S05.E05: Lotus 1-2-3

[SlackerInc]

15 hours ago, stagmania said:

I guess I'll stand alone in my corner, because I really liked this episode and I'm not bothered by the slow pace of the season. I always prefer the emotional and existential episodes to the plot heavy ones, and there was lots of good stuff to chew on here.

You're not alone!  There are several of us.

13 hours ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

 I liked how Paige and Phillip were eating their leftover Chinese food with forks.  In tv and movies, the people always use chopsticks and I honestly don't know anyone in real life who uses chopsticks for their Chinese food.

  Reveal hidden contents

IMDB says that Alex Ozerov, the actor who plays Mischa, appears in 7 episodes in 2016-2017.  Anyone keep track of how many he's been in so far?

 

Huh, just the opposite for me.  The only people I know who don't use them are children.  And I have no Asian relatives, nor have I ever been to Asia.

What do you do with the chopsticks?  Just throw them away?  That's what we do with the fortune cookies.

7 hours ago, Trillian said:

I thought they were burnt potatoes. Unappetizing, whatever they were. 

I thought they looked like brown bread, and that they would be very tasty after a few minutes by the fire.

1 hour ago, scrb said:

But the previews show

Please use the spoiler hiders when talking about previews!

[Bretton]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:18 PM, whiporee said:

Ben apparently does not have an Phillip's mad skills, because E could not have looked more disinterested, and I think disinterested is  hard place to get to in that situation. 

Skills? This has nothing to do with skills. It's all about emotional connection - or a lack thereof. Elizabeth is more emotionally aware than ever in her life. And, as such, sex is different for her now. Both E and P are less comfortable with the "honey-work" now. Why? Because their shared connection has changed their perspectives.

[Anela]

11 hours ago, zibnchy said:

When Elizabeth showed up at the end I honestly thought she was there to kill Tuan. Then when he said he was going upstairs I thought maybe he grabbed his go bag and headed for the hills.

Sounds like I missed more than I thought. I had to find it online, and I'm waiting for it to get to that point now.

That was a woman watching Stan, wasn't it? As he left with his date? I missed that earlier (I skipped ahead a bit just now, with it online.) 

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

Sounds like I missed more than I thought. I had to find it online, and I'm waiting for it to get to that point now.

For what it's worth, when she came in the door and looked at Phillip, I only thought that she realized something was really broken with Phillip and the wrongful killing (they are all wrong, but this time for them as well).  I did not get any sense that Tuan was in any danger, except of not being able to finish his fries. 

Also, I thought they killed him because he had seen them, and they could not let him live -- like the old woman in the mail robot repair company, or the poor grad student in a university lab who saw Phillip in disguise as a janitor, and Phillip had to kill him.  They did not kill the Kansas scientist because of the wheat, but because he could identify them. 

[Bretton]

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

It is new. When Phillip starts to waver in his commitment, Elizabeth fucks him. Not when he's feeling blue or sad or whatever, but those times he starts to sincerely question what they do. There may have been times it hasn't been shown on TV that she's held his hand and tried to make nice, but a) Phillip is clearly distressed about Martha. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. b) Phillip is wondering why they can't grow their own wheat in the USSR. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. We've seen them have sex before, but the only times we're shown E taking charge like that is when P is losing faith. That's got to be a writer/showrunner's choice. It's not the totality of their relationship, but it is the pattern she's shown whenever he starts to lose faith in the cause. I would not be at all surprised to know that was one of the things she was told and taught very clearly at spy school. 

Last night's phone call was the first time I can remember that E's reached to Phillip as a real spouse. I don't think there's tons of evidence she's seen him as anything other than her spy partner for most of the show's duration (hell, didn't she narc on him once?), but I do think that's changing now. But I also think she went to their house with Luan with the intent of doing more of the same, but she either changed her mind or decided it wouldn't work. 

You're forgetting (or overlooking) A LOT. E has shown plenty of real love for Philip as her romantic partner. So much so that I'm wondering if you're watching the same show as the rest of us. Do you not remember when she called Philip while he was in bed with Irina? She was calling him because she missed him. She said "come home". Did that sound like a casual partnership-in-idealogically-driven-crime to you? Or what about when she showed genuine jeoulosy about Martha? Did that look like a casual partnership-in-idealogically-driven-crime response to you? What about her hurt feelings, which led to their temporary separation, when she found out P slept with Irina and lied about it? Again, would a casual partner-in-idealogically-driven-crime even care in that situation? I could go on and on, but I think the point is clear.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Bretton

[Cthulhudrew]

12 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I think I noticed that the name on the school said Falls Church middle school but in that day (I think) most schools for Henry's age would be called Junior High (7-9). I can't remember if 1984 was in the era of the great school consolidation movement or not. Probably the production people got it right and I'm just not remembering correctly.

I think it might depend on the area of the country you were in. When we lived in Phoenix in the 80s my brother went to Shea Middle School which was only grades 7 and 8, my sister was at Shadow Mountain High School (9-12), and I was at Desert Cove Elementary (1-6). When we moved to Indianapolis in '84, my elementary school (Harcourt) was only grades 1-5, Northview Middle School was 6-8, and North Central High School was 9-12. 

