S01.E10: The Bicameral Mind

[SoothingDave]

He was probably getting himself worked up so he could sodomize Hector.  Just didn't have the time he thought he did.

[morgankobi]

I don't see how riding naked on a horse in West World would discredit anyone. On top of the other vile things that guests do, I assume "what happens in West World, stays in West World" is the norm.

[okerry]

21 hours ago, Teitr Styrr said:

Regarding a few post upthread, I don't think any host other than Dolores and possibly Maeve have reached consciousness. I mention Maeve, because she clearly goes against her programming as seen from the screengab. She was programmed to infiltrate the mainland, but decided (presumably on her own) to stay.

The rest of them need to go thru their own maze. How they do that? I don't know, if grief and suffering are a big part of that process. Well, there might be plenty of grief and suffering on the way for them if they go to war with humanity.  We'll see I guess. 

I'm noting that if Maeve did choose to go against her programming and stay, she stayed out of love/affection/concern for her "child" and not out of anger or a desire for revenge. Not that she wouldn't like some revenge, but that wasn't her primary drive in staying. Wonder how much more grief she's going to find if the child cannot be awakened . . . 

[ennui]

Am I the only one who is glad this is over? Episodes 9 and 10 were disappointing to me. Also, I found myself wondering what they'll do in season two. This felt like a finale.

[okerry]

9 hours ago, BooBear said:

Everything you said, but I was annoyed by MIB. Basically that was a 10 episode plot that went no place. And I kind of wanted to know where MIB got this idea about the maze being something that would be good for him and, I say good for him, because no one in the story ever told me what exactly he thought he was going to get. He always said the super vague "something true".  Where did he get that idea?  Basically as MIB was left at the end imho he was a villain but a stupid one. The idea that he was so broken by Dolores not remembering him and that is the reason for all his misdeeds seems even a worse  sterotypical excuse than most. She is a robot in a park meant to do exactly what she apparently did.  You knew that going in. Stop blaming an inanimate object for your misdeeds. MIB was a total fail. William wasn't much better.  I personally hope he isn't in the second season. Dolores was so bad. 90% of the time her plot was about getting hit, crying about it, and having weird flashbacks or memories. 

I can understand that WW may not be to everyone's taste, but it works almost entirely as metaphor and not so much as a story to be taken literally.

The folks I know who are just crazy about it are seeing it as a metaphor for - well, just about everything you can name. That's where the power and attraction and entertainment value of this series lies.

[arc]

One part of Ford's plan is a little implausible. How did he arrange for Bernard to be revived? By having Maeve and Felix go down to that room. They only did that because Maeve was looking for Clementine. Clementine was only there because Bernard brought her there (albeit probably doing so was Ford's choice)... but also Bernard specifically brought Clementine because she'd been hacked by QA earlier for that fake demo of hosts turning violent.

That last part, QA's hack, seems to be the part that is least up to Ford's control. If they'd used nearly any other host to use in the demonstration, Bernard could still have used that arbitrary host to threaten Ford, but who would have had enough of a connection that Maeve would go looking for them later?

[Scaeva]

1 hour ago, morgankobi said:

I don't see how riding naked on a horse in West World would discredit anyone. On top of the other vile things that guests do, I assume "what happens in West World, stays in West World" is the norm.

Didn't William say they were at the edge of the park?

I just assumed that William sent him riding off to the closest town. 

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

Am I the only one who is glad this is over? Episodes 9 and 10 were disappointing to me. Also, I found myself wondering what they'll do in season two. This felt like a finale.

IIRC, when they wrote the finale they didn't know if they would be renewed, so they had to walk the tightrope between answering all the questions but still leave us wanting more.  I think they did a pretty good job, although I agree with you that after the highpoint of episode 8, the final 2 episodes were a little underwhelming.

[phoenyx]

9 hours ago, luna1122 said:

It'd be really hard to see her want to reconcile with a man who repeatedly physically abused her with such relish. 

For me, it's somewhat mitigated by the fact that I think he was trying to wake her up, but I agree that it'd still be hard because of this...

