Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Minneapple]

6 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Their spoilers seem to be out of order, with the episode 3 battle bleeding into the episode 5 battle spoilers. I doubt Jon would fight Viserion twice in the same exact manner. 

Yes, they are kind of a mishmash and somewhat incoherent and incomplete. But what's there has been accurate thus far. And it matches other more recent leaks.

[Couver]

Also why aren't Dany's advisors taking any accountability? When we first meet Dany she isn't after the IT. Key people moved her toward that and then she began desiring it. Varys and Tyrion having moral outrage now given their pasts is laughable.

Dany has listened to their advise and in doing so Cersei has killed so many. So isn't that on Dany's advising council? But apparently some of them get to rule at the end? LOL.

[spaceghostess]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why not the front? "The Lannisters Starks send their regards."

I rewatched the 8x05 promo, and in that shot of Tyrion  tentatively approaching Dany at Dragonstone, you can see that her hair is undone and completely loose and frizzy. Her hair hasn't looked that wild since her capture by the Dothraki. That's...not a good sign. (I don't know if this is before or after Dany putting her hair in a battle braid and wearing a dark outfit as seen in one of the preseason promos).

Didn't she and Missandei used to do each other's hair? I seem to remember scenes in Essos that showed this, in particular the one in which they're discussing Missandei's relationship with Grey Worm. Has Dany been shown with a lady's maid since Doreah and her other murdered maid? The wild hair may simply signify grief and the absence of her best friend*, but it's easy enough to also see it as a sign of her further tipping over the edge (sigh).

*It could also be a sign of humidity, as my own whacked-out hair May through August can attest.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Couver said:

Also why aren't Dany's advisors taking any accountability? When we first meet Dany she isn't after the IT. Key people moved her toward that and then she began desiring it. Varys and Tyrion having moral outrage now given their pasts is laughable.

Dany has listened to their advise and in doing so Cersei has killed so many. So isn't that on Dany's advising council? But apparently some of them get to rule at the end? LOL.

The show has never been able to square the circle of acknowledging how often Tyrion’s plans have failed while still treating him as the wise counsellor that Dany ignores at her peril.

Varys has been utterly useless the last two seasons.  All he does is complain about anything Dany wants to do. 

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

If the god-King Bran ending is true, I think that’s going to damage the show’s reputation in a few different ways

It would be too close to Dune for me

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Why not the front? "The Lannisters Starks send their regards."

If they are going to parallel her to her father might as well go all the way. I don't like the idea, but there it is. Simply for the fact that it would put Jon in Jaime's shoes. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Couver said:

Also why aren't Dany's advisors taking any accountability? When we first meet Dany she isn't after the IT.

No, her brother is.

From the moment she has her husband murder that worthless little shit, Dany has wanted the IT for herself.  It's been her only goal, everything else she's done was only in preparation to get it.  She not only felt it was her right and her destiny, she felt it was her duty, and that she would be greeted with cheers and love when she returned to Westeros.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Umbelina
ed

[LoveLeigh]

3 hours ago, Jextella said:

I read another theory elsewhere that was interesting.  Arya kills Cersei but then fights with Cersei's face so that Dany can reveal her true colors enough to where Jon won't want her to take the throne and he fights to stop her.

I do think Arya will make use of her "training" and appear in the next battle wearing a face. Dany is no good.... she killed Sam's father and brother because they would not "bend the knee." She is power hungry. She has layers but she has to go.

Who is "all good?" Bran is good but I do not see him sitting on the Iron Throne. He is a "sidekick."

I think all signs point to Arya... but on the other hand I think most of them will be dead so it will be the Atlantis of that world. 

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

Robert: started a war because he was jilted. Got to be king. Good guy Ned Stark, moral backbone of the show, served him and remained his bestie, agreed to marry his daughter to Robert's spawn.

Robert didn't go to war until the king came after him. Which happened because Brandon stupidly went down to King's landing and threatened to kill the king.

I can see what the writers were going for, but they clearly needed another year to build up her madness because her going mad in an episode and a half aint gonna work.

Also, how is Dany's plan of going right for the throne considered less humane than tyrions plan of starving the citizens? These writers have no idea what they're doing.

If they wanted to prolong the series they should've sent dany and crew north right away without the failures and spent the last year watching Cersei build up her army. Instead we're getting a rushed war, an epilogue that's gonna make nobody but the casual fans happy because its not true to any of the characters. What could've been.

[Wendy]

40 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

No, her brother is.

From the moment she has her husband murder that worthless little shit, Dany has wanted the IT for herself.  It's been her only goal, everything else she's done was only in preparation to get it.  She not only felt it was her right and her destiny, she felt it was her duty, and that she would be greeted with cheers and love when she returned to Westeros.

Exactly. 

