Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[lucindabelle]

Finally we agree lol. D&D are shameless liars. Their words about their intent matter not at all because they’ll turn around the next episode and say they meant something else.

i actually had at one point preferred the show to the books- I didn’t think GRRM was a great stylist. But what happened this season really took a thoughtful and debate worthy show into Marvel territory (or action hero- I’ve only seen a couple of Marvel films so maybe I’m wrong).

thats just not my cup of tea.

[Colorful Mess]

I still think its viewers' job to put in some work, to be critical of the "text." Viewers should examine why they were screaming "burn them all!" at the TV after Missandei's execution, examine why they started to see all the Starks as enemies, examine why Northern Independence was ridiculed when Sansa was wanted it but cheered when Robb and Jon were crowned, examine why they feel the need to blame Jon for Dany's actions because he didn't fuck her, examine why they justified every violent act because she's a homeless female orphan/rape victim.

Some of this reflects my own journey reading the books: at the end, Dany still had contempt of the nobility in Meereen even though she had won, and she concluded that the nuclear option was the "solution." I found myself agreeing with her - BUT I was scared that I was agreeing with her. So I started to be more critical of her from that point.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[ShellsandCheese]

There’s no such thing as a war criminal in the GoT universe, as such D&D aren’t trying to show us that Dany is a war criminal. They are trying to show that she’s gone mad; and for me it’s still not working. It appears that everything after the bells ringing in episode was done just to make the audience feel some type of way; the lingering shots of all those poor women and children, etc. Quite frankly, I’m not invested in a bunch of KL randoms. I’ve been invested in this story because of the main and secondary characters and they are getting the short end of the stick. Some moreso (Dany, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, Varys) than others (Cersei, Sansa, Arya).

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Dany has been prioritizing winning the throne over all other considerations for quite a lot time now. She's killed for it, and had others kill on her behalf. She wrested leadership of an entire race of people and bent them to her will, dragging them from their homeland to fight and die for a cause that doesn't benefit them in any meaningful way. She "freed" the Unsullied from their masters, but didn't send them on their merry way to find lives of their own choosing. They're just fighting for a new master (again, in a foreign land that they have no connection to). She has not hesitated to use lethal force to press her will. 

...

The sad thing to me isn't that Dany as a person has become a tyrant. It's that all of the goals that she had wanted to accomplish by being queen has slipped away. She's not freeing slaves here - she's bending a population to her will. 

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Thats what she did, though. Conquering involves killing everyone, with the goal of rule by fear. She learned how to do that in Essos. That was her "ruling arc" - how to conquer people then rule like a god above them. She just dropped the "I'm saving you while conquering you" farce, which is what all colonialists think they're doing. Dany became true to herself, her house words, and what dragons always represent in the story.

Yeah, this is the thruline for me. It's not looking for places where Dany was actually crazy or crueler than other characters doing similar things, like Sansa feeding Ramsey to his own dogs. Or even that her personal system of justice marked her as evil from the start. It's when you put it together she's got a set of priorities and the more struggle she goes through the lesser ones fall away. When it comes to freeing slaves and conquering, the priority is conquering. Slaves are a really convenient motivation because it allows her to conquer while claiming she's doing it strictly for other people. So many revolutions go this way, and many cults are born the same way.

The show failed, imo, in setting this up clearly enough so that we understood how the people of KL looked in her eyes. Not that there aren't any moments that work. Her being frantic that Jon not tell anyone who he is is a pretty big tell, and agreeing with her on that or, for instance, claiming that Sansa is responsible for KL for telling, imo, kind of reflects that they did put across that priority to some extent. They just didn't make a good enough case for how you can't have the power fantasy and the compassion fantasy at the same time.

To speak to the SW comparison, for instance, it's true certainly that GL shows blowing up the Death Star as a good thing despite plenty of probably plenty of ordinary non-evil workers getting killed on it. But he also spends the story making the purpose and threat of the DS clear so that blowing it up is self-defense. In the case of many of Dany's heroic moments it's not set up as the Death Star so much as generic dick bad guys who think they're dealing with a powerless girl and are about to get a big surprise. It's calling different emotions, imo.

