S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Wouter]

15 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I got the distinct impression that Sansa is one of the "things" Cersei informed Tycho Nestoris (Braaviosi banker) that she "wanted to get back-ah". 

Very possible. Cersei would definitely want all the territory (the north, the Vale, Dorne etc.) of the various rebels, but she may also want Sansa (and Tyrion, maybe Varys and Littlefinger) specifically.

15 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Same name,same MO-Myranda is in love with the guy Sansa's to marry, and in both mediums Sansa /Alaynne is aware.

All she needs is 1 or 2 good men to go North.

Good point on the similarities. There are, however, also differences: Myranda Royce is quite warm to "Alayne" and may be a good (subtle) manipulator, not unlike "Alayne" herself and unlike sadistic and unsubtle show-Myranda. Still, I doubt D&D picked this name by coincidence. If TWOW ever comes out (within the next 10 years or so), we may see what happens.

I'm more and more starting to think that Cersei will get her hands on Sansa (but with Sansa somehow surviving this - unlikely, but then book-Jaime apparently is going to unlikely survive his meeting with Stoneheart). Tidbits like Jaime learning that not Sansa and Tyrion, but the Tyrells poisoned Joffrey go right up that alley (that final reason for Jaime to turn on Cersei - be the Valonqar at last?). If so, Sansa may yet be that younger queen, taking even Jaime from her along with the last vestiges of her power, and probably her life.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Wouter

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

also differences: Myranda Royce is quite warm to "Alayne" and may be a good (subtle) manipulator, not unlike "Alayne" herself and unlike sadistic and unsubtle show-Myranda. Still, I doubt D&D picked this name by coincidence

Yeah she knows who Alayne is.

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Good point on the similarities. There are, however, also differences: Myranda Royce is quite warm to "Alayne" and may be a good (subtle) manipulator, not unlike "Alayne" herself and unlike sadistic and unsubtle show-Myranda. Still, I doubt D&D picked this name by coincidence. If TWOW ever comes out (within the next 10 years or so), we may see what happens.

Warm because she's on a fishing expedition (I also haven't read the Sansa sample chapter). I think she "likes" her because she's a means to and end. 

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

One thing I've noted this season is the parallels between Dany and Cersei. Both claim a right to rule. Both look to obliterate the other. Someone in another thread posted that Dany really has no choice but go big (conquer Westeros) or go home (die).  While I personally think that had Dany stayed in Essos at this point, nothing would have been done given what little consideration Cersei had of her*, this ‘go big or go home’ sentiment can be applied to Cersei. It’s conquer all her enemies or die.  Both have used WMD, one in the form of wildfire, the other dragons.  Both have a Lannister brother trying to temper their actions.  Both are even dressed in black.

I mildly disagree with Jon. Chaos is chaos. Destruction is destruction. A family wiped out by starvation or a mother who just had her son incinerated to ashes is not going to care whether the perpetrator was well-meaning or not or whether they had a "greater good" in mind. 

*And certainly those circumstances could've changed should Cersei have gained control and stabilized Westeros and decided to turn her attention to Dany.  

It's also interesting that for Dany Cersei Lannister Barratheon is the living descendant of those who toppled her family and drove her need to reclaim the throne in the first place.  For Cersei Dany is the immediate threat to her reign, and likely the living embodiment of the prophecy of the young queen come to throw her down. 

Will it twist further with the revelation that a Targaryen is responsible for the single event which shaped Cersei's personality and heart to become a woman on a mission to never answer to the authority of another ever again? 

[ursula]

I used to feel sorry for Cersei until she stepped over her son's dead body to sit on the Iron Throne. I used to feel sorry for Jaime because I felt that he was the unsung hero who killed Aerys for the greater good, until he stood by his sister who did what he killed Aerys to prevent. Right now, in my opinion, the Lannister Twins are the unmitigated Bad Guys in this story. 

[Tikichick]

32 minutes ago, ursula said:

I used to feel sorry for Cersei until she stepped over her son's dead body to sit on the Iron Throne. I used to feel sorry for Jaime because I felt that he was the unsung hero who killed Aerys for the greater good, until he stood by his sister who did what he killed Aerys to prevent. Right now, in my opinion, the Lannister Twins are the unmitigated Bad Guys in this story. 

Cersei's no doubt done some hideously, awful, unforgivable things.  She's also suffered pretty awfully in some ways.  It's not an excuse, simply a sharper lens to look through when observing her.

I despise what she's done.  I don't want her on the throne.  I understand what drives her compulsion to be in a position where no one can tell her no.

I feel for the wounded little girl who lost her mom and was dwelling on her decaying body with no one but her twin to try to soothe her.  I feel for the young girl/woman who was being proffered on a silver platter for her father's gain. I worry for the young girl who had initially understandable hatred for her youngest brother, and yet received no contrary input from her surviving parent about that.   I feel for the young bride who might have tried to make a go of it with her husband, only to be faced with his undeniable obsession with his lost love -- and his cruelty at his living wife.  I feel for the mother who felt so sharply pained by the loss of her daughter

I'm honestly not sure if the loss of her sons pained her or not.  Given the way she spoke about losing her daughter and nursing her as a baby, with no mention of her sons I doubt it.  Joffrey's cruel nature makes me doubt she was bonded with or mourned him.  Tommen's willingness to subjugate himself, and therefore Cersei, to other people's authority and control makes me think she had decided he either had to be sharply reigned in or go.  Either way, she was not going to have a boss. 

Overall, no, I don't like Cersei much.  I can see missed potential in her, which makes her also a tragic figure to me.  One of my biggest bad guys in the story is Robert Barratheon, so far for me even moreso than the Lannister twins.

I'd also have to add Tywin Lannister on the bad guy listing above his twin children.  On screen Tywin was slightly redeemed, and potentially a bit more indicted in regards to how he mistreated his daughter, because of the Arya storyline.   Then of course the actor simply gave such a magic performance it made Tywin a character you enjoyed to see more of.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tikichick
Forgotten bad guy nom

[Francie]

Cersei's reaction to Tommen's death struck me as a defeated sadness and resignation as opposed to the angry sort of loss she felt with Joffrey and more emotion response to Myrcella.  I guess I've seen others go numb and dead inside in reaction to tragic news.  For her, too, not only had the prophecy been fulfilled, this was the last shred of what she was fighting for.  

