The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[Churchhoney]

11 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It's funny, I see JB & M not so much as control freaks, but more as being controlled. I see them as needing something or someone to guide them and then blindly following to reach a life that they believe is obtainable, but in reality isn't. The end goal that Gothard sells sounds awesome, but isn't something that can be globally obtained and certainly not by his measures. I see JB & M fulling invested in following Gothard to create this Christian utopia. 

I guess it's a result of my having been raised by control freaks who didn't have the kind of cover JB and M get from Gothard. But they were control freaks nevertheless -- and they were very fearful, and that's why they had to have control. As a result of that, I put the cause and effect in a different direction. To me, just looking at how similar they seem in overall personality and approach and aura -- especially JB -- to what I saw in my family, I tend to interpret them as being basically the same as my family ... i.e., fearful people who therefore are bound and determined to control everything .... who latched onto a "philosophy" that promised an end to their fears through control. 

JB, especially, chose a "guide" who explicitly told JB that, under his system, he -- JB -- would be the be-all and end-all of a large group of people, whom he could credibly threaten with eternal torture in a lake of fire if they crossed him. .... I agree that most power-mad people are very fearful....that's why they need the power. .... But when you look at what Gothard promises, I don't think there's anything at "awesome' or even Christian about it. It sets up a system -- with multiple and various failsafes -- by which "patriarchs" of Gothard families can ease their fears by being total autocrats. 

What it promises, if you read it a lot of it, has no growth, no love, no warmth, no real achievement, no freedom of any kind except for the top "leaders" of each family  -- nothing -- for anyone but the lucky patriarchs. Sp I don't see what this wonderful vision is that they grabbed onto. All that it actually promises and sets forth is that the lucky patriarchs in the Gothard system get to assert that they rightfully hold total authority over all women and all members of younger generations (so long as the current top-dog patriarchs shall live) and books and teachings and camps and indoctrinations and oppression-on-demand to help keep all those people doing exactly what the patriarch wants. .... That's really the sum total of Gothard's supposedly beautiful vision that they locked onto., as far as I can tell. It's a vision of one guy getting total obedience from a whole bunch of people for his whole life -- because God likes it that way. So of course a fearful control freak would love it, and would pay absolutely no attention to what the system is doing to all the people in his clan. And that complete lack of attention to others and complete lack of empathy towards them is also a nice mark of the total control freak (who, yeah, is also a fearful guy...), to me! 

So I see JB and M and especially JB as having grabbed for something that looks great to him/them and promises essentially zero for anyone else involved. ..............And, hey, that's what they got! .... 

I think that having personally known truly warped and evil people who look "nice" to outsiders causes one to notice that there are other people like that, whom others are accepting as "nice" but misguided. My personal experience tells me forcefully that a not insignificant number of those who are accepted as "probably nice enough but very misguided, poor things" are actually pure warped crap!      Yep, I'm a cynic that way!   .... And you aren't. So you're probably happier. .... But maybe more easily fooled, as well?  I think that's possible! 

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I guess it's a result of my having been raised by control freaks who didn't have the kind of cover JB and M get from Gothard. But they were control freaks nevertheless -- and they were very fearful, and that's why they had to have control. As a result of that, I put the cause and effect in a different direction. To me, just looking at how similar they seem in overall personality and approach and aura -- especially JB -- to what I saw in my family, I tend to interpret them as being basically the same as my family ... i.e., fearful people who therefore are bound and determined to control everything .... who latched onto a "philosophy" that promised an end to their fears through control. 

JB, especially, chose a "guide" who explicitly told JB that, under his system, he -- JB -- would be the be-all and end-all of a large group of people, whom he could credibly threaten with eternal torture in a lake of fire if they crossed him. .... I agree that most power-mad people are very fearful....that's why they need the power. .... But when you look at what Gothard promises, I don't think there's anything at "awesome' or even Christian about it. It sets up a system -- with multiple and various failsafes -- by which "patriarchs" of Gothard families can ease their fears by being total autocrats. 