[TheGreenKnight]

8 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

What Mirri did to Dany was deceptive and evil and cruel. That doesn't excuse what Dany did as heroic, right or just. At what point does doing what the monsters do turn us into monsters ourselves?  

Except nobody ever argued that her actions there were "heroic," only that they were no different than similar actions committed by nearly every other character on the show and hardly a sign of madness.

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sansa and Arya are about the only ones who get Dany right. "We don't trust your queen." Daario and Cersei also saw her for what she was and cut through a lot of the b.s. 

I don't think any of these characters get Dany right; they were blinded by their own self-interest to judge accurately. The fact that they lucked up in being right thanks to a twist of fate isn't a reflection on their discernment in any way. Especially the idea that I should think Cersei isn't dumb as a rock makes me laugh. Cersei spends the entire series hating everyone outside herself, Jaime, and her children, and that caused her own misery and downfall. The fact that Sansa has transformed even a degree into Cersei is certainly not complimentary to the character.

[Maximum Taco]

42 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Except nobody ever argued that her actions there were "heroic," only that they were no different than similar actions committed by nearly every other character on the show and hardly a sign of madness.

I think a proclivity towards violence does make you mad. 

I'm not saying this one act should've been a "Oh damn, she crazy" moment for anyone, but it's not just one act with Dany. It's a pattern of behavior. 

Other people do commit horribly brutal acts, but the only one who does so with regularity and is still seen as more heroic than villainous is Arya, and I'd argue the show did a disservice to that character too by not depicting her as messed up as she actually is. 

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I don't think any of these characters get Dany right; they were blinded by their own self-interest to judge accurately. The fact that they lucked up in being right thanks to a twist of fate isn't a reflection on their discernment in any way. Especially the idea that I should think Cersei isn't dumb as a rock makes me laugh. Cersei spends the entire series hating everyone outside herself, Jaime, and her children, and that caused her own misery and downfall. The fact that Sansa has transformed even a degree into Cersei is certainly not complimentary to the character.

Why does Dany fall right into Cersei's traps then? Cersei used Dany's invasion to sway lords to her side, and Dany looked exactly like the mad conqueror Cersei said she was. Cersei wanted Dany to kill civilians and Dany did exactly what Cersei wanted. If Cersei was as dumb as a rock she wouldn't have held the throne for as long as she did, and wouldn't have made Dany completely lose her marbles. While Dany was busy incinerating the populace like a bug exterminator, Cersei and Jaime were having an emotional, human moment. Its amazing they managed to make Cersei look sympathetic and make Dany look like a cold blooded killer.  

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Except nobody ever argued that her actions there were "heroic," only that they were no different than similar actions committed by nearly every other character on the show and hardly a sign of madness.

Yeah, most of the characters have done some despicable things, but they didn't end up with the evil madness story arc.  Tyrion killed Shae for rejecting him (clearly murder, and clearly not a good enough reason by modern standards), but apparently he's still suitable for a government position on the council.  Melisandre burned a young girl, but she was able to get in some heroic moments, and go out on her own terms.

I just watched the behind the scenes special for episode five.  D&D are describing their intentions for what they want the audience to feel.  When the allies invade King's Landing, they expect you to cheer along, because you're supposed to want Cersei taken down.  That means they expect you to be cheering for Dany at this point.  This just confirms to me that Dany's mad queen turn is just a cheap twist, a moment that they expect to shock you, like the Red Wedding.

Except unlike the Red Wedding, we were never really expected to be invested in the Freys.  They sacrifice the Daenerys character for a cheap shock.

D&D also said something to the effect of if things hadn't worked out exactly this way, if all these bad things hadn't happened, we wouldn't be seeing this version of Daenerys Targaryen at King's Landing.  That says pretty clearly that this character arc was not an inevitable conclusion for her, and that she was clearly not just a bad person all along.  

[Maximum Taco]

13 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, most of the characters have done some despicable things, but they didn't end up with the evil madness story arc.  Tyrion killed Shae for rejecting him (clearly murder, and clearly not a good enough reason by modern standards), but apparently he's still suitable for a government position on the council.  Melisandre burned a young girl, but she was able to get in some heroic moments, and go out on her own terms.

