S01.E15: Jack Pearson's Son

[Johnny Dollar]

Horse Dick Duke effectively using his family connections to threaten women to sleep with him smells all kinds of law-suity, if not criminal. 

I understand the emotional reaction of viewers to Kevin throwing away the biggest opportunity of his career, but it felt very manipulative and unreal to me.  I know that manipulative and unreal are this show's go-to's, but still. 

They've made Jack into such a saint over the course of the series that his "come back to earth" moment seems forced, like the writers couldn't come up with anything more serious. Hell, Rebecca almost comes out looking like the worse person by blaming her family for the lack of a career. 

How did William manage to lock the nurse out of the house if he was bed-ridden?

[leighdear]

52 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Horse Dick Duke effectively using his family connections to threaten women to sleep with him smells all kinds of law-suity, if not criminal. 

He did not do that in any way, shape or form.  

Ok, done with Kate.  Probably all of them once I find put how Jack died.  That's the only thread holding me to this show, excepting Mandy Moore.  I actually like her character.  I keep wanting to see her morph into Hillary from "Saved".  She looks about the same 12 years later. 

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

How did William manage to lock the nurse out of the house if he was bed-ridden?

I think he's still ambulatory.  But he didn't have to do it forcefully, he could have sent her out to get something, or she went to her car, and the door locked behind her automatically.  I've needed a locksmith for that reason. 

[ByaNose]

7 hours ago, theatremouse said:

It's just so much to-ing and fro-ing. Even before I ponder the logistics, it's exhausting. Go from LA to NY. NJ to NYC.Go to camp upstate(?). NJ to NYC. NYC to NJ again. Sometimes Philadelphia. Off-off-broadway to Wall St. Half the plots here are people constantly going back and forth between home and work or one home to another home and another home. And I mean, I get not every scene should take place in the same location, of course not, but the plots are constantly hinging on people going cross town, or crossing state lines. It's like they can't move the story without someone abruptly "needing to leave" wherever the fuck they are. It's tiresome.

This is Us sort of reminds me of daytime soaps with their time travel. They can be NYC or Philadelphia in 5 minute and back. I'm still fuzzy where everyone lives in present time. I know Jack & Rebecca are in Pittsburgh past but do Randall & Jack live in Los Angeles? Does Kate live in NYC? I thought Kevin was in NYC for this play but then he was running with Randall in what looked like (or supposed) look California. I am time traveled confused. Can someone set me straight on the geography of This Is Us? I love this show but I'm also totally annoyed with it too. I might be hate watching it too but I'm not fully committed to that either. LOL!!!

Edited February 20, 2017 by ByaNose

[Aloeonatable]

Jack and Rebecca lived in Pittsburgh in years they were married. It seems that Randall and family live in New Jersey and he seems to work in NYC. Kate and Kevin lived in Los Angeles, until they went back East to see their family and so I'm guessing that Kevin's play is off-Broadway in NYC. Kate is staying with her mom, Rebecca and Miguel. Toby is visiting and probably staying in a hotel in NYC or NJ. Not sure where Rebecca and Miguel live, but I would venture to say they also now live in NJ near Randall. 

The series is filmed in Los Angeles, so the outdoor locations would look more like LA, but at least we don't see any palm trees. I guess I'm different in that I don't have a problem with the time element. Maybe because I watched Heroes in its first incarnation where characters would cross the country (and sometimes the world) in unbelievable time...and I'm not talking about Hiro and his ability to travel through time, or the Petrelli brothers who could fly. 

[DrSpaceman73]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, we know that the kids in the funeral scene are the same actors that portrayed the Teen Kids back in the Washing Machine episode, even if we were just given back shots of them. But yeah, we don't know how old they're supposed to be then. It could be 15/16, or they could push them to 19/20. But of course, the show wanted to be as vague as possible, to keep the audience guessing and to delay the information being given to the audience. I get it; they have all this time to give this information out, to tell a compelling story, and to keep the mystery going. But they might be teasing the audience too much here. Fifteen episodes in and we finally get a funeral shot, and that's just to establish that Jack's death was not recent and that it was well over a decade ago.

I guess my point is, decide if you want to be vague or not and stick to it. 

Don't give a back/side out of focus shot, as if they are still trying to hide the ages of the kids, in the scene during the episode and then come out and tell us "oh yeah they were teenagers when he died". 

I am fine if they want to keep it a mystery when it happened and that is why they were making the scene vague.  And I would be fine if they wanted to show us they were teenagers with a better shot at the funeral.  Why I don't like is them trying to make it a mystery during the show and then saying in an interview they were teenagers. 

I didn't know they were the same actors and couldn't tell that from the funeral episode.  I guess if you paid attention to the credits closely they would. 

