardless of whether it makes narrative sense for the characters themselves.

But I'll still never forget some of the gorgeous images from this one -- the dragon rescue, or poor Viserion's spectacular, terrible death, or Dany in that coat, watching for Jon (I loved that moment -- she looks like she's standing in a wintry crow's nest -- which she literally is!). 

[stillshimpy]

15 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I wonder if Benjen's blood has anything to do with why he didn't become a wight.

Oh wow, and we didn't actually see him die onscreen.  Every scifi and fantasy fan knows:  off-screen implied death means an open-ended conclusion.   I wonder if we'll see Benjen again, after all?  That would be better than his "There's no time!"  Dude, maybe the line should have been, "He can't carry us both fast enough, go!" or something that would have been less maddening to have as Jon's ONLY answer to Benjen's fate.   It's honestly a little frustrating in a show that ended its first season with the rallying cry of "Find Benjen Stark, or die trying." 

Most died trying and that's precisely why that was kind of a rip when it came to ending that story loop.   "I found Benjen..." "And?!?"  "When last seen he was facing down all things dead and almost certainly became a Wight to save me" while an honorable enough exit is also kind of a blank slate in terms of any level of emotional satisfaction for viewers.   

Edited August 21, 2017 by stillshimpy

[iMonrey]

Quote

She also now realizes that Jon knows what the fuck he's talking about. That he's survived two full scale battles against the NK and he wasn't exaggerating the threat.

I don't understand why everyone - including Jon - seems to assume the Wall will prove ineffective against the Night King and the White Walkers. I mean, that's the whole reason it was built in the first place, right? To keep them out of Westeros? It's more than just a very tall wall, it was built with some kind of magic that's supposed to keep the White Walkers at bay. So, why is everyone now just assuming the Wall won't be enough? 

Even if Jon et. al. manage to prove to everyone south of the Wall that the White Walkers are real, won't everyone just kind of shrug and assume the Wall will do its job?

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't understand why everyone - including Jon - seems to assume the Wall will prove ineffective against the Night King and the White Walkers. I mean, that's the whole reason it was built in the first place, right? To keep them out of Westeros? It's more than just a very tall wall, it was built with some kind of magic that's supposed to keep the White Walkers at bay. So, why is everyone now just assuming the Wall won't be enough? 

Even if Jon et. al. manage to prove to everyone south of the Wall that the White Walkers are real, won't everyone just kind of shrug and assume the Wall will do its job?

Yes and no.  The Wall has 16? castles, I think, and only 3 are manned.  So I'm pretty sure that one of Jon's points is that yeah, there's a Wall, but it's unmanned and will be breached if he doesn't get enough people to help him defend it.  Magic or no magic, it's supposed to be manned for a reason as well.  

[Amerilla]

6 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I think both Sansa & Brienne are relying on the fact that Jaime is there, and that Jaime will give Brienne a measure of safety from Cersei.  Which of course, is probably exactly wrong!  But as another poster said, they need characters A, B, & C to be in location X for Y scene......so contrived reason(s) to get them there.

 

Exactly. Brienne is a proven catalyst for Jaime, which is something Jaime really hasn't had all season. The plot anvil in the Cersei/Jaime's last conversation --"never betray me again" -- was very loud, and the list of people for whom Jaime might betray Cersei is pretty short. 

I know this isn't a unique perspective, but it was really in the last episode that I was distracted by the ham-fisted way they're lining things up for the end of the season. Jon and Dany have to be a thing, no matter how little chemistry Emilia and Kit appear to have. If the Night King is going to have an Ice Dragon, time and space be damned!

Jorah is my bae, so I'm happy he's greyscale-free and back in the story, but I'm also kind of baffled at how he's being used. Really, his reunion with Dany was one of the few genuinely emotional scenes this season, and certainly one of Emilia's great moments so far this year. (Her comfort level/chemistry with Iain really magnifies how constrained she often seems acting against Kit, but she's also had a lot more time working with Iain, so that's not surprising.) But instead of using him to bring some military insight to counter Tyrion's seeming missteps, they ship him off as part of the Magnificent 7's Project Frozen-Bonehead. I appreciate that he got to be in the fray, but it served little purpose. Bringing him back just to be visibly friendzoned AGAIN seems pointless. We know Jorah + Dany aren't going to be A Thing. Is he just window dressing until he finally dies for her? Couldn't they have just done that last season? 

I don't know that a normal, 10-episode run would have fixed any of this, but the short season is doing them no favors.

[locomoco]

18 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I want to know where the dead got those heavy chains from to lift Viserion from the icy waters.

They wear the chains they forged in life...  link by link, and yard by yard

[stillshimpy]

13 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I’m growing increasing nostalgic for the days when we were all eagerly awaiting a Stark reunion, because the reality has turned out to be disappointing across the board. Not “bittersweet” to use GRRM’s words, but sincerely terrible. Sansa lying to Jon, Rickon getting murdered, Bran losing his humanity, Sansa and Arya at each other’s throats, Jon and Benjen barely getting 10 seconds together. Enough! At this point I’m afraid that any Jon/Arya reunion will be too little too late. The damage has been done.