[Pogojoco]

18 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't know, if King's Landing comes under seige (which seems somewhat likely), it could become a factor.

I just don't think they take that much time talking about it if it doesn't mean something. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Pogojoco

[iMonrey]

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Neither one should rule IMO.  I do have to agree with Jon's assessment, Dany is better than Cersei in that she has some concern that her people are well.  I don't think she has the abilities to back it up, but at least she has a spark of empathy.

The issue for me (within the context of who "deserves" to rule) is that while Dany does in fact have a hereditary claim on the throne, Cersei has none. Zero. Robert Baratheon was essentially Henry Tudor. He conquered "The Mad King" Aerys (Richard III). Once Henry Tudor won the throne by right of conquest, there were plenty of Plantagenet claimants who could rightfully call him a usurper (just as Robert was called) and say they had a stronger claim to the throne by right of birth. If there were other Baratheons, I'd say they had a stronger claim because House Baratheon overthrew House Targaryen. 

But Cersei has no such claim - there is no precedent in Westeros or in the medieval England it's based on where the dowager queen of a dead king has any claim to the throne. Zilch. 

Cersei seems to have simply seized the crown by right of . . .  just being there and being able to defend it. I guess "right of conquest" is the closest you can come to her "right" to the Iron Throne but that wasn't even a conquest (inasmuch as she's not admitting to blowing up the Sept) so much as a seizing. 

So while my modern sensibilities tell me the seven kingdoms are better off as a democracy, if I had to choose who "deserved" the Iron Throne based on the rights of these fictional people, I'd say Dany has the stronger claim by far.

[MadMouse]

I'd also like to point out that Cersei murdered her "friend" Melara Hetherspoon an eleven year old girl, so she's been pretty much a psycho since she was a preteen.

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Cersei's no doubt done some hideously, awful, unforgivable things.  She's also suffered pretty awfully in some ways.  It's not an excuse, simply a sharper lens to look through when observing her.

I despise what she's done.  I don't want her on the throne.  I understand what drives her compulsion to be in a position where no one can tell her no.

I feel for the wounded little girl who lost her mom and was dwelling on her decaying body with no one but her twin to try to soothe her.  I feel for the young girl/woman who was being proffered on a silver platter for her father's gain. I worry for the young girl who had initially understandable hatred for her youngest brother, and yet received no contrary input from her surviving parent about that.   I feel for the young bride who might have tried to make a go of it with her husband, only to be faced with his undeniable obsession with his lost love -- and his cruelty at his living wife.  I feel for the mother who felt so sharply pained by the loss of her daughter

I'm honestly not sure if the loss of her sons pained her or not.  Given the way she spoke about losing her daughter and nursing her as a baby, with no mention of her sons I doubt it.  Joffrey's cruel nature makes me doubt she was bonded with or mourned him.  Tommen's willingness to subjugate himself, and therefore Cersei, to other people's authority and control makes me think she had decided he either had to be sharply reigned in or go.  Either way, she was not going to have a boss. 

Overall, no, I don't like Cersei much.  I can see missed potential in her, which makes her also a tragic figure to me.  One of my biggest bad guys in the story is Robert Barratheon, so far for me even moreso than the Lannister twins.

I'd also have to add Tywin Lannister on the bad guy listing above his twin children.  On screen Tywin was slightly redeemed, and potentially a bit more indicted in regards to how he mistreated his daughter, because of the Arya storyline.   Then of course the actor simply gave such a magic performance it made Tywin a character you enjoyed to see more of.

 

I hate Cersei too and if I had to choose between her and Dany "White Man's Burden" Stormborn, I would grudgingly pick Dany, but Cersei in her own, selfish way did love her kids,I think that Joffrey might have been her favorite and she absolutely did mourn Joffrey as much as she mourned Marcella. She was clearly heartbroken when Joffrey died in her arms, shell shocked when Tywin started bad mouthing Joffrey over Joffrey's dead body to Tommen and put bounties on Sansa's and Tyrion's heads. She only started getting happy after the shock of Tywin dying wore off and could manipulate Tommen into playing a more activate role. Tommen I don't think she mourned, partially because the prophecy came to pass and partially she felt Tommen betrayed her. And that's what I mean, she loved her children, but loved them in a completely self centered way. That's way I have to give up to the writing when Cersei got a hold of Ellaria and Tyene. Her entire monologue about Marcella all went back to Cersei: how Marcella was hers, her only daughter, how she breastfeed Marcella because she couldn't bear to see her in someone else's arms, how since she didn't get a mother, she now had a daughter to mother, nothing about Marcella as her own person. The only sentenced that Tyrion was allowed to utter about Marcella pointed towards Marcella's own character of being an innocent, nothing that had to do with her being his niece or how her death affected him.

[Francie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The issue for me (within the context of who "deserves" to rule) is that while Dany does in fact have a hereditary claim on the throne, Cersei has none. Zero. Robert Baratheon was essentially Henry Tudor. He conquered "The Mad King" Aerys (Richard III). Once Henry Tudor won the throne by right of conquest, there were plenty of Plantagenet claimants who could rightfully call him a usurper (just as Robert was called) and say they had a stronger claim to the throne by right of birth. If there were other Baratheons, I'd say they had a stronger claim because House Baratheon overthrew House Targaryen. 

But Cersei has no such claim - there is no precedent in Westeros or in the medieval England it's based on where the dowager queen of a dead king has any claim to the throne. Zilch. 

Cersei seems to have simply seized the crown by right of . . .  just being there and being able to defend it. I guess "right of conquest" is the closest you can come to her "right" to the Iron Throne but that wasn't even a conquest (inasmuch as she's not admitting to blowing up the Sept) so much as a seizing. 

So while my modern sensibilities tell me the seven kingdoms are better off as a democracy, if I had to choose who "deserved" the Iron Throne based on the rights of these fictional people, I'd say Dany has the stronger claim by far.

Here's my question for you, then. Let's say that Aegon the Conqueror had been beat back and ousted 20 years into his rule.  He had to tuck tail, and the Westeros proceeded under rule of others. Surely you'd not say that his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (thereabouts) granddaughter would still have a hereditary claim to the throne, yes?

 

So at what point under Targaryen rulership did this the heredity right kick in? 40 years? 80? 100? 150?  Westeros was a land in existence for thousands of years before Aegon showed up. The seven kingdoms go so far that much of their history is lost their "modern" times.  280 years is a blip in the scheme of things. A wink. It's only a little more than 1/4th of a 3-eyed raven time span. 

