S01.E08: Lions in Winter

[formerlyfreedom]

When Dorothy and Lucas arrive at Glinda's castle she reclaims something for which she has been searching. The Wizard heads to the Kingdom of Ev to build his weapons arsenal. Meanwhile, West uses some dangerous magic to help Tip reconnect with her past. In the Kingdom of Ev, Jack struggles to find his place in Langwidere's life.

 

[sjohnson]

Jacks place plainly is the beside table. 

[phoenics]

LMAO!

[sjohnson]

The spelling is pretty funny. But "beside table" for "bedside table" (or night stand,) may be an improvement?

[Primetimer]

Adam Grosswirth also really hopes all those witches are under warranty.

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[phoenics]

Well that was confusing.

[dargosmydaddy]

Quote

Where the fuck is Toto?


They left him outside last episode. Is he still just sitting there? Puppy!

He was seen following Dorothy (who stole a horse?) at the end of the episode.

The Wizard's "Oh, fuck" expression at the end was pretty great.

If this doesn't get a season two (fingers still crossed it does), can we get a Jack/ Kingdom of Ev spin-off?

[SimoneS]

I enjoyed the episode.  My favorite is Langwidere and Jack. I hope that those two messed up kids can work it out. Jack might end up staying because she turned on the Wizard which I absolutely loved. The Wizard never even considered the possibility. Ha.

The whole Dorothy/Roan/Glinda triangle was predictable. The only unbelievable bit was that Dorothy could successful attack Glinda. I knew that Sylvie would want to stay with her new friends. Why would she want to go with Dorothy who was planning to abandon her a second ago? This made the voice over to the preview talking about Dorothy and Roan's "great love" vs magic even more funny as she was about to dump his butt just last episode. They came first and all that.

So Eammon killed Tip's parents. Tip coming back to life, also predictable. I just realized that West is the Wicked Witch of the West. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by SimoneS

[Morrigan2575]

I liked the West and Tip stuff. I really liked that we got some backstory on Tip and confirmation on the Cowardly Lion.

I was interested in the Event stuff especially the ending. I figured Lady Ev was going to do that, she has the temperament of spoiled 5 year old. However, the look on the Wizard's face was priceless.

I liked the Sylvie stuff and, liked seeing her making friends. I found the stuff with the young witches interesting and sad. Glinda is so driven to win this war, she's willing to sacrifice every sister she has.  I did find the back story about Mother South wanting West to be her heir interesting. I really really want to meet Mother South

I also liked that we seemed to get a timeline explanation. So, it's been about 8 months since the show started?

Unfortunately, I really hated the love triangle with Dorothy/Roan/Glinda. Personally I don't care for Dorothy/Lucas the actors have chemistry but, the relationship was so heavy handed it's just too much to take. Ironically I actually found the scenes between Roan/Glinda more natural/realistic.

[NorthstarATL]

I swear Roan/Lucas did an eyeroll when Glinda was all "Aren't you going AFTER her?" after Dorothy had nearly killed her. It was such a married thing to do, like the Oz version of having to take out the trash!

  I was afraid that when one of the adults re-entered the dining hall that all there would be a bunch of witchsicles and Sylvie looking scared. But it seems that she got through the usual rite of passage without killing anyone.

  I liked West/Tip, but I was hoping we'd see some sort of transformed Tip after drinking East. if Dorothy is able to access the gloves' power and Tip has the "essence" of East, maybe that's why Tip is still Tip and Dorothy is still herself? Also interesting that Tip still wants to go back to being male even though she knows it was just a protective cloak. I wonder if a male witch would upset the balance of things?

[thuganomics85]

For someone who prides himself at being intelligent, The Wizard sure looked stupid for not even considering that Queen Ev would just simply use those guns against him.  Whoops!  Obviously, I suspect that he will wiggle out of there somehow, but his face when he realized what happened was priceless.

I like the idea of Dorothy and Glinda at odds, but it pretty much being over Lucas/Roan is kind of lame.  It's making Glinda look real petty and jealous, and with Dorothy, I just don't get why she would be that hung up over a guy she just met and barely knew.  I bought her reaction over Sylvie staying instead of going with her more, then I did over Lucas's "betrayal."

