S03.E12: Go Cry Somewhere Else

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Courtroom tension is palpable as prosecutors prepare to enter a new charge against Annalise. Meanwhile, Nate finds evidence that could cast doubt on his innocence; and Oliver is brought in for questioning by detectives.

[secnarf]

3 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

Quote

Courtroom tension is palpable as prosecutors prepare to enter a new charge against Annalise. Meanwhile, Nate finds evidence that could cast doubt on his innocence; and Oliver is brought in for questioning by detectives.

Who is the "his" referring to?

[jvr]

@secnarf I read it as the evidence cast doubt on him (Nate). So he finds evidence that would make him look guilty regarding his "innocence" as a whole regarding all the shit Anna's group has been implicated in. The DA lady has already accused him of trying to help Anna.

[Milaxx]

Agreed. In true show form TPTB want to try and create suspicion that either Nate or Oliver killed Wes and/or set the fire.

[secnarf]

It makes more sense after seeing the episode, I suppose, but it just sounds odd that he would "find" evidence that casts doubt on his own innocence, as if he doesn't know himself whether or not he is guilty.

And after tonight's episode, I'm thinking not. With that ending, it's most likely a red herring.

Oliver laughing hysterically was kind of creepy, in a sociopathic sort of way. He seems like such a terrible liar initially and then he goes and lies with ease. I really don't like him much anymore.

I am really liking Michaela, though.

[fellini]

Cicely Tyson must be broke, that is the only reason I can think of that would make her want to act on this stupid show. This episode was like a bad soap opera. Did Tyler Perry write this?

[Keepitmoving]

OMG, episode is made of win! It keeps getting better, and if I side eye Oliver anymore, my eyeballs will disappear,  sneaky motherfucker. 

Michaela, oh how I love that girl and amen to the head wrap. When she said "that bitch better...."  I died laughing. She and Asher might as well get married, he's farting (he's so gross just like a man) in his sleep and her head is wrapped, I love it, love it. Now this shit is real.

Good lord, Cicely Tyson... Anna, her parents, I'm speechless. I can't come up with the words.

I love how that inmate I forgot the actresses name, the one from Lost, had that smirk on her face, she knew when Anna didn't come back that she mean to get her ass beat. Hopefully, she'll be back and once Anna gets back on her feet she can help get her out of jail, something.

Trifling ass Nate, WTF?

Edited February 10, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[wanderingstar]

"I'm good at everything I do." I just adore Michaela. She really is a hero. And her little love scene with Asher was hot!

Frank is just representing himself to get conjugals with Bonnie, right?

I was texting with a friend of mine during this ep (we text each other while watching this and other shows), and we agreed that the scenes of Annalise in jail are a wasted opportunity. I've found them repeititive, and IMO they haven't done much to advance the plot - at least until Annalise goaded that inmate into beating her up. 

Laurel losing her shit was pretty realistic. So was Oliver's panic attack. I was glad to hear him say he chose to get involved with AK & Co. 

Connor's whining continues to grate.

Seeing Annalise's parents was nice, but her mom's dementia was sad to watch.

I'm doubtful that Nate did it. What would be his motive? Also, we've still got 3 episodes left, so we've got at least 3 more red herrings to get through.

Who is Wes' "In Case of Emergency" call to? And who else knows him as Christophe. The plot thickens...

Edited February 10, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[Neurochick]

15 minutes ago, fellini said:

Cicely Tyson must be broke, that is the only reason I can think of that would make her want to act on this stupid show. This episode was like a bad soap opera. Did Tyler Perry write this?

The show may be stupid but we're watching.  LOL.  And I don't think Tyler Perry wrote this, but even if he did, his movies and shows make $$, so there is that.

Only three more episodes in this season?

Maybe Connor killed Wes.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Neurochick

[Tiger]

If Famke wasnt contractually prohibited by NBC from appearing, I'd think Eve was Wes' ICE.  

The way Jack played that last scene was odd . . . it was if Connor had started questioning who Oliver really is and what he may have done or be capable of, and then immediately switched off any suspicion.