Viserys was the one who wanted to be the King. After he died Dany said that with her being the last Targeryan then it should be her, then she got pregnant so it would be her son. 

She kept trying to rush Drogo about getting ships to go to Westeros with the Dotraki but Drago was taking his sweet time. Then there comes the wine poisoned attempt on her life and that is when Drogo lost it and promised her that he will get them there and their son would sit on the Iron Throne. Up to that point it was the son they were making plans for, Drogo and his hordes started ravaging entire cities and when Daenerys raised her concern Jorah told her that Drogo needed money for the ships so that is the way they were getting it. In the book Dany has some remorse because her request for the IT has gotten so many people killed but in the show it was glossed over. It is in one of those ravaging missions that Drogo got hurt and then fell ill. 

Later when the dragons were hatched she kept thinking about how to reach Westeros but Jorah (her voice of reason) kept reminder her that she wasn't ready. She didn't have the soldiers, the ships, the money and the dragons were still little, she needed to bid her time. Time and time again, after every city, after every army gotten, she kept insisting she needed to get to Westeros but Jorah kept insisting she wasn't ready.  It took her a while to be ready but as soon as she was then she came to Westeros. 

Every since the moment she hatched her dragons her single minded thought has always been to arrive to Westeros and claim the IT with Fire and Blood. She said it herself, numerous times. People decided to romanticize her and now are pretending that this came from nowhere but all the signs have been there. I would suggest to watch the series since the beginning but that won't help because D&D whitewashed Daenerys so much that she really came across as the heroine that was needed. The books however are more realistic about her slow progression into an all consuming desire to sit on the IT.  D&D have no-one to blame but themselves, they probably thought they would be able to convince GRRM to change his ending but GRRM would not bulge and this is the mess they have in their hands.

Had D&D been more realistic about the utter chaos that ensued  every time that Daenerys conquered a territory but had no systems to support the new liberated people, then that probably would have provided some context to what is happening right now. Her own lover Dario, the one who knew her the best at the time, told her that she was a conqueror, not a ruler and he was 100% correct. 

Now she has let Cersei dragged her to her game and the loser as always will be the small folk. That is exactly the point that GRRM has always tried to make, the nobility always played the game of thrones and the ones who pay the price are always the people who have the least power, the ones who get drag one way or the other. I am perfectly fine with the IT being gone and a small council advising only in case of trade or disputes, for the most part each of the 7th kingdoms should be independent and eventually transition into some form of democracy. 

[mirsk1]

3 minutes ago, Wendy said:

Exactly. 

Viserys was the one who wanted to be the King. After he died Dany said that with her being the last Targeryan then it should be her, then she got pregnant so it would be her son. 

She kept trying to rush Drogo about getting ships to go to Westeros with the Dotraki but Drago was taking his sweet time. Then there comes the wine poisoned attempt on her life and that is when Drogo lost it and promised her that he will get them there and their son would sit on the Iron Throne. Up to that point it was the son they were making plans for, Drogo and his hordes started ravaging entire cities and when Daenerys raised her concern Jorah told her that Drogo needed money for the ships so that is the way they were getting it. In the book Dany has some remorse because her request for the IT has gotten so many people killed but in the show it was glossed over. It is in one of those ravaging missions that Drogo got hurt and then fell ill. 

Later when the dragons were hatched she kept thinking about how to reach Westeros but Jorah (her voice of reason) kept reminder her that she wasn't ready. She didn't have the soldiers, the ships, the money and the dragons were still little, she needed to bid her time. Time and time again, after every city, after every army gotten, she kept insisting she needed to get to Westeros but Jorah kept insisting she wasn't ready.  It took her a while to be ready but as soon as she was then she came to Westeros. 

Every since the moment she hatched her dragons her single minded thought has always been to arrive to Westeros and claim the IT with Fire and Blood. She said it herself, numerous times. People decided to romanticize her and now are pretending that this came from nowhere but all the signs have been there. I would suggest to watch the series since the beginning but that won't help because D&D whitewashed Daenerys so much that she really came across as the heroine that was needed. The books however are more realistic about her slow progression into an all consuming desire to sit on the IT.  D&D have no-one to blame but themselves, they probably thought they would be able to convince GRRM to change his ending but GRRM would not bulge and this is the mess they have in their hands.

Had D&D been more realistic about the utter chaos that ensued  every time that Daenerys conquered a territory but had no systems to support the new liberated people, then that probably would have provided some context to what is happening right now. Her own lover Dario, the one who knew her the best at the time, told her that she was a conqueror, not a ruler and he was 100% correct. 

Now she has let Cersei dragged her to her game and the loser as always will be the small folk. That is exactly the point that GRRM has always tried to make, the nobility always played the game of thrones and the ones who pay the price are always the people who have the least power, the ones who get drag one way or the other. I am perfectly fine with the IT being gone and a small council advising only in case of trade or disputes, for the most part each of the 7th kingdoms should be independent and eventually transition into some form of democracy. 

