S03.E15: The Wrath of Savitar

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

While training with Barry, Wally starts to have visions of Savitar, which he hides from the team. A dangerous secret threatens Barry and Iris' happiness.

Promo:

[Trini]

The promo seems to spoil the episode.... I hope not?

[legaleagle53]

*sigh* When are these people going to learn that keeping secrets from one another never works out well for any of them?  Didn't they take a "no secrets" vow a few episodes ago for that very reason?

[ottoDbusdriver]

Funny -- they don't show the box with the Savitar's object (I forget what it was), or who is in control of that box ?

Because someone had to retrieve the box from the speedforce and then open the box to release Savitar back on to Central City.

 

[zannej]

I knew just tossing that box into the speedforce was a bad idea.

[PatternRec]

Quote

...which he hides from the team...

I think the showrunner bible might require this to be a main point of the plot every episode. 

[Lantern7]

This Week: Everybody competes to see who's the biggest dumbass. Barry wins, Savitar really wins, and Wally loses.

Keeping a chunk of stone . . . what the hell, Caitlin? Not seeing the bad guy's manipulation even as he struggles to keep a straight face . . . what the hell, Wally? And giving your lover a ring because you didn't see her wearing it in the future . . . actually, that is classic Barry. He means well, but he's a huge dope. I say we bring the Legends to 2017 so Mick can repeatedly punch him in the head.

No clue about the identity of Savitar. He sounded less mythic this week. "Big bad"? I thought Joss had a trademark on that.

[Trini]

Wow, this was almost the complete opposite of the last episode.

With all the Grodd filler they decided to put all the third act plot points in this one??

Barry didn't ask Joe's permission? Or at least talk to him about proposing? I DON"T BELIEVE YOU, SHOW.

[bettername2come]

I'm growing more and more convinced of that theory that Savitar is saying "I'm the Future Flash" not "I'm the future, Flash." Especially because he said he was sorry Iris had to die.

I have to admit, I kind of like seeing just how much drama can be stirred up because the West-Allen family WON'T STOP LYING TO EACH OTHER! I loved the reveal that Barry proposed because of trying to change the future, although I'm surprised it didn't seem obvious to the other characters. And I admit, it took me a little too long to realize Wally wasn't just checking out Iris's awesome manicure...and then at the end of episode I freaked out because Iris is wearing the same nail polish in the future and present. 

If Barry didn't talk to Joe about this, does that mean he swiped the ring when Joe wasn't home? Since last week they made a point that Joe's been holding it for Barry.

Grant Gustin cries pretty per usual. It's nice that there's something we can always depend on in this show.

Edited March 8, 2017 by bettername2come

[Trini]

WHAAAAATTT

There needed to be a bigger, angrier reaction by everyone to Caitlin keeping part of the stone. This episode, man....

[cambridgeguy]

I see that Barry is doing his best to become Oliver.  Making a good point while being a complete ass?  Check.  Inexplicably lying to his fiancee when a simple honest conversation would have solved everything?  Check.  He should run for mayor next.

They are once again implying that Savitar isn't just some random guy.  To be honest the most logical alternatives are a resurrected Eddie, some version of Eobard, or an alternate Barry.

[Primal Slayer]

This is one of those episodes where they are just doing things that dont make sense to get to their end point. Why didnt Jesse run after Wally? She is a speedster as well. Why didnt Barry run out to look for him once he heard that he was gone? He doesnt need to be standing right next to Cisco to hear him. He can zoom around the entire city in the amount of time it took Cisco to find Wally. Why did Barry just stare at Wally for a hot minute instead of going directly to him trying to save him?

1 minute ago, cambridgeguy said:

I see that Barry is doing his best to become Oliver.  Making a good point while being a complete ass?  Check.  Inexplicably lying to his fiancee when a simple honest conversation would have solved everything?  Check.  He should run for mayor next.

They are once again implying that Savitar isn't just some random guy.  To be honest the most logical alternatives are a resurrected Eddie, some version of Eobard, or an alternate Barry.

Im just glad that Barry was SOOO heartbroken seeing Iris dying from a far that he was able to focus on her fingers to even know they werent engaged. Such a stupid plot to cause cheap drama.