 

That's one reason why I am not all persuaded by a "heredity" argument by Dany. Once a Targaryen butt was out of that chair for a summer or so, that right was gone. Such as it ever was there to begin with. 

 

Or as Varys would say, "power resides where [people] believe it resides." Ask the Westerosi. How many would say that Daenerys was their rightful ruler? I mean, how many when not facing down the barrel of a dragon. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Francie
Typos. It's always for typos. And math. I hate math.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

I'd also like to point out that Cersei murdered her "friend" Melara Hetherspoon an eleven year old girl, so she's been pretty much a psycho since she was a preteen.

In the show, there's no hint of that. 

In the books, that's yet to be established. George loves planting these traps and begging readers to bite.  He loves his misdirection. 

I have my own theory on what happened. I'd say we'll see, but how likely it that? In any case, that's an assumption being made, and not something definitively established. 

[Colorful Mess]

5 hours ago, Francie said:

I mildly disagree with Jon. Chaos is chaos. Destruction is destruction. A family wiped out by starvation or a mother who just had her son incinerated to ashes is not going to care whether the perpetrator was well-meaning or not or whether they had a "greater good" in mind. 

Yeah, Jon seemed to have some arbitrary geographical boundary about using this new weapon on Westeros. Well you see, she roasted people OUTSIDE the city, not inside, so it's totes fine.

Ok sure, she attacked soldiers. But did he understand what he was sanctioning? Like Shakman said, a dragon is a "next level" weapon. It's tear gas, machine guns, nukes, and napalm. Jon's ethics were kind of screwed up here despite all of his development in past seasons. He appears to know about the gradients awful deaths - hence why he spares Mance from one of them.

"You should use your dragons on UNDEAD armies, not living ones." <--this is what he should have said to her.

Jon helping her tactically to use dragons for something other than his mission seems off. 

[FemmyV]

To choose Cersei over other contenders for the throne, at this point,is simply choosing the devil you know. To defend her, though, that's a real exercise in extreme situational ethics.

We have it from Oberyn that Cersei subject Tyrion to sexual battery as an infant, and just for the heck of it, here's what I can name off the top of my head:

Complicit in Bran being pushed out a window; pushed three fraudulent heirs on Westeros; homicide/regicide in Robert's case, got Margaery and Loras put behind bars, eventually murdered them; murdered her uncle, murdered everyone else in the Sept; attempted to rig Tyrion's trial.

She raised Joffrey to be a murderer as well; comparatively, Dany's dragons have only killed for food and when under orders, to attack.

I think I'd prefer to take whomever is behind curtain #3.

[Katsullivan]

By the end of season 6, Cersei had committed the same action that The Mad King had only attempted to do, and yet she still has the backing of the nobles?

Cersei has done far more now than Aerys did to start Robert's Rebellion. Then the outrage was that he had killed the head and heir of a Great House. Well by the season 6 finale, Cersei had murdered the High Septon and the Queen of Westeros. 

There is no semblance of coherency or logic in this story any more. With every episode of this license fan-fiction, D & D make it glaringly obvious that the entirety of the brilliance of this show's earlier seasons was the source material. Left to navigate on their own, they crash and burn.

19 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Torrhen "The King who knelt" Stark, the last King in the North.

And don't forget: "It was the dragons we married. And now the dragons are dead."

The Northerners were specifically rebelling against non-Targaryen Southron rule. 

[MrWhyt]

15 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

By the end of season 6, Cersei had committed the same action that The Mad King had only attempted to do, and yet she still has the backing of the nobles?

Cersei has done far more now than Aerys did to start Robert's Rebellion. Then the outrage was that he had killed the head and heir of a Great House. Well by the season 6 finale, Cersei had murdered the High Septon and the Queen of Westeros. 

There is no semblance of coherency or logic in this story any more. With every episode of this license fan-fiction, D & D make it glaringly obvious that the entirety of the brilliance of this show's earlier seasons was the source material. Left to navigate on their own, they crash and burn.

And don't forget: "It was the dragons we married. And now the dragons are dead."

The Northerners were specifically rebelling against non-Targaryen Southron rule. 

it was no secret that Aerys killed the Starks, there is no proof that Cersei was behind the destruction of the great sept. How many of the nobles are backing her anyways? She has 3 kingdoms under her control at best.

[Francie]

56 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

To choose Cersei over other contenders for the throne, at this point,is simply choosing the devil you know. To defend her, though, that's a real exercise in extreme situational ethics.

 

 

I always love it when I get someone to bite at this. Because, is it, really? Or has the reader (even more than the viewer) been conditioned to see the worst in Cersei.  I think GRRM is toying with his audience here.  He laid the incest and Jon Arryn's murder at the feet of the Lannister twins, and we were taught to hate them.  But, as the shows and books progressed, they become less and less culpable for the things laid at their feet.  I think GRRM was playing the long game here, and was going to sit back and gloat that people fell, hook, line, and sinker, at the idea that the Lannister twins were the worst of the worst. When, in reality, the vast majority of the actions that they were blamed for were crimes committed by others or no crimes altogether. 

I think, in large part, that's why D&D "softened" or seemingly "whitewashed" her a bit. Because they don't have the time to dump all that on her an then to scrape it all off again. 

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 We have it from Oberyn that Cersei subject Tyrion to sexual battery as an infant, and just for the heck of it, here's what I can name off the top of my head:

You were in her head, enough to say "just for the heck of it?" The biggest clue we get about why young Cersei physically assaults baby Tyrion is a passage in the book where Cersei recalls a time when she was growing up when her septa told her about Baelor locking up his sisters, for no other reason than they were beautiful and he didn't want to be tempted by them. Cersei recalls that she immediately went up and pinched Tyrion as hard as she could upon hearing that. At a young age, she took out her issues with patriarchy on him. 

Cersei is a 7 to 9 (Oberyn recalls her being 8 or 9, but Tyrion was born when she was 7 and it's doubtful that Oberyn and his mother sat in Old Town for nearly 2 years before calling. I put her at 7, and George is having fun making Cersei seem as accountable as possible for this event. So I'll concede between 7 and 9) year old when she tries to twist off her brother's appendage.  That speaks to me of a child not handling the loss of her mother and being told that she's just been pushed down in the pecking order beneath this deformed baby brother that her own father can't stand.  It speaks to me a a 7 to 9 year old rationalizing that if she can remove his penis, he'll no longer be a boy and her problem would be solved. 