Great post.  ITA. 

[Wouter]

More (f)leaks from Simon, who claims to be leaker with a heart for the show (and who predicts that Drogon will get armoured by Gendry in ep5):

"I don’t know what Emilia knows. She might know the actual ending but I only know which scenes she shot. And one is back to the roots, one is sad for D one is ok"

Iron throne: "Multiple endings in one it’s destroyed"

"I can confirm Arya does not kill anyone when she’s in KL next episode" [ep5; implying she may kill in ep.6 in a later post)

Tyrion: "Multiple endings he is on trial in one of them"

[Minneapple]

I eagerly await tomorrow's release of the photos which are stills from the promo.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Wendy said:

D&D whitewashed Daenerys so much that she really came across as the heroine that was needed.

Um... no. 

D & D completely inverted Dany's arc post- season 1. She didn't lock Doreah and Quarth up in a dungeon - in fact all of her original khalasar except Doreah who died of hunger during the initial wandering of the Red Sea are still alive.  She didn't kill the Only Good Master in Mereen when she invaded. She didn't ride Drogon to escape an attack on her but to save him from a trap for him. In the books, Dany is failing in Mereen not because she's too ruthless but because she's not ruthless enough. The show needed Jorah (who wasn't hot, silky-voiced Iain Glen but a lecherous old man with a pot belly) to be useful so they gave all Dany's inner thoughts to him. So instead of Dany articulating stuff that she already knew, Jorah had to teach her these things, making her look stupid. 

Ad nauseum. There are so many examples of the subtle and not-so-subtle negative changes of Dany from book to show that they'd be too numerous to mention. 

And yes, Dany wanted to go back to Westeros and "oust" the usurper. Why shouldn't she?  She was driven out of her home and turned into a beggar, then a slave because of this man. Her brother's children were brutally murdered. Even after she married into the Dothraki, he was hunting her and would probably send assassins after her babies. If Robb Stark could wage war to release his father from prison (Note: at the time Robb called his banners, he had no confirmation that Ned was arrested falsely or that the accusations of treason were false. He called Lord Umber an oathbreaker for threatening not to join forces even though Umber also swore an oath to the Iron Throne)... if in the show, Sansa Stark can wage war to regain Winterfell and the North, why the heck shouldn't Dany? Nobody ever points out that Sansa and Jon invaded the North with an army of foreigners (wildlings, and the Vale) and traitors (all 63 Mormont men) against the wishes of the majority of the Northern Lords. 

If anything D & D demonised Dany. Burning the Tarlys is implausible because they were Targaryen loyalists. Somehow grown Dickon Tarly choosing execution is more sympathetic than ten-year-old Olly being executed by Jon (even though by Jon's own admission - he's technically no longer Lord Commander at the time he passes the sentence). The fate of the poor Lannister soldiers is discussed but there were no Ed Sheeran cameos in the Bolton army. I wonder why. 

D & D set up Dany to fail, not the other way around. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[GraceK]

13 minutes ago, ursula said:

Um... no. 

D & D completely inverted Dany's arc post- season 1. She didn't lock Doreah and Quarth up in a dungeon - in fact all of her original khalasar except Doreah who died of hunger during the initial wandering of the Red Sea are still alive.  She didn't kill the Only Good Master in Mereen when she invaded. She didn't ride Drogon to escape an attack on her but to save him from a trap for him. In the books, Dany is failing in Mereen not because she's too ruthless but because she's not ruthless enough. The show needed Jorah (who wasn't hot, silky-voiced Iain Glen but a lecherous old man with a pot belly) to be useful so they gave all Dany's inner thoughts to him. So instead of Dany articulating stuff that she already knew, Jorah had to teach her these things, making her look stupid. 

Ad nauseum. There are so many examples of the subtle and not-so-subtle negative changes of Dany from book to show that they'd be too numerous to mention. 

And yes, Dany wanted to go back to Westeros and "oust" the usurper. Why shouldn't she?  She was driven out of her home and turned into a beggar, then a slave because of this man. Her brother's children were brutally murdered. Even after she married into the Dothraki, he was hunting her and would probably send assassins after her babies. If Sansa Stark can wage war to regain Winterfell and the North, why the heck shouldn't Dany? Nobody ever points out that Sansa and Jon invaded the North with an army of foreigners (wildlings, and the Vale) and traitors (all 63 Mormont men) against the wishes of the majority of the Northern Lords. 

If anything D & D demonised Dany. Burning the Tarlys is implausible because they were Targaryen loyalists. Somehow grown Dickon Tarly choosing execution is more sympathetic than ten-year-old Olly being executed by Jon (even though by Jon's own admission - he's technically no longer Lord Commander at the time he passes the sentence). The fate of the poor Lannister soldiers is discussed but there were no Ed Sheeran cameos in the Bolton army. I wonder why. 

