Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/16/2017 at 5:03 AM, mxc90 said:

I would have loved to seen Leia try to contact her son with this "force calling' method.

I would have loved to see Leia Force-paddle her brat so hard that he's left curled up in a ball sniveling and crying through to the end of Episode IX.

 

On 12/16/2017 at 8:24 AM, Joe said:

And Snoke's throne room reminded me of something. Inspired by a movie from the 70s or something, though I can't say for sure. That's the vibe I got from it.

Ming the Merciless' throne room in Flash Gordon. Which just makes me wish the Star Wars people had used Max Von Sydow as the Big Bad rather than a quickly-snuffed friend of Leia's at the beginning of the previous movie. The man gives world-class villain performances!

Edited December 18, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[Lantern7]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

This twitter thread is pretty much how I've come to feel about the movie (there's more than one tweet to this):

 

I got that lesson a long time ago. Never have heroes. Seriously, you know who my favorite comedian growing up? Bill Cosby. I dedicated brain space to a lot of his old routines (including the original "Fat Albert"), and then he turned kinda weird. Then we found out about that shit. Today, I fear that Jim Gaffigan will be discovered to have fathered hundreds of really pale children, or Maria Bamford will be exposed as a serial killer.

Just so I'm clear: VIII takes place immediately after VII, right? When did Threepio get his arm changed back? I got his one-shot comic from Marvel by James Robinson and Tony Harris (who brought Starman to the masses in the Nineties), and I haven't gotten around to reading that. I suck as a fan.

ETA: Didn't think "Mary Poppins" with Leia. Now I'm imaging her floating by Yondu as he keeps shouting, "I'M MARY POPPINS, Y'ALL!!!" Also, I hope I wasn't too critical in my first post, re: Leia breaking out a Force move to save her life. Like I said, I thought she was just Force-sensitive, and that she wouldn't be able to use the Force to that degree. I swear, I am not that sort of fan. For Pete's sake, I'm still okay with Ewoks.

[VCRTracking]

Rian Johnson On The Secrets Of Luke, Snoke, And Weird Al In ‘The Last Jedi’

[MrsR]

20 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Leia breaking out a Force move to save her life. Like I said, I thought she was just Force-sensitive, and that she wouldn't be able to use the Force to that degree.

I didn't see it as Leia consciously using the Force, but more of a survival instinct kicking in.  More like it was the Force doing it to Leia rather than her doing it with the Force.

I'm also not convinced the Broom Kid is even aware that he was using the Force. It seemed to me on my one viewing that his head was turned. It seemed so nonchalant and casual.

Anyone out there who has seen it twice?

[ulkis]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

If Rey's parents were supposed to be nobodies, then they should have decided to establish this in the first movie.

Yeah. Fans didn't think Rey was a Skywalker simply because she was force sensitive. They thought it because the Force Awakens dropped a bunch of clues. If they had just introduced Rey as unrelated new character who had the Force, most fans would not have wondered how that happened.

(In fact I remember wondering when I first heard the title of Force Awakens, if it meant no one force sensitive had been around for a while and all of a sudden they were poppin up all over the place.)

 

Quote

-The Snoke situation...oh boy.  Again, the idea of the Darth Vader figure killing the Emperor and taking over is an intriguing one except when it's not.  Kylo had a good opening sequence and I liked his interaction with Rey.  But his character is a whiny little bitch and I can't take him leading the First Order seriously.  People in the audience started laughing when he was yelling at Luke at the end.  He's not a strong villain.  Snoke came across as a more interesting one before his death.  We never get the backstory of his character (and the whole Knights of Ren thing is completely annoyed) and I don't want to hear that we never got the backstory of the Emperor.

I don't think it's not learning the backstory of Snoke that is off. Even in just the context of the OT, I think it's that we knew what the Emperor wanted simply because he was the Emperor. He wanted to rule the Empire and keep on ruling it. Did Snoke simply want to rule an Empire too? It didn't quite seem like it.

Edited December 19, 2017 by ulkis

[benteen]

3 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Yeah. Fans didn't think Rey was a Skywalker simply because she was force sensitive. They thought it because the Force Awakens dropped a bunch of clues. If they had just introduced Rey as unrelated new character who had the Force, most fans would not have wondered how that happened.

(In fact I remember wondering when I first heard the title of Force Awakens, if it meant no one force sensitive had been around for a while and all of a sudden they were poppin up all over the place.)

 

 

I don't think it's not learning the backstory of Snoke that is off. Even in just the context of the OT. I think it's that we knew what the Emperor wanted simply because he was the Emperor. He wanted to rule the Empire and keep on ruling it. Did Snoke simply want to rule an Empire too? It didn't quite seem like it.

Very true.  What was his plans? 

This guy built a massive organization and there should be more story behind it.

[SNeaker]

5 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

This twitter thread is pretty much how I've come to feel about the movie (there's more than one tweet to this):

 

Didn't the originals do this when Luke found out the mentor he idolized had been a failure and had lied to him and that the father he idolized was a lie as well and actually his enemy? Why are we acting like these new movies are so Deep and Complex while the originals were shallow and dumb?

How do these movies teach that "good will always win in the end" when it turned out good did not win for Luke/Leia/Han? When the curtains close on Ep iX, how will we be sure the heroes won and that there win won't be stolen from them shortly thereafter because they ALSO suck and ALSO ended up as failures?

Re: Jedi legacies, the Jedi used to ALL be essentially "Muggleborn." They weren't allowed to procreate. All new Jedi were detected and taken to be trained. The only reason there is a Skywalker lineage is because Anakin broke that (very dumb) rule.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SNeaker

[Silver Raven]

Didn't they just give Rian Johnson free rein with what to do with the story and he was the one who decided that Rey's parents are nobodys?

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Anyone out there who has seen it twice?

Me! And, yes, the boy used the Force unconsciously. That’s why so many missed it. 

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, absnow54 said:

This is the biggest hurdle for holding on to the Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. Leia can feel the presence of those she loves. Han isn't canonically Force sensitive, but Leia could still sense when he died (unless she was tapped into Kylo's energy) so I find it really suspect that she wouldn't recognize Rey's energy, unless she's keeping it a secret for no reason.

I think the theory posted above was that the daughter was believed dead, so they would have had no reason to think this was their daughter. As for Leia recognizing her through the Force, remember that Darth Vader tortured Leia, with no idea whatsoever that she was his daughter. And Leia and Han took to her instantly. Remember, Leia had never even met her, but went to her to hug her first when they returned after Han's death.

So, I still think there's wiggle room here. If JJ Abrams wants Rey to be Han and Leia's long-lost younger child, then they could say Kylo Ren was negging Rey, using her own fears to get at her while he knew exactly who she was. Not telling her would be the ultimate revenge on his parents because they'd never know their daughter was still alive. If JJ Abrams wants to go with the theme of "nobodies" rising up, then he can take it on a surface level and say that Kylo Ren was telling the truth.