If Cersei actually intended to sexualize the event, then she herself would have been exposed to sexualized events, and there's absolutely no indication of that (her and Jaime's "playing" was not understood by either of them to be sexualized at that time). 

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Complicit in Bran being pushed out a window;

This is where i know George has you hook, line, and sinker. Complicit how? She didn't even want to be in that room with her brother. She had begged him to go hunting with the rest of the party. But he insisted, and she placated him. Then they were discovered, and quite without consulting her, Jaime pushed Bran out the window.  

The book goes to pains to show that she gave Jaime no end to grief over that.  The show duplicated one of those moments in season 1.  To hold her complicit in an attempted murder when she had no knowledge that's what her brother intended to do is, to me, ludricrous. 

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 pushed three fraudulent heirs on Westeros;

Not one of her brightest decisions, I argue. I don't know what her rationale was there. I don't know if that was the narcissist in her that compelled her to do that.  Or if it was her total disgust with an abusive husband. In any event, bringing those children into the world and putting them in danger from the second they were born was nothing less than reckless. I seriously fault her judgment there. 

Some of the following she should be held accountable for. She and others played with fire, and they each got burned. Some more than others 

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homicide/regicide in Robert's case,

In the books, it was getting to the point of kill or be killed. Renly and Loras hatched a plot to get Robert to "set her aside" for Margaery.  Cersei got wind of it, and yes, she conspired in Robert's murder -- was at the apex of the conspiracy. 

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 got Margaery and Loras put behind bars,

Margaery and Cersei were playing the game of thrones, volleying back and forth.  Margaery crept into her son's room, attempted to manipulate him, made fun of him behind his back, and then conspired to get Cersei out of King's Landing. Cersei genuinely worried for Tommen's well being in the hands of the Tyrells. She wasn't going anywhere. Frankly, given that the Tyrells had murdered Tommen's older brother, Cersei made the right call there. So long as he was tractable, the Tyrells would've used Tommen. If he wasn't, there were no limits as to what Olenna was capable of. 

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eventually murdered them; murdered her uncle, murdered everyone else in the Sept;

Cersei would have settled for getting out of that mess with trial by combat. Once those conspiring against her took that option away, they didn't give her much alternative -- if any alternative -- to get herself out of that mess. 

Cersei did approach Olenna about working together to get Loras out of jail.  Olenna, perhaps seemingly wisely at the time, but in the end not so much, turned her down. 

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 attempted to rig Tyrion's trial.

She did truly, honestly believe that he was guilty. But, yes, she stacked the deck with a few witnesses eager to help and a few not so eager, but helpful anyway. 

The interesting point to that is that the writer of that episode was told by D&D to go back and pull all the actual evidence there was that pointed toward Tyrion's guilty. The writer acknowledged that there was quite a lot. 

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 She raised Joffrey to be a murderer as well;

Wait, what? She told Joffrey to be nice to Sansa, and give her a gift. She tried to teach her about war strategy. She taught him to be prideful. But raised him to be a murderer? How did she do that, exactly? That's getting a bit hyperbolic. 

(Below goes under the following quote, but my device won't cooperate)

I don't think either are qualified for the job.  Putting aside Jon, Davos, Tyrion, and even Jaime as candidates, I'd give the job to Lyanna Mormont before I'd give it to either of those two ladies. 

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comparatively, Dany's dragons have only killed for food and when under orders, to attack.

I think I'd prefer to take whomever is behind curtain #3. 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Francie
Formatting is not my friend

[WindyNights]

On 8/7/2017 at 4:00 PM, Constantinople said:

Just because someone is a member of the Night's Watch doesn't mean he's serving at the Wall.  Yoren spent much of his time travelling around the Seven Kingdoms picking-up recruits.

One could argue in a hyper technical way that Jon has merely resigned as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he is on assignment as King of the North.

I'm not making that argument myself, but I suppose it's a possibility since Jon apparently doesn't want people to know his risen from the dead.

That would not work at all. Part of the Night's Watch says that they will wear no crowns. Legally, Jon should be executed on the spot.

[TarotQueen]

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Overall, no, I don't like Cersei much.  I can see missed potential in her, which makes her also a tragic figure to me.  One of my biggest bad guys in the story is Robert Barratheon, so far for me even moreso than the Lannister twins.

QFT.  Robert was a right MFer whose only redeemable quality was having been able to acquire Ned as a friend.

[Pogojoco]

@Francie Bless you. I like Cersei because Lena Heady is so good and I don't want to lose her anytime soon, but this is impassioned. Cersei is indeed very much a product of her family, her time.. She's not cartoonishly evil like Ramsey Bolton. One thing I think defines Cersei is barely contained rage. And I think it started when she wasn't born male, so she could inherit her father's seat as the first born. I don't think she's a great ruler or that she "deserves" the throne. And she's definitely crazy. But it's all more nuanced than Cersei=bad, Dany = good.

 

And yeah, in the show, she most definitely isn't complicit in shoving Bran out the window. I believe she admonishes Jaime and tells him he should've just intimidated him or frightened Bran into thinking he didn't see what he saw.  

 

The thing about Robert is that he wasn't really evil. He was full of all the things that people admire in this world, but he wasn't designed to be a responsible, level headed ruler or be middle aged. And probably should've died in glory on the battlefield at about 22 and have glorious songs written about him. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Pogojoco

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Francie said:

I've long thought that Littlefinger started the rumor that Rhaegar forciably kidnapped Lyanna in order to get hot-blooded Brandon Stark to do exactly what he did.  

As we all know, a rumor can make its way around the world before the truth has time to lace its shoes. 

It doesn't work, at least in the books. If Littlefinger and Brandon were at Riverrun when Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, AND if Lyanna and Rhaegar were dumb enough to only send ONE single raven to Riverrun announcing their intentions with a "we ran off together, sorry Brandon, Lord Rickard, Robert, King Aerys, Elia, and everyone else we're mortally offending, tee-hee!" AND never checked for months afterwards if that single letter got where it was going, AND if LF were clever enough to intercept the raven and letter at Riverrun before the maester read it, THEN maybe he could have done it.