Thank you!! Preach it!!! They use Aerys being a tyrant king to justify the slaughter of Danys family like Rhaegar would have been the same, forgetting that the Kingdom was in fact looking forward to his rule , including Jaime Lannister who regrets not protecting his children. Varys was whispering poison and plotting a lot of things behind closed doors as well in the books, he’s a much more villainous character. Book Daenarys is practically a cinnamon roll in comparison, so this idea that her arc has been leading to a “ mad queen villain all along” doesn’t actually make sense. Even with the changes to her show character, it still feels like bullshit to  most viewers, some of the fans who don’t even like her are pushing back at the way her character has been  treated this season. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[mirsk1]

I read all the (f)leaks from Simon who supposedly was privy to episode 6, and most of his answers are vague or "I can't say" or multiple endings were filmed.  You mean to tell me that most of the actors filmed multiple endings?  And exactly how many endings were filmed?  He first said 3, then 5 then multiple. 

In one of his answers today, he said that Yara dies, killed by the GC.  However, Gemma Whalen was supposedly filming the dragon pit scene in Seville.

Also, when someone asked if the faceless man makes an appearance, he answers that the faceless man is the third wtf twist.  Then a few pages later when that same question was asked, he responded that the faceless man would not be making an appearance!  Huh?  Someone called him out on it, and his reply was that he was confused by the numbering of the question or some such bs.

I also got the impression from some of his answers, that he hates Jon, so a lot of his answers are biased against Jon.  For example, someone asked him in his opinion, what character escaped a horrible fate that should have befallen him, and his response was Jon.  Why Jon?    I dunno, I think he is another (f)leaker.  He might know some things, but I think he likes attention and is embellishing.  Kaysen (who I think is one of the moderators of free folk)? already said that it's bs.  He never went through the moderators to show that he was legit, so I am skeptical. 

[MarySNJ]

5 hours ago, Chiny11 said:

Good points.  Question....has Jon ever told Dany he loved her on screen? 

Hmm... good question. Sansa has confirmed that Jon loved Dany (to Dany) and I know that Kit Harington has confirmed that Dany is the love of Jon’s life but I’m not sure it’s been in the dialogue between Jon and Dany.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Hmm... good question. I know that Kit Harington has confirmed that Dany is the love of his life but I’m not it’s been in the dialogue. 

That seems to have been a very deliberate choice on the part of the writers in my opinion. It's also notable in my opinion Dany only busts out "I love you" when she's trying to persuade Jon to keep his claim secret.

I think I said this upthread, but the writers' mediocre Jon/Dany romance writing makes a lot more sense in light of 8x04. The writers were never committed their powers 100% to writing a beautiful romance, because they always knew things would go wrong in the worst possible way. Similarly, when 8x01 and 8x02 aired, I thought the Gendry/Arya flirting was forced and the sex scene was weirdly clinical and unsexy. In retrospect, it was never meant to be the stuff of compelling endgame romance, just another step on Arya's journey, and that explains the way it was written. 

Sansa/Tyrion seems to have much more of a slow burn in S8 (...assuming I'm right about it), although with the characters now separated and what appears to be essentially a Sansa-free KL bottle episode and the epilogue coming up, I'm not sure that much more can happen before the end, unless it's a Hail Mary last-minute declaration thing. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Eyes High

[absnow54]

14 minutes ago, mirsk1 said:

I read all the (f)leaks from Simon who supposedly was privy to episode 6, and most of his answers are vague or "I can't say" or multiple endings were filmed.  You mean to tell me that most of the actors filmed multiple endings?  And exactly how many endings were filmed?  He first said 3, then 5 then multiple. 

They at least have a solid detail about Gendry building armor for Drogon that can be confirmed or debunked in Sunday's episode, but all of their "leaks" seem to be generic with "multiple endings" that could pretty much cover any scenario, so I'm not sure how much of it qualifies as a spoiler, when they're basically saying anyone could end up on the Iron Throne. 

[Meredith Quill]

Enjoy:

I laughed. 🤣

[Minneapple]

13 minutes ago, mirsk1 said:

I read all the (f)leaks from Simon who supposedly was privy to episode 6, and most of his answers are vague or "I can't say" or multiple endings were filmed.  You mean to tell me that most of the actors filmed multiple endings?  And exactly how many endings were filmed?  He first said 3, then 5 then multiple. 

In one of his answers today, he said that Yara dies, killed by the GC.  However, Gemma Whalen was supposedly filming the dragon pit scene in Seville.

Also, when someone asked if the faceless man makes an appearance, he answers that the faceless man is the third wtf twist.  Then a few pages later when that same question was asked, he responded that the faceless man would not be making an appearance!  Huh?  Someone called him out on it, and his reply was that he was confused by the numbering of the question or some such bs.

