S05.E17: Kapiushon

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Prometheus goes to great lengths to break Oliver. Meanwhile, in the flashbacks, Anatoly becomes worried about Oliver's increasingly violent tendencies, which come to a head in a brutal confrontation.

[mtlchick]

That was one intense hour.  And the end result was...Oliver enjoyed killing someone so he needs to shut it down. 

I can see why Stephen Amell wrote on FB that it was so demanding that he snapped at his wife for no reason.  

[Jediknight]

Man, Oliver was one sick and twisted dude.  If they reveal he had a closet where he kept the skin of people he tortured, I wouldn't be surprised.

And Artemis is still alive, and still against Oliver.

[Soulfire]

I don't know what to say. So intense.

Flashbacks still don't interest me, but I liked the rapid back and forth they did between them toward the end of the episode when Chasemetheus was trying to get Oliver to confess.  Nice effect.

Stephen Amell played this really well. 

PS. Never rewatching this episode because holy TORTCHAAA. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Soulfire

[KenyaJ]

I started watching this episode on the DVR thirty minutes into the show, and I wish I'd waited 45 minutes. I fast forwarded through all the flashbacks, because I stopped caring about them in Season 3. Even once I caught up with the live episode, I zoned out every time they cut to a flashback. I can't express how happy I'll be to be rid of them (for the most part) next season.

Having been spoiled about Oliver's confession, I probably could have skipped this episode altogether. Wish I'd thought of it.

[BkWurm1]

To say that I enjoyed that isn't really the right term but it was for Arrow, well done.  SA was just wonderful in the present day scenes.  The emotion poured off him.  Lying on the ground still in shackles with tears in his eyes, that got to me almost more than when he was begging for Eveylyn's life (The ingrate.  Wow, I soo want her to die now.  Before I was good with putting her on a bus and letting her restart her life as a normal teen but nope.  She's evil.  To do that to someone is just EVOL!)

 This was an interesting episode.  I really expected to walk away frustrated with Oliver and how he was coming to grips with his secret, but instead I just feel bad for him and want them to let him go back to the suburbs with his beloved crock pot.  He doesn't want to do this anymore.  Never have I believed him so completely.  It also makes his time back in Ivy Town more bittersweet because finally he'd gotten to put it all in his past and stupid DD dragged him back in.  And he went from super happy to this absolute misery.  

I still don't buy that Oliver killed people cause he liked it in the way that Chase wants him to think or even as simply as Anatoly wanted to label it but yeah, I do think his time in Russia and specifically being able to distance himself from the violent parts of his nature is when he was at his darkest so kudos for the show runners to FINALLY getting him there.  Still don't think that any of that negates anything we've seen.  He got too close to the darkness and let too much of it in and he'll have to guard against letting it take him over but he's already come so far.  

It is strange that the show is pretending that he's only now seeing himself for the killer he was.  Um, that happened in season two.  

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Man, Oliver was one sick and twisted dude.  If they reveal he had a closet where he kept the skin of people he tortured, I wouldn't be surprised.

And Artemis is still alive, and still against Oliver.

I really didn't get that vibe.  Him practicing the torture technique played more to me like he was really doing just that.  Honing a skill he was forced to learn and was convinced by Waller was a necessary evil at times.  And that this was one of those circumstances with the Sarin gas.  It probably took him back to the Hong Kong virus.  He was in a head space in that moment of time to make the man involved in such an evil suffer, so he coldly took advantage of it and caught up in the moment, kept going for "practice", but there's been nothing of Oliver's personality to suggest he has ever fallen back into that kind of moment again.  He's done the torture thing still, sure, but never to that kind of degree.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

How badass would it have been if Oliver had stumbled back into the ArrowCave and told TA, "He thinks he broke me. Let's get this son of a bitch."

Alas, that's not what happened. It was difficult to watch poor Oliver get broken down like that. As I said in the live thread, I hope Oliver's downright giddy when he kills Chase. He can take out Evelyn while he's at it. Although, maybe a cozy cell in the underground Lian Yu prison would work since she's so young and would have a long, long time to think about her actions. 

