S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains 2014.04.20

[Grammaeryn]

I don't really see the Cersei and Jaimie scene as rape. Yes, she said no repeatedly and he took her by force. But I guess in my mind these are two effed up characters and everything they do falls in the depraved sex category.

Mod edit: Book information does not belong in this thread.

[ParadoxLost]

Why the heck did they do the scene that way? I really thought Jaimie was on a redemption arc.

I think Subrookie is right.  They did it precisely because Jaime was on a redemption arc.  This is the reminder that these are bad people and that Jaime throws kids out of windows because of his incestuous relationship with his sister.

[kellerific]

I spent a fair amount of time today discussing that horrid scene with Jaime and Cersei with various friends and family members who were pretty skeeved out and outraged by it.  To my eyes it looked exactly like rape.  I suppose I could believe that this was some kind of creepy domination game between them - they have a weird and complicated relationship - but this is not what came across on the screen, at least not to me.

The thing is, I was actually more horrified by what came before it - that Cersei begged him to kill their brother.  All I could think about was what happened to the last person who asked Jaime to kill a member of his own family.  And then that freaky rape next to a corpse thing happened, and the whole time I kept waiting for Joffrey to roll over on top of them, the way Cersei was clutching at the cloth drape thing he was resting on.  Christ.  What a creepy scene.

And then there were snot rockets and the Hound was back to being the Hound and everything was wrong with the world again.

I guess I wasn't as horrified by the rape as most of the people I spoke with were, but I think maybe I was trying to compare sins, which I know is an incredibly slippery slope, but it's hard for me to reconcile.  Is it worse to try to murder your brother, or rape your sister?  How about throwing an 8 year old out a window in the hopes that he will die on impact?  Is Jaime now irredeemable?  What about Khal Drogo?  Was he irredeemable after he raped Dany on their wedding night?  It's just too much to try to figure.  I don't feel like this ruins Jaime's redemption arc for me, because honestly, I feel like Jaime's actually been on a decidedly downward trajectory since he got back to King's Landing and tried to resume his regularly scheduled life.  Even Loras Tyrell managed to one-up him last week.  But I'm not ready to write him off just yet.

I love the way this show makes me question my own moral code, and who I think is mostly "good" and who I think is mostly "bad", why I even use such categories, whether it's useful to think that way at all, the ways I subconsciously pass judgment on people without even realizing it, in ways that are totally unfair, etc.  Very interesting.

[bluvelvet]

The thing is, I was actually more horrified by what came before it - that Cersei begged him to kill their brother.  All I could think about was what happened to the last person who asked Jaime to kill a member of his own family.  And then that freaky rape next to a corpse thing happened, and the whole time I kept waiting for Joffrey to roll over on top of them, the way Cersei was clutching at the cloth drape thing he was resting on.  Christ.  What a creepy scene.

 

 

Seriously, if Joffrey had dropped on top of them I would have DIED!  It was a very creepy scene but that imagery ...I just can't...

Yup, Cersei was all of "you need to kill Tyrion, he was our son"..I think Cersei will bring this issue up with Jaime again and I am curious in regards to his response.  Cersei 100% believes that Tyrion killed Joffrey and she will be out for blood. Jaime seemed like be  believed the trial would get to the truth.

Edited April 22, 2014 by bluvelvet

[Conan Troutman]

I DVR'd this episode (as per usual) and I still don't get something.  The preview says The Hound teaches Arya something.  What exactly did he teach her?  To never trust a sociopath such as himself??

I think the lesson was a mix of "You gotta be more selfish if you want to survive in this world" and "Don't waste your time and energy helping the weak, it will achieve nothing anyway". And considering how Westeros usually rewards Stark-like acts of nobility as opposed to the brutal and selfish but smart ones, he certainly has a point. 

[LittleIggy]

How many other Monty Python fans laughed when Shireen jabbed at Davos for reading "knights" as "k-nigits"? You silly English k-nigits!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't really see the Cersei and Jaimie scene as rape.  Yes, she said no repeatedly and he took her by force.  But I guess in my mind these are two effed up characters and everything they do falls in the depraved sex category.

Incest is gross, but just because they are brother and sister doesn't necessarily mean they are having all kinds of weird kinky sex. For all we know, the only kink they have is the incest itself and they're into totally vanilla sex. The few times that we have seen them having sex, they weren't doing anything out of the ordinary, so I am not going to assume that incest = every kind of depraved sex act you've never imagined.

