S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[Razzberry]

I thought it was hilarious the way Maddy was telling it to Celeste.  Who knows,  Ed might have done something worse to cause her to turn to what's his name. 

[Cardie]

43 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

am so impressed at how well Perry's abuse of Celeste is crafted. He's my Number 1 suspect for Jane's rape as a result. I also think one of the twins is hurting Amabella and they learned it from Perry. 

Unless they have some amazing twist up their sleeves, it does look like this is the case.

[Auntie Anxiety]

16 minutes ago, Cardie said:

am so impressed at how well Perry's abuse of Celeste is crafted. He's my Number 1 suspect for Jane's rape as a result.

It's no mistake that the guy who Madeline found on the computer looks very similar to Perry. So I guess at some point Jane hears his voice at the Audrey & Elvis party and puts two and two together. Or maybe not.

[tongueincheek]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I thought it was hilarious the way Maddy was telling it to Celeste.  Who knows,  Ed might have done something worse to cause her to turn to what's his name. 

Celeste's reactions to Maddy throughout that entire scene were brilliant. I want gifs. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by tongueincheek

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[scrb]

Perry is concerned about Celeste having a lot of stress if she's working again.

As if his regular physical assaults is good for her stress levels.

So they have this beautiful walk-in closet which looks like a high-end dept. store.  But then they go out to the bedroom and it looks claustrophobic?  Seemed like the far wall wasn't that much further away from the foot of the bed.

[mochamajesty]

5 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Agreed 100%. He's a real cutie and has a shy sweetness to him and just seems like a real kid. Child actors can be hit or miss, but they really nailed Ziggy's casting.

 

I normally hate child characters (Sally Draper, the Brody kids, the Scavo kids) as I feel that they slow down the action on a show. And I just normally do not care about the child characters or what happens to them.

This show?  I feel really badly for Ziggy and I want to know who choked Amabella. I am invested, which is a testimony to these kids' acting.

5 hours ago, Saint76 said:

Is there any chance that Perry is Ziggys Dad?  I don't think Perry and Jane have met face to face?  If I am someone tell me I am wrong but it could be Perry that raped Jane?   She said she needed to hear his voice....... Just a thought.  I am probably wrong and it is the Saxon dude but Perry could have used an alias.  

1

Did Celeste see the photo? I think she did, but she either ignored the resemblance or is in denial.  Jane said she met him online? I can't remember.

Perry is too obvious, but I can't think of another husband who has the same build as the flashback.

I am on the "Dislike Jane' train as well. I am stumped by the identity of her attacker. I also want to see Ziggy exonerated.  That is the only reason I do not FF through her scenes.

I was upset at how people just don't seem to 'get' Perry's tactics. But I have to remind myself that if abuser's tactics were easy to spot, they wouldn't work.  Also, AS is so good he fooled half of America last week with the therapy session.  He is holding his own with some huge names on this show.  I wonder where this will lead for him.

[mojoween]

I hope the director got over his obsession with Jane's flashbacks because they're getting old and don't advance the story.

Also, unless you're at a police station, most gun ranges don't allow you to use people targets.

I'm not here for Jane.  Let's get on with it.

Edited March 13, 2017 by mojoween

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure we're in for 3 more hours of Jane's flashbacks and Celeste and Perry fighting and having sex.  I heard this was originally conceived of as a movie.  I think that would've been better.  

[Ina123]

I still like Ed. He wasn't doing anything creepy. Just being a man. I thought the way he comforted Maddie was sweet.

I thought the flashback of Ziggy choking someone was Jane...as in "like his father".

Perry even wears a wife-beater undershirt. I bet that was a deliberate wardrobe decision.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ina123

[NutMeg]

7 hours ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

Yeah, well, I know two women who were very much Nicole's character.

The first one was 6 month away from getting her degree as a chemical engineer, met a guy she fell head over heals for, moved to his country, abandoned her studies, had a baby, was cheated on, then physically abused, and never wanted to reach out to her family because, in her words, "they had been so proud of her, and she would have been so ashamed to let them know what have become of her". (I met this lady when she was in her late 60s, had been a widow for a while, and had recently embarked on a new relationship - well, even more, they married very quickly - that was turning emotionally abusive. We met on a plane, long haul, 12 or 13 hours.)

Next one, someone I knew through work. Not a lawyer but an investment banker, and very good at her job. She got married to an extremely handsome guy who was trying to find himself, funded his business, was sent overseas for her job and we reconnected because I was also an expat. She had a kid, then took a leave of absence and moved to another country to cut costs, and I stopped hearing from her. Sixteen year later (just recently, actually), I met her again. She's separated and told me horrible tales of emotional abuse and a few incidents of physical ones (she may have undershared seeing my horrified look). In essence, that man isolated her from all the people close to her (he tolerated childhood friends because, due to the expatriation, she only saw them once a year, and then he was the most loving, attentive husband), convinced her that she was psychologically fragile and when she became a stay at home mom started cruising dating sites and hooking up with random strangers. As she sees it after they finally "honestly" talked, he was always afraid that she would leave her and once she did everything to reassure him she was not he started doing all he could for it to happen. I have no idea how far the physical violence went but I'm sure the emotional one was tremendous. And believe me, knowing her from work, where she was incisive, always spot on and never took crap, I'd never have expected her to find herself in an abusive relationship.