Tip's parents were killed by the Cowardly Lion, who turns out to be Eammon.  I guess he had to factor more into this somehow.  But now Tip drunk East (?), looked like she died, so West sacrificed herself to resurrect her?  I'm still confused over all of that and if West is actually dead or not.  But I guess Tip is a witch now?

Oh, Jack.  It's always hard finding yourself torn between the hot Queen who sleeps and even seems to like you, but still thinks of you a property, and the crazy lady that brought you back to life by turning you into a half robot!  I also felt like Ev's mask in this episode was different from the rest, where I felt like I could see more of her face compared to the norm.

[djinn]

This episode advanced a lot of plot points. I really liked the West-Tip/Ozma stuff, even though the end was a bit confusing, with Tip coming back after being presumed dead by West. But in the beginning of the episode, West seemed almost giddy like a girl, and plotting things with Tip in tow.

Eamonn/Lion killed the King and Queen. And incredibly, he is still loyal to the wizard. Not sure why?

I'm a bit confused about Roan being Glinda's husband, and also one of Eamonn's guards. Was he Glinda's husband only for the past two years? Why did he choose Glinda over being in the Wizard's guard? The love triangle up North was bad.

Ev and Jack were OK. I loved Langwidere turning the tables on the Wizard. I wonder if he knows Jane is still alive and working in Ev all those years.

So East's powers are now divided between Tip and Dorothy?

[LittleIggy]

That little girl playing Sylvie has the biggest eyes! She can speak volumes with them.

I knew Tip wasn't dead.

Loved Dorothy going badass on Glinda. The effect of Glinda being rolled up in the white sheet and hanged by a noose was awesome and so Singh.

[surfer]

NBC Friday nights has the market cornered on death by bed sheets (see Grimm)

[GenieinTX]

Yeah, the love triangle - ugh.  But here is one where he is being honest with Glinda.  He's not hiding his love for Dorothy, he's like straight up - Sorry, Wife.  She's in my blood.  I like Lucas/Dorothy together so I guess I'm a bit forgiving.

It was a bit unbelievable that the Ev went from one pistol to those big shotguns, but I'll go with it as they turned on the wizard.  That was unexpected and cool.

[attica]

Glinda's wardrobe is excellent; I covet it. I might also be coveting JR's body double -- yowza!

OJC's evident pleasure in acting opposite a powerhouse like JR is fun to watch.

VDO sits a horse well. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does.

If I had a giant lion head in my possession, it would decorate my living room sofa so that I could give it scritches while watching tv. I'd febreeze it occasionally, too, because: oof.

[iMonrey]

I agree about Glinda's gown, attica.

This is the most we've ever seen of Langwidere's face, and I cannot detect any kind of deformity which would explain why she's always wearing a mask. I hope they explain that at some point. I know it's a nod to the books and an attempt at a more "realistic" version of that, but there still needs to be an explanation for it (unless they've already given it, and I missed it.) 

Glinda's castle looks like a nuclear reactor.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, attica said:

Glinda's wardrobe is excellent; I covet it. I might also be coveting JR's body double -- yowza!

The white dress with the silver runes was stunning. 

[Snarkette]

I don't care for Glinda's interior decorator. The whole door lens aperture effect bored me by the second door. How do growing witches live and thrive on thin gruel? 

Who feeds and cares for the decrepwitches? Is there an en suite adjoining the hovering mad bodies of shame? 

[Kuther2000]

I am trying to make sense of what I heard. Is it Glinda's fault that the girls are burning out? Is she pushing them to overexert their magic before they can fully control it?

I swear I thought we were going to find out the black lady in the room was Mother South and that Glinda was keeping her captive and breeding her and taking the baby once its over.

I wonder how Tip ended up with Mombi and why the Wizard didn't just kill the baby especially when there is always a chance she could come back.

[NorthstarATL]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is the most we've ever seen of Langwidere's face, and I cannot detect any kind of deformity which would explain why she's always wearing a mask. I hope they explain that at some point. I know it's a nod to the books and an attempt at a more "realistic" version of that, but there still needs to be an explanation for it (unless they've already given it, and I missed it.) 

I don't know what the reveal will be (completely unspoiled except for the movies and musicals!), but I was looking for what might be wrong with her face as well, and was reminded of a story of Dr. Doom in an old Fantastic Four comic where he took off his mask for the first time on panel, and there was a tiny scar! He was so obsessed by it ruining his "prefect" face (this was before plastic surgery became commonplace) that he wore a mask ever since in public.

