S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

In the scene where Jane talked about moving back home and both Madeline and Celeste tried to talk her out of it, it occurred to me that I totally believe in Madeline's friendship with Jane, but not so much Celeste, who seems mainly to hang out with Jane because Madeline likes her, rather than having any kind of bond with her herself. So Celeste joining with Madeline in trying to talk Jane out of going felt more like lip service than genuine friendship. Then again, that ties in with Celeste's personality in general - she walks on egg shells in all things, and we only rarely glimpse beneath that mask.

Perry would most likely go ballistic if Celeste expands her circle of friend (no s here) by 1 person.  Celeste probably thought it would minimize Perry's reaction if he found out Jane was just a friend of a friend she happened to hang out with

[Guest]

1 hour ago, QuinnM said:

In thinking back on the episode this exchange between Celeste and Maddie really highlights the level of acting we're dealing with here.  It was so authentic you almost forgot you were watching a scripted dialogue.  Even the introduction of Perry was just 100% what goes on with friends and wine on the the deck.  I think part of the success of this series is the strong skills of the cast.  Poor Zoe and Shalene - it's hard to shine when you are constantly standing next to the sun.

Props to Kidman for pulling off the long laughing at Maddy.  That's not easy to do, I think.... keep laughing at something not that hilarious for like a minute straight.  

They do a lot of sitting around talking and drinking in the show, coffee or cocktails.  Good for the actors for somehow keeping it visually interesting with so little on-screen action.

[stagmania]

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

You're joking?  Haha.  I'd bet my condo that Adam was lipsyncing in Step Brothers.

Yep, he was lip synching. I watched the clip (always a delight), and you can almost believe it's really him until he gets to the "I can sing HIGH" part. So the weak Elvis singing in this episode is probably his real singing voice.

[MaryWebGirl]

6 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

It's not surprising at all that Maddie has kept her affair with Joseph from Celeste. She doesn't want to admit to anyone, especially to herself that she's betrayed the one man that has been there for her and their children. 

I was thinking about Madeline being open with Celeste about the kiss but not the affair, and I wonder if maybe they've only been friends since the kids started kindergarten, so a year or so. 

Also the reveal of the affair explains why Joseph hid when he saw the group having coffee in the first episode.

[scrb]

Aren't battered women generally from lower socioeconomic groups?

And they usually stay in the relationship because they don't have the means to leave the battering husband?

Celeste is well-educated and has options if she wants to get away.  Not to mention she could take Perry to the cleaners financially in a divorce, get exclusive custody, etc.

Also, I wonder if Perry would really have the restraint to hide his actions from the kids.  Maybe he's hidden it so far (or maybe one of them is the one bullying Amobell because of what they saw at home) but eventually he's going to not bother trying to hide it.  If not physical abuse, verbal abuse in front of the boys will become common.

[Gem 10]

FYI .. If anyone interested, Shailene Woodley in movie "The Fault in our Stars" tonite on the east coast 8 pm, Fox Movie Channel.  I never saw her in anything else, so I'm interested.

[Kostgard]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

Aren't battered women generally from lower socioeconomic groups?

And they usually stay in the relationship because they don't have the means to leave the battering husband?

Celeste is well-educated and has options if she wants to get away.  Not to mention she could take Perry to the cleaners financially in a divorce, get exclusive custody, etc.

Also, I wonder if Perry would really have the restraint to hide his actions from the kids.  Maybe he's hidden it so far (or maybe one of them is the one bullying Amobell because of what they saw at home) but eventually he's going to not bother trying to hide it.  If not physical abuse, verbal abuse in front of the boys will become common.

No and no. Domestic violence happens across the entire socioeconomic spectrum. And the reasons for staying are extremely varied and complicated. Some stay because they can't afford to move out. Some stay because they've been manipulated emotionally/psychologically and they do love their abuser (I think they are doing a good job of showing this with Celeste). Some stay for the kids (to protect them). Some stay because their abuser has told them "If you leave me I will kill you" and they believe them (usually with good reason).

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm going to go ahead and butt in and re-recommend that all women read the book called "The Gift of Fear".  You can't just leave an abuser!   No matter how rich you are you are not immortal.  This book could save your life.  Author Gavin De Becker is an expert on this stuff.  This is a matter where ignorance on a topic can actually put you in mortal danger.  After taking 4 years of Criminology, hell, after watching 1 episode of SVU, the ignorance surrounding domestic abuse here makes me want to weep.

Liane Moriarty, the author of Big Little Lies, probably partly wrote this book to show that domestic violence can really happen across all platforms of life.  It's a great book; after the series is done I recommend that everyone read that too.  It does a great job of delving much deeper into Celeste's inner monologue and internal struggle surrounding the abuse.  (Rather than the show, which people seem to be interpreting as, but Celeste is so hot, LOL, can't she just marry Keith Urban?)

Relationships are hard to leave even without violence.  People don't like being left even if they're non-violent.  Compound those issues with children, and the type of man who uses violence to solve issues, or lashes out physically when he's rejected, I mean, come on!  Do the math.  It's the oldest cliche in the book..... OJ Simpson anybody?

@Gem 10 I think I heard that The Fault in our Stars is good, but very sad!  One of my friends is also a big fan of The Divergent series starring Shailene.  