I also got the impression from some of his answers, that he hates Jon, so a lot of his answers are biased against Jon.  For example, someone asked him in his opinion, what character escaped a horrible fate that should have befallen him, and his response was Jon.  Why Jon?    I dunno, I think he is another (f)leaker.  He might know some things, but I think he likes attention and is embellishing.  Kaysen (who I think is one of the moderators of free folk)? already said that it's bs.  He never went through the moderators to show that he was legit, so I am skeptical. 

Yeah, this guy does not seem trustworthy to me. He plays coy and is very vague, and some of his answers do not match up with what previous (accurate) leakers have posted. He says that the actors filmed multiple endings and even some of them don't know how it ended when it's pretty clear the actors do know how it ends, and moreover it would be completely unfair to not let the actors know the real story.

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, bijoux said:

 I don't like the idea, but there it is. Simply for the fact that it would put Jon in Jaime's shoes. 

Not that any of this makes no sense, but there is no reason to put Jon - or anyone - in Jaime’s shoes by stabbing Dany in the back. It is going to be totally face to face because they will never pass the chance of both watching what they are doing.

[Stallion12]

I was hoping he was real since he said the bran thing isn't happening.

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It would be too close to Dune for me

In addition to which, where is there any free will at all if Bran knows everything?

[MissLucas]

I think he's genuine - some of the confusing answers can be explained by specific wording. For example someone asked if Tom Wlaschiha returns and he said 'no, he doesn't' - but then he said that yes, Jaqen returns (just an example - not sure that's how it went down - but he does enjoy hair-splitting). 

When pushed he made one specific comment on E5: Arya will be in KL but she won't kill anyone. He claims that as some sort of litmus test.

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I think he's genuine - some of the confusing answers can be explained by specific wording. For example someone asked if Tom Wlaschiha returns and he said 'no, he doesn't' - but then he said that yes, Jaqen returns (just an example - not sure that's how it went down - but he does enjoy hair-splitting). 

When pushed he made one specific comment on E5: Arya will be in KL but she won't kill anyone. He claims that as some sort of litmus test.

What if she kills someone using a face?

Has someone spoiled the Brienne/Jaime sex?

[Minneapple]

9 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

When pushed he made one specific comment on E5: Arya will be in KL but she won't kill anyone. He claims that as some sort of litmus test.

Arya being in King's Landing has been leaked by at least one or two other people, the one I linked on the last page also had the accurate information about Viserion and Missandei. 

I mean I guess he could know stuff. But his playing coy, being vague, covering his bases by saying stuff like "maybe, in one ending," and saying that they filmed six(!) endings seems suspicious to me. I don't believe they would film six endings and then go "eeny meeny meinie moe" and choose one. That's expensive and a waste of everyone's time.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Minneapple

[MissLucas]

5 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

What if she kills someone using a face?

Has someone spoiled the Brienne/Jaime sex?

I don't think he was ever asked that specifically (he claims she'll have her kill in E6).

Brienne/Jaime has been spoiled by several leakers.

[Moxie Cat]

53 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

They at least have a solid detail about Gendry building armor for Drogon that can be confirmed or debunked in Sunday's episode

Finally a spoiler I am excited about. And if the leaks are true that Drogon annihilates KL (with the help of the wildfire, which I totally buy, because Cersei), it only makes sense that he is armored in a way that subverts the scorpion arrows.

Please, please let them show a scene where everyone tries to put the armor on Drogon!

[onyxrose81]

I just...why wouldn't anyone think about dragon armor after Viserion?   It makes no sense my gawd.  These characters are written so horribly.  

[GraceK]

This made me laugh 

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[kittykat]

8 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Finally a spoiler I am excited about. And if the leaks are true that Drogon annihilates KL (with the help of the wildfire, which I totally buy, because Cersei), it only makes sense that he is armored in a way that subverts the scorpion arrows.

Please, please let them show a scene where everyone tries to put the armor on Drogon!

hahaha I vote for Davos.  He'd probably try to pet his head all "nice dragon."  Besides, who doesn't like Davos.

If Jaime does kill Cersei (which going by different leaks is 50/50) it could be because of her choice to use wildfire.  He killed one ruler to prevent the annihilation of KL and now kills another because he was too late and too blindly in love.  Dany may take the fall for KLs demise but Jaime will truly know it was Cersei.  Could be a fitting ending for the redemption that wasn't.