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

WHAAAAATTT

There needed to be a bigger, angrier reaction by everyone to Caitlin keeping part of the stone. This episode, man....

After one of your friends changes reality causing a sibling to die and to turn one of them into a potential killer, this is like a walk in the park.

[Trini]

No, Wally, noooooo!
I figured someone would get trapped in the speedforce - but not so soon! And I knew three speedsters would be too many, but again, not so soon!

So now the mission is to 1) Save Iris, 2) Save Wally, and Stop Savitar.

 

2 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

They are once again implying that Savitar isn't just some random guy.  To be honest the most logical alternatives are a resurrected Eddie, some version of Eobard, or an alternate Barry.

If it has to be someone we know already (siiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhh....), I think it's Barry.

[notagain]

Team Barry is Savitar.

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I see that Barry is doing his best to become Oliver.  Making a good point while being a complete ass?  Check.  Inexplicably lying to his fiancee when a simple honest conversation would have solved everything?  Check.  He should run for mayor next.

They are once again implying that Savitar isn't just some random guy.  To be honest the most logical alternatives are a resurrected Eddie, some version of Eobard, or an alternate Barry.

Still doesn't have an illegitimate spawn so he's not that bad yet!

Ugh I came in to see if Iris said yes and now I find out they made Barry lie like Oliver *sigh* 

[Trini]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ugh I came in to see if Iris said yes and now I find out they made Barry lie like Oliver *sigh* 

He did not lie like Oliver; but he did propose for the wrong reasons.  ::SIGH::

I do have to give them props for surprising me, several times. Although, some of that was people being out of character.

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, Trini said:

He did not lie like Oliver; but he did propose for the wrong reasons.  ::SIGH::

I do have to give them props for surprising me, several times. Although, some of that was people being out of character.

Oh good! I'm waiting for Hubby to watch it with me later. I was worried I would be sitting through the plot related lies of Arrow AGAIN!

[catrice2]

Told you the engagement was too good to be true.  There always has to be Barry Iris drama to keep them apart. 

[Lady Calypso]

Ah, so Barry was about to unmask Savitar like a Scooby Doo villain and then something gets in the way...namely, Savitar's claw. It feels like that particular moment is implying that we'll recognize who it is. I'm calling it now; Savitar will have the face of someone we know. I first thought maybe Eddie, but it could be any recurring character we've seen. Or Barry, as others are calling out. 

Hey! Iris gets good material this episode! Namely, a scene with her dad without Barry or Wally, and a scene where she gets the majority of the dialogue and it's about herself mostly! See, show? Not every female character has to be attached to a man and be a prop. 

All I can see now with Savitar is that he's Voldemort and Barry is Harry Potter. The similarities are just screaming at me, and I know it's really because of Tom Felton. But the whole "both cannot live at the same time" is just so Harry Potter'ish.

I'm normally not a fan of HR, but I did enjoy his small scene with Jesse. I was also really happy to get a Jesse solo scene after Wally's fate worse than death. 

Oh, show. You KNOW that Caitlin has a history with love interests dying or becoming evil. Now I'm starting to think that Julian will survive, but he'll leave town. I'd rather that than his death. It would also just reinforce that Caitlin shouldn't ever be in a romance. That being said, as disappointed as I am in Caitlin only getting love interests and that seems to be her only true purpose on this show, the brief kiss between them was cute. Julian is truly a fantastic character who I will miss if they do end up killing him off.

Damn, that does suck for Wally. As stupid as they've made him, he didn't deserve being lost in the Speed Force.  Well, now Wally's not the one to save Iris from Savitar. Maybe the third speedster's the charm here? 

You know, maybe it's because we've seen so many instances now of people in danger on this show, but wasn't the reaction to Wally's demise....fairly tame? Everyone just stood around, especially Barry, and did nothing. Wally was even trapped in the portal for well over thirty seconds. And...nothing. There was more reaction to Barry's demise last season. Different situations, but still. 

[Trini]

You know, even with her (stupid!) Killer Frost arc, I never thought that they'd write Caitlin off the show; but with the addition of her being the Betrayer, it now seems more likely.