What it promises, if you read it a lot of it, has no growth, no love, no warmth, no real achievement, no freedom of any kind except for the top "leaders" of each family  -- nothing -- for anyone but the lucky patriarchs. Sp I don't see what this wonderful vision is that they grabbed onto. All that it actually promises and sets forth is that the lucky patriarchs in the Gothard system get to assert that they rightfully hold total authority over all women and all members of younger generations (so long as the current top-dog patriarchs shall live) and books and teachings and camps and indoctrinations and oppression-on-demand to help keep all those people doing exactly what the patriarch wants. .... That's really the sum total of Gothard's supposedly beautiful vision that they locked onto., as far as I can tell. It's a vision of one guy getting total obedience from a whole bunch of people for his whole life -- because God likes it that way. So of course a fearful control freak would love it, and would pay absolutely no attention to what the system is doing to all the people in his clan. And that complete lack of attention to others and complete lack of empathy towards them is also a nice mark of the total control freak (who, yeah, is also a fearful guy...), to me! 

So I see JB and M and especially JB as having grabbed for something that looks great to him/them and promises essentially zero for anyone else involved. ..............And, hey, that's what they got! .... 

I think that having personally known truly warped and evil people who look "nice" to outsiders causes one to notice that there are other people like that, whom others are accepting as "nice" but misguided. My personal experience tells me forcefully that a not insignificant number of those who are accepted as "probably nice enough but very misguided, poor things" are actually pure warped crap!      Yep, I'm a cynic that way!   .... And you aren't. So you're probably happier. .... But maybe more easily fooled, as well?  I think that's possible! 

I'm seeing much of what you describe as the method of which to obtain this Christian utopia, not as the utopia itself. And I didn't mean to imply that I feel JB & M are "nice", because I don't at all. I don't have a clue to who they are, as I don't believe them to be whole or very deep. They don't have any qualities that I see as admiral at all, actually, I just see them more as followers than control freaks. 

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm seeing much of what you describe as the method of which to obtain this Christian utopia, not as the utopia itself. And I didn't mean to imply that I feel JB & M are "nice", because I don't at all. I don't have a clue to who they are, as I don't believe them to be whole or very deep. They don't have any qualities that I see as admiral at all, actually, I just see them more as followers than control freaks. 

Whereas I think JB -- and most of the Gothard guys -- see the method as the utopia! Especially since they're kind of promised that the reason things are this way in earthly life is because that's how things are in heaven also, since God, too, is a patriarch.  It's patriarchs all the way down. (Or up, as the case may be.) ..... 

No way around it. I'm much more cynical about humans than you are! Sometimes I wish I wasn't. But then from time to time my cynicism has served me well, so I figure I might as well keep it....And that's my fearfulness speaking! 

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Ah, but she probably wasn't saved, so the rest of eternity won't be going so well for her...

That sort of thinking really gets my hackles up. 

I suppose that it you asked the Duggars, they would still say that Free Will was a precious gift, just that they do everything in their power to make sure that only godly choices are readily available. Or something. 

However, more religious denominational offshoots have the Lord's Prayer which is "lead us not into temptation", which also doesn't seem to leave much room to make free-will decisions....  A puzzle, no?

Edited June 26, 2017 by queenanne

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 hours ago, queenanne said:

However, more religious denominational offshoots have the Lord's Prayer which is "lead us not into temptation", which also doesn't seem to leave much room to make free-will decisions....  A puzzle, no?

That's always been puzzling to me. I think that pretty much every Christian sect recognizes the Lord's Prayer, even though it seems that the more Fundie ones frown on the sort of ritualized prayer that the Catholics cling to. But why in the world would one even have to ask God not to lead one into temptation? That's not part of his job...At best, shouldn't it be something like "help me avoid falling for Satan's leading me into temptation" or something...

Then again if I thought any part of the mythology really stood up to logical scrutiny I wouldn't have ended up an an atheist.

[Temperance]

I think it was the Vicar of Dibley who had a mug that said "Lead me not into temptation I can find it for myself."

[Arwen Evenstar]

6 hours ago, Temperance said:

I think it was the Vicar of Dibley who had a mug that said "Lead me not into temptation I can find it for myself."

LOL.  I love her!

She and Jennifer Saunders ripped the legalism of evangelical Christianity  (particularly televangelists) when they  created the obnoxious character, Bo Turtle, on AbFab.

i think the reason for the line in  The Lords Prayer is that it's very easy to go down the wrong road, often unwittingly, so being aware and seeking guidance.  Never was sure why some evangelical sects don't  recite The Lords Prayer, since it was one that He taught us?  Some don't do communion, which He asked His followers to do in remembrance of Him.  I never understood why, other than the distaste for rituals and it involved wine, but some churches use grape juice. 

[zoomama]

2 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

LOL.  I love her!

She and Jennifer Saunders ripped the legalism of evangelical Christianity  (particularly televangelists) when they  created the obnoxious character, Bo Turtle, on AbFab.

