S03.E10: Lantern

[smorbie]

3 hours ago, msrachelj said:

people, especially family, can be so cruel. a lot.  when i was a young girl ,  motherless, lonely, feeling different, my much older brother and i had an argument about something and he said to me "you don't have any personality, your little brother got all the personality" that was 50 years ago, he's been dead a while now  and it still hurts. and i don't forgive him. 

It is sad how those things we carry with us can hurt us.  My mom sent me a picture recently.  It was of my sister and our closet cousins, three of them, and me.  I was probably about eight in the picture.  My sister and the oldest cousin were standing in back with the twin boys in front.  And off to the side was me, holding my hands in front of me in a self-comforting position.

My mother thought it was cute.  All I could see was that sad little girl.  My older sister ruled over the rest of us with an iron fist.  Often she wouldn't let the others play with me.  I guess the picture was taken on one of those days.

And I can't shake having seen it.  It was 50 years ago, but my heart aches for that little girl.

55 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While it seemed pretty certain Chuck was dead, it seems odd that the actors and crew would be spoiling their show's cliffhanger.  If they are going to blab about Chuck's fate, why not just show that he was dead in the finale?

Yeah...it makes me wonder.

It reminds of an episode of Talking Dead that aired right after the group lost the prison.  Judith, the baby, was missing and the writers kept talking about how much blood there was in her carrier.  The callers were saying she wasn't dead and Hardwick agreed.  The writers just looked stunned and kept talking about the blood...,

And, no, she wasn't dead.

Edited June 21, 2017 by smorbie

[PrincessSteel]

When Chuck was taking an axe to the wooden bookshelves I thought back to the episode when Jimmy was helping his brother take down the space blankets that Chuck had taped all over the inside walls of the library. Chuck was so insistent on rolling the tape just so to protect the wood surface. Once Chuck became willing to rip that same wood to shreds I knew he was, you should pardon the expression, toast.

[smorbie]

38 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't think that Jimmy would try to fool people who already know who he is.  They'll likely always think of him as Jimmy

My guess is he disassociates with all of them in the future.  I think he just cuts all possible ties with his past for some reason.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, smorbie said:

It is sad how those things we carry with us can hurt us.  My mom sent me a picture recently.  It was of my sister and our closet cousins, three of them, and me.  I was probably about eight in the picture.  My sister and the oldest cousin were standing in back with the twin boys in front.  And off to the side was me, holding my hands in front of me in a self-comforting position.

My mother thought it was cute.  All I could see was that sad little girl.  My older sister ruled over the rest of us with an iron fist.  Often she wouldn't let the others play with me.  I guess the picture was taken on one of those days.

And I can't shake having seen it.  It was 50 years ago, but my heart aches for that little girl.

Yeah...it makes me wonder.

It reminds of an episode of Talking Dead that aired right after the group lost the prison.  Judith, the baby was missing and the writers kept talking about how much blood there was in her carrier.  The callers were saying she wasn't dead and Hardwick agreed.  The writers just looked stunned and kept talking about the blood...

And, no, she wasn't dead.

And apparently space blankets are flame retardant...I'm just sayin'! :)  Seriously, I am 99.9% sure Chuck is dead.  I just think they should have either made it clear on the show or have the cast and crew keep their mouths shut until the season 4 premiere.   

[SunnyBeBe]

Mental illness is quite painful, not only to the patient, but their family members.  I won't pretend to know what it's like for someone to bury a loved one from suicide.  I have seen it with friends and it's horrific.  Often, the family tries to help and/or intervene for years, to no avail.  

[smorbie]

33 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I don't think Jimmy will blame Howard at all for Chuck's demise. Jimmy had a hand in it just as much

Jimmy will blame Jimmy

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, smorbie said:

It reminds of an episode of Talking Dead that aired right after the group lost the prison.  Judith, the baby was missing and the writers kept talking about how much blood there was in her carrier.  The callers were saying she wasn't dead and Hardwick agreed.  The writers just looked stunned and kept talking about the blood...

And, no, she wasn't dead.

Who knows, maybe there's a dumpster behind Chuck's house.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Who knows, maybe there's a dumpster behind Chuck's house.

And Chuck will be beaten to death with a baseball bat next season? :)

[Captanne]

Full disclosure, I read this page before seeing the episode.  Now, I've seen it and have had a chance to think about it and the suggestions here.

Personally, I think Chuck has been written into a corner -- not a bad one or an unintentional one, but a corner never-the-less.  He really has no where to go but out of the picture.  

I can certainly see his death as appropriate to the narrative (can they figure out it was "unintentional" or "intentional" suicide?)  

If he lives, how does he do that moving forward?  Crippled?  In a coma?  Languishing under tons of prosthetic burn makeup?  How do they explain he avoided smoke inhalation damage?  He goes down for arson or collects insurance money he doesn't need?  I just don't see the future (as a character and a narrative) working out.