That said, I will echo the sentiment that if Henry was being given a chance to move into Algebra II in middle school, he must have already been in an advanced math course. I was in advanced math all through middle school, and was given a chance to be bumped up to the next course level in 8th grade (I can't recall offhand if it would have been algebra II or not), but I turned it down because I didn't want to get up an hour early every morning and have to go take classes over at the high school (not to mention suffering what I thought would be horrendous discrimination as a "nerd", when I already felt like I didn't fit in.) I've still never mentioned it to either of my parents (and feel a little guilty and slightly remorseful about it today).

[kokapetl]

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Is it just me or does Philip really do look different at different times?  I mean, WITHOUT a disguise he looks different.  Last night, when he was lying in bed AFTER the sex scene his face looked quite different to me.  He actually appeared to be 10 years younger than normal!  

Also, to me, the disguise that Philip wore when trailing Stan's girlfriend had an uncanny resemblance to the EST instructor shown at the end.  Is that coincidental?

A person with a saggy face will always look better lying horizontally and face up. 

9 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I sat there thinking "Dad brought home lumps of coal?" Then when young Phillip took a bite I thought "What did Dad do to get those truffles?" I 'm glad you all knew it was bread!

I thought it was coal at first. I guess it was rye bread or something. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Kokapetl

[kokapetl]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Would't killing Tuan cause a pretty big international problem? He's a Vietnamese agent. The Russians don't just get to kill him when the mission's done. They're expecting him back in one piece, surely.

I don't think Tuan is on secondment from a Vietnamese Spy Agency, I'm certain he works for the USSR. 

[scartact]

7 hours ago, jjj said:

I applaud the way they blocked the living room scene with Henry -- when they were standing, he was sitting, and visa versa.  Because if we had seen him towering over Elizabeth/Phillip, instead of Algebra II, we would have been saying, "why aren't you in Trig yet?"  Avoiding having him stand near them allows the illusion he is a kid and only a few weeks have passed since he was a foot shorter. 

I think the switch off between Henry and Phil/Liz respectively sitting and standing (and vice versa) also channels their discrepancy in communication and understanding with one another. They're never on the same level; Philip and Elizabeth try to praise Henry, but he doesn't really accept it. They aren't seeing eye to eye. This further marginalizes Henry from his parents.

[millennium]

On 4/5/2017 at 0:53 AM, Erin9 said:

 

So.... is Renee a spy? 

Worse than a spy.   She's Marita Covarrubias.

[Dowel Jones]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:18 PM, whiporee said:

I'd bet Stan's girl is FBI rather than Russian. 

I remember an old spy movie comedy called The President's Analyst, with James Coburn, I believe.  He played the super secret agent man who was friends with the Russian spy, and throughout the movie both were confused by the presence of a third, non-allied spymaster.  He was from an all powerful agency called TPC.  Near the end of the movie they revealed who TPC was:  The Phone Company.

[Inquisitionist]

5 hours ago, jjj said:

Also, I thought they killed him because he had seen them, and they could not let him live -- like the old woman in the mail robot repair company, or the poor grad student in a university lab who saw Phillip in disguise as a janitor, and Phillip had to kill him.  They did not kill the Kansas scientist because of the wheat, but because he could identify them. 

I thought that in both cases they could not leave any evidence that they had been there at all, as that would raise suspicions that could lead back to the KGB.  Hence, having Lois Smith's character essentially kill herself with her medication and removing the body of scientist guy.   

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, magemaud said:

I thought Philip in his beard and glasses disguise (when he was tailing Renee) looked just like the EST lecturer! 

I agree Oleg's father looks nothing like him, so maybe his mother came back from her years in the gulag with a little comrade on board. 

At first I thought Martha wasn't attractive enough for Oleg, but after he turned down the three "silly young girls" I thought maybe he would be interested in a more mature woman. It give me hope that maybe we'll see an Oleg-Martha meeting! 

Ref. Bolden above: Is this in response to my question on this? I asked the same thing twice. Apparently, no one else noticed.  The resemblance is astounding.  WHY?

Did P just disguise himself like the instructor out of amusement, boredom, .....?

[Ina123]

The Tuan mission isn't really over, is it? Won't they now concentrate on the wife since she got the job teaching Russian. Didn't Elizabeth even propose in the car that they could eventually have the names of all the American spies.

[Silly Angel]

I wish I could explain my feeling on this, but I think Philip disguised himself to look like the est instructor out of some combination of emulation, running out of/trying something new with disguises/a private joke, a personal movement away from his work that he could express without anyone knowing, like his est thing was a bubble, compartmentalized like so many aspects of his life, and he carried that bubble into the work that was making him feel unsafe, unreal and the depository of bad memories. I told you this would be inarticulate. Almost a taunting, or a lancing of a wound. Ugh, forget it, more coffee...

As for Tuan, if he was assigned to P&E to deal with the agriculture situation, and there turned out not to be a situation, I don't see why he'd be reassigned and the Eckerts quietly have to "move" to Atlanta or some likely-sounding airport hub. Although with Ekaterina getting a new job, they might want to stay on the family for a while. Especially since I doubt the show would have toggled back and forth between the USSR and the US, grain- and food-wise, for half a damn season without resolution.

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, Bretton said:

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 0:18 AM, whiporee said:

Ben apparently does not have an Phillip's mad skills, because E could not have looked more disinterested, and I think disinterested is  hard place to get to in that situation. 