But in the books LF was severely wounded by Brandon at Riverrun and sent back to the Fingers two weeks later for good as soon as he'd recovered enough to travel, having lost Lord Hoster's favor by challenging his eminent guest and future son-in-law to an embarrassing duel. Even if he were still at Riverrun when Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away together, he couldn't have been in a position to intercept the news of their flight by raven from Brandon...Brandon got the news while he was on the way back to Riverrun, not AT Riverrun. And I can't imagine LF at 15, still recovering from a severe wound, disgraced and a total penniless nobody either in exile at the Fingers or at Riverrun, could somehow be so influential that he could manage to suborn a distant maester to burn such an important message if he weren't in a position to destroy it himself.

In the books, at least, the simplest explanation IS that Rhaegar and Lyanna acted selfishly and irresponsibly by refusing to communicate their situation with the world for months. This one can't be pinned on LF.

That's the books, though. The show can (and probably will) do whatever the fuck they want.

Edited August 11, 2017 by screamin

[FemmyV]

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I think GRRM is toying with his audience here.  He laid the incest and Jon Arryn's murder at the feet of the Lannister twins, and we were taught to hate them.  

Neat literary device, but irrelevant to this particular conversation, as that wasn't one of the accusations for her unfitness.

Quote

You were in her head, enough to say "just for the heck of it?" The biggest clue we get about why young Cersei physically assaults baby Tyrion is a passage in the book where Cersei recalls a

Hmmm, I'm afraid my phrasing left the intent less than clear so I'll redo: "... battery as an infant. And just for the heck of it, here's what I can name off the top of my head: .." Whatever was the reason for Cersei's action was not in question, simply pointing out her early psychotic behavior.

Quote

This is where i know George has you hook, line, and sinker. Complicit how? She didn't even want to be in that room with her brother.

I am going less on GRRM and more on Miriam Webster. Whether or not she wanted to be there, is irrelevant. She was there. A crime was committed, she assisted in its cover up. That equals complicit.

Re: blowing up the Sept -

Quote

Cersei would have settled for getting out of that mess with trial by combat.

Doesn't matter. What matters is that she DID blow the mother up.

Re: fixing Tyrion's trial

Quote

She did truly, honestly believe that he was guilty.

She wanted to believe he was guilty. And it doesn't matter, it doesn't change her attempt at controlling an outcome that would be favorable to her and deathly to innocent others.

Quote

But raised him to be a murderer? How did she do that, exactly? That's getting a bit hyperbolic. 

How she did it is less important than the fact that she did, indeed, raise a sadistic murderer. Considering her previously mentioned treatment of Tyrion and what she left for Septa Unella, the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

 

It would be pretty funny if, in the books it turns out the Cersei morphs into a surprisingly humane, competent ruler ... but I don't think we're going there.

[LadyPenelope]

Quote

Not one of her brightest decisions, I argue. I don't know what her rationale was there. I don't know if that was the narcissist in her that compelled her to do that.  Or if it was her total disgust with an abusive husband. In any event, bringing those children into the world and putting them in danger from the second they were born was nothing less than reckless. I seriously fault her judgment there. 

Love this whole post, but to your point here - I think it is both reasonable and understandable that a teenaged girl married to somebody who beat, raped and humiliated her, might choose to have the children of the man she actually loved and admired instead. It was an expression of bodily autonomy which may not have been wise, but would have been sympathetic had that story not been initially framed from Ned's point of view where Cersei is already "the Lannister woman" who he despises. 

At this point, however, she has completely lost the plot and would definitely not be a good, kind or just ruler. Whether Dany would or not remains to be seen.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

In the books, at least, the simplest explanation IS that Rhaegar and Lyanna acted selfishly and irresponsibly by refusing to communicate their situation with the world for months. This one can't be pinned on LF.

I've been thinking about this for a while. I think i finally get what they were going for. They were planning on doing the same thing that egg's kids did to him.  Getting secretly betrothed and coming back with Lyanna pregnant so that the world had no choice but to accept their marriage.  Ironically enough, the baratheons got screwed in that situation as well.

But yea, I agree with this post that no way did Littlefinger have a hand in spreading the chaos that arose from that sitch.

 

Jon and Dany would do well to switch hands since their respective hands fits the other person better imo.

 

Choosing between Dany and Cersei is a no win situation.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Oscirus

[Francie]

6 hours ago, FemmyV said:

It would be pretty funny if, in the books it turns out the Cersei morphs into a surprisingly humane, competent ruler ... but I don't think we're going there.

I think we all can judge how Cersei is as a ruler. We see her actions. In the books, we're occasionally in her mind.  In the books, she's completely irrational, and motivated largely by paranoia. She's not a humane, competent ruler.  At best, she's dismissive of her subjects.  More accurately, I think she's negligent. 

Where I think we're all being punked is as to her backstory.  Too many things have been conveniently suggested, but not proven.  What I think we're seeing is that it took a village to create this monster. I think we'll see that she's not a sociopath or psychopath. She's been a pawn to so many for so long that she wound up totally and completely screwed up. And she's been scapegoated by these game of thrones players since she came to court, and perhaps even before then. 

 

3 hours ago, LadyPenelope said:

Love this whole post, but to your point here - I think it is both reasonable and understandable that a teenaged girl married to somebody who beat, raped and humiliated her, might choose to have the children of the man she actually loved and admired instead. It was an expression of bodily autonomy which may not have been wise, but would have been sympathetic had that story not been initially framed from Ned's point of view where Cersei is already "the Lannister woman" who he despises. 

At this point, however, she has completely lost the plot and would definitely not be a good, kind or just ruler. 

Very fair. And well said. 

[Bill1978]

Late to the party I know, But thought I would still share my thoughts on the episode.

The Good

1. The Stark Reunion - It feels like I've been waiting an eternity for this reunion to occur. And it didn't disappoint. Well actually the only thing that was disappointing was that Dickon...er I mean Rickon, didn't live long enough for the reunion. I always imagined that the Stark children would have reunited before any of them started dying. It would be nice if the show could have shown us Arya and Bran paying respect to their brother, but I know that's not important.

2. The Cave Art scene. I'm really here for the WW plot not the throne plot, so it was nice to get a bit more tidbits on the history of them. Even if I did wonder if Jon drew the paintings on the wall to manipulate Dany into supporting him

3. That final moment of Jamie rushing to Dany. I wasn't sure what was going to happen and I wasn't sure who at that moment I was ready to see die. Or wanted to die. Thankfully, the impossible happened and the writers delayed themselves from having to decide.