To be fair here, Tyrion (in the show) kills Shae in what could be argued is self defense. She was trying to stab him with a dagger. Now you could argue that maybe he could've disarmed her and not killed her, but it wasn't like the books where he kills her just cause he hates her. 

Melisandre has always been someone who is under the victory at all costs credo. She has to defeat the Great Other/Night King, and if that cost is one bastard with King's Blood, or a small girl who is heir to the throne, or anything, she is willing to pay it. There were no illusions with Meli IMO. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Zuleikha]

Thats what she did, though. Conquering involves killing everyone, with the goal of rule by fear.

I know of no definition of conquest in which it intrinsically means "killing everyone." Dany already accomplished fear and King's Landing surrendered. She had conquered. Further massacring was not require either to be labeled a conquest or to achieve her military goals. 

In any event, it does neither of us any good to get into a debate over semantics.

My point--which I thought was clear--was that what we had shown would have supported Dany achieving military victory in King's Landing but implementing draconian, tyrannical policies to enforce submission to her rule. That would have totally been in character and also lead to conflict with Jon, Sansa, and the North. But what we have been shown to this point does not support the specific choice the writers made for the character of having her massacre civilians post-surrender. That's simply not the particular logic and flavor of the way Dany is brutal. It's possible the writers could have developed her character in a way to make that choice feel right and true, but they didn't because they didn't want to take the time to do so.

What's interesting if reading comments even of people defending the choice. People are using all sorts of different explanations--some of which are mutually contradictory. I've seen people argue that she snapped as a result of all of her losses, and I've seen others argue that she made a cold, calculated military decision. When even the people who are okay with the scene differ so much in their understanding of the writers' intention for the why, it's a pretty clear sign that the writers did not do the work to earn the action.

[Sakura12]

Its not Dany being crazy I have a problem with, it's how the show got her to that point that I take issue with. 

I should be excited to see the last episode instead of dreading it. I don't think I've ever felt that way about a shows series finale. At least other shows managed to wait until their last episode to ruin their characters. 

[lucindabelle]

I feel you. I’m not even watching. 

[slf]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

it so frustrating debating this with you as you clearly refuse to stick to show canon whatsoever and are reading in and bring in external facts to support your conclusions. You are constantly changing the terms of this debate. Please do not quote me again.

You are interpreting scenes one way, I am interpreting them another. Show canon is what we see and hear in every episode, which is what I base my opinions on.

If you were Unsullied and you were being lead by someone with fire breathing dragons who burns anyone who betrays her would you steal off in some boats? The imbalance of power between leaders and the people who serve them is always uneven but it's been ten times worse with Dany these past few seasons. Perhaps with only one dragon left and a host of new enemies they could try to make a run for it, though Dany may now be more predisposed to killing them if they tried than if they'd done it several seasons ago when she had more dragons. It's a coin toss and one where thye get burned to death if they're wrong, just as it has been this whole time.

Sorry but you just haven't made a very good argument in favor of Dany having actually freed the Unsullied. She picked up a whole ass slave army who had nowhere to go, no way to make a living other than killing, no education beyond killing, no families to go to; thousands of men who were institutionalized. It's a nice trick; she gets to be the Breaker of Chains all the while benefiting from slave labor.

[screamin]

21 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

But did Dany deserve to be lied to? Did she deserve to have her unborn baby turned into a monster?

I was just re-reading the books. Mirri is careful not to lie outright to Dany...she says life must be given for life, and Dany asks if it will be her own life, and Mirri says no. Dany, relieved, does not question further. Mirri later says that Dany at bottom understood what life would be paying for Drogo's life. Maybe that's what Mirri said to salve her own conscience about what she was doing, but Dany really should have made sure she understood what the price was for what she was asking.

Mirri was vindictive and vicious. But Dany was not an innocent bystander in the killing of Mirri's people. It was for Dany's sake that the killing of Mirri's people happened, so that the survivors could be sold as slaves to raise funds for an invasion of Westeros. Yes, Drogo was motivated into the attack by King Robert's assassination attempt on his pregnant wife - but Dany was pushing for it long before Drogo made up his mind to carry it out.

