S05.E08: Invasion!

[tennisgurl]

Also, just agreeing with others at how weirdly jokey and cheerful everyone in the Arrow cave was being when five of their friends have been abducted by aliens, and are possibly being tortured at that very moment. I usually like the quips and the fun stuff (especially as so much of the Arrow verse has gotten so dramatic lately) but come on guys! Maybe a few jokes, but a little bit of worry or urgency would be appropriate right now!

[tv echo]

21 minutes ago, looptab said:

Was this the first time Oliver said I love you to Laurel? I know he never said it romantically, but I thought he had said it some time as friends.

I don't recall if Oliver ever told Laurel that he loved her in S1, but he did say that he loved her in 4x19 (Canary Cry)...

Present day eulogy at Laurel's funeral:
Oliver: “Uh, I knew Laurel Lance for… almost her entire life. She was my friend, and I loved her. Before she died, I was - I was lucky enough to hear her tell me that she loved me, too. Laurel Lance became a lawyer to help people who may have appeared helpless. She wanted to give a voice to the silent, but just being a lawyer wasn't enough. She wanted to do more for those people and for this city because she loved this city so much. By now, everyone knows that Laurel was killed in the Iron Heights prison riot, and while it's true that she was an Assistant District Attorney, that's not what she was doing there that night. Before she died, Laurel told me the truth. Laurel Lance was the Black Canary. In the past few days, I have had to sit and listen to people try and paint the Black Canary as a criminal. She was not a criminal. She was a hero. She was a hero in every way that a person can be, and if Laurel were here, I know that she would expect all of us to live up to the example that she set. She'd want us to save our city.”

Flashback scene of Laurel reading a letter that Oliver left behind for her (along with his old photo of her) before he left for Lian Yu:
Oliver (voiceover): “Dear Laurel, I wrote this letter because I don't have the courage to see the disappointment on your face. I know you're gonna go on to do amazing things, to help people, and to raise this city up… because that's who you are, that's who you've always been, and that's why I have to go away. I would only hold you back. You're the hero, Laurel. Maybe I'll come back eventually, but for now, I have to spend some time alone. I hope someday you'll understand my decision. Never doubt my love for you. You've always seen the best in me because you've always been the best of me. All my love, Oliver.”

Edited December 1, 2016 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

57 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

The dialogue I took as them being lazy. Kind of  like when someone writes fanfic and uses the same phrases they are fond of over and over again.

After a rewatch I'm more inclined to think the use of the same dialogue was actually necessary. This was an alien created world they were in. Everything in it was presumably plucked from the hallucinators'(?) mind. Say the canary pendant, maybe the aliens don't know exactly what the bird means to the sisters only that it meant something to them and so they included it in Sara's dream. With Laurel, well, Oliver never got to the point of actually seriously wanting to marry her — or anybody else except Felicity, for that matter. But the aliens apparently really love weddings (maybe that's why they are invading Earth? They've seen all the reality-TV stuff about weddings?) and so they cheated and used the only template that exists for that kind of talk. Oliver's convos with Felicity. 

Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the writers are just lazy and self-plagiarizing bums :P

[KirkB]

36 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the writers are just lazy and self-plagiarizing bums :P

Seems likely.  :)

To give the Dominators the benefit of the doubt though, they don't presumably know too much about human psyches. They, or at least their machine, recognized that the Green Arrow was an important icon to both Oliver and Diggle so they put it in there without realizing what effect it would have. Same thing with the canary symbol. It was an important element to Sara, they probably didn't understand it connected her to her true life. We don't really know what Ray or Thea actually saw that made them realize things weren't real. By the same token, if they were just trying to get information it didn't really matter how good the simulation was, so long as it distracted them until they got whatever data they were after.

On the other hand, mind-controlling aliens with machines to create dream states for their prisoners should really consider locking the sleep chamber, or at least the room they're in. And I'd think they'd have the equivalent of cameras or alarms telling them the humans were wandering around the ship. If they couldn't even control a handful of un-powered humans on their own craft, how did they ever manage to threaten the Kryptonians? And Lyla might want to consider a new name because they really haven't been dominating much of anyone.

Edited December 1, 2016 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

51 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the writers are just lazy and self-plagiarizing bums :P

I think they can be, but I'm pretty sure the reuse of dialogue was intentional, and a way to bring the familiar - things they'd already said and heard - into this hallucination. It happened too many times for it not to be on purpose. 

[Mellowyellow]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Unpopular opinion: I thought Felicity was more Felicity in the DreamWorld than the real world. Real world was off (which I blame on the show trying to maintain the crossover FUN!).

I thought the team and the overall tone was more off than Felicity herself. She was sedate enough for me but the others looked like they were going to drink beers and order pizza and have a hacking party.

