S05.E07: Gag or Throttle

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

As Westmoreland demands a more aggressive action on Kira, and Sarah fights to save her daughter, Rachel finds a dark secret that makes her question her place within Neolution. Elsewhere: Cosima returns with a vital clue to Westmoreland's true identity.

Promo:

Edited July 16, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[possibilities]

This was the first time I actually felt for Rachel.

By contrast, I was really disappointed in the way they played Allison's return.

[mjc570]

Wow, that was brutal.  I knew the show would never let Kira's eggs be harvested, but I didn't know how she wold be rescued.  It was great to see Art again.  It was even better to see Matt Frewer.  Is Michelle Forbes going to make an appearance? (Fingers crossed)

Whoever does the wigs on this show should be replaced - unless Teen-Rachel and Allison's wigs were supposed to be obvious? 

I have to admit, I really loved Rachel's huge martini glass. 

[margol29]

I want Allison back! Allison 2.0 does not cut it.

[Glade]

Rachel's ending was suitably pitch-black to match her character, which could never truly be redeemed.  It irked me when Sarah insisted that PT had kept Rachel's family from her...I thought the story was that Ethan and Susan both faked their own deaths and went into hiding, seperately, and without giving many fucks for what happened to Rachel as a result. 

But now that we have the Big Bad Villian introduced, I guess he can take 100% of the blame for everything and everyone else is absolved of moral complexity?  No, that doesn't really work for me; even Rachel tried to kill Sarah (and all of clone club) long before that eye was implanted.  So, I'm glad that she is finally dead this time and Kira is also safe.

It's an interesting parallel they made between the blue-haired street musician clone that Rachel killed and the new Alison 2.0 who is basically channeling her, but it doesn't make any actual sense for the character, so no thanks.  

[thuganomics85]

Sweet, they found a way to bring Dr. Leekie back via flashbacks!  Although, Matt Frewer with hair felt very unnatural.

Basically a Rachel-centric episode, as she finally realizes the extent "Westmoreland" will go to get what he wants and doesn't even mind using her for his own gains, by suddenly making her getting examined by Cody against her will, and even finding out that her new eye was actually a camera, for him to spy on her and whatever she sees.  So, she basically turns on him and gets Kira out of Dyad and back to Sarah, Mrs. S., and Art.  Oh, and then she breaks a martini glass and uses the sharpe in to rip her fucking eye out!  That was brutal to watch.  Not sure what is going to happen with her now.

Nice to see Cosima back on the mainland and her reunion with Scott!

Alison's back!  Well.... kind of.  She's now got a hilariously bad new haircut (this show is usually great with wigs, but this one was pretty fake-looking), a tattoo, and is now tossing aside all of her old stuff, and trying to start over.  Kind of a weird development for a show that is going to be ending after three episodes.  But I did love Donnie's brief flinch when she picked up the glue gun.  Ah, memories!

Looks like Ira died with Susan, but now Mark is back into the picture and Cody is going to use him to find Helena?  I'm pretty sure that hooded girl that met Helena was Mark's wife, right?

[LaMamaDeGatas]

Whoa.  Extremely heavy episode.  Rachel's story arc ending up here isn't surprising.  She would show subtle glimmers of humanity throughout the show's history so it wasn't really a surprise to me when she let Kira go.  That being said, I think it was wonderfully done.  

The new Allison is a little jarring...and grating...but, so was the original Allison. 
She was wound far too tight to ever truly be happy.  I doubt Allison 2.0 will stay exactly as she is for long.  

Anyway, that episode was so intense I had to come online and find a place to post about it. :P

I re-watched the first 4 season recently and...where the heck is Charlotte's mother?  Are Cosima and Delphine going to raise her now?   Sarah met Charlotte and her mother at the end of season 3 and then suddenly, Charlotte lives with Susan Duncan  on the island and say to Rachel,  "Susan says you are going to be my new Mom."   What happened to the old one?!  LOL!   Charlotte's mother seemed to really love her...so why would she just give her to Susan?  That's really been bugging me.  That and the fact that not much time is supposed to have passed between each season but Kira was growing like its been years between seasons, which it actually has been.  I'm not sure how they would have remedied that.  

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, Glade said:

Rachel's ending was suitably pitch-black to match her character, which could never truly be redeemed.  It irked me when Sarah insisted that PT had kept Rachel's family from her...I thought the story was that Ethan and Susan both faked their own deaths and went into hiding, seperately, and without giving many fucks for what happened to Rachel as a result. 

