S01.E07: Abandoned

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, caracas1914 said:

Joan was drinking quite heavily during that time and for one so self conscious about her image

A search for images of Joan Crawford and Joseph Cotton yields photos from Sweet Charlotte before she left the set.  Here she's with the daughters of the Governor of Louisiana, John McKeithen,  who were in the movie. (You can tell it's Houmas House by the width of the columns.) 

To me, she looks in good control....you don't mess with the governors children anywhere.)

[SunnyBeBe]

I saw the movie Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte as a child on tv, but, I can't recall much about it.  Now, WHTBJ...,..that's a different story. I remember that one quite well, but, the Charlotte one might have just scared me too much and I repressed it.  lol  

[enoughcats]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Charlotte one might have just scared me too much and I repressed it.

I'm not sure a child seeing Charlotte would remember much beside the Agnes Morehead character who was so over the top.  And the falling pots. 

If you identified with Charlotte, then when she was scared, you'd be scared.  But if you identified with her beautiful, more perfect cousin, the scares were less. (IMO)
This was more subtle than This is who we are where there were no nuances.  This has hints throughout, that I would have overlooked as a child.  This is a more complexly woven web.  Until close to the end, the story really doesn't come together, and I'm not sure I'd call it a horror movie, more of a revenge movie.

Irony, take a deep bow.

[marymon]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

The final image of Bette, Olivia and Bob posing with Cokes was hilarious.

 

I love the coke/pepsi feud intertwined in to this story.

Edited April 17, 2017 by marymon

[Mojoker]

1 hour ago, vb68 said:

Happy not to be alone in that. I never have either, and I was struggling with that here. I admit I have a bias in that I'm not a fan of hers, but there is always such a harshness about her, even in the old pictures, that just overwhelms everything. I think Jessica's look in the role nails that.  

On the other hand, I always think of Bette as being so witty, which only makes one more attractive in my eyes.

If I had to look at this comparison and choose one as the beauty and the other as the ugly duckling, I think I'd be stymied.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

This was the worst episode yet and disappointing that is penultimate episode. That whole discussion about pretty one vs the talented one lifted straight from a bad '90s high school melodrama.

One of my favorite things about this series is that the dialogue really rings true - I can picture the actual people saying these things in real life. But there have been two big exceptions to that: Geraldine Page saying something like, "Let them see what they've done to her," and the "How did it feel to be the most beautiful girl in the world?" conversation in this episode. Those lines felt like Ryan Murphy just couldn't resist going for cheesiness.

As for Lange's appearance, I think she looks pretty great in real life for a woman pushing 70. But she also looks like she's had too much work done.

[vb68]

So what was Joan thinking in trying to seduce that doctor?   Even in her state, I would think she'd avoid risking something like that getting out. She did seem to have a pretty keen grasp of how gossip worked. That was sad.

[poeticlicensed]

Joan had crazy good facial bone structure. But s she aged, her look became harsh, maybe because she didn't change how she made herself up, so it had the reserve effect. Oh those eyebrows...

This was the first episode where I thought the writers might be taking some liberties with the story. Joan may have been a lot of things, but stupid was  not on that list. I find it hard to believe that she didn't realize that she had overplayed her hand. She kept saying that she wanted to shut the whole production down. How would it benefit her to cost the studio millions? Joan didn't do anything that didn't benefit Joan. And making herself an enemy of the studios which provided her roles and $$ just seemed so out of character.  Again, there had to be other factors at play. 

Joan's wardrobe amazes me. It is insanely gorgeous. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by poeticlicensed

[GaT]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

i thought the scenes between Bette and BD were sad.  Yes BD and her husband are still married so Bette was wrong about that but BD comes off as a petulant teenager.  

I thought she was a teenager, that's why she had to get her mother's permission to get married.

[tennisgurl]

Bette, Olivia, and Bob posing with those Cokes with big cheesy grins was amazing. I also loved that, in the middle of all the Bette/Joan drama, Bob has gone into The Land of No Fucks. He just wants to make his damn movie, and he just doesn't care about Bette and Joan's feuding. Joan tries to change up the script to feed her ego? Tells her to suck it up, stop screwing with his movie, and get back to work. Bette keeps criticizing Joan on the shoot? Tell her to stop pushing Joan away and start acting like a damn producer. And Bette is the one he actually likes!