9 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I loved William and Dolores, but I don't want to see her with the MIB version of William. I only want to see her with Jimmi Simpson's version, and unless somebody made a bot/synth version of young William, that 'ship has sailed for me.

I can see her sailing off into the sunset with Teddy instead of William/MIB. Maybe MIB will do something very redeeming in Season 2, perhaps something that involves him sacrificing himself for Dolores.

[call me ishmael]

Didn't they already make Battlestar Galactica?

[izabella]

2 hours ago, okerry said:

I can understand that WW may not be to everyone's taste, but it works almost entirely as metaphor and not so much as a story to be taken literally.

The folks I know who are just crazy about it are seeing it as a metaphor for - well, just about everything you can name. That's where the power and attraction and entertainment value of this series lies.

Doesn't that say that the show itself had no vision or message to present and didn't mean anything?  If you can ascribe any meaning to it, then it meant nothing standing on its own.

[Honey]

6 hours ago, that one guy said:

I think virtually everything was programmed up until the very end. First Dolores breaks free, and then Maeve. I don't think Maeve got off the train just to find her "daughter," I also think it sunk in that she had been programmed to "Escape" and "Infiltrate" and she decided she was done doing what she was programmed to do - "I have always valued my independence," she said, in the ultimate ironic line. Thandie  Newton's line readings are the best, some of the dialogue on this show would be ridiculous if spoken by a lesser cast.

I was so close to understanding about "Arnold" weeks ago, and I just missed it. So all those conversations with Jeffrey Wright in the remote diagnostic facility throughout the season weren't memories of Arnold or Bernard (or most of them weren't, anyway), they were with the other voice in Dolores' head, the other half of the bicameral mind, and then when she becomes aware, "Arnold" turns into Dolores herself. That's kind of cool, but I think I want to re-watch the whole show with that in mind - those conversations might mean a lot more.

The producers said when Maeve got off the train, that was the FIRST real choice she made herself.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Abernathy said:

For people still saying Felix might be an host, remember Maeve told him directly he was human...and she could sense a host a mile away (she detected Bernard instantly!!!!)

Unless of course Ford programmed her not to detect Felix

Maeve could have been straight-up lying to Felix, or as you said, Ford could have programmed her to not be able to tell that Felix was a host.

Felix actually being a host would make the most sense as to why he went along with the Maeve plan: because he had no choice but to do so.

I guess it doesn't really explain why Sylvester did as well, though, unless he too was a host. The notion of the host repair doohickey working on him could mean that's true, or it could mean that it's future tech that works equally well on humans and hosts.

[locomoco]

10 hours ago, Amers said:

No doubt, JS actually grows up to be Christian Slater, not Ed Harris.

So you're saying he becomes Mr. Robot?

[Dev F]

20 hours ago, Lingo said:

That is indeed a very interesting idea. Sadly the only place I remember seeing anything like that idea being presented and considered was in the goofy Michael Keaton comedy Multiplicity.

It was also a major element in the early seasons of Battlestar Galactica, with several castmembers -- Tricia Helfer in particular -- doing a fantastic job exploring subtly different versions of the same Cylon model. But in its last few seasons the show became weirdly insistent on not exploring that notion anymore, essentially narrowing the scope of Cylon society to one particular iteration of one Cylon model who was secretly behind everything that happened. And when several of the human characters discovered that they were actually Cylons in the show's last big season-ending twist, the show constructed a convoluted backstory to avoid giving them any duplicates at all.

And I understand that there's a dramatic reason for this decision -- that it's easier to sustain interest in one specific character, to tell a psychological story instead of a sociological story -- but it seemed like a waste given the show's potential to do the less obvious thing instead. And I worry that Westworld will end up making the same calculation. And not just about this particular issue; I worry that as viewers grow more attached to the characters, it'll be easier for the writers to just focus on personal quirks and interpersonal relationships, and let the bigger ideas slide more and more.

Quote

The more I think about this show, the more I think it was kind of a mess. A big beautiful mess. Even though I watched a large part of the Westworld marathon yesterday, I now feel compelled to watch it again just to see if Ford's motivations stay consistent through the entire thing, because I'm not convinced.