[anna0852]

@Shanna Marie yes thank you! That is what I was trying to say.

[afterbite]

38 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, I still think there's wiggle room here. If JJ Abrams wants Rey to be Han and Leia's long-lost younger child, then they could say Kylo Ren was negging Rey, using her own fears to get at her while he knew exactly who she was. Not telling her would be the ultimate revenge on his parents because they'd never know their daughter was still alive. If JJ Abrams wants to go with the theme of "nobodies" rising up, then he can take it on a surface level and say that Kylo Ren was telling the truth.

Still, though, even with this, I see it as too much of a stretch to be believable. If Leia/Han had ever muttered the words "our children" or lamented that they had lost both of their offspring (to the dark side, to death), then I can see it. But having main characters not even reference another child in any way for 2 movies and then spring surprise parenthood in the 3rd would be ridiculously poor writing. With something that big, you can't just build the mystery on Rey's side. You'd have to build it on both, or else it looks like it's just thrown in there because why not. I can see the emotional reasons behind wanting this to happen, but the storyline isn't there. The OT could make Luke and Leia twins because we hadn't met their birth parents yet. In this case, we've met the birth parents, had 2 movies worth of parent/son and familial ties drama, and no one has said "man, if only our daughter/niece were still here..."

Edited December 18, 2017 by afterbite
al

[MrsR]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Well who was she sold to?

Well in the first film it was Unkar Plutt who was leading her away. But he could have been the middleman.

[SnoGirl]

I for sure thought Rey was a Kenobi. I thought the hint was how they used both actors’ voices in the last movie during the lightsaber scene. I thought the story was going to come full circle. Once again a Kenobi was able to stop a Skywalker from making a horrible choice. Im still holding out hope that she is.  Come on, Kenobi was a fox. There’s no way  he didnt stray at least once.

Im feeling empathy for Ben today. For what he could have been, for what was lost because he was lost. I know it was played for laughs, but I did not like the bit with Hux when he reached for his gun, debating killing him. It was too much when Luke did, I didnt like seeing it a second time. I guess, I dont know, Im not looking for a redemption story for Ben. But its tragic that he was so twisted by Snoke and then it gets piled on. I thought Leia was going to stop Kylo in Episode Nine, but I guess thats out the window.

My big question is how did Ben murder and destory everything while Luke was under the rubble? Did the Knights of whatever help? Was Snoke there and egged on Ben to destroy everything? How did they get from point A to point murder/darkside? I guess, he was being like Anakin when he wiped everything out but...there are a lot of gaps I wish they would have answered instead of the casino scenes...

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, MrsR said:

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Well who was she sold to?

Well in the first film it was Unkar Plutt who was leading her away. But he could have been the middleman.

Unkar was using her (and many others) to scavenge sell-able parts from the ship wreckage field (from a long ago space battle) on Jakku and he 'paid' them in food, so it would fit, I think, that he was the buyer... he 'hired' scavengers.   

I haven't read that much of the companion books, but here was a book called Before the Awakening that had three short stories for Finn, Rey and Poe about where they were before the events of TFA.  Rey's was basically what her life was like on Jakku and how she and two others had found a ship after a storm that was almost flyable, and she'd been trying to scavenge to get it working in secret so she'd be able to trade it for food for a long time, but the other two wanted to fly it off planet.  In the end, she chose not to leave because she was still tied to the idea of waiting for her parents to come back for her.  So she'd had an opportunity to leave Jakku, but was still stuck in the past.  

[cynic]

On 12/16/2017 at 0:01 PM, lion10 said:

...

Rose and Finn's plot line could've been completely removed from the movie and I don't think the main plot would've changed. The FO still ends up chasing the very remnants of the Resistance to Crait and Finn and Rose don't impact that chain of events in any way. I'm disappointed with how Finn's character was handled because it seemed like the writers leaned on making him a comedic character and paired him with Rose and yet made Rose the more competent of the two.  It feels like Finn was basically made the "funny black sidekick" even more so than TFA.  Kelly Marie Tran did a great job with Rose, no question, but I wonder why more time wasn't spent developing Finn.

...

 

Yeah, Finn was already treading perilously close to the black comic relief sidekick trope in TFA and this movie just doubled down on it. I saw the way this was going from his first appearance in that leaking med suit. He was in a coma because of the rescue mission that he went on and was instrumental in basically saving the universe from starkiller base, so of course our first glimpse of his recovery is to make him look as clownish as possible. Ugh. Plus, it made no sense to boot. Are there no workers in the medical bay? No one checks on someone that just rips free from all those connections? No alarms alert anyone that dude in coma is now awake and trying to walk around? Not one person noticed and tried to help until he got all the way to the hanger bay? And then he basically spends the movie getting schooled by Rose and getting shocked or knocked out by various people, before getting shallow “growth” and a Big Damn Hero moment that was totally derailed by another one of freaking Rose’s lessons. He was wrong again. Ugh. Not like his story made sense in TFA anyway. He was a stormtrooper trained from childhood to be part of this great fighting force under Phasma, but apparently spent much of that time as a janitor, cuz of course he was ha ha. Well, at least he’ll be alive in the next movie to moon over Rey and provide more “laughs”.

[MrsR]

Finn could have thrown the beacon in the pod and hit the eject button. 

 

And his luggage. Where did he get his luggage?  And his Poe jacket healed up pretty good. Did they have a separate Batha tank for that? 

It's nuts that I can accept that there are squid admirals but that shit bothers the hell out of me.

Edited December 18, 2017 by MrsR

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, SnoGirl said:

I for sure thought Rey was a Kenobi. I thought the hint was how they used both actors’ voices in the last movie during the lightsaber scene. I thought the story was going to come full circle. Once again a Kenobi was able to stop a Skywalker from making a horrible choice. Im still holding out hope that she is.  Come on, Kenobi was a fox. There’s no way  he didnt stray at least once.

 

That could still work. Just because her parents were "nobody" doesn't mean there isn't SOME Jedi blood in her. And if we get an Obi Wan spin-off (with Ewan, God willing), that could be part of the plot.

Still kind of bummed that she isn't a Skywalker (apparently) because it's a shame Luke died a sexless virgin.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[mxc90]

20 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I’m on the fence about Poe’s mutiny, on the one hand Holdo was so close lipped about her plan that it seemed the situation was hopeless from Poe’s point of view.  On the other hand when you have a command structure there are going to be times when the head doesn’t keep other people informed and soliders have to trust and follow orders without knowing all the details.  I think the story would have benefited by establishing that there were concerns about a  spy within the alliance which would help explain Holdo’s refusal to share the plan and appear so ineffectual.    It was odd that she didn’t speak up once the mutiny started to stop it before it went so far.   Her brief scene with Leia talking about loss.  

