S02.E11: Turncoat

[lurker22]

45 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Rip going for the kill with Sara showed he considers her the biggest threat on the team. And now like most others he saw how hard it is to actually kill her. 

Even when he was Captain, it was Sara that held the team together. 

Well, even when Rip was Phil, Sara was the hero of his story. So it would make sense that as a villain, he would try (and thankfully not succeed) to take out the hero.

[kdm07]

Mick was golden (again) from start to finish but what really had me rolling with laughter was Tiny Ray being chased by a rat.

I knew Sara wouldn't stay dead (I'm sure Berlanti & Co won't ever make that mistake again) but the way Rip just...killed her was really well done. Evil Rip is the best version of Rip so far.

Sara & Jax, the bromance, and Sara & Stein, the father/daughter relationship, continue on and I hope they never ends.

Nothing to say about Nate & Amaya as once I realised what was happening, I skipped the scene.

[tennisgurl]

Another good episode from the Legends gang! This show is just ridiculous and I love it

Holy crap, Evil Rip is all kinds of scary. And kind of hot. But mostly scary. Many kudos to AD. He has played Rip, Phil, and Evil Rip in one season, and has done a great job at making each iteration a unique, interesting character. Even with Evil Rip, who is, in some ways, recognizable as normal Rip. Its Rip, but without any of his good qualities or his compassion and feelings for a teammates. But, as much as I like super competent scary bad guy Rip, I hope they can fix his brain soon. I miss real Rip, and he is just going to feel awful about all of this when he gets back to normal. Also, Jax and Sara couldn't have just shot him in the leg or tried to knock him out? Get his brainwashed ass back to the ship (that can fix DEATH) and cure his brain!

Nate and Amara huh? That...was a thing that happened. I like Amara, and I have come around to Nate, and the actors have good chemistry, but...priorities guys! Sara is dying and Washington is about to get hung! Have sexy times later! Also, the old "create body heat and have some sex" thing? I'm sorry, have we wondered into fanfic land?

There were lots of fun moments, like Ray being chased around by a rat that roars like Godzilla (and then he made friends with it and gave it to Mick as a present! Awwwww), Rays chore chart, Jax using home alone tricks to defeat the British, and his relationship with Sara, "Hitler ruins everything", lots of good things. I really do love this show, even when it does things that I don't totally get. Its just so much fun, and the characters are so great, I can let a lot slide.

Mick really is the hero we deserve. And he's a real American hero now, officially! Can we get Mick narrating the opening of all DC shows now, at least once a season? Pretty please?

[johntfs]

18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I hated it for that and because Nate is such a Mary Sue that it was obvious that he was going to get the only heterosexual girl on the ship.  So unearned.

I don't know.  Figure if Amaya was going to be "intimate" with anybody, it'd be someone who had at least an academic understanding of her time.  Also, Nate would strongly remind her of one of her teammates.  Besides, it doesn't have to be a "true love."  It could just as easily be "true lust."  Plus, it'll be fun if Amaya goes back to the 40s, Nate goes to 2017 and meets her again as an old woman and she gives him a "Yep, sonny-boy.  I seen ya nekkid" look just before introduces him to their grand-daughter.

Also, while Sara might prefer females these days, she is still bi.  Unless Oliver has gone through more changes than any of us ever expected...

[Sakura12]

It should be interesting when they get Rip back. He'll feel so much guilt for killing Sara while Sara probably forgave him already because it's not like he's the first person to kill her and she's still walking around. I wonder if they'll give him his decent human being memories back or he'll realize he's being a psychotic asshole and decide to go back to his old team.  

[FurryFury]

Sara should totally be the one to rehabilitate Rip after he's back. Would make lots of sense, considering both her League past and the stuff she's done after she was resurrected. 

That was a fun episode, and I liked the Rip/Sara/Jax interplay a lot. Nate continues to be the weakest link, however. He just rubs me the wrong way and the writers like him way too much. He's the Wesley Crusher of this show.

Edited February 9, 2017 by FurryFury

[jhlipton]

Add to the kudos for "Evil Rip" and the Mick fun.

Just now, tennisgurl said:

Jax and Sara couldn't have just shot him in the leg or tried to knock him out? Get his brainwashed ass back to the ship (that can fix DEATH) and cure his brain!

I hate when shows pull the "idiot ball" stuff like this.  Why did Jax take a 1776 pistol with him when there was a perfectly good machine gun aboard the Waverider?  It marred an otherwise good episode.  