4. Drogon getting injured - For a long time I have thought how can there be a decent fight for Westeros when all Dany has to do is use her dragons. So the use of The Scorpion this episode helped balance the fight a bit I felt.

 

The Boring (I refuse to say Bad)

1. Cersei - anything to do with her, just bores me. I have no interest in anything she does. At this stage they could kill her off screen and I wouldn't care.  Just knowing I don't have to listen to her ever again would make me happy. I'll admit part of my issue with her plot is it still puzzles me to how she got to be Queen. I would have liked to have seen the discussions or the move she made that convinced every one she was the right choice. I feel the writers really dropped the ball there, when all they were wanting was a shock moment for the finale of S6

2. The Actual Battle - I know I'm in the minority here. But the battle was only exciting when Bronn was running through it all trying to get to the scorpion. I tend to glaze over whenever I watch any battles on screen from Thrones to Middle-Earth. Anonymous people running towards one another and hacking each other means nothing to me. But throw in characters I know, and you can hold my interest. Not enough focus on characters for my liking.

 

Random Question Time: For a while now, I've been wondering how the show is going to get characters to believe completely that Jon is the son of his aunt? For me, relying solely on Bran's intel is like everybody believing in the man who stands on the corner saying the world is about to end. Yes it might be true but it's not very convincing, cause it's still just one man's word. If Sam finds something in the Citadel's books is that enough to convince an entire continent? Like the Citadel is never wrong, and what they say is fact??

[Francie]

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

ow she did it is less important than the fact that she did, indeed, raise a sadistic murderer. Considering her previously mentioned treatment of Tyrion and what she left for Septa Unella, the apple didn't fall far from the tree

It's interesting that you lay Joffrey at her feet.

Which, of two people Joffrey knew as parents, held dismissive attitudes toward women? Which hit him so hard, when he was young, that baby teeth flew from his mouth? Which parent hit the other parent? Which parent did Joffrey have the attention of and which parent ignored him because he didn't coo and entertain him?  Which parent did Joffrey attempt to impress with his presentation of the kitten fetuses? Whose approval was he trying to get there? 

As to how Joffrey treated Sansa, which parent told him to be nice to her and give her a gift? And which said, when Joffrey and Arya was presented to him following the incident at the Trident, "you let a girl disarm you?" dismissively and in an attempt to embarrass him in front of others? Which parent likely played a bigger role in his contempt of women? 

Which parent was the ruler, and was in a position to teach his son what it meant to be a ruler? Which parent had could have taken his son to small council meetings to show him what it meant to govern? Which parent was off whoring and hunting instead, and never bothered to attend small council meetings himself? 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Francie
Added the last paragraph to pile on how shitty a parent Robert was

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

Random Question Time: For a while now, I've been wondering how the show is going to get characters to believe completely that Jon is the son of his aunt? For me, relying solely on Bran's intel is like everybody believing in the man who stands on the corner saying the world is about to end. Yes it might be true but it's not very convincing, cause it's still just one man's word. If Sam finds something in the Citadel's books is that enough to convince an entire continent? Like the Citadel is never wrong, and what they say is fact??

What if the only survivor from the Tower of Joy leaves his home with his daughter Meera as it's being overrun by WW and finally starts to tell the story because he already is aware his daughter and Bran know, and are intending to tell Jon anyway?

My random question, did not Ser Arthur Dayne carry a Valerian steel sword, and isn't it likely the man who defeated him might have hung onto it?

Edited August 11, 2017 by Tikichick

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

What if the only survivor from the Tower of Joy leaves his home with his daughter Meera as it's being overrun by WW and finally starts to tell the story because he already is aware his daughter and Bran know, and are intending to tell Jon anyway?

My random question, did not Ser Arthur Dayne carry a Valerian steel sword, and isn't it likely the man who defeated him might have hung onto it?

Arthur Dayne did not carry a Valyrian sword. His sword was allegedly forged from a fallen meteor some ten thousand years ago.

After Arthur's death (he can't be dead, I refuse to believe he's dead!) Ned took the sword back to Starfall and that's where it has been for the past 18 years or so. Dawn is not passed down from generation to generation like the Valyrian swords are.

Edited August 11, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, Francie said:

Cersei's reaction to Tommen's death struck me as a defeated sadness and resignation as opposed to the angry sort of loss she felt with Joffrey and more emotion response to Myrcella.  I guess I've seen others go numb and dead inside in reaction to tragic news.  For her, too, not only had the prophecy been fulfilled, this was the last shred of what she was fighting for.  

Possibly the numb of shock.  More likely it put her on high alert regarding the prophecy and simply the jeopardy she was in if she were not to hold the throne.

I don't feel her children on the throne was ever anything more than what she thought was the only means she had to have the power herself.  Frankly she had to have some doubts about her prospects with Joffrey on the throne, but I think she assumed she could manipulate him in the end.  She saw Tommen as entirely her puppet -- until someone seized the strings and manipulated him against her.  At that point she determined to get the upper hand and leave absolutely no room for anyone else to get near him to control him ever again.

I see Cersei as a woman determined to have complete autonomy above all else, to be in a position where no one will ever overrule her, push her dismissively to the side and ignore what she thinks ever again, and certainly never again attempt to tell her she should marry and whom she will marry.  In the end, if she had to step over Tommen's dead body to make sure she was in that position, so be it.      

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Arthur Dayne did not carry a Valyrian sword. His sword was allegedly forged from a fallen meteor some ten thousand years ago.

After Arthur's death (he can't be dead, I refuse to believe he's dead!) Ned took the sword back to Starfall and that's where it has been for the past 18 years or so. Dawn is not passed down from generation to generation like the Valyrian swords are.

Thank you for the info, one of those things that fell into the sands of time and the blizzard of details in the books so long ago.  For me the origin story of the sword is intriguing enough to give me hope it means something special.

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Thank you for the info, one of those things that fell into the sands of time and the blizzard of details in the books so long ago.  For me the origin story of the sword is intriguing enough to give me hope it means something special.

Arthur himself has been brought up in every single book. There's talk about his character, his prowess in battle for there not to be more. And as soon as he's brought up, we're reminded that he was the Sword of the Morning and the wielder of Dawn. There is a lot more going on there and I'm not convinced he's dead at all and there's something in TWOIAF that made me wonder even more.

4 minutes ago, doram said:

His sister - the one everyone assumed was Jon's mother - committed suicide after that, didn't she?