Some of you were talking about Ed showing up at Bonnie's work.  I agree, it shouldn't happen in real life and therefore might look silly onscreen.  But I believe television writers use this shortcut to kill 2 birds with one stone.  It moves the plot along by showing one person confronting another, and it shows one character at work so you get a better sense of who they are by showing what they do for a living.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Gem 10]

16 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm going to go ahead and butt in and re-recommend that all women read the book called "The Gift of Fear".  You can't just leave an abuser!   No matter how rich you are you are not immortal.  This book could save your life.  Author Gavin De Becker is an expert on this stuff.  This is a matter where ignorance on a topic can actually put you in mortal danger.  After taking 4 years of Criminology, hell, after watching 1 episode of SVU, the ignorance surrounding domestic abuse here makes me want to weep.

Liane Moriarty, the author of Big Little Lies, probably partly wrote this book to show that domestic violence can really happen across all platforms of life.  It's a great book; after the series is done I recommend that everyone read that too.  It does a great job of delving much deeper into Celeste's inner monologue and internal struggle surrounding the abuse.  (Rather than the show, which people seem to be interpreting as, but Celeste is so hot, LOL, can't she just marry Keith Urban?)

Relationships are hard to leave even without violence.  People don't like being left even if they're non-violent.  Compound those issues with children, and the type of man who uses violence to solve issues, or lashes out physically when he's rejected, I mean, come on!  Do the math.  It's the oldest cliche in the book..... OJ Simpson anybody?

@Gem 10 I think I heard that The Fault in our Stars is good, but very sad!  One of my friends is also a big fan of The Divergent series starring Shailene.  

Some of you were talking about Ed showing up at Bonnie's work.  I agree, it shouldn't happen in real life and therefore might look silly onscreen.  But I believe television writers use this shortcut to kill 2 birds with one stone.  It moves the plot along by showing one person confronting another, and it shows one character at work so you get a better sense of who they are by showing what they do for a living.

Oh Geeze .. Thanks for the info.  Just read what it's about and just can't watch that type of movie.  Waterworks.

[Ina123]

46 minutes ago, scrb said:

Aren't battered women generally from lower socioeconomic groups?

Wow! No. Like the poster above said, it covers all bases and they stay for various reasons. A big one is embarrassment.

[susannot]

39 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Liane Moriarty, the author of Big Little Lies, probably partly wrote this book to show that domestic violence can really happen across all platforms of life.  It's a great book; after the series is done I recommend that everyone read that too.  It does a great job of delving much deeper into Celeste's inner monologue and internal struggle surrounding the abuse.  (Rather than the show, which people seem to be interpreting as, but Celeste is so hot, LOL, can't she just marry Keith Urban?)

 

I bought the book for my Kindle and can't wait to read it.  It's going to be a struggle to wait three more weeks.

[mochamajesty]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

Aren't battered women generally from lower socioeconomic groups?

And they usually stay in the relationship because they don't have the means to leave the battering husband?

Celeste is well-educated and has options if she wants to get away.  Not to mention she could take Perry to the cleaners financially in a divorce, get exclusive custody, etc.

Also, I wonder if Perry would really have the restraint to hide his actions from the kids.  Maybe he's hidden it so far (or maybe one of them is the one bullying Amobell because of what they saw at home) but eventually he's going to not bother trying to hide it.  If not physical abuse, verbal abuse in front of the boys will become common.

You could turn the tables and ask if women from higher socioeconomic groups have access to better education and the ensuing critical thinking skills to refrain from  stereotyping  women in battered relationships. 

I hope that people reading these forums understand the answer to the "Why won't she just leave him?", question. 

Celeste faces it from all sides. Between the fear created by Perry and the possible (probable)  fact that no one would believe her ^^^^^,  who exactly will she tell?

Edited March 14, 2017 by mochamajesty
To keep snowflakes from melting

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm going to go ahead and butt in and re-recommend that all women read the book called "The Gift of Fear".  You can't just leave an abuser!   No matter how rich you are you are not immortal.  This book could save your life.  Author Gavin De Becker is an expert on this stuff.  This is a matter where ignorance on a topic can actually put you in mortal danger.  After taking 4 years of Criminology, hell, after watching 1 episode of SVU, the ignorance surrounding domestic abuse here makes me want to weep.

Liane Moriarty, the author of Big Little Lies, probably partly wrote this book to show that domestic violence can really happen across all platforms of life.  It's a great book; after the series is done I recommend that everyone read that too.  It does a great job of delving much deeper into Celeste's inner monologue and internal struggle surrounding the abuse.  (Rather than the show, which people seem to be interpreting as, but Celeste is so hot, LOL, can't she just marry Keith Urban?)

Relationships are hard to leave even without violence.  People don't like being left even if they're non-violent.  Compound those issues with children, and the type of man who uses violence to solve issues, or lashes out physically when he's rejected, I mean, come on!  Do the math.  It's the oldest cliche in the book..... OJ Simpson anybody?

 

Thanks. That book is awesome and has been out for a while.

And yes it is very sad.

[scrb]

The children complicates things but she has options.  If she was smart, she has her own savings account from the days when she was making a lot of money.

Other thing is, if Madeline is getting play from the theater director, Celeste is probably getting hit on as well.  Eric Northman could disembowel her some day, so she should be more open to these advances.

She warned him that if he hurt her again, she'd leave him.  That was a couple of episodes ago and in this one, he would have hurt her more if the kid didn't walk in on them -- and how long before the kids are no longer a deterrence to violence?

She's going to have to follow through on her threat or he will escalate.