[slf]

Well, I can't say I'm surprised that they sold her out that hard in the end. I didn't find her descent unbelievable but it was pretty swift and the dialogue as well as the relationship with Jon (and her response to him pulling away) made it worse. If anything I would have expected Dany to be the one to really pull back from Jon. Dany has suffered at the hands of incestuous desires before. I've always found it hard to believe she would ever want to be with a man she was related to.

A better ending would have been Drogon taking a wounded Dany away somewhere. 

[lucindabelle]

What you write is true. But the takeaway really should be that Mirri is vicious as you say- justifiably, maybe, but she is. She tricks Dany. 

On the show anyway it’s clear Dany does it approve of the raping and pillaging and in fact she is the one who stops it.

she has some responsibility for what she set in motion perhaps but she didn’t foresee what it would be. In that she was naive and foolish.

my main point is that l Dany is no more evil for tricking Krazynys than Mirri is.

Edited May 20, 2019 by lucindabelle

[Sakura12]

I wanted a final shot of Drogon in Valyria. 

[Hana Chan]

Dany didn't become "evil" or "crazy". She became a fanatic. The same kind of behavior that we see out of the worst kind of dictators, who decide what is right, tolerate no dissent and are so convinced that they are right that they will destroy any who stand in their way.

The seeds of this were planted a long time ago and to hear her echoing the words that she had spoken so long ago about burning cities made it clear that this wasn't a quick heel change. It might have spiraled downward quickly, but given all that was thrown at her, it's not totally unrealistic that someone convinced that they have a divine right to rule and a dragon might do just what Dany did.

[SNeaker]

32 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Dany didn't become "evil" or "crazy". She became a fanatic. The same kind of behavior that we see out of the worst kind of dictators, who decide what is right, tolerate no dissent and are so convinced that they are right that they will destroy any who stand in their way.

The seeds of this were planted a long time ago and to hear her echoing the words that she had spoken so long ago about burning cities made it clear that this wasn't a quick heel change. It might have spiraled downward quickly, but given all that was thrown at her, it's not totally unrealistic that someone convinced that they have a divine right to rule and a dragon might do just what Dany did.

More like D&D themselves think they could substitute foreshadowing for character development.

Unforgivably lazy. I've never in my entire life seen as terrible a hatchet job as was done on Dany.

[rmontro]

44 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Dany didn't become "evil" or "crazy". She became a fanatic.

Watching the finale just left me feeling hollow, and angry.  I did not find the ending satisfying at all.  A few decent quiet moments with the council, other than that, crap.  

There were spoilers which had said the Unsullied would leave on ships to go free slave cities, because that was their queen's last command.  Turns out that wasn't the case, Grey Worm left for Naath, which was Missendei's place of birth.  She had said her people were peaceful and could not defend themselves, Grey Worm had told her that the Unsullied would protect them.  Apparently that's their mission, which is cool.

From what I saw, Dany was crazy as a loon at the end.  None of that politco-dictatorial-grandiose stuff she was spouting made any sense at all IMO.  And it certainly wasn't consistent with what we had seen of her character in the first seven and a half seasons.  But frankly, I'm tired of arguing about that.  All we have left here is disappointment.

Edited May 20, 2019 by rmontro

[ShellsandCheese]

Emilia Clarke talking more in depth about finding out how season eight was going to go down - I Stand by Daenerys.

[jeansheridan]

Dany never had my favorite plotline. The dragons were neat but so much if her story was about delaying her return to Westeros. I think Emilia is a charming performer with a lot of charisma so it was easy just to like Dany. But Tyrion's list of her actions and how she was always rewarded for her most brutal choices was a fair one.

And I think about the story Varys told Tyrion about her. The homeless princess who became a Khaleesi and walked across the red waste and freed slaves. That's her story too. Seeing Grey Worm leave Westeros a free (and understandably angry) man is thanks to her but also Jon. Dany would have made Grey Worm do cruel things for the rest of his life. Now he gets to make his own choices. 

Did she have bad advisors? Absolutely. She had very bad luck losing Selmy and Jorah (I am not sure Missendrei ever advised her on much. Did we ever see her influence Dany?). And losing Yara, Oleana, and the Dornish leaders  immediately took away more voices. So she was stuck with two unreliable men. Varys died and Tyrion scraped by. 

Her story is tragic but I don't feel angry about the arc. She had an epic life full of grand deeds, some good, some bad. What's sad is her heart was in the right place. She wasn't petty like Cersei. But a fanatic with that much power needs to be contained. 

