S05.E05: Human Target

[statsgirl]

From the ratings thread:

16 hours ago, quarks said:

They started doing press for tonight's episode last summer - mentioning it as an Olicity episode and whatever, and they did some press releases about Human Target coming in a couple of months ago.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how they could possibly thin to promote this as an Olicity episode.  Even Brian Ford Sullivan was teasing it this afternoon.

For me, it was a huge anti-Olicity episode (You're tuning in to see Oliver and Felicity's relationship?  Hope you enjoy seeing her in bed with another guy and then they have the talk about both moving on!)

Are people who like Olicity really going to tune in for the next sweeps episode?  They sure have a lot of faith in the fanbase.

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ok I just watched that last scene. Was bizarre!

For me, it was incredibly bad plotting/writing as they broke them up and still tried to tell everyone that Oliver and Felicity care so much about each other, they will get together in the end, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.  Trying to have their cake and eat it too.  Just made me want to throw up.

[Ophanim]

23 minutes ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Rene is shirtless when he was being beaten to a pulp, Diggle takes his shirt off for no reason at all, and even Felicity is basically shirtless -- albeit facing away from the camera -- in her scene with Billy Malone. It's a good day for fans of torsos.

True dat :D

[KirkB]

See, now I need to start using "It's a good day for fans of torsos" in more sentences. :)

[tv echo]

So it went pretty much as I expected (that is to say, badly)...

Oliver & Felicity gave each other the blessing to date other people. Felicity is still dating Malone. Susan Williams gave 'Oliver' (Christopher Chance) her personal cell number, which Chance passed on to Oliver and then encouraged Oliver to move on and call her. 

Rene was rescued and felt guilty because he told Tobias Church under torture that Oliver was the Green Arrow.  Diggle and Rene had several heart-to-heart talks, and Diggle encouraged Rene to work out his redemption like him, by donning a mask and fighting with the team.

Chance posing as Oliver was shot and Oliver's fake death was announced to the public, in order to find out Church's scheme. Church was defeated and captured, and he told Oliver that Prometheus is coming. Oliver's being alive was then publicly announced. Church was killed by Prometheus while being transported, but not before Church told Prometheus that Oliver is the Green Arrow.

Susan met with a CI, who gave her a photo of flashback Oliver with some Bratva guys in Russia from five years ago, when Oliver was supposedly still on the island.

Oh, in one of the flashbacks scenes, Oliver's sitting in a bar with Anatoly and eyed a blonde woman sitting at the end of the bar. It totally looked like Oliver was going to hit on her (wonder where his Laurel pic was stored).

IMO, once again, Felicity was thrown under the bus to serve the plot and to prop up Oliver.

Here are the two key Olicity conversations from 505 (videos courtesy of Arrow)...

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Thanks for the recap.

[ElleMo]

I have some issues with the Human Target plotline. What was the purpose?  Does he have a super power that makes him impervious to bullets?  Because that is the only reason I can see switching Oliver with him.  Otherwise, why couldn't Oliver just wear kevlar?  And while Oliver may have been safe,  Thea was walking around right next to the target;  she was not safe and could have been killed if the shooter chose to hit her. Nice way to watch out for your sister, Oliver. 

Very polite of the shooter to just wound the bodyguards and not kill them like most assassins would. 

[ladylaw99]

How is it possible that this show has made me not even care who Promethus is?  I am not even curious.  

[tv echo]

And here's Olicity-relevant dialogue from 505...

(Felicity and Malone are putting their clothes back on in Felicity's bedroom at the loft.)
Billy: "That was a bit more than I expected to get done on my lunch break. Is this a normal Wednesday afternoon for you?"
Felicity: "Well, I had to make up for last night. I hate canceling last minute."
Billy: "I got a feeling I'm gonna be the one canceling on you for a change. I got a promotion. I signed on with the ACU."
Felicity: "Oliver's anti-crime unit."
Billy: "This isn't gonna be weird, right?"
Felicity: "Hmm?"
Billy: "Me reporting to your ex-fiance."
Felicity: "Yeah. What could possibly we weird about that?"
Billy: "Felicity?"
Felicity: "Mm-hmm?"
Billy: "Does Mayor Queen know that we're seeing each other?"
Felicity: "It really doesn't help if you call him Mayor Queen."
Billy: "Felicity?"
Felicity: "Definitely. Yeah. He's definitely - definitely aware of you."