 

20 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

I wonder how Tip ended up with Mombi and why the Wizard didn't just kill the baby especially when there is always a chance she could come back.

I think it's been established that the reason Mombi turned her into a "boy" was to protect her from just such a fate. The Wizard doesn't target boys.

[walnutqueen]

Perhaps the Wizard thought Tip died when her mother was killed, and the "Lion" (Eammon) actually saved her by taking her to Mombi?

I am SO loving this show, and just want More, More, More.

[Morrigan2575]

39 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

Perhaps the Wizard thought Tip died when her mother was killed, and the "Lion" (Eammon) actually saved her by taking her to Mombi?

I am SO loving this show, and just want More, More, More.

I'm assuming Eammon was tasked with killing the baby but, couldn't do it and gave her to Mombi to hide.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, Snarkette said:

 How do growing witches live and thrive on thin gruel?

Maybe that's why they burn out -- lack of proper nutrition.  Glinda should look into having a nutritional consultation.

[Terrafamilia]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Glinda's castle looks like a nuclear reactor.

If nuclear reactors were carved out of solid marble. :-)

[KingOfHearts]

"If this works, you can turn yourself into a tomato for all I care."

This is show is getting too soapy for me. The Glinda/Lucas relationship was dumb and contrived. The fact they were married was just to drum up angst, and we know Lucas isn't going to kill Dorothy. The whole ordeal felt really out of place, at least to me. The drama would be greater if we had any picture of Glinda's past relationship with him. Right off the bat, she denied he was the man he used to be. There's just not enough built up to give us any real reason to believe Lucas would kill for her other than "they're married and she goes topless for him". The writers need to show, not tell.

It's supposed to be this grand epic featuring war, political power struggles, etc. From the visuals, it still looks like that. However, other than West, the characters have gotten very bland. They're more like chess pieces for the writers, instead of pawns for each other. (If that makes sense.) Most of the character development has stopped and there's far less intrigue because it feels like we know everything but Langwidere's nose structure now.

I was hoping we were going to get more of Glinda's backstory. She's really not that interesting any more. We already knew she was betraying West, breeding witches, and going up against the Wizard. There's not much else to it. Her characterization is just as cold as her sense of fashion. What you see is what you get, which is a shame because I thought her character had potential to be as interesting as West.

Edited February 18, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[TroopinFairy]

What was it that Tip said to West at the end of the episode? I didn't catch it.

[Terrafamilia]

42 minutes ago, TroopinFairy said:

What was it that Tip said to West at the end of the episode? I didn't catch it.

Something along the lines of, "it worked."

[phoenics]

Even though I'm not a Glinda fan much at all (okay I hate her, lol, and think she's basically a Hunger Games Coin redux with a love interest), I do think this episode gave more insight into her.

Glinda cannot have children.  And she clearly is angry about it and I think she surrounded herself with "chaste" women in order to insulate herself from the fact that she can't have any.  And worse, she doesn't love children - honestly her womb may be barren because her heart is empty and cold.  She has Roan, but she treats him more like a possession than a husband.  Just like she treats the witch children like weapons instead of children.  She's surrounded by all of these wonderful little girls, yet she isn't a mother to them at all - they are just weapons for her in her war against the Wizard.  She cares about magic and that's it.  But what good is having witches growing up and living life if they're just weapons for her?  Dispensable.

Also - she's a hypocrite.  It's not okay for her council to have love, but she can?  Witch.

She clearly pushes the girls far too hard - remember in the previous episode, West said that witches weren't to exhaust too much power before a certain age because it kills them or makes them go loopy like the ones Dorothy saw and the one West finally put to rest.  Again - they are just weapons to her.

We also found out that Mother South wanted West to be her heir, not Glinda.  Honestly Mother South is smart because all Glinda seems to care about is winning and power - and I'm sure Mother South saw that.  West seems far more nurturing - even though she runs a brothel.

Also - not sure but it appears that Glinda killed the other girl who was pregnant (the council woman?)?  The one left was only left because she was too far along.  I think that's what was implied.  So Glinda didn't kill her.  But why kill any of them?  I think it's because since she cannot have children, she cannot abide anyone else having a child or having that around her and reminding her that she herself cannot have children.  Look at the way she reacted to Roan/Dorothy when the child was born - she was furious.

