S03.E06: Certified

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Laurie dons her therapist cap once again to help Nora and Kevin along their paths in Australia.

[Armchair Critic]

I knew Laurie drugged the stew! I don't get it, is Nora trying to "depart" even though they rejected her? How is that even possible without their help? Is Laurie committing suicide?

[Mindthinkr]

Good question. Especially after the discussion of all the ways that one can die scuba diving. 

[Grumpymonkey]

So did Laurie commit suicide or no? I'm hoping no, but with Nora's scuba diving story (like mentioned above) and her giving her lighter to Kevin, I'm confused. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Grumpymonkey

[stagmania]

The implication is definitely that Laurie has ended her life, and that Nora was going to try to be with her children.

For the record, "We're all gone" is when I totally lost it.

[Mindthinkr]

I may be totally off the mark here but wonder that when she goes down diving, and is about to give up, that could be the same moment that Kevin gets dunked. He would travel to her (in this altered place that he travels to when he 'dies') and saves her before returning to his earthly life again. Nah. Fleeting thought but they were pretty solid in their good byes to each other. 

Lately all the episodes have been one character driven. Who's next and who's last (I'm guessing Kevin is last)? 

[acid burn]

Quote

19 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

Who's next and who's last (I'm guessing Kevin is last)? 

 

Spoilering this though the info is on IMDb:

 

Spoiler

The last episode is called "The Book of Nora," just like the first ep was called "The Book of Kevin." IDK if that means anything but we did see her old and going by the name "Sarah."

[Pallas]

I imagine Kevin will find Laurie on the other side, in the hotel: or whatever the hotel will be this time. And yes, Nora is going to try to use the machine, but we know she survives. Either she won't succeed, or the effect will be nullified by whatever happens (whatever Kevin does) on the 14th/15th.  Unless her little piece of Australia -- with its nuns and carrier pigeons -- is her own purgatory. Which I suppose it will be, one way or another.

[Eyes High]

I screamed at the Today's Special reference. I don't know what it says about me that I immediately recognized the show from Jill's description, hee.

[Macbeth]

I adore Amy Brenneman as an actress and she was awesome in this episode. 

And I loved that right after she admitted that she was Judas - people started conking out from the drugged stew.  I was like "Judas - what did you do?" 

I am really hoping that they are only "sleeping."  But given that they wanted Kevin to "die" again so that he could get the lyrics to a song to save the universe (a plausible plan in Lindelof's universe) maybe it would be for the best if she had in fact killed them.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Macbeth

[Cardie]

This is one of the saddest hours I've ever spent with the television. Laurie's and Nora's pain was just palpable, and then there was Grace wanting Kevin to find out what her dying children did with their shoes.

Laurie certainly was planning to commit suicide via scuba but we can't know whether she went through with it or decided to live, as she did when she took the pills five years ago. Laurie is a person another psychiatrist should certify as a danger to herself and others. When not wishing for oblivion, she thinks she is the greatest therapist in the world and can fix everything for everybody--but often with terrible results. When she said she could only be Judas, it was perfect. She sounded so sinister and then Michael reminded her that Judas died a suicide. Laurie's "Did he leave a note?" of course echoed the fact of her leaving a note when she tried to overdose.

[WaltersHair]

Several bad medical tropes

Medications are made to dissolve almost instantly. Throwing up will do you no good unless it's literally right after you take it. Ipecac. Never.

No, you can't effectively poison a stew and expect everyone to have the same dose. Depends on when it's taken (before an appetizer, all that bread, wine potentiates), the person's size, the concentration, and most of all medicine is made to taste like crap on purpose by pharmaceutical companies so, you know, you don't poison folks with it.

I'm also worried Nora is pregnant. She had sex with Kevin at the airport and had her IUD taken out. Can take 2-3 days for implantation.

The whole tone of this was depressing, but at least we're back to the story. I hope we don't get dueling stories of Nora and Kevin wandering in the wilderness next week.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

I adore Amy Brenneman as an actress and she was awesome in this episode. 

