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S04.E08: Dr. Adrian Shaw: Conclusion

MostlyC

By MostlyC
in The Blacklist

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MostlyC

MostlyC

 

Red needs Dr. Shaw to locate a former patient; Liz considers her relationship to an increasingly unpredictable Alexander Kirt (aka Alexander Kirk); Mr. Kaplan comes to a realization about her future.

Tagged as a spoiler because I'm positing this episode topic early.  Read at your own risk.

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willco

willco

Maybe someone should define 'conclusion' to the writers, because I don't think that concluded anything ! Ah, mystery, I suppose is what they are going for. Besides the whispering, Red didn't look like he was suffering any ill effects from all the drugs. I'm guessing that the secret is Kirk's wife didn't kill herself after all. And maybe that wasn't Red either, maybe a look alike ? Far fetched, but the Blacklist has done stuff like this before.

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Khat

Khat

When Kirk had Red, why not obtain a sample of his DNA and conduct a rapid comparison with Lizzie's DNA, which he already had?

Well, that would make it unnecessary for the writers to draw out the 'drama', of course, and still manage to leave the question open-ended. Honestly, I want to see that DNA test too, before I'll be 100% sure he wasn't just playing along.

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ottoDbusdriver

ottoDbusdriver

Well, that was a complete waste of time.  And for good measure, it was pretty boring.

Lizzie's kidnapped .... again.

Considering the Dr. Adrian Shaw was the Blacklister of the week (make that 2 weeks), she was barely in the episode.

Red says to Kirk that he's Lizzie's father -- only he was only telling Kirk what he wanted to hear, so they are going to fucking continue to drag out the Lizzie daddy mystery.  FFS !

But then after demonstrating that he has a workable cure for Kirk, Kirk plans to kill Red anyway until Red whispers something in his ear -- and Kirk takes off with Red before Lizzie, Ressler and Navabi show up.

Oh nooooes, what did Red whisper to Kirk ?  Something like "If they had better writers this show wouldn't suck so bad".

Even the stuff with Mr. Kaplan was kind of dull -- at least she's up on her feet and on her way back to civilization.  So there's that.

Still no sign of Tom and Lizzie's dogs.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

 

5 hours ago, buttersister said:

Got it. Red "died" previously. And he told Lizzie that her father died. And as much as I love watching Spader, c'mon writers.

The "good man who was (her) father was destroyed", of course.  So Red was telling the truth, from a certain point of view.  How very Star Wars of them.

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Johnny Dollar

Johnny Dollar

It's obvious what Red whispered to Kirk: "Kirk. I am your father."

Actually, the whispering was from James Spader to Ulrich Thomsen: "Can you believe they pay me a million bucks an episode to spout this garbage.  It may not be Banshee money, but still."

Kudos to Mr. Kaplan's ability to heal from a gunshot to the head with literally no professional medical intervention. It's gotta be the soup. 

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gazebo

gazebo

I think the reason why Kirk did not kill Red is because Red told him that Katerina is still alive and he knows where to find her.  Kirk finds out,  releases Red and takes the "Crisper" cure. Kirk takes Dr. Adrian Shaw with him.  We might or might not see Kirk any more in the future.

All those big freakin' hypodermic needles going into Red's neck made me gag with disgust.

The two enemies sitting at the same table, both about to die and sharing bittersweet memories about the beautiful Russian spy they both fell in love with was very poignant and absolutely illustrates how they are still in love with her even years later.   I hope we get to finally meet Katarina Rostova in future episodes one day.  I want to see if she is indeed all that.

I still don't know if indeed that Red is Lizzie's father, but Red seems to think so.  He looks like a proud grandpa holding baby Agnes in his arms.  Lizzie seems to have forgiven him and even embraced him.  Seemed a great day in Reddington's world.

So the creepy hermit in the forrest actually became a friend to Mr. Kaplan.  He decided to set her free instead of forcibly making her stay with him.  I really didn't see that coming at all!  I like the oddly domestic scene of Mr. Kaplan making stew on the stove and then having a nice meal with the hermit at the table where she tells him her story.  When she finally left the hermit, I think the hermit was cool with that.  I think Mr. Kaplan is going to come back as Red's biggest enemy next year.  I can't wait to see Red's comeuppance!

This wasn't a great season.  Alot of episodes I found were too lacking or unbelievable and I hated what Red did to Mr. Kaplan.  But I think this episode was really good and I was very satisfied with how everything ended.

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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

Red said that Katarina was sent to seduce many men, not only Kirk and himself.  Perhaps she became pregnant from one of the other men, but kept the baby because she didn't want to/couldn't abort it, and because it would keep Kirk even closer to her if he thought they had a child together.