[MaryPatShelby]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 Why I don't like is them trying to make it a mystery during the show and then saying in an interview they were teenagers. 

This drives me insane; when the showrunners can't tell the story they want to tell in the show, but would love for you to watch supplemental content or track down interviews to get your questions answered. I know this is a major thing now in TV Land, but it really ticks. me. off.

[SlackerInc]

17 hours ago, leighdear said:

But we never saw his parents or anything even remotely resembling her being asked or told to leave.   No proof he was even related to the owners.  

It happened offscreen, unless Kate was lying to Toby.

[bros402]

14 hours ago, theatremouse said:

It's just so much to-ing and fro-ing. Even before I ponder the logistics, it's exhausting. Go from LA to NY. NJ to NYC.Go to camp upstate(?). NJ to NYC. NYC to NJ again. Sometimes Philadelphia. Off-off-broadway to Wall St. Half the plots here are people constantly going back and forth between home and work or one home to another home and another home. And I mean, I get not every scene should take place in the same location, of course not, but the plots are constantly hinging on people going cross town, or crossing state lines. It's like they can't move the story without someone abruptly "needing to leave" wherever the fuck they are. It's tiresome.

 

7 hours ago, ByaNose said:

This is Us sort of reminds me of daytime soaps with their time travel. They can be NYC or Philadelphia in 5 minute and back. I'm still fuzzy where everyone lives in present time. I know Jack & Rebecca are in Pittsburgh past but do Randall & Jack live in Los Angeles? Does Kate live in NYC? I thought Kevin was in NYC for this play but then he was running with Randall in what looked like (or supposed) look California. I am time traveled confused. Can someone set me straight on the geography of This Is Us? I love this show but I'm also totally annoyed with it too. I might be hate watching it too but I'm not fully committed to that either. LOL!!!

They haven't been in California in a while. NJ to NYC is easy - depending on the part of the state they are in. I am guessing they are somewhere in North Jersey or maybe Central Jersey. William said it was a two hour bus trip to get to Philly? tbh I can't think of any buses from central NJ to Philly - there are trains he could take, though. Rebecca and Miguel stopped in on the way to the city, so I am guessing they are somewhere closer to NYC than Pittsburgh, but not in Philadelphia.

Kevin is crashing at Randall's house and needed to be able to get into the city quickly - so what kind of commute would be considered reasonable for Randall? One of the closer "nice" communities in North Jersey for someone on Wall Street is Montclair - at least with public transit, but that isn't a super good commute.

I'm guessing Kate's Fat Camp was somewhere in the Catskills.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, bros402 said:

I'm guessing Kate's Fat Camp was somewhere in the Catskills.

Adirondacks was mentioned in the show I believe. 

[ByaNose]

11 hours ago, bros402 said:

 

They haven't been in California in a while. NJ to NYC is easy - depending on the part of the state they are in. I am guessing they are somewhere in North Jersey or maybe Central Jersey. William said it was a two hour bus trip to get to Philly? tbh I can't think of any buses from central NJ to Philly - there are trains he could take, though. Rebecca and Miguel stopped in on the way to the city, so I am guessing they are somewhere closer to NYC than Pittsburgh, but not in Philadelphia.

Kevin is crashing at Randall's house and needed to be able to get into the city quickly - so what kind of commute would be considered reasonable for Randall? One of the closer "nice" communities in North Jersey for someone on Wall Street is Montclair - at least with public transit, but that isn't a super good commute.

I'm guessing Kate's Fat Camp was somewhere in the Catskills.

Thanks Bros402. I'm more clear on the geography now. I guess I hadn't thought of it much until Kevin ran a marathon to Williams work place. LOL!!

[possibilities]

On 2/15/2017 at 8:35 PM, Dowel Jones said:

I would assume that news of the opening night would spread rapidly through the theater crowd, and they might have a real problem selling tickets to future performances.  Add to which, Sloan is likely to tell him to FOAD for embarrassing her in front of the crowd and the NYT critic.  She might be able to salvage something but not with him in association.

Knowing Kevin, he'll make another grand gesture, winning the play a bonanza of publicity and total forgiveness from the cast, crew, audience, and critics, but I don't know what it could be. Maybe he'll offer to wrestle everyone in the street, or let them be Pilgrim Jack.

RE why Kate was not Kevin's go-to for jitters, I wanted it to be that they were sticking to their resolve about learning to live separate lives and not have her at his beck and call. Also, he should have thought she was at the camp. Yes, he called her, but I thought her not picking up could have been more than a contrivance and amounts to actual growth.

I agree with the sentiment that with 2 parents present, there was no good reason one of them couldn't go deal with Randall's panic attack while the other continued to talk to Kevin about his sex life. But I also think most teens would be grateful for the interruption. Kevin got out of a lecture about his sex life, which he didn't want the parents to know about in the first place! Randall's panic attack did Kevin a favor. Also, I like condoms and respect as the foundation for a "teen who is having sex" talk. Yes, there's more to say, but I give them points for starting there. Way better than most TV sex talks.