I still don't believe Oliver "liked" killing. Satisfaction in getting rid of bad guys? Sure. But liked it or sought it out? Nope. The guy in S1 was shut down and suffering from massive PTSD, but he was still able to make connections with people. I never saw enjoyment killing Henchman #31, and I hope the eventual resolution of this story line is Oliver's realization that this is not true. 

I liked seeing MM in the flashbacks and wish he'd been used sparingly in this manner over the past few years. Less is more, Show.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

I still don't believe Oliver "liked" killing. Satisfaction in getting rid of bad guys? Sure. But liked it or sought it out? Nope.

Yeah, I feel better (so far) about what MG said about the killing after this episode. I'm not *quite* sure what they're doing with Flashback Oliver - if we're supposed to believe he enjoyed it at one point, or that he believed he did but didn't. There wasn't any indication that current Oliver does - in fact they showed the opposite.

[benteen]

Really good episode and very intense.  I also thought the flashbacks were well edited together with the present day.

I don't buy that Oliver has done all of this because he loves killing and Chase is wrong when he says that Diggle's life isn't better because of Oliver.  I would argue Felicity's as well.  But there's always been darkness hanging over him and I suspect he'll be done with killing and recommitted to being the Green Arrow by the end of the season.

Really liked seeing MM in the flashbacks.  That makes three Arrowverse shows in a week that John Barrowman was on.

[Mellowyellow]

How did the scene with the glasses play out? Was Oliver more worried about FS or Spawn?

Is spawn coming back?

[wonderwall]

Stephen did say that Chase wanted to sell Oliver something... Maybe he wanted to sell to Oliver how he loves killing and how he's a 'monster'. 

I haven't watched this episode yet. I fear I may not recover if I do...

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

How did the scene with the glasses play out? Was Oliver more worried about FS or Spawn?

Well, a crazy guy threatened to kill his kid so...yeah, he was worried about that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well Chase, Evelyn and Talia are three very sick and pathetic fucks.

"Tell me your seeeeeekrit!!!!! TELLMETELLMETELLMEEEEEE!!!!!"

With last week and tonight's episode, any layers or characterization for this whiny man was wiped out and he was turned into a one dimensional villain.

No words for Talia, which would take pages and pages and I fear I'd break the internet. Just that she's as pathetic here as she is depicted in comics and the animated shows. So, yay for getting most right?

That all said, I agree, this was one intense, painful episode to watch and Amell did a really good job.

Oh look! It's that boxer from Rocky IV! The one whose words to Rocky were the famous "I must brrreak you."? He was better in the movie than here. And he wasn't any great thespian to begin with. So sad.

Anotoly's telling Oliver that the latter was his "Favorite American" and Oliver asking him how many Americans he says that to was just the levity I needed to get through this episode.

I really thought that when Oliver said sorry to Chase, that it was for what he (Oliver) was about to do: which was to headbutt Chase and then kick him in the balls as he so richly deserved, and I so needed and wanted to see.? But no. Just more torture in burning the Bratva tattoo off.

I'm feeling particularly bloodthirsty right now and pissed that Oliver didn't even get in one lick. Well other than throwing Chase's black kettle/hypocrisy in his face regarding how Chase murdered his own wife, an innocent, while blathering on about how Oliver was this cold blooded killer.

And no fucking way am I buying that Oliver loved Killing. Chase was just looking for something they had in common if his sick smile was anything to go by. I was tired of him even before he was "revealed" as Prometheus, so now I can't wait until he, Evelyn, and Talia sleep with the fishes.???

ETA: SHIT! I missed the part where it was revealed Evelyn was part of this torture/conspiracy. The fucking, ungrateful, whiny little twat. I hope Thea shoots her chest and body full of arrows.

Edited March 23, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[bmoore4026]

Outlander did the torture and breaking of a hero way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Outlander did the torture and breaking of a hero way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.

Och! Dinna remind me, @bmoore4026! I've never been able to rewatch what that monster did to my Jamie! ????