(Christopher Chance posing as Oliver is meeting with Susan Williams.)
Oliver/Chance: "You give me one month with no attacks. Let me show you what I can do, and if I don't deliver... It's open season."
Susan: "One month." (Scribbles something on her business card and hands the card to him)
Oliver/Chance: "What's this?"
Susan: "My personal cell."
Oliver/Chance: "Why would I need that?"
Susan: "I think you can figure it out."

(Chance tells Oliver about Felicity's boyfriend.)
Oliver: "So thanks for doing this."
Chance: "Being killed is basically my job."
Oliver: "But, uh, not just for taking the bullets. I - I heard that you got Kullens to cave."
Chance: "Yeah, and scored you a very pretty girl's phone number."
Oliver: "I - I heard that, too."
Chance: "No, but the truth is you did that."
Oliver: "I was under the impression that I've been down here all day."
Chance: "I don't just put on faces, Oliver. I become my target, and to do that, I've got to learn everything there is to know about them, more than they know about themselves. I've got to become them."
Oliver: "My apologies."
Chance: "What for? Man, you got a great life. Heh. You're the mayor... But you'd still rather be the hood than Oliver Queen."
Oliver: "Oliver Queen has - has never really been my better half."
Chance: "Nobody moves forward in life when they're hiding behind a mask. Trust me. You know, it's why you're struggling as mayor, and it's probably why you won't call that girl."
Oliver: "That's not the reason."
Chance: "Listen. I'm the last person to give dating advice, but Felicity has moved on. You should too. You didn't know. Sorry. Uh, earlier today, I met with a detective who just joined the ACU, uh, Billy Malone. He casually mentioned that he was seeing Felicity, seemed to think that you knew."

(Felicity is standing on the balcony at night, when Oliver literally drops down.)
Oliver: "Hey."
Felicity: "Hi."
Oliver: "Um, thanks for letting me swing by. I know it's - it's late."
Felicity: "You do remember that this apartment has a front door, right?"
Oliver: "Well, front doors are more for people who haven't just faked their own death."
Felicity: "Good point. So what's up? Your message sounded cryptic."
Oliver: "Sorry. I - I wasn't sure if I should say anything at all actually."
Felicity: "That couldn't wait till tomorrow?"
Oliver: "Why didn't you tell me that you were seeing someone?"
Felicity: "Well... maybe on some crazy subconscious level, I was worried you'd show up on my balcony in the middle of the night. Sorry. Snark probably isn't appropriate to hear."
Oliver: "I'm totally fine that you're seeing someone. But I'm hurt that you didn't tell me."
Felicity: "I'm sorry. I - I meant to, and then every time I went to go bring it up, I just sort of, like - I just chickened out."
Oliver: "Why? Were you - were you - were you keeping the door open for us, or -"
Felicity (quickly): "No. Of course not. No. We're  - you and I work together, and I just - I didn't want to make it a thing, you know, until it was something - something... real."
Oliver: "Is it real?"
Felicity: "I don't know."
(Oliver's cell phone beeps.)
Oliver: "It's John and Rene. They have something."