On 2/19/2017 at 0:19 PM, mansonlamps said:

What in the world could the parents have said to force her to leave?  

I got thrown out of a summer camp when I was a teen. I had honestly not known I was in any trouble until they hauled me off to "the office" to tell me I was being sent home. Apparently I was "too negative" and was "spreading negativity"-- the only thing I had said of a critical nature was that I hated something one of the counselors was doing (I don't remember what it was, but I think it was that he made us sing stupid songs I didn't like)-- and he turned out to be the son of the camp's owners.

So, from my own experience, I believe that how you make someone leave is you tell them they are no longer welcome, and that they must leave. I was a kid, but it works with adults, too. What are you to do? If you try to stay anyway, they will make your experience hell, and they can also call security. Also, it would certainly sour Kate's potential therapeutic experience to know that management wants her gone. It's just not conducive to a positive experience to try to stay once told to leave a place like that.

It's possible they did refund Kate's money. I'd think she'd be way more upset if they did not. A lawsuit is a lot of trouble, but if StableSleaze does habitually insult and come on to and then get customers booted if they talk back or refuse, eventually someone will probably be pissed enough to do an expose or something, and ruin their reputation, even if they don't bother to actually sue. It can often take a long time for this sort of thing to get stopped, though, because very often people will not want to be associated with something like a fat camp or a harassment scandal or any other thing that makes them feel vulnerable or victimized, and subjected to possible accusations that they are exaggerating, over-reacting, or even lying. 

I also thought Kate was sharp when she said that she at first believed his analysis of her, but she was able to shake it off. I think that the way she handled the surly teenager she was supposed to drive somewhere for her boss, and the way she handled Kevin's "crazy ex" who was trashing his place, shows that Kate does have experience in dealing with people who are tough and unpleasant. So I bought her rallying, and I bought her being able to shake it off once she did. But a lot of women don't have that degree of confidence in handling confrontation, and would be upset or confused, and not able to shake it off so quickly. Eventually this will catch up with the camp, but maybe they haven't been around long enough for Duke to mess with someone who gets angry enough to try to take them down. I can easily imagine them capitalizing on shaming + refund to appease most enrollees, and maybe a small hush money bribe with gag order to silence the rest... at least for a while.

[kili]

Quote

I can easily imagine them capitalizing on shaming + refund to appease most enrollees, and maybe a small hush money bribe with gag order to silence the rest... at least for a while.

We've actually seen Duke's harassment and there are viewers who think he did nothing wrong and Kate is making a big deal out of nothing (see threads on this site). I can only imagine how much tougher her case would be without video evidence of Duke's behaviour. 

The camp would probably claim that she was just upset about not losing enough weight and trying to blame their innocent son to get a refund. I can see why many women would rather not fight that battle.

[Katy M]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 1:28 AM, SlackerInc said:

It happened offscreen, unless Kate was lying to Toby.

Even if she didn't officially get kicked out by the owners, she wasn't necessarily lying to Toby.  Duke told her his parents were the owners and she was through there.  She took his word and left.  She then told Toby what she believed to be the truth, that she was kicked out.  Or, it happened offscreen.  Either way.  But, we as the viewers, don't really have proof that Duke wasn't making that up. 

 

1 hour ago, kili said:

We've actually seen Duke's harassment and there are viewers who think he did nothing wrong and Kate is making a big deal out of nothing (see threads on this site). I can only imagine how much tougher her case would be without video evidence of Duke's behaviour. 

The camp would probably claim that she was just upset about not losing enough weight and trying to blame their innocent son to get a refund. I can see why many women would rather not fight that battle.

If it happened once, I might take my son's side.  More than once, son or not, but, sorry, you're gone.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, possibilities said:

I agree with the sentiment that with 2 parents present, there was no good reason one of them couldn't go deal with Randall's panic attack while the other continued to talk to Kevin about his sex life. But I also think most teens would be grateful for the interruption.

I think the problem was that Jack is the one who calms the kids down-we saw it at Kate's birthday party, and now, again, with Randall's panic attack.  I also think that Jack felt more comfortable taking the lead on the safe sex talk with Kevin, just as Rebecca would likely have done with Kate. Therefore, Jack had to choose what to pursue, and Randall's issue seemed more critical.  I feel that Rebecca was giving Jack a look of "gee, I wish we didn't have to interrupt Kevin's talk" as he was going upstairs with Randall, but I don't think she disagreed.  I, too, hope they spoke to him again at a later time.

I wonder if they were at all conflicted wondering if Sophie's parents knew what was going on with their (16 year old?) daughter.  I assume they would want to know if Kate was sleeping with her boyfriend.