And I loved that right after she admitted that she was Judas - people started conking out from the drugged stew.  I was like "Judas - what did you do?" 

I am really hoping that they are only "sleeping."  But given that they wanted Kevin to "die" again so that he could get the lyrics to a song to save the universe (a plausible plan in Lindelof's universe) maybe it would be for the best if she had in fact killed them.

I hope Laurie was able to figure out (inspite of it being impossible) the correct dose to knock them out until the day after the 7-year anniversary (assuming that they wouldn't water board Kevin after the anniversary).

If that wasn't Chekhov's don't-forget-me lighter, is there a correct term for that kind of plot device?

[Cardie]

46 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

No, you can't effectively poison a stew and expect everyone to have the same dose.

Also, since a dog has a lower body mass than a human, why would a dog's medication be extra strong when taken by humans?

[WearyTraveler]

4 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Several bad medical tropes

Medications are made to dissolve almost instantly. Throwing up will do you no good unless it's literally right after you take it. Ipecac. Never.

But they do pump their stomachs out when people try to commit suicide by ingesting pills and are then taken to a hospital, aren't they?  Also, an instant dissolution rate does not mean an instant absorption rate by the body.  Faster absorption, yes, but not instant.  That said, given the amount f pills she took and how long she waited to induce vomit, I would say that yes, the show took a few liberties with reality here.

3 hours ago, Cardie said:

Also, since a dog has a lower body mass than a human, why would a dog's medication be extra strong when taken by humans?

You know how some of your medications have you take two pills every so often? Well, since it is very difficult, on average, to get a dog to swallow a pill, let alone two, you will many times find that a dosage for a dog is concentrated in one pill, when the similar version for adult humans would be split in two pills.

You should see the size of some de-worming pills for dogs that are out there, they are as big as quarters and three or four coins deep.  But yeah, in general, and considering that this particular dog was more of a medium sized dog than a large dog, one dog pill wouldn't affect one human the same way.

[Mindthinkr]

8 hours ago, Cardie said:

This is one of the saddest hours I've ever spent with the television. Laurie's and Nora's pain was just palpable, and then there was Grace wanting Kevin to find out what her dying children did with their shoes.

That was very sad indeed. I wonder that they'll ever find the shoes. 

 

7 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I'm also worried Nora is pregnant. She had sex with Kevin at the airport and had her IUD taken out. Can take 2-3 days for implantation

Oh goodness. Is she going to become the Virgin Mary or Mary Magdalena? Like Dan Brown's The DaVinci Code so there will be an heir to Jesus? 

Lost ended up with all the people meeting in a church. Their "afterlife" or "purgatory". They could do the same ending here. 

[Pallas]

7 hours ago, Cardie said:

Laurie is a person another psychiatrist should certify as a danger to herself and others. When not wishing for oblivion, she thinks she is the greatest therapist in the world and can fix everything for everybody--but often with terrible results.

Certified, indeed: Laurie is a certitude monster, like nearly every other protagonist on the show. She can't go on when she isn't sure. What she doesn't know, does kill her. She subscribed to a belief system that has a lot of currency in our culture; she was one of its clergy. Along with the culture she believed in its interpretation of human experience, and in its clerical stance of detachment.

But the Departure put that system to a test it did not pass -- not with Laurie, not with her patients -- just as it put the screws to mainline religion. And Laurie, who needed to be a good shepherd, who needed what she practiced as much as Matt needed Christianity, didn't survive. She battled on for two years, two years of her children spiraling away, two years of silence between her and her husband in whatever state he came home in; two years of her father-in-law's deterioration; two years of witnessing her community lose its mind. Two years of knowing she did no good at all. Or coming to know it, despite her understanding that knowing this would kill her. Two years of artificial breathing underwater.

And when the time came, as she listened to Sam's mother, Laurie accepted what she knew: unlike Kevin, still going through the motions as police chief, or Matt defiantly taking up God's dare, or Nora, in her pursuit of truth. She enacted the ritual of the suicide, as Kevin did repeatedly in Miracle; like her ex she found that she wanted to live more than she wanted to die. So she suckered herself into one more system of belief and joined the Remnant, garbing herself in their orders.

