S05.E05: Lotus 1-2-3

[attica]

13 hours ago, vb68 said:

I'm confused now on Claudia's status. Is she Gabriel's handler just there to be his sounding board?

Oh, they're banging, for sure.  (I don't actually have any basis for this. It amuses me to think so, though.)

[picklesprite]

I hope I'm not repeating anybody here. I *think* I've read everything.

What scared me about the meeting that didn't come off for Oleg was my worry that he was set up by the KGB to see if he'd actually go. Like, it was a test of his loyalty, and they faked an American contact in order to trap him. Like many of you, I so want a happy ending for him. I like a previous poster's idea that Stan's blackmail worked to protect Oleg, and I think that must be true, because the KGB (probably) wouldn't have known about Stan and Oleg.

There's a parallel between Phillip's worry about Stan and Stan's worry about Oleg. Neither of them wants to have been the vehicle for hurting a man they like. Or, there's also the possibility that Phillip doesn't want to be left in the dark about Russian undercover work going on right across the street from him. It really will be interesting if it turns out she's FBI, instead! (As a poster suggested.)

I'm a sucker for the moments that seem like genuine warmth between E and P, so I really liked this ep. Elizabeth, tell me you actually do love him. A little?

I didn't think I cared if they painted the U.S. as a bad guy a lot of the time, because a.) drama; and b.) we are not angels, but I found myself feeling glad about the search for wheat to feed the world. Take that, Elizabeth.

Oh, the Russian shite is so going to hit the American fan over Misha.

[SunnyBeBe]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I've criticized the writers in this show for having too much homicide woven into the plot, but I do appreciate the fact that they have had the courage to write the character portrayed by Keri Russell as being so ruthlessly ideologically driven, and thus so easily capable of rationalizing away hideous behavior. The show, in my view, would have been ruined without this element, to contrast against E's spouse, and it would not have been nearly as effective, dramatically, if the writers had reversed the qualities of of the couple.

I agree.  I mean, a soft hearted asset who hesitates to kill people, just because she might be killing an innocent person....?  I don't think so.  I suspect that what Elizabeth was taught and what she primarily uses is a survival philosophy and that's to not get caught and though times she may have killed people who raised red flags, if she hadn't have done it, it would likely have caused more trouble.  NOT AT ALL JUSTIFYING it.  The man working under the car....OH MY.  That was brutal.  Not sure how she got past that one.  And then her alcoholic friend.  She killed her too right?  But, the friend was threatening to turn herself in.  Very risky move.  She just didn't realize how risky.  Maybe, she is a sociopath, but, I doubt it.  I think that if Elizabeth had been raised in her own home and never trained by the KGB, she wouldn't have likely ever killed anyone.  And even now, if she left working in her field, I doubt that she'd ever kill anyone else, unless they attacked her or her family and it was in self-defense. 

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  At least throw her a BONE of hope.  So what if it's bogus.  And, get her some teen magazines. They have all kind of issues of how young girls can relate.  And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[picklesprite]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

Oh, eek, you just made me feel very anxious about Paige. She is so hideously trapped and way too young to figure a way out that doesn't literally imprison or even kill her parents. Run!

Edited April 5, 2017 by picklesprite

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  

I think because that would sound shallow given what she was really asking. But remind me--didn't the scene basically end with that line of Paige's? Then there was a long pause and the scene faded out? My point is, I don't think we're supposed to assume Philip didn't say anything. Ending the scene with that line made the point that there was nothing Philip could say that was really comforting and he knew it. So he didn't answer right away with a Dad speech about how she'll find someone or she's not screwed up, but we shouldn't assume that he just looked at her in silent agreement either. The important part was her asking the question, not Philip answering--it's like the scene where Henry is crying over getting caught breaking into the neighbor's house. There was more to that scene, but the important part was Henry voicing Philip's own fears.

Like I think I said above, it was a contrast to the scenes with Pastor Tim and Elizabeth last week--two people who believe in something they see as the answer to everything, God and the Cause. They would both be more likely to say something comforting, but Philip tends to take these unknowns more seriously.  Almost every time Elizabeth has answered Paige's insecurities this way it's never helpful--at least once it sent her to blab to Pastor Tim.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree.  I mean, a soft hearted asset who hesitates to kill people, just because she might be killing an innocent person....?  I don't think so.  I suspect that what Elizabeth was taught and what she primarily uses is a survival philosophy and that's to not get caught and though times she may have killed people who raised red flags, if she hadn't have done it, it would likely have caused more trouble.  NOT AT ALL JUSTIFYING it.  The man working under the car....OH MY.  That was brutal.  Not sure how she got past that one.  And then her alcoholic friend.  She killed her too right?  But, the friend was threatening to turn herself in.  Very risky move.  She just didn't realize how risky.  Maybe, she is a sociopath, but, I doubt it.  I think that if Elizabeth had been raised in her own home and never trained by the KGB, she wouldn't have likely ever killed anyone.  And even now, if she left working in her field, I doubt that she'd ever kill anyone else, unless they attacked her or her family and it was in self-defense. 

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  At least throw her a BONE of hope.  So what if it's bogus.  And, get her some teen magazines. They have all kind of issues of how young girls can relate.  And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

E is most definitely NOT a sociopath; it's just that what is most likely to trigger her conscience revolves around fealty to the Soviet State/Communist Ideology, and as long as that allegiance is served, anything can be rationalized.  She's not much different from those, for instance, who tortured in service to the Spanish Inquisition.  