[possibilities]

Kate does have other people to corroborate her story (Duke told Toby his M.O. and we have that scene where Kate and another woman fielded his advances together), but even with that, it would be a tough sell if the owners wanted to play dirty and fight the accusations. Duke would lie, the accusers would be painted as collaborators who were either hysterics or deliberately scamming for a payout.

It's only when there are multiple, independent, sustained, repeated complaints from numerous people, that these things have an impact, barring someone recording it, or physical evidence of violent assault- and even then people will try to discredit the witnesses as having "asked for it".

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's only when there are multiple, independent, sustained, repeated complaints from numerous people, that these things have an impact, barring someone recording it, or physical evidence of violent assault- and even then people will try to discredit the witnesses as having "asked for it".

Which is the exact reason all types of abuse from harassment to rape to assault to bullying are vastly under-reported. People are afraid they will not be believed or things will be worse if they report.  So perpetrators continue their foul behavior because they can.  If Kate was tossed out of the camp on Duke's say-so to his parents, with no refund (wasn't really clear to me) there's a breach of contract.  That place didn't look cheap, no idea, it might have to be a small claims action, but at the very least she could report to consumer protection agency and/or the state body that regulates spas and camps like that.  She went to his cabin to tell him to take a hike, not with the intent to throw in the towel and leave. 

[SlackerInc]

I think it's also fair to point out that even if she can't prove it (oh, for a tape recorder), he outright admitted to carrying on in a very shady manner that seemed likely to cross some kind of legal line (at least a civil one).  I don't remember his exact words, but it was something very close to "Kate, do you know why I get away with going around here and saying and doing whatever I want?  Because my parents own this place!  You are outta here."  That's got to be an admission of some kind of guilt of something in 2017 New York State, no?

[jhlipton]

On 2/20/2017 at 2:49 AM, bros402 said:

NJ to NYC is easy - depending on the part of the state they are in. I am guessing they are somewhere in North Jersey or maybe Central Jersey. William said it was a two hour bus trip to get to Philly? tbh I can't think of any buses from central NJ to Philly - there are trains he could take, though. Rebecca and Miguel stopped in on the way to the city, so I am guessing they are somewhere closer to NYC than Pittsburgh, but not in Philadelphia.

I'm in Northern New Jersey and it tales about 20-30 minutes to get to southern Manhattan (most of which is spent in NYC).  There are a couple of bus services that run from Penn Station in Newark to Philly, and mass transit buses from here in scenic Maywood to Newark (about an hour and a half all told).

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I'm in Northern New Jersey and it tales about 20-30 minutes to get to southern Manhattan (most of which is spent in NYC).  There are a couple of bus services that run from Penn Station in Newark to Philly, and mass transit buses from here in scenic Maywood to Newark (about an hour and a half all told).

Or less, depending on where you are.  I lived in Jersey City, and it was like five minutes from the PATH station down the street to the financial district in lower Manhattan.

[bros402]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I'm in Northern New Jersey and it tales about 20-30 minutes to get to southern Manhattan (most of which is spent in NYC).  There are a couple of bus services that run from Penn Station in Newark to Philly, and mass transit buses from here in scenic Maywood to Newark (about an hour and a half all told).

I'm more familiar with Central NJ - I'm at the northern tip of the Shore. I was more trying to think of a direct bus to there, since so many transfers would just suck

[love2lovebadtv]

On 2/15/2017 at 1:08 PM, marceline said:

Can I just say that one of the things that amazes me about this show is how easily people just drop in on Randall while he's at work? People just come traipsing in to his office. It's even more amazing to me that Kevin can show up there after hours and run down the hall and nobody stops him or follows him asking what's wrong.

Also can someone clarify, did we see Kate quit her job in LA in order to move to the East Coast? I feel like she came for Thanksgiving and never left and Toby followed her and stayed.

You know those two don't have jobs lol. 

And yes,  people coming to Randall's unannounced is totally ridiculous. I have to take my building pass just to grab a cup of coffee at the shop next door to the building where I work. I  would think that people couldn't even get through the lobby without showing ID and being on a visitor list, especially after hours. 

On 2/15/2017 at 2:36 PM, PRgal said:

How did Kevin get into Randall's office after hours?  I would assume that Manhattan office towers are HIGHLY secure these days, so no pass, no entry.

I know, right.

I can barely get back in from lunch check when I leave my pass on my desk. But seriously, that just doesn't happen in the type of building where Randall works.  Usually you have to show ID and be on a visitor list to get to the elevator. In some buildings security calls upstairs to the reception desk to announce visitors or to confirm someone who isn't registered as a visitor. 

