S05.E10: Darkroom

[TaurusRose]

I was just about to write this off as another boring episode then Philip and Elizabeth had to go and get married for real and I can't say how much I loved the ritual and the ceremony. Okay there were a few other mildly interesting things going on but Paige was not one of them. I've gotten to the point where I can't stand the actress or the character.

[Ina123]

11 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The Tims can't be killed because their lawyer has a tape or something that says Philip and Elizabeth are Russian spies, and he's to give it to the FBI if anything happens to them.

Ve have vays of findink out.

IOW, they'll be tortured for who the lawyer is and then the lawyer's office will be broken into and the tape found, or the lawyer will be killed and his office burned. Or it all could have been a bluff by Rev. Tim Tom. (Sorry, I'm mixing up 2 shows. Rev. Tim Tom is on "The Middle". I mixed them up because both are totally unbelievable as ministers.)

Edited May 11, 2017 by Ina123

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm not sure that the showrunners think that is the central question of the show. My memory is vague, but my vague recollection is that they're interested in following these dedicated patriotic spies down the path to the dissolution of their country and their reactions to the causes of fall of the Soviet Union and what that meant to the work they did for so many years.

I don't think this show has a simple central question, and the questions they are interested in aren't really about spy plot. They're exploring ideas of family and love and loyalty and duty-so if anything, I could see that all coming to a head in an ending where the Jennings are all forced to declare their ultimate loyalty, but I doubt it will revolve too much around plotty stuff like whether they get caught and how.

I've occasionally imagined a Breaking Bad-style scenario where Stan realizes late in the game that he's been had and goes after them, but I just don't know if the Js are interested in that. I do think they'd be interested in Stan finding out somehow and his emotional response to it, but does that necessarily mean he'll be their undoing? I definitely believed he would be in the first couple seasons. But I also used to think there was no way in hell Martha was making it out of this story alive, so what do I know?

7 hours ago, Anela said:

Wouldn't she find out eventually, though? I wonder what they planned to do, once they were finished with their work. I'm not sure how they would have kept it from them forever. 

I don't think Philip and Elizabeth ever really thought far enough ahead to imagine the end of this work and how it would be dealt with re: their kids. Seems like the tradition is to work people into old age until they have nothing left to give (see: Gabriel), so they probably never saw an end in sight and expected to be in America for decades. And apparently the Centre's intention was to make their kids part of it all along. 

[Erin9]

One of the interesting about PT's diary is his whining about what the big secret has done to Paige when telling her was something HE pushed. He pushed Paige to push for the truth. He pushed Philip saying she should be treated like a grown up. Shows how much he knew. Now he doesn't like it. 

I'm at the point where I want Paige to get a grip. Her life could be way worse. I think her own parents had a much more difficult upbringing. And the thing is: Her parents aren't normal. They never will be no matter what happens. It is what it is. They made life choices at her age that they all have to live with now. It wasn't so much done TO her as much as it is that she is affected by those long ago choices. So, she needs to come to terms with it. Her parents can go to prison, die, return to Moscow, go on the run or they can keep doing what they're doing. But they can't be normal. It's too late. There is only so much P and E can actually do for her now. 

And a different kid, like Henry, has handled everything differently. Truth is, Henry's mostly fine for now. The major impact in his life is the attention Paige gets and that his parents work a lot. But he's not curious or snooping. He's not dying to know what his parents are really up to.  He's a totally different kid. I don't see how boarding school helps him in terms of the secret really. That was Paige projecting herself onto Henry imo. 

I really liked Philip's advice to Paige. He's right:  you can change. She's not doomed to stay the same forever.  And PT doesn't know everything about Paige. He can't. No one can really. I liked that he told her something solid. It wasn't a platitude. What Paige does with it is up to her though. 

[Clanstarling]

I may be overly optimistic about this increasingly pessimistic show (which isn't to say it was ever a laugh riot), but I think the last bit of Darkroom is showing the beginnings of Paige coming to grips with it. She hasn't been one of my favorites, and I have occasionally been harsh in my judgment, but it felt like forward motion to me.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Erin9]

36 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I may be overly optimistic about this increasingly pessimistic show (which isn't to say it was ever a laugh riot), but I think the last bit of Darkroom is showing the beginnings of Paige coming to grips with it. She hasn't been one of my favorites, and I have occasionally been harsh in my judgment, but it felt like forward motion to me.

That's what I'm hoping for too. I really hope that PT getting out of their lives will help, as well. He's not helping anymore, that's for sure. Overall, I'm fine with the Paige story, but at some point she needs to move forward. 

[babyPhat279]

Boy, I had a VERY different view of the ending of this episode than you guys did. Was Pastor Tim venting and going overboard in his diary? Probably. Could Paige change and overcome her childhood? Also possible.

Is what P&E have done to her considered abuse? In my opinion, ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY YES. They are still doing it. They just exercised lying by omission to paint themselves as heroes with this wheat business. Their entire relationship with her is head games. And where could it lead? If the Soviet Union didn't fall she'd either be involved in their ugly business herself or lying to everyone she knows for the rest of her life. Or her parents could get arrested and then she'd have to deal with the trauma of that. Or they are all sent home as heroes and she needs to learn a new language and completely different style of living. Not that it's impossible, but her life has been pushed into a bunch of no-win situations.

I can sympathize with P&E. They joined the KGB when they were really too young and uninformed, and now they are all stuck. But Pastor Tim ain't all wrong either. And good that someone has maybe called them on their bullshit, even if indirectly.

 

Questions:

1. Why does a Russian-Orthodox-KGB-friendly person exist? Wouldn't he have been arrested or something for not being atheist?

2. Was this not the season finale? I thought this season was only 10 episodes, but I saw some people talking about what they think will happen next week.

[ChromaKelly]

22 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't know my issue would be him breaking the seal of the confessional.  I know there is a line but where is it?  Would he rat me out for cheating?  If I confessed to a hit an run in my teen years?   I am not religious at all but I always thought that the confessional was one of those things that was sacred.  I would see Pastor Tim informing on anyone as a betrayal. 

They aren't Catholic. I grew up Protestant, and the church pastor isn't a guy to whom you confess. That's between you and God. Being an 80's kid about the same age as Paige, I feel like it would be a bigger shock to know your church pastor harbored Soviet spies.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ChromaKelly

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Bretton said:

In my former Evangelical experience, plenty of pastoral couples (husband and wife) considered it normal (even expected) to share all with each other - including what was said to one or the other by a parishioner. In fact, this was considered part of honoring the oneness of marriage. The two are one -- including holding secrets, whosever they are.

Not surprising at all--but Paige herself certainly considered it a betrayal. She never agreed to confide anything in the guy's wife and probably felt that Pastor Tim had offered himself to her as a friend more than in the official capacity as Minister which meant telling his wife.

10 hours ago, Anela said:

Wouldn't she find out eventually, though? I wonder what they planned to do, once they were finished with their work. I'm not sure how they would have kept it from them forever. 

 

Probably, yes. The Centre was already pressuring them to tell her. But the way it wound up happening was down to Paige saying if they kept lying to her they didn't love her.

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

And apparently the Centre's intention was to make their kids part of it all along. 

I'm not sure that was their intention all along. Jared seemed to be their first attempt and they didn't have families of Illegals before that as examples. They may genuinely have considered the kids simply cover until somebody realized they could be used. As Philip has said, things always change.