Season 3B is turning into the season of Michaela and it's friggin amazing.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Tiger

[truthaboutluv]

Until proven otherwise, I am now convinced that Laurel killed Wes. I think it was an accident and the fire was separate. So she accidentally killed him and before she could figure out what to do, the house exploded. I think her grief is over loving him yes but guilt for accidentally killing him and now lying about it. 

[Dee]

I need someone on this show to punch Connor in the throat.

[bantering]

That prosecutor always seems like she's about to burst into tears or whine about something. Bugs me to no end. 

[Dee]

This show has a great casting director.

Yolonda Ross, L. Scott Caldwell, Roger Robinson and Cicely Tyson in one episode? Talk about an embarrassment of riches.

[Kira53]

32 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Until proven otherwise, I am now convinced that Laurel killed Wes. I think it was an accident and the fire was separate. So she accidentally killed him and before she could figure out what to do, the house exploded. I think her grief is over loving him yes but guilt for accidentally killing him and now lying about it. 

 Fascinating theory. Definitely that would be an unexpected twist. And we do like unexpected twists.  

I'm really enjoying the second half so far. Not every scene is great but the overall is very enjoyable. Like a lot of other people, I'm enjoying Michaela's character development.  The earlier poster was so insightful about the development of the relationship to her tying up her hair and him farting  means no more pretenses and it's a real relationship. As a couple I find them kind of cute and sweet. But it took a while to get there. 

[pinkelephant3]

I still don't think Wes is dead. I think he takes his death and the ADA lady is in on it. He had no idea Laurel was pregnant so he wouldn't need to stick around and care for the baby. Just a thought ... Him faking his death is to set Anna and Nate and everyone else up for all the deaths 

[WhitneyWhit]

Wes setting them up as some sort of punishment would actually make me hate him because all this shittery is his fault to begin with.

[pennben]

I initially thought that Annalise's mom was laying out a defense for her---I'll take the fall by describing the exact scenario of my crime, we play the dementia card and say I did all those things in your house and inadvertently killed Wes when I thought I was confronting the horrible Uncle. Sorry to see it really was dementia. 

i have a feeling Viola Davis is the 'casting director' with at least Cicely Tyson (I feel like I read last year that she really wanted her to play her mom), and the opportunity to play in scenes with her is a huge incentive for other guest stars. 

[Artsda]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Until proven otherwise, I am now convinced that Laurel killed Wes. I think it was an accident and the fire was separate. So she accidentally killed him and before she could figure out what to do, the house exploded. I think her grief is over loving him yes but guilt for accidentally killing him and now lying about it. 

Or may be she doesn't remember?

I loved Michaela this episode.

[wanderingstar]

6 hours ago, Dee said:

This show has a great casting director.

Yolonda Ross, L. Scott Caldwell, Roger Robinson and Cicely Tyson in one episode? Talk about an embarrassment of riches.

And Bryan Tyree Henry as Frank's public defender! I was so happy to see him on this show!

[Aquarius97]

Since they showed the morgue scene in the promo, it was clear that Wes' body was not going to be there. At least they had to release AK as Bonnie seemingly proved that it was a conspiracy against AK.

I guess that in the DA they aren't fools and they have tried to cover it pinning it on Nate

[Milaxx]

9 hours ago, secnarf said:

It makes more sense after seeing the episode, I suppose, but it just sounds odd that he would "find" evidence that casts doubt on his own innocence, as if he doesn't know himself whether or not he is guilty....

I think the evidence was the signature on the ME's report authorizing Wes body to be moved.

8 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

OMG, episode is made of win! It keeps getting better, and if I side eye Oliver anymore, my eyeballs will disappear,  sneaky motherfucker. 

Michaela, oh how I love that girl and amen to the head wrap. When she said "that bitch better...."  I died laughing. She and Asher might as well get married, he's farting (he's so gross just like a man) in his sleep and her head is wrapped, I love it, love it. Now this shit is real....

YES! I have no idea who Wes and/or what happened to Wes, but i was thoroughly entertained this week. Twitter erupted when Micheala showed up in her headwrap. You know it's true love when you're comfortable enough to let him see you in your headwrap.