On 2/15/2017 at 2:59 PM, catrox14 said:

Even if the opening night was scuttled, it doesn't have to be the end of the play. That night is a financial loss, unless they don't refund the playgoers. But isn't Kevin financing the play himself? Sloan will be might pissed at Kevin, and might even dump him as the lead but he's still the producer. Sloan seems rather resilient to me.

I do think Sloane is resilient but  I also think she maybe has a lot to prove to herself, to the theater community,  and to her family.  This opening night was a huge deal for both of them and Kevin messed it up. 

On 2/15/2017 at 7:43 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I think it's relevant information that would have made sense to reveal at the time she started singing with that band , but she didn't because as she said twice, she knew he would go spinning.  That tells me he has spun out of control before.  From Jack's possessive viewpoint, she looks like she is hiding something because it was something.  So she was kind of in a bad spot.

Plus Kevin already has the reputation of having recently walked off his t.v. show, so this is going to be news beyond the theater world.

I hope that future episodes show if/how he recovers from this. I feel like there was little follow-up to his outburst on the Manny. 

[sasha206]

On 2/14/2017 at 11:08 PM, HeyThere83 said:

They couldn't even give the flaw of jealous Jack without Rebecca having dated the guy previously. Gotta give justification somehow I guess while at the same time putting blame at Rebecca's feet. It just reinforces the belief that women can never ever even think about themselves without being considered a selfish jerk not deserving of a family. The rare times a man takes the usual position of a woman, he is the greatest man ever to exist and deserves thousands of medals. Whereas women who do it every. single. day can barely get a thank you.

Amen!  Jack's halo is only tarnished because of his wife's so-called selfishness.  How dare he say something so hurtful as he's in the way?  And for fux sake, the Jack Pearson's son speech.  It was sooooo predictable of this show.  Kevin's nervous?!  Let's remind him he is of the Godly loins of Jack!  Given that his wife Rebecca actually was a stage performer, that discussion couldn't have included a comment about his mother?  "Hey, you're a builder's son, so yeah, you're going to knock 'em dead." No "you remind me of your mother -- she used to be nervous but then when the stage lights came on she came alive..."  Nope, it's the builder's son speech. 

And how is it that two people are about to get married but Kate can't even begin to talk about her dad's death?  She's not ready and it's been at least 15 years?  She needs some major therapy if she can't even get the words out that her father passed away from X.  Was it some shameful death?  Did he kill himself accidentally during auto-erotic asphyxiation?  

Kevin leaving the show.  Unless Randall had a history of suicidal tendencies, sorry, that's unprofessional and completely unbelievable.  Not to mention, kind of a dick move to call Kevin up right before the show and not pretend that you weren't on the verge of jumping off a ledge.

Sorry, this show is just so cloying to make a storyline that it aggravates me!

[sasha206]

On 2/15/2017 at 4:13 PM, Clanstarling said:

.As shown so far, Rebecca hasn't done anything worthy of distrust (and I'm not a Rebecca fan, ya'll). You can still trust that your partner, even while feeling some jealousy.

 

Well, we've already seen that Rebecca can lie to her husband and to her son about making contact with Randall's bio dad.

Jack may not have know that...or did he suspect she had made contact at one point?    

On 2/15/2017 at 11:25 AM, AuntiePam said:

I  didn't like Toby holding off on marriage.  He thinks Kate refused to "go deep" but she did -- she told him that she can't talk about her father's death.  That should be enough.  "Kate, what bothers you -- what do you hate talking about?"  "My father's death."  "Okay, let's talk about it."  WTF?  Accept it and move on.  

I can't stand Toby.  But if Kate can't even bring herself to mention the details of his death either he died is a shameful or horrific way or she needs some serious therapy. The death was at least what, 15 years ago?  Surely she should be able to actually describe to her fiance what the hell happened.  And if my mate couldn't talk about something like that, I would certainly recommend getting counseling.  Sure, talking about your loved one's death is difficult, but 15 years later and it's still too fresh for you?

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

Well, we've already seen that Rebecca can lie to her husband and to her son about making contact with Randall's bio dad.

Jack may not have know that...or did he suspect she had made contact at one point?    

You're right that she lied to him about that, but I was talking more about distrust on the cheating/jealousy front.

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

And how is it that two people are about to get married but Kate can't even begin to talk about her dad's death?  She's not ready and it's been at least 15 years?  She needs some major therapy if she can't even get the words out that her father passed away from X.

There has been some speculation that Jack might have died via suicide.  I mentioned on one of these boards that my dad took his own life when I was fifteen.  What I didn't mention (and haven't previously said to anyone except my ex-wife, my current wife, and a grief counselor years ago) is that the last time I saw him, I said some punk-ass teenage bullshit to him that I regret very deeply (and no, I'm not going to quote what I actually said, although I did tell those three people I mentioned).  I haven't even told my mother and sister about this, and the three times I did tell people about it IRL (most recently, in the case of my current wife, twenty years after his death) I broke down and went into an inconsolable sobbing fit.

