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S01.E08: Part VIII

Drogo

By Drogo
in The Sinner

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Neurochick

Neurochick

(edited)
On September 20, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Iguessnot said:

The look of surrender that Frankie supposedly had, is understandable.

Did the parents just assume that Phoebe was dead because Cora was found drug addicted and without any memory? Did they not even try to find out what happened to Phoebe?

I just finished the book; and I guess I can say this because it's no longer a spoiler but the parents thought that Cora had something to do with Phoebe's/Magdalena's (in the book) death.   In the book Cora resented her sister and when they realized both of them were gone, the father didn't want to call the police because he believed that Cora killed her sister.

The resolution was sort of what happened in the book, though I liked the show better because the book was one big old "shrug."  Nobody was punished for anything in the book, really.  Actually, what happened to Cora was worse in the book, because she was kept prisoner for six months; no one wore a mask though; and the parents didn't bury Phoebe, Frankie's other two friends did.  In the book, Frankie didn't call his father either, his mother called (it wasn't a club, it was a country house that belonged to Frankie's grandmother), and Cora never knew what happened to her sister; and the doctor told her a whole bunch of lies, that he found her naked on the side of the road and she had all these vaginal wounds and he convinced her she was a junkie.  Yeah, what they did to Cora was worse in the book.  But no one really went to jail for anything in the book, mainly because no one ever confessed to anything.

In the book, it was hard for the detective to find out anything because everybody was lying.  Cora's parents, Cora's aunt, Margaret (more prominent in the book than in the series).  See, everybody assumed that Cora killed Phoebe and was covering for her.  Also in the book, Phoebe's body was dumped, not buried; and when it was discovered, Margaret and her boyfriend, (who was a doctor) found the body of a junkie and convinced the parents that it was Phoebe and had the body cremated.  The horrible thing in the book was that Cora always thought that she was a junkie who killed her sister; oh and in the book, her husband leaves her and takes their son, the end.

Edited by Neurochick
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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

At least they gave it a legit ending and it likely done.  Unless they find some bizarre way to make another season, but I'm not sure how that will turn out without being really silly (Cora gets out of the mental hospital and shit gets crazy again!)

So, basically, the majority of the blame goes to J.D. and Frankie's parents.  Frankie called his dad after he killed Phoebe, and his dad decided they were going to cover it up and it was he and J.D. that buried Phoebe, but he couldn't bring himself to kill Cora in cold blood.  So he brought her back to the house (with that snazzy wallpaper!), and nursed her back to health, but then was blackmailed by J.D. or something?  And he was the one that made her "forget" everything and think she was a junkie?  Some of that was confusing, but it is fitting that the parents basically caused Frankie's death when they were trying to protect him.  Had they just gone to the police, it would have been different.  Sure, Frankie might have served some jail time, but at least he'd still be with him.

I suspect it is unrealistic that Cora would get her sentence reduced, but whatever.

All and all, this was hit or miss, with too much padding and almost all the supporting cast was as thin as that fancy wallpaper.  Still, it was fun seeing both Jessica Biel and Bill Pullman again.  And Jacob Pitts.  Can't wait to see him pop up somewhere else, but he really deserves to be a regular on some show again.  Justified for life! 

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HollyG

HollyG

(edited)
On 9/21/2017 at 2:43 PM, Shellbell59 said:

I thought Cora had always told ppl that her parents were dead..even at the rehab facility.

So the parents had always assumed the girls had gone to Florida. When Cora murdered Frankie and made the headlines (5 years later) was when they found out she was local...and it was unlikely Phoebe would still be alive regardless. 

One would think they'd at least want to know..and ask about Phoebe whe Ambrose visited and not say she'd died a month or two later. Unless the weird mom wouldn't admit to that Phoebe actually wanted to get away as well...

No, a few months after Cora went missing, the parents learned that the girls didn't go to Florida from the Aunt. The Aunt told Ambrose that they learned that Cora was in rehab and she spoke to her parents about Cora coming home when she got out. The parents refused to take her back because they thought she ran off and became an addict. So Cora moved in with the aunt and never saw her parents again. But they knew she was still in the area. 