If Tyrion is put on trial by Dany I'm guessing it will be because he helped both siblings escape.  I also can buy that if Dany is going all "banish or kill everyone that defied me" once she gets the crown (I'm Team No Throne!) she'll expect Jon to show his loyalty by giving her Sansa and that is something he won't do, which may lead to Jon offing Dany.  Apparently I am also Team Unpopular Opinion because I'm liking some of the speculations most people hate and I'm one of like three people in the world that didn't hate 8.4.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, Wendy said:

She kept trying to rush Drogo about getting ships to go to Westeros with the Dotraki but Drago was taking his sweet time. Then there comes the wine poisoned attempt on her life and that is when Drogo lost it and promised her that he will get them there and their son would sit on the Iron Throne. Up to that point it was the son they were making plans for, Drogo and his hordes started ravaging entire cities and when Daenerys raised her concern Jorah told her that Drogo needed money for the ships so that is the way they were getting it. In the book Dany has some remorse because her request for the IT has gotten so many people killed but in the show it was glossed over. It is in one of those ravaging missions that Drogo got hurt and then fell ill. 

Yes, thank you. It was always there. I think the biggest sign for me was that Dany slapped the slave she "saved" from rape in Book 1, simply because she said Drogo fell from his horse. It's a perfect encapsulation of her weird morality - one step forward, two steps back. Bothered by violence while inflicting it at the same time. A contradictory mix of savior and conqueror--which Mirri tries to tell her is an oxymoron. I thought in E4 she would drop all pretense of being a "savior" but she's still keeping a front of "saving the world from tyrants" or whatever b.s. justification she's using now. Cersei is trying to drive her down to her level and expose her hypocrisy to all of Westeros -- and Dany is taking the bait.

Slapping her servant also parallels Tyrion who slaps Shae. These abusive tendencies are coming out in her relationship with Jon. She wants to dictate his entire identity, just so her throne isn't threatened. She wants to control what he can say to his family members. She wants him to lie in public about who he is so she can secure power. This is textbook "isolating behavior" in the interpersonal violence literature, but with the added element of the most powerful person in the world doing it...I dont even know what to call that.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Leila6]

2 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I'm one of like three people in the world that didn't hate 8.4.

I liked 8.4 a hell of a lot better than 8.3. The Euron thing was asinine, but I did enjoy all the interactions between the characters, and I thought the acting was stellar across the board. I’m hoping MQD is misdirection for the real shock (WTF moment) at the end.  

I hate the JKD idea, but I did get a strong foreshadowing vibe from Jon’s conversation with Tormund that Jon will end up living out his days in the true north with Ghost and the Free Folk. 

8.3 really dashed my hopes for this show, so at this point I’m mainly hoping not to loathe Jon’s end, as he’s my favorite character, and que sera sera for everything else.

[Eyes High]

While confirmation bias is definitely a risk, with 8x04 it looks like the pieces could be being put in place for the surviving character endgames described in the /Throwitaway leaks:

1. King Bran: Tyrion being impressed that Bran doesn't want anything (and Varys telling Tyrion that the ideal ruler might be one who doesn't want to rule), Bronn pointing out that you get to become king if you kill enough people, Varys pointing out the merits of Jon which also apply to Bran (male, blood tie to the Starks that will keep the North in the Seven Kingdoms)

2. Tyrion on the council: Bran/Tyrion conversations (it makes sense to establish a relationship if they're going to be working together)

3. Bronn on the council: Tyrion/Bronn reconciliation, Bronn ending up with Highgarden

4. Davos on the council: friendly Davos/Tyrion conversation showing no ill will (indicating they'll be able to work together despite all the "I killed your son" baggage)

5. Arya leaving Westeros: Arya ending her relationship with Gendry, Arya announcing to Sandor that she doesn't intend to return to Winterfell

6. Jon in the far North: Jon/Tormund conversation (Jon tells Tormund he wishes he were going with him, Tormund tells Jon that he has the "real North" in him and says "You never know" when Jon says goodbye, Jon sends Ghost with Tormund)

7. Sansa ruling the North: Tyrion telling Sansa that with Jon in the capital, she'll be the true power in the North

[kittykat]

3 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

I liked 8.4 a hell of a lot better than 8.3. The Euron thing was asinine, but I did enjoy all the interactions between the characters, and I thought the acting was stellar across the board. I’m hoping MQD is misdirection for the real shock (WTF moment) at the end.  

I hate the JKD idea, but I did get a strong foreshadowing vibe from Jon’s conversation with Tormund that Jon will end up living out his days in the true north with Ghost and the Free Folk. 

8.3 really dashed my hopes for this show, so at this point I’m mainly hoping not to loathe Jon’s end, as he’s my favorite character, and que sera sera for everything else.

I did love 8.3 and knew 4 wasn't going to come close.  But I understand the actions taken.  Dany is 100% to blame for Rhaegal/Missandei.  She fell in the same trap with Cersei that Jon did at BotB.  I don't see Euron as some military genius.  It's common sense that if Dany is going south she is likely to regroup at Dragonstone so that's where he waited.  Euron's an asshole but he is not dumb.