 

<snipped for length> I have a feeling that some of the more nonsensical plot points (the stupidity of the wight hunt, sending Brienne away) are more about moving some necessary chess pieces around for the ending sequences than about internal logic, but since the show has diverged so much from the planned books, they are coming off as increasingly awkward. For instance, maybe Viserion needs to become a wight and Brienne needs to meet up with Jaime again, and these are the inelegant solutions devised by the show. And as I said last week, I’m keeping my fingers crossed that getting the Hound back down to Kings Landing (AND the subtle mention of his burns this week and what a monster the Mountain was in the Riverlands in season 1) may also finally give us Cleganebowl. If it does, I will be very forgiving for a lot of other nonsense, provided that Sandor wins of course.

4

Once again, a thousand pardons for my posting style.  I lose all quotes whenever I switch pages, so I have to go one page at time in replying:   Yeah, about those Stark reunions sucking, it really feels like the showrunners have just gotten tangled up in both delivering what the audience would want to see, but doing it in some sort of Martinesque manner.  However, it's not.  It's very soap-opera with almost all tension relying on "if you'd sit down like human beings and discuss anything, or walk and talk because it's TV, I just don't care which..." miscommunication and needlessly withheld information.  

I'm genuinely a little resentful that they've put two characters in their ancestral home, after hideous trauma, death and horror on all sides, and they have some manufactured tension because they're attempting fan service.  Everything out of their mouths was a fan argument.  "I was a child" (eight million fan discussions have featured that for ages) , hey ho, sibling rivalry based in rejection of gender roles, that ends with Knifey, the world's most distinctive knife, playing a part yet again.  I swear, about half the time I think I got it right in the first season: Twas the knife all along.  

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

I really, really want a spin off-- Tormund and the Hound on the road discussing life, love, and... whatever.  Thoros would have made a great back seat (drunk) commentator but he's dead.

 

1

I admit I loved all of that.  Plus, I just feel happy whenever anyone says pig shit on this show.  Long story. 

9 hours ago, Francie said:

Ewwww!!!!! Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God!!!!!! My God!! My .... What the fuck???!!!!!! What the serious fuck!!!!! Is this real??? No, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God. Like, what IS that? Like that's a fake substance, right?!!! I mean, totally creepy, but at least ... Oh my God oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god. EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! [Repeat for 10 hours] 

 

Yeah, who the hell would get around to picking up the second face?  I get that she was married to Ramsey the People Flayer but good grief.   Particularly funny for a scene that featured a lot of talk about Sansa's inherent girliness, when she's over there with disembodied faces all "I think I'll look at another one..." 

8 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

You want to talk about nitpicks? Those chains were SLACK. How much does a waterlogged dinosaur weigh? They'd be taut, number one, and physically, the leverage that they'd require to haul the dragon up would very likely crack the rest of that ice sheet, making the whole idea even less probable. 

They should have just had the dragon come busting out of the water, have had all the fans gasp in delight, only for him to turn towards the camera, fix us all with a blue eye and let loose a stream of blue ice death right at the camera.  Roll credits.   Those chains were just kind of goofy, particularly since they've made such a damned point of Wights not being able to swim.  

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

The most maddening thing is that it's clear we're not supposed to think Jon is a shit ruler. They just make him stupid every time the plot demands and expect the audience to keep thinking of him as the hero.

 

1

Yeah, and for all the line-dropping they did (and I'll admit, I appreciated it all in that instance) for fanservice, they never really got around to covering what they thought they were doing.  Just our intrepid pack of snow lemmings, looking for death in all the cold places.   The problem with all of that is having to pretend that there was ever a way for the plan to work if it hadn't been for Dany.  They didn't need to get stranded on Gilligan's Ice Island for that to have ended with their dying like cold flies.  My husband kept saying incredulously, "Wait, what was the plan here?"  

They should have lost one moment of the swarming dead to have outlined that darned plan.  Like Jon saying, "We'll go to _______"  on Tormund's "We were seeing them, we were seeing the dead walking before the Night's King, we saw them _____ and there were only a few at the time, easy to outpace."  Something, anything other than it looking like Jon's idea of leadership was something other than "there are eight million of them and a baker's dozen of us, I'll take those odds!"  

[Growsonwalls]

One thing that's puzzling is Sansa and Arya argue over Ned and Jon all the time, but rarely bring up Catelyn. Their mother was an influential figure in their lives, for better or for worse. Was Catelyn so unpopular with the viewing public that once she was killed off they decided to never speak of her again?

[cryptaknight]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

 

And my thoughts on Viserion:

Mostly, I’m just heartbroken and Viserion’s death has hit me harder than any loss I’ve seen thus far. I don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion that losing Lady, Grey Wind, ShaggyDog, and Summer have always hit us harder than any other human death except, perhaps, those of Shireen and Hodor and as of last night, Benjen. But seeing him fall and hearing his screams and those of his brothers, powerless to help him, just killed me. So yes, I am crying over a CGI dragon and I will take a moment to give Viserion his due.  Named for Dany’s brother in the hopes he would be the dragon the crazy, evil Viserys wasn’t, he, like Rhaegal, seemed to always be in the shadow of Drogon, who is clearly Dany’s favorite. And this is not to doubt how much Dany loved him. Her grief is painfully obvious.  It just makes me sad to think of all those months he and Rhaegal were locked in a crypt when it was Drogon who killed that little girl. How both cried for the mother they believed had abandoned them and finally refused to eat they were so sad. How they are half Drogon’s size because of being left to languish, chained in the dark.

I think of how Viserion, along with Rhaegal, took to Tyrion, sensing a friend, and my heart breaks to think of him sidling up to Tyrion after Rhaegal was released as if to say, “Me, too! Me, too!”