So I guess the point is, I can't dismiss it as easily as you do.

[smores]

I was incredibly close to my grandfather, he was like a father to me in many ways.  He died 10 years ago.  My own father died 5 years ago.  Because of different circumstances with each of their deaths, it's hard for me to talk about them.  I can say it in passing, my grandfather who died, etc, but to have to explain the story of their deaths, or tell certain stories about their lives?  It's really hard and I avoid doing it unless I'm around people who will understand.  That's why I think the Toby-Kate thing was weird.  They realized they don't know a ton about each other, and then they start playing 20 questions and are just supposed to spill their deepest, darkest secrets to each other, with no build up, in public no less?  If I'm going to tell someone a story about one of my relatives (whether it's the story of how they died, or a story about them that I know is hard to tell), I need to feel comfortable and it needs to feel relevant to the situation.  I might share it if I think it would help someone I'm close to, but just ok, and what's the most embarrassing thing that happened to you in grade school?  Cool story.  How did my father die? Well . . .  Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

I can't really muster up any outrage or pearl clutching over 16 year old Kate wearing eyeliner.  I am a few years older than the big three and I was wearing it younger than that.  I'm also not clutching my pearls over 16 year old Kevin having sex.  I don't think it's necessarily ideal, but it's not exactly unusual, or the end of the world.  

Jack and Becca fighting on the face of it doesn't bother me, because I feel like everyone fights with their spouse sometimes.  But, I do think that Jack should have just spoken up and told her that he didn't want her to do the tour in the first place.  On the other hand, no one would bat an eye if the husband had to travel for business for several weeks straight, so I don't really see a problem with a wife doing a tour.  The attitude that once you have kids you have to stop anything you wanted to do and everything about them bothers me.  It's not like they are in preschool, it should be possible for her to be able to do this.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, smores said:

On the other hand, no one would bat an eye if the husband had to travel for business for several weeks straight, so I don't really see a problem with a wife doing a tour.  The attitude that once you have kids you have to stop anything you wanted to do and everything about them bothers me.  It's not like they are in preschool, it should be possible for her to be able to do this.

The difference between someone traveling for work and Rebecca doing the tour is that the former is usually the breadwinner and has a spouse who does most of the work at home. In the Pearson household, the division of labor is that Jack is the breadwinner and Rebecca does most of the housework and childrearing. If she goes on tour, she puts all of her responsibilities on Jack without relieving him of any of his. The equivalent would be if Jack wanted to take a monthlong unpaid vacation with his buddies and asked Rebecca to pay all the bills that month in addition to doing everything she does at home.

[sasha206]

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I totally get it, and even agree.  But also I lost a sibling 12 years ago in a way so awful I don't talk about it.  I don't need therapy, I've come to terms with it.  But when you tell someone the story, you know what's going through their minds, and it's painful just knowing it.  You can be over it and also not anxious to re-visit it through dialog, I think.  I think your auto-erotic asphyxiation is an excellent example.  Who wants to mention that to anyone, ever?  (No, thank god, that's not in my family's past, but I know of a family who lost a 12-year-old to that.)  So I'm guessing the writers have chosen a death for Jack that is about that painful for Kate to re-tell.  I have a feeling I'll feel like she's overreacting when we find out, though.  

First, let me say I am so sorry about your sibling!  I am currently in the grieving process myself (husband passed away from colon cancer in December).  Sometimes I feel worse for his siblings that are struggling to deal with his loss.  And I truly get not wanting to talk about death.  There have been times I'm walking my dog in the neighborhood and try to duck my neighbors just because I don't want to talk about it.  However, for Kate, this is the guy that she's going to marry.  Seemingly it would be cathartic to open up to him.  

And I think you're right though -- it won't be as much of a shocker when we find out.  I wouldn't be surprised though if he drank himself to death.  That would be a painful thing for the kids to deal with.  Perfect dad who gets lost in alcohol.  Dies of alcoholic poisoning.

Of course, the real reason she can't talk about it is so they can drag it out another 20 episodes. I will say, that was some fine acting from Metz. 

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

There has been some speculation that Jack might have died via suicide.  I mentioned on one of these boards that my dad took his own life when I was fifteen.  What I didn't mention (and haven't previously said to anyone except my ex-wife, my current wife, and a grief counselor years ago) is that the last time I saw him, I said some punk-ass teenage bullshit to him that I regret very deeply (and no, I'm not going to quote what I actually said, although I did tell those three people I mentioned).  I haven't even told my mother and sister about this, and the three times I did tell people about it IRL (most recently, in the case of my current wife, twenty years after his death) I broke down and went into an inconsolable sobbing fit.