[LeighAn]

On rewatching am I wrong in seeing some meta-ness in all the "Smoak technology isn't suppose to be here-it's wrong" as commentary on Felicity not being canon? Which would make Smoak technology an even more interesting choice as the "way home". 

[Sunshine]

Ignore this post.  I have gone back and can't figure it out. LOL!  (I was doing something else at the time I was watching so I'm going to go with lost my mind.)  

I have seen tweets saying the same thing (brainwashed).  They are all right around 8:00 ET so I guess it could have been in the Previously on segment which isn't on my recording. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Sunshine

[Morrigan2575]

Do you know when he said that? Someone asked me and I don't even remember it

[Delphi]

Seeing Susanna was the best thing in the world.   She wasn't burn your world to ashes,  but I love mother Moira too . 

Seriously Barry, you fuck up the timeline in the worst of ways and you can't even bring Moira back to life and make the Queens rich again. 

The scene with Oliver saying goodbye to her broke my damn heart. 

[Mellowyellow]

Ok so I lied about not re watching. Felicity can get me to watch almost anything. 

For someone who is anti Olicity SA's "Felicity" when he remembered her was all kinds of awesome. 

[wonderwall]

34 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ok so I lied about not re watching. Felicity can get me to watch almost anything. 

For someone who is anti Olicity SA's "Felicity" when he remembered her was all kinds of awesome. 

Ummm... I don't think he's anti-Olicity?

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Ummm... I don't think he's anti-Olicity?

Isn't he the one that gets angry when people ask questions about Olicity and tells people they shouldn't be shippers? Him and MG?

Eta: Can someone help me move this post? Pretty please? Probably shouldn't be in this thread! I don't know how to move it!

Edited December 2, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[wonderwall]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

Isn't he the one that gets angry when people ask questions about Olicity and tells people they shouldn't be shippers? Him and MG?

I don't recall this happening. He got frustrated once at the last HVFF because people asking questions bordered/surpassed the line of being rude. Although, I could also see him be frustrated by being asked Olicity questions over and over again and not get annoyed by the repetitiveness of it all. 

But a few bouts of frustration doesn't mean he doesn't like them. You can see he still likes them when he posts meme-monday/fan-art friday things of Olicity, how he usually gets a smile on his face when he talks about them at cons, how he generally gives his scenes with Felicity his all (and trust me we can see it when he doesn't try - look at Loliver). 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Isn't he the one that gets angry when people ask questions about Olicity and tells people they shouldn't be shippers? Him and MG?

I didn't enjoy Stephens comments in the panel but he has always been pro Olicity and even at the con where he went into his shipper rant he gave an Olicity fan a spoiler for 5x09. So I wouldn't class him anti Olicity. 

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Mick wasn't taken because he's not an Arrow character. These crossover episodes seem to focus on the characters that were part of the show they were one. Mick and Stein got more focus on the Flash since that's where they originated. Ray seemed to get split between the Flash and Arrow, he got to tell Barry about Snart's death and got to be involved in the alien dream. I don't know why Felicity wasn't involved, I suppose being team tech someone needed to be with the newbies. LoT's episode will focus more on Sara and her team. 

I really think the reason that Felicity didn't get to go in the dream world or even get to break through to the dream world was because the show runners didn't want to deal with the kind of issues and questions it would have organically created.  Even if they'd had Felicity as super CEO that was saving the world with her life altering tech, they'd have to write a moment similar to what Oliver had when he remembered her and while they can have one of them remember how much they mean to each other, if they had both of them do that, then the narrative would demand a payoff to that and oops, the show still has her dating Mayo and Oliver having romantic something with the Reporter.  

Or they could have had them in the fantasy world decide they really are good with being not together and boy would I not want that either.  So in the end they IMO wimped out and just avoided doing anything with her really.  

Really the show is just in a really awkward place in the writing for honoring what her character has meant to the show.  So they put her in the episode and she had meaning but only flashback Felicity.  Current day Felicity is sidelined with no PoV or emotional stake in what's happening and Fantasy Felicity is there as a prop for Ray and Diggle. 

13 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Man I actually enjoyed the episode, Stephen Amell carried it and I teared up when he said goodbye to his parents. Smoak Technologies being the escape route they needed was the best things the writers gave to us Felicity Smoak fans.

I can't believe Felicity owned her own company and fought alongside the green Arrow at night. If that isn't the best thing, I don't know what is. Now writers, please make this happen on the show.

Actually she didn't.  Diggle's Felicity and then later Ray's Felicity both said (offscreen) they didn't know anything about it.  

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

I

Are we sure that AK didn't write this episode? Because I thought a lot of Oliver's dialogue supported AK's recent interview statement that Laurel is Oliver's "great love." I also thought that this episode downplayed Oliver's love for Felicity.