[Proteus]

10 minutes ago, Trini said:

You know, even with her (stupid!) Killer Frost arc, I never thought that they'd write Caitlin off the show; but with the addition of her being the Betrayer, it now seems more likely.

Not to me. The betrayer thing barely left a dent on Caitlin this episode. 

[Maverick]

 I'm waiting for Team Flash to realize they just need to hold hands and pull Wally out of the Speed Force.  [/Justice League Unlimited]

 So I'm starting to think Savitar is part of a temporal causality loop.   Savitar kills Iris so Barry becomes his adversary until some point in the future Barry imprisons him in the Speed Force (where can presumably access any point in time, hence how he's the Hindu god and escape the Speed Force in the present day.   Savitar goes bonkers escapes from the Speed Force, kills Iris in revenge.   Savitar kills Iris because he was imprisoned for eternity but wouldn't have been imprisoned if he hadn't killed Iris.

 Savitar is almost definitely someone we know.  He mentioned he's 'created' soon and seemed to take in a familiar way with Cisco and Iris.  I'm thinking there's a clue in the way he refers to most of Team Flash by first name, but mocks HR as the pretender.  OTOH, the writers probably hasn't figured out who Savitar is and none of it will make sense when he's unmasked.  

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Keeping a chunk of stone . . . what the hell, Caitlin?

Bad call keeping it a secret, but ironically, if she hadn't kept a chunk of the stone, then Savitar would have gotten out much earlier when Barry tossed the dang thing into the Speed Force the first time around.

I have to say, as much as I think the design of old Megatron Savitar is ugly, that practical suit they started using this episode looks much, much better than the CG they used to use for it (and still did during some of the action scenes).

[Trini]

Just now, Cthulhudrew said:

I have to say, as much as I think the design of old Megatron Savitar is ugly, that practical suit they started using this episode looks much, much better than the CG they used to use for it (and still did during some of the action scenes).

I was going to ask if anyone else noticed that. I wasn't 100% sure it was a suit or just really good mocap. I knew Savitar looked different!

[diebartdie]

28 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 So I'm starting to think Savitar is part of a temporal causality loop.   Savitar kills Iris so Barry becomes his adversary until some point in the future Barry imprisons him in the Speed Force (where can presumably access any point in time, hence how he's the Hindu god and escape the Speed Force in the present day.   Savitar goes bonkers escapes from the Speed Force, kills Iris in revenge.   Savitar kills Iris because he was imprisoned for eternity but wouldn't have been imprisoned if he hadn't killed Iris.

 Savitar is almost definitely someone we know.  He mentioned he's 'created' soon and seemed to take in a familiar way with Cisco and Iris.  I'm thinking there's a clue in the way he refers to most of Team Flash by first name, but mocks HR as the pretender.  OTOH, the writers probably hasn't figured out who Savitar is and none of it will make sense when he's unmasked.  

I think Savitar is Wally.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Just now, diebartdie said:

I think Savitar is Wally.

I was about to post the exact same idea.

[benteen]

It's so easy for Savitar when all the so-called heroes are complete idiots.

There's just not much more to say.

[Chris24601]

Calling it now, Savitar is Wally. By his own words he created himself... he gave Wally his speed. His creation as Savitar was when he got pulled into the Speed Force, but he's been trapped so long he's gone insane and confuses Barry being there when he got sucked into the Speed Force with Barry being responsible for trapping him there.

He's faster than Barry because Barry's literally been training him to be faster than him.

ETA: and ninja'd.

[Trini]

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Calling it now, Savitar is Wally. By his own words he created himself... he gave Wally his speed. His creation as Savitar was when he got pulled into the Speed Force, but he's been trapped so long he's gone insane and confuses Barry being there when he got sucked into the Speed Force with Barry being responsible for trapping him there.

He's faster than Barry because Barry's literally been training him to be faster than him.

ETA: and ninja'd.

I think this theory is good, the thing that's missing for me is what is the motivation for killing Iris? I feel it would have to be more than just destroying someone Barry loves. Otherwise it's Zoom all over again. ...