[Maverick]

 Stein pointed out that all the hand weapons on board the Waverider were incapacitated.  The real question is, why isn't advanced technology from the future hardened against an EMP?

[squidprincess]

I handwave that as being a future EMP device, rather than a modern one.  Rip knows the Waverider and the crew in and out.  I have no problem with the idea that he could obtain or create a device that could specifically take out future technology.  

Edited February 9, 2017 by squidprincess

[Spaceman Spiff]

I enjoyed this episode except for the Nate/Amaya hook up. I was hoping that the brief glimpse of that scene from a trailer was going to end with her just trying to keep him warm from the dunk in the water, but then they went there. I also appreciated minimal Sarah. It really lets the others shine as I think they have a tendency to make her too Mary Sue-ish. Ray, Mick, Jax and Stien were the real heroes of this episode. I did like Sarah telling Jax she wasn't saving Rip but saving him.

Some very funny moments. Mick telling Ray  you'll be a toy in a Christmas stocking and Washington I bet a hundred of you. Ray and Mick wearing the crowns during Xmas dinner. Nate telling Amaya seals are cute.

Lego Flash "I'm the fastest man alive"

Lego Batman "Watch how fast I say NEXT."

[zannej]

I must be in the minority because I found this one disappointing. I enjoyed the Legion of Doom one so much that I missed Damien and Malcolm this time around.

I found Mick's intro to be entertaining. Rip was good as a villain. It looks like Eobard is still using his speed. Either they forgot about him not using his speed, or that was only for that bank part where he was trying not to be found and he's back to his schedule of trying to avoid Black Flash. He did seem highly amused with Rip as a bad guy. His glee over Rip killing George Washington was funny. Speaking of which, why did people NOT kill him on the spot for shooting their general?

I might have enjoyed this more if not for the garbage with Nate and Amaya. It seemed too forced. Just telling a person that things are different in the future is not enough to change their mind about something that was ingrained in their upbringing and culture as they knew it. If someone was raised in a time where casual sex is taboo, it can be hard for them to just let it go even if intellectually they accept it as ok. Amaya seems to have a certain code of ethics and it was completely out-of-character for her to have casual sex with Nate-- especially because of the timing for it. It was like a very bad fanfiction. I think part of the problem is there is something about Nate I just don't like. Maybe it's his hair or his face, but I just don't really like him. He's not really convincing to me as being very intelligent and he lacks charisma. I also don't like that they can't seem to have a female on the show without pairing her with one of the males at some point and then making her in to an object of desire and angst for one of the male characters. It's like a female character can't exist on the show without being some sort of prize for a male. Last season we had the guys competing over Kendra. It's a disservice to all of the characters involved.

As for the George Washington aspect, some of it I found entertaining, but I'm not really comfortable when shows fictionalize real people. I don't like fanfics about actors/actresses because I feel it crosses a line. And for some reason, when a show or movie takes a real historical person and has them act in ways that I think they probably would not act (or just don't know if they would act that way) it bugs me a little. Not sure why. So that inability to have suspension of disbelief hindered my enjoyment.

It's still better than last season though.

Did anyone else wonder how the hell there was a rat on the Waverider? How did it get on the ship?

[MissLucas]

The intro alone made this episode a winner. Even badly-timed out-of-character sex couldn't bring it down (though it was a terribly bad idea bordering on character assassination). Luckily Mick being awesome throughout the whole thing and evil but effective Rip worked as good distractions.

And what is it about Arthur Darvill and military garb? On Doctor Who most people were 'meh' about Rory until the moment the show put him into a centurion outfit - instant swooning ensued. Same here, the redcoat did what the hero-coat (surprisingly) never achieved. The writing did help of course and he seems to have the time of his life playing evil Rip. It sucks for the other Legends but I do hope the show manages to keep brainwashed Rip around for a while.

[jhlipton]

10 hours ago, squidprincess said:

I handwave that as being a future EMP device, rather than a modern one.  Rip knows the Waverider and the crew in and out.  I have no problem with the idea that he could obtain or create a device that could specifically take out future technology.  

They should have a Grimmabego full of weapons which work on different armor and under different constraints.  That way no matter what they're up against (underwater Roman centurions? No problem!), they have something that would work.  

And Gideon (a) should be hardened against EMPs and (b) have a back-up generator/power source just in case.