I do feel bad for Joan, I really do, and its not fair that she's being shut out of Hollywood while she's still beautiful and talented just because she's older, BUT in this episode, literally all her problems are of her own making. Yeah yeah, Big Bad Patriarchy and all that, but swaying around acting like she's sickly to passive aggressively get her way on her movie, and not just doing her damn job, makes it pretty hard to feel all that bad for her getting replaced in the movie. I mean, she cant be THAT surprised that the studio is suing her and are replacing her, when that's literally what they told her they would do! I also don't blame Mamacita for leaving after Joan chucked yet another vase at her head. Asking your employer, who you dedicate almost your entire life to, to not throw things at your head when their having a bad day seems like a pretty reasonable request.

At least we did get a bit more Bette this week, but it still feels too Joan focused. As others have said, its probably a combination of Murphey being too enamored with Bette to really show more of her mean side, and Murphey is equally as enamored with JL and her Aging Beauty performance she's always giving in his work.

Pauline's outfit in the hospital scene with Joan looked super cute, especially that green hat.

[Corvino]

As the only person in the world who both loves Bette Davis and enjoyed her daughter's book and sympathized with the younger B.D.'s viewpoint, I have to note that this episode was very unfair to both of them about B.D.'s wedding to Jeremy Hyman. The book is no "Mommie Dearest"; it's the narrative of a somewhat uptight daughter embarrassed and feeling oppressed by a flamboyant, larger-than-life, magnificent but self-centered mother who really loved her (she knows that) but was perhaps a bit tactless, needy and rude. I know a lot of people think she shouldn't have published it, including her mother, but it's a great story and has, read sympathetically, a lot of positive remarks about Bette Davis and their relationship among the accounts of their epic personality clashes and the funny (yes, funny, mostly, nothing like the wire hangers) atrocity stories.

The show is tweaking the real Bette-B.D. relationship to reinforce its main theme of the two heroines getting old and suffering disrespect because of it. That speech B.D. made in the second (third?) episode, about her mother resenting her because she still had youth and romance, rang false in itself and based on B.D.'s self-portrait in "My Mother's Keeper". Then we get to B.D.'s early fairy-tale romance at 16, leading to lifelong marriage, and this episode makes B.D. her mother's disrespecter and torturer about that. Not really. In the book, B.D. says Bette was horrified and disgusted at the romance (she allegedly wanted B.D. to be her more-than-Mamacita-like lifelong companion, while dating and having affairs her mother could live through vicariously) but had a reversal into graciousness when Jeremy asked for her blessing; she gave her consent to the underage marriage and collaborated with B.D., though domineeringly, on the wedding plans. She gave B.D. an unrestful ride by threatening to change her mind throughout; a couple of weeks after the gracious consent, she burst out at breakfast "You better be nice to me and love me a lot. This is a great thing I'm doing for you. There aren't many mothers who'd let their sixteen-year-old daughter get married." The threat underlying this continued but was not carried out; B.D. describes a beautiful wedding that made her happy and she ultimately appreciated her mother's arrangements.

In the episode, Bette is over-choreographing the ceremony in advance, with the plan for chimes just as the groom kisses the bride presented as oppressive, and rude, rebellious B.D. bursts out with the devastating news that they're already married in a civil ceremony. Not so. The civil ceremony did exist, but took place on Dec. 31st (1963) because Jeremy had been advised by his accountant that if he didn't legally marry till the new year, the planned wedding day on January 4th, he'd take a horrendous tax hit. They immediately told Bette this and she took it badly, but grudgingly came around to it when Church authorities said it was fiscally prudent and practical to have a civil ceremony, and religiously fine as long as the marriage wasn't consummated before the church wedding. With a lot of drama and glitches, Bette came around to that and both weddings took place. And, rather than the chimes being a point of contention, B.D. says, "The most memorable moment of the marriage ceremony, a complete surprise to Jeremy and me, came when the groom was told, 'You may now kiss the bride.' As our lips touched a recording of the most beautiful cathedral bells began to peal joyously through the chapel. It was an extraordinary moment that we shall never forget."

Naturally good writers alter real life to make a better story, but I just wanted to point out that both mother and daughter behaved much better in real life than in the series. We should have love and charity for both of them.

Meanwhile, this really is badly structured, isn't it? They should certainly have started earlier and/or stretched the "Baby Jane" part out longer. Both last week and this week seemed predominantly sad and dreary rather than also dishy and tasty. I was going to record it all end to end on tape (yes) off On Demand and keep it, but unless the final episode ties it all up in an artistically heartening manner, I may not after all.