... Which is why on the other hand I don't want this theory to be true, because "the speedster villain has been among us the whole time" for a THIRD time in a row? I thought they listened to the complaints about Zoom last year. Can't Savitar just be an evil speed god?

[Cthulhudrew]

56 minutes ago, Trini said:

I was going to ask if anyone else noticed that. I wasn't 100% sure it was a suit or just really good mocap. I knew Savitar looked different!

I wasn't at first either, and had to go back and be sure they hadn't just toned down the super chrome on the cg to more of a matte. But the texture of the suit and the way the light interacts with it, plus the motion and weight of it, they definitely made a full suit for the actor. It still looks a bit unwieldy and too thick, but I suspect maybe they made the CGI version first, and then later went and did a practical suit and had to confine themselves to the dimensions they gave it originally. Which is too bad, because if it were a bit slimmer and more streamlined, I think it would look (and move) much better overall. Still an improvement. And they always use CG for the Flash running/fighting scenes all the time anyway, so I'm not surprised they're still using the model for those scenes (though I'd love it if they could find a way to do those with practical effects, too).

On another note, I was thinking that maybe Savitar is Wally, too, based on how the episode went down. But Maverick's post about how he refers to everyone but "The Pretender" by name makes me wonder if it isn't somehow going go turn out to be Jesse? She is noticeably absent from the future confrontation, even though everyone else turns up there.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Cthulhudrew

[RedVitC]

That was a rough episode for me after I was so happy with the proposal last episode. But I understood Iris' decision not to be engaged at this point and I like what she said about wanting to be his wife, no someone he tries to save, and at least they didn't break up (I think). I just feel it was kind of unnecessary to have a proposal (much as I loved it) only to do a turnaround the next episode. It was nice to see Joe tearing up a little with the announcement, I imagine when we get the real thing they'll pull out all the tearworks.

The team, and definitely Barry's reaction, to what Caitlin did was too understated. Especially compared to the reaction to Wally lying for one week. Did she really say that someone else's voice comes out of her when she's killer frost.... Regardless, I don't think this is the end of it regarding the secret. Otherwise

Spoiler

Carlos greatly oversold it. He said that the dynamics of the team would change and the way she herself viewed her role in the team. Something like that

The fight with Barry and Savitar at the end was good. Poor Wally, for a moment I thought he was dead, then I though he was Savitar. But I guess he isn't (?).

Savitar did say that Barry would meet him soon.

Edited March 8, 2017 by RedVitC

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Julian is truly a fantastic character who I will miss if they do end up killing him off.

Agreed! Tom Felton steals every scene he's in.  And I laughed way too hard at that awkward hug/handshake/hug/handshake snafu.

I think I'm actively rooting for Savitar at this point. I know Barry and Iris are end game but I really Just. Don't. Care.

[VCRTracking]

Me by the end.

[ruby24]

8 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

That was a rough episode for me after I was so happy with the proposal last episode. But I understood Iris' decision not to be engaged at this point and I like what she said about wanting to be his wife, no someone he tries to save, and at least they didn't break up (I think). I just feel it was kind of unnecessary to have a proposal (much as I loved it) only to do a turnaround the next episode. It was nice to see Joe tearing up a little with the announcement, I imagine when we get the real thing they'll pull out all the tearworks.

 

  Hide contents

 

Well, since they seem to want to copy everything that happened on Arrow (down to the fact that this literally happened in episode 15 again), I guess I would be concerned that they are broken up for the rest of the season now.

[RedVitC]

Ugh, I'm seeing all these cute gifs and pics of Barry and Iris giggling and being adorable at the beginning of the episode (I was too annoyed that we didn't see Iris' 'yes' when I watched to fully appreciate it) and it's making me sad. I love Barry and Iris so much :( . It's kind of cruel to make us think we were getting an engagement and letting us get all hype only for this turn around to happen the next episode.  On the other hand, the people that were scared that Iris would really die because this was too much happiness can rest more easily now...

[thuganomics85]

Of all the lies that were told in this episode, I think the winner goes to Barry's "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."  Even on your best day, that really is true, Barry.  And I say this with love, I swear.