I'm sorry if this is off topic, just replying to a post and not sure if there is a "social issue" topic".

In my next post, I promise to be more about the episode. 

[nara]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

Did Celeste see the photo? I think she did, but she either ignored the resemblance or is in denial.  Jane said she met him online? I can't remember.

Perry is too obvious, but I can't think of another husband who has the same build as the flashback.

I don't think Celeste has any reason to think Perry is the rapist. In her mind those crimes are unconnected.  

Nathan is the only other father remotely close in appearance.  Ed and Renata's husband are much shorter.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, stanleyk said:

First, having a public or professional appearance of being "loud, ballsy and aggressive" does not preclude being in an abusive relationship at home; as mochamajesty points out, it's hard to know what goes on behind closed doors. I'm sure Celeste's friends would never believe she's being abused. Second, I'm also a lawyer and a woman, and saying all successful women lawyers are a certain type is a very broad (and based on my experience, not particularly accurate) generalization. Even if one's job were predictive of one's likelihood of being abused, there is no one type of personality for women lawyers.

ITA - there's no one profession or type of person who has never been [fill in the blank]. As easy as it is to stereotype, in real life, all kinds of things happen to all kinds of people.
 

11 hours ago, kjwillis93 said:

As for Ed, I really do feel as though all of this "creepy" behavior is a major red herring. I'm not sure he's behind the murder-mystery.

While I agree that this "I like sweaty women" comment came off as totally inappropriate, I also felt like it was along the lines of Ross on Friends telling the pizza delivery girl "I like little boys" (which turned out to be because earlier he overheard her telling Chandler that she didn't like her new haircut because she thought it made her look like a little boy). It came off as an awkward guy trying to make topical small talk and failing miserably. I'm not trying to say it's okay for him to say things like that, but as someone who has said some really regrettable things to acquaintances, I thought I recognized that "let me try to say something that shows I'm making an effort to talk about things that are related to you" and then promptly inserting foot into mouth. As for him checking out the other woman who entered the studio as he was leaving, I'm a straight female and if someone with a nice ass walks by, I turn around too. I mean, I try not to be as obvious as Ed was, but a nice ass is a nice ass!

11 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I read the book years ago and don't remember much (don't worry, I'd never spoil it) but

  Hide contents

I don't remember Madeline being a cheater. Maybe I blocked it out, or it was a show addition.

The only actress not doing anything for me is Shailene Woodley. She seems so blank and not on purpose.

I, too, read the book ages ago and didn't remember the details (even as I was watching the pilot, I didn't remember who got murdered and who did it), but I'm 99% sure that

Spoiler

Madeline never slept with the theater guy or cheated on Ed in any way. In fact, I don't recall her job at the theater being much more than something that was briefly mentioned, let alone a big fight with the mayor about what show was being done.

I agree that Shailene is the only one not at the same level as everyone else. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that her blank face is an acting choice and she's trying to mask Jane's PTSD, but she just seems like she's sleepwalking through this role. I haven't seen anything else that she's in so I have no idea is this how she seems in all of her roles or what.

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've seen enough of Celeste and Perry having sex.  Seriously, what is the obsession?  Is it a 50 shades thing?

Sex is part of their fucked up relationship. For him, it's another part of controlling her. For her, it's rationalizing the abuse and their relationship as passionate. She tells herself that it's mutual and consensual because sometimes the sex IS consensual. Telling herself that having a quickie in the closet a few episodes ago is part of making up because it means he's sorry and he finds her sexy is her way of trying to make it normal.

What the hell kind of yoga class does Bonnie teach? I've mostly done Bikram yoga so I'm too busy trying not to die of heat stroke to be doing whip it, upper cut, and serve the platter and whatever else she was doing in class. Zoe Kravitz looks almost exactly the same as she did when she was a teenager so it always seems so wrong that she's married to Amanda Clarke's father, who is clearly much older. As for Nathan, the more we see of him, I think the better off Madeline is without him. No, Nathan, being a husband isn't going along with whatever fucked up thing your wife wants. If that's your definition of being a husband, then you keep marrying the wrong people.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when the therapist said Ziggy thinks his father might be Darth Vader.

[Gem 10]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've seen enough of Celeste and Perry having sex.  Seriously, what is the obsession?  Is it a 50 shades thing?  They're not hot or interesting to me.  I don't care about the abuse plot.  Neither actor is selling it for me.

And Kidman seems to be barely trying to do an American dialect anymore.  And I never notice native dialects.  And she was looking a bit joker-ish in that scene in the sun.  