Skills? This has nothing to do with skills. It's all about emotional connection - or a lack thereof. Elizabeth is more emotionally aware than ever in her life. And, as such, sex is different for her now. Both E and P are less comfortable with the "honey-work" now. Why? Because their shared connection has changed their perspectives.

This is so true.  Not to get into TMI, but I have spoken to women who have guys just want to jump into cunnilingus, because they think that is a surefire way to turn women on.  They have been told to slow their roll, you have to build to something like that for some ladies (of course it is dependent on the lady and the situation).  There is a sad and famous scene in the movie Blue Valentine, where Ryan Gosling is being slapped away by Michelle Williams (he is trying to recreate a moment of passion), because she is not feeling the emotional connections and is really not in the mood.

Phillip has been trained to be a good lover, not because he had acrobatic skills with his tongue (though he probably does), but that he makes each one of his lady marks the emotional connections they need.  He was the dorky romantic mysterious Romeo with Martha.  He realized quickly that Kimmy was looking for a father figure and he did not have to sleep with her to get her trust.  Phillip knows how to read women and probably people in general.

[teddysmom]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

Worse than a spy.   She's Marita Covarrubias.

Oh hell yeah!! 

That was quite an "oops" moment at the end.  I know P&E are totally indoctrinated into "Russia -   Stalin was Slaughtering People for a Really Good Reason & USA Sucks Dicks Forevs"  (E way more than P but still) but wake the fuck up and apply some logic.  Why in hell would the US try to wipe out Russian people? Think about how hard that would be and that even if we were shipping wheat with bugs that would destroy the wheat , they'd figure it out. 

Even after WWII we did everything we could to help Germany. Little thing called the Marshall Plan, might want to get out one of Paige's encyclopedias. 

I think we know why they didn't want Stassy to hook up with Phillip. He'd tell them how bad it was in Mother Russia, what with the bread lines and the corruption and the labor camps and then maybe Phillip would be all "wait a minute what the hell have I been murdering people and fucking boring women and teenage girls for? 

Edited April 6, 2017 by teddysmom

[curbcrusher]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The pace seems off, way off for this show.  Also, predictability, because many of us figured out the poison grain was bullshit right away, for many reasons, lack of security, it didn't happen in real life, and we also predicted it was all to devastate Philip.

 

I haven't really minded the wheat story, I think it also creates a chink in Elizabeth's world for the first time. To date everyone she has worked with to "save the world" has had at least a smidgen of "take down the American imperialist and the world will be a better place" to them. Gregory, Hans, Tuan all have reasons to had the Imperialist Americans and take them down. Even Pastor Groovy Hair is on the lite version of that train. Now along comes Ben, a guy working for an evil corporation, building GMOs (the irony),  laughing, joking and having a good time while he spends his days trying to come up with methods to starve the good people of the USSR (a paraphrase of what she shared with Phillip last week in bed).

But wait, he's not. He's working to save the world with better crops, and he's not a radical, drug dealing, take down the system kind of guy. He's someone that realistically might have more impact on "saving the world" than Elizabeth and Phillip every will, and he's not one of her kind. 

Elizabeth is not only suffering from the whiplash of the Centre being wrong about the wheat thing, she's just faced evidence that her world view might be wrong.

[qtpye]

20 minutes ago, curbcrusher said:

But wait, he's not. He's working to save the world with better crops, and he's not a radical, drug dealing, take down the system kind of guy. He's someone that realistically might have more impact on "saving the world" than Elizabeth and Phillip every will, and he's not one of her kind. 

Elizabeth is not only suffering from the whiplash of the Centre being wrong about the wheat thing, she's just faced evidence that her world view might be wrong.

Yeah, you get that E likes the guy (though not romantically), despite herself.  He is just a good granola type of guy, who really does want to make the world a better place.  This is not a person who is in a plot to starve the Russian people.  Perhaps, the Russian people are being starved, by the very Russian government E has devoted her life to?  I think she is still loyal to the cause, but it did cause a millisecond of doubt.

[Bannon]

59 minutes ago, curbcrusher said:

 

I haven't really minded the wheat story, I think it also creates a chink in Elizabeth's world for the first time. To date everyone she has worked with to "save the world" has had at least a smidgen of "take down the American imperialist and the world will be a better place" to them. Gregory, Hans, Tuan all have reasons to had the Imperialist Americans and take them down. Even Pastor Groovy Hair is on the lite version of that train. Now along comes Ben, a guy working for an evil corporation, building GMOs (the irony),  laughing, joking and having a good time while he spends his days trying to come up with methods to starve the good people of the USSR (a paraphrase of what she shared with Phillip last week in bed).

But wait, he's not. He's working to save the world with better crops, and he's not a radical, drug dealing, take down the system kind of guy. He's someone that realistically might have more impact on "saving the world" than Elizabeth and Phillip every will, and he's not one of her kind. 

Elizabeth is not only suffering from the whiplash of the Centre being wrong about the wheat thing, she's just faced evidence that her world view might be wrong.

I haven't minded the wheat story as much as I wish they had written it better. When I have an issue with this show (and I really do like it quite a bit), beyond the mishandling of the character of Stan, it is because they too often get Cloak and Daggery, instead of trusting the audience to appreciate the psychological aspects of the story as being the centerpiece. Ironically enough, I think this show needed to have more of a Russian literature approach to storytelling.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Bannon
spelling

[Juliegirlj]

I think Phillip and Elizabeth chose the wrong kid to bring into the family business. 