[AndySmith]

Quote

Joan had crazy good facial bone structure. But s she aged, her look became harsh, maybe because she didn't change how she made herself up, so it had the reserve effect. Oh those eyebrows...

Her styling definitely became much more harsh. It became much sharper, for lack of a better word, and didn't suit her as much as the softer look did when she was younger.

[ciprus]

57 minutes ago, Corvino said:

As the only person in the world who both loves Bette Davis and enjoyed her daughter's book and sympathized with the younger B.D.'s viewpoint, I have to note that this episode was very unfair to both of them about B.D.'s wedding to Jeremy Hyman. The book is no "Mommie Dearest"; it's the narrative of a somewhat uptight daughter embarrassed and feeling oppressed by a flamboyant, larger-than-life, magnificent but self-centered mother who really loved her (she knows that) but was perhaps a bit tactless, needy and rude. I know a lot of people think she shouldn't have published it, including her mother, but it's a great story and has, read sympathetically, a lot of positive remarks about Bette Davis and their relationship among the accounts of their epic personality clashes and the funny (yes, funny, mostly, nothing like the wire hangers) atrocity stories.

The show is tweaking the real Bette-B.D. relationship to reinforce its main theme of the two heroines getting old and suffering disrespect because of it. That speech B.D. made in the second (third?) episode, about her mother resenting her because she still had youth and romance, rang false in itself and based on B.D.'s self-portrait in "My Mother's Keeper". Then we get to B.D.'s early fairy-tale romance at 16, leading to lifelong marriage, and this episode makes B.D. her mother's disrespecter and torturer about that. Not really. In the book, B.D. says Bette was horrified and disgusted at the romance (she allegedly wanted B.D. to be her more-than-Mamacita-like lifelong companion, while dating and having affairs her mother could live through vicariously) but had a reversal into graciousness when Jeremy asked for her blessing; she gave her consent to the underage marriage and collaborated with B.D., though domineeringly, on the wedding plans. She gave B.D. an unrestful ride by threatening to change her mind throughout; a couple of weeks after the gracious consent, she burst out at breakfast "You better be nice to me and love me a lot. This is a great thing I'm doing for you. There aren't many mothers who'd let their sixteen-year-old daughter get married." The threat underlying this continued but was not carried out; B.D. describes a beautiful wedding that made her happy and she ultimately appreciated her mother's arrangements.

In the episode, Bette is over-choreographing the ceremony in advance, with the plan for chimes just as the groom kisses the bride presented as oppressive, and rude, rebellious B.D. bursts out with the devastating news that they're already married in a civil ceremony. Not so. The civil ceremony did exist, but took place on Dec. 31st (1963) because Jeremy had been advised by his accountant that if he didn't legally marry till the new year, the planned wedding day on January 4th, he'd take a horrendous tax hit. They immediately told Bette this and she took it badly, but grudgingly came around to it when Church authorities said it was fiscally prudent and practical to have a civil ceremony, and religiously fine as long as the marriage wasn't consummated before the church wedding. With a lot of drama and glitches, Bette came around to that and both weddings took place. And, rather than the chimes being a point of contention, B.D. says, "The most memorable moment of the marriage ceremony, a complete surprise to Jeremy and me, came when the groom was told, 'You may now kiss the bride.' As our lips touched a recording of the most beautiful cathedral bells began to peal joyously through the chapel. It was an extraordinary moment that we shall never forget."

Naturally good writers alter real life to make a better story, but I just wanted to point out that both mother and daughter behaved much better in real life than in the series. We should have love and charity for both of them.

Meanwhile, this really is badly structured, isn't it? They should certainly have started earlier and/or stretched the "Baby Jane" part out longer. Both last week and this week seemed predominantly sad and dreary rather than also dishy and tasty. I was going to record it all end to end on tape (yes) off On Demand and keep it, but unless the final episode ties it all up in an artistically heartening manner, I may not after all.

Thanks for all that info, I've never read B.D's book.

I have very little sympathy for B.D. Hyman because she's a religious fanatic who is either crazy or a liar. She's been telling people Bette was a witch who cursed her family, among other things. There's an article about it upthread. 

[bmoore4026]

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Photo of BD in her wedding dress with Davis.

Awkward!!!

Well, I don't know what to make of this episode.  It would be easy to write Bette off as the villain of this fiasco, but (as Mamacita puts it) Joan "did this to herself", so it feels like well deserved revenge after what Joan did.