[jay741982]

I'm calling it: Chase will try to kill Felicity in front of Oliver in season finale setting Oliver AWFF and he murders the shit out of him. Also FUCK that POS BITCH EVELYN. I hope she dies painfully and slowly. What did Oliver do to deserve what that Hypocritical Evil sack of shit did to him. I kinda Want Felicity to kill her or at least beat her ass 

[Lantern7]

Well, shit. So. Much. Manpain. I mean, I'm glad that Artemis' real name might as well be "Tara Markov" and that Adrian didn't really snap her neck, but damn. I feel that if Music Meister tried to show up to deal the therapy he recently gave Kara and Barry, Oliver would just shoot him in the head. And Meister would drop, even if he's a fifth-dimensional imp or whatever. This is not the cheeriest of the DC/CW shows.

Anybody else hoping that Kovar becomes a big bad next season? I mean, it would be so funny if he got rebuilt and was on the mend thanks to Malcolm. Then he'd come back from his excellent adventure on LoT, all, "I know I'm forgetting something." And then he sees Kovar wreaking havoc on Star City. "Oh, right! That guy! Shit, why did I feel the need to hang out with idiots named 'Leonard' and 'Eobard'?!?" Dolph does add something special to the role. I kept expecting him to tell his guests about the time he beat a man to death with tens of thousands of witnesses present and he got off scot-free.

I also like Adrian, in the sense that he's not in the same league as Damien. No powers or camp from him . . . just an intense desire to see his father's killer suffer. Also, he's dressed so well while torturing Oliver. And it's nice to see him leave to pretend to be a DA.

How the heck could Anatoli live? He must have a healing factor. It's been eight years since Amazo and five since Ollie's Russian Adventure, but damn. If we saw him limping in the first season, the last few episodes would've explained a lot.

[way2interested]

Intense episode (with props to tension/action master director Kevin Tancharoen), even though part of me feels like it could have benefited from just one scene of the team looking for Oliver, but I don't think it hurt the episode too much without it.

Most of all, I'm just really glad they actually (relatively) managed to get me to buy Oliver's "confession" while still making it pretty open that it was pretty much a coerced confession on Oliver's fear/perception of himself rather than being genuinely what Oliver believes. Kind of semi-dreading 518 because it's going to be going through the whole cycle of Oliver believing he's a killer and not a hero again, but it looks like it's actually bringing out visceral conflict rather than a dragging moroseness, so that could be an interesting way to take it.

[wonderwall]

This moment is so well acted. You can practically feel Oliver's anger and desperation. Like he wants to jump out of his skin and DO SOMETHING but he can't. Just a phenomenal job by Stephen

Edited March 23, 2017 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

Quote

No words for Talia, which would take pages and pages and I fear I'd break the internet. Just that she's as pathetic here as she is depicted in comics and the animated shows. So, yay for getting most right?

I'm confused.  She wasn't in the episode.  So huh?

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

This moment is so well acted. You can practically feel Oliver's anger and desperation. Like he wants to jump out of his skin and DO SOMETHING but he can't. Just a phenomenal job by Stephen

The filter on this makes his chest look like half his skin had already started to rot.  

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

The filter on this makes his chest look like half his skin had already started to rot.  

CAN WE NOT DO THIS

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

CAN WE NOT DO THIS

Sorry.  Lol.  I'm also that lovely person who can't help commenting on what everyone's food looks like.  ;p

[benteen]

Spoiler

Anybody else hoping that Kovar becomes a big bad next season?

Maybe he can join the Legion of Doom.  That would be fun.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm confused.  She wasn't in the episode.  So huh?

My bad! She sounded like Talia for a second, but it was that twat, Evelyn that Chase was talking to, right? When he said he broke Oliver? But I will still include Talia in my rage because she set this all in motion, or was integral to it because Oliver killed her Daddeeeeeee, as if that boring piece of murdering shit was some innocent.?

[LeighAn]

31 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

I'm calling it: Chase will try to kill Felicity in front of Oliver in season finale setting Oliver AWFF and he murders the shit out of him. Also FUCK that POS BITCH EVELYN. I hope she dies painfully and slowly. What did Oliver do to deserve what that Hypocritical Evil sack of shit did to him. I kinda Want Felicity to kill her or at least beat her ass 

I think Felicity has to become the key piece in the chess game at some point. 