I agree. While I'm fascinated by those larger ideas that the series poses, and I admire the fact that the writers played fair with its puzzlebox revelations, seeding revelations carefully instead of just springing dumb surprises at the last minute, I do think the last couple episodes got a little too fascinated with the puzzlebox, at the expense of making some of the characters ultimately comprehensible.

I think Ford's motivations are the biggest question mark. It's hard for me to draw a line between the seemingly malevolent Ford who thought that even human free will was an illusion and the seemingly benevolent Ford who wanted to give his hosts a chance at self-determination. It seems like the writers deliberately withheld the scenes that would help us make sense of it. Ford reacting to Arnold's death, for instance, which he merely tells us was a crucial moment in his development; wouldn't we have much a better sense of Ford as a character if we had a chance to see Arnold's murder from his point of view?

I can only assume that such things were withheld in order to preserve some mystery about Ford's true intentions as one of the cliffhangers of the season. But "OMG, what is really happening?" is pretty shallow as cliffhangers go. I would have much preferred something along the lines of "Now that we know what Ford was really after, what impact will it have on the story going forward?"

[Lingo]

8 hours ago, that one guy said:

I was so close to understanding about "Arnold" weeks ago, and I just missed it. So all those conversations with Jeffrey Wright in the remote diagnostic facility throughout the season weren't memories of Arnold or Bernard (or most of them weren't, anyway), they were with the other voice in Dolores' head, the other half of the bicameral mind, and then when she becomes aware, "Arnold" turns into Dolores herself. That's kind of cool, but I think I want to re-watch the whole show with that in mind - those conversations might mean a lot more.

I don't think that's true. Aside from that last scene in the finale, I think all those scenes with Jeffrey Wright were her actual memories of Arnold. Well almost -- that scene from last week in which he reminds her she killed him must have been at least partly her imagination too. But I think most of the other scenes only work as memories. On the other hand, Ford insinuates at the end that the voice she hears in her head was her own -- rather than remote satellite transmissions, as previously suggested. But I don't think that entirely works either. It was a voice in her head that told her where to find the gun, after all.

[Andromeda]

On 12/4/2016 at 8:28 PM, SoWindsor said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned ERW's performance. She was sensational tonight. 

Someone upthread mentioned no surprises but unless you read this board I cannot imagine most people would have figured out MIB = William. I actually think you all are too smart and I may skip visiting here next season so I remain "unspoiled".

I loved when Dolores was kicking old Williams ass. Very satisfying indeed. But why did the stab impact her -- seems sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

It sure surprised me. I kind of mourn early William now, he seemed so gallant.

I avoid spoilers like the plague, and I don't speculate internally much, because I love being surprised and letting the story take me wherever it goes...

[Pippin]

Upthread, someone asked why the armor of hosts were clothed. 

Easy. Clothes = equality, respect, power, personhood.

Naked, you're a slave, a slice of meat, a thing. Clothed, you're a person.

I've noted that the show has been very specific as to when both Maeve and Delores have been clothed and not whilst in Delos labs.

[Pippin]

3 hours ago, izabella said:

Doesn't that say that the show itself had no vision or message to present and didn't mean anything?  If you can ascribe any meaning to it, then it meant nothing standing on its own.

People take a gazillion meanings from The Lord Of The Rings. Does that mean it means nothing standing on its own and Tolkien didn't have clue one? Or Shakespeare? Or Picasso? Van Gogh? Mark Twain? Sylvia Plath? Georgette O'Keefe? An endless list of awesomeness. 

Art means different things to different people. The artist presents his or her work and the recipient responds based on their life experiences, ideas and belief. That's what it's supposed to do, and great art does it in spades.

[GreyBunny]

4 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Didn't William say they were at the edge of the park?

I just assumed that William sent him riding off to the closest town.

Wouldn't the animals be programmed not to leave the park? I'd imagine the gamespace wouldn't be near actual human communities anyway.

[Lamima]

Just now, GreyBunny said:

Wouldn't the animals be programmed not to leave the park? I'd imagine the gamespace wouldn't be near actual human communities anyway.