8 hours ago, Tiger said:

If Famke wasn't contractually prohibited by NBC from appearing, I'd think Eve was Wes' ICE.  

The way Jack played that last scene was odd . . . it was if Connor had started questioning who Oliver really is and what he may have done or be capable of, and then immediately switched off any suspicion.

Season 3B is turning into the season of Michaela and it's friggin amazing.

I didn't think Famke, I thought about the FBI agent (see attached pic below) who questioned kid Wes after Rose killed herself. She was one of the few who would know him as Christophe. So was Wes already a rat and the local FBI didn't know? Does this somehow bring the Mahoney family back into play? (Mama Mahoney might be another who knew Christophe.) 

I'm wondering if Nowalk is pulling a Jon Snow with Wes. At least now I think I know the source of the Wes isn't really dead rumours. There was an interview where the actors were asked who they thought killed We. Jack's response was he didn't think he was rally dead. (I'll have to track down the article). However, if Wes isn't really dead that kinda voids the genuineness of the cast reaction when they first found out who was under the sheet.

As for Connor, I loved it. Since Oliver knows everything he's no longer on a pedestal.  Connor is seeing and looking at him with different eyes. While I still think Colvier is endgame, this questioning of who he's with is refreshing. 

5 hours ago, pennben said:

I initially thought that Annalise's mom was laying out a defense for her---I'll take the fall by describing the exact scenario of my crime, we play the dementia card and say I did all those things in your house and inadvertently killed Wes when I thought I was confronting the horrible Uncle. Sorry to see it really was dementia...

Ophelia's dementia was implied last season when AK ran home. Celestine fold her she had stopped by after work and found the burners on the stove on and unattended. She mentioned she was worried about her as one of the reasons why she was okay with their father being back in the picture was a good thing because it took some of the pressure off of her to look after her mother. We the viewers (and AK ) just didn't know it was this bad.

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

And Bryan Tyree Henry as Frank's public defender! I was so happy to see him on this show!

Paperboi FTW!

 

I also think it's funny that the low key running joke is someone in the K4 always telling Simon to leave. This week it was Oliver.

One pet peeve I have and it was really overdone this week is constantly calling the K5 "kids". These are law students. Unless one of them is a child prodigy the are all between 21 - 25 years old. Comparing AK to Casey Anthony makes no sense because Wes was a grown damned man. When Bonnie was dating Asher AK chastised her about "rolling in bed with that 25 year old boy". They are all over 21, stop it show!

Random thought: Connor and Oliver looked ready to slap the taste out of Asher for pouring that liquor on the floor.  I was screaming at the tv,"Not inside!"

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx

[jvr]

8 hours ago, fellini said:

Cicely Tyson must be broke, that is the only reason I can think of that would make her want to act on this stupid show.

I was thinking a combination of boredom and like others said, getting to work with Viola. She pulls them all in even if the material is shitty.

@truthaboutluv I'm with you, I'm sticking with Laurel as the (unintentional) killer. She is either more brilliant that anyone could imagine and making sure no one will point the finger her way as the hysterical mourning gf or she really is hysterical because she knows she hurt Wes that night but he might have survived if someone hadn't set the fire (so she hopes or believes).

The idea that Wes could still be alive because he faked his death to hurt any of the K4 or Anna makes me wish he was really alive so that someone could kill him violently.

All the mentions of Famke makes me miss Eve.

Did Nate tell anyone he saw Wes at the house that day/night? I don't think he did anything but it's interesting.

[Tiger]

30 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

 

I do also enjoy that Connor continues to be an asshole when it comes to Wes. I think for LGTB representation he's a great character, because he gets to be flawed, he gets to be slutty, he gets to be an asshole, but he also gets to be sympathetic. He's neither a stereotype nor is he an idealized LGBT character. I really like that.

It's so refreshing to see, especially when another Thursday Night show is currently has a stereotype.

[Milaxx]

15 hours ago, fellini said:

Cicely Tyson must be broke, that is the only reason I can think of that would make her want to act on this stupid show. This episode was like a bad soap opera. Did Tyler Perry write this?

This "stupid show" stars Golden Globe/Tony/Emmy award winner Viola Davis, and does excellent in the ratings. At her age Ms Tyson works when she wants, including in last year's House of Cards. No one claims this is Masterpiece Theater. 