Yes, Ashara with the violet eyes.

[MarySNJ]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The issue for me (within the context of who "deserves" to rule) is that while Dany does in fact have a hereditary claim on the throne, Cersei has none. Zero. Robert Baratheon was essentially Henry Tudor. He conquered "The Mad King" Aerys (Richard III). Once Henry Tudor won the throne by right of conquest, there were plenty of Plantagenet claimants who could rightfully call him a usurper (just as Robert was called) and say they had a stronger claim to the throne by right of birth. If there were other Baratheons, I'd say they had a stronger claim because House Baratheon overthrew House Targaryen. 

But Cersei has no such claim - there is no precedent in Westeros or in the medieval England it's based on where the dowager queen of a dead king has any claim to the throne. Zilch. 

Cersei seems to have simply seized the crown by right of . . .  just being there and being able to defend it. I guess "right of conquest" is the closest you can come to her "right" to the Iron Throne but that wasn't even a conquest (inasmuch as she's not admitting to blowing up the Sept) so much as a seizing. 

So while my modern sensibilities tell me the seven kingdoms are better off as a democracy, if I had to choose who "deserved" the Iron Throne based on the rights of these fictional people, I'd say Dany has the stronger claim by far.

I've seen GRRM and historians compare Robert Baratheon to Edward IV, and Daenerys to Henry Tudor.  The analogy works either way (loosely), because Edward deposed Mad King Henry VI and after Edward died, Richard III took the throne while Edward's sons were declared illegitimate, in the same way that Stannis and Renly declared Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella to be bastards to rally their bannermen to support their own respective claims. Stannis is still alive in the books, and I suppose he could end up playing Richard III by taking the throne and deposing Tommen, but I think the show storyline may have spoiled that BookStannis is just as doomed. 

Meanwhile on the show, the Elizabeth Woodville analog (Cersei) is on the throne, and has no right to the throne in her own name.  In that I very much agree with you. Cersei is sitting on the IT because she blew up a Sept full of high status people including Queen Margaery and threatened others into accepting her rule. Also, she is the only member of the royal family left and is in the right place at the right time. 

Dany has a better hereditary claim but at this point the Targaryen dynasty is done. She will have to win it back with Fire and Blood™,  just as Henry Tudor had to win back the crown of England for the Lancastrians by fighting for it.

Jon actually is a potential foiler here. Very few people know that Jon is Rhaegar's son. If/when that it is disclosed and he is arguably trueborn, he would have a better blood claim than Dany if he wanted to claim it.  Luckily for Dany, Jon doesn't seem to want to rule the Seven Kingdoms. As it is, he reluctantly rules the North because he wants to save it. 

[Tikichick]

51 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Arthur himself has been brought up in every single book. There's talk about his character, his prowess in battle for there not to be more. And as soon as he's brought up, we're reminded that he was the Sword of the Morning and the wielder of Dawn. There is a lot more going on there and I'm not convinced he's dead at all and there's something in TWOIAF that made me wonder even more.

Yes, Ashara with the violet eyes.

Very interesting!

Ashara is another detail I lost track of in the sea of very similar sounding names.  Violet eyes?  Intriguing.

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Cersei is sitting on the IT because she blew up a Sept full of high status people including Queen Margaery and threatened others into accepting her rule.

Forgot to say, that's regicide X2.

[Katsullivan]

12 hours ago, screamin said:

It doesn't work, at least in the books. If Littlefinger and Brandon were at Riverrun when Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, AND if Lyanna and Rhaegar were dumb enough to only send ONE single raven to Riverrun announcing their intentions with a "we ran off together, sorry Brandon, Lord Rickard, Robert, King Aerys, Elia, and everyone else we're mortally offending, tee-hee!" AND never checked for months afterwards if that single letter got where it was going, AND if LF were clever enough to intercept the raven and letter at Riverrun before the maester read it, THEN maybe he could have done it.

But in the books LF was severely wounded by Brandon at Riverrun and sent back to the Fingers two weeks later for good as soon as he'd recovered enough to travel, having lost Lord Hoster's favor by challenging his eminent guest and future son-in-law to an embarrassing duel. Even if he were still at Riverrun when Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away together, he couldn't have been in a position to intercept the news of their flight by raven from Brandon...Brandon got the news while he was on the way back to Riverrun, not AT Riverrun. And I can't imagine LF at 15, still recovering from a severe wound, disgraced and a total penniless nobody either in exile at the Fingers or at Riverrun, could somehow be so influential that he could manage to suborn a distant maester to burn such an important message if he weren't in a position to destroy it himself.

In the books, at least, the simplest explanation IS that Rhaegar and Lyanna acted selfishly and irresponsibly by refusing to communicate their situation with the world for months. This one can't be pinned on LF.

That's the books, though. The show can (and probably will) do whatever the fuck they want.

The theory I heard was that Varys was behind this. Rhaegar entrusted him with the task of sending out the ravens and he didn't. ::shrugs:: We'll probably never know what GRRM had in mind for this. More's the pity.

[Helena Dax]

I don't understand the idea that Dany shouldn't use her dragons without a warning because they're some kind of nuclear bomb. They all know she's got dragons; what other warning do they need? It's pretty obvious that she's planning to use them. 

Now, if I had to choose between Dany and Cersei, I'd choose Dany without a doubt. Cersei's insane and she doesn't give a fuck about anyone, now that her kids are dead. Look at the people around Dany: ser Jorah, Missandei, Grey Worm... They see her everyday and they still like her and respect her. They've been following her almost since the beginning. Cersei's got her fuckboy and Qyburn, who is a monster.

And Jon... Jon is like Harry Potter." I didn't want this, but I've been chosen". I like him, but  I'm a bit tired of this kind of male character so I'll be a bit pissed if he ends up on the Iron Throne instead of Dany.

I'm not sure but according to some comments, is someone important from the Vale with LF and Robin in Winterfell? Because I never forget that LF started all this mess when he told Lysa to murder Jon Arryn and frame the Lannisters. And it'd be awesome if Google!Bran put the cards on the table and someone killed LF. 

Btw, Robin is my guilty pleasure. I need to see him! C'mon show!

[Tikichick]

I don't believe Robyn Arryn has ever been to Winterfell.

[Helena Dax]

Oh, that's sad.

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

So while my modern sensibilities tell me the seven kingdoms are better off as a democracy, if I had to choose who "deserved" the Iron Throne based on the rights of these fictional people, I'd say Dany has the stronger claim by far.