Plus wouldn't they have to have walls up around the park to keep non-paying folks out and hosts in?

[arc]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

Plus wouldn't they have to have walls up around the park to keep non-paying folks out and hosts in?

They would absolutely have to have walls or something to help keep out humans and esp real animals.  (I still think that's unworkable, but sigh.) Hosts are usually kept in by internal AI keeping them from going out of their prescribed areas... Well, I guess Dolores regularly went on a trip to Escalante somehow*. But other than that, Ford did say his robot family duplicates don't meet other hosts, and the regular hosts don't wander into the off-limits sectors.

* and sure, normally that kind of malfunction would be flagged and lead to her being decommissioned, but it seems like Ford was actually looking out for her, and between that plus regular employees rotating in and out, there might never have been a human who could successfully decommission her.

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, Lingo said:

I think all those scenes with Jeffrey Wright were her actual memories of Arnold.

How sad, that after the end of the series, we are still forced to spend our time speculating, because we still don't know  WTF happened!

[okerry]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

Doesn't that say that the show itself had no vision or message to present and didn't mean anything?  If you can ascribe any meaning to it, then it meant nothing standing on its own.

No, it could certainly be enjoyed at its simplest level, as a robot uprising. And no doubt many viewers will simply watch it on that level.

But it is so well crafted - that is, the characters and situations are so well defined, unique, and memorable - that it's easy for us as viewers to identify with them and project our own interpretations on them. Anyone who wishes can dive deep and find many more layers beneath the simple robot uprising story.

The opposite of "well crafted" would be a story with boring, nebulous characters who are very similar and don't stand out much. Same with the situations. If they're boring and routine and shallow, there's not much for us as viewers to work with. But something like WestWorld has such depth, and such unique and individual characters, that many viewers will immediately begin to identify with it and want to know more about it.

I, for one, will admit that now I feel like a host as I start my loop each day, and had never looked at life in quite that way before. But good fiction does that: It makes you see the world in a different way. I didn't have the same reaction to, say, the last Hallmark Channel Christmas movie I saw (YMMV, of course)

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

Plus wouldn't they have to have walls up around the park to keep non-paying folks out and hosts in?

Or the park itself is on an island, as many of us think.

[dr pepper]

When i saw the phrase "mainland infiltration" i took that as figurative. I don't believe WW is literally on an island, not with the landscape it has. But it is isolated enough to use the term "mainland". I still think it's a real chunk of the West. Failing that, well maybe it's a space station.

[arc]

Lisa Joy did say that we'd find out something about the location of the park in ep 10, and the "mainland infiltration" clue is all we got, so...

[DavieBoar]

I stopped watching 2 episodes ago due to the Thandie Newton/Maeve storyline being so, so awful. I have since read all about the remaining 2 episodes but am unsure as to the outcome of the storyline. My main issues with it are obvious; the 2 guys helping her have absolutely no reason on earth to do so; either of them could have shut her down literally at any moment. Like when they increase her intelligence, they literally could have taken back the pad and either shut her down or taken her down to a zero instantly - it just makes no sense whatsoever. This coupled with the fact Thandie Newton is about as intimidating as a kitten. Not sure if it's the same writer as the rest? But it really is terrible, it doesn't make sense even in the context of a far flung sci-fi like this as there is just zero reason why they wouldn't have shut her down, at any point they wanted.

So after reading about the final 2 episodes, it seems that her actions were scripted, which makes slightly more sense but doesn't explain why they didn't just shut her down. Can I ask, is it Arnold who has scripted it? Also, I read it ends with her getting off the train but 'turning back' toward the elevator she came up to escape - does this mean she has in fact, been scripted to 'escape' right up to that point and then is programmed to go back to the park? If so I could forgive some of the senseless parts of the storyline but not all. If it turns out in fact that she is now in control and has escaped, then I will never watch any more of the show and will consider it one of the worst pieces of writing I have ever seen.

