S07.E02: Stormborn

[Neurochick]

Ugh, Euron, what a pig.

Disturbing that so many here rejoiced at the death of two female characters, sure they were Sand Snakes and boring but still, at least they weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

Oh right, they killed Cercei's daughter, who I never cared about anyway, I guess that's justice for Cercei.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Neurochick

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Well she didn't, In book she backed up her sister's story to Ned, in show they bypassed it.

Writers had Ned explain that Sansa has to take Joffery's side no matter what.

 Arrya asked how can you let her marry someone like that; Ned had no answer.

Cerrsei would demand Arya be punished ( usually lost of hand )Robert may not go that far, but Cersei would,.

Cersei opted for killing a wolf, any wolf.

Sansa tried to play the middle not going against anyone and got burned. 

Her sister and betrothed put her in a no win situation.

Yes, I know all of that and I didn't care for Ned's response either.  Still doesn't change the fact that she erred in the wrong direction.  My point (in an admittedly obscure way) to the OP was that Sansa can't call Tyrion out for supporting Joffrey because she made her share of questionable choices as well in KL. 

[Minneapple]

I think it's more lately that Dany's arc has been "and the dragons." Dany's season 1 arc was my favorite of the entire series. But since the dragons hatched, they have been used quite a bit as a crutch for her storyline. I mean I suppose it makes sense. Fucking DRAGONS, you know? But it also gets to the point where they're not used properly, like why not just drag out the bloody dragons to attack King's Landing? Because women and children...and we can't afford the CGI in this episode.

[Advance35]

Quote

You were comparing Daenerys to Margaery. Margaery wouldn't have amounted to much without the luck of being born into a wealthy family whose goal was for her to have a powerful advantageous marriage. If Olenna believed that Margery's "guile, intellect or creativity" was as powerful you do, she wouldn't have murdered Joffrey to protect her. Despite having this "ace" and being loved by so many people, Margaery is dead.

Yes. Very true.  And I still find Margaery's rise and fall and it's after effects more interesting/impressive than Dany as a whole.  I guess for me, Margaery and Olenna's qualities (scheming with a nose for opportunity) are more relatable/engaging then Dany's Supergirl (Dragons burn this, Dragons burn that).  I found Margaery to be very intelligent, I think it helped her and her family climb to the top of a vicious pyramid, just wasn't enough to keep them there.  

Dany's divine right doesn't hold the same appeal for me though it's clear some find what I consider to be oatmeal, shakespearean.   It's the magic of it all.  The Lord of The Rings like characters and plot points have long been yawn worthy for me.  Dany was the only one in that meeting I haven't had an interest in at one point or another.

[tennisgurl]

You know, Euron is definitely a Bad Guy, but I have to give him credit, the guy knows how to lead a battle. I can give any leader props for leading the charge into battle, and not just commanding from a ship farther away in the background. Its how I think the Greyjoys should have been done this whole time. They're badass crazy pirate nobles, and Euron is the first one that I really buy that of. I can at least appreciate a villain who literally rains fire on his enemy's while swinging an axe at people and cackling like a mad man.

On the other hand, I'm eternally disappointed as to how they handled the whole Sand Snake/Dorne story in this show. You can tell the people behind the scenes never really cared about them, and just tried to get through their plot as quickly as possible, even if it meant every character had to be either a psycho or a nonentity.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I think it's more lately that Dany's arc has been "and the dragons." Dany's season 1 arc was my favorite of the entire series. But since the dragons hatched, they have been used quite a bit as a crutch for her storyline. I mean I suppose it makes sense. Fucking DRAGONS, you know? But it also gets to the point where they're not used properly, like why not just drag out the bloody dragons to attack King's Landing? Because women and children...and we can't afford the CGI in this episode.

I mean, Sansa is supposed to be some kind of genius game player and political expert at this stage. She knows that only a fool will trust LF. She knows up close all the evil, manipulative things he has done.   LF is powerless in WF - why can't Sansa just dispose of him in one episode, send word to the Vale that LF died in an accident and Royce can take over. Simple as that. But they need LF to last a while because he is Sansa's plot.

Similarly they need Cersei to last a while. If the dragons attacked KL, Cersei would not last two episodes. It's the same reason, the giant was bloody useless during the battle of the bastards. Same reason that Sansa did not mention to Jon about the Vale army. Same reason, Tarly stupidly joins with Cersei despite he himself pointing out that Dany has three dragons...Because plot.

Edited July 25, 2017 by anamika

[dr pepper]

On 7/23/2017 at 7:54 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

Quick question - is Grey Worm without both twig and berries or just berries?  I know that Reek is without both and Varys is missing just the fruit. 

All are smoothed. They don't do things halfway in Westeros.

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Yes, I know all of that and I didn't care for Ned's response either.  Still doesn't change the fact that she erred in the wrong direction.  My point (in an admittedly obscure way) to the OP was that Sansa can't call Tyrion out for supporting Joffrey because she made her share of questionable choices as well in KL. 

Every damn person in this story made questionable choices, but on a scale of evilness Sansa's like so far back there you can't see it.

She never pushed a friend down a well at 13, or torture her little brother's penis , or give people to a Franken doctor to do live experiments on them like Cersei, hasn't burn people alive, or crucified them, hasn't flayed anyone, or poison anyone , hasn't rape anyone , etc.

Bad choices: Sansa's bad choice was disobeying her dad to say good bye, only to be taken prisoner and subsequently give out info that Cersei used  to prevent her house slim chance of escaping from KL. questionable choice on a singer who attempted to rape her, but is captive by someone who framed her for Kings murder, can't trust anyone with the truth.

Ned failed by making arraignments to get a ship, yet on the same day say to us that he couldn't use his children's safety as an excuse to tell Cersei his plan to tell Robert that his wife created treason along with Jamie ( who you know pushed a kid out a window ) Ned get your kids out before you worry about a traitor's kid.

We have Cat, taking Tyrion, letting Jamie go, trusting LF ( along with many people by the way much older then Sansa ) kills a handicapped child.