(Oliver and Chance are in the mayor's office, when Felicity enters.)
Chance: "With Church in custody, I take it that your identity's safe."
Oliver: "I hope so. Thanks for the assist and the personal insight."
Chance: "It's just part of the service. (Felicity enters) Ah. Speak of the devil."
Felicity: "Oh, am I the devil now?"
Chance: "That would definitely be my cue to leave. Take care." (Leaves)
Felicity: "Sorry to drop by unannounced."
Oliver: "It's not like you need an invitation."
Felicity: "Yeah. No. I know. I just- just between us, things have been a bit complicated - I mean, complicated's probably not the right word - it's not the wrong word."
Oliver: "I want you to be happy. And in the spirit of that, I think that you owe it to yourself to find out if what you have with Billy is... real, and I owe it to myself to embrace whatever's next for - for me when I'm not -" (Makes hand gestures like putting on hood)
Felicity: "Yes. The... Err!" (Makes hand gesture)
Oliver (laughing): "Yeah."
Felicity: "It's funny. That's what I came here to say to you."
Oliver: "We're usually on the same page."
Felicity: "About a lot of things. (They stare at each other for a moment) All right. Uh, heh. Mmm. Yes. I will see - I'll see you... later."
Oliver: "Mm-hmm."
Felicity: "Thank you."
Oliver: "You don't need to thank me."
Felicity: "Yeah."
Oliver: "I care about you. And I will always care about you. It's a mortal lock." 

Edited November 3, 2016 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

I have some issues with the Human Target plotline. What was the purpose?  Does he have a super power that makes him impervious to bullets?  Because that is the only reason I can see switching Oliver with him.  Otherwise, why couldn't Oliver just wear kevlar?  And while Oliver may have been safe,  Thea was walking around right next to the target;  she was not safe and could have been killed if the shooter chose to hit her. Nice way to watch out for your sister, Oliver. 

Very polite of the shooter to just wound the bodyguards and not kill them like most assassins would. 

Yeah, this confused me. Maybe because of the risk, they couldn't have Oliver just wear kevlar? I don't know. Part of me thinks they would've been better off revealing that the assassin had actually been on Oliver's side all along and was part of the set-up. 

I honestly think it was just so the Human Target could tell Oliver about Felicity's boyfriend. And on the topic of Human Target, that "speaking of the devil" line later on bugs me, maybe because I'm still a little annoyed about how they treated Felicity last week.

[ottoDbusdriver]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I've enjoyed the previous episodes but this one didn't work because the responsible Mayor we saw turned out to be a one off guy that is meaningless to me.  There was no training of the "Arrowfamily" from Oliver and Felicity and while Diggle got a crack at Renee, it was clearly not at all about Diggle. It was all about propping Wild Dog and I just didn't give a damn.

Still waiting for Curtis, Rory, and Evelyn to complete the salmon ladder. Just saying.

14 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

I have some issues with the Human Target plotline. What was the purpose?  Does he have a super power that makes him impervious to bullets?  Because that is the only reason I can see switching Oliver with him.  Otherwise, why couldn't Oliver just wear kevlar?  And while Oliver may have been safe,  Thea was walking around right next to the target;  she was not safe and could have been killed if the shooter chose to hit her. Nice way to watch out for your sister, Oliver. 

Very polite of the shooter to just wound the bodyguards and not kill them like most assassins would. 

Is Human Target a meta ?  Otherwise, how does he survive those gunshot wounds ? It was rather convenient that the bodyguards were only wounded in the shoulder.  I'm surprised that Thea wasn't more pissed because she was basically part of the bait in the trap.

One thing I haven't seem much mention of is -- who is this masked man that Church hired to take out the Mayor ?   And now with Church dead and Mayor Queen revealing that he is still alive will this masked man try to kill the Mayor again (since he didn't finish the job the first time) ?

On a completely separate note, Evelyn is adorable.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Arrow Trades In Its Villains

But is it a good idea to let a great bad guy go just because you think the next one will be even better?

[Ophanim]

Thnx @tvecho

Reading it, I now realize writing for this episode was extremely disastrous, and also for the first time I am not impressed with acting choices made by our leads. I dunno. Something was missing...

[Password]

Quote

Billy: "That was a bit more than I expected to get done on my lunch break. Is this a normal Wednesday afternoon for you?"
Felicity: "Well, I had to make up for last night. I hate canceling last minute."

How can there be so much eww in two statements?

[TwistedandBored]

I didn't love the episode but I didn't hate it either mainly due to Felicity's adorableness and Diggle being a badass. 