Phillip is a stud. It takes skill to have sex with someone you aren't attracted to while letting sad memories wash over you. 

Not only was Elizabeth wrong about the wheat guy, but, she actually likes him, and he is well endowed, from the look on her face when he coupled with her. 

Stan's new woman is either a CIA NOC or a Russian mole. ( or, it is a Walking Dead reunion)! 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Juliegirlj

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, Anela said:

That was a woman watching Stan, wasn't it? As he left with his date? I missed that earlier (I skipped ahead a bit just now, with it online.) 

Yes. She was helping Philip with surveillance.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:14 PM, crashdown said:

I hear that sentiment expressed often, and I just never get.  I'm hopelessly in love with all of these poor, tragic fools.  I can't see any way out of its ending miserably for all of them, but I'd love for them to be happy.

Call me Paige, but I don't see this ending happily for anybody. It's an unfolding tragedy.

On 4/4/2017 at 9:44 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Question: I don't understand the threat Olg's supervisor made to the store manager. Was the idea that if the man co-operated, his son would return from Afghanistan/be reassigned to another post or was it that he had a realitivy easy position in Afghanistan (Saigon soldier working in an office in Vietnam) and they would have him transferred to the front/a more difficult position.

I thought it was a threat to transfer the son to a more dangerous position.

On 4/4/2017 at 10:25 PM, PinkRibbons said:

The translations continue to be so sadly lacking. "Son of a bitch" has a direct literal Russian translation that I use all the time. And yet they went with a more printable insult that as far as I know doesn't have an English equivalent. It's definitely not as strong. Even so I really liked the guy who Oleg and skeevy partner guy were trying to interrogate. He didn't tell them to leave him alone, he told them to get the hell out.

I knew, from the tone, he was saying something stronger - and said to the mister that I couldn't wait to read the forums to find out what he said. Thanks, PinkRibbons.

On 4/5/2017 at 6:27 AM, stagmania said:

I do think Elizabeth felt bad about their mistake, but in a different way than Phillip. For him, the pain is more existential-he doesn't want to hurt people anymore, he no longer has strong faith in their righteousness, and it's chipping away at his soul. Elizabeth, on the other hand, still has her cause and truly believes that what they're doing is for the greater good, and can view occasional mistakes as unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage. So she feels bad they killed an innocent man, but most of her concern was for Phillip and how she knew the knowledge would hit him. At this point, I think she understands that she's able to compartmentalize and cope with the nastier parts of their work much better than him, and it was a very generous thing for her to offer to take on his burden. Of course she wants to comfort him-I think the show has gone through great pains to show us her evolution in falling in love with him for real and trying to understand him better.

I think so too. I think because she's not as emo as Phillip or Paige, she is often taken as uncaring or emotionless. But she's a person who keeps going. Her discovery has, I believe, shaken her to the core. But she soldiers on. Because that's who she is.

On 4/5/2017 at 6:59 AM, MissBluxom said:

If I was Henry, the only thing I would have wanted my dad to say to me was, "I'm proud of you".

If you were a travel agent in Washington D.C., how would you feel if some very young man came into your office and in halting English said, "Hello. My name is Mischa and I am looking for my father. Maybe it could be that you are my father? Do you think that you could be my father?"

I can just see it - a Soviet version of the P.D. Eastman book, "Are You My Mother."

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I thought they looked like brown bread, and that they would be very tasty after a few minutes by the fire.

I thought they were coal nuggets at first (like the reviewer), they didn't look like any brown or rye bread I ever ate growing up in Europe. To me, it seems more likely they were some kind of rotting root vegetable (potato, turnip, etc.)

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. Bolden above: Is this in response to my question on this? I asked the same thing twice. Apparently, no one else noticed.  The resemblance is astounding.  WHY?

Did P just disguise himself like the instructor out of amusement, boredom, .....?

I did notice the resemblance, and in fact wondered for a brief second what Philip was doing lecturing. Maybe he just gets his disguise ideas from people he sees?

[misstwpherecool]

On 3/30/2017 at 0:03 PM, Umbelina said:

The math teacher is the one who also teaches computers, remember?  Henry wanted to ask Stan some computer questions because his math teacher, though teaching that, didn't know much about them.  Stan suggested Mathew, said Mathew knew more about them than he did.

So, I'd guess that Henry is amazing at computers, which may or may not include math skills.

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

[Cthulhudrew]

17 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

Bueller. Bueller. Bueller.

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Erin9 said:

One little thing I loved is how Elizabeth's face lit up when she came home at the end of the episode and saw Philip. Before she saw him, she was clearly thinking about having to tell him the bad news. But, when he walked in, she was so happy to see him. It was sweet. She really did miss him, as she said earlier. 

 

And Philip was coming out of the laundry room with a basket and when he saw her he literally dropped it on the floor to go over to hug her.

WHY THE HELL DO MY POSTS KEEP DISAPPEARING???

28 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

Ferris Bueller, 1986. The school in WG may not have been hackable that early.

48 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I thought they were coal nuggets at first (like the reviewer), they didn't look like any brown or rye bread I ever ate growing up in Europe. To me, it seems more likely they were some kind of rotting root vegetable (potato, turnip, etc.)