The fact that she said no repeatedly and then he had sex with her anyway is the very definition of rape, regardless of their relationship with each other or whether they tie each other up or wear crazy costumes. Unless the show explicitly depicts two characters as having consensual role playing sex where one of them likes to say no but doesn't actually want the other person to stop unless they use a safety word, then when I see someone say no over and over while having sex, I am going to assume that is an act of rape.

[Mz Anthrope]

When Cersi asked Jamie to kill their brother because he'd "killed our son", that was the first time (and yes, I may be *completely* daft/clueless) I heard them both acknowledge that each of them knew Joffrey was their son, and not Robert's.  I'd heard that and I was waiting for Jamie to jerk his head around and say "wait... WHAT?!", but nope...

And Cersi is a hateful woman... bitter to the core.  And it just seems to me she *and* Jamie are going to spin out of control.  Jamie for what he's been through (how effing horrific to lose a limb like that, come back and be pretty much dismissed by your father and twin sister/lover/mother o' spawn) and Cersi's just amped up her self-entitled, damaged flower self-image. 

I fear for Tyrion and hope like hell Oberyn takes down Tywin somehow.  Face to face. 

[NorthstarATL]

 

The fact that she said no repeatedly and then he had sex with her anyway is the very definition of rape, regardless of their relationship with each other or whether they tie each other up or wear crazy costumes. Unless the show explicitly depicts two characters as having consensual role playing sex where one of them likes to say no but doesn't actually want the other person to stop unless they use a safety word, then when I see someone say no over and over while having sex, I am going to assume that is an act of rape.

That's a reasonable way to read the scene. On the other hand, having not seen any other consummation scene between the two, and knowing that they have a shared history that includes a now deceased son and an attempted murder, I assumed that this is what they do. Siblings are often both aggressive and loving toward each other without adding the incest factor, and it does not seem out the realm of posssibility.

     I like the juxtaposing of how Tywin builds his army/alliances and the way in which Dany does. She really does inspire a loyalty that is almost religious in its fervor, which I think will make hers stronger in the long run, and he is constantly being undermined by the actions of his children/grandchildren in making enemies where there needn't have been.

     I know Sansa is still in trouble, but anywhere away from  the Lannisters has to at least give her an opportunity for some sort of freedom that she didn't have before.

Edited April 22, 2014 by NorthstarATL

[Haldebrandt]

That's a reasonable way to read the scene. On the other hand, having not seen any other consummation scene between the two, and knowing that they have a shared history that includes a now deceased son and an attempted murder, I assumed that this is what they do.

A consummation scene between the two in the pilot is what set the whole story into motion.

[sugarbaker design]

A consummation scene that ended with our hero Jamie Lannister pushing a boy out of a window.  That sisterfucker can lose all his extremities and save Brienne from countless perils, that doesn't take away from his crimes.

[atomationage]

I thought the Cersei/Jamie scene was just to show us that Cersei thought what was happening was wrong for the first time. 

[sugarbaker design]

Cersei thought the setting was wrong (right next to her son's corpse), if it were happening in the privacy of her own chamber I'm sure she wouldn't protest.

[millahnna]

I think what I find the most interesting about the Jamie and Cersi scene is that I certainly looked at it as rape but I'm not entirely sure that Cersi would (she strikes me as the type of woman who, for herself, might make a distinction between forced sex and rape, as oxymoronic as that sounds).  Normally for anything that can be interpreted anywhere in a grey area, my motto is "well I'll go with whatever the character says".  In this case I have a sort of opposite view and I find that fascinating. 

 

In addition to the scene reminding us that for all of his gifts, Jamie is not a good man, I think a large point of the scene was also to show us the fragile state of their emotional connection (it was paper thin already but Joffrey's death has all but torn it asunder).  They are both grieving but at the same time are in two wildly different mental places right now.  I do think that a large part of the reason Cersi was saying no was because of Joffrey's corpse being right there (and his death in general, I doubt she'd have been much more receptive to it in a less gross location at the moment).  Whereas Jamie seemed to need the physical connection as part of his grief (which in no way excuses the action).  And it's funny if you think about it,.. If they weren't twins who'd spawned the worst monster ever (outside of the smoke baby, I guess), you could actually translate those two wildly opposite reactions to some real life trends (on a much less dramatic scale, obviously) when parents lose a child.

My hat is off to Heady; she played that scene with the perfect mix of repulsion and desire and for me, that's what made is so utterly disturbing. 

[JTMacc99]

So I find myself asking, how much of Littlefinger's involvement in killing Joffrey is related to advancing his own wealth and power, and how much is just so he can get his hands on Sansa.

Which by the way, setting things up to make it look like Tyrion was the killer, would certainly benefit somebody who was looking to get his hands on his wife.