[Ellaria]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  At least throw her a BONE of hope.  So what if it's bogus.  And, get her some teen magazines. They have all kind of issues of how young girls can relate.  And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

Exactly! I was expecting that Phil would put his arm around her or try to make her laugh...anything to lighten the mood. Paige annoys me to no end but, at the same time, I feel for her. We never see her with friends. Does she go to the movies or the mall? Does she participate in after-school activities that are fun? She needs to be involved in something other than Pastor Tim and his church (she clearly isn't enjoying it as she once did). She is so serious...and yes, I understand why. She needs to forget about reading Marx and read a few Stephen King novels.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree.  I mean, a soft hearted asset who hesitates to kill people, just because she might be killing an innocent person....?  I don't think so.  I suspect that what Elizabeth was taught and what she primarily uses is a survival philosophy and that's to not get caught and though times she may have killed people who raised red flags, if she hadn't have done it, it would likely have caused more trouble.  NOT AT ALL JUSTIFYING it.  The man working under the car....OH MY.  That was brutal.  Not sure how she got past that one.  And then her alcoholic friend.  She killed her too right?  But, the friend was threatening to turn herself in.  Very risky move.  She just didn't realize how risky.  Maybe, she is a sociopath, but, I doubt it.  I think that if Elizabeth had been raised in her own home and never trained by the KGB, she wouldn't have likely ever killed anyone.  And even now, if she left working in her field, I doubt that she'd ever kill anyone else, unless they attacked her or her family and it was in self-defense. 

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  At least throw her a BONE of hope.  So what if it's bogus.  And, get her some teen magazines. They have all kind of issues of how young girls can relate.  And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

Also, P can't easily lie to Paige. He knows for a fact that living your entire life as a gigantic Iie very likely entails a gigantic serving of isolation which consumes your life. He sees the abyss that he and E have place their daughter on the edge of,  and he is is in despair. It is tremendously sad.

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Exactly! I was expecting that Phil would put his arm around her or try to make her laugh...anything to lighten the mood. Paige annoys me to no end but, at the same time, I feel for her. We never see her with friends. Does she go to the movies or the mall? Does she participate in after-school activities that are fun? She needs to be involved in something other than Pastor Tim and his church (she clearly isn't enjoying it as she once did). She is so serious...and yes, I understand why. She needs to forget about reading Marx and read a few Stephen King novels.

She is isolated, and the life her parents have forced her into guarantees a life of isolation. P, unlike his wife, fully grasps the horror of this, because unlike his wife, he doesn't have the Communist religion (and make no mistake regarding the ironic religious aspect of Marxism/Communism) to fill the gigantic void that such isolation creates.

This is the best part of the writing of this show, in my view.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Bannon
spelling

[Bannon]

It makes me very sad, but it is a credit to the most honest aspect of this show's writing that one or more suicides is a credible ending to this show.

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

We've already seen that Philip killed a young classmate as a boy himself.  Good lord, how much more traumatic does it get than that?

I don't know, but that seemed like a normal memory. It was a horrible event, but it was a memory he could control. He could tell it as a story. What we're seeing with the small house where the scene with the pants and the bread took place doesn't seem like it's something he's controling. It seems intrusive, and he's getting fragments. What we've been seeing feels different. 

5 hours ago, shura said:

I don't get why the FBI had to bring Alexei to that greenhouse in the middle of nowhere. What was so Soviet in there that required a Soviet agriculture expert?

I'm guessing they needed someone who knew about soil and information that someone who worked in Soviet agriculture would know (what kinds of pesticide are they using) but difficult for someone to find out. Do really want to send a spy in Russia to find out about soil, or do you pick the brain of a defector? 

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Yes, floppy discs were the storage medium of choice in the mid 1980s!

I also was admiring the vintage McDonald packaging-- made me wonder if they found that and built the scene around it.  

I know on Mad Men if the script called for something the production design/props team either found it or made it. It was based on the needs of the script. It's possible someone found it and put it aside thinking they would use it someday, but I doubt they built a scene around props. 

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I think that Tuan will be a problem, regardless. Once the operation with Pasha and his family comes to an end, the existence of Tuan and Ma and Pa Eckert is unnecessary. The "family" can move, claiming to be transferred to another city. 

That would make sense to me. People moving during the school year is unusual, but it's not unheard of. 

43 minutes ago, picklesprite said:

There's a parallel between Phillip's worry about Stan and Stan's worry about Oleg. Neither of them wants to have been the vehicle for hurting a man they like.

I think this is true. There is deep respect and on some level affection. 

36 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

I love this idea. Getting to see part of a session has the potential to be amazing. 

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I know on Mad Men if the script called for something the production design/props team either found it or made it. It was based on the needs of the script. It's possible someone found it and put it aside thinking they would use it someday, but I doubt they built a scene around props. 

Quoting the prop master on this prop:

"One of my graphics printers/manufacturers collect vintage packaging, which he then rents out to "period" productions, such as ours.

The Big Mac styro clamshells (we had three) were totally real and in pristine condition. My graphics guys had the fries container in his files and printed the correct Arches logo on the sides of cups.

He also does a great job with our cereal boxes and, for a future episode,

Spoiler

carryout bags from Bob's Big Boy.