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Philip's father brought home three lumps of moldy black bread.

9 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I don't think Tuan is on secondment from a Vietnamese Spy Agency, I'm certain he works for the USSR. 

The podcast said Vietnamese Intelligence and nothing on the show contradicts it. They haven't said outright so I don't think it can be considered canon either way. But in either case nobody's talked about killing Tuan. He's valuable to them.

10 hours ago, Bretton said:

Skills? This has nothing to do with skills. It's all about emotional connection - or a lack thereof. Elizabeth is more emotionally aware than ever in her life. And, as such, sex is different for her now. Both E and P are less comfortable with the "honey-work" now. Why? Because their shared connection has changed their perspectives.

Also when Elizabeth was with the hotel guy it was her first honey pot in a long time. In the interim her body had gotten used to only having sex with Philip, someone she loved and trusted and was having sex with for her own reasons. So it reacted differently to sex with this guy than it would have in the past.

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I have a question. Whatshisname the handler said "I've been tracking every single to Phillip since Misha disappeared". I thought the Centre let him out of the sanatorium. How did he get out of the manicomio? I thought the Center knew about that. Apparently not since he disappeared.

The Centre got him out of the hospital. He was then working in a factory and disappeared from that job. That's the disappearance Gabriel was referring to, and the one that made him start tracking calls to Philip.

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Also Tuan was tracking a surveillance schedule..  Who was being spyed on?And on a schedule? If it is the Russian family- I thought the CIA brought him here. Why would they be spying on him if he is on their side?

 

 

 

Look what happened to Baklanov--passing secrets to the Israelis and kidnapped by the Soviets. They're watching for his and their protection. And they have good reason, since the KGB has targeted him.

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I really dislike the actor playing the Handler in this role. The great Frank Langella is great in many other things but wrong here. His accent is too thick Bronx.

He's never sounded like he's from the Bronx to me. Isn't he from New Jersey? Ironically, many viewers seem to think he has a British accent.

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I don't know what girl that age would say such a thing to her father. Kind of unbelievable that a 15 year old girl would discuss her boyfriend with her dad and her search for love. I would have been mortified.

 

 

 

Paige wasn't talking about her search for love, she was talking about her ability to connect to anybody in her circumstances and her father is one of the few people who would understand that. In the context of this specific, rather strange father/daughter relationship, this subject has really already been put out there, so I think it made sense.

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I do think that Paige is a malcontent and that no matter what she's not going to be happy.  She was just as miserable before she knew the truth.  She's almost insatiable about anything that she comes across that bothers her.  She can't let well enough alone and is extremely needy.  But, still, if she's truly depressed, it shouldn't be taken lightly.  P & E would be devastated and the Jennings can't afford an intense investigation that would result if she hurts herself. 

Yeah, the thing is, looking back Paige's character has actually evolved a lot. She's gone through a lot of teen phases--insecure, directionless girl, holier-than-thou youth group activist girl, mature-enough-to know your dirty secrets girl. She focused on her life being a lie, then her parents being liars, then the situation they put her in. She had to deal with the fallout of Pastor Tim for real, then wanting to do her own spying, now the PTSD from the mugging.

But there's a lot of superficial similarity and the actress isn't exactly finding the variations to play. It's very repetitive. She demands things and only focuses on what she wants, then thinks her inability to deal with it is a problem her parents should address. Even when it's not something she demanded, like with the mugging. This show does often make me side with some of the hardline characters, and with Paige it's like, look, this is the reality of your life. Complaining about it won't change it. It's just cause and effect. 

Like Philip is also falling apart, but he's more focused on what he should do in terms of the effect on others. He's not always focused on what things mean for him. He still does what he has to do, finds things to enjoy or joke about. He just wants to do the actual best thing. Like he said to Paige when she asked if he liked where he grew up: "We didn't think like that." That is, you don't think about what you don't have and how that's not fair. Where as Paige has been obsessed with her ideal self since Day 1. Even when she's ostensibly wanting to help it's about her asserting who she wants to be. Maybe that's why she still seems several steps behind in terms of why she must do things. She thinks her parents are giving her mixed messages because she only gets the part of the message that's about her.

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I think so too. I think because she's not as emo as Phillip or Paige, she is often taken as uncaring or emotionless. But she's a person who keeps going. Her discovery has, I believe, shaken her to the core. But she soldiers on. Because that's who she is.

I don't think she's uncaring or emotionless, but I do think she also has less emotion about stuff like this. She's been, I think, genuinely confused by Philip's existential problems. So while it definitely bothers her that they made the mistake, she's not at the point of questioning the mistake, because her faith in the cause still does a lot of the heaving lifting for her when it comes to her morality. 

And Philip, it should be said, appreciates this about her. Last season he said to Gabriel "The Centre made a good match" about this very thing. He doesn't see this as just some roadblock to his happiness with Elizabeth. It's fundamental to who she is, and he loves who she fundamentally is. Just as she loves the part of him that questions all of this. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Quando]

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I remember an old spy movie comedy called The President's Analyst, with James Coburn, I believe.  He played the super secret agent man who was friends with the Russian spy, and throughout the movie both were confused by the presence of a third, non-allied spymaster.  He was from an all powerful agency called TPC.  Near the end of the movie they revealed who TPC was:  The Phone Company.