That bit with DiHaviland in Lady in a Cage was hysterical.  Sums up the whole movie in a few seconds.  That interviewer asking how she felt about "ruining Crawford's career" was an undeserved low blow.  Crawford was being difficult, the film had to be saved, Bette brought in her best friend to fill the role, it's that simple.  Olivia didn't scheme to ruin anything or anyone.  Again, Joan did this to herself.

Seems to be a bit of a Feud backlash starting here.  That's too bad, I'm still loving this show.  Next week, the last degradation to Joan in the form of Trog and the end of Old Hollywood. 

[benteen]

While I've never understood the appeal of Helen Hunt, I thought it was interesting that an actress who won the Oscar for Best Actress in 1997 directed a show about two women who have both one Best Actress (Lange has a second Oscar for Supporting Actress) who are playing a pair of actresses who both won the Academy Award for Best Actress (with Davis winning two).

Very good episode.  I was glad to see Joan lose this one big as she pushed this way too far with her antics.  She played with fire and got burned badly, which she deserved.  It was fun watching "Joan" film the Sweet Charlotte scenes though I noticed a couple of things wrong.  The scene where Charlotte, Miriam and the Doctor are having dinner was shot indoors and the staircase in Charlotte's castle was on the other side of the room.  I wrote this off as the scenes later being reshot when Olivia joined the cast.

Quote

The show is tweaking the real Bette-B.D. relationship to reinforce its main theme of the two heroines getting old and suffering disrespect because of it. That speech B.D. made in the second (third?) episode, about her mother resenting her because she still had youth and romance, rang false in itself and based on B.D.'s self-portrait in "My Mother's Keeper".

I still maintain that scene with BD giving that speech was the worst scene in the entire show.  It felt too modern and too on the nose.  Like the writer having the benefit of hindsight to do things differently.  Just awful. 

I'm sorry Bette was no great mother but I can't drum up much sympathy for BD.

Edited April 17, 2017 by benteen

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember to stick to the episode in this topic; discussion of events that happen AFTER this episode should go into the History topic, and may be removed.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I'm not saying the book didn't cause Bette pain, but the scandal from it was minor and never came near the kind of reception Christina Crawford got.    

I think the big difference is that Mommy Dearest has become Joan Crawford to many people out there and that cannot be said for BD's book.  I mean if the average person hears Joan Crawford - wire hangers probably comes to mind. I'm sure Bette Davis was hurt by her daughters book but it never caused the kind of culture resonance that Dearest did.

I read both books when they came out and honestly I remember practically nothing from BD's book but I do remember Mommy Dearest (and no I don't remember it from the movie because I've never seen it)!

This was not my favorite episode, but I really laughed at the photo of Bette, Olivia and Bob with the Coke. Good times.

Quote

It would be easy to write Bette off as the villain of this fiasco, but (as Mamacita puts it) Joan "did this to herself", so it feels like well deserved revenge after what Joan did.

I have to admit the 5 year old in me rather enjoyed watching Bette getting a little revenge!

Edited April 17, 2017 by hypnotoad

[The Wild Sow]

6 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

The actor playing Cotten was not very memorable.

It's Matthew Glave!  Glen Gulia from  The Wedding Singer!

I didn't recognize him either, but he's been in  everything.  A real HITG.

[tennisgurl]

...is it weird that I REALLY want to rent Lady in a Cage now?

[The Wild Sow]

8 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

17 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

ONE line from Agnes Moorehead?  Dang! 

And apparently I missed that line!  Which scene was it?  The character isn't credited on IMDb, yet.  BTW, the episode was directed by Helen Hunt, whose Oscar I would have awarded to any of the other four nominees that year.

 

 

Oops, it was 2 lines!

"My my, Bette, I thought your rivalry was put on for the press!"  and  "You guys stop teasing her (Bette) now."  What a waste of a great character!

Agnes was played by Earlene Davis.

Meeting Ms Moorehead really was one of the highlights of my young teen years.  She truly was a gracious lady (and Ricardo Montalban truly was an asshole!)

Edited April 17, 2017 by The Wild Sow

[LongDistanceClara]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

...is it weird that I REALLY want to rent Lady in a Cage now?

After finding this trailer, I want to see it too. This includes the scene KZJ recreated. 

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God, that movie looks even more amazing than I imagined! I guess it was the Snakes on a Plane of the 60s?

[iMonrey]

Quote

If I had to look at this comparison and choose one as the beauty and the other as the ugly duckling, I think I'd be stymied.