[BkWurm1]

Kovar being alive does add new possibilities to the show.  I tend to think that it will be stuff for this season though.  He'll probably try to destroy Star City cause you know someone has to do it in May or the residents will get nervous.  Chase isn't going to do it.  Someone has to step up.  

How though has Kovar kept the fact that he is alive a secret?  

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

I think Felicity has to become the key piece in the chess game at some point. 

Yeah, she and Dig were mentioned too many times not for something to come of it.  

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

He'll probably try to destroy Star City cause you know someone has to do it in May or the residents will get nervous

Spoiler

Not that MG wouldn't lie, but didn't he say that Star City isn't in danger this year? And it seems like based on other spoilers that the finale takes place elsewhere (like Lian Yu).

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

Man, Oliver was one sick and twisted dude.  If they reveal he had a closet where he kept the skin of people he tortured, I wouldn't be surprised.

And Artemis is still alive, and still against Oliver.

Wait, what? I literally don't get this. What are you talking about it?

Oliver is just gonna open a whole can of fuck you up on Chase when he gets his sea legs back. And I'm going to love every minute of it.

[way2interested]

Spoiler

Dolph was filming 521 Lian Yu scenes I think, or at least KP said he was on set this week, so that could have been for something else. I just assumed he ends up being part of that group of people with weapons chasing Oliver and Anatoli back to the island and his stuff will just stay in the flashbacks.

 

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Kovar being alive does add new possibilities to the show.  I tend to think that it will be stuff for this season though.  He'll probably try to destroy Star City cause you know someone has to do it in May or the residents will get nervous.  Chase isn't going to do it.  Someone has to step up.  

How though has Kovar kept the fact that he is alive a secret?  

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Not that MG wouldn't lie, but didn't he say that Star City isn't in danger this year? And it seems like based on other spoilers that the finale takes place elsewhere (like Lian Yu).

Spoiler

I was thinking he was saying that Chase isn't trying to destroy Star City.  Did he say the whole city was safe from anyone?  

[catrox14]

If Kovar is alive seems like he and Malcolm should team up or something to try and kill Oliver. Peculiar.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

How though has Kovar kept the fact that he is alive a secret?  

Ah you are right that we don't know if he survives the flashbacks.  There's still time for that.  Likely even.  I did though briefly like the idea that we'd found a connection perhaps between Susan, Russia and Prometheus.  Wishful thinking still trying to make Susan more than pointless.  Speaking of Susan, she didn't even come up for a second tonight, did she.  Chase must know she's not important.  Maybe he watches the show?

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

  Hide contents

I was thinking he was saying that Chase isn't trying to destroy Star City.  Did he say the whole city was safe from anyone?  

Spoiler

I don't remember, honestly.

But this from SA indicates that Star City isn't a player?

Have you heard much about the season finale, and is there anything you can tease?

The season finale, we basically have to shoot the entire thing on location.

 

Unless he's wrong about the whole thing being on location.

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, I feel better (so far) about what MG said about the killing after this episode. I'm not *quite* sure what they're doing with Flashback Oliver - if we're supposed to believe he enjoyed it at one point, or that he believed he did but didn't. There wasn't any indication that current Oliver does - in fact they showed the opposite.

Did MG say something new? SA told EW “I like examining this stuff because one of the truths that we reveal in season 5 — via our flashbacks and in present day — is there was an element of Oliver that we met in season 1 that took a little bit of pleasure in snapping somebody’s neck" so I think we're supposed to believe it. I might just choose not to anyway. 

I never thought I'd say this but the girl who plays Evelyn killed it tonight. She really sold seeming to be broken. And as this might have been SA's best ever. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Did MG say something new? SA told EW “I like examining this stuff because one of the truths that we reveal in season 5 — via our flashbacks and in present day — is there was an element of Oliver that we met in season 1 that took a little bit of pleasure in snapping somebody’s neck" so I think we're supposed to believe it.

This is the comment I was referring to: 

Quote

Spoiler

If we’ve done our job with season 5 correctly, if we stick the landing on all of this, by the end of the season, our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way. My hope is the whole season will kind of answer that question if we pull it off.