Robb: broke a promise, made a bad decision on Lord Karstark, both cost him his life and the life of every major northern house the war

Arrya hitting the Prince, while for a just reason was the wrong move, along with Joffry being a dick created the situation where Mycah lost his life, Arya lost her wolf and Sansa lost hers. ALso though it's a survival thing she's killed people with at least one which is questionable, poison people

The death of Mycah, and Lady is squarely on Cersei, Joffery, robert Ned ( he could of sent the wolf home, but honor eh. )and though he was just following orders the Hound ( he could have told Cersei the kid disappeared.

Tyrion: kills singer who made a song that he didn't like, had said singer turned into a bowl of brown, killed women because they didn't want to have sex with him, fondles a 12 year old , kills his father, kills his lover etc.

Lady Olena- kills a child using poison on his wedding day, framing an innocent girl and said girl's husband.

Then we got peter Baleish who fucked all these people over because he was slighted  along with forcing a young girl (s) into prostitution, used same girl as a ruse to fool the Boltons where said child is beaten, raped not just by her forced husband, but also his dogs and girlfriend. Kills his wife, helps poison wife's husband, helps poison the King on his wedding day, betrays Ned Stark, kidnaps Stark's daughter with bad intentions.

Lord Manderly- Frey Pies

Lords Frey,Bolton and Lannister Red wedding .

Ramsey Bolton : flayed , hunted,tortured many,enough said.

We have a Frendoctor, who creates a killing zombie, experiments and tortures people alive.

If we were scoring evil ; Sansa would be a negative number compared to everyone else. Could she possibly turn bad, sure but so far all indications show a small chance, probably a life saving or family saving situation.

Her number 1 crime, being naive .

[Nanrad]

I believe this episode dispels that Arya is bloodthirsty and doesn't process emotions.

Arya wasn't all smiles and "oh my God!!!! How have you been Hot Pie, it's been so long!!!", but it's clear that she had some fondness for him and cared about his well-being. In that moment, she was focused on her mission. She thought she had no home to go back to, she hadn't seen Jon since forever--she just felt like she had herself. Despite believing Hot Pie is a good person, she doesn't know what to make of him either, which was why she was caught off guard with "friends don't pay." I think Arya is heavily guarded because she's only ever had herself for a long time with a companion or two here and there.

Now, if that was Gendry who greeted her....

Then, as soon as she finds out that Jon is alive in Winterfell, she abandons her mission--you know, the thing that has been fueling her since Ned's head was chopped off. It honestly didn't take her long to deliberate either. But, her face immediately lit up and she stopped her journey to KL to go north instead.

This episode just shows even more how incompetent Cersei is. Tyrion knew her plan down to the T. If Euron wasn't the rogue element in there, they would've still been easy sailing to accomplish their goals. Even then, Tyrion's plan was the better plan. Dany's family is known for madness and using dragons to torch people. Why not use familiar troops from known houses? That would put them to ease relatively speaking and make them open to embracing her. Conquering with dragons won't be a good look.

I actually wasn't annoyed by Sansa this week because he position and outrage was totally appropriate. I just don't know how well Sansa as his regent bodes well for Jon. But, I'm glad Jon stuck to his guns because he is the only one who understands the seriousness of the situation in that room minus Davos. Which also reminds me: do we still believe Jon is sexist??? Furthermore, I think people are confusing listening to with following suggestions/advice. Jon LISTENS to many, but he doesn't always follow their suggestions. Seriously speaking, why would he listen to Sansa in this situation or ANYONE telling him not to meet with Dany? He not only NEEDS her dragons, he NEEDS access to Dragonstone for dragon glass to kill the WW. Unless he meets with her, Dany's not going to acquiesce. And, it doesn't matter if Jon spoke with Sansa in private, Sansa clearly believes that Cersei is the bigger threat. Jon knows better and doesn't have the time to argue. So, Jon LISTENS to them, but he doesn't follow their suggestions, which is understandable in his case.

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The one thing that Sansa can have some confidence in is that Jon will never force her to marry against her will. Not after what she's been through. He's promised to protect her and he's already shown that he won't stand for LittleDick putting the moves on her. And as king as her oldest living male relative, he's got the right to refuse any proposals for her. She can't marry without his say so.

Like I said in a post prior to the one you are replying, Jon (and Bran) would never force Sansa to marry against her will, IMO. What I pointed to @GrailKing is that he is the king and the ruler or House Stark. If he wanted, he could arrange a marriage for her, the same way he could reffuse. Sansa's free will goes as far as Cersei, Myrcella, Dany, Catelyn´s.

 

4 hours ago, doram said:

Good thing that having undergone the trauma of being forced into an unwanted marriage where she was constantly raped, Dany won't be in such a hurry to do the same thing to another woman who survived a similar experience. I daresay that Dany has a far better understanding than Jon of what Sansa has gone through. 

Says who? Dany kicked Daario to curb saying that once she was Queen of Westeros she herself would need marry in order to make alliances, alliances she would need  to rule. What makes you think that, if needed, she wouldn't make Sansa  marry someone in order to establish new bonds/ties betweens the house? 

And of course any woman understand better than a man what Sansa went through. 

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Did anyone think that the reaction of the North hearing about Dragons was rather underwhelming? These magical creatures that have not been around for hundreds of years.

I think they believe in the dragons in the same theoretical way they believe they WW.

Some thoughts on the episode:

I really really really enjoyed Arya's scenes. Maisie did a fantastic job with wasn't exactly first class material and she delivered it: from her casual way to greet Hot Pie, the way her face changed when she heard Jon won BoB, was KITN and Winterfeel was free of the Boltons, and then being scared when the wolves came and, of course, seeing Nymeria.

I also enjoyed a lot the scene with the Lords in Winterfell.  Sansa didn't sound like a petulant brat, but genuinely concerned about the Targaryen threat and Jon's safety, and I'm crediting this way more to Sophie's acting than the writing, which, again, is not stellar.  One of the hardest things to convey, IMO, is suprise, and she nailed it when Jon told Sansa she was going to be in charge while he is way. Idon't think Kit is a particularly strong actor, but he sells Jon really really well. When Lyanna said "Winter is here, your Grace", and he turned, and looked at her, just right before he started his "I never wanted to be king" little speech, it was evident how weary he feels, with the weight of the the world on his shoulders, and that continued until his last word. Overall, and it is worth saying since we had this kind of scene two weeks in a row, this time they managed to achieve a better tone. Like they smoothed out the rough edges. Even Lyanna was better.