 

And when the three of them were just babies (sniff!):

 

And when they were still small, notice Viserion right by Dany’s side and turning his head to look at her but, of course, Drogon gets all the petting and attention:

 

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m almost glad he’s been turned into a wight dragon so at least he’s not completely gone and maybe there’s some magic or trick up Bran’s sleeve to somehow turn him back again once the WW are defeated and so help me if Drogon and Rhaegal don’t get revenge and roast that motherfucking NK or Viserion, himself, kills him, I will burn shit down myself. I know that that line of thinking is foolish as it would be too much like a happy ending and I have a feeling the ending we’ll get with this show is bittersweet at best. I don’t even want to think about the possibility that Drogon and/or Rhaegal will have to take their own brother out. Because the heart wants what the heart wants and I want to see an alive, thriving Viserion flying high above King’s Landing with his two brothers with “cousin” Jon on the Iron Throne below.

I can’t even say RIP Viserion…damn…

Well, I wasn't too broken up over Viserion, but now I am! I was sad for the loss, of course, but this analysis is both spot on and heartbreaking. I hope Rhaegal gets the love and attention he deserves from Jon.

[stillshimpy]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Beric's voice. Give that man all the voiceover  work he can handle.

For real, the actor has to be classicly trained.  What a voice.  I kept wanting to hand him a skull or a leotard, or something.  He could order grilled cheese and fries at a broken down diner and it would still sound like a song.  Holy moly, the voice on that dude.  Even my husband noticed it.  "So, not to be crass, but he likely got laid just as much as he wanted in college."  I only questioned the "in college? Try forever."   I so seldom go on about anyone making me a little weak-kneed because it doesn't happen frequently, but Jeremy Irons is envious of that man's voice. 

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was assuming Arya would end up killing LF with it, but maybe it will turn out to be Sansa that kills LF.  Or maybe they can go all Agatha Christie and have all the Stark kids stab him.

I'm not sure what Knifey's ultimate purpose is but before being given back to Tyrion with a dry, "I found your knife" by whoever hands it to him right before the credits roll (that thing is a character unto itself) , it had better meet some slimy Petyr underbelly.  

[stillshimpy]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Ayra then threatens to tell the northern lords about the letter as Sansa blanches in reaction. Ayra ups the ante by asking her what Lady Mormont would have done when told to write the letter and I’m sure it would have been some version of telling everyone to go fuck themselves. And her head would have likely ended up on a spike next to Ned’s.

One (out of the many) frustrating things about Arya's brave stance is that for most of the series, she's actually had someone with her as a protector.  First it was Syrio, then it was Yoren, then it was Gendry, then it was Jaquen.   I understand that the point of the conversation is that Arya has become a person whittled down to one view of the world:  Seeking revenge but calling it justice.   It's her animating force.  It makes sense that she has narrowed her view down to something that paints her own actions in a tirelessly fearless way because she is so brave but she also benefited from Ned's worldview in a way that Sansa got equally ass-bitten by in her own turn. 

Arya encountered a lot of decent, trustworthy people while being brave as hell and fierce to boot.  Sansa was always without even one true ally.  I'm sure someone will now bring up Tryion but yeah, I can see why she didn't trust his intentions because of his last name.  Ned's teaching and words helped Arya or rather, they didn't hinder her much in this tale.  People who were in her life that urged her to trust them or stay with them, go with them, travel with them, were all largely trustworthy and honorable enough.   She just kept running into appalling and horrifying behavior and it did eventually change her.  It's not that one sister is right and the other wrong, it's that they don't seem to understand they've had a lot of the same experiences.   They were eventually changed and hardened by the reality of the world, but believing in the world of Ned helped Arya for much of her journey and was the very thing that bit Sansa in the ass so often.  

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

But we don't see him stoking her fears about murder on screen. We see him stoking her fears about Arya being a threat to Sansa in general. You seem to be willfully misunderstanding what they are saying for some reason.

+@VCRTracking

I'm trying to follow both of your arguments, but it's getting confusing: ( sorry a bit winded here )

This episode when we first see the girls overlooking the courtyard we all see: Arya talking about archery, and her father, she then puts blame on Lannisters with Sansa's help and her perceived betrayal. Sansa is pointing out the letter was under duress which is true, she wants to know what Arya intends to do with it; her worries beside making her look like a lackey, are the wind vane lords will use it as an excuse to leave and that letting out the letter will split house Stark apart ( Sansa mentions Cersei, but I'm sure all many agree she means LF also ) .

We next see Sansa asking LF where she (Arya) got the letter ( as she's closing all the doors )LF said she's a resourceful person he then goes and asked Sansa if she's worried and her basic answer is yes, it could mean Jon loosing his army because they are fickled whiners and less then honorable how far would anyone trust them. LF is trying to butter her up with how well she's doing, but she reminds him the armies are sworn to Jon. LF then says Arya's not like them, she won't betray her family,Sansa then replies, she would if she thought she was betraying Jon; she doesn't know any longer, she doesn't understand or know Arya anymore.

LF then brings up perhaps Lady Breieene could help she's sworn to protect both girls and Sansa agrees she is sworn to protect both ( LF has his smirk on ) and Sansa agrees that she would be honor bound to intercede. ( I already stated my interpretation on this and the next scene).

Sansa gets a scroll from KL, and we see her and Lady B converse, Sansa isn't going to KL for Cersei to hold hostage, but she need to know info so she sends Brienne who argues all good points on why she shouldn't go, but Sansa is adamant and Brienne relents.