 

I meant that I feel better about what that means for Oliver in present day. I didn't know MG had said anything about past Oliver's feelings about killing, and wasn't basing my interpretation on anything MG said, but the story the show was telling - based on what we saw tonight, I just wasn't sure exactly what they were going for with past Oliver. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Did MG say something new? SA told EW “I like examining this stuff because one of the truths that we reveal in season 5 — via our flashbacks and in present day — is there was an element of Oliver that we met in season 1 that took a little bit of pleasure in snapping somebody’s neck" so I think we're supposed to believe it. I might just choose not to anyway. 

I never thought I'd say this but the girl who plays Evelyn killed it tonight. She really sold seeming to be broken. And as this might have been SA's best ever. 

I agree, this was Evelyn's best episode.  I completely bought into her being the victim.  Even after live posters were calling it as a fake out, I thought she was dead dead and for once, the show totally fooled me.  

I'm ok with the thing about there being an element of Oliver that took pleasure in snapping a neck because he wasn't killing random people and he was doing it for a purpose and yeah, it's after he's been super traumatized and turned into a weapon.  He was doing what he was made to do but that casual attitude didn't last and it's that guy that I identified with, not the guy that hadn't yet met Diggle or Felicity.   

[AudienceofOne]

I don't know. From the beginning of this season, this whole thing has felt like a retcon and this episode was a part of that. I did like the ending. Regardless of whether you buy into the premises, I think someone who'd just been through what Oliver had would want to give up. I think my problem is the idea that Oliver created Prometheus when Chase was clearly a nut job waiting for a trigger. 

My problem remains that I don't believe that Season 1 Oliver was this out-of-control killer looking for any excuse to kill people. He was methodical and focused and he manifestly did not kill everybody on the list. In fact, killing them was often Plan C or even D. Yes he may have gotten a rush of power from the kill. With the adrenalin rush, that's not surprising. But I feel like the show has forgotten its own mythology.

[SleepDeprived]

It's funny that Taiana had more relevance to the plot in this episode (not really, though, since her Mother's connection to Kovar is actually the important part of her character) than in her whole FB run during S4. Heh.

The amount of Malcolm in this episode is the amount of Malcolm that we should've gotten in previous seasons. Little teases and not entire arcs/motivations revolving around his infectious brand of crazy.

I'm torn. On the one hand, this episode is really good and intense, plus it kept most of my attention despite being so flashback-heavy.  On the other hand, much like the consensus of the board, there is just no way that I'm buying what Prometheus was selling--that Oliver killed and kept killing because he liked it and he wanted to. Especially, not after he met Diggle then Felicity. I mean, if I squint hard enough, I guess I can maybe blurry-ly see how the Oliver that came back from Russia/the island 2.0 got so dark that he enjoyed the killings but, and I admit I should rewatch S1 to be certain, the Oliver that I actually remember never relished in any of his killings. He did kill a lot of bad guys, yeah, but not once do I recall him liking it. Anyway, MG can choke on soda if he wants me to believe that, all this time, it's the thrill of the kill that Oliver's been chasing.

Kudos to Stephen Amell for his fantastic work! SA really knocked all his scenes in the present out of the park. It wasn't Emmy-worthy yet but certainly he could get nominated for a Saturn Award or something. And I say that without shade at all, just admiration for his superb work in this episode while still being realistic.

Prometheus really used Evelyn well in his psychological manipulation of Oliver. What has Oliver ever done to Evelyn that she hates him this much, really? I just don't get her. She can use one of Oliver's special arrows and fly herself to the moon, for all I care. Anyway, Josh Segarra still keeps bringing it as a psychotic villain obsessed with breaking Oliver. Stealing Felicity's glasses to further break down Oliver?!? How dare you, my man?! Then the call back to The Count holding Felicity hostage? Yep. She's definitely going to be his biggest chess piece in this game he's playing.

[AudienceofOne]

4 minutes ago, SleepDeprived said:

What has Oliver ever done to Evelyn that she hates him this much, really? I just don't get her. S

Her character makes no sense. Prometheus' killing has been more random and indiscriminate than anything Oliver has done so why would she side with him? 