In her last day, among friends and family in Australia, she listened to their gospel of her ex, refused to call them delusional or mess with their sacraments, and resisted the temptation of belief. But she still had no way to live without it, and no way not to know what she'd lost, again. And maybe more simply: despite herself, Laurie had come to suspect that the 7th anniversary would be significant, and she wasn't going to stick around to see how the Departure wanted to fuck with her this time. She went back inside the water where her last child lived and left.

[maystone]

That was one of the best hours I've ever spent watching television. The Leftovers is one of the few shows I've watched that can make me feel devastated and exhilarated at the same moment. The writing, the acting - my god, it's all perfection.

I really do believe that Laurie killed herself. She said all of her good-byes and made her separate peace with those who mattered in her life. Maybe it seemed significant only to me, but at the end of her last scene, as she took one last joyous look around her then put on her goggles and started breathing through the respirator (is that what it's called?), all we could hear was the sound of her breathing and the sound of the waves. As she started to lean backwards to fall into the water, we stopped hearing her breathing; the only sound was the waves. That took my breath away, so to speak.

I don't know if we'll see Matt again; I hope we do. But if not, seeing him at peace, just hanging out with his little sister and offering her his support, that's a memory I can be grateful for. That last shot of them, arms around each other's backs, looking down at the device with all of that sparkling water beyond - yeah, that was iconic.

And Nora. Jesus. Of all the characters we've met on this show, I don't think anyone was angrier or more defiant than Nora. She's broken my heart so many times over the course of the show. I'm sure that she will again, because we know that she doesn't go through. Or if she does, then she gets spit back into our world. No wonder she looks and acts like all feeling is deadened in her when we see her in that future scene. And yet she's still alive. Why didn't she kill herself?

I've loved all of the single character episodes, but that means that Kevin has been sidelined which at first seemed like a weird choice for the show. I was starting to say that his story is central to the overall story, but then I realized that no, it really isn't. It was the catalyst for some of the other characters, but it turns out that Kevin's path was as uniquely revelatory and hard won as everyone else's. I don't think that Kevin is agreeing to die again in order to save the world; I think he just wants to find his own peace, and if the world gets saved along the way, hey that's great, too.

I am going to miss this damn show like nobody's business. They've all become dear to me, you know? Soon they'll all be gone, and I'm not sure how to deal with that right now.

Edited May 22, 2017 by maystone

[Juliegirlj]

Brilliant episode but painful to watch. Loved the beach ball at the baseball game analogy for Norah - she isn't interested in being that person to take the air out of the ball, and hope/ happiness away from people in her job as DSD investigator. 

I feel bad for Jill and Tommy- they are practically orphans now. Unless of course the world does indeed end. 

I thought it would be too pedestrian for Laurie to see Kevin again, but, I do believe the writers have that in store for us. I have a feeling that Nora ( angry older Sarah) somehow gets left behind once more-however, I don't believe she will be alone. No IUD, likely means she is pregnant. Perhaps the physicists will break the news to her? 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Juliegirlj

[Wouldofshouldof]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

That was very sad indeed. I wonder that they'll ever find the shoes. 

When Laurie arrived at the ranch, didn't "Pop" greet her with a bag of shoes in his hand?  What was that about, I wonder?

Quote

No IUD, likely means she is pregnant. Perhaps the physicists will break the news to her? 

When they turned her down for the machine, I thought maybe it was because she was already pregnant.  Granted, if she was, they didn't bother to tell her that.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Wouldofshouldof

[ShellSeeker]

OMG, this show, like no other, just rips your heart out and stomps on it. That was one of the saddest episodes of any show I've ever watched, but so beautifully done that I couldn't look away.