At this point there is no fear of Arya doing her physical harm, just the fear of the letter getting out, and I think she senses LF wanting to put Lady B in the middle ( Vow and Vows which one )so Sansa sends her away and it's obvious they talked at length about Jamie, Cat and their vows  off screen. Lady B relaying her fears about LF and she being alone with him, Sansa's not budging and Lady B. relents, clearly worried herself about maybe breaking her vow ( not sure Sansa cuts her off ) we then see Sansa in her chair, with the same worried look she had just before her wedding. ( at this point I think she's more worried about LF and the soldiers than her sister). 

Last one - Sansa enters the room ( it seems unlocked ) she looks around for the scroll and finds the faces, ( I think Arya did this on purpose )Arya surprises Sansa ( the door is still closed )Arya is being menacing, threatening and creepier than hell, talks about GOF, Sansa doesn't play, Arya talks about taking her face so she can see what it feels like to be her, she's getting closer then just gives Sansa the dagger( Sansa is truly spooked here ) and leaves.

My thought here: Arya was testing Sansa, Sansa stood her ground, Arya determined Sansa was truthful but afraid, Arya giving the dagger meant trust me.

This is the only time I see her actually afraid with regards to her life, all that stuff with LF is him stoking fear that the men may leave and him trying to get Sansa to let Lady B stay and be a pawn for him.

[KaleyFirefly]

19 hours ago, Tippi said:

And hoping that ultimately Bran can warg into Viserion and use him to kill the Night's King.

Oooh, I like this idea!

[Misplaced]

15 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

And for the flip side, while Arya is jumping to conclusions about Sansa.  When Sansa finds a bag full of skinned faces in Arya's room, she at least asks Arya to explain, instead of running out of the room yelling that Arya is a crazed killer.  I think that's what I would have done.

That is, in fact, a really insightful comment - for real, I had not thought of that comparison.  Thanks for that.  

[Growsonwalls]

I also think it's interesting that among all the rulers in Westeros, Sansa is the only one ruling with some semblance of a democracy. Dany has done some wonderful things for people but she definitely believes in her divine right to rule. So does Cersei, and in a way, so does Jon. Sansa's methods resemble more of a parliament, with her hearing feedback and input even if she doesn't like it and making decisions that will make the majority of the Winterfell guys happy. I think Arya sees this as weakness. But in the real world, I think Sansa is the only leader that modern people would tolerate. 

[Couver]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

 

And my thoughts on Viserion:

Mostly, I’m just heartbroken and Viserion’s death has hit me harder than any loss I’ve seen thus far. I don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion that losing Lady, Grey Wind, ShaggyDog, and Summer have always hit us harder than any other human death except, perhaps, those of Shireen and Hodor and as of last night, Benjen. But seeing him fall and hearing his screams and those of his brothers, powerless to help him, just killed me. So yes, I am crying over a CGI dragon and I will take a moment to give Viserion his due.  Named for Dany’s brother in the hopes he would be the dragon the crazy, evil Viserys wasn’t, he, like Rhaegal, seemed to always be in the shadow of Drogon, who is clearly Dany’s favorite. And this is not to doubt how much Dany loved him. Her grief is painfully obvious.  It just makes me sad to think of all those months he and Rhaegal were locked in a crypt when it was Drogon who killed that little girl. How both cried for the mother they believed had abandoned them and finally refused to eat they were so sad. How they are half Drogon’s size because of being left to languish, chained in the dark.

I think of how Viserion, along with Rhaegal, took to Tyrion, sensing a friend, and my heart breaks to think of him sidling up to Tyrion after Rhaegal was released as if to say, “Me, too! Me, too!”

 

And when the three of them were just babies (sniff!):

 

And when they were still small, notice Viserion right by Dany’s side and turning his head to look at her but, of course, Drogon gets all the petting and attention:

 

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m almost glad he’s been turned into a wight dragon so at least he’s not completely gone and maybe there’s some magic or trick up Bran’s sleeve to somehow turn him back again once the WW are defeated and so help me if Drogon and Rhaegal don’t get revenge and roast that motherfucking NK or Viserion, himself, kills him, I will burn shit down myself. I know that that line of thinking is foolish as it would be too much like a happy ending and I have a feeling the ending we’ll get with this show is bittersweet at best. I don’t even want to think about the possibility that Drogon and/or Rhaegal will have to take their own brother out. Because the heart wants what the heart wants and I want to see an alive, thriving Viserion flying high above King’s Landing with his two brothers with “cousin” Jon on the Iron Throne below.

I can’t even say RIP Viserion…damn…

Gah your post made me all sad again. I had thought I had processed my feelings about his death but nope. And don't feel embarrassed I think a lot of us were attached to this CGI dragon. I've reacted the same way with the dire wolves. Particularly Greywind who also had a very heart wrenching death. 

I'm with you on hoping that there is some way to turn him back. I think that is a long shot and just a fans hope at this point. But what I would love is that he at least break free of the NK's thrall when he sees his mother. Perhaps helping his brothers take him down before finally finding peace. I'd honestly love to see Dany pass on taking the Iron Throne and just riding off into the sunset with her boys. 

[KaleyFirefly]

19 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Heh, it was not the lost of a dragon that upset me, it is the fact that Tyrion's stupid plan gave NK a dragon to ride.   NK could theoritically ride Veserys and crash the Cersei vs Dany meeting next week :P

What's to stop the Night King from just riding that dragon over the Wall, then opening the gates to let his army through? Or is there still magic that prevents him from crossing the Wall?