 

i think the reason for the line in  The Lords Prayer is that it's very easy to go down the wrong road, often unwittingly, so being aware and seeking guidance.  Never was sure why some evangelical sects don't  recite The Lords Prayer, since it was one that He taught us?  Some don't do communion, which He asked His followers to do in remembrance of Him.  I never understood why, other than the distaste for rituals and it involved wine, but some churches use grape juice. 

i learned that the Lords Prayer is just an example of the type of prayer we are to say. in all honesty, when i pray, i just talk to God in my normal everyday language.  nothing frilly or fancy about my prayer style.  i dont know if we have ever heard the duggars pray, have we?

[Genevrier]

5 minutes ago, zoomama said:

i learned that the Lords Prayer is just an example of the type of prayer we are to say. in all honesty, when i pray, i just talk to God in my normal everyday language.  nothing frilly or fancy about my prayer style.  i dont know if we have ever heard the duggars pray, have we?

It's a Jewish prayer, I think, or a Jewish form of prayer. I always hear it at funerals in my husband's family. 

[RazzleberryPie]

The Lord's Prayer is based in how Jesus told his disciples to pray. You can't really argue with Jesus on how to base a Christian prayer. It's not the only way to pray, but here it goes:

Matthew 6:9–13 (ESV) "Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.'"

KJV is worded slightly differently, but same meaning. 

[bigskygirl]

We have landed in religion discussion land instead of discussing the lonely J's. Please circle back to talking about the older unmarried Duggar offspring. Thank you.

[Arwen Evenstar]

11 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

We have landed in religion discussion land instead of discussing the lonely J's. Please circle back to talking about the older unmarried Duggar offspring. Thank you.

Sorry, half the time I've been posting to the wrong threads lately. Happens less when tablet is on the horizontal since the title shows up in that orientation. 

[ginger90]

Jana's garden

https://m.facebook.com/duggarfamilyofficial/photos/a.518180528315601.1073741828.510067475793573/1074380109362304/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=E

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Jana's garden

https://m.facebook.com/duggarfamilyofficial/photos/a.518180528315601.1073741828.510067475793573/1074380109362304/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=E

The garden doesn't make sense to me. They don't have wild animals in NWA? Fence the tables in? Is that a chicken coop too?

[ginger90]

Here's a larger pic

https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/19620221_1074380109362304_7127533822914719082_o.jpg?oh=62b1cb75bba1ab60ef59456be675d4db&oe=5A108DEF

[lookeyloo]

There could be deer or other animals to eat her garden produce. I guess deer could jump the fence. We are in a metro area and there are deer sometimes along with raccoons and coyotes and other wildlife. 

[floridamom]

I guess those plants are Jana's babies now.

[Annabel11]

I wonder where on the property this is. An ariel view doesn't show such lush woods near the house. 

[JoanArc]

What a crappy set. You can see adult plants in pits, and the ones in the ground aren't established. It was thrown together for summer and something to film. These people only seem to eat fresh vegetables as f-u moments. Not to mention it'd be ok for Johanna to be into this, not a woman pushing 30. That's just pathetic. Maybe Jana works out her aggression by plunging a shover into the ground? Or it's where the bodies are literally buried?

[kokapetl]

It all looks like it was planted a week ago. And the chicken setup looks like it's just decorative. 

[Sew Sumi]

What happened to her "garden" from last year? Did it fail? I don't remember fencing (that she certainly didn't build) or the mesh ( that she certainly didn't install), or the chicken coop (which looks Pinterest decorative... I don't see a pen back there).

She planted some corn and a couple other things and bought some used outdoor seating. Big whoop. 

[ariel]

I see lots of lights that seem to be hastily strung.  Where are the green veg or flowers?

ETA - it looks like a lot in the northeast that's getting ready to bring in & sell Christmas Trees for the VFW.  

Edited June 30, 2017 by ariel

[Ownedbydogs]

15 minutes ago, ariel said:

I see lots of lights that seem to be hastily strung.  Where the green veg or flowers?

ETA - it looks like a lot in the northeast that's getting ready to bring in & sell Christmas Trees for the VFW.  

It really does look like a Christmas tree lot.  

[RedheadZombie]

9 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

There could be deer or other animals to eat her garden produce. I guess deer could jump the fence. We are in a metro area and there are deer sometimes along with raccoons and coyotes and other wildlife. 

Maybe the fencing is to keep the feral child out.  Hasn't she been foraging for her meals lately? 