Nora has put up a pretty good front over the course of the show of making it seem like she'd come to terms with her husband and children all departing. And maybe she'd convinced herself that she had. She met up with Kevin, someone just as messed up as she is (but in different ways) and they seemed to cobble together a life that wasn't exactly happy, but did provide them both with some comfort, and together they were able to fend off the waves of despair and desolation that threatened to consume both of them. But now we know that was an illusion. Mark Linn-Baker planted the seed of there being a possibility that she could see her children again, and everything just completely unraveled. In this episode, and in the G'Day Melbourne episode, all semblances of her being able to move forward after the Departure were stripped away, and we saw what she'd been hiding for so long: that all she wants is to be with her children, and she'll do anything to make that happen: pay any amount of money, decimate her relationships, and follow the people she thinks can make that happen to the ends of the earth. Her nihilism is all she has left. It's so fucking sad.

And then there's Laurie -- so sure that being part of the GR, and then escaping it, has given her some sort of gift that makes her so much wiser and more perceptive than everyone else, and trying so hard to impart that wisdom at every turn, only to realize that all of her effort have been in vain. She too, appeared to come to terms with watching her unborn child depart, but deep down, it's been consuming her. 

I'm glad she told Kevin what happened. Her just walking away from him and the kids and joining the GR had to have contributed to how unstable he became. That wasn't her fault, but it couldn't have helped. In previous seasons we saw that he just could not understand what could have driven her to join a cult, and now he has some answers. She fell apart too, but just in a different way than he did.

I'm going to miss this show so much, but I'm also glad it's ending. I'm not sure how much more sadness I could take.

[Lady Iris]

Seeing the events that led to Laurie finally giving into the GR was quite potent. Couldn't kill herself but couldn't go on the way she was. I half expected to see Patty when she walked to them at the end of that scene.

I loved Laurie and Kevin's final talk and they were able to come to some peace together. Smart of Laurie to drug the others (ha ha, The Others.) They never would have left her alone with him.

I feel so bad for Jill and Tommy. Also felt bad for the boat driver who took Laurie out there. Assuming she's gone to her death, does he have to stick around in unstable waters when she doesn't come up? My mind just wandered there a bit on something that has no bearing but just a thought.

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

That was very sad indeed. I wonder that they'll ever find the shoes. 

Seriously! Didn't think it could get anymore depressing then this! Ya killin' me show. Ya killin' me.

The shot of the dog when Laurie spoke to him was a needed lighthearted moment. Cute silly dog smile!

[WaltersHair]

Quote

But they do pump their stomachs out when people try to commit suicide by ingesting pills and are then taken to a hospital, aren't they?

I haven't seen a stomach 'pumped' in over 20 years. Several reasons why. It takes cooperation from the patient and most ODs are wanting to die, not swallow a tube the size of a garden hose. Second, if not placed properly, all the fluid used can go right into the lungs, and third, if the rigid hose is jammed down an pliant esophagus, it can rupture it. Ugly, ugly way to die. Activated charcoal used to be the way to go, but even that has fallen by the wayside. Supportive care is about the only way to go.

ETA: the give me a dollar thing is also a trope. Just an understanding between a doctor and another person is enough to establish 'care.' It might be different for psychologists, but a comatose patient being wheeled into an ER isn't going to verbally say 'be my doctor' and no money changes hands.

Edited May 22, 2017 by WaltersHair

[Juliegirlj]

Also interesting that Kevin Sr (Pop) used the nickname Lorelei for Laurie! Lorelai was a mythical woman that drowned herself....

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, maystone said:

. . . I really do believe that Laurie killed herself. She said all of her good-byes and made her separate peace with those who mattered in her life. Maybe it seemed significant only to me, but at the end of her last scene, as she took one last joyous look around her then put on her goggles and started breathing through the respirator (is that what it's called?), all we could hear was the sound of her breathing and the sound of the waves. As she started to lean backwards to fall into the water, we stopped hearing her breathing; the only sound was the waves. That took my breath away, so to speak. . . .

I believe that suicide was Laurie's intent in the scuba scene, but on this show, one never knows, and in scifi in general: No body, no death certified.

[Blakeston]

Regarding Nora's possible pregnancy - has she had sex since having the IUD removed?