There is never any mention if the parents or the aunt ever asked Cora where Phoebe was or what happened to her. I guess we're just supposed to think that all they believed her to be dead. But this is very out of character for the parents to just let it go, esp. the mother. To me this was a huge plot hole.

Edited by HollyG
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Neurochick

Neurochick

13 hours ago, HollyG said:

There is never any mention if the parents or the aunt ever asked Cora where Phoebe was or what happened to her. I guess we're just supposed to think that all they believed her to be dead. But this is very out of character for the parents to just let it go, esp. the mother. To me this was a huge plot hole.

That's a HUGE hole in the movie.  In the book it made more sense because the aunt, Margaret and Cora's father really believed that Cora had done away with her sister.  The aunt and her doctor boyfriend stole the body of a homeless junkie, told the parents it was Phoebe and they just believed that Phoebe was dead and Cora was to blame.  So you can get why the mother didn't press it, she was told Phoebe was dead and she believed it.  

The movie was confusing because Cora knew that she was held prisoner, the masked man, etc.  In the book she never knew what happened to Phoebe and she didn't realize she was held prisoner because Frankie's father told her he'd found her naked, on the side of the road and didn't take her to a hospital because he'd been drinking and he thought he hit her.  That was the story he spun and Cora basically believed it.  She never saw Phoebe buried, she didn't know anything after being hit on the head.

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HollyG

HollyG

(edited)
8 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That's a HUGE hole in the movie.  In the book it made more sense because the aunt, Margaret and Cora's father really believed that Cora had done away with her sister.  The aunt and her doctor boyfriend stole the body of a homeless junkie, told the parents it was Phoebe and they just believed that Phoebe was dead and Cora was to blame.  So you can get why the mother didn't press it, she was told Phoebe was dead and she believed it.  

The movie was confusing because Cora knew that she was held prisoner, the masked man, etc.  In the book she never knew what happened to Phoebe and she didn't realize she was held prisoner because Frankie's father told her he'd found her naked, on the side of the road and didn't take her to a hospital because he'd been drinking and he thought he hit her.  That was the story he spun and Cora basically believed it.  She never saw Phoebe buried, she didn't know anything after being hit on the head.

Thank you Neurochick! This makes so much more sense. They should have at least included the part about the aunt & doctor. Although providing a dead homeless woman as proof that Phoebe was dead??... that's a little crazy too. But at least that would have filled in the blanks about why the parents didn't look for the girls. Again, many thanks.

Edited by HollyG
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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

(edited)

I think I might read the book anyway. I like breaking up my nonfiction books with "lighter" stuff; left to my own devices, I'll just reread a favorite Stephen King anyway, regardless of how many unread ones on the "to be read" pile (unrelated, but so great: do you know you can read a Kindle book on a computer if you want? So great for the few slow days I get at work--no one knows I am reading for leisure because I'm still chained to sitting at my desk, looking at a monitor!).

Edited by TattleTeeny
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Brookside

Brookside

(edited)

Watched the first couple of episodes then gave up on this crapfest.  Turned on the TV just now and it happened to be on the last 30 minutes of the last episode, so half-watched while reading this board.  That was more than enough, but now I can forget everything except to never believe the hype from USA previews.

For those who would like to watch a great mystery (and get this dreck out of their brains), full of beautiful scenery, humor, and rabbit-holes,  check out the BBC mini series Broadchurch, with the incomparable David Tennant and Olivia Colman.

Edited by Brookside
Because now isn't the same as not
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diebartdie

diebartdie

On 9/22/2017 at 9:08 PM, thuganomics85 said:

At least they gave it a legit ending and it likely done.  Unless they find some bizarre way to make another season, but I'm not sure how that will turn out without being really silly (Cora gets out of the mental hospital and shit gets crazy again!)

 

I read that it is meant to be an anthology series so different characters and story lines each season.

Irlandesa

Irlandesa

39 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

I read that it is meant to be an anthology series so different characters and story lines each season.

In the post-season interviews, it doesn't sound like they know for sure.  It does sound like Cora's story is likely finished and that an anthology with all different characters is a possibility.  But it's also possible that Ambrose could be a part of the new series and it'd be semi-continuous.