[rmontro]

18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Emilia Clarke talking more in depth about finding out how season eight was going to go down - I Stand by Daenerys.

I really enjoyed that article, because her reaction to what they did with Dany's character is very similar to how I felt about it.  They turned her into the Emperor from Star Wars, just to bring about some sort of cheap twist ending.  Horrible.  And they try to have it both ways, with Tyrion saying "I loved her, I believed in her".  Is she the woman Tyrion believed in, or is she the mass murderer?  They can't have it both ways.  They ruined her character.  I don't buy it, I will never buy it.

For those of you who, like me, were invested in Dany's character from watching her all these years, I want to say thank you.  I've taken comfort in knowing that some of you feel the same way I do about this mess.  As corny as it may sound, maybe the real Daenerys Targaryen will live on in our memory.  Because I am not convinced by this ending at all, not at all.  Maybe we can all meet for brunch every Tuesday  🙂

[lucindabelle]

For me, I am going with the season ended with episode 3. What they did To Dany was not convincing- almost laughable. But other characters also written badly.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

And they try to have it both ways, with Tyrion saying "I loved her, I believed in her".  Is she the woman Tyrion believed in, or is she the mass murderer?  

She is both. Her vision shifted into fanatism. Her refusal to merely take prisoners versus execution was established a few seasons ago (before Westeros). But Tyrion fell in love with her idealism and probably her youth. She seemed full of fresh ideas. And she believed in herself in a way Tyrion and Jon never could manage. Even Tormund talking about Jon's feats teases him. Nobody but Daario teased Dany.

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

For me, I am going with the season ended with episode 3. What they did To Dany was not convincing- almost laughable. But other characters also written badly.

I am  going with episode 10 of season 6.  Honestly she was not really believable since she met Jon Snow.  I am angry at how they treated Dany and Jon but I feel they played into long held trope plots for her and for me, that is unforgivable.  Dany spent 8 years working to get something and when she got it... lost her mind? No, just no. 

Dany was an inspiration for many people watching this show. And for them to choose her to be the fall baddie, complete with codependent urges for love from her nephew, was a choice that was not earned. All the people who died because they believed in her. 

Yet the person who is most directly responsible for her madness.. Tyrion, all works out for. Disgusting. 

[Sakura12]

Episode 3 of season 8 is the final episode for me too. If I was to know this show was going to become A song about the Snow and Lions, I would've not become that invested in it. 

We should've gotten a final shot of Drogon in Valyria. Knowing he took the last named Targaryen home to the birthplace of her ancestors. But Dany was never more than a means to an end for D&D. It's all about the Starks and the Lannisters. We even had to see Jamie and Cersei in a lover's death. When they should've been a pulpy mess. Dany was just forgotten. 

[Spartan Girl]

Because I'm a masochist, I watched the scene. And it was as awful as I feared. Dany got the death that Cersei deserved.

Acting wise it was fabulous: Emilia sold that hopeful vulnerability turned shock and betrayal when the knives went through her, and nice touch with Kit opening his mouth and no words coming out.

But it pissed me off that Jon just used the "you're my queen spiel" right before killing her. Hey Jon, its not that romantic after the first 10 times! You couldn't have just told her you loved her?! You were already lying about everything else!

And I would have liked at least one scene of Jon regretfully looking at their waterfall makeout spot en route to the Wall.

Rest in power, Dany. You deserved a better plot.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Soup333]

Using her love for him to trick her? I thought they were avoiding tropes. That’s an everyday occurrence for women. 

[Keely]

Game of Thrones Had an Opportunity With Daenerys Targaryen. The Show Squandered It.

I've been struggling to put all of my issues with this turn and how it played out into words. That review up does a masterful job detailing all the problems and will probably be my go-to when the discussion comes up in the future. I'm just going to leave it here for anyone else struggling.

[Soup333]

27 minutes ago, Keely said:

Game of Thrones Had an Opportunity With Daenerys Targaryen. The Show Squandered It.

I've been struggling to put all of my issues with this turn and how it played out into words. That review up does a masterful job detailing all the problems and will probably be my go-to when the discussion comes up in the future. I'm just going to leave it here for anyone else struggling.