It's interesting they haven't even brought up the fact that Henry would obviously be tapped too. So far he's living the life Philip and Elizabeth originally planned for the kids, that he'd just be clueless and enter the American life of his choosing.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I'm at the point where I want Paige to get a grip. Her life could be way worse. I think her own parents had a much more difficult upbringing. And the thing is: Her parents aren't normal. They never will be no matter what happens. It is what it is.

This is what I keep coming back to. It's like when Paige told Pastor Tim and had to work him. People disagreed on who to blame the most for that, but really it didn't matter. Once she did it, there was a danger and if she didn't want her life destroyed she had to work them. There's nobody to complain to that all this is unfair. It was unfair that Philip had to eat moldy bread full of sawdust as a child and that Elizabeth grew up in a city reduced to rubble. But that was their situation and life isn't fair. As Philip said when Paige asked him if he liked living in Tobolsk "We didn't think like that. It wasn't about what you liked."

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I don't see how boarding school helps him in terms of the secret really. That was Paige projecting herself onto Henry imo. 

Yes, I think she was indulging a bit in her angst using Henry to point out how terrible it was to be her with her secret and her isolation and deep sorrows. Someone elsewhere compared what she was saying to the abused kid taking the abuse to protect the younger kid but Henry can just as easily not know the secret at home as at school, and Paige suffering isn't the price for keeping him in the dark. 

Pastor Tim, of course, was making up his own dramatic tragedy with himself as the would-be hero. Lots of people casting other people in bit parts of their own personal hero stories here!

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I liked that he told her something solid. It wasn't a platitude. What Paige does with it is up to her though. 

Yeah, again I agree. Nothing Pastor Tim said defines the person she has to grow up to be, nor does her being burdened with this secret. Paige has, for a while now, been really embracing this idea that she's now "different" (as she said in this ep) or doomed because of her situation. (Even though some of the things that actually make things worse for her is that she continues to be *attracted* to the whole thing, always wanting to work herself deeper in instead of containing things or disengaging or minimizing the effect.) 

I mean, look at so many other characters on the show who are in similar boats. The Burov family especially. Mom did what she had to do in the camps. She came back a different person, but she came back. 

1 hour ago, babyPhat279 said:

Is what P&E have done to her considered abuse? In my opinion, ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY YES. They are still doing it.

Yes, but often we talk about what they've done to Paige in terms of damage, and yes, that's exactly what it is. But the thing with damage is that it's permanent. If you have a wobbly table it's not going to get solid when you put plates on it because the plates need to stay steady. It's damaged.

That's Philip and Elizabeth. They're not normal, they made choices they're stuck with, the choices changed them. Even before those choices they grew up in a very different environment that gave them a wildly different view of how to live than Paige has. There was no point where they were going to be able to wake up and suddenly be the comfortable American parents they were pretending to be and start looking at life like Pastor Tim does. They love their daughter and obviously have a lot of instincts that are right with her, but this is still who they are. 

Is there truth in what Pastor Tim said? Of course! If there wasn't nobody would much react to it, including Paige. He's far from the first time to call them monsters (Philip in particular has been called that to his face). But him venting in his diary about it isn't particularly helping anybody either, except himself. (Not that I'm saying he's wrong for doing it--he didn't write that for Paige to read and when you read somebody else's diary you take your chances that you're going to read something you don't like.) 

It's not bad for any of them to consider the truth of what he's saying--but it's also probably not good for them, especially Paige, to embrace the idea that she's the biggest victim and her parents are simply monsters. Paige herself must know that's not completely true--I mean, they're not monsters, and she absolutely has the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. Not only does Pastor Tim not know everything about Paige (his formative experience with her was all about her agreeing with everything he said and adjusting all her beliefs to agree with him, after all--he has no idea how to be in conflict with her while still having a relationship), but he doesn't know everything about her parents. All he sees is the facade they put on beside the knowledge that they lied to their kid.

I think another thing that attracts Paige to her parents is that they've sacrificed more and this is what tends to lead to bad things. Pastor Tim's life has been pretty comfortable. He helps people on his own terms, roughs it when he chooses and feels good about it. Getting lost in the desert was a wake-up call for him and his wife because before that neither had ever really felt real fear. Paige is I think ambivalent about many things that her parents have done, but I think she gets that Pastor Tim isn't really prepared to deal reality on the level they deal with them.

We can roll our eyes at Philip and Elizabeth talking about the wheat plot as if they foiled anything (they didn't lie about getting the good wheat strain to Russia, which seems to be something they genuinely do feel good about), but it's not like they've never done anything good, even if it was attacked to something terrible. They foiled a pretty nasty pro-Apartheid terrorist plot, for instance.

1 hour ago, babyPhat279 said:

1. Why does a Russian-Orthodox-KGB-friendly person exist? Wouldn't he have been arrested or something for not being atheist?

 

Nope. Apparently it wasn't that uncommon for priests to work for the KGB--good reason not to arrest them!

1 hour ago, babyPhat279 said:

2. Was this not the season finale? I thought this season was only 10 episodes, but I saw some people talking about what they think will happen next week.

Next season has 10 episodes. This season has 13.

[Milburn Stone]

I thought the darkroom scene, as regards Paige's psychology, was interesting on multiple levels.

Level One: Paige is committing to spying.

Level Two: Despite being committed to spying, Paige does feel completely fucked up by her parents, and agrees with the pastor's words. Taking a photo of those passages is her way of showing her parents just what they've done to her, and holding them to account for it. Passive-aggressive in exactly the way an unhappy teenager would be, and sharply effective in accomplishing her purpose. "See, this is how you ruined me!" Without having to say a word. Oh so delicious.

Level Three: Best of all, for Paige, is not just knowing her parents are reading the words, but being able to watch her parents reading the words, and knowing her parents know she's watching them reading the words. Revenge is sweet.

Level Four: Despite all of this, despite how much she hates her parents for ruining her life forever, despite how much pain she wants to cause them for it, she is still throwing in with them, because she now recognizes (or thinks she does) the good they accomplish in the world. She just wants to them to know that she was one of the many they sacrificed on the altar of the cause. (Like Isaac almost was by Abraham?) 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[ChromaKelly]

I'm starting to board the Paige Hate Train. Not because I hate her necessarily, but I hate the wet blanket she is on this show. I said this before but she really needs to be doing something. They keep saying how smart Paige is, but I'm not seeing that. She's just taking everything her parents - now know to be liars - say at face value. I'd love to see her doing her own recon. Let's see her at the library looking up Russian history, avidly reading the newspaper for stories about Soviet-American relations, shit even talking to Stan about spies and what they do, how they work. 
I liked the wedding ceremony, but I also question how much E was into it. I can see having a Russian Orthodox ceremony even though they aren't religious. I'm not religious either, but if I had been exiled from the US most of my adult life I would feel sentimental about a service in mainstream American Protestantism.
Pastor Groovyhair isn't long for this world, I'm afraid.
P&E are so over the Kansas thing. Seriously, how do they have time for this?
Tuan sucks. I'm not sure what E sees in him. Having Pasha bullied is awful. Fucking with adults lives is pretty crappy, but a vulnerable teen is over the line. It seemed like (wife? I forget her name) regrets the affair. How is E going to encourage her to keep it up? That's an odd thing for a friend to do.
 

[Sarah 103]

On May 10, 2017 at 3:17 AM, chocolatine said:

The way the Burovs were just sitting there without talking, Oleg struggling to eat even one bite, and Igor reacting by piling on more food almost read as a punishment, like "you're not getting up from this table until you've finished everything on your plate, young man".