And wasn't there some indication that it would be a problem to be zapped by the machine if you had a device like an IUD inside of you?

[Lady Iris]

41 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding Nora's possible pregnancy - has she had sex since having the IUD removed?

She and Kevin did after they got through airport security.

[Maximum Taco]

36 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding Nora's possible pregnancy - has she had sex since having the IUD removed?

And wasn't there some indication that it would be a problem to be zapped by the machine if you had a device like an IUD inside of you?

She hasn't, but it's possible to get pregnant even if she had sex before IUD removal as long as she ovulates after.

Sperm can survive in the uterus for up to 5 days. So the timeline would go something like this

Day 0: Nora and Kevin have sex at the airport.

Day 1: Flight and arrival in Australia

Day 2: Nora goes to meet the physicists and is told she must have her IUD removed. 

Day 3: Nora has her IUD removed.

Day 4-5: Nora ovulates and the sperm from the airport sex impregnate her. 

[Maire]

There is an excellent interview with Amy B. in the Hollywood Reporter about her character and the episode. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/leftovers-amy-brenneman-lauries-fate-1005638

[Joimiaroxeu]

Was that woman talking to Laurie about her baby getting raptured the one from the show's first episode? If so, nice callback.

[stagmania]

39 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Was that woman talking to Laurie about her baby getting raptured the one from the show's first episode? If so, nice callback.

Yep. This show always gets the little details right.

[Penman61]

In a sea of such sadness, I cling to this thought:

I would watch the shit out of a spin-off of Nora and Laurie in a van, driving around Australia, solving crimes.  Sure, they get irritated with each other sometimes, but they always have each other's backs, are both so smart and and strong and have great overlapping skill sets. Also, since they have the exact same taste in men, playfully hand off and bicker over ripped lean Aussie dudes they encounter.  And then they adopt Australian foster children.  A dozen.  The end. 

That may be my own fanfic ending to this roiling ocean of loss and grief.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Penman61

[Clanstarling]

18 hours ago, stagmania said:

The implication is definitely that Laurie has ended her life, and that Nora was going to try to be with her children.

That was definitely my take. IMO, she wavered a little talking to her daughter and son, but then she did seem to shake that off and look serene.

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I screamed at the Today's Special reference. I don't know what it says about me that I immediately recognized the show from Jill's description, hee.

I did too (well, I recognized it, I didn't scream). My kids loved it - and I sure liked it better than the purple dinosaur.

7 hours ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

When Laurie arrived at the ranch, didn't "Pop" greet her with a bag of shoes in his hand?  What was that about, I wonder?

When they turned her down for the machine, I thought maybe it was because she was already pregnant.  Granted, if she was, they didn't bother to tell her that.

He did, and I wondered about that when the woman talked about the shoes.

I had the same thought regarding Nora being turned down, since they took her blood and such. On the other hand, IIRC, her face was kind of scarred in the future scene with the birds - which could mean she had at least a partial exposure to radiation.

When Laurie said goodbye to Kevin, that's when I about lost it. It put me right back in a moment when I did the same, and because it wasn't Leftovers world, I was certain of the outcome.

One minor note. It's Revelation, not Revelations. I wouldn't nitpick if it was just Nora - but Matt would certainly know better. I learned it on Jeopardy, finally. LOL.

[maystone]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I believe that suicide was Laurie's intent in the scuba scene, but on this show, one never knows, and in scifi in general: No body, no death certified.

I see what you did there :) It could be, but I'm going forward thinking that's the last we'll see of Laurie unless it's in a flashback. I hope so; the show has played honest with us up to now on that score. The only one who's returned from the dead has been Kevin. And, you know, God. Certified was set up to be the long good-bye between so many of the characters, and I don't want them to take it all back by having Laurie live.

I can't say I understand why she chooses suicide, though. I mean, I think I understand intellectually, but I just don't get why she would do that to her kids. All right, they're adults, and from their last conversation they both sound like they're healthy and happy and generally in a good place. But they're her kids, and she's leaving them to face the deaths of both of their parents. Maybe I'm expecting too much of her; maybe it's selfish to think she should give up her peace for her adult children who will go on to live their own separate lives. I don't know.