I am enjoying Roan - his voice has deepened since he got his memories back.  It's less joyful though.  I do think his predicament is messy - that's the mother of soapy situations.  I hate that he's married to Glinda though - irritated too because I'm afraid we only have 2 episodes left and probably won't get a season 2.

I really like this show - I want a season 2 just to see what happens.

Edited February 19, 2017 by phoenics

[Morrigan2575]

10 hours ago, attica said:

VDO sits a horse well. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does.

I'm watching the Magnificent Seven remake and he's in it (good role). Perhaps he learned to ride for the movie?

Quote

Also - not sure but it appears that Glinda killed the other girl who was pregnant (the council woman?)?  The one left was only left because she was too far along.  I think that's what was implied.  So Glinda didn't kill her

I thought it was supposed to be the same woman? I thought this was an indication of how much time has passed since the beginning. 

[HunterHunted]

21 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I liked the West and Tip stuff. I really liked that we got some backstory on Tip and confirmation on the Cowardly Lion.

I was interested in the Event stuff especially the ending. I figured Lady Ev was going to do that, she has the temperament of spoiled 5 year old. However, the look on the Wizard's face was priceless.

I liked the Sylvie stuff and, liked seeing her making friends. I found the stuff with the young witches interesting and sad. Glinda is so driven to win this war, she's willing to sacrifice every sister she has.  I did find the back story about Mother South wanting West to be her heir interesting. I really really want to meet Mother South

I also liked that we seemed to get a timeline explanation. So, it's been about 8 months since the show started?

Unfortunately, I really hated the love triangle with Dorothy/Roan/Glinda. Personally I don't care for Dorothy/Lucas the actors have chemistry but, the relationship was so heavy handed it's just too much to take. Ironically I actually found the scenes between Roan/Glinda more natural/realistic.

West is all emotion. There's no strategy whatsoever with her.  It's why she impulsively and recklessly fed East's spells to Tip. It's also why after she thinks she's killed Tip, she flees to Glinda for help and then tries to kill herself. Because she's so emotional, she doesn't seem to realize that had she gone to Glinda earlier, she had a fantastic hand to play. West has her own magic, the Princess Ozma, and the ear of the Wizard because he's killed all of Glinda's council.

Is Mombi is Mother South? It just seems unlikely that you'd hire Fiona Shaw just as a one off. There is a way to read her turning Ozma into Tip as a kind of compassion and why she'd see West as her heir. This is assuming that Mombi is South. So far the two of them have exhibited empathy that has been absent in Glinda and East.

Except for Roan, Glinda appears to be very cold and aloof. I'm sure that's why she's adopted her very terrible strategy of training her witches by hazing and over exhaustion. Yes, there is a war that is imminent. However, she has some pretty old witchlings in her castle/compound. She's probably been breeding and training witchlings since the last Beast Forever.

I think it's intentional that we saw three different reactions to loss in this episode: Glinda (cold and angry), West (anguished and self destructive), and Dorothy (heart-broken, but determined).

The Wizard is a dope. He's been very lucky as a post war dictator. Everyone was so busy rebuilding that they didn't realize they let a thin-skinned dipshit become a dictator. However, he's not really smart; he got conned by Glinda and Langwidere.

[phoenics]

22 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought it was supposed to be the same woman? I thought this was an indication of how much time has passed since the beginning. 

The other one was Asian not black.

[sjohnson]

If Eamonn was working for Glinda when he killed the King and Queen but didn't kill Ozma...I have no idea what that means. Nor do I know why Eamonn is the Cowardly Lion when it was the Wizard who was all scared into ordering their deaths. 

What Glinda does is pretty villainous if the Wizard is not the Beast Forever, as she said. But if he's the Beast Forever, whatever was that awesome green wave of  water that drowned all those young witches? Also, since the Beast Forever is the Wizard, why is anyone afraid of the Beast? 

Why did Jack care so much about Jane? 

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Glinda's castle looks like a nuclear reactor.

I thought so too.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

If Eamonn was working for Glinda when he killed the King and Queen but didn't kill Ozma...I have no idea what that means. Nor do I know why Eamonn is the Cowardly Lion when it was the Wizard who was all scared into ordering their deaths. 