[statsgirl]

Oliver failed to save her parents when they were under Damian Darhk's thrall.  Maybe she also grew up with the HIVE cult.

And she's whacko like Chase. (I mean that in a totally fictional sense.)

[BunsenBurner]

It's creepy but I like the fact that the bratva star in now cut to look like the morning star killer star. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by BunsenBurner
Didn't make sense after reading it.

[jay741982]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver failed to save her parents when they were under Damian Darhk's thrall.  Maybe she also grew up with the HIVE cult.

And she's whacko like Chase. (I mean that in a totally fictional sense.)

I'm just hoping Evelyn pays dearly for being a huge lying hypocritical sack of shit. I don't understand especially after this episode how her actions can be justified except for she's a pyscho. I'm hoping Thea or even Felicity kills her 

[SleepDeprived]

Damn. The bloodthirstyness of this episode kinda carried over to this thread, huh? Lol.

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The filter on this makes his chest look like half his skin had already started to rot.  

Also, that filter makes his Bratva tattoo look like it was made with a sharpie.

Was Prommy using blunted arrows when he made that cluster shot at Oliver's shoulder? Because if his arrows were sharp enough, 3 of them totally would've shredded Oliver's pectoral muscles and likely would've hit the brachial plexus or, even, the brachial artery since it was so close to that area. His whole right arm would've then be pretty useless. Or he'd be bleeding out. But his wound looks kinda shallow. I'm guessing Prommy used blunted arrows, not to harm irreparably, but to inflict more pain for Oliver? And then the burning of his left pec... I can't even imagine the excruciating pain, not to mention, the smell, of actual burnt flesh. Man. No wonder Felicity and Diggle couldn't take their eyes off Oliver's chest when he came back. As much as I think SA could've played Oliver a little bit more wounded in the aftermath (seriously, he just sprung up from the floor like a jack-in-the-box once he came to), the horror on Diggle and, especially, Felicity's faces really sold that last scene. Great work all around for the actors.

Edited March 23, 2017 by SleepDeprived
spellcheck failed me the first time!

[finnaire]

Whew, I can start breathing again. I knew there was going to be torture and I knew it was going to be bad. And it was bad. But, they didn’t show as much as I feared they would. They managed to cut away just before it would get too hard to keep watching. So, I thank the editors for that. 

Little Evie’s all grown up and turned into an evil co-conspirator. Didn’t see that coming. Nice job, show. And Chase, in his shirt sleeves, acting all evil prosecutor. He’s one of those annoying bad guys that really likes to listen to himself talk.  And poor Oliver had to put up with him for six days. Not gonna lie, when Oliver realized he was free and stood up, I couldn’t help wondering if he’d gotten any bathroom breaks. My mind always goes to the practical considerations in those scenes.

So, the confession is that Oliver wants to kill. Because he likes it. I can see that he might have a self loathing belief that this is true. But, in reality, I don’t think we’ve seen it to be true. He may get satisfaction from the power and control he feels when he’s in life and death situations and manages to survive, but I don’t believe his motivation for putting himself in those situations is driven by pleasure. Hopefully, he can sort out the difference. 

[wonderwall]

I'm not crying T_T

http://westallenolicitygifs.tumblr.com/post/158726524984

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

To say that I enjoyed that isn't really the right term but it was for Arrow, well done.  SA was just wonderful in the present day scenes.  The emotion poured off him.  Lying on the ground still in shackles with tears in his eyes, that got to me almost more than when he was begging for Eveylyn's life (The ingrate.  Wow, I soo want her to die now.  Before I was good with putting her on a bus and letting her restart her life as a normal teen but nope.  She's evil.  To do that to someone is just EVOL!)

I'm actually glad she isn't dead, because there was a scary few minutes where I thought I was getting too accurate with predictions about how this show kills off female characters. Do not want that. And I thought it was a pretty great twist. Also, MM's best performance by light years. I don't think I want anyone to kill her, really. She should, however, be locked up in an asylum.