Btw, the cover of the box of Pastor Tim's condoms last week were I believe CGI'd.

Quote

 

  58 MINUTES AGO, SUNNYBEBE SAID:

Quote

And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

I love this idea. Getting to see part of a session has the potential to be amazing. 

 

I don't know. I can't imagine Philip wanting to send her to a psychiatrist that's reporting to the Centre, and it seems like anything we'd see would be more of the same, only without her parents.

Edited April 5, 2017 by sistermagpie

[shura]

17 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm guessing they needed someone who knew about soil and information that someone who worked in Soviet agriculture would know (what kinds of pesticide are they using) but difficult for someone to find out. Do really want to send a spy in Russia to find out about soil, or do you pick the brain of a defector? 

Oh, they got spies over there. It wouldn't be too hard to go and dig up some actual soil for analysis rather than rely on someone's word. 

But wait, how is the FBI even connected to that project if this is just a private company growing pest-resistant wheat for sale? Were they simply accompanying Alexei who was consulting for the company? It looked a bit like an overkill then to send three guys like those.

[scartact]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

I do think Elizabeth felt bad about their mistake, but in a different way than Phillip. For him, the pain is more existential-he doesn't want to hurt people anymore, he no longer has strong faith in their righteousness, and it's chipping away at his soul. Elizabeth, on the other hand, still has her cause and truly believes that what they're doing is for the greater good, and can view occasional mistakes as unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage. So she feels bad they killed an innocent man, but most of her concern was for Phillip and how she knew the knowledge would hit him. At this point, I think she understands that she's able to compartmentalize and cope with the nastier parts of their work much better than him, and it was a very generous thing for her to offer to take on his burden. Of course she wants to comfort him-I think the show has gone through great pains to show us her evolution in falling in love with him for real and trying to understand him better.

I agree, and Elizabeth has always kept her emotions very, very guarded. In one of the previous episodes where Elizabeth talks to Paige about relationships, she says you hold back what you need to, and so it doesn't surprise me that when Philip is very deeply feeling his crisis of conscience, she is carefully not to show cracks in her resolve so that she can stabilize both of them to what they are and have been doing. Even Elizabeth offering to take on more of the burden of work recalls to mind how often Elizabeth is rooted in showing love through sacrifice, and so her offer to ease his burden is really another way she shows him care.

Another thing is also that it feels like this season has been very careful not to reveal very much of Elizabeth's inner emotional life like last season. Speaking of last season...

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think this season is actually very good.  I think some of the problems is that last season had some of the best episodes the show has ever done.  The Martha gets exfiltrated episodes were some of the most thrilling episodes the show has ever done.  Plus I don't think the series is the same since Martha and to a lesser extent Gaad has left

Yeah, definitely compared to last season, this show is slowing down once again to built up newer arcs out of what ended last year, and a hell of a lot really did end last year! I still think this season is very good, but very few things feel like it will compare to the middle of season four to me and the streak of phenomenal episodes they had because they really were delivering on so many things they had been developing previously for three seasons. This is why I do not mind as much the pacing of this season, though maybe I do still want tighter focus on less plots per episode.

1 hour ago, attica said:

Oh, they're banging, for sure.  (I don't actually have any basis for this. It amuses me to think so, though.)

Haha, Margo Martindale has an interview with Vulture where she also makes this speculation that maybe they have had relations! But I think she said that's more of an amusing joke between her and Frank Langella.

1 hour ago, picklesprite said:

There's a parallel between Phillip's worry about Stan and Stan's worry about Oleg. Neither of them wants to have been the vehicle for hurting a man they like. Or, there's also the possibility that Phillip doesn't want to be left in the dark about Russian undercover work going on right across the street from him. It really will be interesting if it turns out she's FBI, instead! (As a poster suggested.)

I didn't think about this parallel! That's super interesting and I almost forgot some other parallels between Stan with the Jennings/Philip and Stan's prior undercover work

[tennisgurl]

Wow, Philip would rather have flashbacks to his depressing childhood in Siberia then sleep with that scientist chick! Alright, that's not really what happened, I don't think. I think he was having a flashback without wanting to, and all this is leading to understanding something about Philips past, which has always been more mysterious then Elizabeth's. Its probably going to tie in with Philips issues now, and his increasing guilt over what he does, especially now that he killed an innocent guy over bad information. I know I've been saying this for ages, but I think Philip really is about five minutes from telling the KGB to kindly fuck off. Granted, I don't think he will leave without Elizabeth and the kids, so who knows what will end up happening. Matthew just has such an expressive face. His face just looks so haunted, it makes me feel for him, no matter how many awful things he does.

I thought I would be annoyed by Mischa, but the actor has really won me over. He just broke my heart meeting with Gabriel. His broken English just made things worse. This is an emotional enough situation without being unable to use a language your comfortable with. I want him to get to meet up with Philip, and it all turns out alright damn it.

Speaking of people I want to get a happy ending, does this mean Oleg is out of the CIAs cross hairs? It looks like it now, but I'm not sure. I feel like he isn't out of the woods yet, but I kind of hope he is. As beautiful as he looks when he looks miserable, he also looks beautiful when he's happy, on those rare occasions. Can you tell I'm kind of in love with the guy at this point? I loved the super awkward match making his dad was engaging in. Oleg's expression as soon as he opened the door and saw the three women was just like "Oh my God Dad, are you kidding me?!?!" while also trying to be polite. I cant believe his parents invited THREE women all to sit their waiting for him. I think Oleg has enough on his plate, he doesn't need his dad playing match maker. I sort of wondered about Oleg's parentage when his mom was talking about the labor camp. Maybe his dad isn't his bio dad? But, what would that add to the story? Unless his dad is someone we know (which seems a little soap opera for this show) it would just add more drama to a story that already has plenty of drama.