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grommit2

grommit2

Whew!  OK.  Season ended.  Case solved.
Spoiler alert:  I was really surprised that Darth Vader is Luke's father!  Wow...never saw that coming.  What, wait.  Wrong story. oops.

Anyway,  I still do not understand what all the kinky Bill Pullman sex was supposed to represent.  
Can someone please educate me on this bit of the story line?

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MarylandGirl

MarylandGirl

3 hours ago, Seattleredhead said:

Question going back to the beginning of the series: the way she stabbed Frankie and the way she hit the detective seemed like really important plot points. Was that ever followed up on?  Did those mean something?

Thanks for everyone who chimed in about the parents and Pheobe. I was so confused. 

I thought that was how she initially hit Frankie after she saw Phoebe was unconscious? So like it was almost a PTSD or muscle memory thing when she attacked him at the beach (and Bill Pullman). But maybe I'm wrong...

SoSueMe

SoSueMe

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I missed the finale and swung by here to catch up before I check it out.  Should I bother?  I had read about the ending, but, after reading what you guys have posted, it looks like maybe, what I had read about the ending was wrong.  

Meh

If you've already invested 7 hours, you may want to ride it out just for snark value. But if you've only got limited time it's your call how you spend it :)

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grommit2

grommit2

(edited)
On 10/1/2017 at 9:55 PM, SoSueMe said:

Meh

If you've already invested 7 hours, you may want to ride it out just for snark value. But if you've only got limited time it's your call how you spend it :)

Yes, it is worth watching just to be complete.  But, beware, this is a dark, dark episode.  

Edited by grommit2
wrong reference...oops!
topanga

topanga

On 9/27/2017 at 2:03 PM, grommit2 said:

Anyway,  I still do not understand what all the kinky Bill Pullman sex was supposed to represent.  
Can someone please educate me on this bit of the story line?

Me too., please. I've always loved BP as an actor, but this disturbing part of the storyline almost ruined my happy memories of him in While You Were Sleeping and Independence Day. 

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Guest

Guest

A podcaster I listen to raved about this so I paid $20 for it on Amazon.  Hm.  It was ok, but I didn't love it.  

My gripes with the story were the mom claiming Phoebe died two months after Cora disappeared, and no one checking that, or even asking her why she lied.  And if Cora had had the memories of the night effectively erased, why didn't she ever check on Phoebe at her parents' in all those years?  

Plus there was really no reason for all the "Cora's been molested" stuff-- her freaking out in bed with her husband, etc.  She was never molested, unless you count being 'shared' with JD's drug customer that night, which she appeared to agree to.  Even her attacking Frankie to 'save' the girlfriend from the simulated sex wasn't really justified because Frankie didn't kill Phoebe, really, and if Cora remembered the night at all I think she'd remember that important detail.  It was just a consequence of the circumstances they all contributed to.  Cora, as much as anyone.  She was the only one who knew just how sick Phoebe was, but she let her do all those dangerous things.

I'm tired of these mysteries taking some accidental death and weaving an 8-20 episode season around 'who's the murderer'.  Just because the idiots there for the accidental death decided to cover it up, doesn't make it a murder.  So we spend a season looking for a true murderer with motive and then at the end, "Surprise!  It was just an accident!  The people involved acted like no one ever would in real life but we'll just hand wave that!"  How To Get Away With Murder (season one, all I watched) springs to mind.  Bloodline, too.  

This made me miss The Killing and Top of The Lake, not that those were perfect.  

Pondlass1

Pondlass1

The story could have been told in 3 (maybe 2) hour long episodes. The first episode had the killing on the beach, the final episode tied it all up.  All the rest was filler.  The detective's story was boring and pointless.  They should've just stuck to the main story.  

Why did they spend so many scenes emphasizing the mother being so protective of the sick daughter - and then have her not even bothered when sick daughter goes missing. 

It seemed a very nice prison that Cora stayed in.  Not like the crowded dangerous places I see on the real life inside prisons reality shows.

Can anyone suggest anything better?  