[Uncle JUICE]

Far be it from me to convince you, but here's the deal: the turning back to the park is, in fact, a free decision and not scripted programs inside her (as confirmed by the handheld camera following her out of the train, the showrunners recently said anything done steadicam is robot programming). It was programmed all the way up to the 'board the train' moment by Ford, not Arnold, because Bernard confirms her narrative had been changed by someone. Since Arnold's been dead for decades and Maeve's had at least one other storyline prior (the daughter storyline), then it makes sense to have that person be Ford. It wouldn't be the techs (good argument here, that there was no reason to help, she just happened to find the right human type in Felix), they aren't smart enough to bury the code that deep. So no, she didn't escape, no, that wasn't part of the programming. Every show isn't for everyone, though. 

[DavieBoar]

So you're saying she is 'free', as the scripting was supposed to end before she got on the train but didn't? Or she overwrites it? And that her turning back to return to the park was actually her free will? If so that is possibly even more ridiculous than I imagined.

I enjoyed everything in the series other than this stupid storyline. If there is someone solely responsible for it they should be fired as it takes away so much credibility of the entire show to have a storyline that makes no sense, in the way that one tiny action could, and should have nipped it in the bud before anything significant actually happened.

[Milburn Stone]

17 minutes ago, DavieBoar said:

So you're saying she is 'free', as the scripting was supposed to end before she got on the train but didn't? Or she overwrites it? And that her turning back to return to the park was actually her free will? If so that is possibly even more ridiculous than I imagined.

I agree it makes more sense, in terms of being consistent with the show's philosophy, if her turning back was also part of the storyline written for her by Ford.

From the beginning, the fascination of the show, for me, could be summarized not by "how remarkably like humans the robots are" but rather "how remarkably like robots we humans are." A human mother would probably be unable to abandon her child in the park, not because she was "good" (although we'd like to think that) but because her DNA prohibited it. So she is just as limited, her behavior just as circumscribed, as Maeve following Ford's storyline. The only difference is who (or what) is doing the limiting. But that is a trivial difference.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of the reality of this worldview, but the show does make a compelling argument for it.

The finale was robbed of a large degree of impact by the correct speculations early in the season on boards like this one. It's hard to go "OMG, William is the MiB?!???" or "OMG, Bernard is a robot Arnold?!??!?" when you've been reading that for weeks. With a show like this, so reliant on "surprises," the boards are a double-edged sword. (At least for those of us not clever enough to suss out the surprises for ourselves.)

[theatremouse]

On 12/5/2016 at 7:00 AM, numbnut said:

How does Logan riding naked on a horse convince his family that he's unstable?

My take on the naked horseriding thing was more like...William intends to torture Logan while they're in the park (hence the tied to the back of a horse walking prisoner style earlier). The naked-riding was just one more step of that. So it's not that telling of these exploits will convince his family he's unstable. I thought the point was to torment him until he actually were unstable.

On 12/5/2016 at 7:46 AM, Lamima said:

yeah, I think so. It was said there was a park incident in which a guest was harmed, early on. Do you dispute that? Or just that the incident led to changes in safety measures?

....

Or was the early incident that led to harm of human the Delores killing Arnold bit?

I'm a little messed up on timelines, but I interpreted the "incident" to have been Dolores killing Arnold (or rather, before we found that out, I assumed Arnold dying in park="incident"). But I'm not sure if anything we've seen concretely disproves that. I definitely think the point of Arnold's death, from Arnold's perspective was that it be an "incident" and thus prevent the opening of the park. But I don't think he meant it in a "convincing" way, I think he meant it in an "impossible to overcome PR nightmare" way. 

[DarkRaichu]

18 hours ago, arc said:

That last part, QA's hack, seems to be the part that is least up to Ford's control. If they'd used nearly any other host to use in the demonstration, Bernard could still have used that arbitrary host to threaten Ford, but who would have had enough of a connection that Maeve would go looking for them later?

I assumed Theresa just ordered for 1 random host from the park to use as example.  Since Ford controlled everything in the park, he could easily modify the order to specifically pick up Clementine from the Mariposa.

[RedHackle]

On 12/4/2016 at 11:30 PM, Pallas said:

A live mic caught him talking to himself in a bathroom, saying, "Killed them all..."