Thank you. This is exactly how I felt. And honestly I feel a little stupid for expecting anything different. Written by a man and championed by men. At the end, bitches are crazy. Always. So disappointed. 

[MadameKillerB]

I don't like how Dany met her end. I cried my eyes out when Drogon saw she was dead.

I will miss Dany's awesome outfits and her dogged insistence that the throne was hers. She made all her decisions based on her identity as the "rightful Queen." Not my favorite character on the show but I'm bummed she had to go out that way.

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, BooBear said:

Yet the person who is most directly responsible for her madness..Tyrion, all works out for. Disgusting. 

Dany is responsible for her own emotions and choices. Blaming anyone else for her actions, especially the one person who always tried to stop her from giving in to her destructive impulses, is gross.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I am not sure Missendrei ever advised her on much. Did we ever see her influence Dany

I don't know about advice, but they did care about one another

When the shit was going down in the Mereenese fighting pit at the end of Season 5, and it looked as if they were all going to die, Dany and Missandei held hands. And I think it was Dany who reached for Missandei's hand

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, BooBear said:

Dany spent 8 years working to get something and when she got it... lost her mind? No, just no. 

A little too convenient, wasn't it?

1 hour ago, Keely said:

Game of Thrones Had an Opportunity With Daenerys Targaryen. The Show Squandered It.

I've been struggling to put all of my issues with this turn and how it played out into words. That review up does a masterful job detailing all the problems

Long article, but great.  I like what it says about Tyrion:

"Daenerys agreed to make Tyrion her hand because Tyrion said he “knew things” — specifically, he claimed to know how to make alliances in Westeros and exploit people’s hate of Cersei in order to put Daenerys on the throne. Except, Tyrion did…none of that. Once they crossed the sea, when did Tyrion convince a single lord that if they joined their side, they could get a new title and nice castle and see the land’s most hated woman burned to a crisp? Never."

Tyrion failed Dany in numerous ways, but that was the worst IMO.  All he seemed to care about what how to save his family, and he failed in that too.  But he gets the happily ever after treatment, or at least as close as it gets in GoT.

[Sakura12]

For me I was only interested in the Dany parts of the episode. The imagery of her having dragon wings, her speech while terrifying really showed she was in charge and the only time I teared up was when Drogon kept nudging his mother and his cry of pain. Then picking her up and taking her away from it all. The last to really care about Dany. 

Once she died I just kept watching to finish it. And it was boring. At least if we saw Mad Dany it would've been exciting. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sakura12

[rmontro]

26 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

the only time I teared up was when Drogon kept nudging his mother and his cry of pain.

That part got to me too, even though I had steeled myself going into it.  I've never really liked dragons before, but I was emotionally invested in these, just as some posters are wrapped up in the direwolves.  Like the direwolves, we got to see the dragons grow up from puppies, so they're kind of like family pets.  And we all know how much a part of the family pets can be.

[Keely]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

A little too convenient, wasn't it?

Long article, but great.  I like what it says about Tyrion:

"Daenerys agreed to make Tyrion her hand because Tyrion said he “knew things” — specifically, he claimed to know how to make alliances in Westeros and exploit people’s hate of Cersei in order to put Daenerys on the throne. Except, Tyrion did…none of that. Once they crossed the sea, when did Tyrion convince a single lord that if they joined their side, they could get a new title and nice castle and see the land’s most hated woman burned to a crisp? Never."

Tyrion failed Dany in numerous ways, but that was the worst IMO.  All he seemed to care about what how to save his family, and he failed in that too.  But he gets the happily ever after treatment, or at least as close as it gets in GoT.

That part got me as well. Especially when it goes on to list all the ways he failed. I knew he wasn't a good advisor, but forgot the chapter and verse list.

[rmontro]

1 minute ago, Keely said:

That part got me as well. Especially when it goes on to list all the ways he failed. I knew he wasn't a good advisor, but forgot the chapter and verse list.

And if he had gotten some more people on her side, maybe she wouldn't have felt so unwelcome and alone in Westeros, and wouldn't have gone mad queen.