The writers went out of their way to make their "so called" star and ace pilot an out of control mental patient that needed to be slapped and stunned for trying to be a hero. If the writers went the route of Holdo explaining to Poe the plan, they would have struggled to come up with good material from that point. Your alternative could have worked (Spend some time finding the spy and make Poe shine in the process). Now JJ Abrams (if he's allowed to) will need to go the extra mile to make sure the audience see Poe has learnt from his "mistakes".

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

a shame Luke died a sexless virgin.

Eh, not if the character is asexual... it would be an indication of him gaining understanding and being true to himself, in that regard.  But if he exiled himself from all human contact because of guilt over what happened with Ben, I do find that incredibly sad.   

[SnoGirl]

17 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

The writers went out of their way to make their "so called" star and ace pilot an out of control mental patient that needed to be slapped and stunned for trying to be a hero. If the writers went the route of Holdo explaining to Poe the plan, they would have struggled to come up with good material from that point. Your alternative could have worked (Spend some time finding the spy and make Poe shine in the process). Now JJ Abrams (if he's allowed to) will need to go the extra mile to make sure the audience see Poe has learnt from his "mistakes".

I actually thought Poe was upset bc of being disappointed for being passed over for Holdo. You see him sitting tall and proud when they were announcing who was taking over for Leia, and then he had a kinda “wtf” face when they announced Holdo. I thought Poe then went into panic mode. First the fighters were blown up (which Poe almost died in), which meant most likely most of his friends had just been killed. Leia was literally blown out of the ship. Suddenly Poe has no agency at all. He was trying to save them, when he thought nothing was being done at all. I think he backed Finn’s and Rose’s plans because he was grasping at straws. It was ridiculous. 18 hours to find a codebreaker, sneak into the spaceship, kill the tracker, escape. There’s just not enough time. It was a desparate move, and one the rebels paid for.

I think it was dumb Holdo told him nothing of her plan. Really, would she have said nothing? Leia sent Poe back out to fight before everything went to hell, she obviously still trusted him. It was a clunky plot point.

[Chyromaniac]

18 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

It does appear that Rian Johnson was at liberty to do what he wanted.  However, there are certain expectations when a series of movies is announced as a trilogy.  One of those expectations is a connected story.  George Lucas's original plans did change, but he ended up with a cohesive trilogy that told the stories of the central characters well.  Other more ad hoc trilogies have managed something similar, like Back to the Future and Star Trek II-IV.

For all the investment that Disney has put into this movie it's very poor planning not to have an outline that says we begin at A in Episode VII and end at B in Episode VIII and at C in Episode IX, and the director can do whatever otherwise.  They need a Star Wars movie show runner. 

Here’s my take - Disney and Lucasfilm may not have had a set storyline in place for this trilogy- however if the last few years have proven anything, it’s that they have very specific ideas about what they do, and don’t, want Star Wars to be. If Last Jedi didn’t mesh with their vision of this story, I would imagine Johnson would’ve met the same fate as Trank, Trevorrow, and Lord/Miller (or been reshot like Rogue One). This may be dumb optimism on my part, but I’ve decided to trust that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ will make it work. If you want a Star Wars show runner, she’s it.

 

5 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Just so I'm clear: VIII takes place immediately after VII, right? When did Threepio get his arm changed back?

He had a new arm when Rey left for Ach-To, so sometime between then and the Starkiller battle.

[Joe]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

Finn could have thrown the beacon in the pod and hit the eject button. 

 

And his luggage. Where did he get his luggage?  And his Poe jacket healed up pretty good. Did they have a separate Batha tank for that? 

It's nuts that I can accept that there are squid admirals but that shit bothers the hell out of me.

The jacket looked like it had been stapled back together. You see it more in the right shoulder, but also on the back. I like to think that Poe did it.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Joe

[Zuleikha]

Quote

Didn't the originals do this when Luke found out the mentor he idolized had been a failure and had lied to him and that the father he idolized was a lie as well and actually his enemy? Why are we acting like these new movies are so Deep and Complex while the originals were shallow and dumb?

 

So much this! The original has a lot of hope, but it also had a lot of complexity in Han, Lando, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. The prequels deconstructed the Jedi and Yoda, and Clone Wars rescued the prequels and made their themes actually work. Meanwhile, TFA started us off already on the themes of failure, despair, and hope. What did The Last Jedi truly add that wasn't already part of the universe? (ha, which I'm now realizing is the tl;dr of how I feel about the movie as a whole--other than some beautiful moments, what did The Last Jedi truly add to either the characters or the universe that wasn't basically already there by the end of TFA?)

Also, what was the deal with Phasma's character? I thought she was in Force Awakens as a special favor to Rian Johnson because he needed her established for The Last Jedi. But then she may as well not have been in the Last Jedi. 

 

ETA:

I actually thought Poe was upset bc of being disappointed for being passed over for Holdo. You see him sitting tall and proud when they were announcing who was taking over for Leia, and then he had a kinda “wtf” face when they announced Holdo.

But why would Poe think that? He had literally just been demoted. He was obviously not the next one in the line of command. I didn't think he'd been impled to be any kind of next-in-line to Leia in TFA either... he was her best pilot, but he wasn't shown to be her strategic second-in-command. I also don't know why he felt entitled to Holdo's trust or plan. 

I do think it was clunky that Holdo wouldn't have told others, but I've already forgotten  the sequence. I assume she was telling on a need to know basis as the situation became more dire, but is it possible she was going to make a general announcement before loading people into the transports? Or did Poe's mutiny happen at that moment? Because it is silly if Holdo wasn't ever planning on explaining what she was doing to the Resistance. But that whole arc, IMHO, was clunky and existed to give character development to Poe that he neither needed nor benefited from. It did him no favors, and I didn't think the movie realized exactly how horrible Poe's behavior really was.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Zuleikha

[AshleyN]

I saw this a couple of days ago, but left with my head so full of thoughts that I wanted to let it settle before commentating (and I'm still hoping to see it again at some point). I have to say, the more I think about it, the more my niggling issues give way to all of the things I really loved about it. To me, it was bold and ambitious in a way that I didn't think these giant cash cow franchises could be anymore, and while I do think its reach slightly exceeded its grasp at times (mostly in the middle section, which, despite containing some important thematic material, could have used some streamlining), the highs were so high that it more than made up for it. And the fact that this is the film that Kathleen Kennedy and the Disney brass loved so much that they decided to give Rian Johnson the keys to a whole new trilogy of his own is really promising in terms of the direction they want to take the franchise IMO. 

On 12/17/2017 at 7:47 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Hmmm, I think the central theme is letting go of the past and moving forward into the future, rather than destroying what was loved.  I haven't read too many critics reviews, but if that's what they're saying, I didn't see that.  But letting go of the past is sometimes damn hard, for characters and for fans.  