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Paloma

Paloma

I'm glad the ending addressed most of the questions but agree with everyone about it being hard to believe the parents would not raise the alarm about the missing daughters and especially Phoebe not coming back when Cora did. I understand the mother not caring about Cora being gone, but after devoting her whole life to Phoebe (even though I still wonder if the mother had MPD and was the one who made and/or kept her sick) and after seeing Cora come back without Phoebe, questions should have been asked. I guess we are supposed to believe that the mother stopped caring about Phoebe because she (the mother) heard the girls talking about running away and considered this a betrayal. But the father was not crazy like the mother and should have had some concern about what happened to his daughters. I also agree with this:

On 1/22/2018 at 10:31 AM, Guest said:

And if Cora had had the memories of the night effectively erased, why didn't she ever check on Phoebe at her parents' in all those years?  

Another thing that was hard to believe was that Maddie turned up fine and with a baby. In the final recovered memories of the night at the bar (which I think we are supposed to trust as true), Maddie was in the bathroom trying to tell Cora that JD is a bad guy, with a story about him getting a girl pregnant, wanting to name the baby Winter, and after rejected by JD the girl walks into traffic and ends up injured and losing the pregnancy--this is presumably the basis of the story Cora originally told Ambrose, when she said she got pregnant and walked into traffic, got seriously injured, and lost the pregnancy. When Maddie tells this story to Cora, it's not clear if she is talking about herself or someone else, but later in the sex and drugs scene in the basement when Maddie comes in and JD tells her to leave, JD says that getting pregnant and walking into traffic did not make her matter (or make her special--I don't remember the wording). So clearly the story Maddie told Cora was about her, which results in the question: Where did baby Winter come from? Did Maddie get pregnant again after she got out from under JD's influence? The timeline is confusing, especially since we thought we saw Maddie outside JD's house when Cora's husband went there the first time (though that could have been a red herring and really it was some other blonde).

Smaller but still annoying questions: Who was the guy with bushy hair wearing the mask at the club, and why did Frankie's father have the same mask when he was keeping Cora in his house? This was the same mask seen in the basement of the club when Ambrose went there and when he took Cora there the first time. How did it get from the bushy hair guy to Frankie's father, and how did it end up back in the basement? 

Frankie didn't deserve to die, but I don't have much sympathy for his parents and hope they get severe punishment. The father was about to kill Cora with the shovel after he put Phoebe in the burial spot--I guess he deserves a smidge of credit for pulling back at the last moment, but the ordeal he put Cora through was horrendous. And his wife's reaction was "get this bloody girl out of here" rather than any concern for her welfare. I'm a mom of an adult daughter and understand the instinct to do anything to protect them, but these types of crimes go far beyond what any normal parent would do (I hope).

I don't think I will watch Season 2 unless it gets great reviews. Even if it does, I won't watch if Detective Ambrose and his masochistic sex life are a plot point.  

seacliffsal

seacliffsal

I just finished binging this season and, like others, have more unanswered questions that shall remain perplexing.  However, I have an issue with the casting of Cora.  Cora was 23 when she went missing (2012) and as this was set in 2017 she would have been 28.  Jessica Biel is a beautiful woman but I feel she was too old for this role.  No way did I buy her as an innocent woman who did not have any agency or understanding of many of the issues she faced.  When paired with the actress who played her younger sister, Cora looked more like her mother than a sister who was just 4 years older (Phoebe very clearly had just turned 19).  I couldn't buy Cora giving in to Phoebe nor her letting Phoebe take the drugs due to how much older than 23 she seemed to be.

In a way, I do believe Cora contributed to Phoebe's death in that she took her to the bar, let her get high, and then took her to the club and going off with JD instead of staying with Phoebe (drug interactions alone could have been disastrous).  Not that she's responsible, but I don't see her as innocent in the events leading up to Phoebe's death.  

Frankie was not deserving of the execution enacted by Cora.  He was trying to save Phoebe and Phoebe had consented to sex with him (so, not forced).  

I just fast-forwarded all of Ambrose's sex scenes (don't care and, like others, don't care about his kinks, etc.).

So, overall, Columbo would have wrapped up this homicide in one episode...

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