First, there's an OTA scene, where Oliver finds the Arrow Bunker and sees Felicity and Diggle (dressed as the Hood) there. He has Olicity memory flashes: meeting her for the first time, seeing her on their first date, their first kiss, their first time making love, when she was shot, and putting the ring on her finger at their fake wedding. Yet then, after remembering Felicity and softly saying her name, he immediately goes to see Laurel and desperately tries to convince her to marry him right away. And we get this dialogue:

Oliver (entering): "Laurel, I -"
Sara: "Don't you know it's bad luck to see the bride before the wedding?"
DreamLaurel: "Or skip out on the rehearsal dinner?"
Oliver: "I - I know. I said I was sorry."
Sara: "In a text."
Oliver: "Sara, can you give us a few minutes, please?"
Sara (to Oliver): "You're lucky I'm not a trained assassin or anything." (Leaves)
Oliver: "I... oh, wow. You, um - you look beautiful."
DreamLaurel: "I called you over 20 times last night."
Oliver: "I can't explain last night. I just... today - today, I want to marry you."
DreamLaurel: "Well, that's good because there are guests here."
Oliver: "No, not with guests, not in a few hours. Now. Laurel, I need to - I need to get out of here. I - we can elope."
DreamLaurel: "Oliver."
Oliver: "I'm being serious. I don't know what's going on with me right now. I just know that I want to be with you as quickly as humanly possible."
DreamLaurel: "What is going on with you?"
Oliver: "I - last night, somebody reminded me that I have everything. And I don't want to give it up. I'm afraid that I'm gonna give it up."
DreamLaurel: "Well, that's very sweet of you, but we have over 200 guests coming, and your parents, they've spent a fortune on this wedding."
Oliver: "I know, and I'm - I'm sorry if this is confusing or if I'm scaring you, but the only thing in the world that makes sense to me right now is that I love you. And I'm gonna take that job at Queen Consolidated, and I swear to God I'm gonna work every single day to be the man you fell in love with."

Later, there's this goodbye scene between Oliver and DreamLaurel:

DreamLaurel: "Ollie, Ollie, Ollie! What's happening."
Oliver: "I'm sorry. The person you fell in love with - that's not me. And I never deserved that love. And you always deserved better."
(Oliver holds her head with his hands and kisses her on the forehead for a long time.)
DreamLaurel: "Please."
Oliver: "I love you."
DreamLaurel: "I love you. Don't go!"
(Oliver walks away, stops and looks back at her, and then leaves.)

It sounded like Oliver's dream was still to be married to Laurel, that he only left the alien hallucination because of obligation, and that the only reason he didn't try to reconcile with Laurel in reality was because he didn't think he was good enough for her. Therefore, the implication was twofold: one, that since Oliver was willing to marry Felicity, he didn't think Felicity deserved better than him; and, two, that since he felt he was good enough for Felicity but not good enough for Laurel, Laurel was somehow superior to Felicity. In short, this episode implied that Laurel really was his great love and that Felicity was Oliver's second choice. Having recently watched Poldark, I'm reminded of the Ross-Demelza-Elizabeth love triangle, where Ross had this idealized image of Elizabeth and considered her, a gentlewoman, superior to Demelza, a miner's daughter. 

However, this implication/conclusion is contradicted by everything we've seen on the show over the past three seasons. Aside from the first season, Oliver never acted like he was still pining over Laurel or that he considered her superior to Felicity. Instead, he often acted like he barely tolerated Laurel's presence at times and didn't think about her all that much. Prime example: when Ra's stabbed Oliver, his last 'dying' thoughts were of his family and Felicity, not Laurel.

Continuing the Poldark comparison, Laurel might've been Oliver's love at one time, but it was clear from the past three seasons that that was no longer the case. So the 508 dialogue made no sense in the overall context of all four plus seasons of the show.

What did make sense to me is the idea that Laurel always had high expectations for Oliver and he was constantly disappointing her.  On the other hand, Felicity always believed in him and saw him as a hero (for the most part, putting aside the BMD). So I could understand why he would prefer to be around Felicity.

Marrying Laurel would have been a fraud but marrying Felicity would have been real.  The guy that Laurel loved wasn't him.  And though he said it more kindly, when he said the guy he'd been hadn't deserved her love, he implied IMO that he'd never been the guy that Laurel thought she loved. Their whole relationship had always been more fantasy than reality.   He actively deceived her then and pretty much led her on when he got back.  And then she died still thinking she was in love with him.  No one deserves that.  

Oliver in the dream world was told by Diggle and Felicity that he was crazy and why would he fight it when he had everything?  Oliver later states that the construct of the dream world was designed to pull you back in.  Oliver was still not sure what was real when he went to Laurel and begged her to marry him. None of it's real. He wasn't choosing Laurel over his real life, he was trying to hold onto the happiness of the dream world by clinging to the thing that would keep him in the dream and marrying Laurel meant everyone he loved was alive even if they weren't with him.  