So, now we know the US is actually trying to make better crops, instead of killing them, and that The Center was 100% wrong. What now? Where does the season go? I assume P & E will tell them what they found out, and then why would they both still dealing with the defector family and the Kansas people? Where is this season going?

Also, the show admits it (and P & E) have totally ignored poor Henry, whos actually a math genius. I loved Philip being all proud (I'm good at math!) and them actually realizing that they had been ignoring Henry. I hope this means he gets worked into the story more. He doesn't need to know the Big Secret, but I would like to see them putting in more of an effort with him.

Edited April 5, 2017 by tennisgurl

[whiporee]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

t's not new. There's plenty of times Elizabeth has comforted Philip without sex, and if there is sex involved that doesn't make it a honeytraps. Honeytraps are about deception. Calling it that makes it sound like Elizabeth just sees this guy as a lump to manipulate instead of a partner and husband she honestly wants to be there for. She depends on him and needs to be honest with him.

It is new. When Phillip starts to waver in his commitment, Elizabeth fucks him. Not when he's feeling blue or sad or whatever, but those times he starts to sincerely question what they do. There may have been times it hasn't been shown on TV that she's held his hand and tried to make nice, but a) Phillip is clearly distressed about Martha. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. b) Phillip is wondering why they can't grow their own wheat in the USSR. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. We've seen them have sex before, but the only times we're shown E taking charge like that is when P is losing faith. That's got to be a writer/showrunner's choice. It's not the totality of their relationship, but it is the pattern she's shown whenever he starts to lose faith in the cause. I would not be at all surprised to know that was one of the things she was told and taught very clearly at spy school. 

Last night's phone call was the first time I can remember that E's reached to Phillip as a real spouse. I don't think there's tons of evidence she's seen him as anything other than her spy partner for most of the show's duration (hell, didn't she narc on him once?), but I do think that's changing now. But I also think she went to their house with Luan with the intent of doing more of the same, but she either changed her mind or decided it wouldn't work. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Is it just me or does Philip really do look different at different times?  I mean, WITHOUT a disguise he looks different.  Last night, when he was lying in bed AFTER the sex scene his face looked quite different to me.  He actually appeared to be 10 years younger than normal!  

Also, to me, the disguise that Philip wore when trailing Stan's girlfriend had an uncanny resemblance to the EST instructor shown at the end.  Is that coincidental?

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, the show admits it (and P & E) have totally ignored poor Henry, whos actually a math genius. I loved Philip being all proud (I'm good at math!) and them actually realizing that they had been ignoring Henry.

Did they realize it? I'm not sure they did. The teacher said Henry had just recently gotten serious about it, so it's not like they just found out anything that had been going on for years. Other than that they seem to think he's kind of ignoring them with his busy social life.

7 minutes ago, whiporee said:

It is new. When Phillip starts to waver in his commitment, Elizabeth fucks him. Not when he's feeling blue or sad or whatever, but those times he starts to sincerely question what they do. There may have been times it hasn't been shown on TV that she's held his hand and tried to make nice, but a) Phillip is clearly distressed about Martha. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. b) Phillip is wondering why they can't grow their own wheat in the USSR. E aggressively seduces and fucks him.

Yes, that's two times when Elizabeth sees Philip being upset and they have sex. I would add a third time in Yousef. But the only one of those three that's even specifically Philip questioning some aspect of the cause and Elizabeth distracting him with sex is in Kansas.

In Yousef he's just generally bummed out by the killing (and she herself has just angrily told him that this is hard for her too) and she says right before that that she wishes she could be there for him like he was for her when she was injured. With Martha she seems to be more jealous about Martha than she is worried about Philip's loyalty to the cause. 

There are also other times where she takes his hand to provide comfort--off the top of my head she does it in Comrades and in The Clock and in Gregory. So no, I think it's inaccurate to say that it's some new thing for Elizabeth to  be able to want to comfort Philip's distress like a friend or a wife or that any time she provides comfort through sex it's like she's honeytrapping to make him loyal to the USSR. The Mission is always part of their relationship, but her feelings around him go far beyond that, imo. Yes, Philip is often upset because of the things he has to do for the job, but it's circular to say that therefore Elizabeth only comforts Philip to make him loyal to the job. 

14 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Last night's phone call was the first time I can remember that E's reached to Phillip as a real spouse. I don't think there's tons of evidence she's seen him as anything other than her spy partner for most of the show's duration (hell, didn't she narc on him once?), but I do think that's changing now. But I also think she went to their house with Luan with the intent of doing more of the same, but she either changed her mind or decided it wouldn't work. 