Euron is insane, and I can't decide if it is the good kind of insane or the bad one. We sure he is not on steroids?

The battle scenes were awesome, and after reading 8 pages of people with way more understanding about naval battles and Westeros geography than me, I'm going to accept that Yara couldn't have seen Euron coming or that nobody would have seen his ships. It is not like they have radars, right? I feel bad for Yara, but Ellaria can die. I hope they don't drag her death for long. Except for Oberyn and the little we saw of Doran, what a waste of time Dorne turned out to be.

Alife Allen is a stupendous actor. Theon is pathetic, has always been pathetic - with a couple of good moments here and there.  He would never save Yara, even if he could - and he did not. I was sure he would bol.t But Alfie deserves all the awards and praises for making us understand that.

Olenna and Ellaria are two hypocrites. Blah blah blah the Lannisters are evil, blah blah blah. One killed her own kin and an innocent girl, the other killed Joffrey and framed Tyrion and Sansa without thinking twice. You know what that meeting needed? A good verbal figthing/smackdown like some in families during Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Loved the Misandei and GW scene. All the technical details aside, it is nice to see the show giving them their own story other than being part of Dany's story. It is nice that they love more than her - not sure if I'm explaining this right.

That Varys/Dany scene should have been done last season. Honestly, this scene was sort of flat for me. I didn't enjoy Peter or Emilia's acting, and I liked onçy part of Conleth Hill's delivery of his lines.

I thought I was going to hate Sam/Jorah's scene, but I loved them. When Sam talked about Jeor Mormont and how he was there when he died, did you notice the small in Ian Glein's face? Does Jorah know his father is dead? 

But let me ask something. Shouldn't Jorah have passed from shock? He was skinned alive.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Good thing that having undergone the trauma of being forced into an unwanted marriage where she was constantly raped, Dany won't be in such a hurry to do the same thing to another woman who survived a similar experience. I daresay that Dany has a far better understanding than Jon of what Sansa has gone through.

Not sure you were trying to quote me and it went wrong, but you've said this and my reply is the same:

 Dany kicked Daario to curb saying that once she was Queen of Westeros she herself would need marry in order to make alliances, alliances she would need  to rule. What makes you think that, if needed, she wouldn't make Sansa  marry someone in order to establish new bonds/ties betweens the house? 

And of course any woman understand better than a man what Sansa went through. 

[Oscirus]

I'm pretty sure that Sansa would be under Tyrion protection so she likely wouldn't have to worry about being married off elsewhere.

 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

On the other hand, I'm eternally disappointed as to how they handled the whole Sand Snake/Dorne story in this show. You can tell the people behind the scenes never really cared about them, and just tried to get through their plot as quickly as possible, even if it meant every character had to be either a psycho or a nonentity.

It's like they struck gold with oberon, tried to create female versions of him,  when that failed, they just scrapped the story line. Pity, Dorne's past and motivations were actually intriguing.

 

3 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

forgotten that there he sabotaged Rhaegar either, because despite being pretty irresponsible in love, Rhaegar would still have been a better king than Aerys OR Robert. 

No he wouldn't have. Rhaegar's the apple headed moron who plunged this kingdom into a civil war because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants. I really fear what he would've down with real power.

This episode was interesting in the way it handle class differences. As we so both Oleanna and Ellaria basically refer to the common people as cannon fodder. Die in the middle of a war? O well, should've been living elsewhere.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Not sure you were trying to quote me and it went wrong, but you've said this and my reply is the same:

 Dany kicked Daario to curb saying that once she was Queen of Westeros she herself would need marry in order to make alliances, alliances she would need  to rule. What makes you think that, if needed, she wouldn't make Sansa  marry someone in order to establish new bonds/ties betweens the house? 

And of course any woman understand better than a man what Sansa went through. 

I think the point is that if peace were at stake Dany wouldn't spare another woman something she's willing to do herself. Dany's been through some hell with the marriage by obligation thing, but she's willing to marry a stranger again if needed for peace. I don't think she'd expect less from a subject. Probably she'd be okay with applying similar precautions as she would to her own suitors; no outright monsters, a baseline level of decency, but if it was for establishing peace in HER kingdom? She's the dragon. Anyone who doubts may recall how she ordered what's-his-name into a marriage he patently didn't want with her (IIRC, after dragon roasting one of his friends in front of him).

Edited July 25, 2017 by screamin

[Francie]

8 hours ago, Neurochick said:

 

Disturbing that so many here rejoiced at the death of two female characters, sure they were Sand Snakes and boring but still, at least they weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

They were not targeted for death because they were women. They were not attacked because they were women. The violence perpetrated against them was not sexualized.  And it was not perpetrated against them because they were women. They were killed because they engaged in battle themselves.

So I have no qualms about being happy they are dead.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 7/23/2017 at 11:59 PM, GrailKing said:

Almost done with the rewatch, but I want to say this since I missed saying it before.
I'm more convinced now, that wee are watching,reading Samwell Tarlay's  A Song of Ice and Fire.

I know it won't happen, but I want the entire series to end with the White Walkers having conquered everything and the final scene being WWs surrounding a cottage half-buried in snow where the camera moves in to reveal Samwell writing the final lines of history just as the door is broken in...

[mac123x]

8 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Disturbing that so many here rejoiced at the death of two female characters, sure they were Sand Snakes and boring but still, at least they weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

My dislike of the characters and happiness at their demise has nothing to do with their sex.  They were poorly written characters, especially considering how interesting their book counterparts are.  The entire Dorne story line was a travesty that hopefully is almost at an end.

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Dany managed to survive the Dothraki, stop the rape of slaves and convinced Khal Drogo to invade Westeros for her. Without her dragons or magic. She did this after getting sold to the Dothraki like chattel and being forcefully married off. She was not married to someone like Tyrion who did not rape his bride. She did not have someone like the Hound to protect her or LF to get her away from danger or a Stark name to keep her alive. Rather, people were trying to kill her because of her name. Despite all that, instead of whining about how much her life sucked and expecting other people to help her, she took the initiative to improve her own life. She hatched those eggs. She made the decisions on her advisers. She provided the tactical strategy to take Astapor and Yunkai. There was nothing magical about all that.