[zannej]

How would an EMP device lock up mechanical things like machine guns and pistols though?

I could buy that Eobard would know enough about Gideon and the Waverider to know how to disable the ship, but making non-electric weapons fail to work doesn't make sense.

[squidprincess]

My guess would be that Rip created the device, whatever it was, not Eobard.  (Per Eobard, Rip created the first Time Sphere, so he's clearly got some inventing skill.)  So I can buy that it was designed in a way that let them also short-circuit the atom suit and firestorm...thing.  It's comic book logic, not real world logic.  :-)

I didn't think the device did take out the machine guns or pistols though.  It was just that Jax was able to get the drop on Rip's incompetent henchmen.

Edited February 9, 2017 by squidprincess

[twoods]

That was a fun episode. I am digging bad Rip but hope he gets de-brainwashedby the end of the season because I miss him with the team. Jax got to shine, which I loved. 

I like Nate and Amaya but wish they only had the hypothermia scene and not added the sexy times. The body warming was pretty hot and that would have been enough to start this ship without rushing it.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

I didn't think the device did take out the machine guns or pistols though.  It was just that Jax was able to get the drop on Rip's incompetent henchmen.

Jax bypassed one of the "idiot moves" I hate -- not taking an enemies gun after they're disabled -- only to leave it , and the second one, after the second minion was dispatched.  But the first minion fired it after the EMP, I think 

[Sakura12]

I can just go with Jax wasn't thinking clearly since he just watched Sara get murdered. So he grabbed the first weapon he saw and went after Rip. There was no plan he was fueled by rage and grief. Which I can buy from a 20 year old kid that is not a murderer. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Sakura12

[Argenta]

11 hours ago, zannej said:

I must be in the minority because I found this one disappointing. I enjoyed the Legion of Doom one so much that I missed Damien and Malcolm this time around.

Not just you. I said in last week's episode thread that I was worried the 'Legion of Doom' might make any further episodes feel like a letdown, because I like the bad guys and their POV best of all, and that's pretty much what has happened. 

I was happy to at least see Eobard (apparently relaxed and smiling) at the start, but I missed Malcolm and Damien as well, though. Couple of things I noticed: yes, Eobard is still using his speed, and unlike the others, he never dresses in period clothing. 

Anyway, onto the positive. 

-Mick's opening narration was, as many have noted, a little gem. No punches pulled. Just so very...Mick. 

-Arthur D gives a great performance as evil!Rip - while he's not physically imposing, I felt real menace from him. He was stone-cold, focused, and had no fellow feeling left for the Legends at all. I'm kind of happy that he got part of the Spear back after all the effort he put in. 

-I liked the actor who played Washington.

-The Christmas dinner scene was fun and cute. (I found myself wondering if the Legion did anything to mark Christmas...)

-Pet rat. I have no idea why it was on the Waverider to start with, but rats are clever little opportunists so if it stowed away somehow from one of their trips, it would have found a way to survive. Now Mick has a furry little friend. I hope he'll name it Len in memory of his partner. 

See, overall I actually did enjoy this week's installment; it's just that for villain-fixated me it couldn't compare to the high of the previous week. 

I agree with all those who disliked the Nate/Amaya hook-up. I definitely think it was out of character, especially for a 1940's gal, and felt contrived.

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, Argenta said:

[sorry, double-posted by accident. Is there a delete post feature?]

No, just report your post and ask the mods to delete it.  That's what I do.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I'm enjoying this show over the other DC shows because it mixes humor with some darkness and doesn't take itself seriously, I like when shows/movies have that balance. That's why I like the Marvel movies. Arrow is to doom and gloom, Supergirl is too fluffy and Flash takes itself too seriously.  LoT has it's issues but it manages to be an enjoyable ride, I always find myself smiling after the episode ends. 

[diebartdie]

17 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

<SNIP>I also appreciated minimal Sarah. It really lets the others shine as I think they have a tendency to make her too Mary Sue-ish. Ray, Mick, Jax and Stien were the real heroes of this episode. I did like Sarah telling Jax she wasn't saving Rip but saving him.

Agree with you 100 percent! Hopefully TPTB get this too because even though Sara is probably the most loved character (weirdly Mick being a close second) they've got to keep her limited otherwise....she's Honor Harrington (anyone get the reference?)

[RobertDeSneero]

This episode really drove home the idea that Mick is the straight-talking, not fancy, non-PC bad-ass that some people might view as the ideal American.  I want to see a change to the timeline that shows us President Rory.

