S04.E03: Breaker Of Chains 2014.04.20

[millahnna]

The sad thing is that if the intent was dubious initially but ultimately clear consent, it wouldn't have taken much to make to fix it to make that the more universal perception.  I can work with the scene on its own merits if the dubious nature is addressed by Cersei and/or Jamie in future episodes, though.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Jaime and Cersei shared a womb. I suspect they have some twin telepathy going on that we aren't privy to. The two of them are joined so intimately that I don't think either of them consider what happened to be rape even if we viewers do. We'll have to see how the writers proceed. There's no denying that it was a disturbing and powerful scene, with the emphasis on power.

Jaime and Cersei both lost something that defined them and neither of these two readily accepts any responsibility for their actions. Jaime lost his sword hand; the hand that made him the kingslayer and defines his role in the guard.  Cersei has essentially lost all of her children now that it's clear that Tywin will control Tommen. (And Jaime lost his children too.) 

Jaime came back from his ordeal/loss expecting comfort from the person he has been linked to since before birth and was rejected. Then, in the sept, with all of the wounds open and raw, Cersei demands that Jaime kill their brother - whom Jaime loves (and Cersei knows this). At that point, Cersei needed at least a big slap upside the head.  I also think - please correct me - that Jaime seems to have been faithful to Cersei. She had Lancel in her bed in no time.

 I am in no way condoning what Jaime did nor am I  suggesting Cersei, or any person in their world or ours, invites or deserves the violation that appears to have happened; it's just way more complex than the 30 seconds we saw. If anyone knows what was in Cersei's head at that moment, it was Jaime.  I think that scene followed quite logically from the circumstances and the crazy, possessive incestual relationship. I can't isolate the instance in the sept and place it in the same "rape is rape" category as, say, the three guys that dragged Sansa into the alleyway when she was rescued by the Hound. 

I hope that made sense; I'm up way too late.

[zmeliz]

I hated the rape scene and the insistence of the showrunners that it was "only" messed up sex.

They are saying that Cersei did not want to have sex because the time was wrong (she was grieving) and especially because they were next to his corpse, that if Jamie had initiated in another place, another time, she would have wanted to. But that is what makes it rape: whatever reason she had for saying no, it should matter that she said no. No reason for saying no to sex should ever be analyzed for validity, that is the mentality of rapists: it's silly to refuze just because...insert whatever reason here.... , you know you want to!

The one good thing about all the violence in this episode was that it underlined what people like Jaime, the Hound and Ygritte are really about and that this 'medieval fantasy' is actually a very savage place.

I liked the Danny scenes, maybe because she is the one ruler that appears to actually want the best for her people. Lately, the common people are showed to be starving, get raped, murdered and even cooked. I just want her to win and take over all the kingdoms.

[Mz Anthrope]

Given HBO's penchant for tits and ass shots of women - noting the lack of equal opportunity for male genitalia - their having Jamie take what he's been wanting since well before his return with the woman he 'loves' is not a surprise to me... nor is the network and director's acknowledgement of what they say we 'should have seen'.  My only knowledge of what's going on in this storyline comes from what I've seen on HBO. Gratuitous, raw, and one-sided doesn't surprise me.  Saddens and disappoints, absolutely.  Especially with their rationalizing and side-stepping.  But surprise?  Not really.

I can't invest my own morays into this show.  But I will continue to watch because I want to see what happens with certain characters. 

Edited April 26, 2014 by Mz Anthrope

[bravelittletoaster]

What i meant was that there doesn't appear to be a law universally applied which prohibits rape since there has been rape all over Westeros and beyond, and it's just been shrugged off by so many.

By that logic we must not have a law universally applied which prohibits rape in our world either.  Cause it's pretty common.

 

 

 

A picky point: in a non tech world, the word "fire" is not used as a command for a projectile attack as Dany did with the catapults.

I feel like there are a lot of verbal anachronisms on this show, actually.  And the ongoing "knife is spelled with a k" thing between Davos and Stannis' daughter is kind of cute but does my head in, because a: so are they speaking English?  b: or is the anachronistic spelling of knife in English meant to stand in as a metaphor for a similarly anachronistic spelling for a word in their language.  c: Because fyi if this were some earlier quasi medieval time and the language everyone's speaking were English in some parallel universe, English speakers DID pronounce the 'k' until the modern era, so there wasn't anything odd about the spelling of the word at all.  We just changed the pronunciation but kept the spelling, like a vestigial tail.

 

No, I can't turn the nerd off.  Sorry.