This show, right?

[Penman61]

33 minutes ago, maystone said:

I can't say I understand why she chooses suicide, though. I mean, I think I understand intellectually, but I just don't get why she would do that to her kids. All right, they're adults, and from their last conversation they both sound like they're healthy and happy and generally in a good place. But they're her kids, and she's leaving them to face the deaths of both of their parents. Maybe I'm expecting too much of her; maybe it's selfish to think she should give up her peace for her adult children who will go on to live their own separate lives. I don't know.

I think show made a pretty convincing case for why Laurie would commit suicide, though of course I share your stated objections.  Another tragedy in this show's tragic world...

The one I've wondered about is Kevin Jr:  What's his wound/loss that justifies his behavior after the SD?  Nora lost her entire family, Laurie lost her 4-week-old fetus and her sense of purpose, Matt's wife was put in a coma and had to justify his vocation...but what did Kevin lose that justifies him being in their category of dysfunctional grief-grappling?  Still puzzled by this, after almost 3 seasons...

Edited May 22, 2017 by Penman61

[stagmania]

4 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

The one I've wondered about is Kevin Jr:  What's his wound/loss that justifies his behavior after the SD?  Nora lost her entire family, Laurie lost her 4-week-old fetus and her sense of purpose, Matt's wife was put in a coma...but what did Kevin lose that justifies him being in their category of grief-grappling?  Still puzzled by this, after almost 3 seasons...

His entire family fell apart in the aftermath. His father became ill, his wife withdrew and became suicidal and joined a cult, his son ran away, his daughter started acting out. And while his family was falling apart, he was grappling with immense guilt over how he took them for granted and how ambivalent he felt about being with them before everything changed. On top of that, he began struggling with his own mental health and experiencing either deep delusions or some kind of divine connection. Seems like plenty of reason to me.

[Penman61]

Thank you for the recap, stagmania.  Yup, plenty of reasons for Kevin Jr to do what he does, but he's nowhere in the same league of loss as Nora, Laurie, and Matt, IMHO.  I like that this show foregrounds a character experiencing "secondary" losses as Kevin has--but then, Nora, Laurie, and Matt have also suffered secondary losses, in addition to their primary losses.  I just don't like the way his behavior/losses are put on the same level--or even a higher one, since Kevin Jr. is the main character and Theroux gets top billing.  It feels like we're back in Troubled White Guy territory (Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, Boardwalk Empire, LOST et al.), where their story/suffering is valorized over others who clearly have more justification...just because they are white and men and...troubled. YMMV.  Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled episode discussion...

Edited May 23, 2017 by Penman61

[Cardie]

Read any interview with Damon Lindelof and you know you are listening to a Troubled White Guy (of enormous privilege) who obsesses over his father having died as an atheist and any bad reviews he gets from the media or fans, despite the zillions he must have made as a TV showrunner and writer of movie screenplays. That said, I think The Leftovers in its last two seasons has more and more been putting Kevin's sufferings in perspective. I doubt he's the one we'll feel awful about--whatever happens to him in the end--at the close of the finale.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, I'm super impressed that they brought back that woman who lost her baby in the first scene, AND Laurie seeing her unborn children disappearing during the Maybe Rapture. Great continuity there. You know, say what you will about Lindelof, the guy is really good at bringing back things from the past in ways you wouldn't expect. Granted, that hasn't always worked out, but still, its admirable that he spends so much time on his shows universes.

Oh Laurie, you utter mess of a human being. She almost killed herself, changed her mind, joined the GR, then started running people over with her truck, faked visions of the afterlife, and God knows what else that I'm forgetting. Her killing herself with scuba diving is almost logical compared to most of her life. I'm totally convinced she's dead, because I don't know what else they can do with her now. She has, previously, seemed to have gotten her life back together and found a place in Miracle, but there is just a part of her that's broken, and I guess she just felt she couldn't keep going. Here, she found her peace with the people in her life, said her goodbyes, and died doing something she enjoyed, connected with the world one last time. Its depressing, but its the ending I think I've always seen for her. Hell, its probably better than what I used to think from her back when she was in the GR or when she was losing her mind last season.