Elizabeth made almost the same phone call in Duty and Honor. She narc'd on Philip before the start of the show, not during the show. Off the top of my head other times when I would say Elizabeth has been shown explicitly dealing with Philip as a spouse and not just a partner she needs to keep loyal to the cause:

When she tries to get him to invite himself back home during their separation

When she asks him to come home after their separation

The phone call to him in Duty and Honor

Her telling him she's starting to fall in love with him in Gregory

Her breaking up with Gregory because she's falling in love with Philip now

Her throwing Philip out of the house for hurting her by sleeping with Irina and lying about it

Her telling Karen how she feels guilty about him being so upset because she'd wished for a chance to care for him the way he'd cared for her

Her being jealous and insecure on the subject of Martha

Her asking him if he would rather be with Martha

Her apologizing to him for taking steps to tell Paige the truth on her own

Her telling the sailor that she'd stopped feeling things after her rape and is now starting to feel again

Her asking Gabriel to get Mischa Jr. out of Afghanistan

When the two of them just have sex because Elizabeth's into it, like in the hotel room or their bedroom

When Elizabeth desperately tries to get Philip to have sex with her as Clark 

Elizabeth bursting into tears upon being turned on by sex on the job and giving Philip a blow job he himself isn't even that into in response to it

 

It seems to me the whole first season was explicitly about Elizabeth coming around the truth that she loved Philip and wanted to have a real relationship with him. She has seen him as more than simply her spy partner for the entire run of the show. *Before* the events of the show she saw him as a spy partner, and the biggest signal of her changing views was in the pilot, which was the first time she crawled on top of him and initiated sex in a moment. Before that, when she saw him as a partner, they may not have had sex much at all. (First time was to have a baby.) Elizabeth is actually usually the one in control of their sex scenes because, imo, she has issues with consent. That's why the moment she took that step with Philip came after he killed the man who thought he was entitled to her sexually because it was part of her job.

In this ep she obviously goes to him to comfort him, but it seems like stretching it to say that she's specifically there to fuck him back to loyalty and then deciding otherwise for unknown reasons. Philip goes over to Tuan's because he told him he'd go over there--he's doing his job, not denouncing anything. She knows he's going to be with Tuan, not alone as he would be later when he got home. It just seems almost comical that she walks into that kitchen where Philip is munching on McDonalds with Tuan and only then thinks it would be awkward to start stripping.

[stagmania]

41 minutes ago, whiporee said:

It is new. When Phillip starts to waver in his commitment, Elizabeth fucks him. Not when he's feeling blue or sad or whatever, but those times he starts to sincerely question what they do. There may have been times it hasn't been shown on TV that she's held his hand and tried to make nice, but a) Phillip is clearly distressed about Martha. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. b) Phillip is wondering why they can't grow their own wheat in the USSR. E aggressively seduces and fucks him. We've seen them have sex before, but the only times we're shown E taking charge like that is when P is losing faith. That's got to be a writer/showrunner's choice. It's not the totality of their relationship, but it is the pattern she's shown whenever he starts to lose faith in the cause. I would not be at all surprised to know that was one of the things she was told and taught very clearly at spy school. 

Last night's phone call was the first time I can remember that E's reached to Phillip as a real spouse. I don't think there's tons of evidence she's seen him as anything other than her spy partner for most of the show's duration (hell, didn't she narc on him once?), but I do think that's changing now. But I also think she went to their house with Luan with the intent of doing more of the same, but she either changed her mind or decided it wouldn't work. 

In order to buy your theory of Elizabeth here, we have to completely disregard the actual text of the show. How can one reasonably interpret her smiling and slow dancing with Phillip as her "aggressively seducing and fucking him"? We don't even know that they had sex in that interaction. As for seeing him as something other than her spy partner, that has literally been the basis of her entire emotional arc from the start of the show, and was more pronounced than ever during the Martha arc that you also referenced as another time she supposedly honey trapped her husband. I'm honestly trying to understand your perspective here, but it doesn't make any sense. 

ETA: thank you @sistermagpie for laying out so many clear examples from the history of the show, which I definitely did not have the energy to do. :)

Edited April 5, 2017 by stagmania

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, shura said:

But wait, how is the FBI even connected to that project if this is just a private company growing pest-resistant wheat for sale? Were they simply accompanying Alexei who was consulting for the company? It looked a bit like an overkill then to send three guys like those.

They were probably there to make sure Alexei didn't get snatched.

You can't honeytrap your own spouse. You can use sex as emotional manipulation, but that's not the same thing as a honeytrap.

[Eulipian 5k]

5 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

God, please tell me that was blackened bread.

I sat there thinking "Dad brought home lumps of coal?" Then when young Phillip took a bite I thought "What did Dad do to get those truffles?" I 'm glad you all knew it was bread!

[benteen]

Did Gabriel say that Claudia was in Afghanistan?

[Trillian]

28 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I sat there thinking "Dad brought home lumps of coal?" Then when young Phillip took a bite I thought "What did Dad do to get those truffles?" I 'm glad you all knew it was bread!

I thought they were burnt potatoes. Unappetizing, whatever they were. 

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, shura said:

Really? She looks phony to me. I feel like she talks to much to show how strong and in control she is. All these "we'll hold you to that" (to the Jennings she's known for what, two weeks?), "I'm teaching him [fly fishing]", "I'll keep him as long as he doesn't diss the Kings"... It looks to me like she is trying to convey an impression. And it doesn't really matter if this impression is of what she genuinely is - I see that she is making an effort (imo), and it makes me wonder. Maybe if she could show and not tell it would be different.