She's managed to get more done than most characters in the series. But yes, let's discount all that because magic.

Yeah, but do they really believe it? Like they knew about the WW, but did not seem to believe it was all real until Jon tells them. I doubt they think it's real even now considering their rather lackluster reaction to the threat. 

As mentioned above, everyone's reaction to all the magical stuff on the show seems very underwhelming. Considering the whole point is that the politics and treachery has been important because no one believes in the magic, but now that the magic is really here, we should be seeing shock and disbelief - but everyone is like oh...okay.

Have we ever heard any mention of Jon's death and rebirth to the Northern houses?  Would they accept it not having seen it?

I've been surprised that hasn't really been any type of narrative in the hall at Winterfell this season.

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

There's nothing in Dany's pattern of behaviour that indicates that she'll force any other woman into an unwanted marriage. Her being willing to enter a contract in Mereen actually proves it because that was a situation that she completely controlled. ...

Of course, what makes the whole discussion even more ridiculous is that this is something that hasn't happened and already people feel so certain that it can only go one way, and that's another reason to call Dany evil. That Robb did the same thing to Arya and Ned did the same to Sansa and that Cat and Ned the closest thing the show has to an OTP were wed under the same circumstances is completely ignored in favour of making this out as some heinous evil that only Dany is "low" enough to stoop to

My point in bringing up the poor, long-dead guy she forced into marriage after the traumatizing experience of watching her burn his peer in front of him is to show that she IS perfectly capable of forcing a fairly sympathetic character into an absolutely unwanted (with good reason) marriage for the sake of peace in her kingdom. To state that she would be unwilling to do to a woman what she did to a man for the sake of peace is to assume facts not in evidence.

And no,I'm not calling Dany a monster in saying so. Doing something for the sake of peace is a lot better motivation than most rulers have had on this show.

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Ugh, Euron, what a pig.

Disturbing that so many here rejoiced at the death of two female characters, sure they were Sand Snakes and boring but still, at least they weren't blonde like most of the women in this show .  

Oh right, they killed Cercei's daughter, who I never cared about anyway, I guess that's justice for Cercei.

The fact they were non blonde females means I should have wanted more of the laughably ridiculous and boring characters?  No thanks.  Myrcella was expendable simply because she was blonde?  The only potential I saw in the character was actually the fact that Tyrion cared for her. 

Dorne was actually one of the kingdoms I was looking forward to on the show, and the potential of what the Sand Snakes might be.  Dorne in the books both intrigued and confused me.  I was looking forward to having faces to help me keep track of who's who.  The farce of the Dorne storyline was such a letdown.  It's not the actresses, it's solely on the writers -- and I can't tell if they're blonde, bald or any variation.

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I think it's more lately that Dany's arc has been "and the dragons." Dany's season 1 arc was my favorite of the entire series. But since the dragons hatched, they have been used quite a bit as a crutch for her storyline. I mean I suppose it makes sense. Fucking DRAGONS, you know? But it also gets to the point where they're not used properly, like why not just drag out the bloody dragons to attack King's Landing? Because women and children...and we can't afford the CGI in this episode.

Most screen adaptations suffer in their capacity to flesh out the details on the screen the way they are on the page.  It's no surprise that something this intricate compromises a lot in order to get anything to the screen.  In my dream world we would have had plenty of wolf adventures along the way -- and be getting ready for a wolves banquet in not many more episodes. 

[darkestboy]

Way better than the opening episode.

I loved the scene with Dany/Varys calling each other out along with Dany/Olenna's little moment in the episode as well.

Euron is crazy but in no way am I sad that two of the Sand Snakes are dead. Don't care if Ellaria dies but I'm hoping Yara survives and Theon rescues her at some point. Battle scene did look epic enough though.

Cersei playing on fear to get loyalty was totally expected and Qyburn giving her another advantage though. Something needs to be done with him.

Loved the Arya/Hot Pie/Nymeria scenes in this one, especially the latter one.

Littlefinger won't have to do much to further drive a wedge between Jon and Sansa I fear. 

Nice enough scene with Missandei and Grey Worm in this one too.

Was grossed out by Sam operating on Jorah though at least he was trying to help, 9/10

[FnkyChkn34]

9 hours ago, dr pepper said:

All are smoothed. They don't do things halfway in Westeros.

But the Unsullied aren't from Westeros, so...  yeah.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Her number 1 crime, being naive .

Sansa set Ramsay's dogs loose to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair.  Justified or not, she initiated the gruesome death of another person.  Hardly little white innocence.  Hardly naive.  

[Katsullivan]

53 minutes ago, screamin said:

My point in bringing up the poor, long-dead guy she forced into marriage after the traumatizing experience of watching her burn his peer in front of him is to show that she IS perfectly capable of forcing a fairly sympathetic character into an absolutely unwanted (with good reason) marriage for the sake of peace in her kingdom. To state that she would be unwilling to do to a woman what she did to a man for the sake of peace is to assume facts not in evidence.

And no,I'm not calling Dany a monster in saying so. Doing something for the sake of peace is a lot better motivation than most rulers have had on this show.

His name was Hizdahr, not "poor dead guy". 

He was living in a slave state, a member of the ruling class. The only thing that was particularly traumatising about watching his peer be executed was knowing that the same kind of torture that his ilk had inflicted on generations of slaves could easily be done on him. The show drastically changed the circumstances of the marriage and even his own character and involvement with the Sons of Harpy. But concluding that Dany forced the marriage because she proposed it, is still a leap.

And no, women and men in this world are not equal and do not have equal rights under marriage contracts (except maybe in Dorne). Case in point - Tyrion and Sansa were both forced into an unwilling marriage, but where does audience sympathy lie the most? I don't see the logic in acting that Dany or anyone else, would consider them equivalent circumstances. 

And the bottom line is that there's a lot of debate on a far-fetched hypothetical situation on just how monstrously Dany will force a powerless Sansa into marriage. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, taurusrose said:

Sansa set Ramsay's dogs loose to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair.  Justified or not, she initiated the gruesome death of another person.  Hardly little white innocence.  Hardly naive.  

Pretty difficult to go through what she did at the hands of Ramsey and remain naive about him, or the fact that he hadn't done much worse to so many -- including his newborn brother! 