 

ETA:  I know it sounds like I'm inviting suggestions -- I'm really not.  I don't want to encourage or start an OT conversation of speculation.  I'm just trying to noodle through a reasonable and plausible storyline in which Chuck survives the fire.  In a word, why should he?  He's lived through his narrative -- I don't see a need for it to continue.  For me, in my own opinion, Chuck has lived out his usefulness for the plot perfectly.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Captanne

[Eulipian 5k]

6 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Jimmy will blame Jimmy

Besides the Electric Company, Jimmy is the last person to see or talk to Chuck, so yes, he will be wracked with guilt no matter what.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Eulipian 5k

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Jimmy will blame Jimmy

Yes, that's probably right.  To me, that's often an overly self-indulgent tactic and I hope they avoid it.  

[smorbie]

7 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Who knows, maybe there's a dumpster behind Chuck's house.

**wipes spittle off screen***

I had to read that three times before I got it.  Good one!

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Jimmy will blame Jimmy

I think there could be a whole lot of Jimmy, Kim and Howard blaming themselves and each other.  

Jimmy could blame Howard for pushing him over the edge by kicking him out of the firm.

Howard could blame Jimmy for the Mesa Verde scam and humiliating Chuck at the hearing.  If he finds out how the insurance company found out about Chuck, he might blame him for that as well.

Howard could also blame Kim for going along with Jimmy in the deception in the hearing.  I could see him saying, "I'd expect that sort of thing from Jimmy, but I thought you were better than that!"

Kim could blame both Jimmy and Howard for the reasons mentioned above.  

Kim will almost certainly blame herself for her role in covering up the MV scam and the hearing.

Jimmy will probably blame himself, especially if he finds out the malpractice insurance was what made Howard force Chuck out.

Howard will likely feel guilt for kicking Chuck out of the firm and doing it in such a harsh and humiliating manner.  

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Gah, I have a sister and now I have to think about what she thinks about me.....

I have been wondering this morning if Kim will end up with Howard, and I've gotten to this place in a pretty convoluted fashion.  We see Saul call Francesca "Honey Tits", a type of behavior that we never see Jimmy display on the show. What caused him to become so bitter? The obvious solution is that he lost in the Game of Love. Just like Richard Blaine in Casablanca.  If Jimmy is Rick, who is Victor Laszlo?  Howard!

This is being discussed on the Speculation without Spoilers thread, but a few points have been raised over there that address this:

1. Howard is married.

2. Howard would be very unlikely to get involved with someone who had once worked for him due to the appearance of impropriety (and fueling speculation about previous involvement when Kim worked at HHM). Nor would Howard invite more scandal at HHM after everything with Chuck.

3. Kim would be very unlikely to get involved with someone she had once worked in a subordinate capacity due to the appearance of impropriety (and fueling speculation about how her previous success at the firm may have been due to Howard's influence, or even rumours about how getting busted down to doc review was the result of a lovers' quarrel).

4. If Jimmy is representative of what Kim finds attractive in a guy, she would be unlikely to find anything attractive in Howard.

[smorbie]

14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

And apparently space blankets are flame retardant...I'm just sayin'! :)  Seriously, I am 99.9% sure Chuck is dead.  I just think they should have either made it clear on the show or have the cast and crew keep their mouths shut until the season 4 premiere.   

I think he's dead, too.  But, I also think they're playing with us some.

48 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Kim seemed to have a way with the geezers when she did Jimmy's wills.  She was very patient in explaining that the yard and the lily pond would be included as part of the house, but agreeing to mention them in the will to prevent some dirty judge from playing tricks. :)

And I bet, unlike the fashion police in this forum, the old folks LOVE Kim's ponytail. :)

I like her ponytail, myself.  And it was in style for professional women about that time, too.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, that's probably right.  To me, that's often an overly self-indulgent tactic and I hope they avoid it.  

It is, but cliches are cliches because they are so often what really happens.

How can he not blame himself?

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Gah, I have a sister and now I have to think about what she thinks about me.....

I have been wondering this morning if Kim will end up with Howard, and I've gotten to this place in a pretty convoluted fashion.  We see Saul call Francesca "Honey Tits", a type of behavior that we never see Jimmy display on the show. What caused him to become so bitter? The obvious solution is that he lost in the Game of Love. Just like Richard Blaine in Casablanca.  If Jimmy is Rick, who is Victor Laszlo?  Howard!

Did anyone else get the feeling that Franchesca really liked working for Kim but was meh about working for Jimmy? Of course we know she works for Saul in the future, so the dmv must hell on wheels.

4 hours ago, benteen said:

I think I feel sorry for all those poor books in Chuck's house that went up in smoke...

Excellent assessment of Hector.  He is a bully though Margolis really does project a serious air of menace around him, like he's a guy you just don't want to be around because he can snap at any minute.

You totally get why all his nephews were so terrifying with an uncle like that.