But now that we have the Big Bad Villian introduced, I guess he can take 100% of the blame for everything and everyone else is absolved of moral complexity?  No, that doesn't really work for me; even Rachel tried to kill Sarah (and all of clone club) long before that eye was implanted.  So, I'm glad that she is finally dead this time and Kira is also safe.

It's an interesting parallel they made between the blue-haired street musician clone that Rachel killed and the new Alison 2.0 who is basically channeling her, but it doesn't make any actual sense for the character, so no thanks.  

Pretty sure Rachel's alive.

[LaMamaDeGatas]

49 minutes ago, AftermathTV said:

What an explosion of my senses. I'm still reeling. The various stages of Rachel. Only the Helena flashback palooza might be able to top this.

 

I was thinking the same thing!  I want to see little Helena and Little Cosima before the end

<3

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Basically a Rachel-centric episode, as she finally realizes the extent "Westmoreland" will go to get what he wants and doesn't even mind using her for his own gains, by suddenly making her getting examined by Cody against her will, and even finding out that her new eye was actually a camera, for him to spy on her and whatever she sees.  So, she basically turns on him and gets Kira out of Dyad and back to Sarah, Mrs. S., and Art.  Oh, and then she breaks a martini glass and uses the sharpe in to rip her fucking eye out!  That was brutal to watch.  Not sure what is going to happen with her now.

All of this is true, but I think this episode went sooo beyond that. I thought it was superb, I'm really surprised by how well they were able to "explain" Rachel so thoroughly and in such a powerful way with so little time.

I've always loved Rachel because I've always found her deliciously layered because of her background and how it shaped who she is. I had given up hope that they would continue to explore her in an in depth way because it seemed like they had just made her a bad guy who was bound to die, and that's it. So I loved this episode.

We see how, as a child, she was made into some sort of product that they showcased to charm investors or something. We see how she pretends to be well spoken and in control, while hidden from everyone's sight she fidgets nervously with her hands. She's only a child. I thought it was really interesting how as an adult she still has the same nervous tick with her hands. Is her cold and in control persona still a facade, to a degree? Didn't see that coming.

We see her absolute lack of autonomy as Leekie (or however it's spelled, lol) and the others just examine her and experiment on her with no care about her thoughts or feelings. She knows she's a clone, she knows others are getting sick, yet she has no power to decide anything and they barely listen to her. Rachel's entire personality is born out of that lack of control and autonomy, and her fight all along has been to become powerful and become free, and an actual person. Which is why her scene with Coady was so powerful, to me. She sold out her mother and her sisters in exchange for "emancipation", yet there she was again, on an examination table without having a say about it... trying to pull down her gown to maintain some modesty, having to ask to be left alone so she can have some privacy to clean herself off after being prodded, her tag number still attached to her name on the computer screen. No one saw Rachel as a person. Not Leekie, who seemed to see the dead musician clone more like a person than he did Rachel. Not Susan, who seemed to care more about all the Ledas but her. Not any of the scientists, like Coady, who forgot that she was even a person while they prodded and examined and went off excitedly to think about what the results meant, while she was left alone and scared, without any kindness bestowed on her or any care about her thoughts, feelings and fears. Then both Leekie and Susan had the gall to be appalled because she was "a monster".

"Why don't you run away?" "Where would I go?"

"Who hurt you, Rachel?" "All of them."

Oh man. Fantastic.

PT knew which buttons to push and tricked her into believing that she was a person and would be treated like such. He even called her daughter. And during this episode her fantasy was destroyed. They still see her as a subject/experiment with a tag number. They still spy on her and monitor her. PT is a total fraud. And she sees herself in Kyra. She always had a soft spot for the girls, for the obvious reasons, yet before her thirst  for power and autonomy led her to be willing to do what it took to get what she wanted and not take their side. But that now she knows that's a lie she saves Kyra, whose bracelet she did wear. I wonder if there was a cut scene where she put it on.

The scene with the eye was super gross, but now she's free! I'm curious to see what's awaiting her. I've always wanted her to join the others for real, we'll see.

BBC America said the next episode is so shocking that they can't show anything, so there was no promo. My first thought was that they will kill someone, possibly Mrs. S. I can't think of anyone else whose death could be so shocking. Sarah has to make it till the end and the other clones recently got their own episodes with their own resolutions, and I think it would be weird to kill one of them after that. We'll see.