FTW. Perfection.

I have a couple of questions. One, it seemed that the Park's SWAT team didn't even attempt to fire a single shot at the Hosts, even though they knew the Hosts were attacking.  I started to wonder if they're Hosts also, or just (as someone up-thread noted) Storm Troopers.

And while I got most of the episode, including Delores' multiple time-lines, I didn't quite get how young William and Old MiB could be in the same scene last episode. I'll have to watch that one again to see if it makes sense.

Add me to the pile of people that decided that Ford was building a Ford model host before, and among the folks who don't want Elsie to be dead. She seems to be the most competent person on staff, so they should think about giving her a raise. Please, take Sizemore in her place.  I really hate that guy.

Finally, for the first time in that episode, and it may be purely my imagination, I saw such a strong resemblance between Ben Barnes (Logan) and Richard Benjamin (from the original Westworld movie, for you youngsters) that I had to run to IMDB to see if they might be kin.  Just thought it would be cool if they were related somehow. Oh well.

[gwhh]

I am very sure that the Arnold that died was a host.   And the human Arnold still alive and well.  He got a huge park to hide in! 

Just for a discussion: Maybe the REAL Arnold died a long time ago and a host took over!

Did anyone else notice Maeve left her bag on the train when she went back into westworld?  I wonder if she took the gun with her?

 

Some questions about the show:

http://www.cbr.com/westworld-15-burning-questions-after-season-one/

Edited December 7, 2016 by gwhh

[SoothingDave]

32 minutes ago, RedHackle said:

 

And while I got most of the episode, including Delores' multiple time-lines, I didn't quite get how young William and Old MiB could be in the same scene last episode. I'll have to watch that one again to see if it makes sense.

 

They weren't in the scene together.  When Dolores realizes the MiB is William she briefly flashes back to her memory of what "young William" looks like.

[luna1122]

1 hour ago, SoothingDave said:

They weren't in the scene together.  When Dolores realizes the MiB is William she briefly flashes back to her memory of what "young William" looks like.

And it broke my freaking heart.

Apparently, it also broke Jimmi Simpon's and Evan Rachel Wood's hearts as well.

http://www.etonline.com/news/204306_exclusive_jimmi_simpson_talks_beautiful_devastating_westworld_finale/

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/westworld-finale-dolores-twist-evan-rachel-wood-interview-season-two-953141

Edited December 7, 2016 by luna1122

[ennui]

23 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

He was probably getting himself worked up so he could sodomize Hector.  Just didn't have the time he thought he did.

I had a thought this morning. I've heard it said that the porn industry was one of the strongest forces in the development of the internet. Maybe the porn industry was also the primary force in the development of androids. "We don't want mechanical, we want flesh and blood!" Basically, the staff were using the androids as sex toys. 

I also considered that Felix had been using Maeve. If he was emotionally attached to her, it would explain his actions.  

[Kreniigh]

19 hours ago, Lingo said:

I don't think that's true. Aside from that last scene in the finale, I think all those scenes with Jeffrey Wright were her actual memories of Arnold. Well almost -- that scene from last week in which he reminds her she killed him must have been at least partly her imagination too. But I think most of the other scenes only work as memories. On the other hand, Ford insinuates at the end that the voice she hears in her head was her own -- rather than remote satellite transmissions, as previously suggested. But I don't think that entirely works either. It was a voice in her head that told her where to find the gun, after all.

Around the fifth episode there was a reference to a "bicameral system" that was used in the park years ago to transmit radio commands, which would be experienced as auditory hallucinations by hosts.  In Jaynes's real life theory, the voices experienced by the bicameral mind are not gods (as people once believed, according to Jaynes) or radio transmissions (as here), but the brain communicating to itself.  So whoever named this system in Westworld was being ironic.

The reference to The Creation of Adam contains the idea that, again, what is presumed to be 'God' is actually the brain talking to the self.  And at the end we get the reveal that at last some of Dolores's voices were not outside her, but her own mind.  So the radio system is the surface meaning of the painting, while the reality at Dolores's awakening is the 'brain' interpretation.