There seems to be something about Stan's gf that is just not like most other women. After knowing Stan for a few weeks (just guessing), she acts as if she's known him for many years. AAMOF, she acts as if the are brother and sister more so than gf and bf. It's always possible that she's just an odd duck (like Debbie on Survivor). But if she is some kind of agent, I would guess she works for the same people who those people who came to see Stan's old boss when he died. I'd be very happy if that little mystery was explained sometime before this show ends.

[JennyMominFL]

Well damn. Clearly I honeytrap my own husband

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Is it just me or does Philip really do look different at different times?  I mean, WITHOUT a disguise he looks different.  Last night, when he was lying in bed AFTER the sex scene his face looked quite different to me.  He actually appeared to be 10 years younger than normal! 

I noticed that as well!  Most of the time, I don't find Philip/Matthew Rhys particularly good-looking, but I thought he looked verrrrry good in that shot.

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

Last night's phone call was the first time I can remember that E's reached to Phillip as a real spouse. I don't think there's tons of evidence she's seen him as anything other than her spy partner for most of the show's duration (hell, didn't she narc on him once?), but I do think that's changing now.

What sistermagpie said.  :-)

[TimWil]

I'm hoping Stan's gf is actually East German Stasi, providing a bridge of sorts at last with Deutschland '83. Sebastian (The Story of Others) Koch as her hubby would be fab, too.

It seems possible that Paige could be headed for a total nervous breakdown but I don't think Holly Taylor would have the range to play it.

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't know, but that seemed like a normal memory. It was a horrible event, but it was a memory he could control. He could tell it as a story. What we're seeing with the small house where the scene with the pants and the bread took place doesn't seem like it's something he's controling. It seems intrusive, and he's getting fragments. What we've been seeing feels different.

Above was written in response to my comment that "We've already seen that Philip killed a young classmate as a boy himself.  Good lord, how much more traumatic does it get than that?"  I see your point about the difference in memory styles, controlled versus intrusive.  I'm just wondering what event could be more horrible than having killed a person. I guess there are such things, such as watching a loved one be tortured.  Ugh, I'm not sure I could deal with that kind of flashback. 

[Helena Dax]

The guy Elizabeth was "dating" was... I don't know, when he started to talk about the Peace Corps and that soup, all I could think about was Hansel from Zoolander.

Sometimes this show surprises me by not killing people. I thought Martha was a goner but she survived. And I thought Misha was going to be stabbed at the park, but he survived too. For now. I don't think we've seen the last of him.

There must be something else going on with Henry. I wonder what triggered his sudden interest in Maths. And Paige... honestly, suicide looks like something she might try right now.  She's starting to understand that she'll never be free again.

[Inquisitionist]

10 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

There must be something else going on with Henry. I wonder what triggered his sudden interest in Maths.

It may have just started to click and get interesting for him when he started algebra.  It's been known to happen!

[dubbel zout]

11 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I wonder what triggered his sudden interest in Maths.

It's sudden to us (and his parents; heh) partly because Henry hasn't been the focus of the show. His teacher said he'd always been a decent student, but algebra was what really clicked. I think that's pretty common in junior high/high school. The classes finally get somewhat advanced, and if you have an aptitude for the subject, it can be really open it up to you.

ETA: Jinx with Inquisitionist!

Edited April 5, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Erin9]

One little thing I loved is how Elizabeth's face lit up when she came home at the end of the episode and saw Philip. Before she saw him, she was clearly thinking about having to tell him the bad news. But, when he walked in, she was so happy to see him. It was sweet. She really did miss him, as she said earlier. 

I hope they don't have Philip or Paige contemplate suicide or have a full breakdown. That's too much imo. They're both struggling, but that would take an already dark show into incredibly depressing territory. 

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, jjj said:

Sorry, but I and many friends (not Asian) always use chopsticks with Chinese food.  And it's not to be insufferable!  That made perfect sense that he would use the correct utensils after living in a country.  

 

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I had to respond to the bolden.  I did not notice that about the forks.  But, I will say that I didn't have the opportunity to eat Chinese food until I was a teen.  None in my small town!  I immediately used them like it was my utensil of choice in a former life!  I have used them for any Asian food since!  lol

I did notice that Elizabeth was cooking homemade dishes for her fake family with Tuan, but, ordering out for her her real one.  lol 

I use them too, haven't in a while though, except with various Asian food.  I got used to them when I had a group of Japanese friends, and ended up preferring them, not just for Japanese or Chinese food, but for just about anything.  It was more about appreciating each bite for me or something.  I used them when at home by myself as well.  In Asian restaurants it honestly never occurred to me that it could be considered pretentious.  Matter of fact?  I should start doing that again when I'm home.  Ha.

35 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I'm hoping Stan's gf is actually East German Stasi, providing a bridge of sorts at last with Deutschland '83. Sebastian (The Story of Others) Koch as her hubby would be fab, too.

It seems possible that Paige could be headed for a total nervous breakdown but I don't think Holly Taylor would have the range to play it.

Paige has been playing nothing but nervous breakdown for a while now.  I'm over it.  She started with that damn church for friends she could talk to, remember?  I mean, OK, I get it, she has a rough life, everything really does suck in her hormone laden teenage life.  I got that the first 348 scenes.  I hope she does kill herself, and soon.  At least the story would move on, and it does make story sense.

25 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

The guy Elizabeth was "dating" was... I don't know, when he started to talk about the Peace Corps and that soup, all I could think about was Hansel from Zoolander.