At what point did Katarina need to provide Kirk with false DNA evidence demonstrating that Masha was his child?  Did he doubt Masha's paternity because he knew she was sleeping with Red?  It sounds like he knew their relationship wasn't good some time before Red took Masha.

I don't know what Red whispered in Kirk's ear, or why he had to whisper it since no one else was there except to keep the mystery going, but since Red has memories of Katarina walking into the ocean I hope that it's not that she is still alive.  What if the secret that gave Kirk the will to live (with Red still in the world) was that when Katarina left him, she was actually pregnant with a second child, who was Kirk's, and that that child is out there somewhere?  Completely farfetched, but that would get him moving quickly.  Red would have had to have given him some message that could only have come from Katarina to make him believe it, though.

I still don't think that Red is Lizzie's father.  Maybe Katarina asked him to take care of Lizzie if she died, so in his mind he was her father, although he gave credit for that to her adoptive dad.

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morgankobi

morgankobi

1 hour ago, gazebo said:

I still don't know if indeed that Red is Lizzie's father, but Red seems to think so.  He looks like a proud grandpa holding baby Agnes in his arms.  Lizzie seems to have forgiven him and even embraced him.  Seemed a great day in Reddington's world.

 

I think this describes the second half of every other episode. 

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saber5055

saber5055

It's been such a crummy couple of sleepless days that this show couldn't keep me awake and I missed the ending. Reading here, do I assume: 1. Someone gave Mr. Kaplan a ride out of the woods? 2. Red and Kirk part ways, Kirk to leave with the genome doctor and Red to return to Lizzie's place? 3. All while Kirk's girlfriend is still swimming underwater to ... somewhere? I do know that babies lose body heat through their heads (as do adults) so nearly always wear a head cap to keep everything warm.

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MrSmith

MrSmith

My wife and I haven't gotten a chance to watch this episode, yet. That said, I'm getting to the point where I don't want to watch anymore. I am so tired of all this bullshit with Liz, Alexander Kirk, Red, and the (now completely mundane and uninteresting) mystery of who is Liz's father. I'm also sick of Liz having a baby. Kill her kid in a car accident or something so we can stop listening to her whine about her baby. Even better, have some Blacklister kill the kid, sending Tom off down a dark path of revenge and trying to track down who hired the Blacklister that killed their kid. And have that dark path cause the end of Tom's relationship with Liz. That way, we can get back to the interesting stuff and stop dicking around with this boring shit. The alternative is they keep dragging this crap out and I don't return to watching this show after the winter hiatus.

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gazebo

gazebo

Mr. Kaplan was just calmly  walking on the road when this vehicle stopped and she got in just like that.  There was no "Where would you like to go, ma'am?".  She just simply climbed in and the vehicle took off.  I think Mr. Kaplan found a way to get in touch with someone who was willing to take her in and probably hide her from Red.

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

So, now Red is actually Lizzie's father after-all?  Well, that is what they are selling now.  At this point, I've given up every hoping they will give us a full answer.  I can see them somehow springing another twist after all of this is said and done.  I also think Katerina is actually still alive as well, and that is what Red whispered to Kirk, that made him spare his life.  Sigh....

Kaplan has now been set free, and I guess is going back to do something.  Go after Red?  Try to get back on his side?  Help Lizzie?  Work for Kirk? I don't know.  I was wondering if the person picking her up was secretly Dembe.

I got nothing else, really.  This has been a slow start for this season.  I'm actually missing last season's "Lizzie is a Russian spy on the run", because there at least was some entertainment value and suspense to be had.

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saber5055

saber5055

Thanks for the catch up gazebo. My first thought is the driver is Dembe. Red did say to forgive him for Kate, so that would be Dembe's way of "forgiving" Red. Dembe gets to keep her and Kate gets to (safely) make soup for Dembe. Win win. As for Red being Lizzie's father as he confessed, I say that's as real as Lizzie being dead last season. While I was bummed Lizzie wasn't really dead, I could give a care who her father is. Get over it already, for pete's sake.

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Dowel Jones

Dowel Jones

I thought that the driver might be Mountain Man, after he noticed that she had left.  That would explain why she got in the truck without hesitation, but it doesn't explain how he's been hiding out in the mountains with a newer looking pickup truck.

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

3. All while Kirk's girlfriend is still swimming underwater to ... somewhere?

Probably the other side of the boat, as efficient as the FBI has been.