ETA: This show was also just renewed for a 4th season along with the rest of the TGIT lineup.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx

[Jel]

Viola Davis is really next level as an actor. She just continues to blow me away week after week. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I'm wondering if Nowalk is pulling a Jon Snow with Wes.

He better not, because this is a long, long way from GOT.  The only fantasy I can stand on this show is the unrealistic fuck ups in the courtroom, not a cadaver coming back to life that I've been seeing dead on the slab for weeks now. He will have most definitely jumped the shark, not to mention rolling out Alfie on just about every damn talk show to say, yeah, it's me, and I'm done. 

[Happytobehere]

9 hours ago, doram said:

Michaela was awesome in every scene. No words for how great they've made her - - - except for that bit about wishing Annalise was still in jail. #cold

Annalise's Dad telling her to own her shit was a great moment. 

Really, her cheating, family abandoning father who only returned because he is old and doesn't want to be alone, knew his brother molested Annalise but wasn't bothered by it, telling her to own her shit was a great moment.  If Annalise can't own her shit, she clearly came by it naturally.

[Primetimer]

Every time she shows up, the beans get spilled.

View the full article

[Happytobehere]

6 minutes ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Every time she shows up, the beans get spilled.

View the full article

Just a note one the Frank and Oliver section.  Oliver admitted to Connor what he did with the Stanford letter (which Connor never would have received since it was revealed that he is near the bottom of his clan, nut that's another gripe) and the phone call.  Connor being okay with it and wanting to stay with Oliver is what Oliver realize that something was wrong with their relationship dynamic, causing Oliver to break up with Connor.

[Milaxx]

From the recap:

Quote

Nate
...why did Nate bring Laurel to the morgue if he knew he'd already signed off on getting Dead Wes's corpse relocated? And why, if there was a paper trail showing that he requested the transfer, was there a tag on the replacement body that still identified it as Wes? Was this corpse switcheroo done through the system or not? Either this subplot has been sloppily written, or Nate's involvement is more complex than it seems. (Both are true, I'd say.) But if nothing else, at least we know that Nate was definitely in Annalise's house with Wes in the moments before he died. BUM-BUM-BUMMMM.

I'm pretty sure the implication was that someone forged Nate's signature on that transfer form.

Quote

 

Frank and Oliver
......

Meanwhile, Oliver successfully lies to the DA about wiping information off Annalise's phone, then reveals to Connor that he has a backup of everything that was stored there. Plus, we get confirmation that Connor knows Oliver erased his Stanford acceptance letter. That makes me feel better about their relationship, since Connor is choosing to stay with Oliver instead of being lied to. That's about as romantic as it gets on this show right now, but I'll take it.

 

We got confirmation of that at the end of 3x1. Connor came home from talking with AK and asked Oliver if it was true. Oliver admitted he did. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Really, her cheating, family abandoning father who only returned because he is old and doesn't want to be alone, knew his brother molested Annalise but wasn't bothered by it, telling her to own her shit was a great moment.

I sure as hell didn't think so either, nothing great about. Yes she needs to own her shit, but she sure as hell doesn't need that shitty father to call her on it, and not in the tone he used, no way in hell. To call her on it and gloss over his fucking pedophile brother who molested his daughter. He missed his moment to act like he gave a fuck about what that did to his daughter back then and he missed the moment again last night. He can disappear now.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Neurochick]

35 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I sure as hell didn't think so either, nothing great about. Yes she needs to own her shit, but she sure as hell doesn't need that shitty father to call her on it, and not in the tone he used, no way in hell. To call her on it and gloss over his fucking pedophile brother who molested his daughter. He missed his moment to act like he gave a fuck about what that did to his daughter back then and he missed the moment again last night. He can disappear now.

I didn't even realize that man was her father at first.  Then I remembered that he came back and Annalise said the only reason he was there was because he didn't want to be alone.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

He better not, because this is a long, long way from GOT.  The only fantasy I can stand on this show is the unrealistic fuck ups in the courtroom, not a cadaver coming back to life that I've been seeing dead on the slab for weeks now. He will have most definitely jumped the shark, not to mention rolling out Alfie on just about every damn talk show to say, yeah, it's me, and I'm done. 