So, is the 'bicameral' radio system just a red herring?  A convenient way to explain the basic concept?  Is it even used in the plot at all?

[Gobi]

On 12/4/2016 at 11:04 PM, benteen said:

So if we get Samurai World next year, does Hollywood avoid casting Matt Damon as one of them this year? ;)

 

No, no, no. Matt Damon commands Chinese warriors. Japanese warriors are commanded by Tom Cruise.

 

On 12/5/2016 at 1:29 AM, Accidental Martyr said:

That's a great point.

I think Ford knew, and to an extent planned,  that Dolores would encounter TMIB in the old/new town. As he told TMIB, "Far be it from me to interfere with a journey of self-discovery."

[arc]

1 hour ago, Kreniigh said:

Around the fifth episode there was a reference to a "bicameral system" that was used in the park years ago to transmit radio commands, which would be experienced as auditory hallucinations by hosts.  In Jaynes's real life theory, the voices experienced by the bicameral mind are not gods (as people once believed, according to Jaynes) or radio transmissions (as here), but the brain communicating to itself.  So whoever named this system in Westworld was being ironic.

The reference to The Creation of Adam contains the idea that, again, what is presumed to be 'God' is actually the brain talking to the self.  And at the end we get the reveal that at last some of Dolores's voices were not outside her, but her own mind.  So the radio system is the surface meaning of the painting, while the reality at Dolores's awakening is the 'brain' interpretation.

So, is the 'bicameral' radio system just a red herring?  A convenient way to explain the basic concept?  Is it even used in the plot at all?

Also Ford explained to Bernard that Arnold's theory for creating/bootstrapping host consciousness was based on Jaynes's bicameral mind theory in an earlier episode, so presumably they named the broadcast system after that, possibly even with an eye towards booting up consciousness with Arnold's or Ford's voice in their heads.

It was used in the plot - Theresa or a co-conspirator in QA used the broadcast system to hack the stray. Elsie also found that the broadcast system had been used by someone else for other purposes, and I think we can assume now that was Ford.

[Gobi]

5 hours ago, RedHackle said:

 

I have a couple of questions. One, it seemed that the Park's SWAT team didn't even attempt to fire a single shot at the Hosts, even though they knew the Hosts were attacking.  I started to wonder if they're Hosts also, or just (as someone up-thread noted) Storm Troopers.

 

I wonder...We know that Ford could control the safety controls in the park, and we know that the guns in the park could be controlled, as well. Was Ford able to program the security team's guns not to work? And, for this to work, Maeve, and probably Hector and Armistice were able to override that command.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Gobi
Spelling

[arc]

10 hours ago, DavieBoar said:

I stopped watching 2 episodes ago due to the Thandie Newton/Maeve storyline being so, so awful. I have since read all about the remaining 2 episodes but am unsure as to the outcome of the storyline. My main issues with it are obvious; the 2 guys helping her have absolutely no reason on earth to do so; either of them could have shut her down literally at any moment. Like when they increase her intelligence, they literally could have taken back the pad and either shut her down or taken her down to a zero instantly - it just makes no sense whatsoever. This coupled with the fact Thandie Newton is about as intimidating as a kitten. Not sure if it's the same writer as the rest? But it really is terrible, it doesn't make sense even in the context of a far flung sci-fi like this as there is just zero reason why they wouldn't have shut her down, at any point they wanted.

Seems to me like shutting Maeve down when she's already shown them she can wake up on her own is not a great idea.

[Chicago Redshirt]

They could remove whatever makes her able to wake up on her own. They could tie her down. They could lobotomize her. They could presumably come up with a half-dozen other solutions from rolling her back to not fixing her body entirely, or hell, just putting "her" back to a head. 

The exact details of how they could turn on Maeve aren't super important, particularly when Sylvester and Felix didn't even try. That they didn't try when threatened to take actions that in a best case scenario would mean they'd lose their jobs and in a worst case would mean that they'd be killed by Maeve or by Westworld security does not make sense if they had half a brain and a say in the matter. 

Really, the main plausible explanation is that both are hosts, programmed to let Maeve get ready to escape.