31 minutes ago, LaMamaDeGatas said:

 I re-watched the first 4 season recently and...where the heck is Charlotte's mother?  Are Cosima and Delphine going to raise her now?   Sarah met Charlotte and her mother at the end of season 3 and then suddenly, Charlotte lives with Susan Duncan  on the island and say to Rachel,  "Susan says you are going to be my new Mom."   What happened to the old one?!  LOL!   Charlotte's mother seemed to really love her...so why would she just give her to Susan?  That's really been bugging me.  That and the fact that not much time is supposed to have passed between each season but Kira was growing like its been years between seasons, which it actually has been.  I'm not sure how they would have remedied that.  

I think it's been implied that she's dead. MK, for example, had an X across her photo during one of her episodes. But they never explained what exactly happened.

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, AftermathTV said:

What an explosion of my senses. I'm still reeling. The various stages of Rachel. Only the Helena flashback palooza might be able to top this.

Maybe next episode will be Helena's? I think we're only missing Sarah and her. And I have this gut feeling that Mrs. S will die next week and the week after that we'll have Sarah's episode, right before the finale. Or something like that.

[Ravenya003]

Whoa, excellent stuff. I've been a little ho-hum about this season, but they certainly brought it this week. Everyone else has pretty much nailed the nuances of Rachel's character: it's no wonder she is what she is. 

Honestly though my favourite bit was when Kira saw Rachel picking her nails and said: "my mum does that." Now, Kira may have been telling the truth, or the comment may have been part of her "hustle" (because Kira was laying it on thick with the friendship bracelet and so on) but it was a genius move, and taps right back into the "nature vs nurture" part of the show. Whether Rachel likes it or not, Sarah is her sister. They come from the same source, and Kira's simple observation that they share a habit drove that straight home.

I'm glad they gave time and space to Cosima/Scott's reunion, and Charlotte looked so cute on the bed with the blanket and the hot drink. Like others, I'm wondering where she's going to end up. With Susan dead and Rachel disinterested, who's gonna raise her? (As has been pointed out, Marion was killed off-screen a couple of seasons ago).

Nice that they found a way to reintroduce Rachel's cybernetic eye, and Westmoreland using it to spy on her was suitably creepy. Honestly though, couldn't watch the scene in which she digs it out without squinting. 

Leekie in flashbacks and a return from Mark/Gracie? They're clearly bringing back what cast they can before the final credits roll. Still holding out hope we'll see Cal one more time. 

Overall, a fantastic episode. I feel like the show is back on track.

[holly4755]

I have to say I did not understand the scene with the pad until she put on her blinder.  Just like I could not see what she was doing with her phone hiding it from her other eye.  Pretty amazing episode. It had not occurred to me that they needed to kill kira to access all her parts, but that indeed seemed to be what they were going to do, just keep her in the freezer for when parts were needed.

OK, going to rewatch except for the eye removal. 

[Raffles]

Amazing ep.

But what happened to the angry islanders who looked ready to storm Westmoreland's house? Seems like they were ready to burn it to the ground last ep.

 

Marion Bowles is apparently dead according to MK. If she doesn't show up I think it's pretty safe to say Charlotte will end up being cared for by Cosima and Delphine. I think she'll be well take care of by them. I think she'd probably annoy the hell out of Alison and she's got two kids already.

 

good to see Van Lier show up again, half of me still thinks me might be the one feeding info to Mrs S. He was willing to shut down Evie when she her plans got out of hand.

[NeenerNeener]

7 hours ago, margol29 said:

I want Allison back! Allison 2.0 does not cut it.

My first thought was that was Krystal pretending to be Allison, but I don't remember Krystal having any interest in music. It's kind of late in the run to be introducing yet another clone, so I guess they decided to give Allison a complete personality makeover. I have to assume this will go somewhere before the end of the series; these writers don't usually leave loose ends.

Edited July 23, 2017 by NeenerNeener

[Raffles]

Alison had a change of interests, her personality is the same.

I've found the Hendrixes dead weight on the show for a while now. I was happy to let them go off to Florida happy and never see them again after ep 3.

Donni groppiness will Alison is gross and they always make such a joke out of it too.

[bosawks]

I'm still annoyed with Alison's drug induced "my best friend forgives me for killing her now I can forgive myself" so I'm all for the crappy hair as punishment.....

Oh, I forgot to add that the scene where Rachel discovers her eye is a camera was pretty kick ass.

Edited July 23, 2017 by bosawks

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Raffles said:

But what happened to the angry islanders who looked ready to storm Westmoreland's house?

There was a defensive stake fence around his villa plus what looked like additional guards. I took it as a sign that the uprising had been squashed.