[yellowfred]

I feel like I wouldn't have minded the Nate/Amaya thing if they'd gotten caught up in a moment or something (or, if there'd been any real build up to it), but instead it was this half-hearted "well, we're already naked, why not have sex?"  I guess the idea was that it had all the build-up and emotional investment of a tinder hook-up, which I guess is fine, even if it's not all that interesting to watch.  Still, I agree with everyone who's said that they should have done that on their own time.

Overall, I felt like the "Dealing with evil!Rip" section of the episode worked a lot better than the "Saving George Washington" part (and not just because the "Saving George Washington" part had the Nate/Amaya hook-up).  In fairness, I have a bit of a weakness for "our former friend who knows us super well and who we still care about is now trying to kill us" type storylines, so I'm sure that's part of it, but it felt like there just wasn't a lot of urgency to the George Washington side of things.  I mean, it seemed like a bigger deal that time that George Lucas almost didn't make movies.  Also, their version of George Washington wasn't particularly well drawn, which didn't help matters any.

The evil!Rip stuff was a lot of fun.  I was kind of curious how the "Rip is evil now" reveal would go, but I definitely did not expect him to shoot Sara like that.  It was cool getting to see Jax take over while she was down.  They've really developed how much Jax and Sara trust and believe in each other this season, so it was nice to have an episode where it was more at the forefront.  Also, Jax has been overdue for a focus episode and getting to watch him go full Home Alone was fun.  

On a side note, Sara needs to stop dying all the time.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:20 AM, scarynikki12 said:

Nate finally did something I liked!  He threw in Hamilton as being super important to the Revolution and founding of America when they were talking up Washington.  Then he threw it away later with Amaya but it still happened.

I assumed he was talking about the musical.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:51 PM, jhlipton said:

On 2/8/2017 at 4:50 PM, tennisgurl said:

Jax and Sara couldn't have just shot him in the leg or tried to knock him out? Get his brainwashed ass back to the ship (that can fix DEATH) and cure his brain!

I hate when shows pull the "idiot ball" stuff like this.  Why did Jax take a 1776 pistol with him when there was a perfectly good machine gun aboard the Waverider?  It marred an otherwise good episode.  

Whatever he had with him, he should have shot Rip in the leg, and then retrieved the piece of the Spear of Destiny.  If he and Sara could carry him back to the ship, all the better.

 

On 2/9/2017 at 7:02 PM, Argenta said:

Arthur D gives a great performance as evil!Rip - while he's not physically imposing, I felt real menace from him. He was stone-cold, focused, and had no fellow feeling left for the Legends at all.

He said that Sara meant nothing to him, but he seemed to retain some feeling for Jax, or he would have shot him after he told him the spear's location, unless he thought that Jax might have lied to him again so he might still need him alive.

On 2/9/2017 at 7:02 AM, zannej said:

His glee over Rip killing George Washington was funny. Speaking of which, why did people NOT kill him on the spot for shooting their general?

Maybe Eobard whisked him away?

Edited February 12, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Sakura12]

I think he kept Jax alive in case he lied about where the spear is. He did try to shoot him a couple time but I don't think he really thought of Jax as threat. Sara was a threat that's why he was always going for the kill with her. I did like Rip's surprise to see Sara alive again. He now knows like most others how hard it is to actually kill her. I means she's drowned twice, ingested snake poison, took three arrows to the chest, hit her head on a garbage dumpster, got shot in the gut and had her neck snapped. Yet, she's still walking around fighting the good fight. 

[squidprincess]

It is interesting though.  Eobard had actually ordered Rip to kill them all and get the spear.  He could have taken Sara out with a head shot in the beginning.  He also could have shot Martin.  But instead he seems to have prioritized the spear over making sure his former allies were dead.

Edited February 10, 2017 by squidprincess

[Mellowyellow]

On 2/8/2017 at 4:25 PM, Proteus said:

LOL, if you didn't see it yet don't let this thread spoil you.

Bahahahaha I finally saw it after backing out of the thread!!!!! Oh it was just too cute! And he caught it in the end too!!!!!''

I like Amaya well enough and Nate doesn't bother me but I'm not a huge fan so I was really happy they whacked these two together and gave Ray back to Mick instead of having him hang out with Nate all the time. I hope this continues! Was so happy early in the episode when Ray approached Mick about the crumbs he was leaving around. I was like "OMG They are actually going to write their bromance again!"