I did find Ed skeevy leering at the yoga(?) class and his following comments.  And I see why Maddie is less than turned on.  

Nathan still doesn't bother me.  I think he's trying to overcompensate for lost time with Abby.  And he's tired of catering to the whims of nutty moms.  

I'm glad I have the book on hold from the library because I'm getting bored with this and don't want to wait 3 more weeks or whatever it is to find out what happened.  At this point, I would be kind of ok with all the adults getting killed on those stairs and the kids doing a season 2 on their own.

Me too.  Going to read all day until the eyeballs fall out so I can finish the book.  Dying to know also.

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've seen enough of Celeste and Perry having sex.  Seriously, what is the obsession?  Is it a 50 shades thing?  They're not hot or interesting to me.  I don't care about the abuse plot.  Neither actor is selling it for me.

And Kidman seems to be barely trying to do an American dialect anymore.  And I never notice native dialects.  And she was looking a bit joker-ish in that scene in the sun.  

I did find Ed skeevy leering at the yoga(?) class and his following comments.  And I see why Maddie is less than turned on.  

Nathan still doesn't bother me.  I think he's trying to overcompensate for lost time with Abby.  And he's tired of catering to the whims of nutty moms.  

I'm glad I have the book on hold from the library because I'm getting bored with this and don't want to wait 3 more weeks or whatever it is to find out what happened.  At this point, I would be kind of ok with all the adults getting killed on those stairs and the kids doing a season 2 on their own.

Me too.  Going to read all day until the eyeballs fall out so I can finish the book.  Dying to know also.

[Ina123]

Yup. I got tired of waiting. Read the book in one day on Saturday.

[Llywela]

23 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I, too, read the book ages ago and didn't remember the details (even as I was watching the pilot, I didn't remember who got murdered and who did it), but I'm 99% sure that

  Hide contents

Madeline never slept with the theater guy or cheated on Ed in any way. In fact, I don't recall her job at the theater being much more than something that was briefly mentioned, let alone a big fight with the mayor about what show was being done.

 

Will come back with more comments on the episode later, but I've seen a few comments in episode threads hinting at changes from the book, which I've not read myself, but I'm pretty sure I saw something in an article about the show which said they've chosen to make a few specific changes from the source material so that there will be surprises for everyone, book readers and non-book readers alike - to keep it fresh for all and to keep everyone guessing even if they think they already know the story well, was the gist. I remember thinking at the time that surely in a story about a murder, there are strict limits to how much can be changed, because so much of the detail is built-in, as it were - like, if you change too much, then the whole plot falls apart, because the motivations and whatnot no longer track. So I've been presuming that any changes made are superficial, red herrings only. I guess when it's all over I might wander into a book thread to find out if the changes made were more fundamental than I presumed!

[nara]

33 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What the hell kind of yoga class does Bonnie teach? I've mostly done Bikram yoga so I'm too busy trying not to die of heat stroke to be doing whip it, upper cut, and serve the platter and whatever else she was doing in class.

LOL. Violent acts like uppercuts and whipping things are not typical yoga poses.  She's created some sort of hybrid.  

[Ina123]

6 minutes ago, nara said:

LOL. Violent acts like uppercuts and whipping things are not typical yoga poses.  She's created some sort of hybrid.  

I thought that was odd, too. All that reference to violence and she's supposed to be representing a 60's peacenik.

[mochamajesty]

Hmm.. hybrid classes are the rage and have been for several years. Whether it's weights with cardio, yoga with something else, etc.

I find it even more odd now that Bonnie was in Madeline's class.  If she is teaching hybrid workouts it stands to reason that she has the basics down.   I don't buy the fact that she is looking for a new style or whatever reason someone gave for her attendance.  Madeline's class looked pretty basic to me.

[Lucelu]

I have to rewatch but I felt like when Celeste was at the therapist's office and saying "I am not afraid" -- she repeated it and it seemed like she was remembering who she was (before becoming the woman manipulated by beatings and "passion") which was reinforced by her putting her lawyer suit back on. She was kind of ... convincing herself I think. 

I actually enjoyed Jane's performance this episode. Her ideations of killing her rapist, I feel like she runs that entire night over and over in her head imagining different scenarios. I wonder if running off a cliff is a metaphor for her... going off the deep end. You know that saying that neurotics build castles in the air... and psychotics live in them-- that is what it made me think of. Out of all the damaged people in this show, I feel like she needs intervention the most.

That first grade teacher needs to be fired. 

I loved that the child psychologist affirmed what we all felt about Ziggy. I bet he is getting teased/bullied about who his father is or not having one.

I was pretty surprised by Madeline's interaction / kiss with her boss (he is her boss right?). I wonder if her dalliance with him occurred when Ed was unavailable a lot due to work because Madeline seems to me to need a lot of attention and validation which is why she is always stirring up the shit. I thought Ed's Elvis serenade was very sweet and romantic. I too wish Nathan would move. No Renata this week.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Renata was in the scene with the mayor and the town council in which Celeste was the lawyer arguing for Avenue Q.