The rest of the statement:

Quote

At least now I think I know the source of the Wes isn't really dead rumours. There was an interview where the actors were asked who they thought killed We. Jack's response was he didn't think he was rally dead. (I'll have to track down the article). However, if Wes isn't really dead that kinda voids the genuineness of the cast reaction when they first found out who was under the sheet.

I'm not saying I believe this is what Nowalk is doing. It was a "what if" followed by why I don't think that would work.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

This "stupid show" stars Golden Globe/Tony/Emmy award winner Viola Davis, and does excellent in the ratings. At her age Ms Tyson works when she wants, including in last year's House of Cards. No one claims this is Masterpiece Theater. 

I completely agree with this.  This is not a shit show.   Not everything is supposed to be Masterpiece Theater.

[Aquarius97]

The only way that I see that Wes is still alive, it's that the show is going to be cancelled after this season, so the end would be Wes being the only one to "get away with murder"

[DearEvette]

6 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

And Bryan Tyree Henry as Frank's public defender! I was so happy to see him on this show!

I saw him and I shouted "It's, Paperboi!!" in my onw living room.  At 10:00 at night.  Totally the break out character in Atlanta for me.  Tickled to see him in this as a lawyer.

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I really liked that Laurel's speech at the memorial wasn't that well written. It felt more like something that someone would actually say in real life at a memorial like that.

Yup.  I loved this.  I hate on tv how people get all eloquent with no preparation.  This messy speech felt real. And I love how even -- Connor?  -  was all "she should've let you write something for her."

13 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

OMG, episode is made of win! It keeps getting better, and if I side eye Oliver anymore, my eyeballs will disappear,  sneaky motherfucker. 

Michaela, oh how I love that girl and amen to the head wrap. When she said "that bitch better...."  I died laughing. She and Asher might as well get married, he's farting (he's so gross just like a man) in his sleep and her head is wrapped, I love it, love it. Now this shit is real.

 

Oliver is shady.  SHA.  DY.  He lied so smooth.  I think he was lying to them when he was sweating.  That is how much a liar I think he is.  I loved seeing the look on Connor's face when that realization dawned about how simple it is for Oliver to lie.  And if Annalise hadn't spilled the beans to Connor about the Stanford letter Oliver would have gone on lying (by omission) to Connor about that.

I Oliver in anyone's pool to be Wes' murderer?  That'd be a twist for sure.

Also I agree wholeheartedly that Michaela was MVP of the episode.  I love how every week someone has asked Aja Naomi King on twitter why Michaela isn't wrapping her hair.  Her response re:Asher and Michaela "They aren't there yet." and then finally we see they are there.  And It is lovely and natural.  I continue to be amazed how good they are together.  Just amazed. 

[helenamonster]

I really enjoyed this episode. I liked that Laurel's speech to Wes was so ill-prepared, it felt very true to life. And hey, we'd all like an opportunity to go off on the ambulance chasers/rubberneckers every once in a while. Even if Laurel's relationship with Wes hadn't turned romantic, and even if she wasn't pregnant with his child, I think she would have still been entitled to that anger. She was the only one, even within the K5, who really truly knew him and cared about him (Meggy is the obvious exception). Karla is doing great with the material.

Oh hey Simon. I was sure you were "Put On A Bus" as the trope goes but apparently your pointless ass is still at Middleton. Great!

Nooooo Ophelia! :( Why do I feel like next season Annalise will be attending her funeral? Cicely Tyson shined as usual.

Put me on the list of people who has really been digging Michaela lately.

Oh Connor. "I hope Laurel's not dead so we don't have to sit through another one of these memorials." Sorry shit isn't about you for five fucking minutes, you turd!

So it's just a full-on frame-up job of Annalise then, isn't it? Seriously, how do you misplace a corpse? Nate is definitely getting dragged into the set-up too (as others have said, the fact that they're showing him and Wes interacting this early means he's not the killer). At least Bonnie was finally able to get Annalise out.