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Khat

Khat

It's been such a crummy couple of sleepless days that this show couldn't keep me awake and I missed the ending. Reading here, do I assume: 1. Someone gave Mr. Kaplan a ride out of the woods? 2. Red and Kirk part ways, Kirk to leave with the genome doctor and Red to return to Lizzie's place? 3. All while Kirk's girlfriend is still swimming underwater to ... somewhere? I do know that babies lose body heat through their heads (as do adults) so nearly always wear a head cap to keep everything warm.

That's actually not entirely true. The study that they did that prompted the '50% body heat from your head' myth was done with volunteers that were wearing full outfits 'except' for hats, so of course that was where they were losing the most body heat. You don't lose a significantly larger amount from your head if it's uncovered than you do from any other part of your body that may be uncovered.

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saber5055

saber5055

Babies need to be kept warmer than big old fat adults, they just don't have the body mass. Hence, the cap thing. Does Mr. Kaplan have anywhere to walk to? We know nothing of where she lived, she just always magically appeared when Red needed a "cleaning." Maybe Mountain Man is some long lost relative of Kirk's ... maybe he's Lizzie's dad!

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anarchyangel84

anarchyangel84

I'm clearly in the minority here- but I still enjoy this show. It's not my favorite & it's not perfect by any means. 

When Kirk's wife jumped, that water didn't look too deep so I thought she died. If Ressler and Samar didn't see her floating, they probably would've said something. BUT we didn't see her dead so you never know. I hope she's dead for many reasons but  mostly because I'm tired of her character. 

I'm glad squatter guy let Kaplan go. I was very confused to see her making dinner. I was hoping she wasn't gonna stay around there but then I wasn't sure if she had anywhere else to go. I thought it was squatter guy who picked her up. I really don't know how she'd get in touch with anyone else- I doubt that guy had a phone since he barely had a roof. But then again, who knows! Red seemed a little regretful before about Kaplan. I said before that I didn't feel like he really wanted to shoot her in the first place since he missed. I've never seen him miss. When he asked Dembe to forgive him, I wondered if he would really be that relentless in finding her and finishing  the job. 

The biggest thing I've disliked about this show is that they've continually mindscrewed us with this whole paternity thing. I'm inclined to believe Red this time. Why would he lie to Kirk about being her father? If anything, you'd think Red would tell Kirk he's not Lizzie's father whether he really is or not. I do wonder why he's still keeping it from Liz. I know it's partly because he doesn't want his enemies to find out. But I wonder if it has anything to do with Liz's memories the night of the fire. The man who is supposedly Liz's father was yelling at Katarina. (Can't if he wouldn't let her go or what.) Liz then shoots that man. Was that Red? Or was that another guy who was nothing to Liz. We know Red was there- he has the burns. I just don't know what he was doing there or where he was in the house. 

Of course now we have another mystery that will probably take another couple seasons to figure out. What did Red tell him?? What would have been big enough to stop Kirk from killing Red? Someone said that Red told Kirk that Katarina is alive. Maybe. I don't know though. Red didn't want him around Liz- I don't know if he'd give Katarina up like that since Red knows Kirk would search for her until he found her. But again, I don't know. I could be wrong.

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Khat

Khat

1 hour ago, anarchyangel84 said:

I'm clearly in the minority here- but I still enjoy this show. It's not my favorite & it's not perfect by any means. 

When Kirk's wife jumped, that water didn't look too deep so I thought she died. If Ressler and Samar didn't see her floating, they probably would've said something. BUT we didn't see her dead so you never know. I hope she's dead for many reasons but  mostly because I'm tired of her character.

The biggest thing I've disliked about this show is that they've continually mindscrewed us with this whole paternity thing. I'm inclined to believe Red this time. Why would he lie to Kirk about being her father? If anything, you'd think Red would tell Kirk he's not Lizzie's father whether he really is or not. I do wonder why he's still keeping it from Liz. I know it's partly because he doesn't want his enemies to find out. But I wonder if it has anything to do with Liz's memories the night of the fire. The man who is supposedly Liz's father was yelling at Katarina. (Can't if he wouldn't let her go or what.) Liz then shoots that man. Was that Red? Or was that another guy who was nothing to Liz. We know Red was there- he has the burns. I just don't know what he was doing there or where he was in the house. 

Of course now we have another mystery that will probably take another couple seasons to figure out. What did Red tell him?? What would have been big enough to stop Kirk from killing Red? Someone said that Red told Kirk that Katarina is alive. Maybe. I don't know though. Red didn't want him around Liz- I don't know if he'd give Katarina up like that since Red knows Kirk would search for her until he found her. But again, I don't know. I could be wrong.