He says the only thing that makes sense is that he loves her but not only is dream Oliver not real Oliver (so those feelings don't even belong to real Oliver for Laurel), even dream Oliver isn't the man that Laurel loved.  He's making all sorts of promises that even dream Oliver didn't want, like taking over the company.  

Laurel has always been a fantasy and Oliver clinging to that fantasy when he first came home caused a lot of pain.  And her death brought him a lot of guilt.  She died saying she was still in love with him but here we have Oliver explaining that no, she had never been in love with him, not really.  Ollie is long gone and even that guy wasn't worthy of her love (or anyone's) and that said to me that he saw that Laurel had been living in a fantasy as well. Even back then.  

I say his goodbye as letting go of the guilt of her loving him.  She didn't.  He did love her but we saw that it wasn't a romantic love, that hasn't changed.  Earlier, when he begged her to elope, that was still part of the confused delusion of him not knowing who he was.  But now he does and he leaves and he's still sad about her being dead, but he leaves IMO his guilt behind.   

In the final part over on LoT,  

Spoiler

Oliver talks to Barry and like Barry experienced in his time in Flashpoint, Oliver had been happy having his family around him and marrying the girlfriend and he could see a path in the past that could have taken him to that happy life, but it wasn't a full life and that was the gift, they got to see that what they had now was so much richer. so much fuller.

9 hours ago, Angel12d said:

It kinda felt like there were different Felicity's in the alien world though. I thought one was Diggle GA's partner and another was Ray's fiancée. It was almost like she was whatever they needed her to be at that moment in time.

I counted four.  Diggle's Felicity, Ray's Felicity, Current Felicity, and Flashback Felicity.  Only Dig's and Flashback Felicity really rang completely true to me.  

9 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think it was the only way to make Laurel the bride. If Oliver had his own Felicity that would have created troubles I'm not sure the writers could have solved.

Probably not without rewriting the rest of the season.

36 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ok so I lied about not re watching. Felicity can get me to watch almost anything. 

For someone who is anti Olicity SA's "Felicity" when he remembered her was all kinds of awesome. 

SA is a current storyline/company line guy.  He loved Olicity, of that I have no doubt, but he's always been the one to be a current episode supporter and right now on the show, there's nothing for him to really support.  

[Tazmania]

13 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Poor dumb Li'l Willy. (And Shado, who I'd have thought would be at least as important as Roy.)

I think the writers are trying to forget dumb Willy and baby mama ever existed (no one except for Stephen Amell liked that story line), until they can conveniently resurrect them for another stupid plot point some time in future. 

Maybe, by putting Felicity with all the dead holograms, they are saying that Felicity will be the one who dies this season ... I mean they kill/write off at least one regular character every season, right? Colin Donnell in S1, Manu Bannett and Susanna Thompson in S2, Sara Lance and Roy Harper in S3, Laurel Lance in S4. Considering that pattern, chances are, that we may end up losing Felicity Smoak in S5. They did say that they are ending one chapter in S5 and starting another next season. Who knows!!! 

[LeighAn]

Given the fact that Felicity plays not just a significant role in Arrow but also in the Flash and now LOT verse and she is by far the most popular character of the Berlanti verse as a whole I doubt Felicity would intentionally be written out unless Emily wanted to leave herself and could convince the CW to let her out of her contract.

[wonderwall]

20 minutes ago, Tazmania said:

I think the writers are trying to forget dumb Willy and baby mama ever existed (no one except for Stephen Amell liked that story line), until they can conveniently resurrect them for another stupid plot point some time in future. 

Maybe, by putting Felicity with all the dead holograms, they are saying that Felicity will be the one who dies this season ... I mean they kill/write off at least one regular character every season, right? Colin Donnell in S1, Manu Bannett and Susanna Thompson in S2, Sara Lance and Roy Harper in S3, Laurel Lance in S4. Considering that pattern, chances are, that we may end up losing Felicity Smoak in S5. They did say that they are ending one chapter in S5 and starting another next season. Who knows!!! 

again, the reason why both her and Roy were included was...

13 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Because it was everyone Oliver lost both physically and emotionally. I was surprised that the writers handled loss so sensitively. Because you can lose people in more ways than one.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Tazmania said:

Maybe, by putting Felicity with all the dead holograms, they are saying that Felicity will be the one who dies this season ... I mean they kill/write off at least one regular character every season, right? Colin Donnell in S1, Manu Bannett and Susanna Thompson in S2, Sara Lance and Roy Harper in S3, Laurel Lance in S4. Considering that pattern, chances are, that we may end up losing Felicity Smoak in S5. They did say that they are ending one chapter in S5 and starting another next season. Who knows!!! 