I really love this show. I enjoy the villains this season and the general plot but mainly I love this show for all the friendships that they have in it. And Ray! Ray just makes me smile when I see him onscreen! Ray being chased by rats and dinosaurs is the icing on the cake!  

[lurker22]

17 hours ago, yellowfred said:

On a side note, Sara needs to stop dying all the time.  

That's Sara's thing now. She dies, but she always comes back.

I feel like this evil version of Rip is what he could have become had he let the grief of losing his wife and kid completely consume him. What he said to Jax at the end, sounds like someone who has lost all hope. That's the alternate route he could have taken, compared to what he told Sara in S1, in the episode where they were dancing, something about being better (can't remember exactly what he said).

If the Legends can't de-brainwash Rip using any technological device and has to resort to "natural" means, then Sara is the best person to bring back the old Rip. Despite everything she's been through, she still has hope that things would turn out for the better. And once old Rip is back, who better to absolve his guilt over the things he's done while evil than the person he killed?

One small thing that struck me as odd was when Jax was pointing his gun at Rip, before Sara showed up, Rip was all smug and "you don't have the guts to kill me". But after Sara showed up, he seemed to change his mind and thought Jax could shoot him, because he said "you better listen to your friend". Why the change? I'm probably overthinking it.

[squidprincess]

I read the scene differently.  As I saw it, before Sara came up, Rip was goading Jax to kill him.  He even looked vaguely disappointed when Jax didn't, and said something about him being weak.   His change in attitude came about when Sara appeared.  Possibly because, on some level, he recognized that he hadn't killed her after all (or rather, she got better again.)

Edited February 11, 2017 by squidprincess

[BaggythePanther]

This is a bit random, but after Mick's great intro I was hoping they'd do another gag. Early in the episode, when the team found out that George Washington had been killed and America didn't gain its independence I was hoping this timeline would start to "set", the way it did in the George Lucas episode. In this timeline America would still be considered part of Britian so I thought I'd be funny if Jax  and Amaya suddenly developed British accents as a result of the timeline changes.

Otherwise, the episode was great. My only question is, how would restoring power on the Waverider give Firestorm their powers back?

[legaleagle53]

9 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

Otherwise, the episode was great. My only question is, how would restoring power on the Waverider give Firestorm their powers back?

It wouldn't.  The EMP knocked out Firestorm's powers independently of the Waverider, just as it knocked out Ray's suit so that he was stuck in miniature form.  In fact, the original idea was for Firestorm to merge so that he could jump-start the Waverider with his powers, and it wasn't until Martin and Jax tried to merge that they discovered that the EMP had also negated their ability to do so.

[MarkHB]

On 2/8/2017 at 9:48 AM, squidprincess said:

 Only JSA, Compromised and Chicago Way had any real movement on the metaplot.  Shogun, Abominations, and Outlaw Country were complete filler (albeit fun filler that let us explore group dynamics and Sara's growing leadership role.)    There's no real reason that some of those episodes couldn't have been cut or consolidated for a greater sense of momentum.

I'm just the opposite, really.  I'm interested in the metaplot and want to see how it turns out, but I tend to enjoy standalone episodes more.  Solve the problem in 42 minutes and move on to a different one next week! :)

 

On 2/8/2017 at 0:56 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

Seriously, they need to have that be the new opener for this show. "Half the time we screw things up even worse." Good to see someone involved with this show acknowledge it. lol

To be fair, in interviews, etc. the writers have always said that that was the whole idea.  That's why I call it "The A-Team with a time van."

[squidprincess]

29 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

I'm just the opposite, really.  I'm interested in the metaplot and want to see how it turns out, but I tend to enjoy standalone episodes more.  Solve the problem in 42 minutes and move on to a different one next week! :)

My point wasn't whether or not it's better to have metaplot or standalone episodes.  :-)  It was just that, before Darvill's return, we had very little movement on the metaplot at all.   There are ways to give even standalone episodes some movement for the metaplot.  I think we saw that in JSA and Compromised.  Magnificent Eight was a good example last year.  The main adventure was standalone, but there was the ongoing thread of the hunters, and the Pilgrim's appearance at the end.  They could have incorporated something like that in Shogun, Abominations or Outlaw Country, but chose not to.

There was more motion in Raiders of the Lost Art alone than in all of the first half of the season put together.  Good or bad, it definitely feels like they're making up for lost time.