I still like it.  Could be because I only started watching before this season, and binged all the previous series, so I didn't have to wait so long for all the silly plot twists, or, could also be my apparently bad taste in shows.  (Seriously, Blood Ties, Almost Human, Unforgettable, MacGyver (the new one)  Apparently nobody likes the ones I do, and we won't get started on the 'bad' movies that I adore.)  It's probably mostly Spader, though.

I think Red told Kirk that because it was what he wanted him to say, personally.  Kirk didn't seem to be in a mindset to have believed him if he said 'no'. And I'm not really in the Lizzington fanset, but something about Red actually being her father just strikes me as off, for some reason.  It's too easy to explain away his obsession then.  At the least, it would be a lazy cop-out, imo.  But, with these writers', it's not entirely off the table, either. 

Oh, I know.  Her real father was some ordinary Joe who lived down the street, had absolutely nothing to do with anybody, but had a wild fling with Katarina, and already has a family of his own.  Red's taking the blame to protect them.  That might actually make a somewhat interesting twist.  (That was a joke, btw.)

I figure Katarina, if she is alive, would be a lot more capable of protecting herself then Dipswitch, there, (I would hope) and sending Kirk off to chase her would get him out of Red's way (and distracted from cutting his throat), at least.

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Princess Lucky

Princess Lucky

I think Red was telling the truth, as he "always" has (he's Liz's father, except Liz's father is "dead" because that was in another lifetime and that "man" is dead now because he's turned into Red blah blah blah)

What I don't get is why the writers are afraid of revealing (unequivocally, because there have been several "reveals") the secret of Liz's paternity. It's not a series-ending mystery. It's not like, say, The Mentalist, where finding Red John was everything to the main character (and even on that show, with that dumb reveal that was a couple of seasons too late, the reveal didn't immediately signal the end). Knowing why Red loves Liz so much is important, but I can't imagine why it should be such a mystery. At the start of the show, when they barely knew each other, and Red had to win Liz over, sure, it was fun to speculate. But now that they've actually formed an emotional bond, regardless of the "answer", why not reveal it?

If Liz found out that Red is her father for sure, she'd probably hug him (before kicking him out in the next episode, and then hugging him in the episode after that). But we'd get a nice, lovely moment of belonging and family and actual Grandpa Red (like the glimpse we got in this episode).

If Liz found out he's not her father (with absolute certainty), that would change nothing. He's still Red, he still loves her, she still cares about him.

The show can go on after that reveal, easily. There are plot-related excuses to keep the answer a secret, but dramatically I see no reason.

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Khat

Khat

Agnes was wearing a cap to hide the fact that the baby has a full head of hair and is two years old. That was some big baby for being just a few months, if not only weeks, old. 

Trust me, that's NOT a 2 year old. A child that age would be walking around on their own. I doubt she's even over a year.
But that brings up a point I've wondered about before. The time jumps in this show are very badly handled (I thought Lizzie's run with Red might have happened over a couple weeks, or maybe a month, for instance, but at the end she says, as a throwaway line, that they were on the run for three, if I remember correctly.) They don't break where they should (like at the end of a season) and there's usually no indications of the correct time passage. We assume it's been four years because there's four seasons, but it could have been three, or five, or, heck, ten.
With that in mind, just how old is Agnes supposed to be, now? How long was it, actually, between her birth and Lizzie's discovery, and how long did Kirk have her? There has been no real indication. For all we know, she could be 7 or 8 months, or even a year, old now. She can hold her head up on her own, so she has to be at least around 3 months. Of course, I suppose it's just another annoying plothole in a sea of them, but still, some indication would be nice. No one's even mentioned it.
And the hair thing's not really a factor either. Some babies are born with 'a full head of hair'.

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saber5055

saber5055

LOL at Agnes really being two years old. As I posted back when, I'm waiting for this show to do the soap-opera standard time-warp jump and Agnes will be 16 years old after the hiatus. You know ... because these cr*p writers can do that.

Besides, we've seen Kate recover fully from being shot in the face. Enough to get out of bed, made/eat dinner and then take a walk in the woods. Agnes will be old enough to join her next season.

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TigerLynx

TigerLynx

Good Lord this people are dumb.  I thought the people on The Walking Dead were to stupid to live, but they have nothing on these morons.

Red to Liz, "Why are you still at the hospital?"

Me, "Because these people want to die.  Do us all a favor and let them."

Any chance Mr. Kaplan and Dembe will team up to take all these idiots out?

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Dowel Jones

Dowel Jones

50 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Agnes will be 16 years old after the hiatus. You know ...