I do like the idea of Jon rejoining Tormund and Ghost in the True North.  I didn't mind both of them being sent away since it meant they were in a very small percentage getting non-death series wraps.

[nikma]

I think Jon didn't have emotional farewell with Ghost because they will be reunited in E6 and that would be pointless then. 

[ursula]

26 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think the biggest sign for me was that Dany slapped the slave she "saved" from rape in Book 1, simply because she said Drogo fell from his horse.

OMG, seriously? That wasn't Dany's best moment but she was a fourteen year old pregnant girl whose husband was dying and her world was literally falling apart around her. It's not like she had a habit of being abusive. Isn't it odd how excuses can be made for Sansa selling out her father for the true love (that had her pet murdered) but a pregnant child bride loses it once and she's irredeemable? 

26 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

These abusive tendencies are coming out in her relationship with Jon. She wants to dictate his entire identity, just so her throne isn't threatened. 

She's not asking him to lie. She's telling him to do nothing, to keep the secret that Ned Stark did for 20+ years or whatever it is in showtime because she knew he had a rat of a sister who didn't give a damn about Jon and would exploit his secret first chance she got. And what do you know? Dany was right. Sansa claimed to be so worried about soldiers "resting" but forwent that to send them into battle with a ticking bomb. One thing that entire plot proved was that Ned was right not to trust Catelyn with the secret and Sansa was 100% her mother's daughter. 

26 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

textbook "isolating behavior"

Dany's the one sitting alone in the hall of Winterfell while Jon is away from her, surrounded by family, Lords and wildlings that are suddenly his best friends. 🙄 Textbook behavior in upside down world, I guess.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[Brn2bwild]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

3. Bronn on the council: Tyrion/Bronn reconciliation, Bronn ending up with Highgarden

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but fuck Bronn.  What remotely virtuous thing has that guy done that he would merit getting Highgarden and a seat at the council table?  Dany gets killed for having ambition, but he gets to keep rising?  Fuck his broish ass.

[ursula]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

What remotely virtuous thing has that guy done that he would merit getting Highgarden and a seat at the council table?  

Being born with a dick.

Because a woman that is less than perfect is a monster.

[SeanC]

32 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

These abusive tendencies are coming out in her relationship with Jon. She wants to dictate his entire identity, just so her throne isn't threatened. She wants to control what he can say to his family members. She wants him to lie in public about who he is so she can secure power.

This is quite nonsensical.  Dany accurately points out that if Jon doesn't want to be king, he shouldn't tell anybody about it, because once it gets out the pressure will progressively mount -- and she specifically says he's wrong to think that Sansa won't try to use the information, while Jon says she won't, and Dany is completely right.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. King Bran: Tyrion being impressed that Bran doesn't want anything 

Incidentally, I forgot to mention earlier when discussing the long-term implications of this resolution, when you consider how much this property has dined out on the idea that it's telling a serious drama about real politics, if the ending is "the answer to our problems is a god-king with no human attachments", that's going to render a lot of that null and void.

This particular one isn't on D&D, of course, but all the same.

[Colorful Mess]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

OMG, seriously? That wasn't Dany's best moment but she was a fourteen year old pregnant girl whose husband was dying and her world was literally falling apart around her. It's not like she had a habit of being abusive. Isn't it odd how excuses can be made for Sansa selling out her father for the true love (that had her pet murdered) but a pregnant child bride loses it once and she's irredeemable? 

I was talking about signs that you can see in hindsight for her being a violent conqueror. By itself its not much. But if you want to re-read for clues to her killing innocents, that would be one thing that would stand out to me--how she treats the people under her. Slapping the help? Always a bad sign. 

11 minutes ago, ursula said:

She's not asking him to lie. She's telling him to do nothing, to keep the secret that Ned Stark did for 20+ years or whatever it is in showtime because she knew he had a rat of a sister who didn't give a damn about Jon and would exploit his secret first chance she got. And what do you know? Dany was right. Sansa claimed to be so worried about soldiers "resting" but forwent that to send them into battle with a ticking bomb. One thing that entire plot proved was that Ned was right not to trust Catelyn with the secret and Sansa was 100% her mother's daughter. 

She is absolutely asking him to lie. Because he knows the truth. It's HIS identity, not hers. Remember that theme song "Truth" Ramon Djawadi wrote, apparently for them? I r o n y. When the show trolls, it trolls hard.

"Ticking bomb" is only there because of Dany's reaction. SHE is the bomb. It's basically "You don't want to wake the dragon do you?" How can you side with that?

However, I dont think Sansa is putting him at risk; she's giving him allies in the South. He now has Varys in his pocket. Ned was more at risk because he was isolated and not even Varys would take a stand. But he seems determined now.

[Stallion12]

If Drogon has valaryian steel armor, there could be some truth to the guys rumors, but if not then he's full of it.