That's what the noobs are for. Cannon fodder.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As a crossover episode, this failed for me. I think crossover episodes are supposed to integrate cast member/storylines from different shows. The Flash episode gave Kara, Oliver, and LoT members stuff to do. But this Arrow episode was basically an Arrow episode with brief appearances from Sara and Ray.

To put it another way, a friend of mine who only watches Supergirl said she was going to watch the Flash crossover episode. She asked me if she should watch the Arrow episode afterward and I told her not to bother because Kara isn't in it and plotwise, the only thing that happens between the end of Flash episode and the end of the Arrow episode is that the people who are kidnapped by aliens have a weird dream together and then escape.

The group hallucination was a little too Normal Again from Buffy. Look at what your life could be if you just stay here in your head! No? Okay then, back to fighting monsters and stuff!

Rene needs to STFU. You don't trust people with powers? But it's okay to train with Rory because it's just his weird rags that have powers, not him, right? Maybe I have watched too many episodes of the Flash and Agents of SHIELD, but powers are like anything else - they don't determine whether you're good or bad, so making assumptions about people just because they are different is a little too intolerant for my taste. That would be bad enough but then when you take into account his general attitude about women, people, life in general, Rene is just sour, cranky, rude, and condescending. In other words, UGH.

Another huge con of this episode: having to see Laurel again. I thought I was finally rid of her, damn it!

The best part about this episode was Oliver hugging his parents before he left.

[bijoux]

Come now, Kara was in it enough to get mouthed off by Wild Dong.

But I agree that this didn't really deliver as a crossover episode. It's funny considering how a lot of people feared that the 100th episode would get swallowed up by the crossover and it turned out the other way around.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

But I agree that this didn't really deliver as a crossover episode. It's funny considering how a lot of people feared that the 100th episode would get swallowed up by the crossover and it turned out the other way around.

Which, IMO, is fine. Arrow was the parent show. It was the only one that had the clout to say okay, crossover, fine, but we're celebrating our 100th whether you like it or not.

[Chaser]

Felicity excitedly punching Rory over alien tech is adorable.  His expression reminded me of Wells when he watched Felicity Drop the Mic, like he just wanted to laugh. 

[tv echo]

After sleeping on it overnight, I wish to amend part of my previous post in this thread...

I originally said that Oliver's comment to Laurel that she deserved better than him implied that he didn't think Felicity deserved better than him since he was willing to marry Felicity. I was wrong. During his fake wedding to Felicity in 416, he said to her, "you brought me into the light. You let me know that I deserved it. You were that light. And I don't know if I still deserve that trust, if I deserve you - I probably don't." Oliver wanted to marry Felicity so much that he wasn't willing to give her up. 

Part of Oliver's problem, I think, is that he never really feels like he deserves to be loved. After he had his one-night stand with Isabel in 206, Felicity told him, "Well, I think – I think you deserve better than her.” In 317, when Oliver found out that Felicity's then boyfriend, Ray Palmer, also wanted to be a vigilante, he told her, "No, I meant what I said [about wanting you to be happy], right up to the point where I found out that he is just like me. You deserve better."  And when Oliver said goodbye to DreamLaurel in 508, he told her: "I'm sorry. The person you fell in love with - that's not me. And I never deserved that love. And you always deserved better."

However, I still find it odd that, after having the Olicity memory flashes - as well as the Diggle memory flashes - in 508, Oliver went to see Laurel and asked her to elope with him, saying: "I - last night, somebody reminded me that I have everything. And I don't want to give it up. I'm afraid that I'm gonna give it up." It still sounds like his dream life included being married to Laurel, even though that meant giving up Felicity and Diggle.  As I said before, this is inconsistent with what we've seen on the show over the past four years.

The only way that I can reconcile that Oliver statement with show canon is to interpret it this way - the "everything" that Oliver didn't want to give up was the following: his parents alive, Laurel alive, Tommy alive, being a decent human being that even Quentin would approve, a bright career in the family business, no killing or violence, and a loving marriage. In other words, his dream of happiness included marrying a woman he loved and who loved him back (Laurel in the hallucination, Felicity in IvyTown).

Edited December 2, 2016 by tv echo

[EmilyBettFan]

It's a mind game the aliens were playing with him. He noticed inconsistencies right away. He went exploring for the truth. Which to me, actually shows him as pretty strong to withhold the aliens power over him.

[Midnight Lullaby]

19 minutes ago, tv echo said:

 

However, I still find it odd that, after having the Olicity memory flashes - as well as the Diggle memory flashes - in 508, Oliver went to see Laurel and asked her to elope with him, saying: "I - last night, somebody reminded me that I have everything. And I don't want to give it up. I'm afraid that I'm gonna give it up." It still sounds like his dream life included being married to Laurel, even though that meant giving up Felicity and Diggle.  As I said before, this is inconsistent with what we've seen on the show over the past four years.