[Dev F]

13 hours ago, Bannon said:

When exposing your firm to the risk of doubling your insurance costs, if the insurance company ever gets wind of your crazy partner's condition, then allowing your crazy partner to meet with clients is a really bad plan.

It's not a great idea, no. But my point is, that's not Howard's plan; that's what Chuck insisted on doing, and more and more he was misleading Howard about the degree to which he was recovered in order to do stuff like that.

I'm not one of the "Chuck is the devil and secretly behind every terrible thing that happens" folks, and I don't really hold Chuck morally culpable for suffering from a severe psychological affliction. But I also don't think we can blame Howard for awkwardly managing Chuck's condition while trying to keep it from affecting his business. He's not keeping Chuck around because he wants to sponge off a crazy man's talents; he tried repeatedly to manage Chuck out of the firm and it didn't work, and he only started to lean on him again as a partner once he seemed to be recovering and demonstrated that he could still kick legal ass. To me that seems more like "Making the best of a bad situation" than "Following a dumb and risky plan."

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

This is being discussed on the Speculation without Spoilers thread, but a few points have been raised over there that address this:

1. Howard is married.

2. Howard would be very unlikely to get involved with someone who had once worked for him due to the appearance of impropriety (and fueling speculation about previous involvement when Kim worked at HHM). Nor would Howard invite more scandal at HHM after everything with Chuck.

3. Kim would be very unlikely to get involved with someone she had once worked in a subordinate capacity due to the appearance of impropriety (and fueling speculation about how her previous success at the firm may have been due to Howard's influence, or even rumours about how getting busted down to doc review was the result of a lovers' quarrel).

4. If Jimmy is representative of what Kim finds attractive in a guy, she would be unlikely to find anything attractive in Howard.

As to the first point, are we sure that Howard is married? I don't recall any discussion about it. In The West Wing, Toby Ziegler wears a wedding ring but isn't married. As to the last point, Ilsa doesn't love Victor but goes off with him because it's the "right thing to do".  

[Lurky McLurkerson]

I may have cheered out loud when Howard handled Chuck and his ceremonial send-off.  Who would have though Howard was the selfless one of that pair?  Chuck seems to think that everyone owed him some sort of debt - Jimmy for bailing him out so many times, Howard for the rainmaking Chuck did to build HHM - but those debts are eventually paid and Chuck had no markers to cash in any more, only his own selfish interests.  Good for Howard for ousting him before he could metaphorically burn the firm down.

As I watched and then read through the comments here, I'm kind of wondering if there is a parallel being drawn between Chuck and Hector.  They both have the same bullying, selfish personality, but Chuck is more devious and restrained whereas Hector is all id and bravado.  Chuck lived in a prison of his mental illness, and Hector under the thumb of the cartel - but both seemed to be fighting for control of others around them by force and deception.  By burning their relationships with those around them (Chuck with Howard and Jimmy; Tio Hector with Gus and Nacho), they brought about their own demises -- and this is where I would have liked to see Mike show up because where I really think Mike and Gus connect is their loyalty and cultivation of personal relationships and the long game. 

I think Gus Fring is still my favorite TV villain of all times.  What a fucking long game that guy plays.  Strategic, able to keep his ego out of it, and making personal connections to build his network.  His self-control is amazing.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It's not a great idea, no. But my point is, that's not Howard's plan; that's what Chuck insisted on doing, and more and more he was misleading Howard about the degree to which he was recovered in order to do stuff like that.

I'm not one of the "Chuck is the devil and secretly behind every terrible thing that happens" folks, and I don't really hold Chuck morally culpable for suffering from a severe psychological affliction. But I also don't think we can blame Howard for awkwardly managing Chuck's condition while trying to keep it from affecting his business. He's not keeping Chuck around because he wants to sponge off a crazy man's talents; he tried repeatedly to manage Chuck out of the firm and it didn't work, and he only started to lean on him again as a partner once he seemed to be recovering and demonstrated that he could still kick legal ass. To me that seems more like "Making the best of a bad situation" than "Following a dumb and risky plan."

Hey, I'm not trying to say that managing a largish law firm is easy. This stuff is hard, very hard. But the people who aspire to thse roles also aspire to  large compensation, and if you are willing to deposit the large checks that come with such a job, then it doesnt matter if it is a very hard job, you have to put your shoulder to the wheel, and earn the pay. Howard kept kicking the can down the road with Chuck, because facing the situation head on had very unpleasant  aspects, hence the lowball offers to to get Chuck out, as opposed to adhering to the terms of the partnership. Trying to lowball Charles McGill was never going to work. Now, Howard is adhering to the terms of the partnership agreement, but only after significant damage has been done to the reputation of the firm.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Lurky McLurkerson said:

I may have cheered out loud when Howard handled Chuck and his ceremonial send-off.  Who would have though Howard was the selfless one of that pair?  Chuck seems to think that everyone owed him some sort of debt - Jimmy for bailing him out so many times, Howard for the rainmaking Chuck did to build HHM - but those debts are eventually paid and Chuck had no markers to cash in any more, only his own selfish interests.  Good for Howard for ousting him before he could metaphorically burn the firm down.