Heh.  I remember The President's Analyst.  That was one trippy movie, but ahead of its time in a way.  James Coburn didn't play a secret agent - he was a civilian psychiatrist who was brought in to be the personal psychoanalyst for the President of the United States.  And because of his position (someone who heard all of the president's most secret and unguarded inner thoughts) he was constantly being pursued, spied on and almost kidnapped by every spy agency in the world.  The most powerful spy agency of all, and the ultimate villain, is indeed The Phone Company, who taps everyone's phones and hears and knows everything.

[scowl]

3 hours ago, curbcrusher said:

But wait, he's not. He's working to save the world with better crops, and he's not a radical, drug dealing, take down the system kind of guy. He's someone that realistically might have more impact on "saving the world" than Elizabeth and Phillip every will, and he's not one of her kind. 

Elizabeth should believe that Ben will make a good Communist. He should realize that capitalist corporations will not use his work to "save the world". They'll use it to maximize profits by selling a superior product at a higher price.

On 3/30/2017 at 2:09 PM, Cosmosgravitation said:

It'd almost have to if he has gone beyond the basics.  Coding, for example, is very strongly linked with math and requires many of the same skills for high aptitude - logic, problem solving, and critical thinking.  Coding to me has always felt like a combination of mathematics and learning a new language.

I have a degree in Computer Science and have been a software engineer for 27 years. I suck at math. I've never used calculus while coding and I once was laughed at by suggesting we use statistics to determine if our test coverage was good enough to release a product. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by scowl

[misstwpherecool]

On 4/5/2017 at 6:34 AM, shura said:

So one can confess to a murder, try to interfere in matters of national security by blackmailing a government official, and keep going about their life consequence-free? That's cool.

I don't get why the FBI had to bring Alexei to that greenhouse in the middle of nowhere. What was so Soviet in there that required a Soviet agriculture expert?

Also wondering why P and E had to kill the guy in the lab. They left people alive before, like the guy at the sub propeller factory, for example. Were they not wearing disguises?

Yes extortionist and murderer Stan gets to play office politics with his deeds. Did like what Stan's supervisor said about making the Russians work and take lots of time to analyze what the FBI & contacted Russians are all about. Bury your opponent in laborious but required work I say.

I think the Russian wheat guy might simply have been a scientist himself or give him info on the Soviet/government farming. It wouldn't be in the US interest to pull a starvation attack-desperate people have no problem with desperate measures.

And yes the murder victim in the lab. What the heck. They had disguises. Right off the bat authorities will know something is wrong with a missing scientist in a classified program. Their primary job is to collect intelligence, not analyze and that should include their first enemy contact being an actual serious threat. Maybe it was written in to show what paranoia does? I'm glad this is really taking a toll on P but still little or no empathy/sympathy at this point.

[Orbert]

I guess I'm just really naive.  I never once thought that Gabriel was going to take Mischa somewhere to kill him.

Mischa asked where his father was, in Russian.  Gabriel said "No Russian, not here", then suggested they go somewhere else.  I just figured he wanted to go someplace private so that they could speak in Russian, because it was obvious that Mischa's English wasn't great..  Gabriel seemed quite sympathetic to Mischa.

[Chaos Theory]

9 minutes ago, Orbert said:

I guess I'm just really naive.  I never once thought that Gabriel was going to take Mischa somewhere to kill him.

Mischa asked where his father was, in Russian.  Gabriel said "No Russian, not here", then suggested they go somewhere else.  I just figured he wanted to go someplace private so that they could speak in Russian, because it was obvious that Mischa's English wasn't great..  Gabriel seemed quite sympathetic to Mischa.

I don't think Gabriel is going to kill Misha either.  Story wise it doesn't make sense. It's more likely he'll be brought to a safe house so they can "talk".  It's likely there that things will go wrong and either Elizabeth will walk in on them adding another player or Misha will end up running out back on the street this time not trusting anyone.

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Orbert said:

Mischa asked where his father was, in Russian.  Gabriel said "No Russian, not here", then suggested they go somewhere else.  I just figured he wanted to go someplace private so that they could speak in Russian, because it was obvious that Mischa's English wasn't great..  Gabriel seemed quite sympathetic to Mischa.

I think he was sympathetic and not planning to hurt him--but Mischa had every reason to think Gabriel was going to kill him. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Ina123]

I think Claudia could kill him without batting an eye, but I think he's safe with Gabriel for the time being.

[TexasGal]

2 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

Didn't Ferris change his attendance record, not his grades?  <nerd out over>

I couldn't believe Tuan just left those McD's fries sitting there when Elizabeth arrived.  Dude, they aren't going to be good later.

[ahpny]

Quote

I loved her "You're really an idealist, aren't you?" and it was this close to mocking, but then she realizes he's serious about eradicating poverty, and you see her kind of horrified that the Centre had gotten things so wrong, and maybe—just maybe—the hunger problems in the USSR are of its own making. Such a great scene, and super acting from KR.

What sold that scene for me was her subtle change in facial expression (shun that Botox!) that showed just enough disappointment and concern to signal “oopsy, guess no wheat poisoning after all,” without tipping off the mark that something was wrong or amiss.

One point that seemed to be lost, however, was why this was wholly bad news? Certainly it makes the "accidental" murder more problematic, but shouldn't they be a bit releaved that now they know millions of Russians are not going to starve?