 

On another subject, I've seen mentioned a couple of times that Sansa has never developed a spine in re: her latest predicament in which she finds herself in.  I'm not some Sansa stan, I'm far more partial to Arya, but what would people have her do?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely wondering what people think her other option is?  Because I'm kind of at a loss.  Or do people just wish she'd kind of say fuck it and go down in the Westeros' equivalent in a hail of bullets?  Because I've never really felt like Stansa has options she's not taking...?  She just...has no options.

Edited April 27, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[sev]

On another subject, I've seen mentioned a couple of times that Sansa has never developed a spine in re: her latest predicament in which she finds herself in.  I'm not some Sansa stan, I'm far more partial to Arya, but what would people have her do?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely wondering what people think her other option is?  Because I'm kind of at a loss.  Or do people just wish she'd kind of say fuck it and go down in the Westeros' equivalent in a hail of bullets?  Because I've never really felt like Stansa has options she's not taking...?  She just...has no options.

I agree with you.  Had she sported Arya's attitude, she would have been flogged and worse. And one can't expect Sansa to act savvy like Margaery, being that even her father lacked the ingenuity (and shrewdness) to play the Game.

Edited April 27, 2014 by sev

[CeeBeeGee]

How the Jaime/Cersei scene should've gone.

Also can someone confirm something for me? (I'm afraid if I Google the answer I'll get spoiled.) I thought that Cersei was the one who originally said "there will come a day when your joy will turn to ashes," or whatever it was she was claiming Tyrion had said. Didn't Cersei say that when the two of them were seeing Myrcella off to Dorne?

[Attaboy000]

How the Jaime/Cersei scene should've gone.

Also can someone confirm something for me? (I'm afraid if I Google the answer I'll get spoiled.) I thought that Cersei was the one who originally said "there will come a day when your joy will turn to ashes," or whatever it was she was claiming Tyrion had said. Didn't Cersei say that when the two of them were seeing Myrcella off to Dorne?

 

Just checked and nope. It was Tyrion who said it to Cersei in Season 2, Episode 8.

[CeeBeeGee]

Thank you!

[DigitalCount]

Specifically, it was when Cersei was crowing about having found Ros via the Lannister pendant/brooch/some bit of jewelry, and thought that she, rather than Shae, was Tyrion's paramour.

Edited April 29, 2014 by DigitalCount

[Holmbo]

How the Jaime/Cersei scene should've gone.

Also can someone confirm something for me? (I'm afraid if I Google the answer I'll get spoiled.) I thought that Cersei was the one who originally said "there will come a day when your joy will turn to ashes," or whatever it was she was claiming Tyrion had said. Didn't Cersei say that when the two of them were seeing Myrcella off to Dorne?

Thanks for sharing that link. Interesting read.

I'm adding my thoughts kinda late because I've been traveling and not watching this episode until last night.

To me the Jaime Cersei scene looked 100% rape. I think one of the biggest reasons is that Jaime has been home for weeks and Cersei has presumably rejected him every time he tried to make a move on her. He knew she didn't want him and decided to have sex with her anyway.

[The Companion]

On 4/27/2014 at 3:52 PM, bravelittletoaster said:

 

On another subject, I've seen mentioned a couple of times that Sansa has never developed a spine in re: her latest predicament in which she finds herself in.  I'm not some Sansa stan, I'm far more partial to Arya, but what would people have her do?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely wondering what people think her other option is?  Because I'm kind of at a loss.  Or do people just wish she'd kind of say fuck it and go down in the Westeros' equivalent in a hail of bullets?  Because I've never really felt like Stansa has options she's not taking...?  She just...has no options.

She is also barely a teenager. Sure, in her world she is old enough to be married off and become a mother, but she is still so very young and isolated. Her sister is arguably tougher despite being younger, but she also sought out instruction on fighting. Sansa was raised learning how to needlepoint and obey a husband. It wouldn't feel like logical character development for her to fight or manipulate at this point in her life.

 

On 4/28/2014 at 10:55 PM, DigitalCount said:

Specifically, it was when Cersei was crowing about having found Ros via the Lannister pendant/brooch/some bit of jewelry, and thought that she, rather than Shae, was Tyrion's paramour.

I was glad they mentioned this line because despite binge watching this show, I was at a loss as to why Cersei was so convinced her brother was at fault. The throw back to this line justified her belief a bit more. 

 

I am apparently in the minority but I love Daenerys. I thought those barrels were going to contain weapons to help the slaves fight but the symbolism of broken bonds was so much cooler. I am excited to see what happens when she sets her eyes towards King's Landing, but I am fine with a slow build. It is satisfying to watch her come into her own.