As I watched and then read through the comments here, I'm kind of wondering if there is a parallel being drawn between Chuck and Hector.  They both have the same bullying, selfish personality, but Chuck is more devious and restrained whereas Hector is all id and bravado.  Chuck lived in a prison of his mental illness, and Hector under the thumb of the cartel - but both seemed to be fighting for control of others around them by force and deception.  By burning their relationships with those around them (Chuck with Howard and Jimmy; Tio Hector with Gus and Nacho), they brought about their own demises -- and this is where I would have liked to see Mike show up because where I really think Mike and Gus connect is their loyalty and cultivation of personal relationships and the long game. 

I think Gus Fring is still my favorite TV villain of all times.  What a fucking long game that guy plays.  Strategic, able to keep his ego out of it, and making personal connections to build his network.  His self-control is amazing.

Very, very, insightful post, but there is irony in that what will be the demise of Gus is an egotistical need (and make no mistake, a pronounced need for vengeance is ego-driven) to torment an old, speechless, foe restricted to a wheelchair. 

[JudyObscure]

We might have had a foreshadowing of Kim blaming herself for Chuck's death when she brooded over her accident saying, "I might have killed someone!" when most people would have been saying, "I might have killed myself!"  Guilt over Chuck, and her part in his courtroom humiliation, may be the final nail in the coffin of her romance with Jimmy.

I wish my new favorite actor,  Michael McKean, would just shut up!  I didn't want to hear him say Chuck was dead or that Chuck was totally lacking in self-awareness.  I think Chuck does have an occasional  spark  of self-awareness because McKean, himself, showed it to me!  Pah. This is why I don't watch the after shows. 

If McKean is wrong and Chuck is alive I don't think he would be burned.  I think he either jumped up and ran out as the lantern fell or he died.. I don't see how anyone could have been in that inferno and only be hurt.  I've been so caught up in Chuck's illness that I would love a story line where we see him inside a nice psychiatric hospital, slowly getting better and illuminating the McGill childhood through flashbacks and talks with his therapist.

[Captanne]

I didn't see McKean's aftershow but, as I said above, I don't see a role for Chuck after "Lantern".  I think the narrative needs him to be a suicide victim of his very real mental disorder.  It's a legitimate tragedy from beginning to end.  (For me, having him live as a burn victim vegetable cheapens the effect of his act.)

Also, I agree with what you recount of McKean's observations -- I think Chuck had no self-awareness.  He was petty and cruel beyond belief and bouyed on mis-placed self-righteousness.  Howard pointed it out beautifully.  

His behaviour with HHM and Jimmy may have been correctly motivated but they utterly lacked in any kindness.  He had NO IDEA how cruel he was -- and therein lies Hannah Arendt's "banality of evil".  Dangerous stuff, that.

What makes Jimmy's cruelty so palatable (for me) is that he has genuine remorse after it's all said and done. (Which, ironically, Chuck fuckin' nailed in his final, most evil speech to his brother.)

[Eulipian 5k]

5 minutes ago, Captanne said:

Also, I agree with what you recount of McKean's observations -- I think Chuck had no self-awareness.  He was petty and cruel beyond belief and bouyed on mis-placed self-righteousness.  Howard pointed it out beautifully.  

It's amazing that Chuck would be so incredulous that Howard would push him out "Over this! Insurance!?" but he would kill himself over a stray current.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Besides the Electric Company, Jimmy is the last person to see or talk to Chuck, so yes, he will be wracked with guilt no matter what.

Which is what Chuck would've wanted Jimmy to feel--for his own good, of course. *sarcasm*

Chuck may have pulled the flame retardant space blanket up over his face while waiting for the neighbors to call 911. Maybe all the holes in the walls would decrease smoke accumulation.

[smorbie]

43 minutes ago, Lurky McLurkerson said:

Gus Fring is still my favorite TV villain of all times

there's a thread begging to be made.  Is there a general forum thread, not related to any show where we could hash that one out?

[Eulipian 5k]

5 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Chuck may have pulled the flame retardant space blanket up over his face while waiting for the neighbors to call 911. Maybe all the holes in the walls would decrease smoke accumulation.

If you wrap a potato in foil and stick it in an oven, what do you get?

Baked Potato.

(or Chuck Roast) With thanks to Gloria's New Chief

[LoneHaranguer]

47 minutes ago, Captanne said:

For me, having him live as a burn victim vegetable cheapens the effect of his act.

Nothing says Chuck has to live any longer than it takes for Jimmy to decide that he's finally(!) done with Chuck and chooses not to call the hospital or try to see him.