[jeansheridan]

Also she hasn't been working for at least six years.  How do we know she has her own money?  I see Perry controlling the credit cards and checking them. She probably has access to a shared account but if she were to empty it and bolt with the boys, how long will it last?  And Perry has plenty of legal rights as the father.  She hasn't been documenting her bruises.  As of right now we just have one therapist who seems suspicious but in court what could she really attest to?  Celeste seemed intimidated and scared.  He admitted to getting physical once.  That's not enough to take away his rights.  And it shouldn't be honestly.  Anyone could say that about an ex-spouse.  The burden is on her to gather evidence in a systematic way and who has the capacity in the middle of such a relationship?  I see her trying.  Trying really hard to figure out a way.  Plus I'm not a mother, but I imagine the first four or five years with twins must be exhausting.  Just physically and mentally exhausting.  

I hope she starts talking to Jane more.  I just think they have a lot in common.  Jane had to raise a child recovering from a trauma and she's doing amazingly well considering.  Ziggy is a great kid.  She seems financially stable if not rich.  I know her job from the book, which I'll spoiler tag just in case.  

Spoiler

(I think she is a book-keeper.  Okay, I remember that from the book, but I hope that's not a spoiler)

I feel horribly for Celeste.  People, even her friend Maddy, just seem to see the surface all the time.  Very few people really just look at her like the therapist did.  And in all fairness to Maddy, someone who has never experienced an abusive relationship probably isn't going to look for the signs.

Edited March 14, 2017 by jeansheridan
because I can't remember character names!

[Kostgard]

12 minutes ago, scrb said:

The children complicates things but she has options.  If she was smart, she has her own savings account from the days when she was making a lot of money.

Other thing is, if Madeline is getting play from the theater director, Celeste is probably getting hit on as well.  Eric Northman could disembowel her some day, so she should be more open to these advances.

She warned him that if he hurt her again, she'd leave him.  That was a couple of episodes ago and in this one, he would have hurt her more if the kid didn't walk in on them -- and how long before the kids are no longer a deterrence to violence?

She's going to have to follow through on her threat or he will escalate.

It is true that she has options, but again, it is extremely complicated and far easier said than done. 

And as pointed out in the thread above, embarrassment/shame also plays a huge part. Probably because it is easy for people on the outside to look at it and think, "Why on earth does she stay? She has the means to get away, what's wrong with her? If she's staying when she could totally leave that must mean that it can't be as bad as she says it is." There's a lot of misinformation/misinformed views out there about domestic violence, which adds another layer to all this that makes it that much harder for someone to reach out for help and get out of their bad situation.

I'm hardly an expert on this, so I can't really explain everything fully. But I'm glad the show is portraying the situation like this. It is saying that yes, it can happen to a woman like Celeste. And yes, she's staying for complicated reasons even though she's not happy/in danger. She's dealing with feelings of guilt and shame because even though Perry is hurting her, she's still attracted to him/loves him and maybe feels somehow complicit in her own abuse. Why doesn't she just tell Maddy what is going on because Maddy would totally help her? Well, she's ashamed and it is complicated. Celeste is not your stereotypical "abused woman." But she is not pure fiction. There are plenty of women out there like her. We all need to broaden our knowledge about this to help us better spot it and help the people stuck in those situations.

 

ETA: I agree that she could talk to Jane more, but in some ways I think she is afraid to. When they first met and Jane was going on about how beautiful and perfect Celeste seems, she had a look on her face like, "Girl, you have no idea what the real story is." Shame is probably playing a huge role here.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Kostgard

[Mabinogia]

16 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Celeste faces it from all sides. Between the fear created by Perry and the possible (probable)  fact that no one would believe her ^^^^^,  who exactly will she tell?

I think she is getting closer to at least wanting to tell. The conversation she had with Maddie a while back, about how fights ended with sex was her kind of testing the waters a bit, and when Madeline, not knowing what Celeste was really doing, seemed kind of shocked I think Celeste backed off and realized this is something she must never share. I am hoping she will finally tell the therapist at least because keeping it a secret is a huge part of why she can't leave. She can't admit what is happening. If she can, then eventually perhaps she can get out.

It kind of mirrored Maddie's talk with Celeste about Hot Producer. Maddie wanted to tell someone but she also doesn't want to fully admit to it out of shame. So she shares a small bit, the kiss, and watches for Celeste's reaction. It's okay so she kind of admits she kissed back, but the she freaks out, what if she loses her best friend! So she covers up the depth of it, just like Celeste did.

Those two scene's were very interesting to me. Very truthful in that there are some things you don't think you can share even with your best friend for fear they won't be your best friend after they know the truth. Ah, the big little lies we tell to protect ourselves and the fragile shell of a life we make for ourselves, or perhaps to show to others. Because I think, for both of them, they are living lives for the audience (not us, but their audience, the other parents, their kids, those people who see them and envy what they think their lives are). But are either of them really happy? Celeste is being beaten by her "hot, perfect husband" and Maddie doesn't really have passion for the "guy who stuck around unlike Nathan who left her".

They are really just such great characters with such rich, deep histories and lives. That is my favorite part of this show. I don't even care who died or who did it, and half the time I forget there was a murder. I just enjoy peeling back the layers of these women and their far less than perfect lives.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Celeste and Perry portray the perfect couple with the perfect children.
The wives ooh and ahh over Perry and his charm, looks, or important job.
The other parents envy their life, how it looks from the outside.  The house, their looks, their vacations, maybe even their public physical displays of affection.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[stanleyk]

19 minutes ago, scrb said:

The children complicates things but she has options.  If she was smart, she has her own savings account from the days when she was making a lot of money.

Other thing is, if Madeline is getting play from the theater director, Celeste is probably getting hit on as well.  Eric Northman could disembowel her some day, so she should be more open to these advances.