So I guess the point is, I can't dismiss it as easily as you do.

So sorry about your dad.  

And yes, I can imagine that would be very hard to do.   But when you are about to get married to someone, seems like a very important thing to discuss especially if it seems to be the reason you struggle so much in life.  

I think the reason I easily dismiss this is because it's the writer's ploy to drag it out for as long as they can. 

[smores]

I don't think it is always the case that the traveling spouse would be the breadwinner and the other spouse does most of the work at home.  I can speak from my own life, in which case my husband and I both work fulltime.  His job does not typically require travel, however in the last few weeks, it just came up that he now will be traveling every week for the foreseeable future.  That means that if we had kids, with no notice, it would be on me to figure out the logistics of the household with him gone.  

In the case of Jack and Becca, it was something they did discuss (at least nominally, she told him she wanted to, he could have spoken up and apparently didn't).  The kids are in their teens, so don't require daycare and can feed themselves for the time that she is gone.  They can also help out with the household chores.  It's not like she's doing this with 3 kids age 4, who require help getting dressed, someone to prepare their meals, etc.  While it does put all the parenting on Jack during the tour, I'm sure there were times that the balance shifted onto Becca when he had late nights at work or a big project, etc.  That's just how life works in a marriage.  Sometimes one person has more needs at one time, other times it's the other person.  You get through that period and then balance things out again.  

[ShadowFacts]

16 hours ago, smores said:

I can't really muster up any outrage or pearl clutching over 16 year old Kate wearing eyeliner.  I am a few years older than the big three and I was wearing it younger than that.  I'm also not clutching my pearls over 16 year old Kevin having sex.  I don't think it's necessarily ideal, but it's not exactly unusual, or the end of the world.  

As for Kate's eyeliner, in an earlier episode, Randall and Kevin were talking on the phone I think, and one of them said she wasn't slutty except in her eyeliner phase, and I am loosely paraphrasing.  So I guess we're supposed to remember that and surmise that she has at least something going on besides just the wearing of the eyeliner, because that is pretty harmless by most any standard. 

[PRgal]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

There's another eyeliner comment in the football game ep.  Randall tells teen Kate that their mom isn't going to like it, while she was putting it on.  I figured it was meant to show they're younger high school age rather than older.  

There was a comment early in the series where Kevin (I think) said something about Kate having gone through a "goth" phase.  

[Sayla Vee]

Regardless of who should or should not be allowed to travel with teenagers in the home, have any of you ever had any experience with the behavior of other teenagers in the school or neighborhood as they learn a parent may not be home.  I would trust my kids implicitly but can't find a solid ounce of trust for the kids to come by the tens and twenties, loaded down with their booze.

[SlackerInc]

19 hours ago, smores said:

On the other hand, no one would bat an eye if the husband had to travel for business for several weeks straight, so I don't really see a problem with a wife doing a tour.

Wouldn't they?  I have never known any parent of minor-aged children to travel that long on business.  My mom would go out of town for conferences when I was a teenager, but that was a weekend or three days.  I know one mom who went on a week-long business trip, and that's the longest I've ever heard of IRL (not including military tours, obv.).  In addition, what @chocolatine said.  Although there is the slight complication of the fact that she presumably is making some money on this tour.  So that analogy would have to be tweaked slightly, to have Jack go on a monthlong vacation with his buddies, still completely unpaid, but he called in a favor to have someone come over and do some amount of housework while he was gone.

[smores]

I have known several people who had extended business trips, depending on what was happening with their job.  In some cases, their company might be opening a new facility, and they use people who are established to come in and help with training the new people and getting through the opening bumps.  Other people are long term contractors.  My husband was pulled to go work at another one of the company's locations for 3 weeks due to some staffing issues.  Lots of different things happen, depending on your job.  

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Wouldn't they?  I have never known any parent of minor-aged children to travel that long on business.  My mom would go out of town for conferences when I was a teenager, but that was a weekend or three days.  I know one mom who went on a week-long business trip, and that's the longest I've ever heard of IRL (not including military tours, obv.).  In addition, what @chocolatine said.  Although there is the slight complication of the fact that she presumably is making some money on this tour.  So that analogy would have to be tweaked slightly, to have Jack go on a monthlong vacation with his buddies, still completely unpaid, but he called in a favor to have someone come over and do some amount of housework while he was gone.

My longest business trip (as a mom) was 10 days. I'm not sure why military should be excluded, these are families with minor children as well. And these days it can be the mother or father who gets deployed elsewhere. I grew up in the military, and though we were very fortunate and were able to travel with my Dad most of the time, there were some extended absences. We survived, thrived, and pitched in. My brother, on the other hand, had to leave his wife with a newborn baby for his year long tour in Vietnam.