Edited August 21, 2017 by KaleyFirefly

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal, D&D aren't going to waste such an opportunity, especially as I think her mere presence will be enough for Jaime to break away from Cersei. She can talk some sense to him, and she is a reminder that he isn't utterly friendless and Cersei isn't his only ally.

I still think Oath Keeper and Widows Wail need to get back to House Stark.

Sansa doesn't seem to hold animosity towards him, but like many she doesn't know he pushed Bran out the tower. I don't think Bran will reveal it to anyone but Jamie himself, as Bran seems above mortal emotions.

[stillshimpy]

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Who was the second member of the Magnificent Seven Suicide Squad who died?  Thoros and they burned him, but then the one who fell off of the rock and was overcome by the wights - who was that?  I watched twice and missed it both times.

Does anyone actually know?  We stopped and rewound (eh, you know, went back even if there's no winding of anything in this the age of digital magic) and still couldn't figure out who the hell became The Lord of the Red Misty Gore there.  

I came here expecting to see a bunch of book readers with better memories saying, "Ah poor...some version of Martin's Westerosing up of a name, like Harlon Flynt or whatever..." and people talking about how he was better in the books.  

For real, is anyone even glancingly familiar with the dude who took the plunge and was immediately turned into a spray of cherry Jell-o on the White Cliffs of Death Things?  

Also, Iain Glen is quite possibly the most graceful man alive.   

ETA:   Wait, that's the real answer?   Chyrri Jyll-o was basically the dude's name?  Well, all right then.  Strange choice. 

Quote

He wasn't one of the Seven--there were a few wildlings that went with them. He was just a brave guy who saved Jon before making a false step.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing that's puzzling is Sansa and Arya argue over Ned and Jon all the time, but rarely bring up Catelyn. Their mother was an influential figure in their lives, for better or for worse. Was Catelyn so unpopular with the viewing public that once she was killed off they decided to never speak of her again?

I'm telling you, the writers have daddy issues. It's all the characters ever want to tak about. 

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Bran should be a bit more forthcoming with his information if he did send Benjen to Jon (which he probably did). When Sansa is telling LF how she hasn't heard from Jon in weeks, Bran should pull on her sleeve and be like "oh, btw...he's north of the Wall. Things are looking bleak."

He's just hoarding information at this point.

I'm so puzzled by what they're doing with Bran. They have him become the three-eyed raven and find out the biggest secret of the series ...only to never mention it to a single soul, or use his power to be helpful to anyone. He returned home so he could sit by a tree and be useless and mostly offscreen. 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Nmissi said:

On rewatch, I think we're all misinterpreting the sansa/arya scene. Arya starts by talking about how the rules aren't fair, and girls can't be who they want to be. She's making common ground with Sansa. But then she throws the letter in her sister's face, to put her off guard. Later, she catches Sansa searching her room, threatens her- then hands over her dagger. I think Arya is demonstrating that she's capable of protecting Sansa, she's showing her what she can do, how much she has learned. Then Littlefinger advises Sansa that brienne is her best protection and wouldn't let Arya harm her... so what does Sansa do? She sends Brienne away. I think she did that to PROTECT her sister- she's afraid Arya will come at her and Brienne may have to intervene- to prevent that, Brienne has to go.. 

Slightly off, LF scene is well before Arya's room scene I agree Arya's saying you can trust me, but Sansa's fear when with LF has to do with the note getting out and LF using Brienne  for his pawn.

Her fear of life with Arya is after sending Brienne away and won't be resolved until next week.

[WatchrTina]

I just watched the episode for the second time -- this time on my high-definition computer screen (which handles night/low-light scenes better than my TV) and wearing Bose noise-canceling headphones.  That was such a delicious sensory experience.  I literally jumped and gasped when the polar bear roared its attack -- and I KNEW it was coming.  (I also turned the volume down at that point.)  I loved hearing the ice cracking during the scenes at the lake.  I loved the the sails flapping and ropes creaking once they were back on the ship. And when they took Jon's coat off you could hear the ice coating cracking.  Wonderful.  

So here is one thing that I don't think people have talked about much  When John drags himself out of the lake the eyes on the pommel of his sword change color.  While he is underwater the eyes look white -- as if they are frozen . . . or dead.  But when John grabs the sword the eyes turn black -- as if the sword has come back to "life".  I backed up and watched it twice.  It has to be deliberate.  (Someone up-thread said they thought the eyes on the sword pommel turned blue like a wight but I don't think so.)  I have no idea what this means but it was clearly means something.  There is some kind of magic at work in that sword (and perhaps in all Valyrian steel swords) that is above and beyond its ability to kill White Walkers.  Cool.

The other thing that struck me is just how visually stunning this episode is.  Those dragons waking up and then jumping off the cliff to carry Dany north?  Amazing.  In fact, every scene involving the dragons is just over-the-top opulent.  Every scene of the hike (and Gendry's run) through frozen landscape beyond the wall is absurdly beautiful.  You really do just have to drink it in.  I'm as confused as everyone else with regard to whatever the hell is taking place at Winterfell so that part of the episode is a bit frustrating, but everything else about this episode in fabulous.

Okay, two small nitpicks.