I would encourage everyone to do some reading on domestic violence. I'm certainly no expert, but it's just not as simple as saying, "Well, she's got money and an education, so she can leave." Others have said it better than I could so I won't reiterate, but there are many reasons why it's difficult to escape a domestic violence situation. Here's an interesting article with a study showing that highly successful, high-earning women are more likely to be abused because of the power imbalance in the relationship: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/sarah-knapton/10679238/Educated-and-well-paid-women-more-likely-to-suffer-domestic-abuse.html. I have done pro bono work in domestic violence court, and I saw the entire range of socioeconomic circumstances represented there. This is not a class or wealth issue, and the implicit judgment that a women with means is to some degree responsible for her situation is problematic.

I'm also not sure what your second point is. Are you suggesting that Celeste should have an affair so that she can get a man to protect her from Perry? I would have to strongly disagree, on every basis from the practicality of such an escape plan to the suggestion that a woman needs to run to another man to escape a domestic abuse situation. The idea that she should have an affair for the sole purpose of securing physical protection from another man is pretty repugnant, on many levels.

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

No one mentioned that scene after Celeste escapes with the kid. Perry almost put his fist through a wall.  He was full of seething rage. And after the moment passes - is he full of remorse?  Does he have one iota of,  'What have I done?".  No. He grabs his briefcase and walks out of the door as 'normal' as you please.

 

I noticed it last night when I watched again. She made it seem like they were in a hurry for the kids but you could tell she was getting the hell out of there before he did something. 

[Mindthinkr]

On 3/12/2017 at 10:36 PM, kjwillis93 said:

A few quick thoughts: 

Perry is infuriating. His absolute need for control in his relationship with Celeste is difficult to watch. Between the constant whines that Celeste is keeping things from him, demands to know everything at all times, and a physical abuse fetish - he is an insufferable shell of a man. 

As for Ed, I really do feel as though all of this "creepy" behavior is a major red herring. I'm not sure he's behind the murder-mystery. 

But when it comes to Amabella, I am genuinely confused as to who is behind the bullying. What are some of your predictions? (And don't spoil anything if you have read the book). 

           I haven't read the book but here is my prediction. Sorry if others have posted it before me. Not meant to step on toes. I think it's one or both of the twins. As 'hands on' as Perry seems with his wife, I'm sure that the kids have heard or seen something of the abuse/bullying. When children live in a home with that happening without outside consequences they believe it to be normal. They could be hurting Amabelle and bullying Ziggy into keeping his mouth shut and accepting the blame. Regardless they say abuse comes in circles/cycles. Those boys will not make the best boyfriends/husbands in their adult life. They regard the mistreatment of women as normal and their role model is an abuser. If they have seen something their father could even have scared them silly into keeping their mouths shut or lying, if necessary, to protect his own butt. Celeste should have left her husband if only to break the cycle and not allow her boys to be involved. She's an attorney and could easily adjust and make it own her own. It's a shame how many women stay with their abusers. Just sad. 

[Gem 10]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Wow! No. Like the poster above said, it covers all bases and they stay for various reasons. A big one is embarrassment.

Yes, embarrassment and Fear mostly I think.  First of all, Maddie repeats to others.  She blurts and is an investigator.  I shudder to think if and when Celeste does leave, what would that nut job Perry do?  He is super scary.  I feel for Celeste and anyone who has to go through this.  Unimaginable.

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

It is true that she has options, but again, it is extremely complicated and far easier said than done. 

And as pointed out in the thread above, embarrassment/shame also plays a huge part. Probably because it is easy for people on the outside to look at it and think, "Why on earth does she stay? She has the means to get away, what's wrong with her? If she's staying when she could totally leave that must mean that it can't be as bad as she says it is." There's a lot of misinformation/misinformed views out there about domestic violence, which adds another layer to all this that makes it that much harder for someone to reach out for help and get out of their bad situation.

I'm hardly an expert on this, so I can't really explain everything fully. But I'm glad the show is portraying the situation like this. It is saying that yes, it can happen to a woman like Celeste. And yes, she's staying for complicated reasons even though she's not happy/in danger. She's dealing with feelings of guilt and shame because even though Perry is hurting her, she's still attracted to him/loves him and maybe feels somehow complicit in her own abuse. Why doesn't she just tell Maddy what is going on because Maddy would totally help her? Well, she's ashamed and it is complicated. Celeste is not your stereotypical "abused woman." But she is not pure fiction. There are plenty of women out there like her. We all need to broaden our knowledge about this to help us better spot it and help the people stuck in those situations.

 

ETA: I agree that she could talk to Jane more, but in some ways I think she is afraid to. When they first met and Jane was going on about how beautiful and perfect Celeste seems, she had a look on her face like, "Girl, you have no idea what the real story is." Shame is probably playing a huge role here.

Well, allow me.  

When I was abused, shame was a big part of it.  Not only the shame heaped on you by your abuser (who does a lot to undermine your faith in yourself) but also by people who just don't know any better.  Even people who love you.   You are ashamed to admit that you 'picked him'.  You want the perfect picture to represent reality. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that this great guy who everyone loves, is abusing you.  You feel trapped - not always due to money, but you have nowhere to turn. You don 't feel safe - anywhere.

See,  scrb?  'Celeste' and I went through the same thing - and we are worlds apart in socioeconomic status.   It happens to us all. And I am glad that the show is exposing this side of abuse.