[MarkHB]

On 2/10/2017 at 10:00 PM, lurker22 said:

That's Sara's thing now. She dies, but she always comes back.

"There must be a trademark infringement suit in there somewhere!" -- Malcolm

[Sakura12]

They should just give Sara, Captain Jack Harkness's powers. It could be a side effect of using the LP to resurrect people, it keeps bringing them back forever. 

[feverfew]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:27 AM, squidprincess said:

I read the scene differently.  As I saw it, before Sara came up, Rip was goading Jax to kill him.  He even looked vaguely disappointed when Jax didn't, and said something about him being weak.   His change in attitude came about when Sara appeared.  Possibly because, on some level, he recognized that he hadn't killed her after all (or rather, she got better again.)

I might be grasping at straws, because I want the good Rip back sooner rather than later, but it almost felt like...suicide by cop? A little bit of the real Rip peeking out, daring Jax to kill him. I feel like there was something in his actions with Sara as well, almost like affection (I mean, right before he snapped her neck, so obviously it didn't take hold long enough to matter). Or maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there. But I do think it's significant that the two characters who he had bonded most with as good!Rip, were the ones dealing with him this episode.

And like @lurker22 wrote, maybe it won't be as easy to fix Rip as it was to break him. Actually I think I would prefer it that way: Rip finding his own way back (with the help of Sara) rather than a magic wand waving all that's happened aside. It'll give Darvill something interesting to do - and would parallel nicely with the Cronos-storyline from last season as well as giving Rip a reason to connect with Mick  (and even more with Sara).

Uh, and add me to pile of people who did not like Nate and Amaya hooking up during a mission. Time and place, people! I can take or leave Nick, but it actually made me angry on fictional Amaya's behalf. I can't believe a woman who has shown again and again how deeply commited to the cause she is, would jeopardize the mission for a Tinder hook-up (tm @yellowfred). This feels like your basic character assassination

Edited February 13, 2017 by feverfew
The most misplaced hook-up in history

[Sakura12]

I do think AD played it as for half a second old Rip saw Sara, then evil Rip took back control. 

I did like evil Rip's look of surprise when Sara showed up alive. He did tell her she's the strongest person he knows and now he knows how true that is. Even death does not bring her down. 

Of course now 2 out of the 4 LoD members have killed Sara. Do you think they will all try? She can be like Kenny from South Park. Oh no they killed Sara! Then she surprises everyone by showing up alive. 

[blackwing]

Enjoyed this episode a lot.  This was the first time that Mick Rory did the narration, right?  I feel like we have heard Victor Garber over and over but glad we are hearing from others.  Loved Mick's "who writes this crap" bit.  

I guess I didn't mind Nate and Amaya.  Nate is a dork, but I much prefer him to the infinite toolness that is Ray Palmer.  I have greatly disliked Ray Palmer, Brandon Routh and his crazy eyes ever since he showed up on "Arrow".  Nate and Amaya getting together is somewhere that Ray didn't get with Amaya, so I'm all for anything that sticks it to Ray.  I loved Ray's look of shocked awareness/jealousy when he saw that there was something going on between Nate and Amaya.

[kathyk24]

I can't stand Ray I think he's a male Mary Sue. I couldn't take his whining when he didn't have his suit. I have no issues with Nate at all.

[zannej]

One thing I thought of on the Nick and Amaya thing-- they waited for their clothes to dry so they could continue. but it can take hours or sometimes days (depending on temperature and humidity) for clothes to dry properly. (My frickin' dryer is broken right now and I live in a humid area so it took two days for my clothes to dry). It would have been more prudent for Nate and Amaya to have hightailed it back to the ship to change clothes. Or they could have called to see if someone could bring the ship closer to them. Instead they wasted a lot of time and decided to just randomly have sex at one of the most inappropriate times. It was just way too forced and unnatural.

If they spend the rest of the season having Nate pining after Amaya, I might puke.

[dkb]

On 2/7/2017 at 10:17 PM, squidprincess said:

How is brainwashed Rip Hunter the most effective member of the Legion of Doom by far?  Eobard must be wondering why he's even bothering with Darhk and Malcolm at this point.  Unless it's to keep Rip from deciding he should be in charge.

I loved the episode, but it was so hard to watch in some ways.

And honestly, I really hated the Nate and Amaya bits.  I mean, I might have thought they were cute if they weren't happening while other teammates were fighting for their lives.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 10:27 PM, Sakura12 said:

I kind of saw Stein thinking of Sara as another daughter. 