Yeah, I don't think it's about destroying the past, but about not letting yourself be defined by it. To me, the movie makes it clear that there absolutely is value in myths and legends and heroes, that we can respect them and learn from them and be inspired by them, but it's also important to be able to grow beyond them, to acknowledge where they may have went wrong, and to follow your own path. It obviously seems to reflect in a lot of ways Johnson's approach* to making a Star Wars film -- I think he definitely does have a lot of reverence for what came before him and fully embraces the fundamentals at the heart of the saga, but he's also not content to simply repeat the past, he wants to bring something new to it as well.

And I think the ultimate evidence that it's attitude toward the past is not nearly as harsh as some people seem to think is in all the material with Luke at the end. I don't know if it's despite or because of the the fact that I'm generally more of a casual fan than a die-hard, but I thought that section was breathtaking -- some of my favourite material in the entire series. From the stunning imagery of him standing alone against the First Order, which is positively mythic and a reminder that yes, this is Luke fucking Skywalker, a legend in his world and in ours, to the cut back to the island and recreation of arguably the series' greatest moment with the binary sunset to truly bring his story full circle: from the wide-eyed farmboy who dreamed of adventure and a wider world beyond his own, to an old man who's seen it all, done it all, succeeded and failed, and now, after one final act of sacrifice in service to his friends and his cause, has found his peace and is ready to pass the torch onto the next generation. It felt like an ending worthy of such an icon, and is then wrapped up even further with that beautiful coda showing that even after death he still lives on as a source of inspiration and hope for the people who need it most.

*On a semi-related note, I find it kind of interesting to see the debate being had between the Abrams approach and the Johnson approach because to me they each brought exactly what the series needed at the time. For Abrams, whose job was to resurrect the world's biggest and most valuable franchise after the prequels left so many disillusioned with it, he played it safe in a lot of ways, but also delivered a thoroughly entertaining space adventure that reminded people why they loved this series in the first place and successfully introduced a new generation of heroes and villains. Johnson meanwhile, was able to deliver something bigger and bolder that demonstrated that, forty years and nine movie in, this series still has something to offer beyond a nostalgia trip. And now I'm really curious about what directions Abrams is going to take with Episode IX.

Edited December 19, 2017 by AshleyN

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Still kind of bummed that she isn't a Skywalker (apparently) because it's a shame Luke died a sexless virgin.

Perhaps there's someone out there that will always have space-Paris with Luke, heh.

[ulkis]

8 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

I guess, I dont know, Im not looking for a redemption story for Ben.

For Leia's sake I wouldn't mind. I'm not necessarily rooting for it but I'm not rooting for his desctruction either. Or I guess what I mean is, when Rey or whoever beats him, I hope it's not shown as a triumphal moment. It should be a somber moment, that Leia and Han's son went evil and then he had to be stopped.

Edited December 19, 2017 by ulkis

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, doram said:

He wasn't asexual when he was making out with his sister. #justsaying

That doesn't preclude him possibly being asexual.

 

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Like you said, it seemed like she always had the chance to leave - but she chose to stay in Jakku for the sake of her family. 

 The only reason she had the chance to leave is because there was a huge sand storm and she found the remains of an almost flyable ship in the wreckage field that had been covered and hidden before that (otherwise it would have already been picked clean).  It literally took her and the 2 people she ended up partnering with months to find all the parts they needed to make it flyable again and they had to hide if from other scavengers and defend it from other raiders.  So it was a total fluke that she even had the one opportunity to leave, she was essentially a prisoner on the planet and if she hadn't been able to consistently find enough scrap to trade to Unkar for the food packets, she would have died of starvation and he would have 'hired' someone else.  

[raven]

29 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Perhaps there's someone out there that will always have space-Paris with Luke, heh.

Well yeah..big damn space hero :)

I don't think the legacies of the OG heroes have been negated in any way and I don't consider them failures.  Without them, there's a Death Star and Alderaan is destroyed.  Without them, Vader is still very much a part of the Dark Side and the Emperor is still around.   The Empire probably has more Death Stars - we see how much the technology has improved, they at least have the mega weapon from TFA as well.  Any new force-sensitives would either be killed or brought to the Dark Side. 

Happy and unhappy endings aren't eternal.  There was peace for awhile - Luke built a Jedi Academy after all. 

Killing figureheads (Emperor, Vader) doesn't mean the subordinates and rank and file would suddenly be good people or that the ones who were good would suddenly come out of hiding.  It's not surprising that someone stepped into the void of leadership.  The galaxy's a big place.

The Benicio del Toro character showed our newbies that war is profitable to the right people.   Maybe there is someone in the background stoking the flames to keep the money rolling in.

We might see the final installment with a theme of merging the dark and the light, the New Order and the Resistance.   The New Order does not have stable leadership and there was conflict in the inner circle (Hux/Ren) even before Snoke's death.    Sadly, this would have been an ideal story for Leia to explore; there are no characters who have her experience and wisdom now.

I'm sort of making this up as I think about it but this is what I took from the movie.  The original trilogy was all about "either fight or embrace the dark side" and this one seemed more about facing it and moving on, which is what Rey did.  She literally jumped right into the dark side and it didn't destroy her.  It's what Finn and Poe will do - face their screw ups and move on.  There's more work to be done.  We are all dark and light, understand your weaknesses and failings, do better and move along.

42 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

From the stunning imagery of him standing alone against the First Order, which is positively mythic and a reminder that yes, this is Luke fucking Skywalker, a legend in his world and in ours, to the cut back to the island and recreation of arguably the series' greatest moment with the binary sunset to truly bring his story full circle: from the wide-eyed farmboy who dreamed of adventure and a wider world beyond his own, to an old man who's seen it all, done it all, succeeded and failed, and now, after one final act of sacrifice in service to his friends and his cause, has found his peace and is ready to pass the torch onto the next generation. It felt like an ending fitting for such an icon, and is then wrapped up even further with that beautiful coda showing that even after death he still lives on as a source of inspiration and hope for the people who need it most.

Lovely summation of the ending of Luke's story.

[SNeaker]

1 hour ago, AshleyN said:

And I think the ultimate evidence that it's attitude toward the past is not nearly as harsh as some people seem to think is in all the material with Luke at the end. I don't know if it's despite or because of the the fact that I'm generally more of a casual fan than a die-hard, but I thought that section was breathtaking -- some of my favourite material in the entire series. From the stunning imagery of him standing alone against the First Order, which is positively mythic and a reminder that yes, this is Luke fucking Skywalker, a legend in his world and in ours, to the cut back to the island and recreation of arguably the series' greatest moment with the binary sunset to truly bring his story full circle: from the wide-eyed farmboy who dreamed of adventure and a wider world beyond his own, to an old man who's seen it all, done it all, succeeded and failed, and now, after one final act of sacrifice in service to his friends and his cause, has found his peace and is ready to pass the torch onto the next generation. It felt like an ending worthy of such an icon, and is then wrapped up even further with that beautiful coda showing that even after death he still lives on as a source of inspiration and hope for the people who need it most.