I wonder how long it will be before Tyrion figures it out. He's still thinking along the lines of who would want him dead and thinking about of all the Lanister and political things he's done. It make take him a while to get to the Sansa angle.

Edited April 22, 2014 by JTMacc99

[millahnna]

What I can't figure is why Oleanna was in on it (assuming based on all of the screen shots from last week with her fiddling with the necklace).  I mean I get why she'd want Joffrey dead, and I guess I can see her working with Littlefinger out of some kind of necessity.  But I can't imagine she likes the little rat.  I still think Tyrion being blamed was a bit of a side effect more than anything else. 

[Subrookie]

I forgot to mention that Jamie also killed his cousin Alton Lannister when he was escaping being a captive of Rob Stark in Season 2. IMO the show had to bring the audience back to the reality of him being an evil Lannister. That season and a half of him working his way back to Kings Landing with Brienne, getting his hand cut off and not being the "Kingslayer" he once was managed to get a lot of fans to actually like him. All the discussion about whether it was rape or not is more of a side conversation IMO, the scene worked, those that thought he forced himself on Cercie don't like Jamie anymore.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Tyrion said something like "Whoever killed Joffrey wanted to get rid of me, too". Makes me wonder: If it was indeed Littlefinger, why would he want Tyrion out of the way?

While Littlefinger is a crafty little shit, I can't credit him with setting up Tyrion to take the fall. He would have had no way of knowing that Joffrey would demand that Tyrion be his cup-bearer. Had Tyrion simply been sitting in his seat like everyone else, Cersei would have been shit out of luck in her accusations, IMO.

Could Littlefinger have been skeevier towards Sansa? God, he was so far into her personal space that *I* was backing up!

I'm still on the fence with the Cersei/Jaime scene. She was into it, then not so much, then back into it, then not so much. I wouldn't be surprised if this was something that had happened before with them. Those two are just so horribly fucked up...something tells me that Cersei won't see it as a rape. I will be very interested to see her behaviour/attitude after this.

I did like that Tywin has decided to basically take Tommen away from Cersei's influence and pull him under his own wing. "Wisdom" indeed.

Ygritte is dead to me. I don't give a shit what her beef is with Jon Snow, the Crows, the Wall or whatever. Slaughtering poor, innocent villagers who are already struggling at the bottom of the food chain, is so much villainy, I can't even handle it. They were monstrous.

Edited April 22, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Muffyn]

Haven't 3 kings died under Jaime's so-called protection?  I'm surprised Tommen didn't give him the side-eye.

Loved Lady Olenna's line to Margery:  "You'll do better with the next one."

 

Tommen is royally screwed.  He'll end with a wife who has already buried two husbands and the head of his king's guard cannot protect a king.  

[Subrookie]

While Littlefinger is a crafty little shit, I can't credit him with setting up Tyrion to take the fall. He would have had no way of knowing that Joffrey would demand that Tyrion be his cup-bearer. Had Tyrion simply been sitting in his seat like everyone else, Cersei would have been shit out of luck in her accusations, IMO.

Could Littlefinger have been skeevier towards Sansa?

Littlefinger seems to always be always angling for some way to improve his position, there's always a reason for what he does. Coming up with the plan to kill Joeffrey himself and framing Tyrion doesn't fit in that strategy I don't think. But, if the Terrells or Tywin offered him some way to improve his standing, that I could see happening. I don't see how Sansa fits into all this yet, the Lannisters offered him Lysa Arryn as a wife already and Sansa is already married. So, why would he want her? I can only assume it's because she has a claim on Winterfell. 

Anyway, whoever did it offered him something. His reason for being is power. I think Varys said something along the lines of "he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes".

Edited April 22, 2014 by Subrookie

[Constantinople]

Haven't 3 kings died under Jaime's so-called protection?  I'm surprised Tommen didn't give him the side-eye.

Loved Lady Olenna's line to Margery:  "You'll do better with the next one."

 

Tommen is royally screwed.  He'll end with a wife who has already buried two husbands and the head of his king's guard cannot protect a king.

To be fair, Jaime was AWOL from the Kingsguard when Robert died, so perhaps it will be a case of "third time lucky" for both Margaery and Jaime. Edited April 22, 2014 by Constantinople

[CeeBeeGee]

I don't see how Sansa fits into all this yet, the Lannisters offered him Lysa Arryn as a wife already and Sansa is already married.

Perhaps not for much longer.

Also, Lysa isn't under Tywin's control--she is free (in theory at least) to turn down Littlefinger and just might. The--what, third? Fourth?--son of a minor lord might not be the best match for the daughter of Hoster Tully.