Edited March 14, 2017 by mochamajesty
To turn the other cheek.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Also she hasn't been working for at least six years.  How do we know she has her own money?  I see Perry controlling the credit cards and checking them. She probably has access to a shared account but if she were to empty it and bolt with the boys, how long will it last?  And Perry has plenty of legal rights as the father.  She hasn't been documenting her bruises.  As of right now we just have one therapist who seems suspicious but in court what could she really attest to?  Celeste seemed intimidated and scared.  He admitted to getting physical once.  That's not enough to take away his rights.  And it shouldn't be honestly.  Anyone could say that about an ex-spouse.  The burden is on her to gather evidence in a systematic way and who has the capacity in the middle of such a relationship?  I see her trying.  Trying really hard to figure out a way.  Plus I'm not a mother, but I imagine the first four or five years with twins must be exhausting.  Just physically and mentally exhausting.  

Also, although we know Celeste had a great career as a high-powered lawyer six years ago and that she is still excellent (as evidenced by the scene about the play with the mayor), the fact remains that Celeste is a middle-aged woman who left the workforce for a significant amount of time. She also apparently moved to Monterrey for Perry, so wherever she was a star lawyer is some place else rather than the town she's in now. Even if she's beautiful, botoxed, and youthful, she's still going to be a single, middle-aged working mom to two children who she took years off of her career to stay home with.  Even though she has a nanny and resources, the sad truth is that many employers might be hesitant to hire her because she's a single mom (who has a would-be-ex who travels a lot or perhaps would be cut out of the children's lives by the courts given the spousal abuse) who might have to leave work to take care of a sick child, if the nanny calls in sick, if the kids have a special school event, etc. She might not be able to stay as late at night or work on cases into the night.  She might decide she misses being home with the kids and quit (unlikely, but I can see an employer who saw her give up her highly-successful career for the kids be weary she might do it again). There's also a gap on her resume of six years that other successful lawyers - particularly young, childless women as well as many men don't have and Celeste would be competing with that. Regaining a career that would allow her and her kids to live in a manner they're accustomed to (let's just say for a moment Perry can't be counted on to pay support or ends up in jail for abusing his next romantic partner, etc...those are real possibilities Celeste would have to prepare for) is much easier said than done. This is one of the biggest hurdles I've witnessed my friends who have quit their successful, professional-level jobs to be SAHMs have, regardless of the pre-baby success they've had. It's hard to get back to that level and make up for those years.  My guess is Celeste knows this all too well. (And so does, Perry and that's why he's "encouraged" her staying home for so many years....it keeps her more dependent on him.)

 

I love Nicole Kidman but her accent in this is driving me mad. I wish the backstory for Celeste somehow alluded to her spending some of her time growing up in Australia or something because at times her accent is some weird mix of Australian & American. The crazy thing is that I've heard Nicole do American accents in plenty of other films and never noticed an issue - her American accent was fine in those. Why now is she is doing such a weird accent? It's crazy because I know she can do better. I'd say maybe she doesn't even care but I think the rest of her acting - particularly her subtle acting with her eyes and face when she's on edge around her husband - is great, so I'm really at a loss.

Shailene's voice takes me out of it when she talks. I think he acting as far as anxiety/anger is great. She's good with the more physical acting and immediate distress/fear - when she's running or when she's screaming for example, or when she was terrified that Ziggy had hurt Amabelle in the first episode. It's something about her voice when she is having "regular" conversations with the other characters that make me feel like she's just reading lines somehow. It's like she's awesome with anxiety and fear but not so great with conversations with other adults. I hope that makes sense. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[susannot]

18 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

 I am glad that some people do not have a frame of reference for this in a way.  I just wish they wouldn't comment lol.  .

People who post comments showing that they lack a frame of reference for this need to be educated.  I am being educated.

[meep.meep]

22 hours ago, iggysaurus said:

Do we have any good reason to assume that whoever raped Jane is another one of the main male characters? Did that incident even take place in Monterey? I keep seeing people speculating about who it will turn out to be, but my initial assumption was that this was a totally separate incident that happened to Jane in the past before she moved to Monterey, and that its purpose in storyline is just to give Jane a back story and illustrate the difficulty she has with raising Ziggy alone and fitting into the new town. In real life it would be very unlikely that she would just happen to become friends with the wife of the man who raped her 6 years ago when she was living somewhere else.  I realize that unrealistic twists happen all the time in TV shows but it doesn't necessarily mean this show will handle it that way. Maybe Jane's rapist really is just some random guy, not an important member of the present-day cast. Seems kind of like it would be a cheap contrivance to have it be like "....and by sheer coincidence, it turns out that the mysterious man who raped Jane all those years ago is the same man who is currently the abusive husband of one of Jane's friends in her new town!" or whatever.  I could totally be wrong though.  I'm reading the book so maybe I'll find out soon.

I think we do.  Madeline was really affected by what Jane told her.  To me, it looked like a lot more than just sympathy for someone who had a horrific experience.  I think that the words the rapist used were words she was familiar with.  Presumably, she's heard them from someone she herself has had sex with.  So that makes it Nathan, Ed, or the theater guy.

That would explain why she's so gung ho to "find" the guy for Jane.

And, if it's Nathan or Ed, then one of the other kids is related to Ziggy.