[Katsullivan]

5 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa set Ramsay's dogs loose to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair.  Justified or not, she initiated the gruesome death of another person.  Hardly little white innocence.  Hardly naive.  

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Pretty difficult to go through what she did at the hands of Ramsey and remain naive about him, or the fact that he hadn't done much worse to so many -- including his newborn brother! 

So? Wasn't the argument against Dany's crucifixion of the masters in retaliation for their crucifixion of the slaves was that she was "no better" and unusually cruel adn vindictive for murder and mutilation? The same applies or should apply to Sansa. 

And for the record, I think Sansa's execution of Ramsay was a "Fuck yeah!" moment. The bastard deserved it. I just don't understand how one woman gets glorified for the same action that another woman is considered insane for doing. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

For all the talk of Dany being cruel and mad, most people tend to overlook this little incident that Sansa enacted. 

Who here absolutely believes they could go through what Sansa did with Ramsey and not want to make sure he was truly, most sincerely dead -- and see to it that it was done in such a fitting way?

[Hana Chan]

Being a ruler often means having to make decisions that are difficult and might make people unhappy. With the exception of Jon, no one seeking that kind of power in this universe are completely altruistic. Dany is seeing to regain the throne that she feels is hers by right. Cersi wants it as a big "fuck you" to the universe. Sansa wants it because she feels it is her right (as the true born Stark) and to protect herself. Right now, Jon is the only one who holds that kind of power and it isn't about himself at all. For Jon, being king continues to boil down to preparing the North (and the rest of the seven kingdoms) for the coming war against the WW. And here's the kicker... if Jon thought that Sansa being QITN would facilitate that effort better than him being in charge, he would quit in a heartbeat. 

One thing that I really picked up on during his discussion with the northern lords about meeting with Dany was his complete lack of royal airs. He wasn't sitting up at the high table (his seat of power) dictating down to them. He stood on the floor amongst them, as one of them, listened to their concerns and explained why he was making the decision that he was. He wasn't dictating, but treating them respectfully. It was a marked contrast to Cersi (who is always sitting on her throne) and even Dany in a lot of ways. 

[Katsullivan]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Who here absolutely believes they could go through what Sansa did with Ramsey and not want to make sure he was truly, most sincerely dead -- and see to it that it was done in such a fitting way?

Certainly not I. (See my edited post). But I don't see how Sansa feeling rage at her abuser is considered more valid than Dany feeling rage at the abusers and murderers of innocent children. 

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It was a marked contrast to Cersi (who is always sitting on her throne) and even Dany in a lot of ways. 

Dany never stands on a throne dictating to her Council. She was standing with the rest of her allies in the war room and listening. The only person sitting in that room was Olenna and when Dany wanted to talk to her one-on-one, she sat beside her. And we see her do this all the time when she's taking council. When she's "ruling" over her subjects, she seats on her throne as is appropriate. There's actually a consistent theme of Dany bypassing thrones - from her vision in season 2, to her arrival at Dragonstone - to get down to the business of the day.

This is not the first time that aspects of Dany that are clearly shown are overlooked or replaced with something contrary. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

So? Wasn't the argument against Dany's crucifixion of the masters in retaliation for their crucifixion of the slaves was that she was "no better" and unusually cruel adn vindictive for murder and mutilation? The same applies or should apply to Sansa. 

I suppose that might answer my reply -- if I had ever made that indictment of Dany.

I do think there is a bit of a difference with the Sansa/Ramsay situation since he directly terrorized and brutalized her.  Theon is widely assumed to have PTSD.  The same applies or should apply to Sansa, no?

What if Jon had finished Ramsey off in the keep?  Justified to do so or vengeful madman?  IMO Sansa served up fitting justice for Ramsey.

[Katsullivan]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I suppose that might answer my reply -- if I had ever made that indictment of Dany.

You were responding to a statement I made about Dany being called mad for punishing the Masters in the same way that Sansa punished Ramsay:

Quote

For all the talk of Dany being cruel and mad, most people tend to overlook this little incident that Sansa enacted. 

If you weren't indicting Dany, then what were you implying?

 

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I do think there is a bit of a difference with the Sansa/Ramsay situation since he directly terrorized and brutalized her.  Theon is widely assumed to have PTSD.  The same applies or should apply to Sansa, no?

There is no difference.

Dany also has PTSD from living her entire life looking over her shoulder, being sold as a slave to the Dothraki and being raped for the first months of her marriage. She was mentally and physically tortured in a similar way to Sansa. So it's understandable that she has a berserk!button where slavery is concerned. 

Terrorism and brutality are basically what makes slavery work. 

As I said, I don't condemn or even disapprove of Sansa killing Ramsay. But if we're going to apply Geneva Conventions to Dany's actions, then we should extend the same to every character on the show. We can't at the same time be expected to go "hell yeah!" when a man is fed alive to wild dogs, but wring her hands in horror when the masters of a slave system are crucified the same way they just did to 60+ children. Either we accept that this is a brutal society, being led by traumatised children (Sansa and Dany) who are as much about vengeance as justice, or we condemn everyone in the same way. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Lady Iris]

I still can't get the visual of skinning Jorah's flesh transitioning into the crust of pot pie. Why'd you do that show? Why?

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Fair enough. There was a discussion earlier on this, so I guess I just drew conclusions.

 

Dany also has PTSD from living her entire life looking over her shoulder, being sold as a slave to the Dothraki and being raped for the first months of her marriage. She was mentally and physically tortured in a similar way to Sansa. So it's understandable that she has a berserk!button where slavery is concerned. 

Terrorism and brutality are basically what makes slavery work. 

As I said, I don't condemn or even disapprove of Sansa killing Ramsay. But if we're going to apply Geneva Conventions to Dany's actions, then we should extend the same to every character on the show. We can't at the same time be expected to go "hell yeah!" when a man is fed alive to wild dogs, but wring her hands in horror when the masters of a slave system are crucified the same way they just did to 60+ children. Either we accept that this is a brutal society, being run by traumatised children (Sansa and Dany) who are as much about vengeance as justice, or we condemn everyone in the same way. 