Sometimes this show surprises me by not killing people. I thought Martha was a goner but she survived. And I thought Misha was going to be stabbed at the park, but he survived too. For now. I don't think we've seen the last of him.

There must be something else going on with Henry. I wonder what triggered his sudden interest in Maths. And Paige... honestly, suicide looks like something she might try right now.  She's starting to understand that she'll never be free again.

I think Claudia would have killed him in a heartbeat.  Also, what the hell Gabriel, you are coddling traitors now?  I mean seriously, he's not a cuddly grandfather, he's captured and KILLED his friends before in his life.  He's fucking KGB, and so is Claudia.  Philip knows nothing about Misha being there, they could (and would IMO) kill him.  Misha was very smart to not go with Gabe.

Let's see if he's really smart and simply walks in, turns himself over to the Americans as a defector in need of asylum , and gets some safety for himself.  People did occasionally escape the Soviet Union back then, and I'm pretty sure they were welcomed for the most part. 

---

Oh please, not cannibalism!  Please tell me that is not the reason the baby is suddenly gone from Philip's memory.

From previews: 

Spoiler

It looks like we may finally get some resolve about Philip's past next week!  Woo, I hope so!  Just not that they ate the baby please.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Umbelina

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I thought they were burnt potatoes. Unappetizing, whatever they were.

I got a Game of Thrones flashback while watching that scene. Someone upthread mentioned possible cannibalism and I had the GoT feeling again. Ugh.

[jjj]

I applaud the way they blocked the living room scene with Henry -- when they were standing, he was sitting, and visa versa.  Because if we had seen him towering over Elizabeth/Phillip, instead of Algebra II, we would have been saying, "why aren't you in Trig yet?"  Avoiding having him stand near them allows the illusion he is a kid and only a few weeks have passed since he was a foot shorter. 

[Ellaria]

30 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

The guy Elizabeth was "dating" was... I don't know, when he started to talk about the Peace Corps and that soup, all I could think about was Hansel from Zoolander.

Perfect description. He is a bit of a cliche: wants to save the world, makes exotic meals, extols the virtues of carob, knows the best hiking trails, makes fireplace smores, etc. I rolled my eyes a few times.

[jjj]

2 hours ago, Trillian said:

I thought they were burnt potatoes. Unappetizing, whatever they were. 

I thought they were *rotted" potatoes. (image of actual Russian rotted potato) 

Edited April 5, 2017 by jjj

[operalover]

I have a question. Whatshisname the handler said "I've been tracking every single to Phillip since Misha disappeared". I thought the Centre let him out of the sanatorium. How did he get out of the manicomio? I thought the Center knew about that. Apparently not since he disappeared.

Also Tuan was tracking a surveillance schedule..  Who was being spyed on?And on a schedule? If it is the Russian family- I thought the CIA brought him here. Why would they be spying on him if he is on their side?

I really dislike the actor playing the Handler in this role. The great Frank Langella is great in many other things but wrong here. His accent is too thick Bronx. It is not believable that he is a Russian who learned to speak English with no accent. He talks like he has marbles in his mouth. have to watch his scenes with the subtitles on. And Margo is all wrong for this part too. I don't understand all the praise for her in this role.  People love her from other things, and I do too, but she really isn't all that great in this part. The 2 of them make me cringe on this show. Bad casting. 

I loved all the houseplants in that guy's kitchen. That was so 80's houseplants everywhere. That guy is very believable.  I knew a lot of guys looked just like him and acted like him in the 80's-still  stuck in the 70's! I'd love to see his album collection. I'm sure he has about 300, all in the plastic sleeves. That was great casting. 

 

I do wonder why when Paige lamented about her pitiful self not being made for love, her dad didn't give some kind of comfort.  Would it have been so hard to have said, "Honey, teenage years are difficult.  You have a lot of time to figure this all out. And mom and I won't be in this forever.  We'll retire, you'll go off to college and then life will be so great."  At least throw her a BONE of hope.  So what if it's bogus.  And, get her some teen magazines. They have all kind of issues of how young girls can relate.  And if all else fails, let The Center find her an APPROVED psychiatrist.  Teen depression shouldn't be ignored. 

I don't know what girl that age would say such a thing to her father. Kind of unbelievable that a 15 year old girl would discuss her boyfriend with her dad and her search for love. I would have been mortified.

Edited April 5, 2017 by operalover

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought the things that Philip and his parents were eating were brown bread, like pumpernickel.  They put them near the fire just to warm them a bit. I wouldn't be shocked at anything else they had to eat to survive either.

I do think that Paige is a malcontent and that no matter what she's not going to be happy.  She was just as miserable before she knew the truth.  She's almost insatiable about anything that she comes across that bothers her.  She can't let well enough alone and is extremely needy.  But, still, if she's truly depressed, it shouldn't be taken lightly.  P & E would be devastated and the Jennings can't afford an intense investigation that would result if she hurts herself. 

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

I thought they were *rotted" potatoes. (image of actual Russian rotted potato) 

Well, maybe that's how his family died?  But we know his mom was still alive when he had a job she collected his pay from his crooked boss. 

Either way, Philip's childhood is very interesting to me, hopefully they move this along, but it's kind of cool with the EST desire/connection, it explains that storyline well.

[BetyBee]

I think Henry's sudden interest in math was triggered by someone, probably female, who is recruiting him.  Maybe someone from the Center?  