Dany has the stronger claim, by far, especially now that Robert's heirs are all gone.

As far as democracy goes though: the 7K doesn't have the technology level necessary for that. Most of the people are illiterate and plot convenience aside, news travels very slowly. There is still a serf system in place. Realistically, you can't go to a democracy overnight (unless it's very limited like only the Wardens/lord paramounts get a vote, and even then it wouldn't be workable) from this kind of society.

13 hours ago, WindyNights said:

That would not work at all. Part of the Night's Watch says that they will wear no crowns. Legally, Jon should be executed on the spot.

Jon was executed on the spot. Which arguably released him from said vows. Even if not, both the Night's Watch and most of the north are very happy to see Jon as king. For the latter, he is a genuine Stark and qualified (a cripple or a girl are less likely to gain traction in this kind of society)  and has proven himself, where for the former having one of their own at the top means the Watch and the Wall are finally getting the attention they need.

The people who executed Jon got executed in return, and others like Ramsay also got executed. There are no volunteers for that anymore.

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't understand the idea that Dany shouldn't use her dragons without a warning because they're some kind of nuclear bomb. They all know she's got dragons; what other warning do they need? It's pretty obvious that she's planning to use them. 

I don't understand why she doesn't torch Euron's navy and the Red Keep, but then it would be game over for Cersei

[Blonde Gator]

3 hours ago, doram said:

His sister - the one everyone assumed was Jon's mother - committed suicide after that, didn't she?

That's the official story.  Ashara Dayne.  Supposedly threw herself off a tower into the sea, her body never recovered, after either losing a stillborn baby (girl, Ned's?) or being the cause of her brother's death.  It is NOT known.  (to coin a phrase)

She was THE great beauty at Harrenhall.  In the books, Baristan Selmy tells Dany of the tourney, and his regret for never-stated love for Ashara (and on the show tells her of her brother Rhaegar winning the tourney, crowing Lyanna as the Princess of Love and Beauty, as Barristan regrets not winning so he could have crowned Ashara Dayne).  There are so many "theories" about Ashara Dayne out there....even to the point that she's Meera's mom.  In the book, she might be Septa Lemore, who is with Jon Con, fAegon, Tyrion et. al. on the riverboat in Essos.  Tyrion is kind of infatuated with her womanly shape (and his descriptions of the Septa fit what an older Ashara might look like), alas, he only describes her boobs, never her eyes.  Ashara Dayne has "haunting purple eyes". 

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

That's the official story.  Ashara Dayne.  Supposedly threw herself off a tower into the sea, her body never recovered, after either losing a stillborn baby (girl, Ned's?) or being the cause of her brother's death.  It is NOT known.  (to coin a phrase)

She was THE great beauty at Harrenhall.  In the books, Baristan Selmy tells Dany of the tourney, and his regret for never-stated love for Ashara (and on the show tells her of her brother Rhaegar winning the tourney, crowing Lyanna as the Princess of Love and Beauty, as Barristan regrets not winning so he could have crowned Ashara Dayne).  There are so many "theories" about Ashara Dayne out there....even to the point that she's Meera's mom.  In the book, she might be Septa Lemore, who is with Jon Con, fAegon, Tyrion et. al. on the riverboat in Essos.  Tyrion is kind of infatuated with her womanly shape (and his descriptions of the Septa fit what an older Ashara might look like), alas, he only describes her boobs, never her eyes.  Ashara Dayne has "haunting purple eyes". 

Whoops, only intended to like, hit quote instead.

All these years I have never come up with any real potential identities for Septa Lemore.  I believe my best contenders were Gendry's mother and Elia Martell, both of which were pretty much non starters in even to me.

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Whoops, only intended to like, hit quote instead.

All these years I have never come up with any real potential identities for Septa Lemore.  I believe my best contenders were Gendry's mother and Elia Martell, both of which were pretty much non starters in even to me.

Supposedly one of the Sand Snakes was the daughter of a Septa.  She's blonde haired and blue eyed (no relation to Ashara, but interesting none-the-less).  Show Snakes were supposedly all Elaria's daughters, but there were 8 in the books, and only the youngest four were Elaria's.  Obarra was the oldest, IIRC, and the meanest.  Oops, I meant Barbaro!!! (RIP Queen of Thorns).

Here are a few of the Septa Lemore theories:  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore/Theories

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

The theory I heard was that Varys was behind this. Rhaegar entrusted him with the task of sending out the ravens and he didn't. ::shrugs:: We'll probably never know what GRRM had in mind for this. More's the pity.

That makes even less sense. Why would Rhaegar ever entrust Varys with something like that knowing how the man messed up his plans at Harrenhal when he managed to convince Aerys to attend?

Pycelle makes more sense. He was a Lannister toady. Pycelle clicks with the ravens because he's a maester, he takes care of the correspondence. And there was a line from Tyrion in ACOK when he went to have Pycelle arrested and Pycelle tells Tyrion that everything he ever did was for House Lannister, that's why he convinced Aerys to open the gates. Then Tyrion asks him how many people he betrayed. And he names Aerys, Ned, himself (Tyrion), Robert? Jon Arryn, Prince Rhaegar. And he asks him where it begins. That's such an open ended question since Pycelle had been Grand Maester for 40 years.

And yeah, more's the pity that we may never find out.

[FnkyChkn34]

Do these people ever age?  How old is Varys?  For the theory that he's the one who hid the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar mess, then he was just a mere child?  Or is he actually super old now?

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Do these people ever age?  How old is Varys?  For the theory that he's the one who hid the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar mess, then he was just a mere child?  Or is he actually super old now?

Pycelle certainly could have done with having a little nip and tuck.  He was definitely showing his miles the entire series.

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Do these people ever age?  How old is Varys?  For the theory that he's the one who hid the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar mess, then he was just a mere child?  Or is he actually super old now?

Aerys brought Varys from Essos in 279.  Varys has been in Westeros for 21 years. I guess he could easily be in his early to mid-forties?

[VCRTracking]

Quote

Pycelle certainly could have done with having a little nip and tuck.  He was definitely showing his miles the entire series.

The actor who played Pycelle already looked old in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade back in 1989 before he drank from the false grail!

A lot of people online have joked about Jon drawing those Whitewalker drawings himself but now I'm kind of convinced it's true!

Edited August 11, 2017 by VCRTracking