I think Nora is going off to try to join her kids, but I have no idea what her plan actually is. The people at the office made it clear she wasn't going through with them, so I guess her plan is to basically stalk them and use the machine when they aren't around? It makes me feel pretty bad for Kevin. Literally everyone is leaving him left and right, and he and Nora left things on a bad note. At least he and Laurie found some peace before her death. While Kevin has been weirdly on the back burner this season (considering he may or may not be Jesus 2.0), he really nailed the last scene with Laurie. It also struck me that Kevin and Laurie have hardly been seen on the show as an actual couple, I totally buy their history just due to performances and great chemistry. It almost makes me wish we had more of them, despite my love of Nora/Kevin.

[Mindthinkr]

OT: Sorry TPTB...I'll keep it short. 

Went to the top of this thread and saw an ad for scuba diving in Jamaica. Talk about product placement but all it made me do was think of Laurie. Like she's a real person that I knew...and lost...scuba diving. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I think show made a pretty convincing case for why Laurie would commit suicide, though of course I share your stated objections.  Another tragedy in this show's tragic world...

The one I've wondered about is Kevin Jr:  What's his wound/loss that justifies his behavior after the SD?  Nora lost her entire family, Laurie lost her 4-week-old fetus and her sense of purpose, Matt's wife was put in a coma and had to justify his vocation...but what did Kevin lose that justifies him being in their category of dysfunctional grief-grappling?  Still puzzled by this, after almost 3 seasons...

If I recall correctly, Kevin was in the middle of adulterous sex when the woman he was with departed. I don't remember if they went into that in any depth, as in what kind of relationship he had with her, but it might have been a primary, rather than secondary, loss with a solid dose of instant Karma tossed in. On top of everything @stagmania said, I think he's had plenty to get screwed up about.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Clanstarling

[tennisgurl]

Oh, and I forgot! Yesterday, I was driving home from a friends house, and I saw a HUGE crowd of people walking through a park, all dressed in pure white! It was actually a church thing (I texted my friend and asked!) that a local group does sometimes, but I immediately was like "Oh my GOD its the Guilty Remnant! Damn it, keep them away from me!" I swear, if one of them lit a cigarette...

[scrb]

Is everyone who lost someone going to be neurotic the rest of their lives in this universe?

People deal with loss all the time.  Most of them don't engage in aberrant behavior.

Now if the way the loss occurred is what makes these "leftovers" pursue these strange actions, then Lindelof would be obligated to explain why.

Or are they saying because the disappearances were unexplained, it makes the survivors batty and do extreme things?

[ShellSeeker]

47 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh, and I forgot! Yesterday, I was driving home from a friends house, and I saw a HUGE crowd of people walking through a park, all dressed in pure white! It was actually a church thing (I texted my friend and asked!) that a local group does sometimes, but I immediately was like "Oh my GOD its the Guilty Remnant! Damn it, keep them away from me!" I swear, if one of them lit a cigarette...

One morning last year, my daughter decided she wasn't going to talk and was instead communicating with my by writing notes. My first thought was, "Oh great, I have a 7 year old Guilty Remnant member on my hands."

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I can't say I understand why she chooses suicide, though. I mean, I think I understand intellectually, but I just don't get why she would do that to her kids. All right, they're adults, and from their last conversation they both sound like they're healthy and happy and generally in a good place. But they're her kids, and she's leaving them to face the deaths of both of their parents. Maybe I'm expecting too much of her; maybe it's selfish to think she should give up her peace for her adult children who will go on to live their own separate lives. I don't know.

I know, I had the same thought. As a mother, I can't imagine leaving my child like that. No matter how old your kids are, they're still your kids. Laurie's kids are in a good place, but will they still be after she's gone? I guess if she did it like Nora suggested, and made it look like an accident, they won't have the burden of wondering if there was anything they could have done to prevent it, but still.