[jjj]

20 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I think Henry's sudden interest in math was triggered by someone, probably female, who is recruiting him.  Maybe someone from the Center?  

No.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, operalover said:

Why would they be spying on him if he is on their side?

To make sure a) he's not a double agent, b) the KGB doesn't try to snatch him, and c) someone else doesn't try to get to him.

Edited April 6, 2017 by dubbel zout

[crgirl412]

9 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I'm sure you do.  That being said, you don't know my sister.  

I LOL'd at this as I too have an insufferable sister and immediately understood that it wasn't her using the chopsticks that make her insufferable.  If that were the only thing............

[shura]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

They were probably there to make sure Alexei didn't get snatched.

I suppose. Seemed like there were too many of them guarding him on that trip though, as if they had a reason to think he had to have extra protection. They don't guard him in such numbers in DC, from what I can tell, he bowls and has a beer with Philip without the whole platoon. But maybe that's because DC is a crowded place, as opposed to rural Illinois.

Still something is off here. If the company (or the government, for that matter) needs a Soviet expert's knowledge about things in the USSR (soil composition, pesticides, whatever), what is it that he has to go and see in person in an Illinois greenhouse? Seems like the writers just needed Elizabeth to discover the midges and didn't really think this through.

[Umbelina]

I think I know what is bothering me the most about this season, and it showcases in this episode with Misha risking his life, escaping the USSR, and then thwarted at the end by a KGB agent that doesn't seem to mind that he captured a traitor and escapee, and is just a mushy about it.  Also, he tells a kid who just spent weeks in terror, after who knows how long in the prison/psych ward, and years before that killing people he considers innocent good people in Afganistan, and what does Gabe promise him?  He will SEND HIM HOME.  WTF?

Pace.

The pace seems off, way off for this show.  Also, predictability, because many of us figured out the poison grain was bullshit right away, for many reasons, lack of security, it didn't happen in real life, and we also predicted it was all to devastate Philip.

Philip's hanging on by a thread, we get it.  His daughter always looks constipated, never has any fun, and is having her life ruined because of the KGB.  He's going to EST, having horrible flashbacks of a truly bleak childhood, and realizes he's ignored his son for most of a year now.  He's hearing the Russian couple talk about what life is really like in Russia now.  Before that he heard William tell him what a mess it was back there, "can't even make threads on bottle caps."  Tuan isn't helping matters on the bleakness front either.  He's wanted to defect since the series began, and is only doing this for Elizabeth.  He flashes back about murdering those kids, but now he's murdering innocent people. 

So, it's pretty obvious Philip is going to break here soon.  But is all this build up overkill?  Misha will probably be the final straw, but again, pace.  The show thwarted Misha at the very end.  I want Misha and his dad to connect, but will they, or will Claudia get rid of him before they do?  All that work and anticipation may not pay off in a satisfying way.  The same thing with Paige, we get it, she's depressed, she has no good future and she's trapped as well, but I'm just bored watching her angst never end.  Perhaps in the hands of a better actress, but then again, maybe it really is the writing...I honestly can't tell.  I'm sick of the same old story over and over and over again with her, at least with Philip we get changes of expression and those lovely flashbacks.

[Dev F]

23 hours ago, whiporee said:

Ben apparently does not have an Phillip's mad skills, because E could not have looked more disinterested, and I think disinterested is  hard place to get to in that situation.

I actually thought the idea was exactly the opposite: The only time we've ever seen Elizabeth really get into her sex work before was in "One Day In The Life Of Anton Baklanov," when her mark was adamant about getting it done for her ("I want you wet") instead of just going after his own pleasure. Ben wasn't blowing it with Elizabeth, he was doing exactly what she likes -- and still she couldn't get into it. It indicates, I think, how far the Jenningses have come in their relationship and how sick they are of having to "make it real" with anyone else.

[magemaud]

I thought Philip in his beard and glasses disguise (when he was tailing Renee) looked just like the EST lecturer! 

I agree Oleg's father looks nothing like him, so maybe his mother came back from her years in the gulag with a little comrade on board. 

At first I thought Martha wasn't attractive enough for Oleg, but after he turned down the three "silly young girls" I thought maybe he would be interested in a more mature woman. It give me hope that maybe we'll see an Oleg-Martha meeting! 

[crgirl412]

9 minutes ago, magemaud said:

I thought Philip in his beard and glasses disguise (when he was tailing Renee) looked just like the EST lecturer! 

I agree Oleg's father looks nothing like him, so maybe his mother came back from her years in the gulag with a little comrade on board. 

At first I thought Martha wasn't attractive enough for Oleg, but after he turned down the three "silly young girls" I thought maybe he would be interested in a more mature woman. It give me hope that maybe we'll see an Oleg-Martha meeting! 

I had to watch it online due to work and I had to rewind to make sure what I was seeing!  I wonder why they did that??? 

[Anela]

My DVR cut out just as she said they'd made a terrible mistake.  

[J-Man]

I'm confused about Renee's reference to "the Kings." As far as I know, there are no sports teams of that name in the DC-Baltimore area. In fact, the only ones I can think of are the Los Angeles hockey team and the basketball team that was in Kansas City until 1985, then moved to Sacramento. So is Renee from one of those places, and is it relevant? Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but Kansas City isn't that far from ... Topeka!