You know, I shipped and still ship couples that have worse history than Olicity. Compared to my other couples, Olicity is really the most normal of them all. However, all these other couples had passion whenever they broke-up and the person who did wrong always tried to fight for the other person. Arrow writers on the other hand has manage to make Olicity's breakup and post interactions the most weirdest thing ever. The passion and love is there but it is being repressed to make them seem adult (I am starting to hate this word).  I have seen Olicity have passionate fights about a case than I did about their relationship. Writers also don't let Oliver be proactive about wanting to get back with Felicity. I mean he talks and broods about it but he is not doing anything. It is like he expects Felicity to come crawling back to him or something. Which made me cringe when Writers had Oliver act surprised that Felicity moved on. Like did you do anything to make her think you have change or talked to her about y'all relationship. No, then take a seat Oliver.  The Arrow writers are so busy in trying to make Olicity have this "adult relationship/break-up, friendship, etc" that they are missing all the good relationship and post relationship beats. And, when you add the lack of Felicity POV in all of this then it makes the whole thing just frustrating as a viewer and as a fan of Felicity. 

I feel like one of these days I am going to change the channel and never come back until the series finale to see how it all ends. 

 

I hope all of the is clear.  I don't think I express myself right sometimes. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by TwistedandBored

[ottoDbusdriver]

59 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Oliver & Felicity gave each other the blessing to date other people. Felicity is still dating Malone. Susan Williams gave 'Oliver' (Christopher Chance) her personal cell number, which Chance passed on to Oliver and then encouraged Oliver to move on and call her.

I had no idea that Susan Williams was played by Carly Pope -- I remember her from the movie YPF, multiple appearances on '24' and her stint on the Tomorrow People.

[Ophanim]

7 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I didn't love the episode but I didn't hate it either mainly due to Felicity's adorableness and Diggle being a badass. 

You know, I shipped and still ship couples that have worse history than Olicity. Compared to my other couples, Olicity is really the most normal of them all. However, all these other couples had passion whenever they broke-up and the person who did wrong always tried to fight for the other person. Arrow writers on the other hand has manage to make Olicity's breakup and post interactions the most weirdest thing ever. The passion and love is there but it is being repressed to make them seem adult (I am starting to hate this word).  I have seen Olicity have passionate fights about a case than I did about their relationship. Writers also don't let Oliver be proactive about wanting to get back with Felicity. I mean he talks and broods about it but he is not doing anything. It is like he expects Felicity to come crawling back to him or something. Which made me cringe when Writers had Oliver act surprised that Felicity moved on. Like did you do anything to make her think you have change or talked to her about y'all relationship. No, then take a seat Oliver.  The Arrow writers are so busy in trying to make Olicity have this "adult relationship/break-up, friendship, etc" that they are missing all the good relationship and post relationship beats. And, when you add the lack of Felicity POV in all of this then it makes the whole thing just frustrating as a viewer and as a fan of Felicity. 

I feel like one of these I am going to change the channel and never come back until the series finale to see how it all ends. 

 

I hope all of the is clear.  I don't think I express myself right sometimes. 

YEESSS! ALL OF THIS. Like X 100

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, this confused me. Maybe because of the risk, they couldn't have Oliver just wear kevlar? I don't know. Part of me thinks they would've been better off revealing that the assassin had actually been on Oliver's side all along and was part of the set-up. 

 

That is what I thought initially, when I noticed the cops were conveniently shot in the shoulder and no shots were aimed in Thea's direction.

53 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

One thing I haven't seem much mention of is -- who is this masked man that Church hired to take out the Mayor ?   And now with Church dead and Mayor Queen revealing that he is still alive will this masked man try to kill the Mayor again (since he didn't finish the job the first time) ?

 

Good question

[quarks]

Not as good as the Cubs game. But not a terrible episode, either. 

Good things:

1. loved Arrow playing with the reality that at this stage, after watching Oliver "die" at least five or six times on screen, viewers are just not going to buy it. And sure enough, commercial break, sad press conference, and - REVEAL.  That was well done. Speaking of -

2. Human Target, one of the best parts of the episode. Arrow doesn't usually surprise me anymore, but I'll admit this is the second time recently that I've been caught off guard by a reveal - the Deadshot reveal in a previous episode, and the reveal in this episode that the guy fighting for affordable housing and getting Susan Williams' number and then dying wasn't actually Oliver Queen - followed by the later reveal in the big fight. And also loved the way Arrow used what we know about Oliver Queen to set up that reveal. "Oliver" doesn't know his family history/how QC was built? Well, Oliver hasn't known about a lot of family secrets on this show.