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Looks like Ira died with Susan, but now Mark is back into the picture and Cody is going to use him to find Helena?  I'm pretty sure that hooded girl that met Helena was Mark's wife, right?

Yep. That was Gracie.

8 hours ago, natyxg said:

I wonder if there was a cut scene where she put it on.

She actually was putting it on as she was leading Kira out of her office right after she was given it.

I loved this episode. Allowed me to understand Rachel better, we got the Cosmin-Scott reunion, and I even enjoyed Kira hustling Rachel. The eye scene was kick-ass. I'm never bothered by that stuff. I've seen it on FarScape and Alias. I guess I'm inured to it. It's funny though, losing my sight is one of my biggest fears. I won't even consider contacts because I'm scared of damaging my eye, yet I have no problems watching these scenes. 

[holly4755]

It has me questioning that they don't know Gracie is carrying Helena's fetusi (?). Mark is sterile. 

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that was certainly an intense episode.

I think that giving Rachel her own episode was very helpful with bringing her own story full circle. I think her character has always been underused to the extent of not really getting a full point of view. There were always hints of her character's need for autonomy, but they really explored that in depth this season, but especially this episode. It allowed for some sympathy to seep through. Even through all of her wrongdoings and all that she's done against the clones, she also has her reasons for being the way that she is. Unlike all other clones, she's had full knowledge of everything and hasn't been able to do anything about it. She's made no choices for herself in the end. So for her to finally claim her autonomy that she's never had was a very important moment for Rachel. It allows for a better redemption as the series ends. 

Her discovering the camera in her eye was haunting. I figured there was something implanted in her eye like a camera, but I forgot about that detail until this episode. Her dealing with that revelation throughout the rest of the episode was good to watch. PT, meanwhile, is watching his control slowly slipping away, so I wonder if he'll be the end of Rachel, or if she'll get to him first. I did have to look away from the eye cutting scene. 

So, Ira really did die with Susan. I thought for sure that they'd keep him alive long enough to be a sacrifice to delay PT and Coady. Alas, Coady now has Mark working for her in order to be cured. I can't even blame him for choosing that path, either. It seems like he sent Gracie to warn Helena before he left, so that was nice. I like that him and Gracie have returned. Even after not liking Gracie for the longest time, I'd prefer her to most of the returning or new characters this season. It's just a shame that it took so long because they had other storylines to deal with (like the mostly pointless Mud/Monster storyline). 

So, Alison's back with a new haircut and tattoo. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. I think, with the series ending in three episodes, they probably shouldn't have gone this route. I'm not really that impressed with new Alison because she's almost herself, but not quite. I also feel like Tatiana changed some of Alison's inflictions...or I'm just distracted by the bad wig and new outlook that it feels like she's playing an almost new character (like a clone trying to impersonate Alison; actually, Tatiana had Alison almost sounding like Krystal a couple of times there). I like Alison and missed when she left, but I don't think this version of Alison is cutting it for me. It's a damn shame they're actually going to end Alison's story like this. Hopefully there's something for Alison's conclusion that'll leave me satisfied. 

Cosima/Scott's reunion was very well done. I assume Cosima/Delphine will be Charlotte's mothers and that's how their story will end.

[madam magpie]

Another great episode! I don't want Rachel to be redeemed, but it was interesting to learn her history, and I'm glad she's got some autonomy now. Whew...the eye extraction was tough to watch. 

PT remains an extraordinarily creepy bastard.

Loved Cosima's reunion with Scott. Loved them working together again. Great to see Art.

Charlotte drinking tea and being proud of her boating experience was adorable. I love Charlotte and have thought for awhile that Delphine/Cosima will take her in the end. I'll be disappointed if that doesn't happen, actually.

I don't understand the fakey promo I've been seeing that says next week's ep is too intense for a preview. I watch on Amazon and had a real preview for next week.

[notcreative enough]

Why do you think Rachel is dead? She dug out her eye but I don't think that she died. I dont think tat Rachel is redeemed she might try and stop doing horrible things but I don't think that she will ever be one of the sisters. Kira might be forgiving and give Rachel a chance but no one else will want to. If they do it's only for Kira's sake.

Aw Cosima and Scott  reunited. A little bummed that her reunion with the other clones if via webcam. 

Cosima "you can take eggs from a baby" Helena is having babies don't let PT and Coady get the Helena babies. I hope that Mark and Gracie aren't going to really turn on Helena. She does need to have the twins and get back to her kick ass form. I want more Helena. 