[latetotheparty]

7 hours ago, JoanArc said:

What a crappy set. You can see adult plants in pits, and the ones in the ground aren't established. It was thrown together for summer and something to film. These people only seem to eat fresh vegetables as f-u moments. Not to mention it'd be ok for Johanna to be into this, not a woman pushing 30. That's just pathetic. Maybe Jana works out her aggression by plunging a shover into the ground? Or it's where the bodies are literally buried?

If not I could suggest some. 

[ariel]

Michelle blames Jana for kicking a lot while she was in uterus. Wasn't Jana a twin?  How does Michelle know that she was the one doing all the kicking? Ever since Eve, let's blame the female.

[xwordfanatik]

7 minutes ago, ariel said:

Michelle blames Jana for kicking a lot while she was in uterus. Wasn't Jana a twin?  How does Michelle know that she was the one doing all the kicking? Ever since Eve, let's blame the female.

That is beyond messed up.  And, Michelle was a Mother of the Year?  What misguided fools awarded her that, I can't even imagine.

[RazzleberryPie]

10 minutes ago, ariel said:

Michelle blames Jana for kicking a lot while she was in uterus. Wasn't Jana a twin?  How does Michelle know that she was the one doing all the kicking? Ever since Eve, let's blame the female.

Michelle is insane. I think she's jealous of the first female to enter the family, and saw her as some sort of weird, unfounded competition. If she'd had Jessa's spunkier personality, it would have been 10x worse. You're right though, how do you know which baby kicked and when?

[ariel]

1 minute ago, xwordfanatik said:

That is beyond messed up.  And, Michelle was a Mother of the Year?  What misguided fools awarded her that, I can't even imagine.

What's scary is that I think she may have been mother of the year more than once.  Who are the idiots that award her this?  Hopefully it's just Gorthard & his goons.

[jammaker]

31 minutes ago, ariel said:

Michelle blames Jana for kicking a lot while she was in uterus. Wasn't Jana a twin?  How does Michelle know that she was the one doing all the kicking? Ever since Eve, let's blame the female.

Ok, I see this said a lot. As a twin mom - yes, it is possible to tell which twin is kicking. Mine were oriented so one was up the left side and one was up the right. They settled in there early and stayed there. They definitely had unique personalities and kicking patterns. One was prone to the hiccups; the other never got them.  Fraternal twins have separate placentas and separate sacs - it's not a free for all in there. And once they get to a certain size (for me, it was at 20 weeks), there's not a terrible lot of room for them to shift around. If you know where they are and how they're situated, it's definitely possible to know which one is kicking.  I don't think this is a Michelle hating Jana thing.

[ariel]

1 minute ago, jammaker said:

I don't think this is a Michelle hating Jana thing.

If it is not, why was there a need for Michelle to mention this in the first place?

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, ariel said:

What's scary is that I think she may have been mother of the year more than once.  Who are the idiots that award her this?  Hopefully it's just Gorthard & his goons.

She got at least two. My favorite is that one of them was from Vision Forum, Dougie Phillips' group. Most fitting that the super-holy "pastor" jerk who groomed and viciously, repeatedly molested his family's teenage "nanny" gives an MOTY award to a uber-godly bitch who covered up for her molester son, got him no help for what was clearly a serious problem and forced her daughters to sweep it under the rug .........Takes one to know one, in these POTY things, perhaps. 

And I believe that at some point she was the Arkansas winner in some national Mother of the Year kind of contest by a more broadly based honoring-motherhood group. Mrs. Mom Arkansas, or whatever. Luckily for whatever the group was, they didn't dub her national MOTY, I don't think. She was just a state designee.........I don't know if she won any more or not, but I do think that some other organizations/places "honored" her as supermom over the years, though. ... Apparently fact checking isn't part of such enterprises. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Michelle is insane. I think she's jealous of the first female to enter the family, and saw her as some sort of weird, unfounded competition. If she'd had Jessa's spunkier personality, it would have been 10x worse. You're right though, how do you know which baby kicked and when?

Michelle has said Jana was a spunky child, and basically they trained it out of her. It's in one of the old YouTube videos.

[Temperance]

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Michelle Duggar won the 2004 "Young Mother of the Year Award" in Arkansas, which is sponsored by American Mothers Incorporated.

She was 37 when she won and had 15 kids. The award was presented to her by then Governor Mike Huckabee. If you go to Wikipedia (to Duggar family page), you can click the article to read more.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Temperance

[xwordfanatik]

2 hours ago, ariel said:

What's scary is that I think she may have been mother of the year more than once.  Who are the idiots that award her this?  Hopefully it's just Gorthard & his goons.