[millahnna]

Also, she's batshit insane.

[Subrookie]

Also, she's batshit insane.

Well, since Lysa is technically Sansa's aunt that would make Littlefinger even more creepy if he marries Lysa and wants to be with Sansa.

[BigMamaThorton]

So, regarding the "rape" scene, and subsequent media/fan hullaballoo:

Last week, we were presented a scene wherein a sociopath with his equally psychopathic girlfriend, and his partially flayed human pet hunted down a girl, shot a couple of arrows into her, and then allowed her to be torn apart by very angry mastiff dogs for sport.  For. Sport.

A sexual encounter between siblings, in the presence of said siblings' deceased/murdered bastard son, while in what passes as a church setting while a fallen leader effectively lies in state….whether it was intended, shot, or actually was R.A.P.E. becomes rather beside the point on pretty much any single scale one might want to use for evaluation, no?

Seriously.  Depravity is an equal opportunity construct in Westeros.

[halgia]

The difference is that we already know Ramsey is pretty much unredeemable; if he had raped someone there would be no issue. Jaime, since season 2 or so, has been more of a protagonist / has more people starting to root for him, and this is the first bad thing he's done in a while.

 

If the people involved with the show weren't waffling about whether this is or isn't rape, I'd think that they did this just to remind us that hey, Jaime is not a good guy. But since they are, I think it's (yet again) revealing some fucked-up attitudes about sex/women/etc by the writers of the show.

[Carrie Ann]

Yes, exactly. The media and fan response to this isn't because it's the most shocking scene ever on the show, or the most violent, or the most disturbing.

Edited April 24, 2014 by SilverStormm
This is a book talk free thread. Please do not reference the books. Thank you.

[joliefaire]

^^  QFT.  Jaime, a rapist?   They might as well have made Dany a slave-owner or Stannis a giggling tap-dancer for how absurd and terrible that was.  An outrageous decision.  I wonder if some writer's job is on the line because of it.  It should be.

[dramachick]

Yes, exactly. The media and fan response to this isn't because it's the most shocking scene ever on the show, or the most violent, or the most disturbing.

I think that most people draw a line as to what is the most reprehensible behavior they'll tolerate from their friends, or people that they like, and if that line is crossed they can no longer in good conscience support that person.  Jaime has been written as a multidimensional character who has some serious flaws, just like a person in real life.

The people who like the character of Jaime and don't consider the scene as rape are going to continue to like him with no problem.  The people who loathe him - like me - will continue to think of him as a man who routinely does bad things and no surprise if rape is one of them.  I can't get past him throwing Bran out the window because I don't think there's anything lower than killing or trying to kill a child.

Jaime is a well-defined character whose actions evoke strong emotions in people, and there's no doubt in my mind that the folks at HBO are fine with the episode being a hot topic throughout social media. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by SilverStormm
Removed response to book talk

[NoWillToResist]

 

The people who loathe him - like me - will continue to think of him as a man who routinely does bad things and no surprise if rape is one of them.

I will simply say this: I do not feel that Jaime's rape (narrative still to be decided, IMO) of Cersei means that he would be fine to rape ANY woman. His...thing...with Cersei is so massively fucked up on every conceivable level that, to me, when I really thing about it, it isn't THAT shocking. Dude is totally, utterly obsessed with her. If he were to go to some random village and just rape some stranger? Yes, that would be weird, IMO. But him fucking Cersei under questionable circumstances? Yeah...I'm not sure that's really OOC for them/him.

 

Now, if he'd yelled at her angrily and beat her up and then shoved her to the ground while yelling that he's gonna make her pay for rejecting him etc., that would upset me more. But the way it played out (thus far)...I can see how TPTB feel that there is some...middle ground...in the interpretation of those events. Cersei was initially very into it. She then pushed him away because of his stump. She then objected to the circumstances/location. Meanwhile, while Jaime was overriding those objections, he wasn't doing so angrily, IMO. He came off as totally desperate to make her 'see' him, to understand, to accept the love they do/should still have for each other and find comfort in each other as they used to do etc.

 

I am very interested in seeing how Jaime and Cersei behave towards each other next. Will either of them view it as rape? I'm thinking not. Cersei may call him out on fucking her in front of their dead son, but I'm not sure she'll give him shit about the sex itself since, IMO, she was shown to be on board until she was reminded about his hand. So, in her mind, she may acknowledge that part of her did want that physical comfort from Jaime and she lets it go.

 

I have to remember that the world of GoT is not our time, so the notion of consent/women's rights etc., is VERY different from what we're used to.