Oh Allison I do not like your hair or this new Allison at all. I just don't see Allison anymore. All the other clones I see as separate people and forget that they are all played by the same person but I don't see Allison at all. Maybe I just need more time but with 3 episodes left I can't see that happening. 

So Delphine stops by the house sees S hanging out with Felix but doesn't tell anyone that PT wants Kira's eggs. She just expects Cosima to tell them Girl this is important information that you are holding onto spill your damn guts. Do we know who was going to fertilize Kira's eggs. I always assumed PT but how knows with this show. What does Coady want with Marks sperm his name would kill all the eggs unless she fix his defect.

[madam magpie]

Delphine gave S a flash drive with everything she knew about Kira on it. She knew they wanted the Lin blahblah gene, but was she there when Cosima learned about the eggs?? I forget. Or maybe S didn't read everything on the drive yet?

Edited July 23, 2017 by madam magpie

[natyxg]

Susan told Cosima about the eggs after Delphine was gone. All she knew when she left was that they were gonna do something to Kyra really soon.

[AftermathTV]

53 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Alas, Coady now has Mark working for her in order to be cured. I can't even blame him for choosing that path, either. It seems like he sent Gracie to warn Helena before he left, so that was nice. I like that him and Gracie have returned. Even after not liking Gracie for the longest time, I'd prefer her to most of the returning or new characters this season.

I feel like Gracie's motives might be Helena retrieval. The season promo still shows Helena yelling "we are family" and that's at Gracie. Things get partially heated.

What I'd like to see happen is Gracie having a moral crisis and changing her mind, only for it to be revealed her mother followed her to kidnap Helena herself.

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, that was certainly an intense episode.

I think that giving Rachel her own episode was very helpful with bringing her own story full circle. I think her character has always been underused to the extent of not really getting a full point of view. There were always hints of her character's need for autonomy, but they really explored that in depth this season, but especially this episode. It allowed for some sympathy to seep through. Even through all of her wrongdoings and all that she's done against the clones, she also has her reasons for being the way that she is. Unlike all other clones, she's had full knowledge of everything and hasn't been able to do anything about it. She's made no choices for herself in the end. So for her to finally claim her autonomy that she's never had was a very important moment for Rachel. It allows for a better redemption as the series ends.

Rachel was brought up in the system and she spent all of this time trying really hard to succeed INSIDE the system because "where would she go?". She didn't have a family or love, and she saw her sisters as numbers. Her obsession with power came from feeling powerless her whole life. In this episode she realized that she will never have that inside the "system", she will never be powerful or have autonomy or be seen as a person. She will always be 779H41.

Like I said upthread, I always wanted her to change sides and join her sisters. However, after everything that has happened that's very unlikely, so I think her ending might have more to do with being free, with going off alone into the world, being herself and autonomous for the first time.  Her sisters had that feeling before discovering the truth (a lot of them still do), but it's something Rachel has never had, except when she was like 5 or 6.
 

Spoiler

 

There was a season long promo where they showed photos from the whole season. I slowed it down then to see them better and I wondered who this was:

I kind of wonder now if it might be Rachel, because I doubt we'll get a new clone at this point, and I doubt they would, I don't know, put in a screencap in the promo of a random clone that Cosima and Delphine are gonna cure or something in the end of the series, cause they might be trying to cure them all.  When I was reviewing the slowed down promo last night to see what we still had to look forward to my first thought when I saw this was that it was Rachel going away by herself, going off into the sunset, free at last. And with no longer a need to wear all the masks she's been wearing, so now she's got normal clothes and simple hair and she looks like she might have been if she had had a normal life. I know she's supposed to be missing an eye but in the Sapce promo we see her in some shady place with some guy doing something to her eye. Maybe she will get another fake one or something.

But who knows. It might be something else entirely.

 

[MissLucas]

While it was a tense episode it hasn't changed my view of Rachel. We've seen before what growing up inside Leda has done to her - but we've also seen her drop chances of redemption before. She was always willing to believe that she was better than her sisters even when she had plenty of evidence that in the eyes of TPTB she wasn't. And there's too much blood on her hands that I would feel okay with her walking into the sunshine at the end of the show.

Kira was a good little hustler - though I assume it wasn't all hustle but occasionally genuine concern.