And she will spend the entirety of every episode asking "Are you my Daddy?"  No one will have the courage to tell her that he left for the spinoff.

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tanita

tanita

Honestly, if we didn't know that Red was an intelligence officer from like 20 or so years ago and the fact that we have seen how Katarina looks like - I would have thought their were going for the Red is really Katarina aka. her mother twist - after the most epic sex change operation ever. I know it's dumb as hell theory, but this show has been milking this particular plotline for 70+ episodes. Frankly, if we don't get an utterly epic conclusion I shall be pissed.

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saber5055

saber5055

Tanita, you have come up with the most dramatic twist yet, Red is Lizzie's father AND mother! Just because we've been told Red was an intelligence officer 20 years ago doesn't mean writers will remember that down the road. Just like they had Red and Tom talking as strangers outside the hospital after Red killed Lizzie's adoptive dad.

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paigow

paigow

55 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Tanita, you have come up with the most dramatic twist yet, Red is Lizzie's father AND mother! 

And her brother....Red is actually Jamie Lannister....

Dembe: Forget it Tom, this is Westeros....

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morgankobi

morgankobi

My first instinct was that it was the mountain man who picked-up Mr. Kaplan because there was no reason for anyone else to stop. She was dressed in a large, flannel coat, walking along with a walking stick-just like many people who live near woods do. I didn't see any reason for anyone to think they needed to pull over for her.

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tanita

tanita

11 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Tanita, you have come up with the most dramatic twist yet, Red is Lizzie's father AND mother! Just because we've been told Red was an intelligence officer 20 years ago doesn't mean writers will remember that down the road. Just like they had Red and Tom talking as strangers outside the hospital after Red killed Lizzie's adoptive dad.

I mean, did you see all that meaningful eye contact between Red and Kirk. I was expecting any second for Red to drop " I am Katarina" - maybe that was what Red whispered ;) . And he did say that Liz is his daughter, not that he was her father. Frankly, it's just irritating me to no end. To much unnecessary mystery.

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anarchyangel84

anarchyangel84

On 11/12/2016 at 0:51 AM, Khat said:

I still like it.  Could be because I only started watching before this season, and binged all the previous series, so I didn't have to wait so long for all the silly plot twists, or, could also be my apparently bad taste in shows.  (Seriously, Blood Ties, Almost Human, Unforgettable, MacGyver (the new one)  Apparently nobody likes the ones I do, and we won't get started on the 'bad' movies that I adore.)  It's probably mostly Spader, though.

I think Red told Kirk that because it was what he wanted him to say, personally.  Kirk didn't seem to be in a mindset to have believed him if he said 'no'. And I'm not really in the Lizzington fanset, but something about Red actually being her father just strikes me as off, for some reason.  It's too easy to explain away his obsession then.  At the least, it would be a lazy cop-out, imo.  But, with these writers', it's not entirely off the table, either. 

Oh, I know.  Her real father was some ordinary Joe who lived down the street, had absolutely nothing to do with anybody, but had a wild fling with Katarina, and already has a family of his own.  Red's taking the blame to protect them.  That might actually make a somewhat interesting twist.  (That was a joke, btw.)

I figure Katarina, if she is alive, would be a lot more capable of protecting herself then Dipswitch, there, (I would hope) and sending Kirk off to chase her would get him out of Red's way (and distracted from cutting his throat), at least.

I really like Spader. Once I invest time in a show (like 2 seasons or more), I tend to stay with it no matter what. I do have my limits...I'm just not sure what they are yet. I still watch Supernatural for goodness sakes and that turned into a train wreck! You just reminded me that I wanted to check out the new MacGyver too. I was seen a few episodes of the old one but I was kinda young when it was on.

A lot of ppl seem to think Red just told Kirk that to shut him up. It's a possibility. I guess I was just hoping that this whole paternity thing had FINALLY been figured out. Wishful thinking! I can say with certainty that he was there during the fire that night, I just don't know why!! The way he looks at Liz sometimes and the way he looked at Agnes, it seems like a proud Papa look. More wishful thinking??

I like your theory about some ordinary joe being her Dad. She seemed to like these guys with names like Raymond & Constantine. So if a new guy comes into the picture with dark hair & a name like Alastair or Maximus, he may be it! 

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Ottis

Ottis

I don't have the energy to post about this show anymore. Lizzie, zzzzzzzzz. Her dad, zzzzzzzzzz. Agnes, zzzzzzzzzzz. Let's see some threats to society and Red's genius, plus his awkward Tom/FBI partnership, used to stop them, please. THAT was a decent show. Create any larger mythology you want. Just. Move. On.

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