So, basically, everything went south tonight.  Turns out the marriage proposal was partially because Barry realized that Iris didn't have a wedding ring in the future, so figured, hey, maybe that would change things!  I mean, yeah, I'm sure he truly does love her.  Really, I do.  But, yeah, that motivation is really going to put a damper on things.  And, of course, he kept it from her, only for Wally to blab it after he Vibed into the future, and Barry pissed him off being being a grade A jackass earlier (even if he was right on some levels.)  So, no she's back to not wearing a ring.  Way to go, Barry.

That said, I was rolling my eyes hard at how Joe (and later Iris) were upset because Barry didn't ask Joe for "permission."  That's still a thing?  Well, I guess for someone as old-fashioned as Joe, it would be.  But anytime that is brought up, I keep thinking about the Alias pilot when Syd's fiancee asked Jack Bristow for his, and Jack basically scoffed and was all "Like I really have any say in this matter."  Oh, Jack Bristow.

Savitar's premonitions continue to bare fruit.  Caitlin was the one who "betrayed" the team, by revealing she kept part of the stone in a failed attempt to get rid of her powers.  And it is good old Wally who suffers a "fate worse then death", by being forced into the Speed Force, now that Savitar is back in business.  I'm totally down with the theories that Savitar will end up being Future Wally.  Considering how little I care for him, I might actually be down with him turning heel.

I see Julian is no longer Alchemy but the "Human Ouija Board" now.  Poor Julian.  Casting Tom Felton has been the best thing they've done so far for this season.  Really hope he doesn't die, since he clearly is Caitlin's love interest now (even if it's been put on hold, now that he feels like she only wanted him around to get rid of her powers.)

H.R. was actually funny this go around.  Enjoyed his banter with Cisco, even if it hasn't reach Cisco/Harry levels.

Not sure what to think about this episode.  A lot of advancement and changes, but it kind of required everyone to be hit with the stupid stick at least once.

[Chicago Redshirt]

38 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think this theory is good, the thing that's missing for me is what is the motivation for killing Iris? I feel it would have to be more than just destroying someone Barry loves. Otherwise it's Zoom all over again. ...

... Which is why on the other hand I don't want this theory to be true, because "the speedster villain has been among us the whole time" for a THIRD time in a row? I thought they listened to the complaints about Zoom last year. Can't Savitar just be an evil speed god?

The two possibilities that come to mind for me:

1. The eternity stuck in the Speed Force actually drove Wally insane and he wants to get revenge on Flash. The best way to do that is to destroy the person Flash loves most, aka Iris. 

2. Killing Iris is needed to create the timeline that creates Savitar. By getting the glimpse of Savitar killing Iris, Barry has done all sorts of things trying to avoid that particular future. Instead, from Savitar/Wally's perspective, all those things lead to his creation.

I think the notion that Savitar is some random dude would probably be less satisfying than Savitar being someone we know. 

[RedVitC]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

Well, since they seem to want to copy everything that happened on Arrow (down to the fact that this literally happened in episode 15 again), I guess I would be concerned that they are broken up for the rest of the season now.

It just didn't seem like a break up to me, but I could be wrong. They never got to that point during their conversation at home, and I don't count seeing she's not wearing the ring as a break-up (they weren't even alone!) but rather that she decided they shouldn't get engaged like this.   

[RedVitC]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Killing Iris is needed to create the timeline that creates Savitar. By getting the glimpse of Savitar killing Iris, Barry has done all sorts of things trying to avoid that particular future. Instead, from Savitar/Wally's perspective, all those things lead to his creation.

Something like this is what I thought when Savitar said it was either him or Iris that had to die. But I'm not sure how that fits with 'finally I'm free of you'.

How did Savitar's minion know about Barry and Iris being engaged? Keeping up with the Speedforce gossip, eh?

[scarynikki12]

2 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Of all the lies that were told in this episode, I think the winner goes to Barry's "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."  

I laughed so hard when he said that. Yes, Barry , you know what you're doing. Like when you tell your identity to anyone who passes you on the street, or when you almost destroyed the world back in season 1, or whenever you mess with the timeline without any consideration for anyone else, or when you see Wally getting sucked into the Speedforce and YOU JUST STAND THERE WATCHING. Oh, yeah, you totally know what you're doing. 