Edited April 23, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[sev]

I have to remember that the world of GoT is not our time, so the notion of consent/women's rights etc., is VERY different from what we're used to.

 

Just having a (rhetorical) thought experiment:

 

Can't it be that the notion of the value of children is very different, too? After all, in Westeros, children are meant as legacy for the rich and labour for the poor. They are more expendable than in modern day, where we have PC child worship. Only 100 years ago, kids were sent working in mines and beaten.

 

Would Jaime's act have been as despicable if he had defenestrated an adult to prevent five people from being killed?

Edited April 23, 2014 by sev

[atomationage]

On this page, 34 rapes, 1 raped and 1 rapist, so far.  I don't care about Cersei at all.  I think it would be cool if The Red Woman set her on fire.   I also don't care about what happened in the books either, since they're only using them as a general outline anyway.  To me, it looks like Jamie can be a better person away from Cersei, but she's not a better person away from him. 

[annlaw78]

 

Cersei thought the setting was wrong (right next to her son's corpse), if it were happening in the privacy of her own chamber I'm sure she wouldn't protest.

But she had been putting Jaime off (i.e., "protesting") ever since his return.  I have no reason to believe if the scene happened in her chambers, she'd be into it. 

 

The difference is that we already know Ramsey is pretty much unredeemable; if he had raped someone there would be no issue. Jaime, since season 2 or so, has been more of a protagonist / has more people starting to root for him, and this is the first bad thing he's done in a while.

If the people involved with the show weren't waffling about whether this is or isn't rape, I'd think that they did this just to remind us that hey, Jaime is not a good guy. But since they are, I think it's (yet again) revealing some fucked-up attitudes about sex/women/etc by the writers of the show.

 

Agreed.  I think a lot of the dismay generated is not from the scene itself, but how various persons attached to the show have disagreed about what the scene depicted -- rape or consensual sex.  If a show wants to depict a rape, there is an intelligent and respectful way to do that.  If a show wants to depict crazy, messed-up consensual sex, it would behoove the show to make the consent clear and voluntary.  Just my opinion.  I don't understand why there would be confusion on it internal to the show, which there seems to be given various interviews given.  It's sort of a big, important issue that would be good to make sure everyone's on the same page, and to double-check that what was in the can actually comports with the vision and intent. 

 

I have to remember that the world of GoT is not our time, so the notion of consent/women's rights etc., is VERY different from what we're used to.

I get that, but rape is not a modern legal construct.  The concept of rape -- and the condemnation of it -- have been around pretty much for the entirety of recorded human history.  In the fictional world of Westeros, we've seen that there are laws and morals, as well as taboos.  Incest seems to be frowned upon, there's a concept of a (low) threshold age for sexual activity, and forcing oneself on a woman seems to be likewise condemned.  So while I get that arranged/forced marriages may be the norm for women, and women's options are very limited, I don't think that means that women and men in Westeros do not have a basic idea that men should not force themselves on unwilling persons, or that Cersei would not feel violated by what happened to her.

Edited April 23, 2014 by annlaw78

[Indi]

To me, it looks like Jamie can be a better person away from Cersei, but she's not a better person away from him. 

If Jaime's morality depends on whom he's with at any given time, then he has no morality at all.

I don't care about what happened in the books either. The worrying part comes, when they (director, etc...) try to pass that scene as consensual. It wasn't and if that was what they were aiming for, they failed spectacularly.  But I'm more impressed by his hypocrisy than anything. The way he called Cersei a hateful woman and diverting responsibility for his actions to the gods, that made him love her. Does he think he's made of rainbows and puppies? He's as hateful as she is, Does he really think that his feelings for her are responsible for his actions and not him? Bah! He's weak and petty and not worth anyone's time, even less Brienne's, even if he chose once to respect her and do good to her. So what? A broken clock is right twice a day too. One day he could change his mind about her and do something horrible to her in a fit of Lannister lunacy.

Tyrion is the only Lannister worth rooting for. For now.

Edited April 24, 2014 by SilverStormm
Book talk removed. This is a book talk free thread. Thank you.

[Constantinople]

The people who loathe him - like me - will continue to think of him as a man who routinely does bad things and no surprise if rape is one of them.  I can't get past him throwing Bran out the window because I don't think there's anything lower than killing or trying to kill a child.

 

Jaime also has yet to show any regret for doing so, nor has he made any attempt to atone for it.

 

Nor have I seen anything from Jaime in 33 episodes that indicates he's particularly anti-rape, any more than he's anti all of the other horrible things that have occurred, which is to say, not at all.