[mochamajesty]

8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

That's a terrific observation.  Even though it's a public school, those parents have enough money and influence to pressure the school.

Last week I thought that some of the choices hinted at something going on between Ed and Abigail but none of the choices this week made me think this.  That's not to say I've disregarded my opinions of last week but this week's show of being attracted to adult women isn't the same thing as being attracted to teenagers.  Ed was inappropriate in what he said to Bonnie but I'm not ready to diagnose him as a total creeper yet.  It was a cringe inducing moment but when he looked at the other woman...eh. I'm a bit torn on that moment.  She didn't see it and checking out people does happen.

 

When I was a teen, men ogled me all the time.   Physically, I actually do not see that much of a difference between adult women and 16 year -olds. Especially in todays over-sexed world.   If she were six, yeah.  Sixteen?  From the back or the side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

18 minutes ago, Lucelu said:

 

That first grade teacher needs to be fired. 

I loved that the child psychologist affirmed what we all felt about Ziggy. I bet he is getting teased/bullied about who his father is or not having one.

 

Yeah, and it may have started due to that damn therapist's family tree project. Ugh.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I liked Ed telling Madeline that he was thinking about doing a sit-up and wanted to consult Bonnie first.  

Did I hear Joseph pronounce Madeline "Madeleen"?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

hybrid classes are the rage and have been for several years. Whether it's weights with cardio, yoga with something else

My favorite was on The O.C. when Kirsten talked about going to yogalates class and Sandy told her, 'You just like saying yogalates."

Quote

Madeline's interaction / kiss with her boss (he is her boss right?)

He is the director of the play. She does marketing for the theater as a part time job so technically he isn't her boss as they've both been hired by the theater. They would obviously have interaction regarding Avenue Q, but he isn't her supervisor.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Now I have something to like about Nicole's performance, because this was a really good episode for her.

I really like Reese/Maddie, but I hate that they made her a cheater.  That extremely sucks.  Maybe I would have understood her kissing the director back in that one instance, but then to reveal that they've had sex several times or whatever it was.  Goodness. That makes me so sad.  They set up Maddie as being so sympathetic over what Nathan did to her in the past, and this just makes everything so cloudy, because she's hurting Ed and potentially Chloe who is so young.  And I wonder if Abigail suspects things about her mother's affair, too.  Sigh.

To the posters who enjoyed the reveal about Maddie and Celeste finding being a mother not being enough for them, there is this great new Canadian sitcom called "Workin Moms" created by the daughter of Ivan Reitman.  I've been really enjoying it. 

I wasn't loving Shailene at first, but she won me over a bit in this episode.  

Nathan might be hot but his personality is so unattractive.  I don't get it at all.  I don't get Ed either, but at least he doesn't seem like a dickhead.  

That meeting with the Mayor was so good.  He seems like such a manipulative cheeseball and Renata was just fakely giggling all over him; they were both so schmoozey and annoying.

The teacher makes me so angry.  What an incompetent tool.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, nara said:

 It's possible that Ed is just horny from not being able to have sex with his wife.  That may be leading to some inappropriate stares and comments, but may not be indicative of bigger issues.  (I'm so confused about him)

10 hours ago, stanleyk said:

I'm sticking with my opinion that Ed is not creepy. He's awkward, sure. He's a dork and says dorky things. It's possible my view is too colored by Parks and Rec-version Adam Scott, but I don't see anything creepy about him. And even if he's taking a look at sweaty women doing yoga...that's a far cry from molesting his step-daughter. Of course, I may eat my words, but I'm not going to believe he's behind anything nefarious until I'm forced to.

Yep, I'm in this camp. Ed is not a nefarious predator; he's just a nerdy, awkward guy who is getting a little lonely and weird because his wife is completely uninterested in him sexually.  He seems like a good dad and a good husband who unfortunately married someone that just doesn't feel for him the way he does for her. 

Speaking of, Maddie is kind of an asshole, huh? Yet somehow she remains extremely likable. She's been very unfair to Ed. In particular, their conversation out on the beach, and her reaction to his passionate plea not to be her second choice, plays really differently knowing what we do now. She doesn't seem to take him or his feelings seriously. 

Apologies for not quoting, but I agree with whoever said upthread that it's clearly Bonnie driving Nathan's attempts to maintain a relationship with Abigail. Every week he's revealed to be more of a narcissistic selfish prick; I'm starting to wonder what Bonnie sees in him.

I'm now firmly convinced that Ziggy is not the one hurting Amabella. There's something going on there that we don't know about yet. And that teacher is incredibly out of line. 

[humbleopinion]

The collective smugness of all the main characters save Jane, Ziggy, Chloe, Amabella wants me see the rest jump off Jane's cliff.