That's the sort of clever writing that Arrow can do but often forgets.

Also, yay for the latex masks. That was fun.

3. Team Baby Arrows admiring Diggle in the field. Yay.

4. Finally, someone not associated with Team Arrow, Argus or the Russian Bratva has worked out that Oliver was not on that island for five years! I've been waiting for this since the first season.

5. "Do people just walk into your secret base of operations?"

"Usually, yes."

Well, thanks for the acknowledgement, at least, Arrow.

6. Other best part of the episode: the final confrontation between Church and Prometheus, with Church quietly listening to all of the cops dying. Genuinely chilling. I haven't been feeling Prometheus until now, and he's still not exactly among my favorite Big Bads, but that one scene made him a lot more effective.

7. Also liked that Oliver was able to take down Church in just a few seconds. It's another example of Competent Fighting Oliver, someone I like more than Equal to Others or Easily Beaten Oliver.

8. The flashbacks continue to be intriguing. I'm as shocked as you are, really. Anatoly's great.

9. Loved everyone's blank/whatever expressions while they were watching Quentin's press conference. Well played, everyone.

10. And Diggle went shirtless, which, let's face it, is a solid 25% of why I tune into this show. More of this, Arrow.

11. Hey, Arrow is remembering that being the mayor includes heading to boring meetings! Yay show! I somewhat question just how bad the affordable housing situation in Star City is, given how many people have presumably fled in the last few years, but then again, a significant part of the city gets destroyed every May and we haven't really seen anything rebuilt, so maybe it's a valid problem. I'll buy that.

12. Also liked that we got at least one reason why anyone with money is still sticking around this season - the current city situation is easily exploited/corrupted.  

13. AND THE HANDS DOWN BEST PART OF THE EPISODE:

LEFT-WING, LIBERAL OLIVER CONCERNED ABOUT SOCIAL POLICY HAS FINALLY ARRIVED ON THE SHOW. Of course, technically he was someone else, but, the point is, even if this was an Oliver impersonator and not actually Oliver, it's here. It's about time, Arrow!

Now, where's Green Lantern?

Questionable things:

1. I've mostly enjoyed Wild Dog up until this episode.

And then this episode.

It's not just that Chad Coleman and David Ramsey had to do all of the heavy lifting here - that's virtually David Ramsey's role in the show at this point, and Chad Coleman is good with the scenery chewing. Or that Wild Dog broke under torture - I actually liked that Arrow showed someone breaking under torture, since that does happen in real life, and it was good to see Arrow finally acknowledging that after several seasons.  And I'm always up for more Diggle, so giving him more scenes was good. BUT -

This meant that a considerable amount of the episode focused on a secondary character who was one of the least compelling people in it. I mean, HELLO, a guy showed up who can look like anyone and is willing to pretend to be dead, one member of Team Arrow remains a virtually blank slate, we still don't know what if anything Paul knows about Curtis and just how many Olympic stats Felicity has now memorized, the Bratva plot is on, and what did Arrow do? Spend significant screentime rescuing/getting the backstory of a character who, just a few scenes back, not only betrayed Oliver but didn't immediately say, Hey, Oliver, your family is in danger. Yes, some of this was to give Arrow an excuse to get Human Target in there, partly to use the character and partly to forward the Olicity plot, and a lot of this was to heavily parallel HELLO IT IS HARD TO MOVE PAST TRAUMA which is why Oliver and Felicity are having issues, and after all of my complaints about earlier episodes not letting scenes just breathe, I probably shouldn't be complaining now that we finally had a scene get a full beat of rest. But none it felt that it needed this much time, either.

I don't think I'd mind Wild Dog as a minor part of the show. As a major focus when more interesting stuff was going on, I kinda did.