1. When Jon is gazing at Dany they obviously didn't have a long enough take of Kit gazing adoringly at Emelia so they just froze the image for a few beats.  I noticed it on the first viewing and I noticed it again today.  It makes him look dead there for a few seconds.  (Did anyone else notice it?)
2. Jon calling Daenerys "Dany" really irritated me.  I call her that here because I can't spell her real name without looking it up and I'm lazy.  But it simply does not ring true in that scene.  The only justification I can come up with for them going there (besides "fan services" which is a bullshit reason) is that Dany admits to Jon that she is cannot have children, which is an intensely personal thing to tell someone so the writers wanted to strike a note of intimacy at the very start of the conversation.  Alternatively, they just loved the whole "No one's called me that in years . . . " "So what if I call you 'my queen'" exchange.  Eh, I guess I'll get over it -- that last one actually IS a pretty good reason.

Edited August 21, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Francie]

It's my second time through watching, and here are unquestionably the most important lines of the episode:

Tyrion:  You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you want to if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively, and beat them. 

Except that, while Tyrion is talking about the Lannisters there, this point will have to be applied to the White Walkers. 

[glowbug]

I really enjoyed the episode despite all of its flaws. Though a lot of the content was stupid, the pacing was good and I liked the action. I felt the tension during the wight hunt and liked all of the conversations not including Sansa or Arya. The sister rivalry continues to be incredibly stupid but the tone of it worked in the episode. If only their animosity (particularly Arya's) was earned, it would have complemented the rest of the episode nicely. I wasn't sure what Sansa's motivations was for sending Brienne away. Was she a) being intelligent and doing exactly the opposite of what Littlefinger wants and was telling her to do, or b) being a complete moron and falling for Littlefinger's trick to get Brienne and Arya out of the way (Sansa wanting to remove Brienne because she's afraid she'd protect Arya if Sansa tries to have her killed)? I don't know which one I'm hoping for. On the one hand, I'm rooting for Sansa to be competent and stay on the good side (which is what I hope for all the Starks) but on the other hand if the former is true, then Arya looks even more batshit crazy than she already looks, and Littlefinger once again fails to be the competent player he's supposed to be. I really despise the idea of Littlefinger being able to pull one over on either Stark sister and I agree with others that if the sisters actually talked about what they had gone through there would be no way either would be vulnerable to Littlefinger's manipulations. 

The wight hunt was a stupid idea made even worse by poor planning on everyone's part, but particularly Jon's since he was the leader. It also required a lot of stupidity on the part of the White Walkers/wights and luck on the part of Jon and co.. That said, I still enjoyed it. I'm not usually someone who likes battles but Game of Thrones has had a few entertaining ones (Hardhome being the best, IMO, with Field of Fire 2.0 being a close second) and this was one of them. There was seriously no reason any of Jon's party should have survived that hunt but I'm glad all but one of the named characters did, and it was awesome seeing the dragons roast all the wights...until Viseryon died. That was heartbreaking and I may have gotten a little choked up, though it doesn't carry the same weight for me that Lady and Summer's deaths did. I agree with @stillshimpy that Viseryon should have been reanimated under water and got himself out of the lake. It would have made more sense than the WW suddenly having chains to pull him out. 

I have to side with Dany when it comes the to succession talk with Tyrion. Why should she be worrying about that when she doesn't even have the throne? If she dies her side has lost (as Tyrion, himself, has pointed out) and there's no point to declaring an heir. Once she's queen she can appoint an heir or put in place a system of appointing one. They have much greater things to worry about now. I also agree with her when it comes to the Tarleys. I don't think that was a good example of her losing her temper. That was a calculated move and I think it was right move. She was more than fair by offering to let them save their lives and their titles by bending the knee. They refused so she executed them. She would have been justified in killing both of them without offering them a chance to save their lives after they betrayed one of her key allies. I think Dany can still break the wheel even if some people only serve her out of fear (which will be necessary because as the famous quote goes, “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time") so long as most follow her because they want to. 

I liked the scene between Jon and Dany at the end. It makes sense that Jon would finally bend the knee. He sees that he and Dany are dedicated to the same cause and she's willing to risk everything as he has to stop the White Walkers. On the romantic front, there was definitely chemistry between them (not the most mind-blowing chemistry ever but enough to make me see the potential in the couple) and the show is finally showing us Jon's attraction to Dany. While there has been little hints here and there (the cave stuff and his conversation with Davos), Kit hasn't been giving Dany the longing looks Tyrion accused him of. Dany, on the other hand, has been shown for many episodes that she is attracted to Jon so it's looked one-sided until this episode. I wish the two weren't so closely related but since the other popular alternative love interests for Jon (in the show—I know the books have Val) have been two women he grew up believing were his siblings (even though they're genetically less related), I'll take it. I do think the characters are well matched and complement each other. I wish there had been more of build up to their relationship but I feel that way about almost every aspect of this season and I've just decided to fill in the blanks myself. I'm just happy to be getting some sort of ending to this series because I doubt GRRM is going to give us one. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by glowbug

[MissLucas]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

It's my second time through watching, and here are unquestionably the most important lines of the episode:

Tyrion:  You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you want to if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively, and beat them. 

Except that, while Tyrion is talking about the Lannisters there, this point will have to be applied to the White Walkers. 

Well this is Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) 1.0. But if Tyrion wants Daenerys to listen he has to belt out "Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster" in Dothraki.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing that's puzzling is Sansa and Arya argue over Ned and Jon all the time, but rarely bring up Catelyn. Their mother was an influential figure in their lives, for better or for worse. Was Catelyn so unpopular with the viewing public that once she was killed off they decided to never speak of her again?