[SoothingDave]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Mental illness is quite painful, not only to the patient, but their family members.  I won't pretend to know what it's like for someone to bury a loved one from suicide.  I have seen it with friends and it's horrific.  Often, the family tries to help and/or intervene for years, to no avail.  

 

I don't think it's a given that anyone will know that it was a suicide.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Lurky McLurkerson said:

I may have cheered out loud when Howard handled Chuck and his ceremonial send-off.  Who would have though Howard was the selfless one of that pair?  Chuck seems to think that everyone owed him some sort of debt - Jimmy for bailing him out so many times, Howard for the rainmaking Chuck did to build HHM - but those debts are eventually paid and Chuck had no markers to cash in any more, only his own selfish interests.  Good for Howard for ousting him before he could metaphorically burn the firm down.

As I watched and then read through the comments here, I'm kind of wondering if there is a parallel being drawn between Chuck and Hector.  They both have the same bullying, selfish personality, but Chuck is more devious and restrained whereas Hector is all id and bravado.  Chuck lived in a prison of his mental illness, and Hector under the thumb of the cartel - but both seemed to be fighting for control of others around them by force and deception.  By burning their relationships with those around them (Chuck with Howard and Jimmy; Tio Hector with Gus and Nacho), they brought about their own demises -- and this is where I would have liked to see Mike show up because where I really think Mike and Gus connect is their loyalty and cultivation of personal relationships and the long game. 

I think Gus Fring is still my favorite TV villain of all times.  What a fucking long game that guy plays.  Strategic, able to keep his ego out of it, and making personal connections to build his network.  His self-control is amazing.

I would never peg Chuck as selfless, but not Howard either.  It was a ballsy thing he did, diving into his personal finances, but also in his own self-interest if he didn't want the firm to crash in an ugly public way.  As between Chuck and Hector, Chuck had an actual productive and accomplished life.  He wasn't always the way we've seen him, he had a huge reputation in legal circles.  Not only that, but in his unceremonious (as far as he was experiencing it) leave-taking from HHM, the faces of the people who worked there were looking sincerely appreciative and admiring.  No side-eyeing or snickering or pitying looks.  Chuck must have done a lot of things right for a long time, and Howard acknowledged as much in their final meeting.  Hector I feel pretty sure has always been a dirtbag.

Gus is a favorite of mine, too, but it was his ego that kept him in his long game that went on too long and blew up in his face (sorry, couldn't resist).  We've now seen two instances where he could have watched Hector die, but he had to have it his way.

7 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Nothing says Chuck has to live any longer than it takes for Jimmy to decide that he's finally(!) done with Chuck and chooses not to call the hospital or try to see him.

I actually don't think Jimmy would do that.  He was talking to Kim about Atticus Finch and how that was Chuck's thing, without any apparent bitterness, and that was after Chuck had cut him with his remark about him not mattering.  (I think.  My memory . . .)

[rhys]

I think the space blanket around Chuck was just to keep the electricity at bay. But Chuck still felt wonky so decided to kick the lantern.

I wonder if Chuck would have had a case of wrongful termination against HHM somehow. He was "fired" but he could have claimed disability, no? Course I don't know how that works to be fired from your own partnership.

Edited June 21, 2017 by rhys
Spelink

[MisterBluxom]

It just occurred to me that Chuck may have told his brother that he never really cared much about him (or similar words) because he knew he was going to suicide and wanted to make it easier for Jimmy to live with it.

If I was Jimmy and Chuck told me that and then suicided, it wouldn't cause me as much distress (or hardly any distress). If he never said that to me, I would likely feel extremely distressed and perhaps blame myself for his death.

So, by telling Jimmy that, Chuck may have done the same kind of loving act that Jimmy did by letting the mall walkers think he was a big creep too.

I wonder.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, smorbie said:

Hmmm...interesting perspective.  I'm more interested in the actual transformation myself.  

Me too. I hesitated about watching this because I thought "a show about Saul, really?" But then I got hooked on his gradual change. Origin stories can be pretty interesting.

7 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

All that time mastering the Dewey Decimal System;, gone the way of the buggy whip and cassettes?

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Well, there are still a lot of print books on shelves that are arranged and located using Dewey or LC.

Naw, knowledge is never useless. Loved learning the DD system, and it's still in use in libraries. Learning to catalog using the system is/was a lesson in problem solving and analysis. Those skills last, whatever era you're in, and still serve me in my profession which is in current technology. Then again, I have fond memories of a select group of classmates and I challenging each other to assign DDS numbers to very racy (ie completely inappropriate) topics.  Hated LC though, it's less logical than Dewey, imo. Somehow, numbers are clearer than the combination of numbers and letters.

I never thought for a moment that Chuck wasn't killed in the fire, so I didn't see that as a cliffhanger as much as a solid end point. 