What Glinda does is pretty villainous if the Wizard is not the Beast Forever, as she said. But if he's the Beast Forever, whatever was that awesome green wave of  water that drowned all those young witches? Also, since the Beast Forever is the Wizard, why is anyone afraid of the Beast? 

Why did Jack care so much about Jane? 

The Beast Forever takes new forms each time.  The last time was Water, this time it appears to be a human form (not sure who). Glinda claims it's The wizard, the Wizard is now claiming it's Witches. I still THINK Dorothy is The Beast Forever. 

Of course given how little time we have left, I'm actually worried we wont get to see The Beast Forever. 

[LittleIggy]

12 hours ago, attica said:

Glinda's wardrobe is excellent; I covet it. I might also be coveting JR's body double -- yowza!

OJC's evident pleasure in acting opposite a powerhouse like JR is fun to watch.

VDO sits a horse well. I don't know why that surprises me, but it does.

Well, he was in the "Magnificent Seven" remake (I loved his character).

[theatremouse]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Why did Jack care so much about Jane? 

Because she made him not dead and was relatively kind to him?

[Camera One]

It's too bad since I was enjoying the show, but these last two episodes have been weak, and leaves me neutral on whether I even care for a second season.

Glinda became a screeching harpie.  These characters are mostly adaptations in name-only.  The triangle was particularly unenjoyable to watch and totally unnecessary, since we need to see these characters come together to face the threat, with just two episodes left.  

I had a bit of hope since West was pretty awesome with Tip and showed up at Glinda's to fight, but then she went to try to kill herself.

Was it supposed to be a surprise that Tip came back to life and Eamon was the Lion Face?  

How did the Wizard explain the King and the Queen dying?  

So I guess we now know Ev is one night's ride away?

[xqueenfrostine]

While I do like this show, I can't stop thinking about how completely stupid it is that there were no guns in Oz prior to this time or that Ev would have needed Dorothy's gun to serve as a prototype to build one.  They have the technological prowess to build clockwork marvels, but a device that's centuries old in our world was unknown to them?  It's not like Ev wasn't already in the weapons business.

I also continue to find Lucas/Roan so boring.  I'm happy to have more Glinda, but I can do without her and Dorothy's shared boy toy.  More witch politics, less relationship angst please!

On 2/17/2017 at 9:38 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I also liked that we seemed to get a timeline explanation. So, it's been about 8 months since the show started?

Possibly not quite that long, as it can take months for a woman to become noticeably pregnant, especially the first time around.  And it's not like Glinda's council women wear formfitting clothing.  So probably no less than 4 months, but no greater than 8.

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Is Mombi is Mother South? It just seems unlikely that you'd hire Fiona Shaw just as a one off. There is a way to read her turning Ozma into Tip as a kind of compassion and why she'd see West as her heir. This is assuming that Mombi is South. So far the two of them have exhibited empathy that has been absent in Glinda and East.

I don't think she's Mother South, as it doesn't seem like she'd have time to both care for Tip on a daily basis for so long and birth/create so many children.  Also her powers just didn't seem flashy enough for a cardinal witch.  That said, I don't think Mombi needs to have be Mother South for her to still have a future with this series.   I imagine that if we see more of Tip's true identity as Ozma, we'll likely see how Ozma survived her parents' assassination and who brought her out of the Emerald City and into hiding.  That story could require Shaw to come back either for flashback scenes or the show might send Tip back to Mombi's hut (where she may still be alive) to look for answers.

[Snarkette]

Has West now "birthed" TipOzma?

[AzureOwl]

The woman in the dungeon was not the same one from the first episode, so her pregnancy cannot be used to establish a timeline. 

Going by Elizabeth's calculations, confirmed by Anna, it can't be more than 8 days from the point when the Beast killed those prostitutes to send the Wizard a message. 

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is the most we've ever seen of Langwidere's face, and I cannot detect any kind of deformity which would explain why she's always wearing a mask. I hope they explain that at some point. I know it's a nod to the books and an attempt at a more "realistic" version of that, but there still needs to be an explanation for it (unless they've already given it, and I missed it.) 

I am beginning to suspect that the skin underneath is part of the mask, with the "mask" component being in place to hide the "seams". 