I hope so, too.  Was it this thread that someone quoted GWTW Rhett Butler as saying, "a cat's a better mother than you are" about Scarlett?  That is how I see Michelle.

It's crazy to think that this woman has admirers that would go for awarding her.

[Rabbittron]

I don't think Josiah will ever get married.  Isn't he damaged goods because he has a broken courtship or is damaged goods only for girls?

[Sew Sumi]

Zach Bates married after a failed courtship, but the Duggars seem to play by much stricter rules. 

[Mollie]

31 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

I don't think Josiah will ever get married.  Isn't he damaged goods because he has a broken courtship or is damaged goods only for girls?

It probably doesn't help him much that Marjorie still hangs around the family and is often there for parties and special occasions.  Josiah had some kind of weird surgery for a birth defect when he was baby.  Michelle and Jim Bob never said exactly what it was for, so I've often wondered just what was wrong with him.  If it had been for some kind of illness, the Duggars would have played it up for the sympathy.  Obviously, it was something they are too embarrassed to completely reveal.

[JoanArc]

3 hours ago, Temperance said:

From Wikipedia:

She was 37 when she won and had 15 kids. The award was presented to her by then Governor Mike Huckabee. If you go to Wikipedia (to Duggar family page), you can click the article to read more.

To Michelle's no doubt horror - Hillary Clinton won the same award years earlier. 

[floridamom]

Mollie: do you remember where it was that Michelle mentioned surgery for Josiah? Gee, I hope he's ok now.

[latetotheparty]

7 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Mollie: do you remember where it was that Michelle mentioned surgery for Josiah? Gee, I hope he's ok now.

Probably something common like hypospadius. Non-serious and correctable but a congenital dick defect would be brand damaging. I can't see JB and MEchelle giving a damn about his privacy otherwise. They'd be milking it for a it's worth. 

[floridamom]

Thanks, latetotheparty. I learned something today.

[JoanArc]

3 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

Probably something common like hypospadius. Non-serious and correctable but a congenital dick defect would be brand damaging. I can't see JB and MEchelle giving a damn about his privacy otherwise. They'd be milking it for a it's worth. 

I thought it would be something like a genital anomaly, like an undecended testicle, or maybe cleft palate.

[latetotheparty]

1 minute ago, floridamom said:

Thanks, latetotheparty. I learned something today.

I used to work in pediatrics!

1 minute ago, JoanArc said:

I thought it would be something like a genital anomaly, like an undecended testicle, or maybe cleft palate.

That too. 

[Temperance]

37 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

I can't see JB and MEchelle giving a damn about his privacy otherwise. They'd be milking it for a it's worth. 

I  disagree. If he had born during the TLC years, then that might be true. But a surgery happening to a baby when that child is no longer a baby and is  heathly now is hardly something to be milked. Especially when they weren't famous and there was no filming at that point. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Temperance

[awaken]

6 hours ago, Temperance said:

From Wikipedia:

She was 37 when she won and had 15 kids. The award was presented to her by then Governor Mike Huckabee. If you go to Wikipedia (to Duggar family page), you can click the article to read more.

 That tells me all I need to know. He is definitely FOTY given his offspring.   

[latetotheparty]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

I  disagree. If he had born during the TLC years, then that might be true. But a surgery happening to a baby when that child is no longer a baby and is  heathly now is hardly something to be milked. Especially when they weren't famous and there was no filming at that point. 

This is where I get into trouble, having never watched the show and only hanging around here after Joshgate. I'm pretty clueless about their earlier timeline. I'm sure you're right 

Some times I wonder why I'm still around since, apparently, this family is NEVER going to get the comeuppance they deserve. But I'd miss you all dreadfully and this A+ quality snark. 

[JoanArc]

4 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

 

4 hours ago, floridamom said:

Thanks, latetotheparty. I learned something today.

I used to work in pediatrics!

4 hours ago, JoanArc said:

 

I work pecs now. It's a small world.

[Portia]

7 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I work pecs now.

Sounds . . . sexy?    Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[lascuba]

22 hours ago, ariel said:

If it is not, why was there a need for Michelle to mention this in the first place?

It's a cute story? I don't have kids but I could see myself mentioning that my baby would kick the he'll out of me in utero. Plenty of good, loving moms talking about miserable pregnancies decades later.