By the way, I wanted to mention I was a little impressed that Yara was still loyal to Daenerys at the council meeting.  The Ironborn are a hard people, so it makes sense that if anyone would be remain loyal after the devastation, it would be her.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Dany is responsible for her own emotions and choices. Blaming anyone else for her actions, especially the one person who always tried to stop her from giving in to her destructive impulses, is gross.

We are not blaming him for Dany burning down KL. What we do blame him for was being a crappy adviser and giving her horrible advice out of sheer stupidity or a mind-boggling need to protect Cersei despite everything she's done, which basically got most of her armies wiped out (Highgarden, Ironborn, Dorne), and rather than taking any responsibility for those mistakes or deciding enough was enough with Cersei, he kept undermining her. Which definitely played a part in her downfall.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Because I'm a masochist, I watched the scene. And it was as awful as I feared. Dany got the death that Cersei deserved.

Acting wise it was fabulous: Emilia sold that hopeful vulnerability turned shock and betrayal when the knives went through her, and nice touch with Kit opening his mouth and no words coming out.

But it pissed me off that Jon just used the "you're my queen spiel" right before killing her. Hey Jon, its not that romantic after the first 10 times! You couldn't have just told her you loved her?! You were already lying about everything else!

And I would have liked at least one scene of Jon regretfully looking at their waterfall makeout spot en route to the Wall.

Rest in power, Dany. You deserved a better plot.

I see a lot of Jon’s reactions to Dany as similar to Ned and Robert. Ned had sworn fealty to Robert and would hold that line as long as possible. I think Jon meant she was his Queen. My country, right or wrong. I was never sure why, frankly. She saved them which was great but why just give it all up like that. Still, he did. 

I think the incest had caused him to pull back in the romantic love, that and grilling children. No one likes the smell of grilled children. 

[Dobian]

Jon was like his dad, which is why he would never be a good king of anything.  He's loyal to a fault and can't figure things out and make decisions on his own.  This has been his M.O. the entire series, which is why I always inwardly groaned at the prospect of him winning the Iron Throne.  Cersei was evil but she knew what she was doing.  Dany would have brought the dark ages to Westeros.  And Jon would have just fumbled along while the different houses screwed him over.

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

I see a lot of Jon’s reactions to Dany as similar to Ned and Robert. Ned had sworn fealty to Robert and would hold that line as long as possible. I think Jon meant she was his Queen. My country, right or wrong. I was never sure why, frankly. She saved them which was great but why just give it all up like that. Still, he did. 

Well, Jon didn't want it.  Honestly, the ending I used to expect was Dany getting killed in the battle with the Night King, and Jon ending up on the throne, in possession of a dragon or three.  I would have much preferred that, because although it would be bittersweet, Dany's character would be intact.  And it would have made a lot of Jon Snow fans happy.  GRRM seems averse to making his readers happy, however.

Jon being like Ned just makes it all the more baffling as to why Varys would jump so quickly to support him as king, when he helped remove Jon as Hand.  One more thing that doesn't make sense.

[Callista]

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

A little too convenient, wasn't it?

Long article, but great.  I like what it says about Tyrion:

"Daenerys agreed to make Tyrion her hand because Tyrion said he “knew things” — specifically, he claimed to know how to make alliances in Westeros and exploit people’s hate of Cersei in order to put Daenerys on the throne. Except, Tyrion did…none of that. Once they crossed the sea, when did Tyrion convince a single lord that if they joined their side, they could get a new title and nice castle and see the land’s most hated woman burned to a crisp? Never."

Tyrion failed Dany in numerous ways, but that was the worst IMO.  All he seemed to care about what how to save his family, and he failed in that too.  But he gets the happily ever after treatment, or at least as close as it gets in GoT.

If the story had been more politically realistic, as it was in the first few seasons, lots of nobles would have wanted to ally with Dany when (or even before) she got to Westeros: people with grudges against the Lannisters, people who would see that allying themselves with Dany could be a way of increasing/gaining their own power, etc.  If I remember correctly, in the books Victarion Greyjoy and the Martells were already seeking her out even if she wasn't in Westeros yet. 

This is also why I found the Northerners' unified hostility so unrealistic--I believe at least some of them would have wanted to get on her good side so that they could benefit from allying with her after the war against the dead. The Boltons can't have been the only power-hungry family in the North.