Edited July 23, 2017 by MissLucas

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, Alison's back with a new haircut and tattoo. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. I think, with the series ending in three episodes, they probably shouldn't have gone this route. I'm not really that impressed with new Alison because she's almost herself, but not quite. I also feel like Tatiana changed some of Alison's inflictions...or I'm just distracted by the bad wig and new outlook that it feels like she's playing an almost new character (like a clone trying to impersonate Alison; actually, Tatiana had Alison almost sounding like Krystal a couple of times there). I like Alison and missed when she left, but I don't think this version of Alison is cutting it for me. It's a damn shame they're actually going to end Alison's story like this. Hopefully there's something for Alison's conclusion that'll leave me satisfied....

Any chance she's an Allison impersonator and Allison has been kidnapped? Probably not, given the short time remaining to wrap up the stories.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

...It seems like [Mark] sent Gracie to warn Helena before he left, so that was nice....

Thanks for pointing that out; it didn't occur to me.

 

I don't recall ever hating Rachel. She always seemed like a product of brainwashing.

In most stories, a major injury to a main character often foretells the demise of the character, so I expect to see Rachel make a final self sacrifice for the freedom of her sister clones.

I've been dealing with serious health issues for the last year and a half, and this week I finally got angry at my caregivers for seeing me like a number, so this episode was really timely for me!

[natyxg]

56 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

While it was a tense episode it hasn't changed my view of Rachel. We've seen before what growing up inside Leda has done to her - but we've also seen her drop chances of redemption before. She was always willing to believe that she was better than her sisters even when she had plenty of evidence that in the eyes of TPTB she wasn't. And there's too much blood on her hands that I would feel okay with her walking into the sunshine at the end of the show.

I don't think we had seen it quite like this, though. We had glimpses of it and had an idea of what it was like, but I felt like this time they really pulled back the curtain. They made a point of highlighting Rachel's vulnerability and lack of control over anything. I was quite surprised by the detail of the nervous tick that she still continues to have even as a grown up.

[starym]

4 hours ago, holly4755 said:

It has me questioning that they don't know Gracie is carrying Helena's fetusi (?). Mark is sterile. 

When Gracie & Mark had sex she caught the disease all Castor clones carry that Sterilizes women. The disease caused her to miscarriage Helena's children. 

[Cyranetta]

Just a few odd reactions to what I found to be a riveting episode:

1. Rachel's being confronted by her "license number" reminded me of Jean Valjean's being reminded by Javert of his prison number.

2. The surveillance/control mechanism in Rachel's eye introduced so many episodes ago has literally been "hiding in plain sight."

3. They don't beat you over the head with it, but I think they're making nice subtle use of Kira's "connection" with her aunties. 

[possibilities]

The glitch the Castors have looks exactly like the flinching Rachel did whenever PT tried to reboot her camera eye. It made me wonder if that was intentional.

I also thought Alison seemed like a clone impersonating another clone, but I am hoping it's just that Alison is messed up and not herself. I'll be very disappointed if Donnie can't tell the difference between his wife and one of her sisters pretending.

They skype with each other, but still have Felix totally out of the loop.

I had thought Gracie was going to get Helena. I like the idea she went to warn her, and I would much rather see that kind of solidarity than more betrayals. Mark and Gracie turning on the sestras was so upsetting to me. I realize they're desperate, but it was still upsetting. Much better if they make it that they collaborate to bring down PT, Coady, and the whole band of baddies.

Helena did take down the entire Castor compound. Maybe bringing her to the Island is exactly what they need to do to destroy it.

Where will Sarah, Kira S, and Art go? Where is safe??

Edited July 24, 2017 by possibilities

[Loandbehold]

48 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Helena did take down the entire Castor compound. Maybe bringing her to the Island is exactly what they need to do to destroy it.

Don't forget that she also destroyed the Prolethean compound and the Portuguese drug distributors. You don't threaten bebies. 

[LittleIggy]

Rachel took a pencil through her eye and into her brain and survived. I believe she can survive pulling out the bionic eye. That scene was almost as squirm inducing as watching Samwell "treat" Ser Jorah's greyscale on GoT.

[Chyromaniac]

"Man - that's a lot of gin. I wonder if Rachel needs to get drunk to hand over Kira, or betray PT, or oh- OH!!!!!!"

[shapeshifter]

@possibilities said:

Quote

…I also thought Alison seemed like a clone impersonating another clone, but I am hoping it's just that Alison is messed up and not herself. I'll be very disappointed if Donnie can't tell the difference between his wife and one of her sisters pretending.

They skype with each other, but still have Felix totally out of the loop.…

I thought Donnie was seriously wondering who this not-Allison really was.

I was sure the hooded captive was going to be Felix rather than Mark.
IMDB shows Jordan Gavaris starring in a short film that is now in "post production," so maybe the OB writers had to write his character around his other project's shooting schedule.