As I said, I'm not pecking at Dany.  I am fascinated to watch the "daughter of the Mad King" thread play out.  Dany is repeatedly reminded, and you can see the doubt behind her eyes at times, about her troubling heritage.  Personally I'm skeptical she's en route to follow that family tradition.  The main reason I can't see her venturing in that mad, cruel direction is simply based on one factor alone -- the single family member she grew up with was Viserys.  Dany wants no part of that,  period.

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

You were responding to a statement I made about Dany being called mad for punishing the Masters in the same way that Sansa punished Ramsay:

If you weren't indicting Dany, then what were you implying?

 

There is no difference.

Dany also has PTSD from living her entire life looking over her shoulder, being sold as a slave to the Dothraki and being raped for the first months of her marriage. She was mentally and physically tortured in a similar way to Sansa. So it's understandable that she has a berserk!button where slavery is concerned. 

Terrorism and brutality are basically what makes slavery work. 

As I said, I don't condemn or even disapprove of Sansa killing Ramsay. But if we're going to apply Geneva Conventions to Dany's actions, then we should extend the same to every character on the show. We can't at the same time be expected to go "hell yeah!" when a man is fed alive to wild dogs, but wring her hands in horror when the masters of a slave system are crucified the same way they just did to 60+ children. Either we accept that this is a brutal society, being led by traumatised children (Sansa and Dany) who are as much about vengeance as justice, or we condemn everyone in the same way. 

First, you keep editing while I'm still replying.  Second, I believe you are partially responding to me -- with a quote that didn't come from me. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

My point in bringing up the poor, long-dead guy she forced into marriage after the traumatizing experience of watching her burn his peer in front of him is to show that she IS perfectly capable of forcing a fairly sympathetic character into an absolutely unwanted (with good reason) marriage for the sake of peace in her kingdom. To state that she would be unwilling to do to a woman what she did to a man for the sake of peace is to assume facts not in evidence.

And no,I'm not calling Dany a monster in saying so. Doing something for the sake of peace is a lot better motivation than most rulers have had on this show.

Other than a 16 yr. old Tyrion, who married Tysha (where do whores go?.....totally omitted in the show, and one of Tyrion's main sources of bitterness against his father)....there is no one else I can think of in ASOIAF who has married "for love".  It's not a "thing" in Westeros.   All marriages are arranged marriages.  It's not cruel or anything else, and says nothing about the people who made the arrangements.  These were political marriages, done for the advancement of one's family, which oftentime in Westeros meant survival for the family.   

Tyrion & Sansa's wedding was forced on both parties.  But Tyrion, being a pragmatist, KNEW in his little black heart that Sansa was a PROPER wife for him, and he actually felt somewhat honored to be married to such a beautiful, innocent, young girl, with an impeccable pedigree.  sTyrion has stopped his whoring ways because he still feels married to Sansa, and I believe when he finally meets her again on the show, he'll introduce her as his "Lady Wife".

EDITED TO ADD:  Oh yeah, Robb Stark married "for love" (or honor, as the case may be).  Look what disastrous results that had.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Other than a 16 yr. old Tyrion, who married Tysha (where do whores go?.....totally omitted in the show, and one of Tyrion's main sources of bitterness against his father)....there is no one else I can think of in ASOIAF who has married "for love".  It's not a "thing" in Westeros.   All marriages are arranged marriages.  It's not cruel or anything else, and says nothing about the people who made the arrangements.  These were political marriages, done for the advancement of one's family, which oftentime in Westeros meant survival for the family.   

Tyrion & Sansa's wedding was forced on both parties.  But Tyrion, being a pragmatist, KNEW in his little black heart that Sansa was a PROPER wife for him, and he actually felt somewhat honored to be married to such a beautiful, innocent, young girl, with an impeccable pedigree.  sTyrion has stopped his whoring ways because he still feels married to Sansa, and I believe when he finally meets her again on the show, he'll introduce her as his "Lady Wife".

I agree with much of this -- and would take it a step further.  First, I do think we need to pause and see what revelations may come regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna before we count them out of the married for love sweepstakes.  There is the possibility Sam and Gilly wind up heading blissfully up the aisle as well.

Second, after all that's occurred I'm pretty certain Sansa would rate Tyrion highly as husband material on the Yelp, or some sort of Westerosi equivalent.  Put aside convincing anybody the White Walkers are coming -- can you imagine trying to convince the Starks of that pre-Kings Landing? 

[Blonde Gator]

23 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I still can't get the visual of skinning Jorah's flesh transitioning into the crust of pot pie. Why'd you do that show? Why?

Why?  Because they could.  It was a juvenile thing to do.  If the writers were trying to cause gag reactions in their viewers, they were successful. 

[Edith]

45 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

So? Wasn't the argument against Dany's crucifixion of the masters in retaliation for their crucifixion of the slaves was that she was "no better" and unusually cruel adn vindictive for murder and mutilation? The same applies or should apply to Sansa. 

And for the record, I think Sansa's execution of Ramsay was a "Fuck yeah!" moment. The bastard deserved it. I just don't understand how one woman gets glorified for the same action that another woman is considered insane for doing. 

Wait, isn't the point of Hizard when asking to buried his father, that him has not part in the crucifixion of the children and that was against of it?  Wasn't that conversation showing that Dany probably, definitely, killed innocents for a crime they did not commit?

The same thing happened again when she fed two masters to her dragons. And after season 6 we can totally say that those masters were definitely not behind the SOTH.

[Blonde Gator]

24 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I agree with much of this -- and would take it a step further.  First, I do think we need to pause and see what revelations may come regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna before we count them out of the married for love sweepstakes.  There is the possibility Sam and Gilly wind up heading blissfully up the aisle as well.

Second, after all that's occurred I'm pretty certain Sansa would rate Tyrion highly as husband material on the Yelp, or some sort of Westerosi equivalent.  Put aside convincing anybody the White Walkers are coming -- can you imagine trying to convince the Starks of that pre-Kings Landing? 

Excellent!  You've come up more examples for discussion.