[taragel]

I was most surprised that, given how many flashbacks/how much she dwells on it, Jane didn't seem to know for sure if that guy on the computer was her rapist. Perhaps that's part of what's traumatizing her too, though, that she can't really remember all the details or was too drunk to remember his face or whatever. 

That teacher is not only the worst at handling everything, but I can't quite figure out her motivation. Is someone spurring her on or does she really actually mean well? Either way, I just can't see any teacher handling things this way, especially not in a school like that.

Kudos to whoever called in last week's thread that Joseph was having an affair with and may possibly be stalking Maddie/might kill Ed. I didn't see that coming at all.

I think the Celeste/Perry stuff is really well done in its...insidiousness. There are so many things that make people question whether it's really abuse in real life and they're doing a fantastic job getting those nuances across in the show/with the characters as well. 

[Juliegirlj]

Nathan's facade has dropped and he seems like quite an angry man, and Bonnie said something like "we all have baggage/damage" is making me suspect Nathan as Jane's rapist. That yoga class seemed more like a self defense class- another hint that perhaps Bonnie intuitively suspects Nathan has a dark side. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA - there's no one profession or type of person who has never been [fill in the blank]. As easy as it is to stereotype, in real life, all kinds of things happen to all kinds of people.
 

While I agree that this "I like sweaty women" comment came off as totally inappropriate, I also felt like it was along the lines of Ross on Friends telling the pizza delivery girl "I like little boys" (which turned out to be because earlier he overheard her telling Chandler that she didn't like her new haircut because she thought it made her look like a little boy). It came off as an awkward guy trying to make topical small talk and failing miserably. I'm not trying to say it's okay for him to say things like that, but as someone who has said some really regrettable things to acquaintances, I thought I recognized that "let me try to say something that shows I'm making an effort to talk about things that are related to you" and then promptly inserting foot into mouth. As for him checking out the other woman who entered the studio as he was leaving, I'm a straight female and if someone with a nice ass walks by, I turn around too. I mean, I try not to be as obvious as Ed was, but a nice ass is a nice ass!

I, too, read the book ages ago and didn't remember the details (even as I was watching the pilot, I didn't remember who got murdered and who did it), but I'm 99% sure that

  Reveal hidden contents

Madeline never slept with the theater guy or cheated on Ed in any way. In fact, I don't recall her job at the theater being much more than something that was briefly mentioned, let alone a big fight with the mayor about what show was being done.

I agree that Shailene is the only one not at the same level as everyone else. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that her blank face is an acting choice and she's trying to mask Jane's PTSD, but she just seems like she's sleepwalking through this role. I haven't seen anything else that she's in so I have no idea is this how she seems in all of her roles or what.

Sex is part of their fucked up relationship. For him, it's another part of controlling her. For her, it's rationalizing the abuse and their relationship as passionate. She tells herself that it's mutual and consensual because sometimes the sex IS consensual. Telling herself that having a quickie in the closet a few episodes ago is part of making up because it means he's sorry and he finds her sexy is her way of trying to make it normal.

What the hell kind of yoga class does Bonnie teach? I've mostly done Bikram yoga so I'm too busy trying not to die of heat stroke to be doing whip it, upper cut, and serve the platter and whatever else she was doing in class. Zoe Kravitz looks almost exactly the same as she did when she was a teenager so it always seems so wrong that she's married to Amanda Clarke's father, who is clearly much older. As for Nathan, the more we see of him, I think the better off Madeline is without him. No, Nathan, being a husband isn't going along with whatever fucked up thing your wife wants. If that's your definition of being a husband, then you keep marrying the wrong people.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when the therapist said Ziggy thinks his father might be Darth Vader.

I know sex is part of their fucked up relationship.  I feel like that was clear after hour one, but now we've seen it illustrated over four hours.  I just want the show to move on.  It's gratuitous now.  Or anvilicious, or both.  

I agree there's not one type of person who falls victim to domestic violence but I also think there is not one kind of abuser.  The comments like "I know abusers and they have no remorse ever" are just as weird.  Though I believe now that Perry IS going to be a mustache twirling villain without an ounce of remorse throughout the show.  

I don't think any hot yoga studio would allow a man to watch, face pressed to the glass.  You're barely dressed, soaked and in odd positions.  It's inappropriate to watch like that.  The part I didn't like about Ed's Elvis thing too was it was loud enough to wake Chloe and he acted like he didn't care.  They're all kind of odd and selfish.  

Yoga buffs practice at various studios all the time.  A lot of the owners give reciprocal privileges to other owners. 

[teddysmom]

Did it seem odd that Ziggy seemed to figure out what happened with Jane and the one night stand? Isn't it a little unusual for a 6 year old to be aware that men and women hook up for one night and then never see each other again? 

I almost wondered if Jane was dreaming that conversation. 