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

How badass would it have been if Oliver had stumbled back into the ArrowCave and told TA, "He thinks he broke me. Let's get this son of a bitch."

I liked seeing MM in the flashbacks and wish he'd been used sparingly in this manner over the past few years. Less is more, Show.

1. Pretty damn badass.

2. I liked seeing Malcolm as well. I'm actually wondering whether they'll mostly use him in flashbacks for the rest of the season. That would work best, I think. Also, it could be neat to include a shot of him finalizing a stage in the Undertaking at the end of the flashbacks as Oliver leaves the island or has just come back. Preferably with Moira.

3 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

It's creepy but I like the fact that the brava star in now cut to look like the morning star killer star. 

It does? I didn't catch that. I though Chase just ("just", Jesus) burned off Oliver's skin.

As someone upthread said. Impressive episode, never watching it again. Thank God for Anatoly and the levity he brought. Maybe you could let us in now? 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the FBs so far so I was pretty surprised by how dark they made Oliver. I don't believe present time Oliver likes to kill..I haven't thought that once in 5 years (present time or FBs) but the Oliver that tortured that guy in the FBs seemed someone else. Still I think more than liking to kill it was (talking about the FBs and season 1) liking to give bad guys what he thought they deserved, which is still wrong, but different from taking pleasure out of the act of taking a life.

I don't even know if we will get more clarity in the future or the focus will be shifted towards him thinking he ruins the lives of the people he loves and trying to keep his distance and the team having none of it.

Oh and Evelyn is the worst! 

[thuganomics85]

Interesting and intense episode to say the least.  Different too, since it was mainly just Oliver/Chase for half of it, and the rest was all flashbacks, which were shown more then they usually are, but I still enjoyed it.  Stephen Amell and Segarra were both great: the former continuing to finally seem to be invested again and the later is a perfect mixture of unhinged insanity, but moments of clarity and knowledge.

That said, I'm still not sure I fully buy what Chase is selling.  I do think Oliver had/has a rush whenever he kills someone, but I never got the sense he really enjoyed it.  I feel like if he enjoyed killing, he would be more willing to take out anyone that stood in his way.  I feel like Oliver just really got it in his head that he needs to right wrongs, and take out those doing harm, and just believed that the only way to do so was to make sure they didn't get another chance to do it again.  Sure, that is wrong on a lot of levels, but I'm not sure I'll fully buy into the monster tag.  Also don't think Chase was right about Felicity and Diggle being better without him.  In particular, I remember if felt like Diggle was almost directionless in his life before he met Oliver, and now he has a wife, a son (obligatory "Thanks, Barry, for vanishing Baby Sara out of existence!"), and a purpose.  And while Felicity seemed content when they first met, I wonder if she ever would have realized her full potential if she didn't meet him.  So, yeah, I felt like that was all Chase the playing mind games.

Evelyn's back, I see.  I felt like there was something off about her death simply since they didn't have the normal neck-snapping sound, that shows tend to do whenever that happens.  She is totally Team Prometheus, now.  I so can't wait her for her downfall.

Gregor's dead.  Viktor the Traitor is dead.  Kovar died briefly, but got resurrected by Malcolm (!) of all people.  I guess you shouldn't fully off a Dolph Lundgren character, in case you ever need him again.  And now Anatoly is in charge!  Yay, Anatoly!

I didn't realize till the end that none of the newbies were in this, other then Curtis.  I really just don't care about them, it seems.

So, the big thing at the end is Oliver is considering on hanging up his hood and going home.  Yeah, I don't see that happening for good, but I have to imagine this going to shake him to the core for a while.

Kevin Tancharoen is always welcomed behind the camera.  I vastly prefer him compared to the "Bam Bam" director that everyone else seems to rave about.

[ketose]

More than this show, I hate myself for still watching this show. I can buy that Talia is a nutcase who just wants a cult of revenge killers, but Adrian is a total asshole. Of all the questionable kills in S1, killing his father, who started an epidemic in the Glades to sell a cure, needed killing more than almost anyone on Arrow. Sorry Oliver gave you bad feels while he was SAVING THE WORLD last season.