14 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

It just occurred to me that Chuck may have told his brother that he never really cared much about him (or similar words) because he knew he was going to suicide and wanted to make it easier for Jimmy to live with it.

I personally don't think Chuck ever wanted to make things easier for his brother - well, not after they were adults anyway. I think Chuck told him exactly how he felt. After all, it was Jimmy who caused him to lose everything (in Chuck's mind, anyway). Not entirely without merit, but without owning any of his own role in it.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Gobi]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

And Chuck will be beaten to death with a baseball bat next season? :)

Well, we already saw the bat....

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I personally don't think Chuck ever wanted to make things easier for his brother - well, not after they were adults anyway. I think Chuck told him exactly how he felt. After all, it was Jimmy who caused him to lose everything (in Chuck's mind, anyway). Not entirely without merit, but without owning any of his own role in it.

It's interesting how they started the episode with that flashback to when Chuck must have been almost an adult, and still seeming on very good terms with Jimmy.  Jimmy retained his respect for and need to please Chuck up until very recently.  So what went wrong and when?  I keep wondering about what Chuck blurted out in the bar hearing, "since he was nine years old."  What happened when he was nine years old?  It would have been a couple years after the tent scene.  Maybe they were just using it to bookend with how badly things ended up, it could be that simple.  Or maybe they plan to flesh out the breakdown of Chuck's connection to Jimmy, but I think that might be tricky to do with Chuck dead. 

[queenanne]

18 hours ago, Dobian said:

Kudos to the kid who played young Chuck.  When I heard him reading to Jimmy in the tent I knew it wasn't present day Chuck, but it sounded exactly like him.  Great job picking up on the cadence and speech patterns.

I was going to mention that!!  I thought it WAS Michael McKean until they zoomed in.  Good job, kid.

12 hours ago, BetyBee said:

 Francesca was awesome - I wonder what makes her break bad to become a less than awesome admin assistant?  Maybe going back to the DMV makes her break bad.  

I am only assuming that working for Saul must be hell on wheels, because Francesca's perfect at the moment.  She must really hate Saul by the time BB rolls around.

[Ohwell]

I really don't want to see or hear anymore about why or how Chuck and Jimmy fell out.  I was surprised Chuck lasted three seasons, I thought he should have been gone after season 2.  While I know there has to be some reference to him in season 4, an explanation of how he died (please, please let him be dead!) I truly hope that it only takes one show, the premier episode, and then we're done with him.

I'm just tired of hearing the name Chuck!

[Ronin Jackson]

9 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I just don't see how he can skirt anything when his face is all over the place -- bus benches, t.v. commercials, billboards.  Not to mention the legal community of Albuquerque has him on their radar.

 

His face isn't all over the place yet. The bus benches come later. He used a billboard once, temporarily. And all his commercials ran during re-runs of Murder She Wrote. It's hardly out of the realm of possibility that an agent for an insurance company may not be familiar with him. As for as the legal community in ABQ, their opinion of him isn't going to matter to the clientele he will soon be targeting-- criminals. In fact that may be the one market left where his unsavory reputation wouldn't effect, and perhaps even could enhance, his credibility. It's actually clear from what we know of him in BB that he will eventually take his reputation and embrace it, transform it into something that would appeal to his new clientele.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Ronin Jackson said:

His face isn't all over the place yet. The bus benches come later. He used a billboard once, temporarily. And all his commercials ran during re-runs of Murder She Wrote. It's hardly out of the realm of possibility that an agent for an insurance company may not be familiar with him. As for as the legal community in ABQ, their opinion of him isn't going to matter to the clientele he will soon be targeting-- criminals. In fact that may be the one market left where his unsavory reputation wouldn't effect, and perhaps even could enhance, his credibility. It's actually clear from what we know of him in BB that he will eventually take his reputation and embrace it, transform it into something that would appeal to his new clientele.

You're right, the bus benches are in the future.  I was replying to a comment about him being able to skirt an insurance hike.  I don't think a malpractice policy would be issued without verification of admission to the bar, and that's when his disciplinary status would be discovered.   As to the legal community, their opinion of him isn't what I was talking about, rather the fact that everyone in Albuquerque who has dealt with him will know who he used to be known as. 

On another topic, I must have missed something about the meeting with Hector and Gus and Juan Bolsa -- did Victor say to Nacho "did you get my message"?  I don't get what happened there, did Nacho not know there was going to be a meeting? 

[J----av]

On 2017-06-20 at 0:40 AM, benteen said:

My only issue tonight if that while they've set up a lot of things for Jimmy to become Saul, it still feels like they are ultimately dragging their feet with it.  I keep wondering if they'll still be pulling back by the end of last season.  It's clear by his first appearance in Breaking Bad that he's been Saul for quite a while.  I want to see that on the show and not have to wait until the last episode for him to become Full Saul.