Anyone can look good in a studio glamour shot. Davis was far from ugly but by Hollywood standards she was never considered beautiful. Also, the photos above showing Crawford during filming indicate she had already transitioned into her blonde phase by this time. I wonder why the show isn't changing Lange's look to match. I definitely think of her with blonde hair by that age because I remember her appearances on TV in Night Gallery, The Sixth Sense, etc. 

[newyawk]

This was the first episode where I actually felt sorry for Joan, bc generally she has come across as an (pardon the language) asshole.  But the scene where she broke down in her trailer railing at Bob was a good one, it was like the first real semi-public crack in Joan's facade. 

That is quite a bit of work, having to maintain a front in public AND behind the scenes. Something had to give.

17 hours ago, ThatsDarling said:

References to Bette's supposed unattractiveness--Warner saying she didn't have an ounce of sex appeal, Joan basically calling her ugly to her face--don't sting like they should when the actress is played by Susan Sarandon. It's an awful stretch to imagine her as the unsightly creature described in the writing. 

I don't know how anyone who has ever seen Bette in "Jezebel" could have called her ugly. She was really gorgeous when she was young. 

[AuntiePam]

1 minute ago, newyawk said:

I don't know how anyone who has ever seen Bette in "Jezebel" could have called her ugly. She was really gorgeous when she was young. 

It was her personality and intelligence that shone, not her physical qualities.  (Her teeth weren't Hollywood-perfect -- small, with some gaps.)  She had wonderful, expressive eyes -- so much charm.  I think she was at her most alluring in The Petrified Forest.

The publicity stills can be deceiving, as can makeup and lighting and filters.  Anyone remember "Glamor Shots"?  The Hollywood treatment for us ordinary folks -- photographers and makeup people worked wonders on Plain Janes.

So Bette and Aldrich continued their affair?  That's disappointing, but understandable, I guess.

[newyawk]

Yes, but Bette was genuinely pretty in her earlier movies. In Of Human Bondage, she was really pretty.

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, ThatsDarling said:

References to Bette's supposed unattractiveness--Warner saying she didn't have an ounce of sex appeal, Joan basically calling her ugly to her face--don't sting like they should when the actress is played by Susan Sarandon. It's an awful stretch to imagine her as the unsightly creature described in the writing. 

 

18 hours ago, Marmiarmo said:

Funny thing is, I find them almost as unimaginable applied to Bette Davis!  She was actually quite lovely well into her 30s, and was never some unsightly, eye-searing hag...unless she chose to play one.  But I agree that Susan Sarandon doesn't have even an edge of the plain-Jane quality Bette herself thought she possessed.  She's really quite lovely, for any age.

 

15 hours ago, GaT said:

This part confused me

The actresses had to supply their own wardrobes for the movie? 

Was Joan really considered “the most beautiful girl in the world” when she was young? And was Bette really considered unattractive? From looking at pictures, I don't see either one.

 

11 hours ago, blaase said:

That really bothered me, found it to be stupid sloppy writing. There is no way Joan thought she was "the prettiest girl in the world" 

In her heyday Joan always believed Garbo was the most beautiful girl at MGM. Joan's quote when seeing Garbo in person “My knees went weak. She was breathtaking. If ever I thought of becoming a lesbian, that was it

 

9 hours ago, ciprus said:

I agree with this. I have very mixed feelings about Joan. I thought Bette was annoying and it was just super bitchy to comment on Joan's performance and saying to Bob that her scenes were unnecessary and should be cut. Maybe I'm harsh but the longer the episode went on, the less sorry I felt sorry for Joan. I felt for her in the beginning but the faking illness and ignoring their warnings of suing her for breach of contract, and then being shocked when being served... Grow the hell up! It was satisfying to see her replaced.

Good for Mamacita for getting out of there!

This goes to the larger problem of categorizing women instead of understanding their complexities.  My eyes almost rolled out of my head at the schlocky writing of "What's was it like to be the most beautiful girl in the world" dramatic pause "It's never enough"..."What was it like to be the most talented girl in the the world" dramatic pause "It's never enough".  Hokey 2nd rate soap opera writing at best.   Both of these lines are very problematic.  It makes us put two women into unfair categories.  Bette was amazingly talented, but not considered attractive/Joan Crawford was amazingly beautiful, but not considered a great talent.  Neither of these things are true and it was stupid to put these great actresses in these boxes.  It is also rather cruel, because Sarandon has aged considerably better then Lange and it does not hold true on screen.