But of course, this scenario would probably have been too complicated for D&D to write, so they settled for an overly simplified storyline.

[RobertDeSneero]

2 minutes ago, Callista said:

This is also why I found the Northerners' unified hostility so unrealistic--I believe at least some of them would have wanted to get on her good side so that they could benefit from allying with her after the war against the dead. The Boltons can't have been the only power-hungry family in the North.

The North was unified in its desire to be independent of the Iron Throne.  How does an alliance with Dany further that goal?

[Callista]

21 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The North was unified in its desire to be independent of the Iron Throne.  How does an alliance with Dany further that goal?

That's what I was saying--it's unrealistic for every single Northerner to want to be independent of the Iron Throne. Realistically, some of them might be aiming higher and thinking that if they ally themselves with Dany and help her get rid of Cersei, then they might be able to place themselves in positions of power in Dany's court, or even find a way to get rid of Dany afterward and place a Northerner on the throne. Why settle for being one independent kingdom when the North could rule the 7 kingdoms?  But, like I said, the writers simplified everything by making the Northerners unified in wanting an independent kingdom and nothing more, so that they could focus on their main storyline.

[RobertDeSneero]

If they are aiming higher, it would be that they want to be King in the North in place of Sansa.  Dany doesn't help that goal.

[Callista]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If they are aiming higher, it would be that they want to be King in the North in place of Sansa.  Dany doesn't help that goal.

No. If some of them were really aiming higher, they wouldn't be content with simply being King in the North; they would also want to be king of all the 7 kingdoms.  And the more cunning among them would see Dany as a means to reach that goal.

For example, in the first few seasons, we saw the Boltons--Northerners--usurp the Starks. Do you really think they would have been content to remain simply Wardens of the North for the rest of their lives? Especially if the political situation had continued to work in their favor?

But, as I've been saying, the writers wanted to focus on the main characters and their goals/problems, so they didn't bother with other political realities anymore.

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

We are not blaming him for Dany burning down KL. What we do blame him for was being a crappy adviser and giving her horrible advice out of sheer stupidity or a mind-boggling need to protect Cersei despite everything she's done, which basically got most of her armies wiped out (Highgarden, Ironborn, Dorne), and rather than taking any responsibility for those mistakes or deciding enough was enough with Cersei, he kept undermining her. Which definitely played a part in her downfall.

The key choices that Dany made that led to her downfall were decisions that Tyrion strenuously advised her against:

1. Executing Randyll and Dickon Tarly.

2. Taking her dragons to rescue Jon.

3. Failing to accept surrender and using dragonfire on civilians.

Tyrion's advice was always aimed at taking the 7K without dragonfire (especially against civilians, but he wasn't thrilled about her using it in the field or as an execution method, either) and minimizing the loss of innocent life. He sold it to Dany as good PR, but given his frantic attempts in Season 8 to prevent a massacre, it wasn't Dany's image that he was worried about. It wasn't just about Cersei, either, since Tyrion urged Dany against burning the slavers' cities when she started up with her burning cities to the ground rhetoric in 6x09, and since even to the end Tyrion was trying to convince Jaime to get Cersei to surrender to save the city. It may have been naive to think that taking the 7K without using the dragons was even possible, but given what Dany ended up doing, I'd say that Tyrion being worried about what would happen if Dany used her dragons on KL proved to be a valid fucking concern. 

Tyrion knew all along that Dany could be very dangerous and destructive, but like Varys, he still justified his support of her by telling himself that he could temper her worst impulses if he could get her to listen to his advice. And to be fair to Tyrion, he did try up until the last possible moment to do that.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Eyes High

[slf]

I don't find the Northerners being unified in their desire for independence to be unrealistic. Unrealistic, in my opinion, is this expectation that every single people Dany came into contact with would want her to be their Queen (except for evil slaveowners, of course). The North has its own history, most of which pre-dates the Targaryens in Westeros. It has its own culture, its own religion. Those families have their own desires, obligations, and ideas for the future. And I doubt, after everything that happened, the Northerners really wanted to have to fuck with the Westermen or Ironborn, or anyone else involved in the wars who didn't side with them. They hadn't exactly been pro-South prior to the war.

Edited May 21, 2019 by slf