The only way that I can reconcile that Oliver statement with show canon is to interpret it this way - the "everything" that Oliver didn't want to give up was the following: his parents alive, Laurel alive, Tommy alive, being a decent human being that even Quentin would approve, a bright career in the family business, no killing or violence, and a loving marriage. In other words, his dream of happiness included marrying a woman he loved and who loved him back (Laurel in the hallucination, Felicity in IvyTown).

I took it as him panicking. Imagine starting to see flashes and starting to remember feelings for people that are supposedly strangers..that had to freak him out. The reality familiar to him in that moment was being Laurel's fiancée and his parents being alive so I think he thought that if he tried hard enough everything was going back to normal and he was going to stop feeling like he was losing it like Dig suggested when they met. He thought Oliver was having a mental breakdown initially.

Then when he realized and accepted that he was in a alien induced hallucination he was ready to leave as soon as possible.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[looptab]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Felicity excitedly punching Rory over alien tech is adorable.  His expression reminded me of Wells when he watched Felicity Drop the Mic, like he just wanted to laugh. 

I want more of these two. Like, every Wild  Dong scene should be them instead.

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, Tazmania said:

 Maybe, by putting Felicity with all the dead holograms, they are saying that Felicity will be the one who dies this season ... I mean they kill/write off at least one regular character every season, right? Colin Donnell in S1, Manu Bannett and Susanna Thompson in S2, Sara Lance and Roy Harper in S3, Laurel Lance in S4. Considering that pattern, chances are, that we may end up losing Felicity Smoak in S5. They did say that they are ending one chapter in S5 and starting another next season. Who knows!!! 

I'm honestly at a loss as to how this could even be possibility after this crossover event.

Out of the 3 nights (I don't count Supergirl) only 8 characters appeared in all 3 shows, Barry, Cisco, Diggle, Felicity, Kara, Oliver, Sara and Ray. 

Not only that but, Felicity held a very prominent role in the LoT episode and, Cisco and Felicty trended last night (not sure if anything else did).  Additionally, Felicity was portrayed in the Arrow episode to show how important she is to Team Arrow, she's working with Diggle!Arrow in the dream world, they deliberately threw in an OTA scene to highlight how important that is to the history of the show. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Arrow Has Some Guests

Everyone who's ever been on the show, and a handful of people from other shows, all stop by to vex Oliver and his pals.

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm honestly at a loss as to how this could even be possibility after this crossover event.

If there's a constant in every season of Arrow, it's the fear? hope? that "Maybe Felicity is going to die/get written off". I wasn't around for season 1, but I remember in season 2 when there was spec that she'll get sent to be a regular on Flash. In season 3, when it was obvious Ray was on the show to get another spinoff, there was spec Felicity was to go with him to the new show. And who could forget season 4, when she was totally, definitely the one in the grave?

That's never going away, is all I'm saying, no matter what happens on screen.

[Starfish35]

I'm going to apologize in advance for saying this, but....

I'd forgotten just how much KC's closed-mouth smile annoys me.  When KC smiles, really smiles, I think she's absolutely gorgeous.   But the closed-mouth smile always makes her look smug and fake to me.  

I feel bad for even saying it, but....well.  There it is.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I'm going to apologize in advance for saying this, but....

I'd forgotten just how much KC's closed-mouth smile annoys me.  When KC smiles, really smiles, I think she's absolutely gorgeous.   But the closed-mouth smile always makes her look smug and fake to me.  

I feel bad for even saying it, but....well.  There it is.

I have the same thought.

It was really bugging me in the dressing room scene with Oliver. He is giving this impassioned speech and that smile just seemed like KC feeling smug.

[Starfish35]

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I have the same thought.

It was really bugging me in the dressing room scene with Oliver. He is giving this impassioned speech and that smile just seemed like KC feeling smug.

Yes!  That's exactly the scene where it most bothered me.

[Chaser]

She looked gorgeous in the shower room scene but the dressing room moment read like the jacket trade too me. 

[Cthulhudrew]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 6:01 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I don't get emotional at Arrow much lately, but the Thea/Oliver scene was so, so well done. I genuinely teared up. Willa Holland and Stephen Amell knocked that scene out of the park, with Thea not wanting to go and Oliver knowing that at least he had to. And the realization that he would have to leave Thea behind because he couldn't force her to go? Heartbreaking. Even if she joined the group in the next scene, it was still rough. Also, seeing Susanna again. Moira had little to do, but at least she got to have one last scene with Thea and Oliver. 

This was a very well done scene. It even had me wondering for a minute if this episode was actually going to be Willa's swan song and the show was writing Thea out. I quickly discarded that notion, and figured that she would end up joining back up with everyone else, but it was so well done by both of them, that I was almost hoping that the show creators would have been ballsy enough to do it that way.