[newyawk]

The guy they got to play Victor Buono is perfectly cast.

[Blakeston]

Bette Davis wasn't thought of as a bombshell, but when she was young I'd say she was considered attractive in Hollywood the way that stars like Natalie Portman and Reese Witherspoon are considered attractive in Hollywood today. Meaning that she wasn't going to get sex-on-a-stick roles, but they felt it was appropriate to cast her opposite some of the hottest men in Hollywood.

[blaase]

52 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

 

This goes to the larger problem of categorizing women instead of understanding their complexities.  My eyes almost rolled out of my head at the schlocky writing of "What's was it like to be the most beautiful girl in the world" dramatic pause "It's never enough"..."What was it like to be the most talented girl in the the world" dramatic pause "It's never enough".  Hokey 2nd rate soap opera writing at best.   Both of these lines are very problematic.  It makes us put two women into unfair categories.  Bette was amazingly talented, but not considered attractive/Joan Crawford was amazingly beautiful, but not considered a great talent.  Neither of these things are true and it was stupid to put these great actresses in these boxes.  It is also rather cruel, because Sarandon has aged considerably better then Lange and it does not hold true on screen.

Ryan Murphy ruining things, he always finds a way to do so...

In the 30's Joan believed she was more beautiful than MGM "it girl" Norma Shearer (and her wonk eye) and in the 60's Joan believed she was better looking than Bette (who aged badly)  However Joan never believed she was the most beautiful actress she just carried herself like she was, which is a big difference. Joan had glamour, she knew how to dress and to project confidence and sex appeal.

 

Joan was very talented, maybe not as much as Bette but certainly more than most actresses these days.

Edited April 17, 2017 by blaase

[newyawk]

Joan trying to shift the entire focus of the film from Charlotte to Miriam was kind of jawdropping and hilarious. I loved Bob laying down the law with her, with all the f-bombs he could muster.

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

Joan had crazy good facial bone structure.

Yes, and that's one reason why Jessica Lange seemed such an unusual choice to play her.  Jessica was cute when she was young, but she always had a nose that was too flat and small for her face and rather small eyes.  She is almost opposite in type to Joan's huge eyes and perfectly  sculpted nose.

Bette was never ugly,  but I would call her cute to Joan's beautiful. 

However, Bette proves, in film after film, that a woman's beauty is as much in the way she carries herself as in perfection of features.  Watching Bette Davis in, "Now Voyager," she goes from ugly to drop dead stunning, with just a few make-up and wardrobe changes.  She never had to be beautiful because she knew how to act beautiful.

[blaase]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, and that's one reason why Jessica Lange seemed such an unusual choice to play her.  Jessica was cute when she was young, but she always had a nose that was too flat and small for her face and rather small eyes.  She is almost opposite in type to Joan's huge eyes and perfectly  sculpted nose.

Bette was never ugly,  but I would call her cute to Joan's beautiful. 

However, Bette proves, in film after film, that a woman's beauty is as much in the way she carries herself as in perfection of features.  Watching Bette Davis in, "Now Voyager," she goes from ugly to drop dead stunning, with just a few make-up and wardrobe changes.  She never had to be beautiful because she knew how to act beautiful.

I agree Joan was just very striking especially head on ( her profile wasn't flattering) she had a  great jawline and amazing eyes, If Joan was around today and 5' 10 she would be a supermodel with her bone structure. She had a very high fashion face.

 

Bette was very pretty, but more of that girl next door/approachable beauty, same with a young Jessica Lange. Pretty women just not as striking. I can see how some people prefer that kind of beauty however.

[newyawk]

I think Joan was "handsome" as opposed to beautiful. She had very strong features, certainly she was striking, but she became more masculine in appearance as she aged.   I don't think she was a great beauty in the tradition of Garbo, Vivien Leigh, Hedy Lamarr or Rita Hayworth. 

Beauty is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, just as there are Bettys and Veronicas, there are people who for their own reasons, prefer one over the other.

Edited April 17, 2017 by newyawk

[JudyObscure]

Oh yes, I can think of quite a few who were probably more likely to get the, "Most beautiful woman in the world," tag back then.  Hedy Lamar, Gene Tierney, Lana Turner.  Garbo is the one I can't seem to see as others see her.  To me her jaw line wasn't great and her lips too thin.

Even now there are some People magazine "Most beautiful," picks that I can't see at all.  

[debbie m]

18 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I agree about Shipka.  She was almost as bad in this episode as she was as the neighbor's daughter in Baby Jane.