I seriously doubt that Wes faked his death. I just don't think it fits with what the show is and where it's going. We've seen him on that slab enough times. He dead.

13 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Frank is just representing himself to get conjugals with Bonnie, right?

Well, not exactly...it's so he and Bonnie can speak as co-counsel and their conversations are privileged. I actually would be surprised if they slept together again even if/when he does get out. That felt like a one-time thing to me.

13 hours ago, Tiger said:

If Famke wasnt contractually prohibited by NBC from appearing, I'd think Eve was Wes' ICE.  

At first when I saw you use the ICE abbreviation I was thinking about how Eve posed as an ICE attorney with Rose when she was being threatened with deportation. And then I realized it was an abbreviation for "In Case of Emergency" and I was thinking that would be a really clever way to hide Eve's number in his phone (ICE=ICE), but as you said she is currently contractually prohibited from appearing on this show, so unfortunately no dice.

I don't have any guesses as to who it might be. Maybe his foster family? Although they were the ones who changed his name to Wesley, right?

13 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Until proven otherwise, I am now convinced that Laurel killed Wes. I think it was an accident and the fire was separate. So she accidentally killed him and before she could figure out what to do, the house exploded. I think her grief is over loving him yes but guilt for accidentally killing him and now lying about it. 

Yep, that's my theory too, except sometimes I entertain the idea that she may have forgotten she killed Wes. She could have banged her head in the explosion and perhaps her memory of a man/Frank running out of the basement was falsified by her assumption that Frank was involved.

5 hours ago, Milaxx said:

One pet peeve I have and it was really overdone this week is constantly calling the K5 "kids". These are law students. Unless one of them is a child prodigy the are all between 21 - 25 years old. Comparing AK to Casey Anthony makes no sense because Wes was a grown damned man. When Bonnie was dating Asher AK chastised her about "rolling in bed with that 25 year old boy". They are all over 21, stop it show!

I halfway agree with this. On the one hand, yes, to call someone a 25-year-old boy is an oxymoron no matter how old the person speaking is, and even if Annalise did kill Wes, that doesn't make her a baby killer. But I liked when Annalise called them "kids" this episode. They are this little fucked up family: Mama Annalise, Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Frank (the fact that both of them have slept with one of the kids is neither here nor there in this metaphor), and the five kiddos plus Cousin Oliver*. I get your point but I think sometimes it works within the dynamic.

*Yep, I know what I did and yes it was intentional.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Oliver is shady.  SHA.  DY.  He lied so smooth.  I think he was lying to them when he was sweating.  That is how much a liar I think he is.  

LOL, I agree, don't trust his ass and I didn't back when he had scenes with Philip during the Hapstall case.  Then when he deleted that Stanford letter, well...I question his hyperventilating/panic attack like I questioned whether Anna really baked that peach cobbler from scratch. The side eye from me at this boy is that bad.

Fans flipping out about poor, sweet Oliver being threatened by Michaela to keep his freaking mouth shut, yeah, poor Oliver, right.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I think it's more complicated than that. Her father was far from ideal... but --- how do I put this? There's a line. There's a line in the metaphorical sand of your life where your fuck-ups stop being the result of bad parenting, a bad childhood, abuse, tragedy, whatevers --- and becomes the result of your own bad decisions. Like obviously nature vs nurture and I actually believe Annalise when she said that "do you think me being here (and being a broken person) has nothing to do with what happened to the abuse I suffered"? But on the flip side, there are many people that had it worse than her, and made better decisions in their lives. And the flip of that flip side is that there are many people who had it better than her, and made worse decisions. 

So yeah, I did think her father telling her to own her shit was a great moment. Because maybe it's something that she needed to hear. Clearly, Sam's therapy was shit because that's something that a real shrink would have helped her deal with. Sometimes you just have to close that chapter in your life titled "Victim" and start a new one called "Survivor" and plan for one called "Winner". 

It's almost as if Annalise is afraid to move out of the "Victim" chapter. That's why, despite her professional success and personal charisma, she seems determined to constantly self-sabotage. 