I thought of the rice scene in Cool Hand Luke, but I coudn't figure out what reason Igor would have to need to display that kind of power/authority. 

On May 10, 2017 at 11:25 AM, MissBluxom said:

1) Oleg's father could be guilty of participating in some scam with the food. It just might be him the KGB is investigating and not Oleg.  It could have been arranged for Oleg to join the KGB - not because someone wanted him to work for them - but because someone figured it would be a better way to keep a close eye on him in order to bust his father.

I find this the most likely scenario, and would tie in with all the scenes of meals and food at Oleg's house. 

[SunnyBeBe]

6 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Ve have vays of findink out.

IOW, they'll be tortured for who the lawyer is and then the lawyer's office will be broken into and the tape found, or the lawyer will be killed and his office burned. Or it all could have been a bluff by Rev. Tim Tom. (Sorry, I'm mixing up 2 shows. Rev. Tim Tom is on "The Middle". I mixed them up because both are totally unbelievable as ministers.)

IMO, the KGB debunked the contention by Pastor Tim's wife that there was a tape or letter given to a lawyer or anyone else.  Recall, that The Center sent people to monitor Pastor Wife and they told P & E that there was no such thing, no contact by phone or visit.  AND E believed it and relied on that intel.  That's why she told Paige to lay off asking Pastor Wife about it, after Pastor Tim returned home.  E told Paige, just let it go.  Not because she was just a nice person, but, because THROUGH surveillance, she knew the woman had lied.  It was a bluff.  Never happened.  If P & E believed the intel and relied upon it, the matter was closed, etc.  then, I tend to think that's how it was.   

[MisterBluxom]

12 hours ago, Bretton said:

Also, on a related note, once again in this episode, Tim's vague Biblical encouragements to Paige sounded off. The delivery; the context; what he said right afterwards, about "doing great in life..."; again, it just didn't come off sounding at all realistic. I realized tonight that part of the problem is not just the scripting, but the fact that the actor just doesn't even remotely believe what he's saying -- that is to say, he's just not really identifying with the character in those moments; and it really shows.

 

Very well said.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Recall, that The Center sent people to monitor Pastor Wife and they told P & E that there was no such thing, no contact by phone or visit.  

No, Philip just listened to their bugged tapes and said there was no mention of it. The Center does not have a record of all phone calls the Tims might have made or where they had gone before Alice threatened them. Presumably they do have a lawyer. They told Paige to lay off because she wasn't helping. There's no way for them to know if the tape is real.

[SunnyBeBe]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No, Philip just listened to their bugged tapes and said there was no mention of it. The Center does not have a record of all phone calls the Tims might have made or where they had gone before Alice threatened them. Presumably they do have a lawyer. They told Paige to lay off because she wasn't helping. There's no way for them to know if the tape is real.

I recall it differently.  That's okay.  I could be wrong.

 E was listening to Pastor Tim's phone calls before he went missing and P searching his house.  That's how they found out that he went to a cabin to write sermons. (Back when they had planed to kill him.)

Edited May 11, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[TexasGal]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:16 AM, attica said:

She said it was related to Kazakh wheat (Kazakhstan being a neighbor of Russia now, part of the USSR then), and suggested the US scientists stole it. Which is why, presumably, P&E have to stay on the Topeka case: to ferret out the wheat-thieves. Or something.

Although I thought the wedding came out of left field plot-wise, I still thought it was beautifully acted. So much emotion filling both their faces. But really: that scene could have been dropped into any episode, any season. 

I rolled my eyes when she said it was from Kazakh wheat - yep, sure.  Because if Soviet wheat was so great to begin with why are you stealing American wheat?  Convenient that the great strain of American wheat came at least in part from Russia.  I assumed they had to stay on the case in case the Soviet scientists (?) who will be working on the wheat run into problems or need more samples.

And, ok I admit to being a skeptic generally, I thought that Phillip wanting a wedding was also convenient after they'd gotten the news they have to stay on Topeka.  And Elizabeth had made it pretty clear that she was getting to actually like the Topeka guy.  I snarked to my dog - "Jealous much?"

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

And, ok I admit to being a skeptic generally, I thought that Phillip wanting a wedding was also convenient after they'd gotten the news they have to stay on Topeka.  And Elizabeth had made it pretty clear that she was getting to actually like the Topeka guy.  I snarked to my dog - "Jealous much?"

Philip was the one who pushed her to admit she liked Topeka guy. But she's still completely bummed out about having to go to Topeka and sleep with him. I don't think it had anything to do with jealousy. It was his attempt be authentic about the relationship despite what other people they have to sleep with. 

If Philip's going to be jealous, he's got a much better target in the ghost of Gregory who will always float above him in all his perfectly loyalty true believer glory. Compared to him, Ben's just a source that Elizabeth doesn't hate and isn't repulsed by sexually. Of course Philip doesn't like it, but I don't think this wedding is actually an attempt to fight back against that guy who isn't even that interested in her (or not interested in the person she's pretending to be when she's with him).

[qtpye]

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Thank God for small mercies.

At least we didn't have to watch the actress playing Paige try to react to the news that she and her brother are illegitimate. 

Think about all the dorky looking anxiety house cleaning we would have to witness.

21 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Maybe it's just me, but I thought Paige deliberately photographed pages that would "get to" her parents in a very passive aggressive way. It might also be the actress not bringing nuance to anything, which makes me work harder trying to figure out what she's attempting to get across. Or maybe she's getting neighbor boy, Henry, and Pastor Tim safely out of the way before she brings down P&E for lying to her.

 

21 hours ago, teddysmom said:

 I feel like I want to go to boarding school with Henry, just to get the hell away from these people. 

Yes now that you mention it, unless it was just to show them that he's not as cool with things as they think.  I'm over Paige. I don't know if it's the actress, or what she's being given to do, but she has never really done anything for me. 

From ya'll's mouths to the show runners ears.  Please TV Gods, the actress is just not up to the task and giving her these type scenarios is unfair.

 

25 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

I rolled my eyes when she said it was from Kazakh wheat - yep, sure.  Because if Soviet wheat was so great to begin with why are you stealing American wheat?  Convenient that the great strain of American wheat came at least in part from Russia.  I assumed they had to stay on the case in case the Soviet scientists (?) who will be working on the wheat run into problems or need more samples.

And, ok I admit to being a skeptic generally, I thought that Phillip wanting a wedding was also convenient after they'd gotten the news they have to stay on Topeka.  And Elizabeth had made it pretty clear that she was getting to actually like the Topeka guy.  I snarked to my dog - "Jealous much?"

You can come sit by me, because I have the unpopular opinion that the wedding was not romantic.  I once was dating a guy who was much more into me, then I was into him (something that did not happen often).  He would do things that on the face of it seemed romantic, but were actually kind of possessive.  After dating for only month, he pulled out rings and talked about how we were now promised to each other (not engaged but promised).  He would do things like surprised me by having members of his family join us for dinner (just to show me off, he would claim).  I felt flattered and guilty that I did not love his "romantic surprises", (I mean who the hell was I to rejects such sign of affections)?  Later, I realized I had a right to my feelings and I just did not enjoy being with him.

I do think Elizabeth cares deeply for Phillip and respects him greatly as a partner and a father to her children.  However, I do not believe she has an all consuming love for him the way he has for her.  I think I am supposed to be believing, that she finally loves him and really wants to be married to him, but I just do not.  The truth is if they were released from the KGB somehow (this is an hypothetical scenario) and could live their lives normally, I think she would eventually leave him.  A lot of people hate E for not loving Phillip enough, but there is no crime in just not being into someone that way.  I think she has a right to her emotions and there is nothing wrong with not being in love with the man you were forced to marry, even if he is very good to you.

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, Ina123 said:

IOW, they'll be tortured for who the lawyer is and then the lawyer's office will be broken into and the tape found, or the lawyer will be killed and his office burned. Or it all could have been a bluff by Rev. Tim Tom. (Sorry, I'm mixing up 2 shows. Rev. Tim Tom is on "The Middle". I mixed them up because both are totally unbelievable as ministers.)

This is totally unacceptable.  Rev. Tim Tom is twice the fake minister that Pastor Tim is on his best day.  If Paige had gone to Rev. Tim Tom he would have had a song waiting for her that he would accompany with light and soothing acoustic guitar music.

"So you're parent are spies and I know why that may bother you,

But believe in the word and you'll be free as bird

That I know is true."

All of Paige's problems solved....take that Pastor Groovy Hair.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip was the one who pushed her to admit she liked Topeka guy. But she's still completely bummed out about having to go to Topeka and sleep with him. I don't think it had anything to do with jealousy. It was his attempt be authentic about the relationship despite what other people they have to sleep with.

I agree that the wedding had nothing to do with Ben from Topeka. I also don't think that Phillip is jealous of him. He recognizes that Elizabeth isn't repulsed by Ben and, instead, finds him interesting. Its more of a comment about Elizabeth. IMO, the wedding is a manifestation of Phillip's priorities and emotional state. For him right now it is family first.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I do think Elizabeth cares deeply for Phillip and respects him greatly as a partner and a father to her children.  However, I do not believe she has an all consuming love for him the way he has for her.  I think I am supposed to be believing, that she finally loves him and really wants to be married to him, but I just do not.  The truth is if they were released from the KGB somehow (this is an hypothetical scenario) and could live their lives normally, I think she would eventually leave him.  A lot of people hate E for not loving Phillip enough, but there is no crime in just not being into someone that way.  I think she has a right to her emotions and there is nothing wrong with not being in love with the man you were forced to marry, even if he is very good to you.

And I also agree with this: she does not love him in the way that he loves her. Frankly, that's probably not so different for many real life married couples. And there isn't anything wrong with it. However, as a KGB agent in the US, it may allow for a different set of priorities. Elizabeth's emotional connections are clearly evolving. In the past, would she have put Phillip before country? Probably not. Alternatively, Phillip always would have put her first.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

From ya'll's mouths to the show runners ears.  Please TV Gods, the actress is just not up to the task and giving her these type scenarios is unfair.

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I'm starting to board the Paige Hate Train. Not because I hate her necessarily, but I hate the wet blanket she is on this show. I said this before but she really needs to be doing something. They keep saying how smart Paige is, but I'm not seeing that. She's just taking everything her parents - now know to be liars - say at face value. I'd love to see her doing her own recon. Let's see her at the library looking up Russian history, avidly reading the newspaper for stories about Soviet-American relations, shit even talking to Stan about spies and what they do, how they work....

I think, for the show runners, it was an intriguing idea: have the sensitive, observant teen-aged child of two ruthless spies demand and receive the truth about her parents. However, the execution of it hasn't been successful. Don't know if it is the actress herself or the writing or both. Regardless, a lot of time is being devoted the story line and I am, unfortunately, starting to tune it out. (Perhaps it was the "mopping the floors" scene.)

I don't want to see her do any more recon or snooping. I want her to try out for the debate team or tutor grade school kids or something...and do it off screen.

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

P&E are so over the Kansas thing. Seriously, how do they have time for this?

I'm over the Kansas thing, too. The last thing I want to see is more of Phillip in bed with Deidre or Elizabeth's fireside chats with Mr. Tai Chi.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[dubbel zout]

1 minute ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Elizabeth's emotional connections are clearly evolving. In the past, would she have put Phillip before country? Probably not. IMO, Phillip always would have put her first.

That's one of the main themes of the show, as a matter of fact. The showrunners wanted to explore a marriage and are using the framework of Philip and Elizabeth being spies to do that.

[Umbelina]

I think the show has laid the groundwork for Elizabeth finally actually loving Philip, it began when he killed her rapist.  That said, one person always loves more in a relationship, that's just the way it is.  Philip is obviously that person in their marriage.  Philip is the one sacrificing everything, his daughter, his sanity, his entire emotional well being in order to do WHAT ELIZABETH WANTS.  Elizabeth sacrifices nothing for Philip.  Her way or the highway.  I think Philip has an idea that if he sticks by her long enough, she will either come around to loving him as much as he loves her, and sacrificing a little bit back, or eventually change her mind about them continuing to live their fucked up lives.

Tim's wife, IMO, definitely contacted that lawyer, and it was frankly, the only smart thing that couple has done.  They would be dead if not for a bioweapons accident and that. 

I don't hate Tuan.  I actually like Tuan.  He doesn't take any joy in what he's doing to Pasha.  Sure, he thinks Pasha is a spoiled aristocrat who has no idea what true suffering is, and from Tuan's POV that is completely correct.  Pasha hasn't watched his entire country go down in a stupid violent horrific war, he hasn't watched his entire family murdered, or had to eat from garbage cans if he could even find any food in them.  To Tuan, of course Pasha is a bratty entitled boob.  Still, Tuan's "torture" of Pasha is nothing compared to the torture of Tuan's entire childhood.  Dog shit?  Really?  Try watching your village burn from Napalm or people's head's blown off as a child.

Tuan was told by Elizabeth that they needed that family back in the USSR, and came up with a solution that made sense and was relatively easy to accomplish.  He's, if anything, simply trying to prove his worth to Elizabeth, be a soldier, accomplish his tasks, be worthy, be smart.

Everyone in the show is fucked and there is just no relief. 

• Stan and Aderholt will ruin that woman's life, and probably her son's as well
• Elizabeth will make Pasha's mom and her entire family slaves/imprisoned hostages to the KGB forever
• Oleg and his entire family are at the mercy of both the CIA and KGB internal investigations, living in terror
• Philip is still miserable about everything
• Pretty sure Claudia is lying to Philip and Elizabeth about a lot of stuff, they are just her stooges
• Pasha is a shy lost kid who is now more miserable than ever
• Philip drinks the dad's hooch and pretends to care while he helps ruin this guy's life
• Paige IS a victim, a deceived fool, another pawn who will never have a decent life, and mommy is all for it, and daddy too big a wimp to change it.
• Tim, I do believe, is actually concerned and in many ways correct, but he's such an ineffective fool I want him dead anyway, so who cares.  His wife?  I like more, at least she showed a brain.
• Stan is undoubtedly in deep shit, probably with his own agency and whatever his girlfriend really is
• Misha, another sad story of an innocent caught in a horrible world, who nearly made it...somewhere possibly better, but was foiled by the KGB
• Gabe is looking back at his horrific life and wondering what in the hell he's done with his time
• Claudia has no one, no family that "knows" her, she's a robot, true believer apparently who doesn't give a shit who goes down.
• Martha finally realizes what a complete and utter fool she was, stuck with no one, can't even call her parents, for all she knows, living out her traitorous life in a bleak, cold, lonely place with few comforts and no freedom.  She puts one foot wrong?  She's dead.
• The priest was a plot point to get them married.  Still, no one in the KGB appears to give a shit about him
• The scientist is dead for taking a job studying bugs

I do think the KGB considered second generation spies WAY back when they first decided to send "married" couples to the USA.  It was long term thinking, back burner, but they were pretty damn insistent on their couples having children.  It's the kind of long term planning government bureaucracies are famous for.  In addition, from interviews and information that leaked about the real embedded spies, they seemed to always know that was part of the deal.  Since they were minors, much of that information is suspect, some was protected, some is contested (more in the real spy thread) but yeah.  It simply makes sense.  Anyone that's worked in a huge government bureaucracy can picture the charts and plans easily.

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

Boy, I had a VERY different view of the ending of this episode than you guys did. Was Pastor Tim venting and going overboard in his diary? Probably. Could Paige change and overcome her childhood? Also possible.

Is what P&E have done to her considered abuse? In my opinion, ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY YES. They are still doing it. They just exercised lying by omission to paint themselves as heroes with this wheat business. Their entire relationship with her is head games. And where could it lead? If the Soviet Union didn't fall she'd either be involved in their ugly business herself or lying to everyone she knows for the rest of her life. Or her parents could get arrested and then she'd have to deal with the trauma of that. Or they are all sent home as heroes and she needs to learn a new language and completely different style of living. Not that it's impossible, but her life has been pushed into a bunch of no-win situations.

THIS.  Philip and Elizabeth aren't heroes.  They were brainwashed, manipulated and pushed into a way of life based on a bullshit, paranoid ideology. And now they are doing the same thing to their kid.  Paige is a baby for all the speechifying that she needs the truth.  She can't handle the truth and probably never will be able to handle it. This is all the time I'm wasting on Paige because I can't stand her.

Quote

I mean, they're not monsters...

That depends on your definition of monster. They absolutely are monsters to the innocents they've destroyed.  Their sad sack offspring would hardly hold them up as heroes and do-gooders if she had the full picture of them and their murderous activities.  Again, more lying and half truths are spun to seduce one of their children to the dark side.  Sorry, I can't get behind this level of malevolence and deceit. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by taurusrose

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I do think Elizabeth cares deeply for Phillip and respects him greatly as a partner and a father to her children.  However, I do not believe she has an all consuming love for him the way he has for her.  I think I am supposed to be believing, that she finally loves him and really wants to be married to him, but I just do not.  The truth is if they were released from the KGB somehow (this is an hypothetical scenario) and could live their lives normally, I think she would eventually leave him.  A lot of people hate E for not loving Phillip enough, but there is no crime in just not being into someone that way.  I think she has a right to her emotions and there is nothing wrong with not being in love with the man you were forced to marry, even if he is very good to you.

I totally disagree. First, Elizabeth is not putting up with Philip in any way. She spent years making it clear that she had no interest in him. Nor is Philip a guy who pulls out rings after a month of dating in romantic gestures that are really possessive. This is his first romantic surprise in almost 20 years of marriage and Elizabeth could obviously have said no if she didn't want to do it because it would be awkward to say no.

When the show started he loved her and she didn't love him back, but presumably that's why the show started with the episode when she took that step too. The fact, is Elizabeth IS into him. She just thinks she shouldn't put those sort of feelings above her job. Her own mother made it clear that she believed that marriage and motherhood should be sacrificed without a thought to the Cause. Elizabeth had to either internalize that or see herself as unloved. She chose the latter...and then fell in love with the guy who didn't do that.

Elizabeth is the one who made the marriage real when she crawled in Philip's lap to have sex with him. Elizabeth kicked him out of the house in S1 because of her jealousy. Philip stayed away until Elizabeth asked him to come back because she wanted him. That was the whole thing of that arc, that Elizabeth had to admit that she didn't actually want Gregory, who stayed in his apartment and let Elizabeth control the relationship and they both bonded over how little their love meant in the face of it all. She wants *this guy* who terrifies her by putting her above the cause and questioning things. Elizabeth was in charge of the intimacy from the start when she was the one who announced when they'd have sex--something she needed because of her consent issues.

If her problem was that she wasn't that into Philip, she wouldn't have done most of the stuff she's done. She demands much more from people in terms of loyalty and when you factor that in she's not so different from Philip when it comes to the sacrificing. Nor is Philip's love so much more all-consuming given his refusal to embrace her values all the way. 

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't hate Tuan.  I actually like Tuan.  He doesn't take any joy in what he's doing to Pasha.  Sure, he thinks Pasha is a spoiled aristocrat who has no idea what true suffering is, and from Tuan's POV that is completely correct. 

I like him too. I'd like to have spent more time with him. Also I said this before, but it was "normal" American high schoolers who actually bullied Pasha. That doesn't let Pasha off the hook at all for what he did in influencing them, but Tuan wasn't being uniquely terrible there.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:51 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I don't know my issue would be him breaking the seal of the confessional.  I know there is a line but where is it?  Would he rat me out for cheating?  If I confessed to a hit an run in my teen years?   I am not religious at all but I always thought that the confessional was one of those things that was sacred.  I would see Pastor Tim informing on anyone as a betrayal. 

He's not a Catholic priest (marriage?!), so no seal of confession.  And Paige wasn't doing any formal "confession" anyway, nor is telling him about her parents a religious "confession."  At least for Catholics, confession is only about your own sins/actions.

I loved the marriage scene, but I don't think P&E would be considered legally married in the US.

[dubbel zout]

1 minute ago, Mrs peel said:

He's not a Catholic priest (marriage?!), so no seal of confession.

I'm pretty sure priest/penitent confidentiality applies to all religions.

Edited May 11, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure priest/penitent confidentiality applies to all religions.

It would be interesting to know the legal definition of that, but not interesting enough for me to personally look it up.

I know FOR SURE that there is no guarantee of confidentiality when you confess to Mormon Bishops or church officials.  At all.  They all talk, to each other specifically, but also to anyone they think would or could possibly help the situation, LDS official or not.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I know FOR SURE that there is no guarantee of confidentiality when you confess to Mormon Bishops or church officials.  At all.  They all talk, to each other specifically, but also to anyone they think would or could possibly help the situation, LDS official or not.

Also I'm sure there's rules about what counts as a confession, as someone said above. Calling someone on the phone to tell them something about your parents might not fit under that confidentiality anyway.

[Umbelina]

The show has many problems this year.

Pace is the main one.  Unrelieved bleakness is another.  The biggest problem of all is the actress playing Paige.  You just can't recover from that one, not when the entire story is practically revolving around her.  I understand why it is, it was a good idea, but the actress has no range, and even less facial expression.  She has blank eyes. 

I know that sounds weird, but to me, so much of it comes down to that.  They eyes are the window of the soul, and dark eyes can be enormously expressive, but hers just are not.  There is no nuance in her performance, zip.  I happened to just rewatch the entire Hunger Games trilogy.  Just imagine Jennifer Lawrence in this role!  She's just the first young actress that comes to mind.  With one tremor or look she would have cut us to the bone in any of the Paige scenes!  Hell, even Keirnan Shipka would have done a better job, and she's much more limited as an actress, though obviously excellent when well directed in a role.  Holly Taylor just doesn't have anything approaching the acting chops to make Paige interesting.  She hits her marks.  She says her lines.  She works up hysteria at times and can yell.  Her eyebrows do all of her emoting and they look like cartoons.

You can't base so much of a story on one inadequate actress and have it be OK.  They shouldn't have cast her anyway, she looks nothing like the blue/green eyed parents, and once they made that call?  Game over.  Now, could they have cut their losses and not focused so much of the story on her?  Yes.  They could have.  They should have.

That's not all that's making this season a sometimes interesting chore though.  Plot points plot points everywhere and not a drop gets drunk.  It's all set up set up set up set up and more endless set ups and no payoffs, not even little ones.

They blew it.  Hopefully they end the season with a bang and the final season will finally recover and be amazing, but still?  What a waste.

Unless of course they really were doing what spies say shows never do.  Show the never ending soul killing, very rarely occasionally exciting drudgery and abuse of innocents by spies of all kinds.  If that was their intent?  SCORE!

[Chaos Theory]

28 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

 

I loved the marriage scene, but I don't think P&E would be considered legally married in the US.

Philip and Elizabeth weren't the ones getting married.  Mikhail and Nadezhda were.  Which was why they got married in Russian by a Russian and he mentioned something about whoever got back their first filing the marriage license.  They also used separate rings.

[jrlr]

I don't know if this has been asked and answered, but I'm wondering if Pastor Groovyhair (whose hair looked pretty ratty in this ep) could be charged with anything for NOT turning P&E into the authorities afer finding out who they really are.

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I rolled my eyes when she said it was from Kazakh wheat - yep, sure.  Because if Soviet wheat was so great to begin with why are you stealing American wheat?  Convenient that the great strain of American wheat came at least in part from Russia.  I assumed they had to stay on the case in case the Soviet scientists (?) who will be working on the wheat run into problems or need more samples.

And, ok I admit to being a skeptic generally, I thought that Phillip wanting a wedding was also convenient after they'd gotten the news they have to stay on Topeka.  And Elizabeth had made it pretty clear that she was getting to actually like the Topeka guy.  I snarked to my dog - "Jealous much?"

As I understand, Gabriel had been working the priest for a very long time. If I had to guess, I would guess that means he was working the priest as an agent. The priest would then be involved with violence and could very well have taken care of problems for the Centre. So, if push comes to shove, the priest could take an active role in getting Pastor Dim to join some religious org in a far away country and then arranging for Dim to disappear. That would seem to be a very clean way to get rid of Dim and leave little in the way of suspicion.  The sudden appearance of the priest seemed like quite a bizarre development and I can't help but wonder why he has appeared on the scene if not to solve the problem with the Christian minister. I just hope they don't allow this thing to drag on for much longer. If they are going to whack PT, I wish they would just do it and reserve the rest of the airtime for more interesting developments. What else is there to be said about wheat? About EST? About any of the other long and boring sub-plots that have been dragging us down all season?

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The show has many problems this year.

Pace is the main one.  Unrelieved bleakness is another.  The biggest problem of all is the actress playing Paige.  You just can't recover from that one, not when the entire story is practically revolving around her.  I understand why it is, it was a good idea, but the actress has no range, and even less facial expression.  She has blank eyes. 

I know that sounds weird, but to me, so much of it comes down to that.  They eyes are the window of the soul, and dark eyes can be enormously expressive, but hers just are not.  There is no nuance in her performance, zip.  I happened to just rewatch the entire Hunger Games trilogy.  Just imagine Jennifer Lawrence in this role!  She's just the first young actress that comes to mind.  With one tremor or look she would have cut us to the bone in any of the Paige scenes!  Hell, even Keirnan Shipka would have done a better job, and she's much more limited as an actress, though obviously excellent when well directed in a role.  Holly Taylor just doesn't have anything approaching the acting chops to make Paige interesting.  She hits her marks.  She says her lines.  She works up hysteria at times and can yell.  Her eyebrows do all of her emoting and they look like cartoons.

You can't base so much of a story on one inadequate actress and have it be OK.  They shouldn't have cast her anyway, she looks nothing like the blue/green eyed parents, and once they made that call?  Game over.  Now, could they have cut their losses and not focused so much of the story on her?  Yes.  They could have.  They should have.

That's not all that's making this season a sometimes interesting chore though.  Plot points plot points everywhere and not a drop gets drunk.  It's all set up set up set up set up and more endless set ups and no payoffs, not even little ones.

They blew it.  Hopefully they end the season with a bang and the final season will finally recover and be amazing, but still?  What a waste.

Unless of course they really were doing what spies say shows never do.  Show the never ending soul killing, very rarely occasionally exciting drudgery and abuse of innocents by spies of all kinds.  If that was their intent?  SCORE!

Is there any chance they could not have known she would develop in this way when they first hired her at a much younger age?

I'm not disagreeing with you. But for a very long time, I have had a great deal of respect and admiration for these two Show Runners. I'd just like to hope the problems with the show this season have been caused by something that was out of their control. Any chance that could be true?

[kokapetl]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

That depends on your definition of monster. They absolutely are monsters to the innocents they've destroyed.  Their sad sack offspring would hardly hold them up as heroes and do-gooders if she had the full picture of them and their murderous activities.  Again, more lying and half truths are spun to seduce one of their children to the dark side.  Sorry, I can't get behind this level of malevolence and deceit. 

They aren't monsters to their children, they don't treat their children monstrously. They don't rape their children. They don't rape anyone. 

I can't see how Timmy concluded that Paige was being impacted far worse than an incest victim. Maybe he should take a look at the jesus freak who pushed Paige to open this can of worms, how has her life been impacted by that idiot? And his bitch wife?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Kokapetl

[TaurusRose]

12 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

They aren't monsters to their children, they don't treat their children monstrously. They don't rape their children. They don't rape anyone. 

I can't see how Timmy concluded that Paige was being impacted far worse than an incest victim. Maybe he should take a look at the jesus freak who pushed Paige to open this can of worms, how has her life been impacted by that idiot? And his bitch wife?

Who is talking about rape?  I'm not.  I'm talking about psychological abuse. They aren't monsters to their children...yet.  It will be interesting to see which way that shoe drops if/when their true activities are ever revealed. That's what I'm waiting to see--consequences for a lifetime of spying, lying, using, destroying and murdering. BTW, Jesus is capitalized.  You can capitalize Paige, but not Jesus?  Interesting.  At any rate, I've never cared for Pastor Tim, his church, or his wife.  They were always over the top and stereotypical.  They, along with Paige, have always been the weak links, IMO.

[kokapetl]

29 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Who is talking about rape?  I'm not.  I'm talking about psychological abuse. They aren't monsters to their children...yet.  It will be interesting to see which way that shoe drops if/when their true activities are ever revealed. That's what I'm waiting to see--consequences for a lifetime of spying, lying, using, destroying and murdering. BTW, Jesus is capitalized.  You can capitalize Paige, but not Jesus?  Interesting.  At any rate, I've never cared for Pastor Tim, his church, or his wife.  They were always over the top and stereotypical.  They, along with Paige, have always been the weak links, IMO.

Pastor Tim was talking/writing about child abuse/rape, and how incomparable it was to what Paige was enduring. 

"Not monsters ... yet" is equivalent to "not monsters". Paige can't be affected by behaviour that hasn't occurred. 

My phone decided that Jesus shouldn't be capitalized, but it should be, since it's a proper noun. 

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The show has many problems this year.

Pace is the main one.  Unrelieved bleakness is another.  The biggest problem of all is the actress playing Paige.  You just can't recover from that one, not when the entire story is practically revolving around her.  I understand why it is, it was a good idea, but the actress has no range, and even less facial expression.  She has blank eyes. 

I know that sounds weird, but to me, so much of it comes down to that.  They eyes are the window of the soul, and dark eyes can be enormously expressive, but hers just are not.  There is no nuance in her performance, zip.  I happened to just rewatch the entire Hunger Games trilogy.  Just imagine Jennifer Lawrence in this role!  She's just the first young actress that comes to mind.  With one tremor or look she would have cut us to the bone in any of the Paige scenes!  Hell, even Keirnan Shipka would have done a better job, and she's much more limited as an actress, though obviously excellent when well directed in a role.  Holly Taylor just doesn't have anything approaching the acting chops to make Paige interesting.  She hits her marks.  She says her lines.  She works up hysteria at times and can yell.  Her eyebrows do all of her emoting and they look like cartoons.

You can't base so much of a story on one inadequate actress and have it be OK.  They shouldn't have cast her anyway, she looks nothing like the blue/green eyed parents, and once they made that call?  Game over.  Now, could they have cut their losses and not focused so much of the story on her?  Yes.  They could have.  They should have.

That's not all that's making this season a sometimes interesting chore though.  Plot points plot points everywhere and not a drop gets drunk.  It's all set up set up set up set up and more endless set ups and no payoffs, not even little ones.

They blew it.  Hopefully they end the season with a bang and the final season will finally recover and be amazing, but still?  What a waste.

Unless of course they really were doing what spies say shows never do.  Show the never ending soul killing, very rarely occasionally exciting drudgery and abuse of innocents by spies of all kinds.  If that was their intent?  SCORE!

I wish the problems were more restricted to the actress playing Paige. Unfortunately, it goes significantly past that, it seems to me. Take the scene, for instance, where Paige is cleaning the kitchen, and P &E walk in . Just inept direction, in my opinion. The person playing Paige is a kid. The director of the episode is presumably an adult with some level of experience in a drama. What's his excuse for not realizing that the kitchen looks pretty spotless, so having Paige standing there, scrubbing back and forth, back and forth, over the same spot, loooks like an affectation from a very mediocre high school play? Yes, I know Paige is supposed to be a nervous wreck. Even nervous wrecks don't mop a reasonably clean floor like that.  I saw a play last night, featuring first time actors aged between 8-13, which was better directed than this episode. That's just sloppy work which distracts from the story being told, and at this level, pretty inexcusable . To top it off the dialogue was clunky, which I've increasingly noticed this year.

I've always thought this show should be better than it is, and I say that as someone who has marveled at the work of Russell, Rhys, and Wright from the beginning. It's been even more frustrating for me this season, unfortunately

[Umbelina]

That's another thing.  We endure years of boring Pastor Tim and his slightly smarter wife, and now, voila!  All gone?

The fuck show?

[kokapetl]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I wish the problems were more restricted to the actress playing Paige. Unfortunately, it goes significantly past that, it seems to me. Take the scene, for instance, where Paige is cleaning the kitchen, and P &E walk in . Just inept direction, in my opinion. The person playing Paige is a kid. The director of the episode is presumably an adult with some level of experience in a drama. What's his excuse for not realizing that the kitchen looks pretty spotless, so having Paige standing there, scrubbing back and forth, back and forth, over the same spot, loooks like an affectation from a very mediocre high school play? Yes, I know Paige is supposed to be a nervous wreck. Even nervous wrecks don't mop a reasonably clean floor like that.  I saw a play last night, featuring first time actors aged between 8-13, which was better directed than this episode. That's just sloppy work which distracts from the story being told, and at this level, pretty inexcusable . To top it off the dialogue was clunky, which I've increasingly noticed this year.

I've always thought this show should be better than it is, and I say that as someone who has marveled at the work of Russell, Rhys, and Wright from the beginning. It's been even more frustrating for me this season, unfortunately

I thought Paige was cleaning the already clean floor because she was disturbed by Pastor Tim's "worse than sexual abuse" diary entry. 

For tv reasons, she had to be doing something that her parents would see between the front door and their bedroom. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Kokapetl

[littlecatsfeet]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also I said this before, but it was "normal" American high schoolers who actually bullied Pasha. That doesn't let Pasha off the hook at all for what he did in influencing them, but Tuan wasn't being uniquely terrible there.

On 5/10/2017 at 8:53 AM, misstwpherecool said:

 

Poop in a locker just made a kid suicidal. Ironic because Taun is a piece of poop.

 

 

SisterMagpie, did you mean "that doesn't let Tuan off the hook?"  I have to gently disagree with you that Tuan wasn't 'uniquely terrible'. He's pretending to be Pasha's friend but egging on the bullies to psychologically torture him. That's a special kind of terrible, perhaps not unique but certainly horrifying.

I agree that poop in a locker, in addition to all the other bullying going on, is going to drive Pasha to a suicide attempt. Rather than he & his mom going back to Russia, I think this may result in a dead or almost-dead teenager. He was already lonely and miserable to begin with, now he's being ganged up on by the school's gang of Biff Tannens, and it's quite possible he'll find out his only "friend" was behind it.

ETA: And he (Pasha) is not telling his parents everything...I get a bad feeling about this.

Edited May 11, 2017 by littlecatsfeet

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I thought Paige was cleaning the already clean floor because she was disturbed by Pastor Tim's "worse than sexual abuse" diary entry. 

She was. My point is that even disturbed people don't clean a room like that. It's bad/lazy direction, in my opinion. This is where somebody, Executive Producer, showrunner, etc., has to look at the dailies, and have a discussion with the director. It's like a lot of people are phoning it in this season.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That's another thing.  We endure years of boring Pastor Tim and his slightly smarter wife, and now, voila!  All gone?

The fuck show?

I noticed the same late stage sloppiness in another Graham Yost project, "Justified", unfortunately. That was mitigated a lot by the source material, the novels of Elmore Leonard, being so rich, especially in giving examples of how even the most secondary of characters can be vividly drawn. Think of the pedestrian nature of how Stan's new gf has been executed, and don't even get me started on Stan himself.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the writers for this show owe about half their compensation to Russell, Rhys, and Wright, for saving their a$$es all these seasons.    

[Trillian]

 Putting on my lawyer hat, I'll say that there's a conflation in this discussion here of two separate things: the "seal of the confessional" and  "clergy privilege". The latter has been recognized in many common law jurisdictions and codified in others. And there are conditions. It wouldn't be law if there weren't conditions. But the privilege in all cases refers to whether clergy can be forced to testify as to what someone said to him/her in the context of religious/spiritual counselling.

 As with all privileges, there is a debate about whether the testimony is completely inadmissible or if it is simply non-compellable. (Consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction for case-specific advice.)  In other words, if Pastor Tim voluntarily went to the FBI with what Paige told him, as opposed to being forced to testify, it might still be admissible. However, IMO, it would be of very little use legally, since it's hearsay. But - and here's the big "but"that I see - if he went to the FBI and told them what he knew and they investigated and substantiated it, the fruits of their investigation might very well be legal.  There's also likely no secular penalty for a clergyman who breaks confidentiality , although the individual church might have some penalty.

Putting on my Catholic hat, the "seal of the confessional" refers to the very solemn obligation of a Catholic priest never ever ever to reveal what is confessed to him in the context of the Sacrament of Confesssion. (Some jurisdictions recognize this legally - the root principle being you can't compel someone under oath to break an oath). The penalty for breaking this particular confidence is eternal damnation, in which, presumably, most Catholic priests believe. Pastor Groovy Hair is not Catholic, so it doesn't apply. And even if he were Catholic, what Paige said was not in the context of the Sacrament, and the Seal doesn't apply. 

[crgirl412]

On 5/10/2017 at 5:53 PM, MissBluxom said:

Tantric sex. I have heard a lot about that. But I'd really like to hear from someone in this forum who could tell us if it's real or just a hoax.

Oh, you are not alone. Many people have expressed this same opinion. I just don't understand why the showrunners have let this situation continue to slide for so long. What is wrong with them?

It's real.  I've never done it but in tooling around the internet while looking for information on reiki, healing yoga, reflexology, acupressure, acupuncture, Splankna healing, etc. I stumbled onto the Tantric sex stuff and karma sutra.  The positions those people get into!!  My word, are they ever flexible!!!  Mr. Tai Chi may very well be into that kind of thing!!

I didn't know that Tantra was about other stuff other than Tantric sex but "apparently" it can be emotionally healing like all of the *mind-body things practices are.  I say apparently as in the end some kind of sensuality was mentioned. It's kind of like EST in a way as far as the emotional healing perhaps but the route is entirely different which could be very interesting for P & E!! 

*The Neurobiology of Touch Part of Attuning to Clients article in Massage & Bodywork magazine Jan/Feb 2009 by Stephanie Mines.

“It is common for massage therapists to see their clients spontaneously remember trauma in response to touch. It is equally possible for numinous or otherworldly experiences to occur. This is because the hypothalamus transforms the activity of the frontal lobes (awareness) into hormonal messenger molecules. These then communicate with the endocrine glands, including the immune system, digestive system, and muscular-skeletal system. More messenger molecules are then released. When clients experience attunement coupled with compassion and educated touch they are poised for a numinous experience that could substantially enhance their immune function as well as change structure and movement. If this happens sequentially, lives change.”  “The release of tension can never be solely a muscular event. In order for muscles to come out of contraction the mind must also let go; with this letting go, memories are unleashed, along with the fear, anger or horror that initiated the contraction.”

Maybe Elizabeth can say someday say "I abandoned Communism through Tai Chi, Tantric Sex and Karma Sutra."

Edited May 11, 2017 by crgirl412

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, jrlr said:

I don't know if this has been asked and answered, but I'm wondering if Pastor Groovyhair (whose hair looked pretty ratty in this ep) could be charged with anything for NOT turning P&E into the authorities afer finding out who they really are.

I would think so. But I'm not conversant with the law outside of tv shows, which aren't exactly source material. Tim had confirmation outside of his "confessional/confidential" talk with Paige, so it seems to me he should be legally liable for something. Aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact,  or even treason.

[MisterBluxom]

42 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

It's real.  I've never done it but in tooling around the internet while looking for information on reiki, healing yoga, reflexology, acupressure, acupuncture, Splankna healing, etc. I stumbled onto the Tantric sex stuff and karma sutra.  The positions those people get into!!  My word, are they ever flexible!!!  Mr. Tai Chi may very well be into that kind of thing!!

I didn't know that Tantra was about other stuff other than Tantric sex but "apparently" it can be emotionally healing like all of the *mind-body things practices are.  I say apparently as in the end some kind of sensuality was mentioned. It's kind of like EST in a way as far as the emotional healing perhaps but the route is entirely different which could be very interesting for P & E!! 

*The Neurobiology of Touch Part of Attuning to Clients article in Massage & Bodywork magazine Jan/Feb 2009 by Stephanie Mines.

“It is common for massage therapists to see their clients spontaneously remember trauma in response to touch. It is equally possible for numinous or otherworldly experiences to occur. This is because the hypothalamus transforms the activity of the frontal lobes (awareness) into hormonal messenger molecules. These then communicate with the endocrine glands, including the immune system, digestive system, and muscular-skeletal system. More messenger molecules are then released. When clients experience attunement coupled with compassion and educated touch they are poised for a numinous experience that could substantially enhance their immune function as well as change structure and movement. If this happens sequentially, lives change.”  “The release of tension can never be solely a muscular event. In order for muscles to come out of contraction the mind must also let go; with this letting go, memories are unleashed, along with the fear, anger or horror that initiated the contraction.”

Maybe Elizabeth can say someday say "I abandoned Communism through Tai Chi, Tantric Sex and Karma Sutra."

OMG! That sounds so exciting. It is the stuff of dreams. At least of my dreams. Heh. Heh.

Thank you very much for that exciting info.  Now I just need to find a partner who is in good health and is looking for an adventure and is over 21.  I certainly do not need any more of those kinds of problems. Smile.  (just joking - I have never done any such a thing - Honest!)

Edited May 11, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, jrlr said:

I don't know if this has been asked and answered, but I'm wondering if Pastor Groovyhair (whose hair looked pretty ratty in this ep) could be charged with anything for NOT turning P&E into the authorities afer finding out who they really are.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have no doubt he would be in serious legal trouble at this point. He knew E and P are spies. He could make a deal  of some kind with the FBI,  but how good of a deal would likely depend on the quality of his information, how good his lawyer was, and  how much they "needed" him. Depending on how it all played out- how it came out he knew- the FBI might not need anything at all from him and wouldn't want to offer him a deal. 

If nothing else, he'd have made a big enemy out of the KGB if he talked. His congregation would likely be divided by those who were disgusted that he didn't tell  and those who would never trust him again for breaking a confidence if he did eventually decide to talk. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, littlecatsfeet said:

SisterMagpie, did you mean "that doesn't let Tuan off the hook?"  I have to gently disagree with you that Tuan wasn't 'uniquely terrible'. He's pretending to be Pasha's friend but egging on the bullies to psychologically torture him. That's a special kind of terrible, perhaps not unique but certainly horrifying.

Oops, yes. I meant Tuan.

Tuan is different from the school bullies. He's doing this as part of a cold-blooded strategy to make stuff happen. But I was more responding to the idea that, say, poop in the locker is something that really shows how screwed up they are that they'd not only allow it to happen but encourage it. But meanwhile the people who actually did the deed not only thought it was funny they think they came up with it as a prank. Because this is something teenage boys actually would do. Doesn't make it not terrible that Tuan or his "parents" would encourage it for their own personal gain. They're thinking it through more than the teenagers who did it, which makes it worse in some ways. But there's still a bunch of boys who, as far as they know themselves, came up with this plan for fun.

[White Sheep]

We do know one thing for sure from this season. After, the real marriage of P&E.  We know whatever happen to the Jennings or where ever they end up it going to be as whole family.  

What if pastor Tim sees this is a KGB plan from the get go.  Relazies he playing ball with killers and true believers in communism.  People who do not believe in the God and want to kill him off 105%.  And replace him with godless communism.   Next stop FBI HQ!     

What if Pastor Tim dies in a robbery gone wrong, eaten by a lion in Africa, killed by commie rebels in Latin America, a car accident, drops over from heart attack, or dies in a freak hair Solon explosion.    

Would Paige believe her parents and the KGB was innocent?  Would P&E believe it was just an accident?   

Edited May 12, 2017 by White Sheep

[SlovakPrincess]

I'm gonna go nuts if I have to see that same boring hairstyle on Paige in one more scene ... 

I'm sort of pleased that they have to keeping dating Deirdre and Zen Tai Chi Man for a while longer.  I actually find them amusing.

I like Stan's new asset.  I was happy for her when she showed off her pretty new teeth and seemed so happy.

Honestly, this show is becoming a parody of itself when they have a gratuitous scene of Oleg and his parents sadly, silently eating dinner.  OMG WE GET IT!  THEY'RE MISERABLE, FUCKING ENOUGH NOW!

 

I was mildly amused by Pastor Tim telling Paige (insincerely) "you're gonna do great in life" ... but mostly because I imagined him immediately running to his office to scribble in his diary: "downtrodden dishrag of a girl ... destined for failure.  Sad!"    

Edited May 12, 2017 by SlovakPrincess