[zumpie]

While I do like this show, I can't stop thinking about how completely stupid it is that there were no guns in Oz prior to this time or that Ev would have needed Dorothy's gun to serve as a prototype to build one.  They have the technological prowess to build clockwork marvels, but a device that's centuries old in our world was unknown to them?  It's not like Ev wasn't already in the weapons business.

I also continue to find Lucas/Roan so boring.  I'm happy to have more Glinda, but I can do without her and Dorothy's shared boy toy.  More witch politics, less relationship angst please!

  On 2/17/2017 at 7:38 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I also liked that we seemed to get a timeline explanation. So, it's been about 8 months since the show started?

Possibly not quite that long, as it can take months for a woman to become noticeably pregnant, especially the first time around.  And it's not like Glinda's council women wear formfitting clothing.  So probably no less than 4 months, but no greater than 8.

  14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Is Mombi is Mother South? It just seems unlikely that you'd hire Fiona Shaw just as a one off. There is a way to read her turning Ozma into Tip as a kind of compassion and why she'd see West as her heir. This is assuming that Mombi is South. So far the two of them have exhibited empathy that has been absent in Glinda and East.

I don't think she's Mother South, as it doesn't seem like she'd have time to both care for Tip on a daily basis for so long and birth/create so many children.  Also her powers just didn't seem flashy enough for a cardinal witch.  That said, I don't think Mombi needs to have be Mother South for her to still have a future with this series.   I imagine that if we see more of Tip's true identity as Ozma, we'll likely see how Ozma survived her parents' assassination and who brought her out of the Emerald City and into hiding.  That story could require Shaw to come back either for flashback scenes or the show might send Tip back to Mombi's hut (where she may still be alive) to look for answers.

I've been saying no fire arms (or anything even resembling a primitive one, technology that dates back like a thousand years) in Oz or Ev is ridiculous for awhile. Their armor is 15th-16th century, as are their swords, etc.......to say nothing of the extensive clockwork technology. Any blacksmith could've figured out how to create a hand canon, especially when they have visitors from a world with those sort of things.

And I still think it's weird the leader of police state who attained that power through a military "science" coup hadn't thought to implement something along those lines is also really difficult to buy.

[HunterHunted]

11 minutes ago, zumpie said:

I've been saying no fire arms (or anything even resembling a primitive one, technology that dates back like a thousand years) in Oz or Ev is ridiculous for awhile. Their armor is 15th-16th century, as are their swords, etc.......to say nothing of the extensive clockwork technology. Any blacksmith could've figured out how to create a hand canon, especially when they have visitors from a world with those sort of things.

And I still think it's weird the leader of police state who attained that power through a military "science" coup hadn't thought to implement something along those lines is also really difficult to buy.

Really the problem with no guns is that the Wizard sat there and described the components of gun powder, but they have no cannons, rockets, or flintlock guns. If he hadn't known the elements of gun powder, it would be easy to fanwank that he needed Ev to figure out the components, but he didn't. He knew exactly what it was made of and never thought to make it himself to secure his rule.

I'm increasingly of the mindset that he is the autocratic ruler of Oz because of luck. Everyone else was devastated and rebuilding after the Beast Forever. No one gave any mind to this new guy, who slips into Emerald City, kills the royal family, and seizes power as the hero who killed the Beast Forever. He's had this weird alliance where Glinda has provided him with all of his advisors and never once thought to question it. He should have long ago secured an alliance between him and Ev by either marrying into their family or taking Langwidere as a hostage ward of Emerald City. He's a force to be overcome only because of propaganda and not actual power. I'm also assuming that Jane is responsible for the immortal warriors. 

[peacheslatour]

6 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

The woman in the dungeon was not the same one from the first episode, so her pregnancy cannot be used to establish a timeline. 

Going by Elizabeth's calculations, confirmed by Anna, it can't be more than 8 days from the point when the Beast killed those prostitutes to send the Wizard a message. 

I am beginning to suspect that the skin underneath is part of the mask, with the "mask" component being in place to hide the "seams". 

I think you've got something there.

Edited February 19, 2017 by peacheslatour

[sjohnson]

15 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Because she made him not dead and was relatively kind to him?