Nate is still the most useless team member, I really hope we lose him instead of Amaya. Sara died while he was trying to get more sexy times. At least Amaya remembered that the world was in danger. 

 

On 2/7/2017 at 10:37 PM, Proteus said:

I loathed Nate and Amaya.

Other than that, excellent episode.

Evil Rip is scary. He killed Sara.:( But AD is killing it.

I loved Ray and the rat.

Also loved Jax this eppy.

 

 

On 2/8/2017 at 0:03 AM, Maverick said:

 Wow, the Nate/Amaya stuff was just...there are no words.  Nate didn't have much in the positive column to begin with but that was straight up character assassination for Amaya.   She's been consistently portrayed as focusing on avenging the man she loved.   But hey, after a Cliff Notes intro to Tinder and casual sex she decides 'hey, a roll in the sack with my team mate's grandson is totes cool.'  I mean what, did she summon up a dog in heat?   The whole thing was bad enough on it's on, but then that have this foolishness going on during a crisis.  The ship's incapacitated, as is half the team.   They're being stalked by a former ally who knows them inside and out and their current mission to ensure America is still born.   Yeah, totally the setup for sexytimes.  Nate deserved to be bittchslapped back to the Stone Age for suggesting 'hey, do we have time for another go?'.    What's a worthless douchebag.   

 

On 2/8/2017 at 2:58 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Nate and Amaya surprised me since it turned out that she was the one looking for chill rather than Nate.  Nate still bugs me.  As does the random and very handy abandoned tent and the very lax attitude they had toward the mission.  I know it was only Mick and some brainwashed guy they had no loyalty to, but what about poor Washington?  Even if they didn't care about the other guys, they should have been more motivated to fix history.  They didn't know he wasn't going to get hanged 'til dawn.  

Note to Sara, Nate makes other team members dumber.  

 

On 2/8/2017 at 9:42 PM, FurryFury said:

That was a fun episode, and I liked the Rip/Sara/Jax interplay a lot. Nate continues to be the weakest link, however. He just rubs me the wrong way and the writers like him way too much. He's the Wesley Crusher of this show.

 

On 2/9/2017 at 7:02 AM, zannej said:

I might have enjoyed this more if not for the garbage with Nate and Amaya. It seemed too forced. Just telling a person that things are different in the future is not enough to change their mind about something that was ingrained in their upbringing and culture as they knew it. If someone was raised in a time where casual sex is taboo, it can be hard for them to just let it go even if intellectually they accept it as ok. Amaya seems to have a certain code of ethics and it was completely out-of-character for her to have casual sex with Nate-- especially because of the timing for it. It was like a very bad fanfiction. I think part of the problem is there is something about Nate I just don't like. Maybe it's his hair or his face, but I just don't really like him. He's not really convincing to me as being very intelligent and he lacks charisma. I also don't like that they can't seem to have a female on the show without pairing her with one of the males at some point and then making her in to an object of desire and angst for one of the male characters. It's like a female character can't exist on the show without being some sort of prize for a male. Last season we had the guys competing over Kendra. It's a disservice to all of the characters involved.

 

^^^ All the above. I know I always have something negative to say about him, but I really don't want to dislike a character on this great show, especially not one of our heroes; but I just can't like him or even tolerate him. He is soooo grating to me. Him and Amaya are both new to the team but the disparity, to me, between their importance and screen team is jarring. Nate is always there, being annoying front and centre, while Amaya has way less time on screen. 

When he said that sometimes he wishes he could leave the Waverider, I was like me and you both buddy, me and you both! Only I would want him to leave forever. 

He was actually doing alright on the Nate annoyance meter until that horrible scene with Amaya, and especially the "no time for another round?" with a stupid smile on his face. I was like what the hell is wrong with him? He really does not care about the team in any way, its all about him; he gets to live his dreams and became a superhero, but he really does not seem a part of the team to me. He usually acts annoyed with the rest of them, like their beneath him because they don't know certain things. In this one it was all about him hooking up with Amaya, I mean hellooo one of your teammates and an important figure in American history are in danger, why would you even ask? Get up and go get them, and then ask about round 2 after everyone is safe. 