I still have my suspicions about Rhaegar and Lyanna's motivations.  Somehow I get the inkling that it was neither rape, nor a grand love story.  I believe it's something else, but unless and until we get a book, we won't know.  (TV show doesn't count).  My take....Rhaegar became obsessed with the PTWP prophecy, to the point that he changed his way of life, going from a studious, scholarly, musical man of leisure, to a trained warrior "it seems I must be a soldier".   To that end, I think he also realized that he needed a third child, because "the dragon must have three heads".  Once Elia Martell had her 2nd child, she was told "no more children".  I think since she was Dornish, where the sexual mores are totally different from the rest of Westeros, she agreed that Rhaegar could have a second wife, because she loved her (arranged) husband.

We get to the Tourney at Harrenhall (THIS is a story I want to see done by HBO in great detail), which is the story of legendary proportions now.  Including the "Knight of the Laughing Tree" tale.  Lyanna Stark, or course, sticking up for Howland Reed.  And then all of the sexual tension floating around Ashara Dayne (Ned, Rickard, and even Barristan Selmy).  A very young LIttlefinger.  Everyone who was anyone was there.  Lyanna Stark, at that point, was not happy about her marriage contract with Robert Baratheon, who has apparently always been with a galactic man-whore.  I suspect she was willing to do anything to get out of that, including running away with Rhaegar, and bearing him a child to do so.  Perhaps she even loved him, or decided she would be able to....and she wouldn't be killed for marrying him, although her family would be furious, they'd get over it....after all, Rhaegar would someday become the ruler of the 7 Kingdoms, and the Targs practiced polygamy, so all's well that ends well, right?  Well....we know what happened, Robert's Rebellion. 

I don't know if Sam & Gilly will ever get married, he is, after all, a sworn brother of the Night's watch, but that doesn't negate your point in the least.  They, too, have flaunted all conventions, for love.  They'll stay together if they survive, because what's the purpose of continuing the Night Watch's vow of no families, after the Great War to Come?  Westeros is going to need all of the children it can muster.

Traditions and cultural mores can change in Westeros, but only after time, and only for a good reason.  I don't know about you, but I find it rather tedious that many people tend to want to apply today's standards to Westeros, which although somewhat based in history, but which is an adult fantasy story.    In fact, much of the history behind ASOIAF is based on the War of the Roses, which began to come to its conclusion after the Lancastrian commoner, Elizabeth Woodville, fell in love with the York king, Edward, and married him, resulting in great scandal and enmity at the time.

Lastly, Tyrion was "great" husband material, except for being a dwarf. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Blonde Gator
Forgot my fave...Tyrion

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

And the bottom line is that there's a lot of debate on a far-fetched hypothetical situation on just how monstrously Dany will force a powerless Sansa into marriage. 

Yeah. I am sure master player and no.1 political expert Sansa would be able to cleverly escape the clutches of idiot Jon and evil Dany. Why is there even a debate on this. And it looks like serial killer Arya and Bran are not even considered for arranged marriage.

Though to calm everyone's mind, if Jon bends the knee, he would be warden of the North - same as the 16 wardens who came before him. Looking at Westerosi history, the Targaryen kings have never interfered in matters of the North (Except for the NW) and the Starks have been free to marry whom they please and make alliances with whichever house they want. So I am not sure why people think that Dany is suddenly going to bother with all that now?  Dany has more important things to do than arranging marriages for the Starks.

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

One thing that I really picked up on during his discussion with the northern lords about meeting with Dany was his complete lack of royal airs. He wasn't sitting up at the high table (his seat of power) dictating down to them. He stood on the floor amongst them, as one of them, listened to their concerns and explained why he was making the decision that he was. He wasn't dictating, but treating them respectfully.

Kit Harington keeps playing Jon like some kind of kicked puppy. Come on Jon! Be more forceful! People listen to wolves, not puppies. If he had Ghost next to him, like Robb had Grey Wind, maybe he would not face a 'revolt'. Ghost can bite off two of Sansa's fingers and she would finally shut up.

Anyways, I am looking forward to Jon facing off with 'I was born to rule' Dany next episode!

Edited July 25, 2017 by anamika

[Katsullivan]

22 minutes ago, Edith said:

Wait, isn't the point of Hizard when asking to buried his father, that him has not part in the crucifixion of the children and that was against of it?  Wasn't that conversation showing that Dany probably, definitely, killed innocents for a crime they did not commit?

Regardless of how Hizdahr's dad voted (and we only have his own word on this, there's nothing in the books that supports this), he was ultimately responsible for the final decision because he was a member of the governing board of a slave system. He profited from it, and he was raised on it. Just because he had lines that he didn't cross doesn't mean that he wasn't OK with living in a society where people were routinely bought, sold and tortured worse than animals.

Although on a "meta" note, it's interesting that the show tried to paint this "slavery is not black-and-white" picture with Hizdahr's saintly father, and the old slave man that missed his little masters and was so eager to re-sell himself into slavery. It's almost as if D & D were gathering material for their new Confederacy show as far back as then. 

 

55 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

All marriages are arranged marriages.  It's not cruel or anything else, and says nothing about the people who made the arrangements.  These were political marriages, done for the advancement of one's family, which oftentime in Westeros meant survival for the family.   

If anything, a politically astute Sansa would be the one to propose an arranged marriage for herself. She'd understand, or she should understand better than Dany or Jon which unions are more strategic. She'd be involved because she'd want to make sure that she gets not only a partner she can tolerate, but also the best possible alliance for the North. If Dany does end up as Queen of the 7 Kingdoms with Jon as her husband, Sansa more than anyone should understand how important it is to use that connection to the crown to strengthen the House of Stark. Her entire tragedy was based on her being the heir apparent of a powerful house but not having any actual power of her own, therefore making her a pawn. 

 

19 minutes ago, anamika said:

Kit Harington keeps playing Jon like some kind of kicked puppy.

I think it's that scar on his cheek that makes it look like he's perpetually crying. :) He looked miserable even when he was executing Jonas.

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I am fascinated to watch the "daughter of the Mad King" thread play out.

I just hope when the time comes, people will remember that Jon is the "grandson of the Mad King". 

[Tikichick]

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

Kit Harington keeps playing Jon like some kind of kicked puppy.

 

To be fair to Kit Harrington, remember he is playing a character who was introduced to us in book and show both as a wolf who accepted his position to the degree he had no expectation of considering himself worthy of a wolf pup -- until there happened to be a spare, a damaged runt no less.  Which he accepted as his good fortune and with complete satisfaction.