Pretty much.  LOL. Seriously, I have no idea, but she was unpopular, hated and despised by me.

[KungFuBunny]

17 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Which makes me wonder how he forged the deal with Crastor. 

I also wonder what the NK can see through his WW followers. If Jon & Co bring the captured WW through the wall and down to KL, will the NK be able to see what's going on?

Also does the NK retain the memories of all those he has turned?

[Growsonwalls]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Pretty much.  LOL. Seriously, I have no idea, but she was unpopular, hated and despised by me.

I hated Catelyn too. I hated book Catelyn even more than show Catelyn. But I just find it odd that Sansa and Arya would reunite and never even speak about the loss of their mother. It's as if Catelyn was someone the writers were happy to kill off and never speak of again.

[Francie]

I hated Book!Catelyn, but I love Michelle Fairley.  It was her scene with Jaime in season 2 that made me a fan of the show.  Catelyn made a lot of mistakes, but Michelle humanized her and made her heroine with flaws.  Because of her, Catelyn is now one of my favorite characters.  I think the lack of mention has to do with the four highest ranking writers being: male, male, male, and, oh yeah, male. Plus, I think Ned is being set up for being revealed for being not so honorable, after all. 

I'm midway through my second viewing and I've found reason No. 482 why I'd be dead in a day if living in Westeros.  Because if I had been Gendry and told to run back to Eastwatch, I'd run about half mile, and then I'd be all, "Wait, is this the way? Or was that? NONE of this looks familiar.  Okay, so maybe I should double back. Wait, did we go due North .... and where's the sun. Shit." And hours later, after crossing and re-crossing back... dead. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Francie

[stillshimpy]

22 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I have to side with Dany when it comes the to succession talk with Tyrion. Why should she be worrying about that when she doesn't even have the throne? If she dies her side has lost (as Tyrion, himself, has pointed out) and there's no point to declaring an heir. Once she's queen she can appoint an heir or put in place a system of appointing one. They have much greater things to worry about now.

This seemed more like stage-setting to me than anything else.  First, we have Tyrion trying to press for who will be her successor and it ends up making him seem strange, sketchy and possibly grasping when he's also urging her NOT to go and fight in the North.   Pretty much guaranteeing that everyone in the audience will be on the opposite side of Tyrion in that argument from jump, since literally millions of people were probably all, "Fuck no!! Fly, fly now!! You have not seen how doomed these poor fuckers are and they're, like, the only funny people in the entire fucking show other than Tyrion.  Hurry before one of those things eats Beric, or Jorah who practically gave a "today is a good day to die" type of speech by absolving Ned Stark of blame for "wanting my head" with "he was in the right, didn't stop me from hating him" (well, death was on the line, so...pardon granted on that emotional impulse) , giving Jon his ancestral sword saying he gave up all right to it (also true, but touching).  Time is of the essence.  Chop chop!"  

So there was that aspect.  Also, I think with the "they are the only children I will ever have, do you understand?"  Uh...yes, in this case, because you're talking to the person we're going to find out is your nephew -- here's hoping before you bone so that you can at least make an informed decision as opposed to finding out "Holy hell, that's an awfully close blood relative"  -- it's either so that people won't freak when you get down to funky town OR...given Tyrion's words...it was to set the stage for Dany naming Jon as her heir when she finds out.  Combine with Sam's stolen pile of birthright proving (although he breezed right past the "I'm sorry, but someone named Rhaegar was annulled and that's important enough to note at the Citadel...that's probably significant..." because also stage-setting).  

Don't anyone die of shock, as I don't like Tyrion after all that "Where do whores go?" raping and what not, but I actually felt freaking sorry for Tyrion/Peter Dinklage that he was given such a wince-inducing line that was there to establish, "Hey ho, we're aware, she has no heir...and yes, that is her blood relative...who may no longer have blood running in his veins...cause the chest wounds are still looking pretty unhealed and grievous"  .  There had to be a better moment to do that and wouldn't make Tyrion, whose advice has been of the fairly shitty variety on several occasions, look like he was more broken up about not knowing who to give her seat to, than the perceived necessity of knowing.  

Here's the thing with Jon being submerged and having Stark blood, which seemed to help Benjen survive beyond the wall, is that saved Jon from freezing to death?  They were chipping ice off the man but he didn't become whatever version of Wight that Stark's become (Benjen is simply undead as opposed to a Wight, it seems) because Jon has already shuffled off the mortal coil once?  Those wounds suggest that he's alive but got something different going on than most living things. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Francie]

Third realization on second watch through.  Tyrion isn't in love with Daenerys -- she's a mother replacement. And that's why he's terrified of her dying. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Francie

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

The remorse was shown as she was holding it in her room in the BOBW. Well before season 6.

It's in season 6 as a remembrance to her dad.

If she had no remorse, she wouldn't keep that doll, it's important to her.

Shown to us, the viewers. But not to others.

[YaddaYadda]

40 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I'm so puzzled by what they're doing with Bran. They have him become the three-eyed raven and find out the biggest secret of the series ...only to never mention it to a single soul, or use his power to be helpful to anyone. He returned home so he could sit by a tree and be useless and mostly offscreen. 

I get why Bran isn't telling that particular information to anyone. Jon should find out about it first. Plus, you know, Bran told Sansa all about her rape, and Arya all about her list, so Jon gets to have his turn in that particular grinder too. 