[BeatrixK]

11 hours ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

I can actually understand this character more, coming off the heels of a mentally/emotionally abusive relationship.  (I literally often tell people that, in a weird way, I wished my ex would have broken my arm or something -- so I could point to 'See...THIS is what he did.'

Perry is written as a classic sociopathic narcissist -- and so, given the amount of time they have been together, it's quite likely she's been a victim of slow, deliberate Narcissistic abuse.  It's gradual, it's deliberate, it's about controlling the victim, and, as an outsider, you can't imagine how someone involved doesn't see it  -- NA is done in cycles -- but, in a nutshell, the abuser love bombs, idealizes the victim, then begins the devaluing phase and the cycle repeats (That is an extreme nutshell version.)  I cannot stress how slow and incremental it is  -- so, by the time it gets to Perry's level, you have absolutely no idea how you got there, but the abuse has become the 'norm', and a skilled NARC has convinced you that 1.) you deserve it, 2.) you aren't smart enough to exist without the NARC, and 3.) you will take whatever they get, because 'no one knows him like I do...they don't understand XYZ about him.', their 'love bombing phase' makes you think THAT is the real person you 'love', so you wait for that part of the cycle to begin again, and at the point of abuse we are at watching the Perry/Celeste relationship, the abuse has become her 'norm.' 

I can tell you from personal experience, that yes -- some of the smartest, most capable people are reduced to shells of their former selves due to NA, and they aren't as keenly aware of what the abuse has done to them, so they don't get the 'impetus' to get out -- and it sucks to have to admit to yourself that you've given up your career, parts of your self, and your love to someone who never loved you to begin with and you were nothing but an object to reflect their overinflated ego.

[teddysmom]

I don't think he started the relationship beating her up.

And even the most successful brilliant women can have feelings of insecurity and unworthiness.  

I think she's the stand out in the show.  She does more acting with just a look or the way she holds herself. 

She was like two different people from the meeting to the scene in Maddy's car. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

I don't think any hot yoga studio would allow a man to watch, face pressed to the glass.  You're barely dressed, soaked and in odd positions.  It's inappropriate to watch like that.  

Off the top of my head, I can think of three yoga studios near my house where you can just watch and all three are on busy streets with a lot of cars and pedestrians. One is a Bikram/hot yoga studios where you can watch class from the sidewalk. There's a big glass window next to a busy street that looks into the studio so anyone walking by can see everyone in the class.  Another is a regular yoga class but it's the same situation (big glass wall that looks onto the street). The third one is another Bikram/hot yoga studio and there is a big glass wall on a busy street. There is a small lobby between the street and the heated yoga room, but the lobby and the yoga room are separated by a wall of glass so if you come into the lobby to ask questions (as I did before I started taking classes there), you can watch the class from the lobby. And because the two walls of glass (one facing the street and the other looking into the yoga room) are parallel, you can stand on the sidewalk and see the entire class.

[Guest]

I've done Bikram too at a handful of studios and I know they typically have window walls to the street and the lobby but would your instructors really let men press their face to the glass and watch like Ed was?  I don't think mine would.  Though honestly no one was ever rude enough to try in my classes so I'm just assuming.  

[mochamajesty]

No one mentioned that scene after Celeste escapes with the kid. Perry almost put his fist through a wall.  He was full of seething rage. And after the moment passes - is he full of remorse?  Does he have one iota of,  'What have I done?".  No. He grabs his briefcase and walks out of the door as 'normal' as you please.

That is more frightening than the abuse scene in some ways. How many guys (or gals) walk about as normal but just beat up their spouse? 
This is what abuse looks like, folks.   This is real.

10 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Off the top of my head, I can think of three yoga studios near my house where you can just watch and all three are on busy streets with a lot of cars and pedestrians. One is a Bikram/hot yoga studios where you can watch class from the sidewalk. There's a big glass window next to a busy street that looks into the studio so anyone walking by can see everyone in the class.  Another is a regular yoga class but it's the same situation (big glass wall that looks onto the street). The third one is another Bikram/hot yoga studio and there is a big glass wall on a busy street. There is a small lobby between the street and the heated yoga room, but the lobby and the yoga room are separated by a wall of glass so if you come into the lobby to ask questions (as I did before I started taking classes there), you can watch the class from the lobby. And because the two walls of glass (one facing the street and the other looking into the yoga room) are parallel, you can stand on the sidewalk and see the entire class.

I would be very uncomfortable there. Just saying.

Edited March 13, 2017 by mochamajesty

[susannot]

2 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've done Bikram too at a handful of studios and I know they typically have window walls to the street and the lobby but would your instructors really let men press their face to the glass and watch like Ed was?  I don't think mine would.  Though honestly no one was ever rude enough to try in my classes so I'm just assuming.  

I practice yoga, mostly at one studio in town but I go to two others occasionally.  None of them have windows open to the street.  I've never seen a man press his face up to the doors and watch the class.  That would creep me out.  Is it a Bikram thing, maybe,to have open windows out to the street?