 

When Jaime & Brienne walked by the 3 tavern girls who'd be hung, and presumably raped, by Stark soliders, Jaime wasn't outraged, Brienne was.  Jaime's reaction was "Ha Ha, your side commits atrocities too".  Which is an odd response for someone who is allegedly anti-rape.

 

Has "anti-rape" Jaime ever done anything to bring the Mountain to justice?  Or even just had him killed for his crimes?  No doubt there are a lot of people who wouldn't go after the Mountain not simply because they feared him, but they feared Lord Tywin even more.  Jaime is unique in the Seven Kingdoms in that if he had the Mountain killed, Tywin isn't actually going to do anything, or anything much, about it.

 

But "anti-rape" Jaime has better things to do, like impregnating his sister, which inevitably means a succession crisis, war and thouands of people, mostly women, being raped (not to mention killed).  Does Jaime care?  Has he ever shown any regret?  Has he ever tried to atone for what he did?  No.  His response has been to try to get back in his sister's pants as fast as possible.

 

Even Cersei's shown more awareness about what happens to women in wartime.  When she told Jaime the fear she felt when Stannis besieged King's Landing, Jaime's response was "Whatevs".  This is allegedly the woman he loves.

 

Jaime's one apparent skill, aside from sister fucking, was fighting in tournaments, and even then, if Littlefinger is to be believed, he was slipping, losing to Loras at some tournament (I don't believe Littlefinger's claim that Tyrion won the dagger by betting against Jaime, but as far as I know, Jaime did, in fact, lose to Loras).

 

Jaime is purportedly in the Kingsguard yet he killed one king, abandoned the second and saw the third die on his watch.  He pushed a child out of a window and killed his own cousin in the name of twincest.  The moment he returned to King's Landing he said, fuck it, Arya and Sansa are on their own.  It was nice of Jaime to rescue Brienne, but they would never have been captured if he wasn't such an asshole on the bridge (and just what is the point of trying to escape from someone who's taking you where you want to go anyway?)

 

Is there any vow or promise Jaime hasn't forsaken because he didn't feel like it, because it is too "hard" or because Jaime felt as if he had better things to do?  Ned Stark was right.  Jaime always takes the easy way out.

 

So even before Jaime raped his sister, I never saw Jaime on any kind of path to redemption.  Reading "I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!: Daily Affirmations With Stuart Smalley" doesn't cut it.

 

Never forget that his name ends with

 

I-ME

[NoWillToResist]

 

So while I get that arranged/forced marriages may be the norm for women, and women's options are very limited, I don't think that means that women and men in Westeros do not have a basic idea that men should not force themselves on unwilling persons, or that Cersei would not feel violated by what happened to her.

 

But this is a world where women are told to marry X and are forced to have sex and bear that man's children. In a world like that, I can easily imagine that there is no concept of 'date rape'. I suspect Cersei's previous activities with Jaime will 'excuse' his behaviour. Outside of the marriage issue, I think that there is a class element to rape in GoT. Raping a high-born woman? You're in trouble (unless you're protected by someone powerful or high-born family is in the process of being removed from power). Rape some random village woman? Meh. No one cares about the poor, right?

 

 

Nor have I seen anything from Jaime in 33 episodes that indicates he's particularly anti-rape, any more than he's anti all of the other horrible things that have occurred

 

I personally believe, particularly in this world, that there is a difference between knowing/accepting what types of atrocities take place in war time and choosing not to partake yourself. I see no disconnect between Jaime not being someone who rapes random women while also not being some anti-rape crusader.

 

Another curious example of that compartmentalization is/was Khal Drogo. Loved his wife and would tear to pieces anyone who looked at her wrong, yet he allowed his men to plunder cities, raping women left, right and centre.

 

I suspect that Jaime has a very small list of people he can be bothered to lift a finger to help/protect. Cersei is one and, strangely enough, Brienne appears to be another.

 

I'm personally very curious to see how Jaime ends up handling the "kill Tyrion" order from his beloved. Who will Jaime listen to? The brother who's been good and decent to him (and others), or the "hateful woman" he loves?

Edited April 23, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Lady S.]

^^  QFT.  Jaime, a rapist?   They might as well have made Dany a slave-owner or Stannis a giggling tap-dancer for how absurd and terrible that was.  An outrageous decision.  I wonder if some writer's job is on the line because of it.  It should be.

D&D can't very well fire themselves. Interestingly, unlike the director, their intent appears to have been rape, judging by the inside the episode where Benioff describes Jaime as forcing himself on her. Unless they don't consider that the definition of rape which is even grosser.