[mochamajesty]

14 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Also, although we know Celeste had a great career as a high-powered lawyer six years ago and that she is still excellent (as evidenced by the scene about the play with the mayor), the fact remains that Celeste is a middle-aged woman who left the workforce for a significant amount of time. She also apparently moved to Monterrey for Perry, so wherever she was a star lawyer is some place else rather than the town she's in now. Even if she's beautiful, botoxed, and youthful, she's still going to be a single, middle-aged working mom to two children who she took years off of her career to stay home with.  Even though she has a nanny and resources, the sad truth is that many employers might be hesitant to hire her because she's a single mom (who has a would-be-ex who travels a lot or perhaps would be cut out of the children's lives by the courts given the spousal abuse) who might have to leave work to take care of a sick child, if the nanny calls in sick, if the kids have a special school event, etc. She might not be able to stay as late at night or work on cases into the night.  She might decide she misses being home with the kids and quit (unlikely, but I can see an employer who saw her give up her highly-successful career for the kids be weary she might do it again). There's also a gap on her resume of six years that other successful lawyers - particularly young, childless women as well as many men don't have and Celeste would be competing with that. Regaining a career that would allow her and her kids to live in a manner they're accustomed to (let's just say for a moment Perry can't be counted on to pay support or ends up in jail for abusing his next romantic partner, etc...those are real possibilities Celeste would have to prepare for) is much easier said than done. This is one of the biggest hurdles I've witnessed my friends who have quit their successful, professional-level jobs to be SAHMs have, regardless of the pre-baby success they've had. It's hard to get back to that level and make up for those years.

 

I love Nicole Kidman but her accent in this is driving me mad. I wish the backstory for Celeste somehow alluded to her spending some of her time growing up in Australia or something because at times her accent is some weird mix of Australian & American. The crazy thing is that I've heard Nicole do American accents in plenty of other films and never noticed an issue - her American accent was fine in those. Why now is she is doing such a weird accent? It's crazy because I know she can do better. I'd say maybe she doesn't even care but I think the rest of her acting - particularly her subtle acting with her eyes and face when she's on edge around her husband - are great, so I'm really at a loss.

Shailene's voice takes me out of it when she talks. I think he acting as far as anxiety/anger is great. She's good with the more physical acting and immediate distress/fear - when she's running or when she's screaming for example, or when she was terrified that Ziggy had hurt Amabelle in the first episode. It's something about her voice when she is having "regular" conversations with the other characters that make me feel like she's just reading lines somehow. It's like she's awesome with anxiety and fear but not so great with conversations with other adults. I hope that makes sense. 

Celeste seems as if she had a reputation as a 'big shot', although I am not sure how that would hold up after a lengthy absence.

I also wonder if her self-esteem will take a hit due to her home life - which makes it harder to return to the workforce.   It doesn't seem so, if that scene in the car after the meeting is any indication.

Edited March 14, 2017 by mochamajesty
clarity

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, susannot said:

People who post comments showing that they lack a frame of reference for this need to be educated.  I am being educated.

With replies like "I wish people who didn't have my exact frame of reference wouldn't comment" and "I don't know whether to laugh or cry" (at their ignorance), I'm surprised anyone is willing to still ask or say anything about abuse in this forum at all.  

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

I noticed it last night when I watched again. She made it seem like they were in a hurry for the kids but you could tell she was getting the hell out of there before he did something. 

Yeah, that was truly awful.  I wonder how much the kids saw.

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

           I haven't read the book but here is my prediction. Sorry if others have posted it before me. Not meant to step on toes. I think it's one or both of the twins. As 'hands on' as Perry seems with his wife, I'm sure that the kids have heard or seen something of the abuse/bullying. When children live in a home with that happening without outside consequences they believe it to be normal. They could be hurting Amabelle and bullying Ziggy into keeping his mouth shut and accepting the blame. Regardless they say abuse comes in circles/cycles. Those boys will not make the best boyfriends/husbands in their adult life. They regard the mistreatment of women as normal and their role model is an abuser. If they have seen something their father could even have scared them silly into keeping their mouths shut or lying, if necessary, to protect his own butt. Celeste should have left her husband if only to break the cycle and not allow her boys to be involved. She's an attorney and could easily adjust and make it own her own. It's a shame how many women stay with their abusers. Just sad. 

I keep thinking that the twins are too obvious, but we don 't have any other suspects. 

[QuinnM]

Quote

I keep thinking that the twins are too obvious, but we don 't have any other suspects. 

I'm going with Choloe.  I had that thought when the psychologist was discussing what behaviors a bully would have to Jane.  I jsut thought, wow it might be Choloe.  So for the sake of keeping this interesting - I'm going with Choloe.  Team Choloe for the bully!  JK

So she is being raised by a woman that has active nasty stuff going on with people.  She has opportunity.  And it might be sexist but I see a girl biting more than I see a boy.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I think it's good people are learning that domestic violence can happen even to wealthy, educated women (and men).  I was surprised so many people didn't realize it and didn't realize how abusers work to isolate, gas light, cut victims off from friends/family/resources. I think what some people are seeing is shock that people are hesitant to believe this happens among wealthy, educated people and that in 2017, people still question why a victim doesn't just leave. I don't think it's animosity, it's shock....and that doesn't come across well in non-verbal exchanges (like a forum). I am glad we are all learning. The more you know, learning is power, and all that....

I think that it's awesome that this show is providing a starting point for a discussion in which people can learn about domestic abuse, that it can happen to anyone, and that leaving isn't easy (even when educated & rich).  Good for HBO for making this show (and for the book's author for writing about it). Good for Nicole Kidman for choosing this part, getting the nuances down pat (accent weirdness aside), acting it so brilliantly, & for producing a show that presents wealthy person as a victim of something that many people apparently have been led to believe only happen in lower-socio-economic circles. I am grateful we all are having this discussion. So I am thankful for the show (and for the book on which it is based).

[mochamajesty]

31 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I'm going with Choloe.  I had that thought when the psychologist was discussing what behaviors a bully would have to Jane.  I jsut thought, wow it might be Choloe.  So for the sake of keeping this interesting - I'm going with Choloe.  Team Choloe for the bully!  JK

So she is being raised by a woman that has active nasty stuff going on with people.  She has opportunity.  And it might be sexist but I see a girl biting more than I see a boy.