What really pisses me off is, if the rumors are true, and they will have rotating casts each year, then I can see them losing Amaya after she gets her revenge, but stupid stupid Nate staying. Amaya has her job with the JSA but Nate was a nobody before he came on board, but now he has his Citizen Steel powers, and I can't see the show wanting to lose a character with those powers. I also can't see Nate saying I had my adventures and now I want some peace, like the Hawks did either, which means he will be here to annoy me some more next year. Sigh.

YMMV. I know it seems like I hate this dude, but I really don't. Nick Zano was Penny's boyfriend on Happy Endings and I thought he was funny and charming. But, this character just pushes my buttons!

 

Loved Ray and the rat, and Jax stepping up and defending his team. I like the father- daughter relationship between Sara and Stein, and the fun bromance between Ray and Mick. 

[Lokiberry]

15 hours ago, dkb said:

He was actually doing alright on the Nate annoyance meter until that horrible scene with Amaya, and especially the "no time for another round?" with a stupid smile on his face. I was like what the hell is wrong with him? He really does not care about the team in any way, its all about him; he gets to live his dreams and became a superhero, but he really does not seem a part of the team to me.

 

Basically, yes. This is the second time he's done something like this. The first was in the old west episode when he was supposed to be saving Jonah Hex, but got so carried away with his superpowers that he literally left him swinging. Jonah would  be dead if Sara wasn't such a good shot. I suppose the producers think he's charming, but to me he comes off as a self-centered dudebro slacker.

[jhlipton]

On 2/15/2017 at 1:23 AM, dkb said:

What really pisses me off is, if the rumors are true, and they will have rotating casts each year, then I can see them losing Amaya after she gets her revenge, but stupid stupid Nate staying.

If they cut Amaya, I'm out.  I'll defect to The Flash in a ... heartbeat (LOL) where they have a whole family who are People of Color.

[squidprincess]

On 2/15/2017 at 4:49 PM, Lokiberry said:

 

Basically, yes. This is the second time he's done something like this. The first was in the old west episode when he was supposed to be saving Jonah Hex, but got so carried away with his superpowers that he literally left him swinging. Jonah would  be dead if Sara wasn't such a good shot. I suppose the producers think he's charming, but to me he comes off as a self-centered dudebro slacker.

Nate's never completely made sense to me, but I soured on him a lot even before Outlaw Country.  It's really small, but the way he laughs with delight in Compromised, when he realizes that Amaya and Rex were involved really appalled me.

He's just found out that Amaya isn't just grieving a close friend but also a would-be lover, and he laughs.  And he doesn't seem remotely apologetic when he realizes what he's doing.  (I get having a socially incorrect response, but I think most decent people would be sympathetic and apologetic once they realize it.)

He just doesn't seem to care about anyone deep down.  I find that off-putting.

Edited February 17, 2017 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Nate's character makes no sense. He was supposed to be this nerdy guy that couldn't go out much because of his illness, but he acts like he was always a frat boy that wants to party and have fun. He even complained about studying on one of their missions. The way they are choosing to portray him I'm beginning to think he's lying about being a historian. They have never once shown us him being good at his supposed job. I hope he's gone next season, but I'm not holding my breath, the writers seem to love living out their fantasy's though him, that's why he gets so much screen time. 

[kismet]

Just finished watching this episode. It was going to be a rough week for me, so i held out on watching this ep that I missed last week, especially after they skipped this week. And I was so happy I did. This was the best way to end my week.

Oh and can I say I loved that they gave us a Holiday episode! And its right up LoTs wackiness to put it in February.  :) AMAZING episode from bebeginning to end,  if you erase the Nate/Amaya part. Seriously worse timed Tinder hookup probably even. I didn't mind the getting closer, I just thought the hooking up was a little fast and out of nowhere. 

I didn't like their characterization of Washington,  thought that could have been better. I don't always think they do historical characters well, so I'm not surprised. But wish they could get better at it.

I love Mick, but I wasn't a huge fan of his portrayal of the bullish Ugly American. I know its him, but I think they generalized America a little too much there, a little too often in the episode.

Those negatives aside, I still had a blast. In loved watching all the characters interact. This show is just pure entertainment.  I felt a variety of emotions and was continuously engaged.

MVPs of the episode for me was a tie between EvilRip & Ray. AD slayed as the villain,  truly terrifying. And Ray brought me into the ship/team. A chore wheel, the rat race, setting mood for the family part of the ship. There were many heartwarming moments of family and friendship,  but Ray brought me into that headspace. I am utterly shocked by how much I enjoy Ray :)