 On the one hand what he said was what AK needed to hear, but coming from her father the statement loses a bit of steam because it's such a huge case of pot/kettle. . I think AK is very much aware of her faults. Saying she's afraid to move out of the "victim" chapter reeks of bootstrap theory to me. While being cognizant of her faults she remains stuck not only in badly ingrained habits , but she also attracts broken people. Awareness doesn't create better coping skills. While some are able to literally and figuratively say, "I will no longer do XYZ", for most that is an insurmountable thing.  I don't know if that makes this a nature vs nurture argument or not. I do know for some people no matter how hard they try, they can't get break the cycle.

37 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

.......

I halfway agree with this. On the one hand, yes, to call someone a 25-year-old boy is an oxymoron no matter how old the person speaking is, and even if Annalise did kill Wes, that doesn't make her a baby killer. But I liked when Annalise called them "kids" this episode. They are this little fucked up family: Mama Annalise, Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Frank (the fact that both of them have slept with one of the kids is neither here nor there in this metaphor), and the five kiddos plus Cousin Oliver*. I get your point but I think sometimes it works within the dynamic.

*Yep, I know what I did and yes it was intentional.

If it was just AK, I could let it slide, but all that talk in the prison about her killing "that boy" and then comparing her to Casey Anthony made it feel like she was dealing with a bunch of 12 year olds instead of grown adults.

Random thought:

When did Bonnie buy a house? It took me a minute to figure out where they were meeting because when she was dating Asher she lived in an apartment. It's nitpicky, but these things jump out at me.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx

[Tiger]

I really hope Annalise makes good on her promise to help Rose: Convicted Felon Edition, because I really want more L. Scott Caldwell.  

It seems like everything, most notable Laural's speech in Bonnie's house, is point to one person being behind everything, which makes me think it's all separate actors. 

Also, Oliver is now my # 1 suspect of who killed Wes, closely followed by Laural.  

[jvr]

What would be Olivers motive? I agree he is shady and I'm liking this new dynamic to his character, but I don't see the motive to kill Wes or set the fire (bomb). I wouldn't be mad if it was him though.

[Keepitmoving]

45 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

 

When did Bonnie buy a house? It took me a minute to figure out where they were meeting because when she was dating Asher she lived in an apartment. It's nitpicky, but these things jump out at me.

No, I thought she and Asher were at a hotel during those times, at least that's what I thought, seeing as they were keeping it a secret or trying to anyway. It always just looked like a room to me, and then he had an apt. that she came to one time, when he had money. 

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What would be Olivers motive? 

I don't know, like I don't know what his motive was for sabotaging his boyfriend's chances to go to Stanford. If it was so he could keep that feeling of a rush from being part of the Keating-5...if that was his reason, then that's a disturbing reason to screw with your boyfriends future. I mean that's my speculation for why he did that, but did he ever give  reason to Connor for why he did it? I wasn't paying that close attention to their dialogue on the matter. But that was a crazy thing to do to someone you care about/love, that is no joke. So who knows what's going on in Oliver's head. By the way, what do we know about Oliver's background?

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When did Bonnie buy a house? It took me a minute to figure out where they were meeting because when she was dating Asher she lived in an apartment. It's nitpicky, but these things jump out at me.

 

 

 

I think she always had a house, I know I've heard Anna bark at her to go home  a few times. I think a time or two she and Asher met at his place when he had an apt...Then the other times it looked to me like they were in a hotel, because they would only show the bedroom and them laying in it and the hallway just reminded me of a hotel. I don't think they were ever at her house especially seeing as they were supposedly trying to keep things a secret. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

Re: Bonnie - Ah, that makes sense.

As for Oliver. We don't much. I've only recall him mentioning his parents when Connor told the group he was positive and at least one brother last week.  He characterized himself as always dong what everyone else wants. That makes sense seeing how easily Connor talked him into giving him those emails back in episode 1 and how listening to his friends lead to him contracting HIV.  Considering we're just getting more background on Micheala and Connor, I don't mind letting Oliver cook for a while longer.

[juliet73]

I'm going with Simon as the one who killed Wes. 

[possibilities]

...and set the fire.