Joan got my sympathy after tonight.  It must have been horrible to work in Hollywood in those years -- horrible for both of them.  Makes me wonder how any of the actresses back then managed to live normal lives.  I assume it's better now.

I've been thinking that CZJ just doesn't work as Olivia, but then I found this clip of Bette and Olivia on I've Got A Secret -- filmed in 1965 -- and maybe the casting director got it right.  Olivia would have been almost 50 -- she looked darn good for 50. 

 I kept thinking that CZJ's Olivia looked more like Vivien Leigh in The Roman Spring of Mrs Stone but after seeing that clip I can see how he chose CZJ.

[Twopper]

Well, I have set the dvr to record Baby Jane tomorrow on TCM.   I wish they had Hush, Hush on the schedule .  I was in 7th grade when it came out, and I only remember bits of it.

I am mostly enjoying this.  I knew a lot about Bette Davis, but my idea of Joan Crawford comes more from  Mommie Dearest, although I never read it.  I did watch Mildred Pierce about 6 months ago.  For some reason, Jessica Lange in this role reminds me of Leona Helmsley--Leona in the late 60's or early 70's, long before her tax scandal.   I loved the scene with the coke machine at the end of the this episode.  I am somewhat puzzled by the stubbornness of Crawford.   I wonder if her drinking clouded her judgment or if she just thought they wouldn't dare dump her.  I was a bit shocked that they left her in her trailer, although I somehow knew that would happen as soon as I saw her go into the trailer and take a nip.

And why is she in an oxygen tent if her illness is mostly fake?

[stillhere1900]

Where are Joan's children during this time ?

[newyawk]

7 minutes ago, stillhere1900 said:

Where are Joan's children during this time ?

In boarding school or strapped to a bed. Except for the Stepford Twins, who are probably switched off and stashed in a broom closet.

[smiley13]

The treatment of Joan in this episode was really rotten by everyone.  Perhaps my dislike of Sarandon makes me dislike Bette, but I feel badly for Joan and have through the whole series.  

[txhorns79]

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And why is she in an oxygen tent if her illness is mostly fake?

Probably for attention, and to make the illness look real, so she can say that they fired a sick woman, to make them look bad.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, LongDistanceClara said:

After finding this trailer, I want to see it too. This includes the scene KZJ recreated. 

"I'm trapped in a small, private elevator."  My God, that really was a line of dialogue...

Bad writing aside, I love all these looks that we are getting into films like Lady in a Cage or Straight Jacket or Four to Texas.  It continues to be one of the great treats of this show.

[newyawk]

Frankly, Joan herself invited a lot of the derision and ridicule she received, with the diva stunts she pulled, and her pretentious, holier-than-thou demeanor when it was well known in Hollywood what her actual background was.  Jack Warner was really the only out-and-out asshole shown thus far, and maybe Louis B Mayer,  who really treated her like a sack of rotten vegetables. Joan brought the lawsuit on herself, though.

I liked how she walked the wheelchair to the door and sat down in it before opening the door. 

[Mojoker]

21 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I agree about Shipka.  She was almost as bad in this episode as she was as the neighbor's daughter in Baby Jane.

Joan got my sympathy after tonight.  It must have been horrible to work in Hollywood in those years -- horrible for both of them.  Makes me wonder how any of the actresses back then managed to live normal lives.  I assume it's better now.

I've been thinking that CZJ just doesn't work as Olivia, but then I found this clip of Bette and Olivia on I've Got A Secret -- filmed in 1965 -- and maybe the casting director got it right.  Olivia would have been almost 50 -- she looked darn good for 50. 

That was fun, thanks!  (But I still think that CZJ is completely wrong for de Havilland.)

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

"I'm trapped in a small, private elevator."  My God, that really was a line of dialogue...

In the original trailer linked to above, I do not beieve we see ODH saying that line, we only hear her.

In the recreation in yesterday's, episode, we see her full on saying it.

I think the line probably was recorded only for the trailer after the shoot, to help explain the premise. It would seem silly for the character to shout to her captors where she is trapped, something they already know (as the audience also would at that point in the movie).