Henry's suddenly-discovered math/computer skills can go in many directions. While facility with higher math and programming is, and was in the 80's, quite sought after by intelligence agencies, those talents don't really help to do the hands-on type of spying that Philip and Elizabeth do. This is really about cryptography. Cryptographers, then and now, that work for intelligence agencies tend not to be the field officers, but people back in the home office. It is easy to imagine a long range plan to get Henry into the NSA and have him funnel selected information back the "Centre."  Nevertheless, neither this show nor the actual USSR will last long enough for that to happen, but discussions and planning about it can certainly provide amble plot arcs.

Floppy disks  (5.25' mylar discs inside a flexible ("floppy") rectangular folder) were indeed the medium of choice at this time. Actually they were almost the only medium available to transfer data to and from personal computers. Modems existed at this time, but they were rare, crude and required physically placing a telephone receiver into cradle with a sleeve. A few years later floppy discs were largely displaced by 3.5" disks that held more data, were smaller, and rigid (less prone to being damaged than the older "floppy" kind). Thus, as I recall,l the reign of floppy discs probably lasted maybe about 5 years or so, but coincided with the time period of this episode.

[Umbelina]

People who tried to escape the Soviet Union were routinely shot, specifically at the Berlin Wall, their bodies left out to rot as an example to others.  It was a crime to escape, it was a crime to speak against the government, as Misha did when protesting the war.  Why in the world would you think KGB agents, the most strident and loyal citizens of the Soviet Union wouldn't kill him?  More importantly, why would Misha?

Misha had every reason to assume Gabe would kill him, and indeed, Gabe probably would if ordered to do that.  Maybe that's why Gabe told the story of killing his friends when ordered to earlier in the series?  Claudia would do it in a heartbeat.  Center would probably order it so Misha doesn't mess up the already suspect "shaky" Philip. 

Misha is a problem in a highly valuable operation, no question that they would kill him.  Honestly, why capture him to send him "home" as Gabe said, where he'd either be locked up for life or simply shot?  Getting rid of him in the USA without all the fuss of getting him out would be much more practical.

I do like the idea that Gabe may have broken, or been considered "too soft" or "shaky"  earlier in the series, and that's why Claudia replaced him.  That may be why Claudia is hanging around now really, Center wants Gabe assessed as much as they want Philip assessed.  Are either of them wavering too much?  Are they too soft?  Are they a danger to the USSR?

Claudia may end up putting bullets in both Gabe and Misha.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Umbelina
series not season

[Moose135]

13 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Floppy disks  (5.25' mylar discs inside a flexible ("floppy") rectangular folder) were indeed the medium of choice at this time.

I still have some of those floating around.  I don't have anything I could read them on these days, though.

13 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Actually they were almost the only medium available to transfer data to and from personal computers.

The old Sneaker Net.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Misha is a problem in a highly valuable operation, no question that they would kill him.  Honestly, why capture him to send him "home" as Gabe said, where he'd either be locked up for life or simply shot?  Getting rid of him in the USA without all the fuss of getting him out would be much more practical.

 

To keep him around to manipulate Philip? Of course they could easily lie and say he's alive when he isn't--up until the finale of last season we didn't even know for sure if he existed at all (though that seemed cleared up when Gabriel talked about him) but I would think that a live Mischa might be seen as a valuable thing they wouldn't want to kill without really thinking it through.

Gabriel's pov is pretty unusual here, obviously. I think we should actually look at all these scenes with the question of him being wobbly himself. He apparently suggested P&E go home without asking the Centre, which is a total Philip move, one that Gabriel scolded him for when he was sending Elizabeth to Berlin. He does seem genuinely emotional about Mischa. He isn't bothered by Mischa's speaking out against the war personally. He thought Philip should have the choice of meeting him, just as Philip thought Elizabeth ought to get a chance to see her mother. He really did seem to only pull back when Claudia pointed out that this kid could very easily tip Philip over. If Mischa had come to the US as a loyal soldier whose only "unstable" action was wanting to meet his heroic Directorate-S dad, I think Gabriel would have thought it was a good idea all around.

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

Bueller. Bueller. Bueller.

 

War Games. He changed Ally Sheedy's grade and she got upset and he changed it back. 

[scowl]

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Didn't Ferris change his attendance record, not his grades?  <nerd out over>

Ferris changed his attendance record and David (WarGames) changed his grades. Matthew Broderick was typecasted back then.

33 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Floppy disks  (5.25' mylar discs inside a flexible ("floppy") rectangular folder) were indeed the medium of choice at this time. Actually they were almost the only medium available to transfer data to and from personal computers. Modems existed at this time, but they were rare, crude and required physically placing a telephone receiver into cradle with a sleeve. A few years later floppy discs were largely displaced by 3.5" disks that held more data, were smaller, and rigid (less prone to being damaged than the older "floppy" kind). Thus, as I recall,l the reign of floppy discs probably lasted maybe about 5 years or so, but coincided with the time period of this episode.

They weren't mylar since aluminum isn't magnetic. They were thin plastic coated in ferric oxide just like audio tape. The floppy disc era lasted about twenty years going back to the late 60's with huge eight inch floppies. The 3.5 inch discs were still called floppies because the medium inside was still a thin flexible piece of plastic that floated over the head.