Then again, Willa is one of the real highlights of Arrow these days that it would have been a shame. She has grown leaps and bounds from season 1 as an actress and gets some of the best- and most consistent- writing on the show.

[blackwing]

Never seen Supergirl or Flash, I only watch Arrow and LoT.  Even though I knew it was the crossover, I didn't bother to watch Supergirl or Flash.  So this was my first exposure to Supergirl.  I have to say, I am very underwhelmed.  The actress seemed to get lots of hype last year, but I found her absolutely laughingly bad. When they showed her in the previouslies and when she made her entrance, flying in, swooping up, whatnot... I just felt like she was acting like Vanna White in the heydey of Wheel of Fortune in the mid to late 1980s.  You know, the part where Pat Sajak introduces her, she struts on to the stage, and does a little twirl to show off her outfit?  That's how I felt with the "and hey, here's my friend Supergirl".

Moreover, the actress is terrible.  Her line delivery is so wooden and artificial, particularly that scene when Wild Dung was talking about how they act like they can just save the world with their powers and she's all "well, we kind of do".  And what's up with constantly putting her hands on her hips or crossing her arms?  I know that's the "traditional" Superman pose, but she made it look cheesy and ridiculous.

Also, when Felicity realised that her friends were in outer space, why didn't she just give the coordinates to Supergirl and Supergirl could have gone into outer space to save them?

Loved seeing Robert and Moira Queen again.  I really miss Moira Queen.  Loved that Oliver got a chance to say goodbye.  Thea's talk with Oliver was heartbreaking.  I've always hated Laurel so I thought it was funny he was basically all just "see ya" and just took off.

Can't be said enough... Wild Dung is perhaps the worst new character introduced on TV this year.  When can he die????

Edited December 2, 2016 by blackwing

[bethy]

The dressing room scene played all kinds of weird to me. Laurel simply stands there gazing at herself in the mirror first while Sara snipes (rightfully so given his behavior) and then at the beginning of Oiver's little melt-down. It left me the lingering/continuing feeling that for Laurel the prize was the wedding itself, not Oliver. She doesn't seem particularly angry or upset, just annoyed, like it looked bad for him to have skipped out on the reherasal as opposed it meaning that maybe her fiancee had done a runner. To me it was like her refusal to listen to Sara tell her that Oliver was cheating on her and doubling down on their moving in together. 

I don't know; it just seemed odd. And the fact that her closed mouth smile does seem smug to me, as well, just added to the strangeness for me.

[looptab]

44 minutes ago, bethy said:

she doesn't seem particularly angry or upset, just annoyed,

I can't decide whether that's just because she was AlienDreamWorld Laurel, or if Real Laurel would have done the same, hahah.

Edited December 2, 2016 by looptab

[Starfish35]

I have a hard time criticizing Laurel herself in the episode because, well, she's not real.  And I'm honestly not sure how much of her is made up of Oliver's and Sara's idealized memories, and how much of her is alien avatar.  For example, when she comes running out at the end in her wedding dress to beg them to stay, is that their memories bringing her out, or is it the alien programming making a last ditch effort to keep them in the simulation?  I'm not sure.  

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Moreover, the actress is terrible.  Her line delivery is so wooden and artificial, particularly that scene when Wild Dung was talking about how they act like they can just save the world with their powers and she's all "well, we kind of do".  And what's up with constantly putting her hands on her hips or crossing her arms?  I know that's the "traditional" Superman pose, but she made it look cheesy and ridiculous.

I watch Supergirl and IMO, Melissa Benoist is an excellent actor. She has tremendous range from light comedy to angst and everything in between. Unfortunately, the crossover couldn't really use Supergirl to her full advantage because she is too powerful in the Flarrowverse.

[statsgirl]

Maybe Laurel was so used to Oliver  ignoring her of doing a runner, she just accepted it as part of the price she had to pay for marrying him.

On 2016-12-01 at 9:27 AM, RedVitC said:

And then when Barry and Kara arrive there is no sign of any distress in them at all that their friends have been kidnapped. Nope, they're just grinning all over the place an even joking about what Oliver, who is missing, would do if he were there. And then they disappear again. And I get that they wanted to do a cool fight sequence, but doing a little high five, and then picking up a nearly unconscious woman just to punch her again with super powers didn't make them look cool, it made them look like jerks.

I blame the EPs insane desire to have Wild Dog be an important part of the show, and their completely blindness as to how he's really coming off.

On 2016-12-01 at 2:06 PM, Angel12d said:

It kinda felt like there were different Felicity's in the alien world though. I thought one was Diggle GA's partner and another was Ray's fiancée. It was almost like she was whatever they needed her to be at that moment in time.