 

 It took 4 full seasons for Walt to become Heisenberg. It will probably take the same for Jimmy to become Saul. Vince Gilligan will take his time and do Jimmy's transformation the right way

[peacockblue]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I really don't want to see or hear anymore about why or how Chuck and Jimmy fell out.  I was surprised Chuck lasted three seasons, I thought he should have been gone after season 2.  While I know there has to be some reference to him in season 4, an explanation of how he died (please, please let him be dead!) I truly hope that it only takes one show, the premier episode, and then we're done with him.

I'm just tired of hearing the name Chuck!

I keep seeing people say Chuck could be alive.

-He didn't leave a note, how can they prove suicide? it could have been an accident! 

-He could have jumped up and ran(?) 

He was kicking the lamp because he tied himself to the chair to prevent his own escape.... Correct me if I'm wrong--Gracias    

[Irlandesa]

14 hours ago, smorbie said:

It reminds of an episode of Talking Dead that aired right after the group lost the prison.  Judith, the baby, was missing and the writers kept talking about how much blood there was in her carrier.  The callers were saying she wasn't dead and Hardwick agreed.  The writers just looked stunned and kept talking about the blood...,

And, no, she wasn't dead.

 

The cast and writers all talk of Chuck as if he were dead but don't want to commit 100% to it because they haven't started writing the next season.  I think they love MM and if they could think of a good reason to keep him alive, they want to leave themselves that option.  I put the odds of that happening at about 1%.

So I think this is the opposite of the S3 finale of Breaking Bad which TPTB meant to be definitive but some viewers thought it was vague.  I think this was meant to be vague but is pretty definitive.

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Did anyone else get the feeling that Franchesca really liked working for Kim but was meh about working for Jimmy? Of course we know she works for Saul in the future, so the dmv must hell on wheels.

Yes.  That was a nice twist.  She started out seeming like she was more into Jimmy but I definitely felt it was harder for her to leave Kim in this episode.

11 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

As to the first point, are we sure that Howard is married? I don't recall any discussion about it. In The West Wing, Toby Ziegler wears a wedding ring but isn't married. As to the last point, Ilsa doesn't love Victor but goes off with him because it's the "right thing to do".  

Sure?  No.  I don't think he has ever talked about his home life. It's possible he's divorced who still wears his ring, like Toby and Chuck, or a widower.  But barring more information, I think it's safe to assume he's married since they're really specific about how they dress the characters. 

ETA:  However,  I could see his circumstances changing because if my husband were to empty out bank accounts just to save his firm....I dunno.

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

You're right, the bus benches are in the future.  I was replying to a comment about him being able to skirt an insurance hike.  I don't think a malpractice policy would be issued without verification of admission to the bar, and that's when his disciplinary status would be discovered.   As to the legal community, their opinion of him isn't what I was talking about, rather the fact that everyone in Albuquerque who has dealt with him will know who he used to be known as.

Right.  Or a social security number.  I suppose he could try and fake that but I just think Saul is going to be a brand.  He's not going to pretend he never was Jimmy.

Quote

On another topic, I must have missed something about the meeting with Hector and Gus and Juan Bolsa -- did Victor say to Nacho "did you get my message"?  I don't get what happened there, did Nacho not know there was going to be a meeting? 

I think they did contact Nacho but Nacho didn't get the message.  If he had, I don't think he would have tried to take that opportunity to kill Hector.  I think he seemed a bit uncomfortable when the guys walked up but was relieved when they acted as if they expected him.  He didn't have to come up with a reason why he was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Christina]

Not only did I not think Chuck died at the end of the episode, when Gould said they hadn't written Season 4 yet and if he dies, they will bring him back in flashbacks, I decided that the whole thing is a contract matter with Michael McKean. I've now read the NY Times article where Michael McKean says in absolute terms that Chuck is dead, but they want to bring him back in flashbacks, and still don't think he is dead. Mostly, because I don't see any reason to bring him back in flashbacks. If he is dead, his story should be over and they can have Jimmy/Saul blaming himself without flashbacks. I'm one who didn't mind Chuck's character all that much, and thought they did a great job showing mental illness and how an asshole is still an asshole even if you remove the mental illness, and the mental illness doesn't excuse his assholishness. Chuck was a great "bad guy" and the type of bad guy most of us will come in contact with, as opposed to the Salamanca's type.

I don't think he will be all burned and in intensive care, but will be committed to a psychiatric facility where Jimmy is asked to come and take part in family counseling, so that they can continue irritating each other and the rest of us. Chuck committing suicide by house fire seems out of character for a man so rigid. He's in the throes of a psychotic break, not thinking rationally, yet sets papers and a gas lamp up on a table, wraps himself in a space blanket, and kicks until the lamp sets the place on fire? There is an amount of thought in that process, and you can think up complex plans with mental illness, but this was supposedly a recent break and he had a bottle of pills available that he could have "accidently" overdosed on if he wanted to make it seem accidental. Wanting to burn himself to death? He hasn't shown any desire to self-harm or cause himself injury in the past, so it seems too extreme to me for that to be his suicide plan. And frankly, I think the show owes the character a better out. If he had electrocuted himself while tearing up his house, that would make sense to me, but if his end is death by fire, I'm going to consider it a major misstep by the show.