2. Also, although I realize this isn't the first time Arrow has pulled this sort of casting stunt, why is the guy technically credited as recurring/guest getting more screentime than Quentin, not to mention supposed regular and still barely seen (unless he's Prometheus) Adrian Chase?

3. Speaking of revealing Oliver Queen's identity - first, at least 60 people have figured it out or been told by now, and second, look, the historian guy over at Legends of Tomorrow figured it out just by watching the news. So really, Church, you shouldn't have had to torture anyone to figure it out, let alone assume that revealing this was going to save your life. I suspect Prometheus killed you purely out of a "You have got to me kidding me" feeling there.

4. And speaking of Diggle - just two episodes ago, the guy was hallucinating dead people, and now you want him to mentor/question a guy who was just brutally tortured? Team Arrow, you make some questionable decisions, but this one has to be near the top.

5. So, er, Diggle just happens to know a guy with the ability to look like anyone, and somehow has completely forgotten about it until this episode, even though this was something Team Arrow definitely could have used in previous episodes? 

6. And also, Diggle's face changing friend just happened to be in the same Bratva plot as Oliver years back? What were the odds, everyone? What were the odds?

7. Didn't anyone notice Human Target walking out of either the hospital or the morgue?

8. Arrow writers, this summer: Many of you have complained that our plots are unrealistic!

Arrow writers, this fall: And for our next trick, we shall shoot a man through the chest five times, and in his next scene, have him appear, completely unhurt, to give Oliver some relationship advice!  Also, did you guys all notice that tying people up arrow? TOTALLY REALISTIC, RIGHT? WE KNOW!

9. Not telling Thea about the impersonation seemed a bit cruel and unnecessary. Granted, no one on this show is particularly good at keeping secrets, and the show needed to be able to drop hints that "Oliver" wasn't Oliver, and she's endured enough fake deaths that she's probably used to it by now, but still.

10. More importantly, why didn't anyone tell Thea that Church knew Oliver's secret identity, especially since this show has given us every reason to believe that Church would target her, not Oliver? Does Team Arrow just assume that Thea assumes that everyone is after Oliver? And given how many times city officials are attacked on this show, why isn't Thea wearing a Kevlar vest whenever she heads outside?

11. Was anyone else wondering if anyone in Star City really bought the "Oliver Queen is dead," press conference? I mean, even leaving aside Oliver's various deaths and near deaths, this is at least the second time that Oliver Queen has prominently and publicly died on the show, and I was half expecting one of the city council guys to go, are we sure about that?  Could he be hiding out on some island somewhere?

12. And speaking of press conferences - Oliver, at this point, at least 50 people know your secret identity, and not all of them are dead. Look, I realize that a few eyebrows might be raised if you admit that Star City's mayor likes to run around at night dressed in leather shooting people, but this is the same city that gets attacked every May with increasingly improbable events and can never elect an untainted city official. So just tell people already. I think your reveal will be the least of Star City's PR problems. 

13. And Arrow's biggest season mystery continues to deepen: Will Evelyn get a personality? Will she?  She did have one effective moment early in the episode, and she's starting to grow on me, but I'd like her to be a bit more than "Hey, we need another woman on the team."

Bad things:

1. Show, I can't concentrate on the Evil Things Tobias Church is doing if I'm wondering why he's torturing Team Baby Arrows in the old Arrow Cave. How did he find it? And why did he leave so much blood around?

2. On a related note, show, fuzzy yellow lenses do not really do a great job of hiding that Oliver has a remarkable tendency in this year's flashbacks to follow Team Legends around their various sets. Also, I for one want to know how the Bratva ended up in one of Arrow's favorite alleyways.  

If this all doesn't end up in a season ten reveal that a group of aliens is playing with the minds of everyone in the Arrowverse, letting them THINK they're in a real place while in reality they are trapped in a limited number of sets, I am going to be so crushed.