In fact I was still using them just a few years ago to configure new computer systems. You can write a lot more stuff (handwriting) on a 3.5 inch label than you can on a physically tiny USB drive.

[misstwpherecool]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I think Claudia could kill him without batting an eye, but I think he's safe with Gabriel for the time being.

I think Gabriel and Oleg just want to do a good job on specific missions. They're loyal soldiers/employee of the month material. Claudia is a sociopathic zealot. That's why Elizabeth would make  a good Claudia replacement/agent handler.

[Kathemy]

The 3.5 floppies didn't hold significantly more data than the 5.25 ones. (1.44 versus 1.2, though old 5.25 were often only 360kb if I'm not mistaken.)

[Ellaria]

Quick question:

We see that Phillip and another woman are tailing Renee. Presumably, Phillip initiated this surveillance without knowledge/approval from Gabriel or any of the "higher ups." Wouldn't just be easier to ask Gabriel if she is KGB?

[dubbel zout]

Gabriel might not tell Philip the truth. And it's possible Gabriel might not know.

[ahpny]

Quote

They weren't mylar since aluminum isn't magnetic. They were thin plastic coated in ferric oxide just like audio tape. The floppy disc era lasted about twenty years going back to the late 60's with huge eight inch floppies. The 3.5 inch discs were still called floppies because the medium inside was still a thin flexible piece of plastic that floated over the head.

Much of my memory about floppies wasn't quite right, see http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Floppy-Disk.html for specs and timing information. They were around for longer than I remembered, and the 3.5" versions were indeed also called "floppies" too.

[Umbelina]

36 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

I think Gabriel and Oleg just want to do a good job on specific missions. They're loyal soldiers/employee of the month material. Claudia is a sociopathic zealot. That's why Elizabeth would make  a good Claudia replacement/agent handler.

But Claudia is right.  Philip meeting Misha would probably blow up this extremely valuable embedded spy operation, at a time when the USSR is falling apart with huge problems.  Killing Misha and not telling Philip IS the logical move here.  Yes, it's cold, but I wouldn't call it insane, at all.  We are in the world of spies, or soldiers for their country, not kindergarten teachers at band camp.

Philip and Gabe are both not acting like soldiers anymore, they are too mushy, and it makes sense their loyalty is being questioned.

 

24 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Quick question:

We see that Phillip and another woman are tailing Renee. Presumably, Phillip initiated this surveillance without knowledge/approval from Gabriel or any of the "higher ups." Wouldn't just be easier to ask Gabriel if she is KGB?

Because if she is KGB, they were NOT told, specifically not told.  Maybe that's another reason Claudia is there, she's running Renee?  I think she's mostly there to assess Gabe and Philip's loyalty and reliability though.  I'm taking the rest of that speculation to the Gabe thread...I worry for his, ahem, health...he may not be long for this assignment...

Edited April 6, 2017 by Umbelina

[dubbel zout]

I'm waiting for them to pass information on SyQuest disks. Hee.

[Ellaria]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because if she is KGB, they were NOT told, specifically not told.  Maybe that's another reason Claudia is there, she's running Renee?  I think she's mostly there to assess Gabe and Philip's loyalty and reliability though.

As you say, I think that Claudia is around to assess Phillip and how Gabriel handles him.

I don't think that Renee is KGB. It will be interesting what Phillip learns thru his surveillance and what he does with that information.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On April 4, 2017 at 11:29 PM, AimingforYoko said:

It's The Dating Game! (Moscow Edition) with your host Ivan Burov!

(sorry, having trouble with figuring out how to make this quote separate from my response) ... As soon as they introduced gorgeous brunette, adorably sexy blonde and slightly buck-toothed mousy brown, I started la-la-la-ing "Spanish Flea" to my husband.

[misstwpherecool]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

But Claudia is right.  Philip meeting Misha would probably blow up this extremely valuable embedded spy operation, at a time when the USSR is falling apart with huge problems.  Killing Misha and not telling Philip IS the logical move here.  Yes, it's cold, but I wouldn't call it insane, at all.  We are in the world of spies, or soldiers for their country, not kindergarten teachers at band camp.

Philip and Gabe are both not acting like soldiers anymore, they are too mushy, and it makes sense their loyalty is being questioned.

 

Because if she is KGB, they were NOT told, specifically not told.  Maybe that's another reason Claudia is there, she's running Renee?  I think she's mostly there to assess Gabe and Philip's loyalty and reliability though.

I think Gabe realizes Mischa will become an issue but not eliminating him right away doesn't necessarily make him a bad soldier. Murder is just a tool to them. Gabe doesn't know what tool to use yet. He knows if Philip ever finds out about his son he knows he could lose Philip. Can he use information from Mischa. He did bring help so it's still 'official' business at this point.

How did Mischa get the switch board again?-How much do they know about the network that got Mischa to the US? 

Philip has been a disgruntled employee for a while which is why I surprised to see him so quick to kill the lab guy. But that last killing accompanied by the fact that it wasn't a plot to starve Russia affects the Center's credibility. It's just a matter of time now before he does something very disloyal like warn Stan.

Claudia is the career company girl. Same for Elizabeth. I think Gaberiel and Philip are using patriotism as a motivator for doing a good job. Cl & El are very calculating because the end game/goal has priority in their lives.