She was whoever was creating her in that moment.  Diggle created the tech partner he needed; Ray created the arm candy for the party. Oliver waited till the last moment to create the holographic memory to keep fighting that he needed to leave the dream world.

23 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think it was the only way to make Laurel the bride. If Oliver had his own Felicity that would have created troubles I'm not sure the writers could have solved.

LOL!

23 hours ago, Chaser said:

Unpopular opinion: I thought Felicity was more Felicity in the DreamWorld than the real world. Real world was off (which I blame on the show trying to maintain the crossover FUN!).

The Real World Felicity has been off all season long (e.g. the undergrad creator of the super hacking program at MIT suddenly needs engineer Curtis to write an algorithm).  DreamWorld Felicity was culled from earlier seasons of the show.

[Primal Slayer]

Thea had a small comment about how Oliver/Laurel reconnected so it seemed like they broke up for a while before getting back together and engaged. She seemed rather upset/annoyed that Oliver disappeared right before the wedding, probably thinking to herself "has he really changed" . 

Though it made no sense why they had Laurel downstairs at the reception with everyone acting like everything was ok.

But again, Sara/Laurel were just utter perfection, you could tell they hadn't seen each other in a while


 

[Chaser]

I thought that was Laurel and KCs best scene.  I'm surprised there wasn't a scene with Lance and his daughters.

The wedding day was weird. Laurel, Thea and Sara were in their wedding attire all day long. The bride was at the cocktail hour with the guests. No one was concerned that the groom was MIA all day.

[Starfish35]

29 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I thought that was Laurel and KCs best scene.  I'm surprised there wasn't a scene with Lance and his daughters.

Yeah, it's strange that there was a scene with Oliver and Quentin, but none with Sara and Quintin.  Maybe because Quentin's still alive?

Speaking of that, it makes me wonder why Thea didn't mention to Sara that her dad's kind of having a hard time and maybe she should stop by?  In the real world, I mean, not in the simulation.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Quote

The wedding day was weird. Laurel, Thea and Sara were in their wedding attire all day long. The bride was at the cocktail hour with the guests. No one was concerned that the groom was MIA all day.

That's what happens when you let naked aliens throw your wedding.

Edited December 2, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Mellowyellow]

Question: 

I've read a few things written by people who seem to think that Felicity in the lair was also Oliver's Dream Felicity.

When I watched it I thought she was Dig's Dream Felicity. 

I can sort of see how you can interpret that she is Oliver's Dream Felicity once he entered the lair but I'm more inclined to think she was Dig's. Dig definitely had his own Felicity that he asked about Smoak Tech. But once Oliver see's her is she his Felicity or is he seeing Dig's Felicity? She seemed more "real" than Ray's Felicity who kind of went glitchy when Ray walked off. 

Wondering what everyone thinks.

Or these writers are just hacks and this is a Felicity they decided to insert in the scene. End of story. 

[BunsenBurner]

I finally watched all 4 shows. I actually think Arrow was the best. I am soooo glad that I have stopped watching Supergirl and The Flash it was like watching two preteens in a giggling match, ridiculous. I am however glad that I did watch The Flash so that I got the context of the dream sequence in Arrow. That was, to me, the only reason it needed to be watched. LOT was also bad because they again showed that Barry can do whatever he wants to mess up the timeline and its okay if the other heroes say so.  I was greatly disappointed in the whole mess. 

[MissLucas]

Those perfect alternative reality plots that force the hero to sacrifice fake happiness and return to grim reality to fight the good fight are always bringing out spectacular work by the actors involved. 'What is and what should never be' is still one of my favorite Supernatural episodes.

Still not digging the newbies and Wild Dog and his misogynist attitude can go to hell anytime. No idea why the writers seem to like him so much. 

[catrice2]

Someone up thread perfectly summed up what I don't like about the Supergirl portrayal, and to a lesser degree the Flash.  Overall, right now I think with the supporting characters they have the better shows, but the leads just don't do it for me.  They play both Kara and Barry as little kids trying to fit into an adult world.  Even trying to have Barry as the "leader" was a joke. He was like the annoying little brother trying to tell his big brother's friends what to do, and Kara was like the new kid in school trying to hard....or the awkward cheerleader who was let on the team with all the cool kids.  I like Supergirl, but until recently that was mainly because of Alex and Jonn.  Unlike others, I don't put the failure of the James/Kara on James...I don't think Kara has had adult chemistry with anyone, based upon the way they play her.  You can be insecure and nerdy without acting immature.....that is what they don't get with Barry and Kara.  If they want them to have the weight of the world on their shoulders making such important decisions, portray them as adults! 

That has been one of my major complaints about Barry's timeline issues....in all that I can remember but one, he made the decision to do it like a kid impulsively doing something. 

 

Sorry- Just realized I am in Arrow 

Edited December 4, 2016 by catrice2
Wrong thread