[Artsda]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It came off as an awkward guy trying to make topical small talk and failing miserably. I'm not trying to say it's okay for him to say things like that, but as someone who has said some really regrettable things to acquaintances, I thought

I agree, he seemed to be trying to make small talk or a transition statement and he failed miserably. He's the book smart engineer type (ie. Big Bang Theory) so I didn't find his comment that alarming. I think he went there with great intentions and his support of Maddie is pretty great. I feel bad for him because of the affair and hearing he's trying to do something about their sex life, but she's not responding. Yet he's still supporting her a lot. 

Nathan's just horrible, I don't see the appeal of him at all. He was trying to pick at Bonnie for a reason to attack Ed? I really don't see what Bonnie finds interesting about him. He doesn't seem to care to parent, it's all on Bonnie. Who doesn't seem to care about studying or grades at all. 

That teacher is the worst. She should be fired. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, susannot said:

I practice yoga, mostly at one studio in town but I go to two others occasionally.  None of them have windows open to the street.  I've never seen a man press his face up to the doors and watch the class.  That would creep me out.  Is it a Bikram thing, maybe,to have open windows out to the street?

I think it's maybe just that the studios here tend to be in retail strip malls where the exterior walls facing the parking are big expanses of glass.  But they typically fog up pretty quickly, too.  

I know people are fond of Ed and I give Adam Scott full credit for that but he's crossing a few lines with me.  Or at least I can see Maddy's interest in Joseph, given Ed's personality.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by Guest

[riverheightsnancy]

28 minutes ago, susannot said:

I practice yoga, mostly at one studio in town but I go to two others occasionally.  None of them have windows open to the street.  I've never seen a man press his face up to the doors and watch the class.  That would creep me out.  Is it a Bikram thing, maybe,to have open windows out to the street?

I used to work in the fitness industry back in the 80s-90s and most of the places I worked had glass so outside customers could see what was happening. It was a selling point. See all the fun you are missing! You can look like this too!  We did have a "lurker" one time, but the manager got rid of him pretty quick. It wouldn't be hard to sit in the parking lot and watch though.  Some of the larger clubs may have the fitness studios in the back or buried within the structure with no outside windows or windows to the street.   Some places may put the classes on a higher floor and they also may have a large window. It is nice for the natural light. Dance studios may often have large windows that look out onto a street or whatever. I think it really depends on the facility, but it is not too uncommon. I worked at one place that had a "women" only vibe, so there was no way for people to look in. That was part of their selling point. Workout without anyone seeing! 

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, susannot said:

True.  But women who go to law school, and women who succeed as lawyers, tend to be loud, ballsy, and aggressive.

I'm also a lawyer, and I disagree. Being an aggressive advocate, which I agree is important, has nothing to do with being loud and mouthy; that's a common misconception. Some of the most accomplished, most successful lawyers I've dealt with of either gender are polished, gentlemanly/ladylike, and soft-spoken. The most successful female lawyer in my field in the city where I practice is very much like Celeste in her manner: polite, gentle but firm, and never raises her voice. 

Although I've dealt with loud, mouthy lawyers who knew their stuff, volume and open aggressiveness in my experience are a sign of insecurity...both in lawyers, and in general. The ones who crow the loudest are the ones who know the least. Lawyers operate in power dynamics, and the person who has the most power in the room is the one who speaks the most quietly. The lawyers who specialize in "loud, ballsy and aggressive" performative outrage, in my experience, are the ones who earn the disdain of judges and their fellow lawyers and are dismissed as know-nothing blowhards.

Other posters have said this, but I agree that women from all walks of life can be abused. Professional success can make it very difficult for abused women to seek help, since they're struggling with the popular myth that educated career women would never "let" themselves be abused.

I dunno what kind of yoga Bonnie was supposed to be doing in her class. Some kind of hybrid, I guess...although Bonnie seems like the kind of person who would insist on "pure" yoga.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[riverheightsnancy]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm also a lawyer, and I disagree. Being an aggressive advocate, which I agree is important, has nothing to do with being loud and mouthy; that's a common misconception. Some of the most accomplished, most successful lawyers I've dealt with of either gender are polished, gentlemanly/ladylike, and soft-spoken. The most successful female lawyer in my field in the city where I practice is very much like Celeste in her manner: polite, gentle but firm, and never raises her voice. 

Although I've dealt with loud, mouthy lawyers who knew their stuff, volume and open aggressiveness in my experience is a sign of insecurity...both in lawyers, and in general. The ones who crow the loudest are the ones who know the least. Lawyers operate in power dynamics, and the person who has the most power in the room is the one who speaks the most quietly. The lawyers who specialize in "loud, ballsy and aggressive" performative outrage, in my experience, are the ones who earn the disdain of judges and their fellow lawyers and are dismissed as know-nothing blowhards.