The one thing Barry did do right was ignoring that archaic and sexist social rule of asking the father's permission to marry his daughter and both Joe and Iris were upset with him for not doing it. When he proposes again (you know he will), he'll probably ask permission and it will be presented as him doing it right. Cue eye rolls. 

[Trini]

18 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Me by the end.

I was more mad than sad, but I haven't found a fitting gif yet.  ;-)
 

27 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

That was a rough episode for me after I was so happy with the proposal last episode. ..

 

 

17 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

...Not sure what to think about this episode.  A lot of advancement and changes, but it kind of required everyone to be hit with the stupid stick at least once.

 

Sometimes I wonder about the writers room. After 2 (two!) episodes of Grodd filler, they put ALL the plot twists in this one.

[RedVitC]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

I guess Savitar (who is Wally) told them? Was it established that Savitar could "talk" to his minions?

I don't really remember. I think maybe it was Alchemy that handed out Savitar's instructions.

 

3 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Joe and Iris were upset with him for not doing it

Did I miss the part where Iris was upset with Barry for not asking Joe first? It's totally possible, because I was getting increasingly more upset as the episode went by.

[rubyred]

Huh. I didn't think that Iris was upset that Barry didn't ask permission, but that he lied and said he did as part of the proposal (in his haste to get a ring on her finger to save her from the future). But I may be wrong. I don't think Iris would care about the permission thing (although I wouldn't put it past Joe to harrumph about something like that). But Barry made it part of the romantic proposal monologue, and once she found out he rushed into proposing she then deduced that he hadn't actually asked Joe or had time to ask Joe. But I may be filling in (plot) holes.

I would like to care more about him and his current plight, but...Wally bugs.

[scarynikki12]

When Iris was telling Barry she wanted to marry him but he went about it the wrong way she mentioned him not asking Joe's permission as one of those ways. 

[Rascotes]

Why did Barry just stand there while Wally was holding that Jesus pose in front of the speed force portal?  You'd think he would have grabbed the kid or something instead of standing there with this "If only there was something I could do!" expression.

I'm totally on board with the Wally being Savitar theory.  

Random note:  I am expecting Draco to be killed but I hope not.  I didn't love the character at first but the guy really does manage to own every scene he's in.  They should make him a regular.

[TDT]

I think that Wally is Megatron Warframe Savitar, but then again he could be another red herring and it turns that he is actually a SHE(i.e. Savitar is really Wally's mother/Joe's ex-wife, or maybe even Joe's new girlfriend..)

[Mellowyellow]

Well that was depressing.

Hubby surprisingly took issue with that fact that Barry asked Iris to marry him to save her.

I didn't think it was that bad. She becomes Iris West Allen in the future anyway. It's destiny so might as well be practical about it.  I'd be welding that ring onto my finger in an attempt to change things. I'd burn the death outfit I was wearing too.

[bmoore4026]

Grant Gustin and Carlos Valdes seemed especially flat and wooden this episode.  I wonder if they're getting tired of this.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Barry stands there while Wally get's sucked into the speed force (can't blame him). Caitlin betrays everyone by keeping part of the stone. Wally's arrogance and bravado is what sets Savitar loose. And Iris does a dick move and removes the engagement ring. You either love the guy or don't. Who cares why he proposed when he did. I know she doesn't remember S1 and professing her love for Barry,  out of fear, when the tsunami was headed toward her, but Barry should. Iris you are not that noble.

At least the season long villain story arc was moved along.

[cambridgeguy]

If Barry hadn't been suck a colossal dick to Wally he probably wouldn't have gone off on his own and fallen for that very transparent ploy by Savitar.  On the plus side Savitar has slowed down a bit because in his previous appearances the other speedsters couldn't even see him move.

I also thing the writers needed to switch the word permission with blessing.  Iris isn't Joe's property so he doesn't have a right to decide who she can marry but it's certainly reasonable to get a father's blessing before proposing.  Of course, maybe it doesn't matter when a brother and sister get engaged.