As @smores pointed out, there are lots of cases where this happens in the mundane world. But to compare apples to apples, musicians and actors are often separated from their families for extended periods (they can have more resources, but not every actor or musician is making the big bucks).

[Crs97]

I have mentioned before that my dad had to travel for work quite a bit when I was growing up - the longest was nine months overseas, then home for two weeks, then back for another three months.  Several times he had two-three month stints overseas.  When my mom started working when we were teens, she had to travel as well - typically one, maybe two, week stints. My dad never suggested that her making less money than he did meant her job or needs should be subservient to his.  We were teens; we dealt.

If Jack had any concerns, he should have raised them when she first mentioned the tour.  We know why he didn't:  He didn't want to seem like the bad guy.  Instead, he grabbed at something so that he could feel self-righteous while denying her something that was important to her.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I would exclude military families for the purpose of this discussion because when you marry someone in the active military, you have signed on to the likelihood that you and your children will be left for long periods of time. The time to decide that that is not something you are comfortable with is before you marry, not when the spouse is about to leave.

If your spouse's job unexpectedly adds on the condition that he or she must travel for long periods of time and that doesn't work for your family, then you need to discuss if your spouse can find another job. If he or she can't and that income is necessary, then you are going to be unhappy. If the income is not necessary, then you need to see if there is a way to compromise.

I wish Jack would have asked Rebecca if she could limit tours to two weeks at a time, or perhaps one week a month. Since the band can't tour at all without replacing her as vocalist, perhaps this would have been an option.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I would exclude military families for the purpose of this discussion because when you marry someone in the active military, you have signed on to the likelihood that you and your children will be left for long periods of time. The time to decide that that is not something you are comfortable with is before you marry, not when the spouse is about to leave.

Okay, I can see excluding military families for that reason, at least on the spousal front.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I feel like there is a leap being made here that somewhere in their marriage they made it clear that Jack would always have 'dibs' on the career opportunities and Rebecca would always be relegated to domestic duties.

I never said anything about "dibs". I was talking about a fair division of labor, where each spouse pulls their own weight. Of course people's circumstances change, but the couples I know (including my parents, who alternated being the stay-at-home parent for a while), always divide their responsibilities in a way that distributes the burden as fairly as possible. Rebecca is just piling more and more duties on Jack without taking on any of his, which I find extremely selfish. YMMV, of course.

[AmandaPanda]

Let's move the discussion of division of household responsibilities to the Social Issues thread. 

[possibilities]

My thing with Jack is that he didn't tell her his problem until the night before she was supposed to leave. That is just flat out way too late to change your mind and drop a veto on someone. He's whinging to Miguel about how he doesn't want her to go, but she has no idea at all, and that's not fair. I know they played it that he objected because he found out about her history with one of her bandmates, but we know that he was upset about the situation before then, which to me makes it likely his explosion over the brief fling 19 years ago was just a convenient excuse, and basically a dicky passive aggressive move, to try to manipulate her into feeling guilty over a red herring because he doesn't have the guts to be honest with her, either.

[Big Mother]

I'm late to the party and maybe this question won't get much traction in this thread but I'll try.

Presuming that Jack has been dead for about 20 years, it surprises me how forceful his memory and presence are still to his adult children. Fifteen is still a young enough age that memories can dim in the ensuing 20 years. Jack was missing from their lives in some of their most crucial years - high school, college, early adulthood. Memories do dim and fade. Time does heal wounds and grief does recede to the background over 2 decades. So I'm kind of confused why the kids are still so gripped by the spectre of their father. Or is it the fact that he died most tragically, and they possibly blame their mother for driving him out (if he did die in a drunk driving accident, as people speculate), which is why they are not on best terms with their mother?

Is this being discussed in a speculation thread? I don't want to post in the wrong thread.

[Sake614]

@Big Mother, I can only speak for myself, but my dad's been gone 22 years and my memories of him are just as strong as they were when he was alive. And while my grief may have receded a bit, I still miss him terribly. Granted I wasn't a teenager but it seems apparent to me that in this case, Jack was a very strong presence in their lives and his death left a big hole, especially for Kate. She was very much daddy's little girl and has already been shown to have a strained relationship with Rebecca.

[SlackerInc]

12 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

Presuming that Jack has been dead for about 20 years, it surprises me how forceful his memory and presence are still to his adult children. Fifteen is still a young enough age that memories can dim in the ensuing 20 years. Jack was missing from their lives in some of their most crucial years - high school, college, early adulthood. Memories do dim and fade. Time does heal wounds and grief does recede to the background over 2 decades. So I'm kind of confused why the kids are still so gripped by the spectre of their father.

My dad died when I was 15, over a quarter century ago, but he still looms very large in my mind.  Not in a crippling way--even days after his death, I was hanging out with friends and having fun with them--but in a very consistently recurring foreground way.