 

[Helena Dax]

 

I think that there is a class element to rape in GoT. Raping a high-born woman? You're in trouble (unless you're protected by someone powerful or high-born family is in the process of being removed from power). Rape some random village woman? Meh. No one cares about the poor, right?

Not so sure about that. We've seen there are a bunch of rapists in the Wall, which means that rape is punished  by law. And  the chances that all of them raped high-born women are low, especially because that kind of women aren't usually alone. 

I  think it depends on  the lord we're talking  about. I can see Ned, Stannis or lord Tyrell executing every rapist in their lands. I can see lord Bolton or lord Frey not doing it.

On the other hand, in war times it's more difficult to punish that kind of crimes and  the law's weaker. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

We've seen there are a bunch of rapists in the Wall, which means that rape is punished  by law. And  the chances that all of them raped high-born women are low, especially because that kind of women aren't usually alone.

I  think it depends on  the lord we're talking  about. I can see Ned, Stannis or lord Tyrell executing every rapist in their lands. I can see lord Bolton or lord Frey not doing it.

 

Fair point. It's probably a 'local law' type of thing, enforced (or not) based on where you live and how decent your people are. :)  What i meant was that there doesn't appear to be a law universally applied which prohibits rape since there has been rape all over Westeros and beyond, and it's just been shrugged off by so many.

 

I mentioned the class thing because can't imagine Tywin (or any ranking Lannister) giving a flying fuck if some villagers got raped, not even Cersei, because, you know, ewwww peasants.

[annlaw78]

Fair point. It's probably a 'local law' type of thing, enforced (or not) based on where you live and how decent your people are. :)  What i meant was that there doesn't appear to be a law universally applied which prohibits rape since there has been rape all over Westeros and beyond, and it's just been shrugged off by so many.

I think you hit on the issue: there may be a kingdom-wide law against rape, but it's not enforced (or selectively enforced or hard to enforce during civil war).  A continued problem even today is getting rape victims to report their assaults, as they have to deal with all of the stuff that essentially has been thrown at Cersei regarding her rape: Was it really rape?  Wasn't she really into it?  Didn't she eventually get into it?  She'd had sex with him before, so why would she say no now?  She could have fought him off if she really wanted to. It's not "rape-rape."  Etc.  So I would imagine many Westeros women don't report it, likely out of shame (consider the importance of the farmer's daughter's "virtue" in this ep), fear, and/or mistrust of the system.

Edited April 23, 2014 by annlaw78

[NoWillToResist]

 

So I would imagine many Westeros women don't report it, likely out of shame (consider the importance of the farmer's daughter's "virtue" in this ep), fear, and/or mistrust of the system.

 

Also I suspect many were murdered right afterward. Seems to be something shitty soldiers/invaders do - rape 'em and then kill 'em. :(

 

Apparently that's what happened with Oberyn's sister.

Edited April 23, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[bunnyblue]

I watched the episode again, paying attention to Shireen & Davos. The "K-nig-its" was hilarious. They are adorable together. Shireen is such a wonderful teacher and Davos is a wonderful father-figure.

 

I noticed that Shireen's room looks like a jail cell; stone walls, high-up windows, and so dark. It's not, is it? Come to think of it, what they have shown of Dragonstone, it seems like a very dark & gloomy place. I don't think I've ever seen the sun shining in that place. Is it supposed to look like it was carved out of a cave? 

 

I used to watch a lot of soap operas back in the day, and I am familiar with the cliche of rape redeeming a  bad woman. I hope the writer's don't go that route with Cersei. Rape aside, she is a vile & detestable woman. Seeing her silently standing by Joffrey's corpse as Tywin bad mouthed her & her precious son was wonderful. I hope she loses all control of Tommen. I hope her days of drinking wine and smirking gleefully as the Starks suffer more losses are over. I would love it if Margaery & Olenna banished her from court the way Margaret Beaufort got rid of her rival Elizabeth Woodville after the War of the Roses.

Edited April 24, 2014 by bunnyblue

[dr pepper]

Change of subject.

A picky point: in a non tech world, the word "fire" is not used as a command for a projectile attack as Dany did with the catapults.

Edited April 25, 2014 by SilverStormm
Please do not reference the books at all in this thread. Thank you.

[NoWillToResist]

 

the word "fire" is not used as a command for a projectile attack as Dany did with the catapults.

 

I'd like to know when they had those made. IIRC, none of the previous aerial shots of her army ever showed them. They sure as shit weren't lugging those things around those narrow mountain paths. So, where did they make them? Where did they find the materials? And how is she FEEDING all these people in the middle of the desert? Are her dragons flying off to procure food for everyone? ;)

Edited April 24, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Constantinople]

I watched the episode again, paying attention to Shireen & Davos. The "K-nig-its" was hilarious. They are adorable together. Shireen is such a wonderful teacher and Davos is a wonderful father-figure.