But it was more dramatic for Feud to show it than to faithfully recreate the trailer itself.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Florinaldo

[qtpye]

The following is from Tom and Lorenzo, who can say it better then I can ever hope to:

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First: the show’s problem trying to layer a feminist argument over a campy story is only getting worse as the show progresses, turning its feminism into the weepy kind and its camp into the soggy kind. Second: there is a fatal problem with the casting vis-a-vis the stated themes of the show: aging beauty vs. artistic merit. The “unattractive” artist is being portrayed by a legendary beauty who doesn’t seem to really have a handle on what it’s like to feel ugly and the emotionally stunted beauty with limited talented is being acted to the rafters by someone unloading every single ability, trick and technique she has in her considerable arsenal as a highly celebrated actress.

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Let’s start with the second point: Susan Sarandon got some fabulous scenes this episode as Bette explained to Bob Aldrich about her lifelong issue with Joan and how it intersects with her own feelings of inadequacy regarding her looks and desirability. But as good an actress as Sarandon can be, she can’t help but give the game up with her own body language. Every flip of her hair or widening of her eyes doesn’t come off like the actions of a woman covering up her perceived physical inadequacies with bravado, they come off like a woman who’s used to being looked at when she flips her hair or widens her eyes dramatically.

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On the flipside of the that is Joan, who’s being written as this emotionally stunted beauty with no understanding of the art of acting, being nonetheless given the full Vincent Van Gogh-esque tortured-artist portrayal by Lange, who excels at playing brilliant, beset women. It becomes, over time, hard to believe that Joan would have any limits as an actress at all, given how insanely emotive she tends to be. In addition, the fudging of ages sometimes really bites the show in the ass. While Sarandon and Lange are close in age, they are both much older than the woman they’re portraying at this time. With Sarandon, this might not be such an issue since she looks amazing, except she’s supposed to be playing a woman who looks…decidedly not amazing, according to the people around her and the character herself. With Lange it’s an issue because there are times when she comes off considerably older than the age Joan is supposed to be here. Then it gets even wackier with the casting of people like Hedda Hopper, who is literally decades older than both women at this time or Olivia DeHavilland, a contemporary of theirs, played by an actress two decades younger than them. These vast differences in the ages of the actors vs. the characters they’re playing might not matter so much, except the entire point of the story – and every action made by the two main characters – hinges on the very concept of aging.

[Corvino]

8 hours ago, ciprus said:

I have very little sympathy for B.D. Hyman because she's a religious fanatic who is either crazy or a liar. She's been telling people Bette was a witch who cursed her family, among other things. There's an article about it upthread. 

Oh dear; I always defend her, as I did here, because her book was very different from "Mommie Dearest" and, as I said, described a lot of love amid all the awfulness. The fact that she has now reached this place in her perception of the past is bad news. I was just going on her position in the book, which was written just before she converted to fundamentalist Christianity. Too bad she couldn't have become a liberal Episcopalian like me or an unchurched vague believer like her mother; retconning her mother into a voodoo practitioner who cursed her (B.D.'s) family with demons is perhaps slightly worse than the "Feud" writers retconning her into her mother's bitter torturer.

[AndySmith]

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She never had to be beautiful because she knew how to act beautiful.

Yeah. She sold you on the character being sexy and beautiful. And you believed it.

[Gemma Violet]

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You can tell it's Houmas House by the width of the columns.

When I was a teen in the 70s, my mother would take me to different antebellum homes.  It was sort of her hobby.  I remember going to one where the guide told us this was where Bette Davis filmed Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte.  My mother and I had seen the movie a couple of times so it was very exciting for us.  For some reason, all these years, I've been thinking that it was Oak Alley, another stately home, where we were told that.  Now I realize that it was Houmas House.  

[marys1000]

I've said before that what hurts this the whole way through is that Sarandon is too good looking for the BD part and Lange is way too old (she may look good for her age but it is still too old).  It just doesn't work.  

I've sort of felt that the show makes the feud out to be mostly on Joan's end with Davis just reacting.  Have no idea whether that is true or not.  This episode seemed to take it to a whole nother level with Joan seeming to be crazy insecure, crazy paranoid, out of control reactions.  When I think about it sort of hard I oh yea, Davis probably set up the hotel and left at the set thing but it sort of leaves it as something that happened believable and then Joan is crazy dramatic about it.  If Davis actively participate in the feud I don't see it as much.  My general impression, much overdone in this episode, is that it was mostly all on Joan.  I didn't enjoy watching it, I felt like this episode and maybe the series at this point should have a different title.  LIke Joan Crawford has paranoid delusions about Bette Davis.  

The Mamacita role - was she really there 24/7?  The woman had 9 children and a billion grandkids.  I'm surprised she had time to work at all.