But the whole Bran story has been pretty bad the past two seasons. I'm all for exposition and I did enjoy the flashbacks, because damn it, I wanna know what happened at the ToJ (even though I 200% don't buy that Howland Reed stabbed Arthur Dayne in the back), and getting to see what happened to Hodor was just one of those show moments that was really well done, but Bran should be spending some time with his sisters too. And I get that he's present there with them because we always hear the ravens in the background, so he knows what's going on, but damn!

[WatchrTina]

Public service announcement:  There is a special mini-documentary on HBOGo on the making of this episode -- "Anatomy of a Scene: The Frozen Lake" --  that takes an in-depth look at that particular sequence.  (This is above and beyond the usual "Inside the Episode" doc that focuses on story.)

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Shown to us, the viewers. But not to others.

Why do you think such a private moment is to be shared with anyone but  herself ( viewers )?

I don't think that mean squat to Arya in her current state of mind, hell could be one more reason for her to be upset, "daddy got you something where's mine" .

Just remind Arya that she lost her wolf and a friend more fuel to her current inferno.

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Throw Jon in there too,can't send reply:

Going on negotiating mission, stop!

Tell Arya, I miss her Stop !

Tell Bran, I wished I was there when he arrived Stop !

P.S. Tell Arya we need every man, no taking heads; STOP!

I blame Davos for the lack of ravens.  Jon is occupied with fighting, brooding....  Davos could be sending out a raven instead of worrying if Jon would come back.

What am I saying? Obviously Davos was attaching the teleporter to the raven.

Serious what is Tyrion thinking?  Sansa knows better than to go that meeting.  She sees Cersei's trap.  How can Tyrion be so blind?  I know he trusts Jaime, but they both know that can't trust Cersei.

[TaurusRose]

16 minutes ago, Francie said:

I hated Book!Catelyn, but I love Michelle Fairley.  It was her scene with Jaime in season 2 that made me a fan of the show.  Catelyn made a lot of mistakes, but Michelle humanized her and made her heroine with flaws.  Because of her, Catelyn is now one of my favorite characters.  I think the lack of mention has to do with the four highest ranking writers being: male, male, male, and, oh yeah, male. Plus, I think Ned is being set up for being revealed for being not so honorable, after all. 

I'm midway through my second viewing and I've found reason No. 482 why I'd be dead in a day if living in Westeros.  Because if I had been Gendry and told to run back to Eastwatch, I'd run about half mile, and then I'd be all, "Wait, is this the way? Or was that? NONE of this looks familiar.  Okay, so maybe I should double back. Wait, did we go due North .... and where's the sun. Shit." And hours later, after crossing and re-crossing back... dead. 

I didn't like book!Catelyn at all, but it was Michelle Farley's portrayal of her that made me double down. She was cold, hateful and unyielding, and when it came to the attack on Bran, nowhere near as smart as she thought she was. Gendry impressed the hell out of me with that lung bursting run back to the wall. I would have fallen out for dead still in sight of the heroes.

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Arya finds the scroll, confronts Sansa about it. At any point, if Sansa just says "Look, I know what this looks like, but you have to understand my circumstances, blah blah blah...oh just one question before I go on...was this scroll in ANY way connected with Littlefinger? Maybe he didn't give it to you directly, but was the whiff of Littlefinger, the most notorious schemer in the entire kingdom, anywhere NEAR this transaction, in any way?"

Ummm Sansa - I was forced to do it, I was a child, I was told it was the only way to save father.......

Arya- And you foolishly believed them, I would have died instead of betraying my family.

Sansa could have bitched slapped her tied her down have Bran give the vision and Arya still wouldn't believed it.

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

They were absolutely massive and took hundreds of wights to carry them. None were ever seen hauling them around before the battle. And how did they get them attached to the dragon to pull him out? Hundreds swam down there? It appears that they can't swim. Plot hole!

Obviously I'm dwelling on this as sarcasm, but seriously, it made no sense. 

But they show them falling in the water, then come out and take people with them, so I think they can swim, and WW and fresh water might not be a problem but what about sea water, is there a book tie in to dead things in the water?

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, that one guy said:

I actually know the answer to this! At the Battle of Castle Black, Mag the Mighty, last King of the Giants, had giant chains. He tried to chain his mammoth to the Black Gate and rip it off so Mance's army could get through. The Giants are all dead now, and the White Walkers have all their stuff. Maybe the NK is a Greyjoy not a Stark, the Walkers do not sow.

What is dead may never die?

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I didn't like book!Catelyn at all, but it was Michelle Farley's portrayal of her that made me double down. She was cold, hateful and unyielding, and when it came to the attack on Bran, nowhere near as smart as she thought she was. Gendry impressed the hell out of me with that lung bursting run back to the wall. I would have fallen out for dead still in sight of the heroes.

Same. And the more the show tried to soften her up by giving her a scene about Jon almost dying of the pox, the more I looked forward to the Red Wedding. Which I ended up not watching because I didn't wanna see Robb and a bunch of characters I cared about be taken down like that. Reading it in the books was enough. 

[Francie]

I think I'm a little less sentimental than most here about Viserion (though those baby pictures would melt the heart of a White Walker).  

But am I the only one who thought of this and re-worked it in their head as:

"The dragon has three ... three heads .... Oy!  Two ... The dragon has two heads."  

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Has anyone else noticed that the eyes of the wolf's head on Longclaw changed to blue when Jon emerged from the water and grabbed it? 

So they can control Jon via Long claw?

 JKNG.