 

I noticed that Shireen's room looks like a jail cell; stone walls, high-up windows, and so dark. It's not, is it? Come to think of it, what they have shown of Dragonstone, it seems like a very dark & gloomy place. I don't think I've ever seen the sun shining in that place. Is it supposed to look like it was carved out of a cave? 

 

The only time I recall the sun shining in Dragonstone was in the S3 finale when, after Stannis, Davos and Melisandre discussed the raven mail from Castle Black and the need to go North, Stannis revoked his order to execute Davos for freeing Gendry.  But rather than take the hint, they've dawdled and Dragonstone has reverted to its usual gloom.

 

There have also been a few daylight beach scenes (Davos, his son & Sallador San; Stannis & Melisandre; Davos & Gendry).

Edited April 24, 2014 by Constantinople

[halgia]

A picky point: in a non tech world, the word "fire" is not used as a command for a projectile attack as Dany did with the catapults.

Maybe she used the right word in Valyrian but the subtitlers got it wrong. :)

Edited April 25, 2014 by SilverStormm
Removed book reference from quote.

[Mz Anthrope]

I can list a few people I am hoping get through this okay

Tyrion.  I like him.  He's gotten a very bum rap (which happened a lot in those days, so no rose-colored glasses)

Arya .  She's living a bad life and accepting some bad answers to bad circumstances.  Her lot will be much like a feral dog, I think, unless she can turn this around.

Hound .   Was getting all puppy-eyed until he stole the farmer's silver.  So what if you believe they aren't going to make it through.  That's not the reason you stole.  It's because you can only take so long before you go back into the life you're used to.

Stannis' daughter and Davos.  NOT together, mind you - but that these two characters have really, in my opinion, high integrity and morals.  I'd love to see something come of both their lives, but when I 'wish upon a star', that one usually becomes Hale-Bopp and they're gone.

Brienne - damn, make her the right hand of something.  Give her a cause to fully vest herself into

Other thoughts

Sansa has never gotten her backbone set well.  She's always felt/allowed herself to be at the mercy of others.  She really does just want to be taken care of and not really challenge herself to grow.  If she isn't gaining a good, iron spine soon, she'll be like that flitting leaf on a stump in the river - drama here and drama there, but never really going anywhere of circumstance.

Littlefinger - nasty effing bastard.  Just want what he could never have.  Doing it so covertly and with that much manipulation is just a portion of the skeeve factor.  He's been doing the long con for quite some time being the Master of Coin.  He let one of his prostitutes be set up for Joffrey's hideous cross-bow 'look-see'.  I am sure he has depth of sleeze yet plumbed.

Tywin - I think he's said it all in these last few episodes.. most recently taking Tommen under his wing directly in front of Sansa - who just wants to cling to her boys.  AND hopefully get some kind of power.  She's fighting a losing game, and will continue to take that out on others.  Her and Jamie can walk the dance of 'fuck outta here'

Bored with Danys.  Would love more interaction with her and her 'hand/adviser', but she's all into who's cooing over her.  And her mission of saving all these slaves is getting pretty rote. 

 

But meh... what do I know?  LOL  Just thoughts

[Conan Troutman]

Brienne - damn, make her the right hand of something.

 

Preferably Jamie...

[littlelucia]

I didn't see a rape. I did see Cersei protest at first...presumably from grief and also awareness of the location. And I wondered if she was finally going to end their icky relationship - but then if you watch carefully, she begins kissing him back even as she is saying "no", then she clutches at him (as opposed to pushing him away) and at one point she pulls him closer to her.  She continues to pull at the fabric of his clothing, while he pulls at hers, and so it was indicative that she was getting into it. Gross? Certainly. Rapey? Not so much. 

[Colored Francie]

 

..if you watch carefully, she begins kissing him back even as she is saying "no", then she clutches at him (as opposed to pushing him away) and at one point she pulls him closer to her.  She continues to pull at the fabric of his clothing, while he pulls at hers, and so it was indicative that she was getting into it.

And when the scene ends, he's on top of her, with one hand she's gripping the fabric draped over Joffrey's slab, and says "Don't."

 

At this point, I'm prepared to give myself over to the director's explanation of the scene and accept that it wasn't a rape. This will be especially necessary if there's no fallout from either Cersei or Jaime in the next ep. But it could have and should have been directed and edited quite differently to avoid what so many, many people saw as a rape.