Luke's ending was one of the things that worked for me. He's the only character who had an actual arc and not just a bunch of gotchas. I don't believe in everything that got him there, but his final moments were lovely.

It is terrible that Leia will not have her similar, proper ending. She is the true hero of the Star Wars universe. Really just devastating.

[Lantern7]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Still kind of bummed that she isn't a Skywalker (apparently) because it's a shame Luke died a sexless virgin.

My take: "Yes, I have never . . . done that. Have I ever had feelings? Well, a Jedi isn't supposed to love, and I tried to abide by that, even though that was how I came along. But the big reason? The only time I had those . . . urges . . . was around Leia. Who turned out to be my twin sister. Han could take five hundred cold showers in a row, and he still wouldn't be as less interested in that than I wound up being."

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

23 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I’m on the fence about Poe’s mutiny, on the one hand Holdo was so close lipped about her plan that it seemed the situation was hopeless from Poe’s point of view.  On the other hand when you have a command structure there are going to be times when the head doesn’t keep other people informed and soliders have to trust and follow orders without knowing all the details.  I think the story would have benefited by establishing that there were concerns about a  spy within the alliance which would help explain Holdo’s refusal to share the plan and appear so ineffectual.    It was odd that she didn’t speak up once the mutiny started to stop it before it went so far.   Her brief scene with Leia talking about loss.  

The writers went out of their way to make their "so called" star and ace pilot an out of control mental patient that needed to be slapped and stunned for trying to be a hero. If the writers went the route of Holdo explaining to Poe the plan, they would have struggled to come up with good material from that point. Your alternative could have worked (Spend some time finding the spy and make Poe shine in the process). Now JJ Abrams (if he's allowed to) will need to go the extra mile to make sure the audience see Poe has learnt from his "mistakes".

I'm going to have to say Leia was either testing Poe or trying to teach him a lesson and that's why she had Holdo keep it a secret. See how he'd react. She knew he had the potential to be a the next leader. She didn't know he would take it so far or that circumstances with Finn's secret mission would derail her plan.

 

3 hours ago, cynic said:

On 12/16/2017 at 0:01 PM, lion10 said:

Rose and Finn's plot line could've been completely removed from the movie and I don't think the main plot would've changed. The FO still ends up chasing the very remnants of the Resistance to Crait and Finn and Rose don't impact that chain of events in any way. I'm disappointed with how Finn's character was handled because it seemed like the writers leaned on making him a comedic character and paired him with Rose and yet made Rose the more competent of the two.  It feels like Finn was basically made the "funny black sidekick" even more so than TFA.  Kelly Marie Tran did a great job with Rose, no question, but I wonder why more time wasn't spent developing Finn.

...

 

Yeah, Finn was already treading perilously close to the black comic relief sidekick trope in TFA and this movie just doubled down on it. I saw the way this was going from his first appearance in that leaking med suit. He was in a coma because of the rescue mission that he went on and was instrumental in basically saving the universe from starkiller base, so of course our first glimpse of his recovery is to make him look as clownish as possible. Ugh. Plus, it made no sense to boot. Are there no workers in the medical bay? No one checks on someone that just rips free from all those connections? No alarms alert anyone that dude in coma is now awake and trying to walk around? Not one person noticed and tried to help until he got all the way to the hanger bay? And then he basically spends the movie getting schooled by Rose and getting shocked or knocked out by various people, before getting shallow “growth” and a Big Damn Hero moment that was totally derailed by another one of freaking Rose’s lessons. He was wrong again. Ugh. Not like his story made sense in TFA anyway. He was a stormtrooper trained from childhood to be part of this great fighting force under Phasma, but apparently spent much of that time as a janitor, cuz of course he was ha ha.

Plotwise, Finn and Rose's Canto Bight side adventure was extraneous, theme-wise it was pretty much central. Finn's real big hero moment was defeating Captain Phasma and in TLJ all the characters fail, not just Finn. Finn was also never written with a race in mind so the janitor thing was unintentional.
 

Quote

 

Ugh. Plus, it made no sense to boot. Are there no workers in the medical bay? No one checks on someone that just rips free from all those connections? No alarms alert anyone that dude in coma is now awake and trying to walk around? Not one person noticed and tried to help until he got all the way to the hanger bay?

 

 

 

Everybody was busy escaping from the First Order and dealing with half their fighters and most of the Resistance' bomber squadron having been wiped out.

 

 

Quote

Well, at least he’ll be alive in the next movie to moon over Rey and provide more “laughs”.

It's clear at the end of his arc he stopped being so obsessed with Rey. That he realized there are other people who care about him.

John Boyega has natural comic timing and the filmmakers use it. If Finn was in a movie with black ensemble, his character and the way he acts and his comic relief moments wouldn't be a problem, but since he's the only one played by an actor of African descent it's going to rankle that he's seen as the third less capable character and now Rose makes him fourth. People had a problem with Lucas being such a jerk through most of season 1 of Stranger Things because he's the only main African American character. I liked that he wasn't just the token who blindly went along with everything but I completely understand wanting the only POC character to not just have personality but an ideal personality.

Edited December 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, MrsR said:

It's nuts that I can accept that there are squid admirals but that shit bothers the hell out of me.

Rest In Peace, Admiral Ackbar.

[cynic]

23 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

....

John Boyega has natural comic timing and the filmmakers use it. If Finn was in a movie with black ensemble, his character and the way he acts and his comic relief moments wouldn't be a problem, but since he's the only one played by an actor of African descent it's going to rankle that he's seen as the third less capable character and now Rose makes him fourth. People had a problem with Lucas being such a jerk through most of season 1 of Stranger Things because he's the only main African American character. I liked that he wasn't just the token who blindly went along with everything but I completely understand wanting the only POC character to not just have personality but an ideal personality.

No one said that Finn needs to have an ideal personality. I don't have a problem with him being flawed. Heck, most of the characters in this movie are flawed, but most of them are treated seriously by the movie for the most part (even revered, Poe gets most of the resistance killed by his hubris and disobedience and Leia and Holdo write it off like he's just a scamp who is one lesson away from greater things). Finn isn't treated like that. He's treated more like Jar-Jar or C-3PO than one of the main characters. It rankles because, historically, when black actors are allowed to be cast in films, they tend to disproportionately play sidekicks and comic relief and despite the hope when Boyega was first cast, this film does nothing to buck that trend. 