A few weeks ago, I read an article where someone was asked about only having ten episode season, and the response, probably by Gould but I certainly don't remember for certain, said that while the viewers get ten weeks, the scripts are dialog and emotion heavy, and it takes a lot out of the actors, and interferes with their lives and any other work they want to take on. That is part of the reason I think it is going to be an availability issue with McKean, who I also hopes gets an Emmy this year. If Chuck is dead, I hope they move on from him.

[millennium]

On 6/19/2017 at 11:52 PM, TVFan17 said:

I think that we are supposed to think that Chuck is dead.  I have my doubts, though.  He could get out of the burning house.

That space blanket will like totally protect Chuck.   I saw this awesome episode of Lost In Space  where the Robinsons have to survive a supernova so they bundle themselves up in space blankets and take a siesta.  Worst thing that happens?   They wake up thirsty.    Salud, Chuck!

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Christina said:

I don't think he will be all burned and in intensive care, but will be committed to a psychiatric facility where Jimmy is asked to come and take part in family counseling, so that they can continue irritating each other and the rest of us. Chuck committing suicide by house fire seems out of character for a man so rigid. He's in the throes of a psychotic break, not thinking rationally, yet sets papers and a gas lamp up on a table, wraps himself in a space blanket, and kicks until the lamp sets the place on fire? There is an amount of thought in that process, and you can think up complex plans with mental illness, but this was supposedly a recent break and he had a bottle of pills available that he could have "accidently" overdosed on if he wanted to make it seem accidental. Wanting to burn himself to death? He hasn't shown any desire to self-harm or cause himself injury in the past, so it seems too extreme to me for that to be his suicide plan. And frankly, I think the show owes the character a better out. If he had electrocuted himself while tearing up his house, that would make sense to me, but if his end is death by fire, I'm going to consider it a major misstep by the show.

I see what you're saying, but what was he doing then? 

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

That space blanket will like totally protect Chuck.   I saw this awesome episode of Lost In Space  where the Robinsons have to survive a supernova so they bundle themselves up in space blankets and take a siesta.  Worst thing that happens?   They wake up thirsty.    Salud, Chuck!

Well, yeah, that could totally happen.  lost is space is a documentary.  :)

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I see what you're saying, but what was he doing then? 

I don't think it started out as a suicide attempt.  I think he set the lantern up, set the whole house up the way it used to be and sat down. Then he started thinking.  He probably thought about how far he "progressed" even though it was just a false progression based upon the fact that he was finally getting help.  Then he considered how quickly he had fallen back, deeper than he was before, because now he has all these holes in his walls, a brother he has tossed away, and no job to look forward to (also no lackey from the job being assigned to take care of him).  He probably thought about what he had done to his house, his wife, his brother, his life.  And, he felt the physical pain he can't escape.  It didn't help that he knows it's in his head, the pain is physical.

And he felt tired.  And he felt done.  And he kicked the table because the stupid lantern was on it and he hated the things the lantern said about him.  And it felt kind of good to kick the table.  And.....if he kicked the table and the lantern fell over, that wasn't his fault.

Edited June 22, 2017 by smorbie

[Bryce Lynch]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It's interesting how they started the episode with that flashback to when Chuck must have been almost an adult, and still seeming on very good terms with Jimmy.  Jimmy retained his respect for and need to please Chuck up until very recently.  So what went wrong and when?  I keep wondering about what Chuck blurted out in the bar hearing, "since he was nine years old."  What happened when he was nine years old?  It would have been a couple years after the tent scene.  Maybe they were just using it to bookend with how badly things ended up, it could be that simple.  Or maybe they plan to flesh out the breakdown of Chuck's connection to Jimmy, but I think that might be tricky to do with Chuck dead. 

Chuck might have been referring to the age where Jimmy started stealing from their father's store.  How old did Jimmy seem to be in the flashback when he first stole, after the con artists gave him the "sheep and wolves" speech?  

[smorbie]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck might have been referring to the age where Jimmy started stealing from their father's store.  How old did Jimmy seem to be in the flashback when he first stole, after the con artists gave him the "sheep and wolves" speech?  

I know.  I thought about that, too. And it really does seem there was some catalyst to his burning hatred.  But...how did he know Jimmy first started slippin at nine?  That's an awfully specific date to point to.  Did he catch him stealing?  And why wouldn't he have tried to steer Jimmy back from that mindset?  He obviously had a big influence on his baby brother.  He could have taken him under his wing and corrected Jimmy's thinking.  Jimmy would have listened because Chuck was his BIG brother and he would have wanted to please him.

There's something more there.  I would love to know what it was.