[Captanne]

Really enjoyed this episode.  (I was kind of hoping the mystery man was the father of Kira.)

I wondered if Allison was a clone impostor, as well.  She just wasn't...Allison.  We can tell when the clones are impersonating each other -- because Maslany gets their mannerisms so precisely.  I felt this wasn't Allison.  

Probably is, though, and it's an unimportant, rare misstep.

[mahree]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:08 AM, LaMamaDeGatas said:

where the heck is Charlotte's mother?

Marian Bowles?  There was a (very brief) shot of her photo when MK was first introduced making her chart (when she was trying to figure out what Ferdinand looked like).  Unfortunately, it had a big red "X" over it.

[TaraS1]

22 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 I'm not really that impressed with new Alison because she's almost herself, but not quite. I also feel like Tatiana changed some of Alison's inflictions...or I'm just distracted by the bad wig and new outlook that it feels like she's playing an almost new character (like a clone trying to impersonate Alison; actually, Tatiana had Alison almost sounding like Krystal a couple of times there).

ITA, especially about the voice.  Something was off and we know Tatiana is never "off" without a purpose.  

[Kaboom 2.0]

23 hours ago, MissLucas said:

While it was a tense episode it hasn't changed my view of Rachel. We've seen before what growing up inside Leda has done to her - but we've also seen her drop chances of redemption before. She was always willing to believe that she was better than her sisters even when she had plenty of evidence that in the eyes of TPTB she wasn't. And there's too much blood on her hands that I would feel okay with her walking into the sunshine at the end of the show.

Kira was a good little hustler - though I assume it wasn't all hustle but occasionally genuine concern.

ITA re my view of Rachel. I thought this ep was done quite well, it was so great to finally have some Rachel-POV flashbacks, but I seriously doubt the events of this ep have her on the Road to Redemption. I'm good with the realization she has had that she's still "just" a clone with a serial number, still being studied, still does not all the power she craves, and see where she goes from there (in the span of the remaining three episodes). 

Donne flinching when Alison briefly brandished that glue gun was one of the true highlights of this great episode. LOL Really hoping that Alison is going through a phase and that NewAli is not another clone impersonating her. Cosima seems like she gives the best hugs, loved that she and Scott are back together again!

[GinnyMars]

Does this show share a composer with The Handmaid's Tale? I thought a lot of the music in the last part of the episode sounded uncannily Handmaid-y!

[AftermathTV]

Why is anyone going with the bizarre theory that someone's impersonating Alison? That doesn't make sense in ANY context.

It was clear as day that she was just trying to slip into a new "enlightened" persona. Which may or may not pan out how she wants it to.

Rewatch 503's ending, Jesus. It's her character development.

[that one guy]

16 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Rachel took a pencil through her eye and into her brain and survived. I believe she can survive pulling out the bionic eye. That scene was almost as squirm inducing as watching Samwell "treat" Ser Jorah's greyscale on GoT.

Since I watch Orphan Black on Amazon and it doesn't come out until the next morning, I watched these two almost back to back. It was way too much gross out for me for one day. Both dragged on too long for my taste, but Rachel's eyeball was much, much worse. I couldn't look. It didn't help that I'd broken an identical Martini glass the night before . . .

[TrininisaScorp]

I was freaking out the entire episode!

The heaviness of "Rachel, who hurt you?" and the response of "All of them" totally got me.  It was well played and so very sad.  It doesn't change the terrible things that Rachel has done in the past, but she at least gets to (to borrow from The Avengers) wipe a speck of red off her ledger.  

Watching Rachel dig the eye out was one of the most terrifying things I've seen on tv.  The camera angles were just the worst!!  Ahhhhhh!

I don't understand what is going on with Allison and like many of you, it fell flat for me.  

The neolutionists trying to harvest Kira's eggs were so, so wrong.  I'm glad they got her away.  But, I'm worried for Helena and the babies.

Cosima and Scott having a reunion was lovely!  I miss seeing those two hanging out and hitting up their science again.  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, that one guy said:

...but Rachel's eyeball was much, much worse. I couldn't look. It didn't help that I'd broken an identical Martini glass the night before . . .

Ha! Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. You poor, traumatized viewer!

I got the impression that all the drinking was to convey that removing the camera eye was something she gave a lot of thought rather than it being an impulse — that she was anesthetizing herself with gin. 
But I don't recall: Did Rachel start drinking before or after she saw that tablet with the infinity view of what her eye saw?