3. Which leads me to the scene of post-coital Felicity and Mayo Cop. I didn't mind the scene, and I get why it was there - to let viewers who have missed a couple of episodes, and even viewers who, like me, have watched the last couple of episodes but have difficulty remembering which character Mayo Cop is, know that Felicity and Mayo are dating/having sex. And I liked the way the scene made a visual point of showing them separated, with Felicity's back to him, before immediately heading into a lie, in something that's a little less anvilly than Arrow's usual methods. Not much, but a little.  And it effectively set up the emotional roller coaster of the rest of the episode. Plus, of course, it let Arrow do one of its standard shirtless scenes.

What I didn't like was that it showcased a huge, ongoing problem with all four Arrowverse shows, which is that with the sole exceptions of the Jitters set and, to a much lesser extent the library set in the Legends of Tomorrow spaceship, there are virtually no sets where characters can just hang out and have casual conversations. Arrow clarified that a) Felicity and Mayo Cop are not living together and that b) that was in broad daylight - meaning that Mayo Cop, at least, just took Wednesday afternoon off for a quickie, which did nothing to increase my already shaky confidence in his detective skills. Both of those meant that a coffee date would have made just as much, if not more sense here, but Arrow couldn't have a coffee date without building another set. Which is to say, Berlanti, you need more casual sets. It's creating actual character problems.

4. Directors, I'm delighted that you have studied classic films, and I even kinda enjoy when the camera wants me to know that OOH, THESE CHARACTERS ON A BALCONY HAVE UNCERTAIN FEELINGS, but this can be overdone, and it was. 

5. Oliver, it's very nice that you're trying to hide while you are dead, but in that case, why are you hiding on a VERY OUTDOORS AND PUBLIC BALCONY visibly talking to your ex-fiancee who lives there? Just jumping onto the balcony isn't really all that deceptive.

6. Look, show, no reporter on earth is going to go, ok, I'll give you a month to clean up your act before I start slamming you on TV again, just because you're hot. And no one who has been alive for the past couple of years would expect or ask this. I realize you were going for a twist reveal there, and what's happening on Supergirl and Flash gives me no hope that Arrow will ever have realistic journalists, but can we kinda keep this tied to at least something moderately realistic?

7. This week's other Villain of the Week - the evil guy in the mask running around - was so pointless, I genuinely don't understand why Church wasn't doing his own assassinations or sending out a nameless goon to do it.

8. What's with this constant motif of forcing people to waste time digging graves, Arrow?  You keep doing it every season. Surely Church and his goons could have just left Wild Dog dead in the woods and gone and done other things. I mean, as Church himself pointed out, the cops in Star City are all either corrupt or incompetent, so just leaving a dead body around wouldn't have gotten them into trouble.

Oliver and Felicity things:

They're not over. Not by a long shot, but this got long, so I moved this over to the relationship thread.  All I'll say here is thanks, Arrow, for ensuring that we're in for still more fan speculation about when Felicity and Mayo Cop will be breaking up and if Oliver is going to sleep with the reporter.

"Thanks" might not be the actual word that I want here.

[KirkB]

I don't know much about Chance (I've never seen Human Target) but he's lucky the assassin shot him in what I'm guessing was his armored torso and not in the head.

[Hiveminder]

I think I remember a brief line where Chance told Oliver that he told Thea what was going on before he got shot, but just barely before. Which isn't much better. Oliver could at least have sent her a text. 

Did anyone else cringe when Rory touched the blood on that floor? Why do people on TV do that? Don't go around touching random blood puddles. That's gross. 

[Briscoe County III]

~Felicity poses with the (facial hairless) Oliver mask~ "You have failed this city!" ~giggle~

Hilarious!

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this episode, because the "JV Squad" was mostly in the background.  The more I see of Wild Dog the less I like him.  Is the abrasive personality supposed to make me think that he is a lost soul that needs shepherding?  Not working.  I don't like the Ragman actor so didn't mind seeing very little of him.  The girl archer is a blank slate.  And Curtis is better off in the command center as a backup/partner to Felicity.

Loved the return of Spartan.  Spartan is awesome.

Is it bad that I paid so little attention during the scene of Felicity and her boyfriend that I thought that the boyfriend and Christopher Chance were the same person?  I hope this Human Target stays on the show, he is fun.