Having said that, I would have a problem with this character even if the actor was white. I'm just not a fan of the kind of humor employed by TLJ. Most of the jokes are at the expense of Finn, but I also don't like what they did to Hux either. That phone call gag was stupid and made him appear foolish. There were other moments in the movie that undermined his character for a cheap laugh. Between emo Ben and dumb as nails Hux how am I supposed to take the First Order seriously? Who would follow these two idiots?

[Morrigan2575]

44 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Rest In Peace, Admiral Ackbar.

Which brings up another thing that bugs me. They killed off Akbar in that bridge blast and introduced Holder just to kill her off. Wouldn't it have been better to give Ackbar the heroic death?

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Which brings up another thing that bugs me. They killed off Akbar in that bridge blast and introduced Holder just to kill her off. Wouldn't it have been better to give Ackbar the heroic death?

I have a suspicion that might have been done mainly to put someone Poe didn't already know in charge.  Having Akbar in that position would have changed that dynamic completely.  

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Wynterwolf said:

I have a suspicion that might have been done mainly to put someone Poe didn't already know in charge.  Having Akbar in that position would have changed that dynamic completely.  

True but, since Holder keeping secrets things was an annoying plot point done just to propel Finn/Rose's story (which I hated) and Poe's character arc (which I actually liked) I can't help but think Ackbar's death was both useless and slightly insulting. 

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

True but, since Holder keeping secrets things was an annoying plot point done just to propel Finn/Rose's story (which I hated) and Poe's character arc (which I actually liked) I can't help but think Ackbar's death was both useless and slightly insulting. 

Yeah, definitely found the intent better than the execution.  

[Captain Carrot]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Which brings up another thing that bugs me. They killed off Akbar in that bridge blast and introduced Holder just to kill her off. Wouldn't it have been better to give Ackbar the heroic death?

Unfortunately, I think that it was due to the death of the VA for Ackbar, Erik Bauersfeld. That's why he was only a background character with no lines in this movie. (Unless he had a line that I missed).

 

I saw the movie on Saturday, and had had avoided all the spoilers for the movie. Only to have some kid walking out of another showing talking about Luke dying. It was a true Simpson's moment.

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Captain Carrot said:

Unfortunately, I think that it was due to the death of the VA for Ackbar, Erik Bauersfeld. That's why he was only a background character with no lines in this movie. (Unless he had a line that I missed).

 

I saw the movie on Saturday, and had had avoided all the spoilers for the movie. Only to have some kid walking out of another showing talking about Luke dying. It was a true Simpson's moment.

I didn't know that the VO actor died. He did have 1 line that I recall.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Captain Carrot said:

Unfortunately, I think that it was due to the death of the VA for Ackbar, Erik Bauersfeld.

Bummer, I didn't know that.  

 

1 minute ago, Captain Carrot said:

Only to have some kid walking out of another showing talking about Luke dying.

D'oh!

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, AshleyN said:

From the stunning imagery of him standing alone against the First Order, which is positively mythic and a reminder that yes, this is Luke fucking Skywalker, a legend in his world and in ours, to the cut back to the island and recreation of arguably the series' greatest moment with the binary sunset to truly bring his story full circle: from the wide-eyed farmboy who dreamed of adventure and a wider world beyond his own, to an old man who's seen it all, done it all, succeeded and failed, and now, after one final act of sacrifice in service to his friends and his cause, has found his peace and is ready to pass the torch onto the next generation. It felt like an ending worthy of such an icon, and is then wrapped up even further with that beautiful coda showing that even after death he still lives on as a source of inspiration and hope for the people who need it most.

That's fucking beautiful. 

[cynic]

9 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

...

I saw the movie on Saturday, and had had avoided all the spoilers for the movie. Only to have some kid walking out of another showing talking about Luke dying. It was a true Simpson's moment.

I went to the restroom before my showing. It was empty, but then some people came in, obviously having just seen it. I started singing to myself to drown out their conversation. They probably were wondering who the loon was singing in the stall, but hey, at least I didn't get spoiled. 

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, cynic said:

Finn isn't treated like that. He's treated more like Jar-Jar or C-3PO than one of the main characters. It rankles because, historically, when black actors are allowed to be cast in films, they tend to disproportionately play sidekicks and comic relief and despite the hope when Boyega was first cast, this film does nothing to buck that trend. 

Having said that, I would have a problem with this character even if the actor was white. I'm just not a fan of the kind of humor employed by TLJ. Most of the jokes are at the expense of Finn, but I also don't like what they did to Hux either. That phone call gag was stupid and made him appear foolish. There were other moments in the movie that undermined his character for a cheap laugh. Between emo Ben and dumb as nails Hux how am I supposed to take the First Order seriously? Who would follow these two idiots?

Fair enough. I liked Finn in TFA because of the genuinely seriousness of his plight and that he was very funny which is a new type I hadn't seen in a Star Wars movie. When I watched him I realized I like Shia LaBeouf-style comedy when it's NOT Shia LeBeouf! I also like that Hux is more comic. In TFA Donmhall Gleeson was directed to be so OTT that it bordered on ridiculous. It's better that the humor with him is intentional.

Edited December 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[MisterGlass]

There have already been several response to Rian Johnson's tweet that I like, but I have a few more thoughts.  I agree, our heroes were never perfect.  They made mistakes and royally screwed up.  They got captured and maimed and tempted, but they struggled through, and that is what made them heroes.  I didn't worship them - they weren't idols.  They were an inspiration.  They represented endurance and hope.  That's what Star Wars represented.  The last two movies have taken it in a nihilistic direction, and I object to that so strongly.  Luke brought hope back at the end, and I'm so grateful.  It runs counter to what Johnson is tweeting - disappointment does not have to rule you forever if you have the faith to move past it.

3 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Here’s my take - Disney and Lucasfilm may not have had a set storyline in place for this trilogy- however if the last few years have proven anything, it’s that they have very specific ideas about what they do, and don’t, want Star Wars to be. If Last Jedi didn’t mesh with their vision of this story, I would imagine Johnson would’ve met the same fate as Trank, Trevorrow, and Lord/Miller (or been reshot like Rogue One). This may be dumb optimism on my part, but I’ve decided to trust that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ will make it work. If you want a Star Wars show runner, she’s it.

I hope your optimism is rewarded.  I agree that Disney has very specific ideas about what they want Star Wars to be, but what I think they want Star Wars to be is marketable.  I think they want to be able to sell every aspect of it, and that they want it to appeal to everyone.  Rian Johnson wanted the force to be for everyone - to me it already was - and I think Disney values a movie that hammers in on that because it means that everyone can buy, literally, into Star Wars.

JJ and KK may bring it home in Episode IX, and I hope that they do.  I am going to moderate my expectations for now.

[Ravenya003]

Okay, I've mulled everything over, and like many people (not just here, but across the net) I enjoyed it in parts, but had real trouble connecting it on an emotional level. It's hard to articulate why, but something was just missing this time around. I just couldn't connect. 