[Helena Dax]

5 hours ago, scrb said:

Is everyone who lost someone going to be neurotic the rest of their lives in this universe?

People deal with loss all the time.  Most of them don't engage in aberrant behavior.

Now if the way the loss occurred is what makes these "leftovers" pursue these strange actions, then Lindelof would be obligated to explain why.

Or are they saying because the disappearances were unexplained, it makes the survivors batty and do extreme things?

I don't think it's just a case of "I've lost someone". It's also a case of "I can't trust the laws of reality anymore". They don't know even if it can happen again. When you lose someone, it's a personal loss. Even if it's due to a plane accident or a bomb, it's still a personal loss. But the Departure was a completely different thing. It changed the world as we know it and what we took for granted. I'm not surprised they're so messed up. 

Laurie's sucide took me by surprise. Poor kids. Yeah, they seemed to be happy, but they won't be so happy once they learn about their mother's death. I can't say I really understand her decision. Not judging her, I simply don't get it.

I'm not sure I'd believe that Kevin's the new Messiah -what we're seeing doesn't seem to be related to Christianity-, but as far as I know, it's an established fact that he died and came back to life a couple of times. I would be extremely curious about that. 

Oh, and I don't believe the show is saying that Kevin's pain is more important or terrible than everybody's else.  He's just the one who is apparently able to resurrect. 

[Pallas]

18 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Was that woman talking to Laurie about her baby getting raptured the one from the show's first episode? If so, nice callback.

She's also the woman (credited as "Sam's Mother") who greets Kevin with gunfire when he arrives back in Mapleton in the finale of season 1. She's on her way to the bonfire to destroy the fake baby-in-a-carseat that the Remnant planted in her car the night before.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Pallas

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It also struck me that Kevin and Laurie have hardly been seen on the show as an actual couple, I totally buy their history just due to performances and great chemistry. It almost makes me wish we had more of them, despite my love of Nora/Kevin.

They have a really nice, easy chemistry that gives you the impression they've known each other forever. I don't detect any passion between them (which tracks with the story), but the affection is palpable.

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

If I recall correctly, Kevin was in the middle of adulterous sex when the woman he was with departed. I don't remember if they went into that in any depth, as in what kind of relationship he had with her, but it might have been a primary, rather than secondary, loss with a solid dose of instant Karma tossed in. On top of everything @stagmania said, I think he's had plenty to get screwed up about.

It was a strange woman he had just met, but yeah. To be a little crude, she literally disappeared while he was inside her. That's gonna mess anyone up.

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Now if the way the loss occurred is what makes these "leftovers" pursue these strange actions, then Lindelof would be obligated to explain why.

This is literally what the entire show is about. I think they've done a pretty thorough job of exploring the psychological effects of the Departure and showing us what it brought out in people and why. As @Helena Dax mentioned, these were not typical losses; it was a cataclysmic event with no explanation that shook humanity to its core.

[scrb]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

This is literally what the entire show is about. I think they've done a pretty thorough job of exploring the psychological effects of the Departure and showing us what it brought out in people and why. As @Helena Dax mentioned, these were not typical losses; it was a cataclysmic event with no explanation that shook humanity to its core.

I think humanity would be more resilient than that.  Thousands of kids go missing every year and in a lot of cases, the parents never find out the fate of their lost children.

They don't go through life behaving in extreme ways, like join a cult or go down to some miracle town or travel to Australia on a whim.

Now I would admit that the fact that these characters do these things make for more unusual scenes or episodes, some certainly memorable, with all kinds of intrigue.  But is it believable human behavior?

Of course that's not even going into all the unexplainable events in the show, apart from the Departure.

[meep.meep]

So, no one's going to bring up the dog who attacked Laurie?

What does Lindelof have against dogs?

[garyvp]

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If I recall correctly, Kevin was in the middle of adulterous sex when the woman he was with departed. I don't remember if they went into that in any depth, as in what kind of relationship he had with her

They had just met - a quick fling - Kevin did not know her name.