[VCRTracking]

The Blindwave reactors pointed out the way Arya was eating was like the Hound and I totally see that now!

I like the Tweets joking that Theon will be picked up by Gendry who's still rowing that boat to King's Landing!

I will give 100 emoji claps to this episode's editor because the two transitions, Grey Worm and Missandei having sex and the Arch Maester putting his hand between the two books and Sam removing the greyscale from Jorah with all that gross pus and cutting to the fork digging into the pie was awesomel.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa set Ramsay's dogs loose to eat him alive while he was tied to a chair.  Justified or not, she initiated the gruesome death of another person.  Hardly little white innocence.  Hardly naive.  

Sansa never went inside, whatever happened happened off screen.

At the Parlay; when Ramsey was asked by Sansa about Rickon and Shaggy's head was thrown down and Sansa gave " your going to die tomorrow Lord Bolton; sleep well " she takes off, Ramsey commences to taunt the others with his dogs.

Sansa and LF arrive with the KOTV.

Jon is beating him to a pulp, Sansa finds where Jon had him put ( it's still day light no snow ) we cut to a night time scene Sansa is ON THE OUTSIDE of the kennel, they talk, Sansa gives your going to disappear speech , Ramsey- My hounds will never harm me. the end.

Many people contend Sansa opened the Kennel doors and maybe, but; when?

The kennels were already opened prior, who's brave enough or foolish enough to do that? 

I don't think Jon,Sansa or anyone in their crew would be so foolish.

So far even into this season and books Sansa has shown any signs of physical acts of violence ( I admit she could, like anyone else ).

Did she or Jon have the Kennel master do it ( his daughter died )?

OR is the person as I contend did it: Ramsey Bolton himself; he was so cock sure he win that day he may have ( I think he did ) open those pens himself prior to the battle.

It would be like GRRM to punish you with your own weapons.

Ned-Ice

Robb- broken vow

Cat- slits an innocence throat.

Roose - Betrayal

Sansa looked into the man's eyes watched him die ( like Ned said to Bran ) she or Jon could have given the order to open the kennel, I don't think they put one of their own people in harms way for it.

They could have found the Kennel master and have him do it?

Or Ramsey did it prior to the battle so sure he win, Sansa,LF and the NOTV ruined that day.

 

Side note: I forgot to add that Sansa never wildfire a religious house, or taken faces to kill people.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by GrailKing
NOTV for KOTV

[shockermolar]

Quote

Lastly, is it also wrong that I want Sean Bean to get his Ned statue when the show is over? 

{deep sigh} OMG that statue. I literally turned to my teenage son and said, "yes, of COURSE a statue was hand carved by a master artisan to PERFECTLY mimic Ned Stark's features and preside over his bones in the family crypt some time between Theon and the Iron Born KILLING everyone at Winterfell, it being burned down, the Boltons taking it and living there for years, and the Starks re-taking it since the Battle of the Bastards, which apparently happened mere weeks ago in show time. I'm sure getting that sculptor there was priority #1 for absolutely NO ONE THAT HAS BEEN THERE SINCE HE DIED!"  Yes. I was yelling. Stupid makes me yell.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I know it won't happen, but I want the entire series to end with the White Walkers having conquered everything and the final scene being WWs surrounding a cottage half-buried in snow where the camera moves in to reveal Samwell writing the final lines of history just as the door is broken in...

Yeah, you're correct it won't, GRRM said bitter sweet, not bitter,not sweet and not apocalyptic. 

Also; I DON"T WANT ANY MORE STARKS DEAD and definitely NOT SAMWELL (AKA GRRM ) or GILLY (AKA PARIS ).

 

But George hurry, you and I are a year apart in age "Write Like the Wind George "

[benteen]

Jon has been getting stronger as king but I agree, stop with the kicked puppy look.  Book Jon might have made some bad choices as Night's Watch commander but he was no kicked puppy.

[Tikichick]

20 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I just hope when the time comes, people will remember that Jon is the "grandson of the Mad King". 

I think I understand now.  Any "criticism" of Dany, real or perceived, must be met with criticism designed to take out another character.  

You tidily snipped that out of the rest of my comments about Dany, comments in which I said I do not buy into the notion she's going to follow in dear old dad's shoes.

I will say that I absolutely don't believe Jon is likely to follow the Mad King's path, if for nothing else than for all intents and purposes he's a Stark.  The most Targaryen trait about him thus far may just be found in Ghost's pelt.   None of that has a single thing to do with Danerys.

I do think we have an obvious adherent to the path of mayhem and destruction chosen by the Mad King currently clinging very tightly to a throne, bloodied hands as a consequence be damned.

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Other than a 16 yr. old Tyrion, who married Tysha (where do whores go?.....totally omitted in the show, and one of Tyrion's main sources of bitterness against his father)....there is no one else I can think of in ASOIAF who has married "for love".  It's not a "thing" in Westeros.

That's pretty typical in royal marriages throughout history. Almost none were purely for romantic reasons and the strategic value of the union was always the primary consideration. If you were very, very lucky, you would grow to love your partner in a genuine way (the way Queen Victoria loved Albert). But for the most part, marriages were about two things - forging alliances and perpetuating the bloodlines. Women had even less say in who the were married to, and their happiness was almost never considered in any meaningful way. Being married as a royal or a nobel was about fulfilling your duty, not your personal satisfaction. History is chock full of royal spouses that had politically successful marriages and who absolutely detested one another. Marrying purely for love is a fairly modern convention.

[Edith]

30 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Regardless of how Hizdahr's dad voted (and we only have his own word on this, there's nothing in the books that supports this), he was ultimately responsible for the final decision because he was a member of the governing board of a slave system. He profited from it, and he was raised on it. Just because he had lines that he didn't cross doesn't mean that he wasn't OK with living in a society where people were routinely bought, sold and tortured worse than animals.

But those slavers were punished for a specific crime, the crucifixion of the children not because they were slavers. So in that case and for that crime not all of them were responsible.

She didn't punished the slavers, she abolished slavering and she commanded them to live under her new world.

The same thing she did with the Dothraki. They had obviously rape, sack and slave many cities before she said no more. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Edith

[benteen]

Jon has never made a strong case against fighting the White Walkers, at least verbally.  He kind of just expects everyone to just do it.