[Happytobehere]

If they go with Laurel as the killer, it will definitely will be an accident -- they argued about him possibly turning on Annalise, she pulls away from him, Wes loses balance and falls, hitting his head (making the initial coroner's report true).  When the house flames, Laurel is herself injured, forgetting what happened.  She most definitely saw someone leaving, and this is the person who is behind the fire.  Making the key to The "Who Dun Its" realizing that the fire and the death are not related.

I still wonder why Meggy is there, something more has to be going on; same goes for Simon.  

Whatever the reveal is, I want Atwood and Benito Martinez's characters brought to their knees.  I want her to be guilty of something and his career to be in shambles based on his railroading of Annalise and obvious abuse of power. 

Ultimately, I still think the cast needs to be trimmed, especially now that Wes is gone and so much was tied to him.  Nate lifts right out and Connor just no longer fits given his hatred of, whining about, and blaming of everyone (mostly Annalise) but him for his predicament in life.  Let next season be about Annalise rebuilding her reputation and a few of the remaining K4 stay because students are no longer chomping at the bit to be under Annalise's wing while this cloud remains over her head.  The murder of the season and Annalise's role in solving it and saving someone who was obviously doomed, getting her back on top.  This is where they can tie in the person at the university who is trying to destroy her, if that doesn't connect to the current goings on.

[Milaxx]

Not sure I like him for killing Wes, but I could definitely see him setting the fire, although I'm beginning to think they may keep him around to be the show's version of Cartman and every so often one of the K4 will tell him off and then make him leave.

[tennisgurl]

I swear to God, if Wes is still alive and just faked his death, I'm going to throw my TV out the window. Wes would be dead to be for REAL if we found out he was just screwing with everyone. Especially if it was all about freaking Rebecca.

Man, Cicely Tyson is just all kids of awesome. She and Viola are just perfect together. Just throw those Emmys at them, throw them! It was also cool to see Annalise's dad. He did a good job walking that line between trying to help, and still being an asshole who dumped his family.

It was nice seeing Annalise get her hustle back. I was sick of her just being sad and in prison. Get her back out there being awesome ASAP! I do have to question everyone acting like Annalise is a kid killer. Wes was in his 20s! Maybe they're trying to go for her killing a guy who was like a son to her, but still. I usually refer to the K5 as kids, because they're the kids in the messed up Keating family, but other people don't get to do that!

Michaela is all kinds of awesome. I love her and Asher, and how stable they've actually become. They eve have sex while her hair is wrapped! That's how you know they're for real. When did they become my OTP of this show? Weird.

Connor is such an asshole, but I still love him. I don't think he's as awful of a person as he thinks he is, and I think he's about 20 seconds from a nervous breakdown, even if he doesn't know how to shut up and stop being a dick at awful times. Also, I think he is finally understanding that Oliver is kind of shady. I don't think he killed Wes, but I do think he knows more than what he's saying. He has weirded me out since he deleted Connors acceptance letter.

I cracked up over Connor and Oliver's faces when Asher poured one out for Wes in their apartment. They're faces were both like "Dude, you know your cleaning that up right?"

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Happytobehere said:

Ultimately, I still think the cast needs to be trimmed, especially now that Wes is gone and so much was tied to him.  Nate lifts right out and Connor just no longer fits given his hatred of, whining about, and blaming of everyone (mostly Annalise) but him for his predicament in life.  Let next season be about Annalise rebuilding her reputation and a few of the remaining K4 stay because students are no longer chomping at the bit to be under Annalise's wing while this cloud remains over her head.  The murder of the season and Annalise's role in solving it and saving someone who was obviously doomed, getting her back on top.  This is where they can tie in the person at the university who is trying to destroy her, if that doesn't connect to the current goings on.

I wonder about some of the extras. For example they get well known actors like Brett Butler and Esai Morales cast as their parents and barely use them. Then we have Meggy, Simon and to a lessor degree the President Hargrove.  Nate often feels like eye candy. On the other hand, I think Connor and Oliver have some wear and tear left. I would however, love it if they could lose the FBI and just focus on Philly PD and DA's office.  I'd like to see an episode or 2 with background for K4, including further contact with their parents. Meggy can go, reduce Nate & Simon's screentime.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Milaxx