Chloe, as in Madeline's daughter?  I forgot about her lol.

I don't see it, but hey, I may be totally wrong. 

And I doubt that she has the strength to make the mark that we saw on Amabella's neck.  I doubt any of those kids could do it.

Edited March 14, 2017 by mochamajesty
It's not worth it.

[scrb]

Let me couch it this way.

If Perry continues to be violent, want to start arguments if she works or hangs out too much with her friends, should she leave him by the end of this mini series?

That's assuming they're not involved in the murder mystery directly.

No matter how difficult it would be emotionally for her, it would be hard to feel sympathy for her if she continues to put up with it.

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I think it's good people are learning that domestic violence can happen even to wealthy, educated women (and men).  I was surprised so many people didn't realize it and didn't realize how abusers work to isolate, gas light, cut victims off from friends/family/resources. I think what some people are seeing is shock that people are hesitant to believe this happens among wealthy, educated people and that in 2017, people still question why a victim doesn't just leave. I don't think it's animosity, it's shock....and that doesn't come across well in non-verbal exchanges (like a forum). I am glad we are all learning. The more you know, learning is power, and all that....

I think that it's awesome that this show is providing a starting point for a discussion in which people can learn about domestic abuse, that it can happen to anyone, and that leaving isn't easy (even when educated & rich).  Good for HBO for making this show (and for the book's author for writing about it). Good for Nicole Kidman for choosing this part, getting the nuances down pat (accent weirdness aside), acting it so brilliantly, & for producing a show that presents wealthy person as a victim of something that many people apparently have been led to believe only happen in lower-socio-economic circles. I am grateful we all are having this discussion. So I am thankful for the show (and for the book on which it is based).

 

Thanks for saying this better than I could.

Edited March 14, 2017 by mochamajesty
To placate.

[Llywela]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

Let me couch it this way.

If Perry continues to be violent, want to start arguments if she works or hangs out too much with her friends, should she leave him by the end of this mini series?

In the narrative sense that her story has to be leading somewhere and reach a point of resolution within the confines of a seven-episode series, then yes, it seems safe to assume that we will see her leaving him by the end of the show. Unless either one of them ends up dead, of course.

If she were a real person, rather than a fictional character whose life is played out within a tightly structured narrative, there would be no such guarantees. Victims sometimes stay with their abusers for many years, for a myriad of different reasons.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I'd say maybe she doesn't even care but I think the rest of her acting - particularly her subtle acting with her eyes and face when she's on edge around her husband - is great, so I'm really at a loss.

I wonder if she has a harder time keeping up the accent when she is doing the more subtle acting required of a role like Celeste. Because her non-verbal acting on this show is outstanding. I feel her uncertainty, her fear is palpable at times, and as you say, we've seen her capable of doing an American accent. So I have only two theories, 1) she created a backstory for Celeste where she grew up in Australia as an homage to the books origins or 2) she is focusing more on the physical acting than the accent. If it is 2, I support her choice because other than the accent (which I barely recognize because I'm used to her having an accent) I think she'd doing a wonderful job.

As for where Celeste ends at the end of this. My #1 hope is, as a widow! hahaha, but if Perry isn't the victim I hope that the show ends with her confiding the truth to either the shrink or Madeline (preferably the shrink) and beginning the process of leaving. With the twins, and all Perry's money to do everything he can to stop her, it's not going to be as easy as pack some bags and leave. So I'd rather they go the more realistic route of her just starting the process than being totally out of his grasp in the short timeframe of the show as if it were that easy. But I'm still rooting for widow. I think she'd look lovely in black, with a veil, and never having to look over her shoulder for fear he is coming after her or trying to take her boys, or trying to convince other people she's made it all up and is just unhinged and unfit as a mother. It's just not as easy as just walking away and the show has done such a beautiful job of portraying the complexity that I hope they don't just wrap it up in a pretty bow.

[Kbilly]

Quote

You're joking?  Haha.  I'd bet my condo that Adam was lipsyncing in Step Brothers.

Ms Blue Jay Yes I was joking! Hee!! I just thought it was a really bad lip synch voice for Adam Scott--too nasally. And this show seems pretty obsessive and particular about its music so that was surprising to me. It really took me out of the scene. 

[Razzberry]

Since everything happens for a reason in fiction, I wonder about the scene with Jane and Ziggy at the beach where he gets hurt.  

*trivia: that's actually Lover's Point, a good place to scuba dive but in neighboring Pacific Grove.

 

[stanleyk]

26 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Since everything happens for a reason in fiction, I wonder about the scene with Jane and Ziggy at the beach where he gets hurt.  

Ooh, good point - I wondered about that too. My initial thought was that she is going to get accused of abusing him because of some visible injury that resulted from an innocuous accident no one else witnessed - if someone thought he was being hit at home, it would reinforce the narrative by the world's worst teacher that he is prone to bullying (which would, of course, be supremely ironic if it turns out the twins are the bullies). Or it might just have been to reinforce that he is a small boy, sensitive and fragile.

Edited March 14, 2017 by stanleyk

[Mabinogia]

My thought was to show us that he really is a sweet, soft boy who isn't prone to violence. It was an odd scene though.

I did think of the idea the teacher would see the bruise and jump to OMG Ziggy's getting beat up at home! because we all know that woman takes Olympic sized leaps at the slightest hint of anything. She should go have dinner at Perry and Celeste's house. Wonder what she'd make of those two.