But that's also made him not exactly human either, and was unkind enough to make him a slave. But it is true the show routinely insists that people are wonderful who do terrible things going by what's on screen. Leith's/Sylvie's slaughter of the old king of Ev for instance is nothing compared to cutting Dorothy. 

The Wizard says the Beast is magic, Glinda says the Beast is the Wizard. Perhaps the Beast is Langwidere, who isn't supposed to be that old I think. 

Mombi may have turned Ozma into Tip to hide the heir from Glinda, not the Wizard, who couldn't manage to kill the baby in the coup (assuming the murders of the king and queen weren't at Glinda's behest.) Nobody need take any great precautions in dealing with that moron.

[Camera One]

But that's also made him not exactly human either, and was unkind enough to make him a slave.

The alternative is that he would have died.  It's not abnormal to be grateful to the person who saved your life, even though the process resulted in unavoidable changes (eg. the metal plates).

not the Wizard, who couldn't manage to kill the baby in the coup (assuming the murders of the king and queen weren't at Glinda's behest.)

Why would Glinda, who hates the Wizard, ask him to murder the king and queen and take their place?  I suppose this could be a big twist coming up, but I don't see how it fits in with the story as presented so far.

[sjohnson]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

The alternative is that he would have died.  It's not abnormal to be grateful to the person who saved your life, even though the process resulted in unavoidable changes (eg. the metal plates).

 

 

Why would Glinda, who hates the Wizard, ask him to murder the king and queen and take their place?  I suppose this could be a big twist coming up, but I don't see how it fits in with the story as presented so far.

So grateful he would dump his first girl friend?

Glinda is by definition good, because she's magic. But what's on screen is that she's abusing young witches to build up an army to kill the Wizard she's been spying on. Maybe she's planning to take over afterward? The on screen persona seems mean enough to me. Having her minion kill the "rightful" monarchs after claiming to the Wizard they were threatening him means that helpless boob was left as pretend head, while her council, i.e., Glinda, really ran things. And the Glinda/ Wizard war doesn't come until he's finally clued in by West what a young witch like Leith/Sylvie means. But it finally occurred to me that Mombi was saving Tip to puppet when Ozma finally takes the throne.

The only problem with that is why a good person like Glinda doesn't seem to care about the Beast Forever. 

[Camera One]

Glinda is definitely not being portrayed as good.  In the book, she was good, but clearly, they decided to go for "opposites" in this production.

[tennisgurl]

Man, the wizard was all kinds of dumb when it came to the fire arms he had built. "Yeah, I think I will ask the leader who hates me, and has straight up told me to my face that she hates me and wants to bathe in my blood to make me lots of super powerful weapons that will change the balance of power in my world, and I'm just going to assume that she will just make them for me and hand them over after I shot some random women. This is an awesome plan!"

Lucus/Glinda huh? It seems like they gave us his backstory a little too fast, like, where do we go from here? He is basically a new character now, a combination of his new and his old self, so where does that leave us? And now Dorothy has no one but Toto. The true hero of this story.

The room full of brain mashed girls was creepy as hell. And the show still looks amazing all the time. Even when the plot doesn't make all of the sense, its amazing to look at, and has some solid and creative world building, even if some of its pretty vague right now. Also, it really seems like West is the lesser evil of this whole power play. At least she actually cares about the people under her, unlike the Wizard and Glinda.

Edited February 20, 2017 by tennisgurl

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Leith's/Sylvie's slaughter of the old king of Ev for instance is nothing compared to cutting Dorothy.

Leith might not have killed him -- Sylvie only did so because she was scared, and had no control at all over her powers (and I wouldn't say she slaughtered him, the way the King and Queen were).  That was more or less a case of the King of Ev being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, it really seems like West is the lesser evil of this whole power play. At least she actually cares about the people under here, unlike the Wizard and Glinda.

The lesser of all the evils (Wizard, Glinda, Langwidere...) I think.  Even her "brothel" is the SF/fantasy trope-ish one, where the girls are happy to serve, and there are no "problem patrons", STDs or other bubble-busters.

===========================================

I'm ignoring the title of this episode so I don't get stabby.  The Lion in Winter is one of my favorite movies, and the politics of Emerald City would be laughable even to John.  Of course it does answer the guns question: "Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 Oz and we're barbarians!"

Edited February 20, 2017 by jhlipton