[tennisgurl]

Wow, intense episode. I don't really like Rachel, but I do find her to be really interesting, and I liked seeing her backstory and getting to see some glimmers of humanity in her. Rachel might have had more freedom in that she's always known the truth about her existence, but at least the other clones got to have their own lives, while Rachel has always only been a Clone, and that's it. She was trotted out as a specimen to charm investors, and has been poked and prodded and used constantly, without any real considering to her as a person with her own life and feeling and desire for autonomy. I still think Rachel has done awful things, and I wont forget that, but I do understand her a little bit more now. She has built her icy exterior to hide her true helplessness and frustration about her lack of choices. She will do anything for freedom, and when she got what she thought was freedom, it was just more imprisonment. She plays at being all knowing and in control, but she knows damn well that she has no control, even now.

Rachel's martini glad was the TRUE hero of the hour!

Alison's hair...its not working. I'm half convinced she's another clone trying to take over her life. It was nice to Alison and Donnie again, but this is pretty questionable.

Oh no, poor Ira! I wonder if he's really dead, or he's just being hidden somewhere, and they're just trying to manipulate Mark? It was so sad when they said how they choose the Castor clone who was taken by drawing a straw. The castor clones, in a way, had it even worse than the Leda clones. The Castors are more like Rachel, in a way. They always knew they were clones, and it gave them more knowledge of themselves, but they never got to live a real life, they've always just been clones to be used by their creators. I am glad to see Mark and Gracie again. We really are getting everyone back again.

Cosima and Scott reuniting was super cute. I'm glad they've gotten to such a good place, after Scott got over his crush.

[natyxg]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Wow, intense episode. I don't really like Rachel, but I do find her to be really interesting, and I liked seeing her backstory and getting to see some glimmers of humanity in her. Rachel might have had more freedom in that she's always known the truth about her existence, but at least the other clones got to have their own lives, while Rachel has always only been a Clone, and that's it. She was trotted out as a specimen to charm investors, and has been poked and prodded and used constantly, without any real considering to her as a person with her own life and feeling and desire for autonomy. I still think Rachel has done awful things, and I wont forget that, but I do understand her a little bit more now. She has built her icy exterior to hide her true helplessness and frustration about her lack of choices. She will do anything for freedom, and when she got what she thought was freedom, it was just more imprisonment. She plays at being all knowing and in control, but she knows damn well that she has no control, even now.

I agree. And this is why her entire personality is build on desiring power and on being in control at all times, even when she is upset. This is something that even shows up in her sadomasochistic relationship with Ferdinand, this need to control/dominate. And this is why when she finally thought she was autonomous/free she settled down.  She was no longer interested in using force with Sarah and the others (PT wanted it, but she seemed okay with it), and even seemed so much more zen.  Hell, she wasn't even interested in Ferdinand anymore.

Time after time she chose Dyad/Neo even at the expense of her sisters because it was all she had/all she knew ( "where would I go?"), and she kept thinking she could win the game and become a person at Dyad/Neolution if she tried hard enough and climbed high enough. Well, now she climbed all the way to the top, all the way up to PT, and it still meant nothing. Now she finally knows that she will never be a person in their eyes and she finally took the leap....even though she still has nowhere to go and no one to go to.

[Captanne]

I don't get the impression that anyone thinks it's not actually Allison -- just that the performance this round was not as precise as it has been in the past.  I agree with that.  Initially I was thrown because there is practically no hint of Allison in this new character being presented as an "Allision Who Has Found Herself."  Because this show has been so damn good at presenting clones impersonating each other -- that is a perfectly natural way to describe it.  That of course, is merely my opinion.

In other news, I watched an interview with Maslany someone here linked to the other day and she said that Rachel is her most difficult portrayal because she is so different from her natural personality.  (Which -- considering Helena -- really?  ~shudder~  LOL)

[natyxg]

7 minutes ago, Captanne said:

I don't get the impression that anyone thinks it's not actually Allison -- just that the performance this round was not as precise as it has been in the past.  I agree with that.  Initially I was thrown because there is practically no hint of Allison in this new character being presented as an "Allision Who Has Found Herself."  Because this show has been so damn good at presenting clones impersonating each other -- that is a perfectly natural way to describe it.  That of course, is merely my opinion.

In other news, I watched an interview with Maslany someone here linked to the other day and she said that Rachel is her most difficult portrayal because she is so different from her natural personality.  (Which -- considering Helena -- really?  ~shudder~  LOL)

LOL. I laughed. If memory serves me right she used to say that Allison was the closest one to her.