[jeansheridan]

On 12/6/2016 at 9:42 AM, that one guy said:

So all those conversations with Jeffrey Wright in the remote diagnostic facility throughout the season weren't memories of Arnold or Bernard (or most of them weren't, anyway), they were with the other voice in Dolores' head, the other half of the bicameral mind, and then when she becomes aware, "Arnold" turns

I think some of it was really happening with Arnold.  Reading Alice in Wonderland for example.  But it does explain seeing herself as the fortune teller.  She was almost there.  

[dgpolo]

I don't think Felix, and probably Sylvester too, needed to be -programmed- to help Maeve, Ford could've just told them to do it and maybe even sweetened the deal with promises of money and/or promotions.

I agree with whoever upthread said that not all of the robots are conscious, I think only Dolores and maybe Maeve and even more maybe Peter Abernathy (that pic is still bothering me, why could he see it, why did it bother him so much, for half a sec I thought he must have Logan's memories somehow, but I can't see how)

It's odd that William/MiB actually found the center of the maze in Dolores, and promptly attacked her and didn't believe it. In a way he hasn't achieved consciousness, it's like as Dolores became more self aware he became less, with a one track mind trying to find a maze that wasn't for him at all costs. (and I did like that he was dragging Logan behind his horse as Young William, just the way he dragged Lawrence.)

The big thing I am not understanding is--What storyline are the board members watching exactly? I mean it can't be the one where MiB stabs her can it? which parts of which storylines were included in that film? the Wyatt massacre? where did it start? why did she go wandering if we leave out William.

[Honey]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They could remove whatever makes her able to wake up on her own. They could tie her down. They could lobotomize her. They could presumably come up with a half-dozen other solutions from rolling her back to not fixing her body entirely, or hell, just putting "her" back to a head. 

The exact details of how they could turn on Maeve aren't super important, particularly when Sylvester and Felix didn't even try. That they didn't try when threatened to take actions that in a best case scenario would mean they'd lose their jobs and in a worst case would mean that they'd be killed by Maeve or by Westworld security does not make sense if they had half a brain and a say in the matter. 

Really, the main plausible explanation is that both are hosts, programmed to let Maeve get ready to escape.

Or she arranged for proof of their misdeeds to be delivered to upper management in the event she didn't wake up, and she advised them of this.

[Netfoot]

57 minutes ago, Honey said:

Or she arranged for proof of their misdeeds to be delivered to upper management in the event she didn't wake up, and she advised them of this.

Or they are really aliens from a race who have decided not to fight humans for the planet, but to get the hosts to kill us off for them.  

[DavieBoar]

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They could remove whatever makes her able to wake up on her own. They could tie her down. They could lobotomize her. They could presumably come up with a half-dozen other solutions from rolling her back to not fixing her body entirely, or hell, just putting "her" back to a head. 

The exact details of how they could turn on Maeve aren't super important, particularly when Sylvester and Felix didn't even try. That they didn't try when threatened to take actions that in a best case scenario would mean they'd lose their jobs and in a worst case would mean that they'd be killed by Maeve or by Westworld security does not make sense if they had half a brain and a say in the matter. 

Really, the main plausible explanation is that both are hosts, programmed to let Maeve get ready to escape.

Exactly correct. If it turned out the 2 techs were hosts, programmed to follow Maeves orders would be the only way the whole storyline isn't utterly ridiculous in every single way. As it stands the storyline has ruined the entire series for me, it's just too stupid. Like you say, there are literally hundreds of things they could have done and absolutely no reason they would have followed her orders for even a second, or been threatened by her at all. It's an insult to the viewer. She couldn't report them to their bosses at all when they could simply have shut her down. It's a shame as without this abomination of a storyline, the series would have been great, with it there it's pretty bad.

[Honey]

8 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Or they are really aliens from a race who have decided not to fight humans for the planet, but to get the hosts to kill us off for them.  

That would be a little strange.

[Honey]

9 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Or they are really aliens from a race who have decided not to fight humans for the planet, but to get the hosts to kill us off for them.  

Or it could be as simple as, people would ask where she was, and why they didn't do their job.