Felicity holding up the mask and intoning "You have failed this city" and laughing until she saw Oliver's reaction.  Too funny.

[Morrigan2575]

33 minutes ago, Briscoe County III said:

~Felicity poses with the (facial hairless) Oliver mask~ "You have failed this city!" ~giggle~

Hilarious!

@Briscoe County III  Can I just say how much I LOVE your user name?!  

[Briscoe County III]

  36 minutes ago, Briscoe County III said:

~Felicity poses with the (facial hairless) Oliver mask~ "You have failed this city!" ~giggle~

Hilarious!

@Briscoe County III  Can I just say how much I LOVE your user name?!  

Thanks! I cannot adequately describe how much I miss that show. It approaches "Firefly" rage.

[looptab]

So, I blanked out during Wild Dong scenes, did he say why he was dishonorably discharged?

Also, someone said in last episode's thread that Wild Dong is the  new Laurel. So, @quarks, this is my formal request for you to do a 'Number of ways Rene fails as a human/vigilante' section, if you feel so inclined. :)

[Sunshine]

Wild Dog was dishonorably discharged because he beat up a prisoner they were transporting trying to get information. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Sunshine

[Delphi]

There was a lot I enjoyed about this actually. 

Olicity heart eyes all day erryday is nice.   As is Felicity playing with the latex Ollie mask. 

Dig is in the field,  hooray.  He's also not above mentioning how silly the baby team is.  Though it's cute how in awe Evelyn was. 

Thea is becoming someone I love again.   Though why she isn't in the field confuses me. 

 Prometheus has the least frightening voice ever.   Come on people the Flash had the fucking Candyman voicing Zoom last year,  you need to step up your voice game. And no, I don't care at all who is under the mask.

Church is dead.   But Rene isn't?  Bummer. Whatever.   At least Oliver best the crap out of him first .

Curtis,  go tell your husband what you're doing.   Good Lord,  you're a terrible person. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Delphi

[Sunshine]

Is it a coincidence that Josh Segarra (Adrian Chase) isn't in any of the episodes that Prometheus is in? AC was in 3 & 4. Prometheus is in 1, 2 & 5

[looptab]

48 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I enjoyed this episode, because the "JV Squad" 

JV Squad?

16 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Wild Dog was dishonorable discharged because he beat up a prisoner they were transporting trying to get information. 

Thank you :)

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, looptab said:

JV Squad?

Junior Varsity

[lemotomato]

4 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

One thing I haven't seem much mention of is -- who is this masked man that Church hired to take out the Mayor ?  

In the producer's preview of the episode, WM says the assassin is a comics "big DC Universe" character named Scimitar. Except according to Google, the only comics character with that name is from Marvel, so I'm not sure how that works. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by lemotomato

[SmallScreenDiva]

I thought I saw someone somewhere mention Arkham Knight? But because it was just another guy in a mask, I went "meh" and didn't dig for more info.

[lemotomato]

I think the Arkham Knight references are about the costume the assassin guy wears: 

[catrox14]

Just popping in to say, I have not yet watched the episode. This is literally FIRST episode in 5 seasons I waited an entire day to watch. I would either watch live or same day DVR.

It's weird. I'm sad at my own apathy towards what had been my favorite show.

[johntfs]

Maybe it would've been better if the guy playing Felicity's BF was played by Jason Ritter.  Felicity Smoak and Dipper Pines would be a power couple for the ages.

[statsgirl]

8 hours ago, Password said:

How can there be so much eww in two statements?

On the plus side, at least they're not living together since Felicity had to cancel the previous night.

Just not enough plus.

[Sake614]

I'm totally not feeling the new kids, probably because they ARE kids. Or at least they look and act like kids. If I didn't hear Rene say that he was dishonorably discharged from the military I would never have guessed that he was even old enough to BE in the Military! But really, I'm not watching this show for the kiddie corps. There's no chemistry among the team now, it feels like Oliver is playing dad. 

Overall I've been bored silly most of the season so far and if it doesn't improve, I'm out. 

[Twilight Man]

From the "Full Article" synopsis:

Quote

Christopher "The Human Target" