S03.E19: The Once and Future Flash

[scarynikki12]

FutureBarry said this when he was telling MainBarry about how he fails to save Iris.  I think it's their first or second conversation.

[MissLucas]

 It was Cisco's line when filling in the blanks for past-Barry about the future:

Quote

You're even gonna create time remnants of yourself, but he's gonna kill them all, mostly.

Sounds vaguely ominous/important.

[notagain]

So Future!Barry decided to makeup for his lack of speed against Savitar by using time remnants, like how he beat Zoom, but Savitar killed them.

[scarynikki12]

Most of them, anyway.  That's why I think/hope that Savitar is really a Barry Remnant.

[Sakura12]

The way they have treated the Killer Frost storyline is turning me off this show. She's the only meta that somehow gets changed into a completely different person by her powers and it's never explained why.  She's the only one that gets her agency taken away when she uses her powers.

I don't know why they aren't using Caitlin's comic story. Where she needs other people's body heat to stay warm. Then one day she goes to far and kills someone and realizes how much better she feels. We could see her struggle with not wanting to kill but her need to stay warm overrides that. 

Then Team Flash can invent some science thingie that helps with her body temperature. So she can still use her powers and not have to kill.

[tennisgurl]

...Seriously, what is up with the wigs in this universe? Can we make some kind of rule that terrible wigs are now and forever banned from all flashbacks/flashforwards/alternate universes? Please and thanks you.

As for the actual episode? I guess it wasn't as lame as I thought it would be, but I am just so over this Savitar arc that I cant be bother to have any real string feelings one way or the other. Its been how many fucking episodes since we were introduced to this yahoo? And we still don't have a damn clue who is under that stupid mask?!?! At this point, I'm pretty sure its a future incarnation of Barry, so lets just get to your big reveal, show, and move along with this story! Its ridiculous that we don't know who he is yet. You know, it took them awhile to get around to revealing this seasons Big Bad over on Arrow too, but they did get there eventually!

The flash forward really does highlight the major gender issue that this show has developed. It has the new members of Team Flash all being guys, with the only two women on the team being dead, or totally out of her mind. Now, neither of those things are really awful on their own, I guess. Iris being targeted by a villain and Barry frantically trying to save her I buy, because he loves her and everyone knows (and its now confirmed) that he would fall the hell apart if she died. Its part and parcel of being the significant other of a superhero. I can even be alright with Caitlyn becoming evil and having a split personality. Its a pretty common superhero trope, and it gives the poor woman something to do besides be a love interest. However, when both things are happening to both notable female characters at the same time? Then it starts looking like a problem. When both of the main women in your cast spend all seasons as damsels in distress, who all the men are running around trying to protect, it comes off very poorly, like the female characters are only there to be saved, or to give male characters motivation, and not characters in their own rights. Which sucks, because both Caitlyn and Iris are well rounded, likable characters, played be talented actresses, who deserve a lot better. Again, both of these stories might have been alright, but combining how they are having the same damsel issues, and the issues within those stories, lead to the whole thing being a big, awkward, sexist mess.

I still have no idea why Caitlyn becomes another, evil person when her powers are working, when its been established a million times that getting powers doesn't make you crazy, unless its a power that specifically messes with your mind? Which ice powers shouldn't, unless its established in universe that they do, which they haven't, so why is this a thing? I don't mean to go on another sexism rant, but it doesn't look good when the two male members of the team who get powers are totally fine, but the one women who gets them goes nuts with power? If they brought Jessie back, who was a female character who got powers and was fine, this might not look so bad (still stupid, but less bad), but Jessie left for no reason whatsoever, so here we are.

You know, I thought that Oliver was the king of angst, but it looks like Barry might actually be beating him to that most prestigious crown. I don't want to be annoyed with Barry, I love the guy, I really do, but he is just trying my patience every episode lately. Future Barry is basically an extension of current Barry, but looking like he is auditioning to join The Cure. He totally obsesses over his own loss, and screws over all his loved ones. I mean, he left everyone for that long?!?! He learns a lesson at the end, but still. Iris begged him to take care of her family, and he apparently totally ignored her wishes. Because she's just a girl, who cares what she thinks! Barry must indulge in lurking around the lab like he's the Phantom of the Fucking Laboratory. At least when Oliver is angsty, he usually takes it out on criminals or something, or pushes his friends away for what he thinks is their own good. Hell, just last episode, he had a total mental breakdown about being brainwashed into believing he was a serial killer, and he got his shit together in like three days! When your making Oliver look mentally stable, you know its a bad day.

I did like a few things here. The actors are all still doing their best, and it was nice to see Barry realizing that he still has people he loves outside of Iris. And his future costume is really cool. But a few good things cant really make up for how long and dragging this stupid plot is going.

[diebartdie]

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Going to drag out Savitar's identity for another episode, but judging from Caitlin's reaction, I can only really see him being Ronnie or another version of Barry.  I really can't think of anyone else she was close enough to, for her to suddenly drop the posturing and quickly throw in with him.

It feels like years since this was the fun show.  It's like Eobard, Snart, and Mick took all of it with them to Legends of Tomorrow. 

Seems to me though that if Savitar is Ronnie, when he stepped out of the armor and Caitlyn saw him for the first time in however many years, she would have given him a lover's smile and the happy eyes. If it was Barry on the other hand, I think she would smirk and give the ironic laugh. The person she saw was someone more intense in some way, I still think it's Wally, especially considering how shattered both mentally and physically Wally came back from his fight with Savitar after Iris died or dies or whatever, time you know.

What Im thinking is Wally being Savitar fits certain conditions better than someone else, like Barry. Barry being a complete and utter bastard to himself just wouldnt work, it's too absurd and what would be the point? It's a kind of self-directed rage that Barry might have earned by creating flashpoint I guess but the carnage is so cruel, I dont see the show making the hero do that to himself. Wally was wronged  by flashpoint because his powers "got taken away" and he's been shown over and over to be sort of vainglorious about being a speedster hero and I can see someone with that personality streak going mad and seeking Godhood or supreme mastery over "speed". It fits Wally so well and for me anyway, it makes me feel sorry for him, if Savitar is Wally then Im going to feel compassion for the murderous freek, the story will have pathos and a sad point. A weird and twisty one but a point anyway. ALSO it just occurred to me, if Wally is Savitar then at least Caitlyn wouldnt be the only Team Flash meta whose powers made them evil.

Ronnie is a stranger to the show now, not nearly as relevant as Wally is now.

Edited April 26, 2017 by diebartdie
clarification

[DavidJSnyder]

4 hours ago, notagain said:

When did he say it?

I'm paraphrasing the actual line, but I think it was when past Barry first met up with future Barry.

Or actually what MissLucas said and it was Cisco who said it.

Edited April 26, 2017 by DavidJSnyder
Correction

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm confused why the speed force didn't heal Wally after he fought Savitar. Didn't Zoom shatter Barry's spine at some point, and he healed? 

I think it's more of a mental thing, rather than a physical one. I think physically, Wally probably healed after some time, but whatever Savitar did mentally, it shattered Wally inside. 

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

I'm not sure why Barry wouldn't know one of his remnants became Savitar. He told younger Barry he had no idea who Savitar was. Until the show tells me otherwise I'm going to stick with it being Ronnie, who is the only person I can see having that sort of an effect on Caitlin.

I thought at first that Emo Barry was lying that he didn't know who Savitar was. I don't think that's the case anymore, but the thought did cross my mind. I do think another Barry could have Caitlin react that way...well, Killer Frost would. Since they're clearly stating that Killer Frost is not Caitlin, I think the villain in her would find Barry as Savitar more intriguing. The reaction was odd, though. I'm not quite sure what they wanted to portray there, but Killer Frost seemed a bit more scared than anything. I might have to rewatch that scene.

[futurechemist]

At first I was confused why Barry was taking the time to fight Top and Mirror Master in the future, but my explanation for it is insurance.  Even if Barry isn't able to save Iris and change the future, the least he could do is make it so the future eventually gets somewhat better.  Though it was pretty cold for Joe to abandon Barry considering the sheer number of times that Joe has told Barry he loves him as a son.

I think villains work better when we know who they are, even if the characters don't.  That way we can at least understand their motivations to make them more well-rounded characters.  Zoom and Savitar have been completely 1-dimensional speedsters doing it for "the evulz".  Contrast that to Reverse Flash in season 1, or the evil speedster in this season of Legends of Tomorrow who actually were fleshed out.

In any case, as they keep drawing out the Savitar reveal, I put on my Troy McClure voice and say "this year, all of America was trying to solve the mystery of who killed Iris West.  Then they found out it was the baby.  *coughs* "

[GHScorpiosRule]

Could Savitar be Wells? Caitlin had to look up once that ass unfolded himself from his suit, which ended up being some kind of machine. And Barry ain't that tall.

Aside from the logic fails that others have posted (thanks @BkWurm1), I'm so weary of all the angst and darkness hitting me over again and again like the Loony Toons ACME Anvil and I'm Wylie E.!???

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this show should have pulled a page from Justice League's "Hereafter Part II," when Toyman sent Supes 75 thousand years into the future (even if his attempt was to kill him), and he and Savage were the only survivors. Savage told Supes to find Ray Palmer so the League would be able to stop Savage and thereby The Dystopian future wouldn't happen. And that's the FIRST thing Supes said they needed to do when he came back! Just like that should have been the FIRST thing Barry should have said after all the hugs and kisses-that they needed to find this Beth person. And if they failed, then the next thing would be to go into the time when she created the stupid technology. But I forgot-then a whole lotta of the "AMAZING DRRRRAAAAMAA" would have had to be cut from this episode for that to happen. And that Kreisberg hates anything Superman, so any stealing "borrowing" from a good show is probably anathema to him and his "vision" of The Flash.????

Oh and for those that didn't watch, The League was successful and we saw the Dystopian future change to an Earth that looked very much like Earth-2 from this show-all bright and shiny and populated with people and light, with Savage thanking Supes as he faded away.

[sarthaz]

Barry's best quality as a crime fighter is the way he speeds up to the villains and taunts them so they can incapacitate him with their powers instead of just capturing them real fast and moving on with his day.

I guess I'm a heartless bastard for thinking Barry should just call Patty when Iris dies?  He had better chemistry with her.

[mrspidey]

Yeah, it's gotta be Ronnie. He's literally only one who Killer Frost (not Caitlin!) would trust immediately. Either that or the writers fucked up and made her act ooc. 

[SnoGirl]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The way they have treated the Killer Frost storyline is turning me off this show. She's the only meta that somehow gets changed into a completely different person by her powers and it's never explained why.  She's the only one that gets her agency taken away when she uses her powers.

I don't know why they aren't using Caitlin's comic story. Where she needs other people's body heat to stay warm. Then one day she goes to far and kills someone and realizes how much better she feels. We could see her struggle with not wanting to kill but her need to stay warm overrides that. 

Then Team Flash can invent some science thingie that helps with her body temperature. So she can still use her powers and not have to kill.

That's Caitlin's comic story?? So much better than what we're getting! I would have watching that...imagine all the funny scenes we could have had of Caitlin cozing up to someone just to stay warm.

Sometimes I hate the multi-verse/timetravel bc we can't rule people out as Savitar bc we know where oringal Team Flash were in the story, but not where timejumpers or versejumpers are. I want to vote for Hunter, or Joe. I'd put Cisco on that list, but I feel he's too short.

I also wish we would have seen Barry say to Cisco, "You. You're not allowed anywhere by Caitlin. And you need protective gloves like yesterday."

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

I guess I'm a heartless bastard for thinking Barry should just call Patty when Iris dies?  He had better chemistry with her.

THANK YOU! I've been saying this forever! Barry & Patty had amazing chemistry. Barry and Iris though? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

The moment I heard that the original actress who won the part for Caitlin/Killer Frost was screwed over and the role was given to DP because of her relationship with the producers, I knew that was why her story arc was so all over the place wonky. In their effort to "protect" the character, they were never going to let her have any agency in her "rise to villainy" and guess what? The show's proven me right.

Who was originally cast to play Caitlin?

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, SnoGirl said:

That's Caitlin's comic story?? So much better than what we're getting! I would have watching that...imagine all the funny scenes we could have had of Caitlin cozing up to someone just to stay warm.

It's mostly her story, I just added parts for Flash so they don't have to make her completely evil. She was more like a vampire. She would touch people to take thier heat energy. Killing them by freezing them death would bring her body temperature up. That's how she got her name. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sakura12

[CletusMusashi]

Was I the only one who thought Future Mirror Moll was Future Killer Frost for a minute? It's mostly the dark lipstick that did it. I was very (briefly) confused about how that pairing had happened.

And if they refuse to tell us who Savitar is for another week? I'm saying Grodd. Because, honestly, I'm pretty tired of Savitar already. Pretending he's a gorilla alleviates some of the boredom.

Everyone's complaints about how little sense it makes for Caitlin's whole personality to change just because, like a talking Krusty the Klown doll, her switch was accidentally set to "evil," is correct. But I don't care about it as much as I should. DP has obviously been starving for some scenery to chew, and at least she and I are finally having fun. I don't watch this show for internal conistency. In fact, for months, I was perfectly happy not watching this show at all. But when I heard KF was back I decided to tune in, and at least I wasn't bored. I stopped expecting plot consistency or solid characterization a long time ago. I'm just in it for the fun. Which means, basically, that I'm in it for Grodd, Frost, Sharky, Trickster, and... I think that's everything about the show that I still actually like. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[Grace19]

This episode have the best acting from Grant this season, maybe the whole series, the two Barrys scene in the time vault was great.

Barry, wally, Cisco and joe broke my heart. I like Caitlin, but after seeing what killer frost did to Cisco, I don't want killer frost on this show, I hope they are able to bring Caitlin back and banish killer frost forever. The Caitlin/killer frost thing is tiring at this point 

Speaking of that, I'm also tired of the savitar stuff, can the show get to the reveal already and Barry defeating him. Thank God we are done with speedster villains for next season.

Savitar has to be Barry, " I even made time remnants of myself and he killed them mostly". "Mostly" being the keyword here, one may still be left, who went mad and decided he is a god.

Oh and Barry getting back from the future and just patting iris on the back after seeing that devastating future was bad directing choice, I don't see how Joe became a priority to comfort while iris is not yet dead, while the one who actually dies gets a pat on the back.

[Sakura12]

At this point I don't care who the Speed Transformer is. The constant teasing just makes that storyline annoying. 

Oh and Barry getting back from the future and just patting iris on the back after seeing that devastating future was bad directing choice, I don't see how Joe became a priority to comfort while iris is not yet dead, while the one who actually dies gets a pat on the back.

The one constant on this show is only the men matter. 

[mac123x]

Legends of Tomorrow:  "Don't touch your past selves or you're cause a time storm!"  ends with dinosaurs in LA.

 

Flash:  "Give me a bro-handshake, past self" ends with nada.

[kirinan]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Could Savitar be Wells? Caitlin had to look up once that ass unfolded himself from his suit, which ended up being some kind of machine. And Barry ain't that tall.

That was my first thought. I didn't think of Ronnie until second, but of course he's a possibility because of her instant capitulation. But he's not a speedster (although I suppose he could have picked it up in the Speed Force somehow), and he just seems too blah to be Savitar. But he was in that episode a few weeks ago with Captain Cold, in that scene where Caitlin had the baby with her, so maybe. I don't feel like it's Barry, because I just don't see Barry getting any loyalty from her. Of course, why Wells would, who knows. But still, it was my initial reaction.

[AudienceofOne]

God that episode was so pointless. Let's get the team back together in this future I'm trying to prevent being created? How about Barry goes back in time, succeeds and then this future doesn't exist anymore? Oh, wait, we're using the multiverse theory of time travel this week. It's so hard to keep up.

I counted at least two pieces of technology that Barry could have used fighting Savitar but he seemed totally disinterested in them. Oh that's right, that's because he's trying to keep the timeline intact... by changing it.

I thought maybe the episode wasn't a total waste of time when we got to the end because I thought they were going to let the audience know who Savitar was before Barry found out. No such luck. At this stage, I don't care.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

I can't see any reason for Barry's line - "I even created time remnants, and then most of them died" unless Savitar is a surviving Time Remnant Flash.

It's basically a version of "I did every motherfucking thing I could possibly think of to do and I still failed to save Iris."

[Trini]

On 4/26/2017 at 6:40 AM, cambridgeguy said:

There's no reason why it can't be in season 4.  They've already made it and if they want to show a return to a lighter tone (say, wasn't that supposed to happen this season) it can be visualized with a new suit.  Oliver change costumes occasionally so there's no reason why Barry can't as well.

Hey, I know that. You know that. It's the showrunners who may not know that. I'm not getting my hopes up that it will happen. It would mean new promo photos, new CGI models, new costumes for Grant and the stunt team. I don't know if they want to spend the time and money going into the 4th season.

----

People (and not just us over-invested fans on messageboards, but reviewers at major publications, too) have been pointing out the problems with the whole alternate personality thing with Caitlin/Killer Frost since it first showed up, and yet STILL the writers are doubling down on it with NO explanation. I don't even know what to say about it anymore. 

But this episode actually gave me some hope that they plan to redeem and/or switch back to Original Recipe Caitlin; since the they showed us that a metahuman jail cell is her ultimate ending.

As for Savitar, I'm so done with speculating. All the possible guesses have been guessed at this point. There are only a few people it could be; it's not going to be a big surprise. (Well, maybe to casual viewers it will be.) They just needed to reveal it already.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Trini

[mac123x]

Another thing I found annoying -- the epic battle between Killer Frost and Vibe was a 10 second flashback (while in the future, so flashforward?  flashsideways?  flashdiagonal?).  I noticed some unmotivated camera moves: when Barry was walking-and-talking with Future!Cisco the shot dipped down low to show that something was up with his hands.  It was distracting as hell, I actually said aloud "why did they just show his hands; was that product placement for the gloves he's wearing?"

[DavidJSnyder]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's basically a version of "I did every motherfucking thing I could possibly think of to do and I still failed to save Iris."

No, "they all died - mostly" is more specific that that. It's foreshadowing for something.

[AudienceofOne]

The problem is that, at this stage, Savitar being Barry is kind of lame. Five episodes ago, no. But now? And yet I can't imagine a reveal that will wow me or make me "I never saw that coming". They've dragged it out too long.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

There was one sweet thing about 2024, if nothing else;  the new suit = dope as F*!

Speaking of 2024, Flashpoint - or something between the 8th episode of this season and now - must have paradoxed S1's future 2024!headline "Flash Vanishes" completely out of existence, I guess?  Or maybe not?  During the 'Invasion' storyline, it was brought to our attention that the by-line author changed from IW-A to someone else.  So does that mean the February '24!Barry from this episode is the one that vanishes in a months' time (in the 2024!future)?

I was leaning heavily towards Savitar being a Barry in some form, until.......... unless they used a bigger stand-in for the shot, then there's no way that Savitar could be a Barry or Barry Remnant.  The physical stature and weigh of step was much larger than GG.  If they try to go with Ronnie as Savitar, that will just only end in amused incredulity, and not in the good way.

I agree with similar comments above re: Caitlin/KF.  Either finally make her just only one or the other, but stop switching between.  And also, the new KF story for the show, instead of using the comic canon to use as the character's template, is just too jarring to be believable.  Why does she become someone else totally when KF, but other metas never change into something else personality or temperament-wise? 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

If they try to go with Ronnie as Savitar, that will just only end in amused incredulity, and not in the good way.

I can't really imagine anyone else as Savitar given Caitlin as Frost's reaction of instant trust.

[waving feather]

I don't know what happened to this show. It's so bad now. Not even entertainingly bad but it's boring bad. I had to fast forward 70% of the episode because it couldn't hold my attention. What's with emo Pete Wentz Barry? Why does he have emo punk rock hair from the early 2000s? WHY. It's supposed to be the future, right?

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I agree with similar comments above re: Caitlin/KF.  Either finally make her just only one or the other, but stop switching between.  And also, the new KF story for the show, instead of using the comic canon to use as the character's template, is just too jarring to be believable.  Why does she become someone else totally when KF, but other metas never change into something else personality or temperament-wise? 

I think they implied that they'll kill Killer Frost by the end of the season, but not Caitlin. It's why they had Savitar and KF both state that there's a way to get rid of one forever. Which...ok, if they actually kill Killer Frost and keep meta Caitlin around, I'd be happy with that. It would put an end to this incredulous storyline, and I do think they want to keep Caitlin around as a hero, not as a villain. 

I'm happy DP is getting fun work to do, and I actually enjoy her portrayal of Killer Frost, but I agree that it's ridiculous that she turns into another person when using her powers. They really do need to end that part of her story now. 

[KirkB]

I'm a bit torn. On the one hand I like the KF outfit, DP looks pretty good with white hair and those creepy eyes. But I also thinking making almost the entire team have powers is too much. Barry, Cisco, Caitlin, Wally and technically Julian. I wouldn't mind if Caitlin an Cisco both lost theirs (he won't, they feel the need to keep Vibe around for his portals even though IMO he is WAY too overpowered) and Wally went away so Barry could go back to being the star of his own show.

Edited April 27, 2017 by KirkB

[immortalfrieza]

It is so comforting to see that even 8 years later, Team Flash will still be making no attempt to have any sort of plan or countermeasures before they confront the villains and will still just have Barry get his ass kicked and come up with something on the spot instead.

Oh wait, did I say comforting? I meant really really stupid and annoying.

At this point it's actually becoming really difficult to even come up with anything to say about an episode or storyline of this show that hasn't been said by everybody in these threads at least a dozen times. Killer Frost is nonsensical, the travel to the future didn't accomplish anything and came at a really bad time for Barry to do it, the reveal of who Savitar is has gone on far too long and probably been guessed already anyway... What more is there to say at this point?

[sarthaz]

11 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

The problem is that, at this stage, Savitar being Barry is kind of lame. Five episodes ago, no. But now? And yet I can't imagine a reveal that will wow me or make me "I never saw that coming". They've dragged it out too long.

I've got a few you won't see coming: Joe, Iris, Joe's sometimes girlfriend Shorty McWhatshername, Oliver Queen, Supergirl, the possibilities are endless! :)  Those are jokes, though.  My money's on Diggle's daughter, Sara.  I bet she's pissed!

[Sakura12]

4 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

My money's on Diggle's daughter, Sara.  I bet she's pissed!

Now I want Sara Diggle to be Savitar. Since that would actually be surprising, that would never happen. Whoever it is now will probably be disappointing. 

[AudienceofOne]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Now I want Sara Diggle to be Savitar. Since that would actually be surprising, that would never happen. Whoever it is now will probably be disappointing. 

Um, that's a woman. You do know you're watching Flash, right?

[Sakura12]

That's why I said that would never happen. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Nice to know '24!Barry had his priorities straight.... couldn't be fussed about his rat's nest hair, but GD it, he'll make time and willpower to shave his face every day!!

[johntfs]

With all the weeping and need for encouragement, are we sure Barry has enough testosterone to even grow facial hair?  This isn't a slam on the ladies since most of them seem to have more emotional balls than he does most of the time.

Edited April 30, 2017 by johntfs

[BkWurm1]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:37 PM, futurechemist said:

At first I was confused why Barry was taking the time to fight Top and Mirror Master in the future, but my explanation for it is insurance.  Even if Barry isn't able to save Iris and change the future, the least he could do is make it so the future eventually gets somewhat better.  Though it was pretty cold for Joe to abandon Barry considering the sheer number of times that Joe has told Barry he loves him as a son.

I just don't understand why anything Barry did in the future mattered.  He took back his lessons.  Don't abandon Joe or push friends away. So the only reason helping the future would be insurance is if he thought he'd probably crap out on keeping his promise again, lol.  I wish they had instead made Top and Mirror Master steal something he needed to stop Savitar and thus he needed to get the team back together and that inspires Emo flash.  At least make it make sense.  They could have gone through all the same steps and reveals, but it wouldn't just be for nothing.    

 

Quote

I think villains work better when we know who they are, even if the characters don't.  That way we can at least understand their motivations to make them more well-rounded characters.  Zoom and Savitar have been completely 1-dimensional speedsters doing it for "the evulz".  Contrast that to Reverse Flash in season 1, or the evil speedster in this season of Legends of Tomorrow who actually were fleshed out.

Who are actually the same guy, lol.  I do kind of love that I got two versions of the same character on two different shows.  I loved RF Wells but I equally loved Eobard's RF.  Both shined.  And i agree, Savitar is nothing but an avatar of evil and doom.  No nuance.  No real investment.  Just a place holder to hate.  

On 4/26/2017 at 6:09 PM, Grace19 said:

This episode have the best acting from Grant this season, maybe the whole series, the two Barrys scene in the time vault was great.

Barry, wally, Cisco and joe broke my heart. I like Caitlin, but after seeing what killer frost did to Cisco, I don't want killer frost on this show, I hope they are able to bring Caitlin back and banish killer frost forever. The Caitlin/killer frost thing is tiring at this point 

Speaking of that, I'm also tired of the savitar stuff, can the show get to the reveal already and Barry defeating him. Thank God we are done with speedster villains for next season.

Savitar has to be Barry, " I even made time remnants of myself and he killed them mostly". "Mostly" being the keyword here, one may still be left, who went mad and decided he is a god.

Oh and Barry getting back from the future and just patting iris on the back after seeing that devastating future was bad directing choice, I don't see how Joe became a priority to comfort while iris is not yet dead, while the one who actually dies gets a pat on the back.

Barry and Joe.  The true OTP on The Flash.  Make no mistake.  

Quote

 

Legends of Tomorrow:  "Don't touch your past selves or you're cause a time storm!"  ends with dinosaurs in LA.

 

Flash:  "Give me a bro-handshake, past self" ends with nada.

 

Per MG it isn't interacting with your past or future self that was the problem, it was returning to somewhere they had already traveled to in time.  

So just the regular time stream meet and greet like Barry did wouldn't hurt, but per MG's "rules" if Barry did something like travel back in time to save his mother and then travel back in time later to tell himself not to save her, then he'd break time.  Hey and he did!  Or at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  (I blame him for the time storm that killed Ronnie)

Of course, Marc G doesn't work on the Flash so I'm sure his rules for LoT don't matter.  

Edited April 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/26/2017 at 9:36 PM, doram said:

That was always the intention. That was why she turned evil without any agency on her own part. That way, she gets a do-over without any responsibility / redemption for the havoc that she caused because it was ultimately Barry's fault for creating Flashpoint and Julian's fault for breaking her necklace. 

The showrunners's idea of doing a "Killer Frost" arc is get DP in the sexy hair and thigh-baring costume but still keep her a "good girl" underneath it all so she can be switched back with little to no impact on the audience's perception of her character.

Even though, objectively, I agree with your point...

subjectively...

You had me at "thigh-baring costume."

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:46 AM, johntfs said:

I can't really imagine anyone else as Savitar given Caitlin as Frost's reaction of instant trust.

Maybe he's somebody important who's not usually on the show.

Lebron James? William Shatner? Reanimated Lemmy?

Edited April 29, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[rubyred]

14 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Maybe he's somebody important who's not usually on the show.

Lebron James? William Shatner? Reanimated Lemmy?

Dare I suggest...Eobard Thawne?

[ottoDbusdriver]

I like that 2024 Cisco apparently borrowed his new hands from Cyberdyne systems -- because that looked like the hands of a T800 series Terminator.

Did Savitar spirit Killer Frost away from StarLabs ? Otherwise, how did she get away from Barry after he searched the entire building and came up empty -- considering he followed after her less than 5 seconds after she froze the door closed ?  If so, how did Savitar know she needed a lift -- is he working for Uber now ?

I'm still confused as to why the time wraiths aren't all over the place with these time travel shenanigans.  They only seem to show up when it is plot convenient. Because not only should they have rectified Flashpoint, they should have prevented Eobard Thawne from fucking with things in the first place.  Were the Time Wraiths on a coffee break ?

I think 2024 Wally was still in a wheelchair because not only did Savitar defeat him, but he somehow stole Wally's speedforce -- leaving him with zero regenerative powers.

I would love to know how Barry determines how far he travels during time jumps ?  Because he seems to have some pretty precise jumps (and don't forget these aren't just jumps in time, but also space -- since the Earth moves A LOT).  Is there the equivalent of the Delorean time circuits from BTTF somewhere on his suit, or a dial, or something ?

Joe is a detective, so I would have thought that he would have caught on quicker that Barry at the cemetery was not 2024.

And total agreement with everyone upthread about the collective amnesia by the 2024 team about Barry's trip to the future in 2017 -- what makes this even worse is that none of them remembered him coming back.

If Barry can travel 10+ years to the past without assistance and then return to what is considered the present, how come he needs assistance to go 7 years (or 8 years, according to the math-challenged show writers) into the future but needs no assistance getting back ?  Because that means that Barry had to know that it was a 1 way trip ?  What if he got to the future and everyone was dead and there was no one to assist him opening a portal to the past ?
 

[johntfs]

49 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

If Barry can travel 10+ years to the past without assistance and then return to what is considered the present, how come he needs assistance to go 7 years (or 8 years, according to the math-challenged show writers) into the future but needs no assistance getting back ?  Because that means that Barry had to know that it was a 1 way trip ?  What if he got to the future and everyone was dead and there was no one to assist him opening a portal to the past ?

Presumably it's somehow "easier" to go into the past than (faster than normal) into the future.  He needs the boost to go into the future.  Once there he can get back on his own because he'll be running "back" to the past/present.  You'd think it'd be the opposite, but not on this show.

[Trini]

This episode did have issues; but some things I did like:

Iris trying to talk some sense into Barry; her being the more level-headed, realist in the relationship. They showed how she's the 'glue' keeping the West family together, keeping Barry together, and by extension, Team Flash together.

And yes, losing Iris would be horrible for Barry, but now we see how losing to Savitar would mess up everyone, even Central City itself; so that ups the stakes a bit.

It seems Cisco is 'glue' for too -- for Team Flash, specifically. Even with everything broken in the future, he still had hope. More on him later, though.

The little fist bump between Barry and Wally. They really need to develop the Barry/Wally relationship more if he's staying a regular.

Shallow: Thank you show, for letting Carlos grow out that 1 millimeter of scruff. Now if we could just get a bit more in Season 4.... The 2024 Flash costume looked amazing! It needs to be the regular costume, sooner than later.

I thought Grant did a great job playing an older version of Barry, and acting against himself. (That wig, though.) Carlos was good too.

At least we got one other way to try and stop Savitar, with whatever Tracy Brand invents.

Bad Things:

Already ranted about Killer Frost.

HR continues to be a complete waste of screentime. I was actually upset that he made out the best out of everyone in the future -- using the name and face of a known murderer. I need him gone by the end of this season.

I know they wanted to show instead of tell about what happened to everyone, but it was still odd that Cisco didn't tell Barry about the team. (And they cut Cisco's line "you have to see for yourself" that was in the promo.)

Obviously, we see it, but I hope the showrunners/network see the problems when the male-to-female ratio of you cast is 3:1. And when you kill off and/or turn either female evil. It was crystal clear in this episode. *MORE WOMEN* and use the ones you have better!

Even without his hands, Cisco should still have some of his powers, though, right? And he was doing lots of things before he got his powers, as a engineer/etc. So I didn't like that he seemed to be languishing in the future without STAR Labs.

No real Savitar reveal. Most people already figured it's a character/face we've seen before, so Caitlin/KF's reaction isn't a new clue.

Other Questions/Concerns:

Does Future Barry really not know who Savitar is? I think he might have been lying about that; or he didn't know how to explain it, so he didn't want to say anything that might mess up the past.

Cool special effects, but Mirror Master and Top were lame, like most of the villains-of-the-week this season.

I think this episode also showed that they need to trim the cast, since they clearly don't know how to use everyone effectively. When Future Team Flash Bros got back together, only Cisco and Barry did anything.

They are really going to have to shake-up in the cast/crew/producers next season.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Trini

[Trini]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

... Did Savitar spirit Killer Frost away from StarLabs ? Otherwise, how did she get away from Barry after he searched the entire building and came up empty -- considering he followed after her less than 5 seconds after she froze the door closed ? ...

Yeah, they should have set up that scene better. They could have had KF freeze Barry's legs, but then he'd be weakened, and not able to do a time jump??
 

Quote

I think 2024 Wally was still in a wheelchair because not only did Savitar defeat him, but he somehow stole Wally's speedforce -- leaving him with zero regenerative powers.

Sounds plausible to me!
 

Quote

And total agreement with everyone upthread about the collective amnesia by the 2024 team about Barry's trip to the future in 2017 -- what makes this even worse is that none of them remembered him coming back.

I might regret typing this out... but I was thinking about that, and I think it's another alternate timeline. The timeline that would have (might have??) been if there was no Flashpoint. In that one, Barry didn't go to the future for answers. (He probably didn't have that accidental time trip to see Iris' death.) Well, that's my half-baked theory. :)

[ottoDbusdriver]

Was it just me or did 2024 Barry seem taller than 2017 Barry ?  Was emo 2024 Barry wearing lifts ?

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/29/2017 at 8:57 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

I like that 2024 Cisco apparently borrowed his new hands from Cyberdyne systems -- because that looked like the hands of a T800 series Terminator.
 

Maybe it's forshadowing or lampshading or... fore-shading?.. to Savitar turning out to be Arnold Schwarzenegger. But why is she so happy to see him? Is it just because he's Arnold Schwarzenegger, the famous actor and politician, and, in their universe, possibly the inventor of the Shamwow or something? That would be an acceptible answer. Or... is it because he played Mr. Freeze in a Batman movie, and so she acknowledges him as a fellow freezester?? Much as part of me loves that idea, I don't think "The Flashes" is ready to commit to the existence of Batman yet. Plus, Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze was so over-the-top cheesey that I don't think Killer Frost would respect him. Snart, once upon a time, might, extreme emphasis on the word might, put up with him just for shits and giggles, but KF would find his nonstop "Have an ICE day!" blather infuriating.

Oh well, nobody's perfect. I still love her. As long as she keeps the evil overacting cranked up to at least an 8.6.

Actually, once time travel's involved, it could be anybody. Hell, I might blunder into a time warp next week, and go through all kinds of traumatic character changes while also becoming faster and scarier yet still somehow much more boring.

Perhaps her thought process behind the reaction we saw was "Oh my god.. is that an actual scrawny beer-bellied balding man from Cleveland? Thank you Santa! And he has a crappy apartment full of Babylon 5 VHS tapes? Giggety giggety goo!" Because she isn't that into freeze puns. Arnold would've said "Giggety giggety gulag. Or igloo." Or.. feh, I give up.

Edited May 1, 2017 by CletusMusashi