Excellent discussion. This is akin to saying that a person who works in the mental health field always has their own shit together. I cannot even tell you how many psychiatrists and other allied professionals that I have worked with who were barely holding it together and were in just as bad shape as some of their patients. I know of people in the mental health field who counseled people on eating disorders and had the same (untreated problem). I know of professionals who were being abused at home too or were abusive. Having the knowledge and being proficient in a field does not mean that we have it altogether at home. We often compartmentalize and think, somehow that we are different from the people we help. While I do not think it is a majority, it still happens. Domestic violence can and does happen to anyone. I worked at a shelter during my internship in a very well off county.  Some of these women would roll up to the food bank in a Mercedes because the abusive spouse would use finances as another way of control. He would give her $20 dollars a week to feed the whole family. And if she didn't feed them, look out. She would have all the nice surface things to her friends, but secretly have to go and get free food because of the abuser. It is not easy to get out of these situations, especially if you have no access to any money or a job. I think (at the time) that the number of attempts a woman makes before actually getting out is 8. Also, the most dangerous time for a woman who is being abused is when pregnant. That set off alarm bells for me. 

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I've done Bikram too at a handful of studios and I know they typically have window walls to the street and the lobby but would your instructors really let men press their face to the glass and watch like Ed was?  I don't think mine would.  Though honestly no one was ever rude enough to try in my classes so I'm just assuming.  

I really don't think he lingered there very long. It wasn't so creepy.

There's a yoga class in a strip mall in my town with a giant window to the street. I don't know how you would keep someone from watching. It's a public sidewalk.

ETA: Oh and like someone said above. Parking is right there at the sidewalk. Anyone can sit in a car and watch.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ina123

[CofCinci]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

No one mentioned that scene after Celeste escapes with the kid. Perry almost put his fist through a wall.  He was full of seething rage. And after the moment passes - is he full of remorse?  Does he have one iota of,  'What have I done?".  No. He grabs his briefcase and walks out of the door as 'normal' as you please.

That is more frightening than the abuse scene in some ways. How many guys (or gals) walk about as normal but just beat up their spouse? 
This is what abuse looks like, folks.   This is real.

I would be very uncomfortable there. Just saying.

Alexander Skarsgard is outstanding in this role.  I feel anxious and uncomfortable just watching him. The rage wall punch transition to straightening his clothes and grabbing his briefcase is subtle master craftsmanship. I hope he's recognized for his work here -- however, he's playing a villain without any redemptive qualities so he might miss out on being awarded for his work as a supporting actor in this series. 

1 hour ago, Artsda said:

That teacher is the worst. She should be fired. 

She's doing this to poor little Ziggy to align herself with Reneta. What a bitch. Sadly, school environments can be very Game of Thrones. 

[Ina123]

I thought for sure he was going to throw the laptop across the room when she was sitting at the laptop going over the case.

[gesundheit]

Wow. I watch horror movies regularly and I never see anything as tense and terrifying as the Perry/Celeste scenes. Those are so well done but it's frightening and creepy as hell to watch. And they've done such a great job showing how he's isolated her (and the backstory about how he "helped her through" emotional difficulties when she couldn't get pregnant also helps show how she got gaslighted) and why she knows exactly what's happening but can't break out of it. And it's also chilling (and real) that they've shown how he can justify this to himself, too, convincing himself that this is a dance they're both doing that she encourages. (That whole "sometimes I think you WANT me to hit you" business. Yikes.)


It is forever shocking to me that Nicole Kidman can do so much with no words, for someone who can barely move her face.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I really don't think he lingered there very long. It wasn't so creepy.

There's a yoga class in a strip mall in my town with a giant window to the street. I don't know how you would keep someone from watching. It's a public sidewalk.

Mileage will vary.  I just rewatched and he's shown peeking in for about 20 seconds before Bonnie hands off to another instructor and leaves class to see what he wants.  I guess he waved to her to get her out of class, which to me is more rude than just leering.  I originally thought she left class to get him to quit watching that way.  It's weird to have a man's face up against the glass in the front of class, behind the instructor.  

It's a public sidewalk in front of most of our houses, too, but if someone is going to stand out there with their face up to a window (if that was possible), peering under blinds like Ed was, that'd be unacceptable to most people.  There's being on the sidewalk to do your business and then there is watching people inappropriately.  Just my opinion.  

[Eyes High]

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

I guess he waved to her to get her out of class, which to me is more rude than just leering.

Seriously. Who does that? Couldn't he have waited until the end of class? It's even worse because she wasn't just a participant in the class, she was at work, doing her job.

[Ms Blue Jay]

When I walk downtown Toronto I see that most condos have huge appealing gyms with large windows that I can see into.  I always see the people on treadmills.  Not exactly a yoga studio but not a far cry.  There are usually blinds if needed or preferred.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That's my problem with every tv show/movie where someone just shows up at someone else's job and wants to have a conversation. Bitch, I'm at work! Email me, text me, leave me a voicemail, whatever. I WILL RESPOND WHEN I AM NOT AT WORK.