[J-Man]

re: Bonnie's class

IMDB has a credit for someone as "piloxing instructor," so I assume it's supposed to be a mash-up of Pilates and boxing?

[iggysaurus]

31 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

*trivia: that's actually Lover's Point, a good place to scuba dive but in neighboring Pacific Grove.

I was born in Carmel and my family lived in the Monterey area on and off through the 60s-90s. I used to go visit there all the time over the years.  Pacific Grove/Monterey are connected ... one runs into the other. In the screen shot above, there is a paved bike/walking trail that runs along what you see in the top right of the picture ... if you start there near Lovers Point and keep walking (about a mile?) you'll end up in Monterey, right by Cannery Row and the Aquarium etc.  This show is making me miss Monterey! If only the prices were still like in the 60s when my parents rented a house in PG for $65/month ... 

[mochamajesty]

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

My thought was to show us that he really is a sweet, soft boy who isn't prone to violence. It was an odd scene though.

I did think of the idea the teacher would see the bruise and jump to OMG Ziggy's getting beat up at home! because we all know that woman takes Olympic sized leaps at the slightest hint of anything. She should go have dinner at Perry and Celeste's house. Wonder what she'd make of those two.

 

I may have to re-watch I totally forgot about that scene.  But Jane bores me and if it weren't for  ChokeGate, I wouldn't even watch her scenes with Ziggy. 

I could actually picture the teacher at dinner with the Wright's, trying to get Celeste to admit to abuse at the dinner table.  LOL

2 minutes ago, J-Man said:

re: Bonnie's class

IMDB has a credit for someone as "piloxing instructor," so I assume it's supposed to be a mash-up of Pilates and boxing?

 

That sounds like fun. 

It's really a thing:

https://piloxing.com/

[nara]

23 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I did think of the idea the teacher would see the bruise and jump to OMG Ziggy's getting beat up at home! because we all know that woman takes Olympic sized leaps at the slightest hint of anything. She should go have dinner at Perry and Celeste's house. Wonder what she'd make of those two.

She would be making googly eyes at Perry and thinking how lucky Celeste is.

[lmsweb]

I may have to go and watch some clips of Nicole Kidman in other roles with an American accent, but I think, unless she's playing an American with a regional accent (Cold Mountain), she's always struggled with a "generic" American accent.  Days of Thunder they didn't even bother trying to have her pretend to be American. Practical Magic she has a hint of an accent, same with To Die For. Don't get me wrong, I love Nicole Kidman. I tend to fan wave that sort of thing off...I have friends who were born and raised Canadian, yet have a tiny touch of an accent (often unidentifiable) because of immigrant grandparents/parents. I'm thinking I may pull out my DVD of Dead Calm this weekend, it's been years since I watched it, but it's actually one of my favourite rainy day movies, and Nicole Kidman is incredible in it.

As for why women don't leave an abuser right away, just remember that it wasn't all that long ago that women were considered property (and still are in parts of the world, including various cultural and religious circles here in North America). Women are still murdered in honour killings by their families. We all like to think that the world is enlightened and progressive and we've moved past the days where men could beat their wives with impunity. The reality is very different. We don't know anything about Celeste's background or childhood or what kind of home she was raised, nor, for that matter, Perry's own upbringing. This behaviour may have been something that one or both grew up with. I don't think there is ever any black and white answer to "why doesn't she leave him".

[Razzberry]

48 minutes ago, iggysaurus said:

This show is making me miss Monterey! If only the prices were still like in the 60s when my parents rented a house in PG for $65/month ...

I know, it's crazy.   Jane's one bedroom bungalow on that lovely tree-lined street would probably rent for $2,500 per mo. at least.

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I know, it's crazy.   Jane's one bedroom bungalow on that lovely tree-lined street would probably rent for $2,500 per mo. at least.

I think an article in the media thread said it was worth $520k.  And that they didn't film the interiors there because it didn't come off well or something, so they built sets with that floor plan.  But they liked the trees so used the exterior.  Oh, and it's in Pasadena so it'd probably be worth much more in Monterey, right?  

Edited March 14, 2017 by Guest

[JBC344]

I don't know why Celeste just couldn't be Austrailian.  It would be a nod to the origin of the book, as well as lend to Celeste's backstory of being isolated from where she came from.  I never understand why characters who don't need to be American have to be.  It's like the concept of "foreigners" or those who have accents just doesn't exist.  Very weird.

[Razzberry]

21 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Oh, and it's in Pasadena so it'd probably be worth much more in Monterey, right?  

I don't know,  Pasadena is pretty posh in general.  I don't think of Monterey as being on that level, but it has the ocean going for it.   I will now go down the Zillow rabbit-hole and look for comps. ;)

[txhorns79]

Quote

I did think of the idea the teacher would see the bruise and jump to OMG Ziggy's getting beat up at home! because we all know that woman takes Olympic sized leaps at the slightest hint of anything. She should go have dinner at Perry and Celeste's house. Wonder what she'd make of those two.

That teacher makes me just want to scream.  I just wanted Jane to be like: "So what else did you divine about my son and Amabella based on this look you said he gave her?"  The fact that she felt comfortable recommending that Ziggy speak to a counselor, all based on her fervid imagination, was just frustrating. 

As to why Celeste might not just pack up and leave Perry, I see it as a combination of fear and guilt.  I mean, Perry is frightening.  If he's willing to nearly strangle her based on her having *gasp* a second meeting to discuss the play, God knows what he would do if he came home and she and the kids were gone.  He already seems to be escalating, so I can imagine Celeste is terrified to rock the boat.