Here are my biggest takeaways:

Luke's trailer line: "this isn't going to go the way you think!" was indeed prescient. Half the audience believed Rey would be a Skywalker, the other half thought Kylo would get a redemption arc, and both those assumptions were subverted. And yet I don't think the subversions were anywhere near as clever or interesting as they could have been.

I think it was because the plot obliterated most of the characterization (which as it happens was the exact opposite of the problems in TFA, which had great characters, but a recycled plot). For example, Rey's sudden investment in the possibility of Kylo's redemption. Even after hearing about what Luke (supposedly) did to Kylo, why the hell would Rey give a shit about it? She watched Kylo murder Han Solo and nearly kill her dearest friend. Someone as grounded and sensible as Rey in TFA would not suddenly be gung-ho about trying to save this guy from himself because of a dodgy sob-story. Granted, the film DID gesture towards the fact that she was frustrated with Luke's stubbornness and wanted to approach Kylo in an attempt to end the war, but this needed to be MUCH more pronounced if they wanted to convince me that she was prepared to go off by herself with a half-cocked plan to talk him back to the Light Side after getting a front-row seat to his own FATHER failing to do the exact same thing. Why not give her a vision of the Resistance fleet in terrible danger? That would have given her plan a more conniving/desperate edge that would have worked well with her character's brush with the Dark Side - that is, she doesn't really care about saving Kylo's soul, only her friends' lives - and she's prepared to manipulate him (as he did her) in order to do it. 

Instead it was totally what I feared most: she became the agent (albeit temporarily) of Kylo's redemption whose characterization was totally subsumed by HIS storyline - and even the fact that this was ultimately subverted doesn't erase the fact she has to act out-of-character in order for Rian Johnston to get to his "gotcha!" moment of Kylo killing Snoke not out of redemption, but to seize even more power. And as "gotcha" moments go, it didn't have anywhere NEAR the same amount of power or pathos as Han's death. 

Yes, the boat was righted with Rey's eventual rejection of Kylo (closing the Falcon's door in his face was a great moment), but there was a middle patch in which her actions didn't tally up with her established personality. 

And then there was the question of her parentage. Look, I was pretty certain that Rey's parents would end up being nobodies, if not because all the fan theories surrounding their identities were so convoluted, but this was the most anticlimatic way they could have handled this reveal, and it DEFINITELY didn't gel with the clues we were given in TFA. The fact that Rey picked up on Jedi skills so quickly, that she's called to Luke's lightsaber, that Kylo reacts so strongly to mention of "a girl" helping the droid, that she has visions of the Jedi School being destroyed, some of the wording that surrounded her belief in her "family's" return and her abandonment on Jakku - it was all pointing to her being a student at Luke's school who managed to escape with some of her peers, who then dropped her on Jakku for her safety before they were killed, leaving Rey with only vague memories of her early childhood. All that time she thought she was waiting for her parents, she was actually looking for her Jedi family - with the extra irony/betrayal of Kylo being the one who destroyed them. Rian could have kept the (interesting and powerful) reveal of Rey's parentage without dumping all the carefully-strewn clues that she had spent her early childhood with Luke and Ben. 

(Heck, instead of the weird did-he, didn't-he scenario of Luke drawing his lightsabre on a sleeping Kylo, I always thought it should have been Kylo's resentment and jealousy of a very young Rey who upstaged him in her use of the Force that pushed him toward the Dark Side - another bit of irony that would have had that self-fulfilling air they were seemingly going for with Luke's preemptive/instinctive not-murder attempt).

So as ballsy as it was to commit to Kylo's villainy (though anyone paying attention would have known that five seconds into his introduction in which he orders the deaths of unarmed villagers), none of this plot really clicked with me. I asked myself whether it was simply because my theories didn't pan out, but no - there was a lot of glitchy stuff here, and my early queasiness on hearing about how the whole project was handed over to Rian without any sort of guide-lines as to where the trilogy was meant to go, or which parts of the setup should have decent payoff were clearly justified. 

I enjoyed the Resistance plot a lot more, even though it was painfully obvious that Rian wasn't all that interested in Finn, or - bizarrely enough, since he was the one who invented her - Rose either. As adorable as Kelly Marie Tran has been in interviews, it was impossible for me to get a fix on her character: we meet her when she's sobbing over her sister's death, something she shrugs off a few seconds later when she starts fan-girling Finn, who she gets almost immediately disillusioned by, only to go on a superfluous mission with him during which she apparently falls in love with him at some point? Finn looked as baffled as I felt when she kissed him. I just couldn't get in this girl's head at all, and was more moved by her sister's sacrifice than anything she ever said or did. 

I suppose the ball is in J.J. Abrams's court when it comes to who (if anyone) is eventually going to be paired off, though Rey had a tranquil smile when she saw Finn looking after Rose, and Poe seemed exceptionally interested in introducing himself. (Though I made the mistake of looking at some Reylo commentary on Tumblr, and they still think they're watching the epic love story of Rey and Kylo. Just backing away slowly from that one...)

I'm holding out for Finn and Rey - it won't be the end of the world if they don't get together, but my favourite scene of the whole film was easily their reunion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rey seeing him emerge from the tunnel was the first time she truly smiled in the entire movie, and the way the rocks fell either side of them as he ran toward her indicated that she'd lost concentration - her attention was now fully on Finn. After all the jabbering between Rey and Kylo, it was fitting that her reunion with Finn was silent - he may not have the Force, but they don't need a psychic connection to understand each other perfectly. Her smile as he held her was just beatific. 

Whether you ship them or not, it really was criminal that they were kept away from each other for so long. Their relationship was the heart of TFA, and John and Daisy made it very clear in interviews that they missed working together. However it plays out, nothing will convince me that John isn't playing Finn as totally in love with Rey, and Rian seemed to be hedging his bets with Rey's conversation with Chewie in which he suggests (in his own language) what he should tell Finn if Rey doesn't see him again, and she says: "that's perfect." 

Another beautiful moment that no one seems to have mentioned yet: Artoo playing back Leia's original holographic message to Obi-Wan - the message that started it all. 

Okay, this is already an essay, so I better stop here!

[Joe]

46 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

Another beautiful moment that no one seems to have mentioned yet: Artoo playing back Leia's original holographic message to Obi-Wan - the message that started it all. 

 

I love that, and Luke pretty much says, "Cheap shot." He understands what it's all about.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I'm holding out for Finn and Rey - it won't be the end of the world if they don't get together, but my favourite scene of the whole film was easily their reunion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rey seeing him emerge from the tunnel was the first time she truly smiled in the entire movie, and the way the rocks fell either side of them as he ran toward her indicated that she'd lost concentration - her attention was now fully on Finn. After all the jabbering between Rey and Kylo, it was fitting that her reunion with Finn was silent - he may not have the Force, but they don't need a psychic connection to understand each other perfectly. Her smile as he held her was just beatific. 