[John Potts]

I think Danny would probably be the best choice of Queen of the choices we have remaining. But she's not claiming the throne is hers because of some democratic mandate (any more than Renly did), but because her father (and grandfather, etc) sat on it. I believe she does want to do good for her people, but that doesn't mean she can't be cruel on occasion (I don't recall her trying any of the 100 Wise Masters, she just had them executed). She's probably the best blend of on the one hand Cersei (without the callousness) and on the other hand Ned (with less naïvete). But the idea that she was ever going to bring in some democratic age was (IMO) completely ludicrous - she wants to be Queen, she's not intending to put it to a vote!

Aside from the fact that it's based on the Wars of the Roses, which didn't bring in a gloriously democratic age (that was ushered in gradually, but most significantly by the Glorious Revolution - about 200 years later).

[Portia4844]

Since Bran is the keeper of history, it would seem wise to keep him protected and have someone documenting what he's able to tell them.  Having him on the council simply because he's the 3-eyed Raven, knows history and therefore God-like seems like a fairytale ending.  The previous 3-eyed Raven didn't seem to share much with anyone about actual history and therefore, and it resulted in fables being told to children.  Yes, he needed to hide from the NK and now that he's been destroyed maybe Bran is safe from that but he's not immune to someone else killing him is he?  

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

However, I dont think Sansa is putting him at risk; she's giving him allies in the South. He now has Varys in his pocket. Ned was more at risk because he was isolated and not even Varys would take a stand. But he seems determined now.

I mean, yes, she is putting him at risk.  Attempting to instigate a putsch to put a person on the throne intrinsically endangers that person, up until the point that you actually win.

[Raachel2008]

18 minutes ago, ursula said:

She's not asking him to lie. She's telling him to do nothing, to keep the secret that Ned Stark did for 20+ years or whatever it is in showtime because she knew he had a rat of a sister who didn't give a damn about Jon and would exploit his secret first chance she got. And what do you know? Dany was right. Sansa claimed to be so worried about soldiers "resting" but forwent that to send them into battle with a ticking bomb. One thing that entire plot proved was that Ned was right not to trust Catelyn with the secret and Sansa was 100% her mother's daughter. 

She was. She asked him to keep pretending he is Ned Stark’s bastard because telling the truth could ruin her right to the throne. Except she has no right to the throne. He does. Not because he is a man, but because he is the son of Rhaegar, the Crown Prince. The show keeps making it look he has a better claim because he has a dick, but Jon could have been a girl called Joana and he would still have a better claim because    the heir of he Crown Prince is the fucking heir.

Jon had the right to tell his family. End of the story.

[Colorful Mess]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

This is quite nonsensical.  Dany accurately points out that if Jon doesn't want to be king, he shouldn't tell anybody about it, because once it gets out the pressure will progressively mount -- and she specifically says he's wrong to think that Sansa won't try to use the information, while Jon says she won't, and Dany is completely right.

This is an unhealthy relationship. What relationship is built on ultimatums that make the guy not be able to tell his own family who he is? They have a right to know. Dany's throne is standing in the way? Too bad. Dany is toxic for him. 

Luckily, Jon defied her anyway. He made his choice. It's almost like he doesn't really care if Sansa ruined his and Dany's relationship because he wants to stay in the North anyway.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon had the right to tell his family. End of the story.

Yes, he had the right.  But, as D&D say in the BTS video, he did so mistakenly thinking that he could have it both ways, when Dany accurately points out that he can't.

On the subject of the throne, this is another thing -- the sudden turn where everybody is suddenly fussing over who has the better blood claim to throne is quite unconvincing to me, considering that having the superior blood claim basically didn't do Dany any good last season, or Sansa in Season 6, and Cersei has been parked on a throne that she has no claim to whatsoever for two years now.

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

It's almost like he doesn't really care if Sansa ruined his and Dany's relationship because he wants to stay in the North anyway.

The writers would disagree with you on that point.

[ursula]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

Slapping the help? Always a bad sign

Eroeh wasn't the help.

But talking about people maltreating their help... Was Sansa's irritation with Jeyne Poole's grief (and complete dismissal/disregard of the girl's fate even though she literally saw her septa's head on a wall pike), her collusion in covering up murder and poisoning her nephew ... signs that she was going to be a conniving sociopath?

Because it seems that there's no consistent metric of judgment here. 

7 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Ned was more at risk because he was isolated and not even Varys would take a stand.

Ned was the Lord of Winterfell, surrounded by his bannermen. He had a veritable army at his disposal, he knew Jon had family across the sea and he chose to raise him as a bastard and outcast and send him to the Wall. If that isn't textbook isolation, I don't know what is. But sure, when Ned does it for the better part of Jon's life, it suddenly becomes Noble.