Whether you ship them or not, it really was criminal that they were kept away from each other for so long. Their relationship was the heart of TFA, and John and Daisy made it very clear in interviews that they missed working together. However it plays out, nothing will convince me that John isn't playing Finn as totally in love with Rey, and Rian seemed to be hedging his bets with Rey's conversation with Chewie in which he suggests (in his own language) what he should tell Finn if Rey doesn't see him again, and she says: "that's perfect." 

ITA. I totally ship Finn and Rey and missed them sharing scenes together. They were consistently on each other's mind throughout the movie and their reunion was one of my favorite moments. Even the people in theatre, "awwww." I think that John and Daisy are playing their characters in love with each other, but you are right that the third movie can go either way.

 

11 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I think it was because the plot obliterated most of the characterization (which as it happens was the exact opposite of the problems in TFA, which had great characters, but a recycled plot). For example, Rey's sudden investment in the possibility of Kylo's redemption. Even after hearing about what Luke (supposedly) did to Kylo, why the hell would Rey give a shit about it? She watched Kylo murder Han Solo and nearly kill her dearest friend. Someone as grounded and sensible as Rey in TFA would not suddenly be gung-ho about trying to save this guy from himself because of a dodgy sob-story. Granted, the film DID gesture towards the fact that she was frustrated with Luke's stubbornness and wanted to approach Kylo in an attempt to end the war, but this needed to be MUCH more pronounced if they wanted to convince me that she was prepared to go off by herself with a half-cocked plan to talk him back to the Light Side after getting a front-row seat to his own FATHER failing to do the exact same thing. Why not give her a vision of the Resistance fleet in terrible danger? That would have given her plan a more conniving/desperate edge that would have worked well with her character's brush with the Dark Side - that is, she doesn't really care about saving Kylo's soul, only her friends' lives - and she's prepared to manipulate him (as he did her) in order to do it. 

Instead it was totally what I feared most: she became the agent (albeit temporarily) of Kylo's redemption whose characterization was totally subsumed by HIS storyline - and even the fact that this was ultimately subverted doesn't erase the fact she has to act out-of-character in order for Rian Johnston to get to his "gotcha!" moment of Kylo killing Snoke not out of redemption, but to seize even more power. And as "gotcha" moments go, it didn't have anywhere NEAR the same amount of power or pathos as Han's death. 

Yes, the boat was righted with Rey's eventual rejection of Kylo (closing the Falcon's door in his face was a great moment), but there was a middle patch in which her actions didn't tally up with her established personality. 

I agree with this also. However, I get what they were going for here. They wanted "someone" to make an effort to save Kylo because he is Leia and Han's son. That someone had to be Rey so we could see the light and the dark side face off with the light winning Rey and dark winning Kylo. Now they are firmly on opposite sides setting up their final confrontation in the final movie. Yet Rey has not been trained so Kylo has the advantage. 

I was actually telling my friend that I didn't like that Rey was mourning and crying over Han who she just met compared to Kylo who couldn't get a damn. I would have liked to see Kylo a bit more conflicted.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SimoneS

[benteen]

9 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

There have already been several response to Rian Johnson's tweet that I like, but I have a few more thoughts.  I agree, our heroes were never perfect.  They made mistakes and royally screwed up.  They got captured and maimed and tempted, but they struggled through, and that is what made them heroes.  I didn't worship them - they weren't idols.  They were an inspiration.  They represented endurance and hope.  That's what Star Wars represented.  The last two movies have taken it in a nihilistic direction, and I object to that so strongly.  Luke brought hope back at the end, and I'm so grateful.  It runs counter to what Johnson is tweeting - disappointment does not have to rule you forever if you have the faith to move past it.

I hope your optimism is rewarded.  I agree that Disney has very specific ideas about what they want Star Wars to be, but what I think they want Star Wars to be is marketable.  I think they want to be able to sell every aspect of it, and that they want it to appeal to everyone.  Rian Johnson wanted the force to be for everyone - to me it already was - and I think Disney values a movie that hammers in on that because it means that everyone can buy, literally, into Star Wars.

JJ and KK may bring it home in Episode IX, and I hope that they do.  I am going to moderate my expectations for now.

I agree...Star Wars isn't meant to be ruled with cynicism and darkness.  I don't need today's cynicism to be poured into Star Wars because it's the cool thing to do.

I've been a fan of JJ's work over the years and hope he delivers but I don't have much confidence that he will.

[cynic]

9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

... 

I enjoyed the Resistance plot a lot more, even though it was painfully obvious that Rian wasn't all that interested in Finn, or - bizarrely enough, since he was the one who invented her - Rose either. As adorable as Kelly Marie Tran has been in interviews, it was impossible for me to get a fix on her character: we meet her when she's sobbing over her sister's death, something she shrugs off a few seconds later when she starts fan-girling Finn, who she gets almost immediately disillusioned by, only to go on a superfluous mission with him during which she apparently falls in love with him at some point? Finn looked as baffled as I felt when she kissed him. I just couldn't get in this girl's head at all, and was more moved by her sister's sacrifice than anything she ever said or did. 

I suppose the ball is in J.J. Abrams's court when it comes to who (if anyone) is eventually going to be paired off, though Rey had a tranquil smile when she saw Finn looking after Rose, and Poe seemed exceptionally interested in introducing himself. (Though I made the mistake of looking at some Reylo commentary on Tumblr, and they still think they're watching the epic love story of Rey and Kylo. Just backing away slowly from that one...)

I'm holding out for Finn and Rey - it won't be the end of the world if they don't get together, but my favourite scene of the whole film was easily their reunion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rey seeing him emerge from the tunnel was the first time she truly smiled in the entire movie, and the way the rocks fell either side of them as he ran toward her indicated that she'd lost concentration - her attention was now fully on Finn. After all the jabbering between Rey and Kylo, it was fitting that her reunion with Finn was silent - he may not have the Force, but they don't need a psychic connection to understand each other perfectly. Her smile as he held her was just beatific. 

Whether you ship them or not, it really was criminal that they were kept away from each other for so long. Their relationship was the heart of TFA, and John and Daisy made it very clear in interviews that they missed working together. However it plays out, nothing will convince me that John isn't playing Finn as totally in love with Rey, and Rian seemed to be hedging his bets with Rey's conversation with Chewie in which he suggests (in his own language) what he should tell Finn if Rey doesn't see him again, and she says: "that's perfect." 

...

Apparently, Rian Johnson has basically said that he knows that some people think that Rey and Finn are a thing, but he doesn't see a romantic connection at all. I feel like that's why he had Rose kiss him, to derail the Finn/Rey shipping. And yes, I totally agree that it was obvious that Johnson was uninterested in Finn. I hope that he gets to be back in the forefront in IX.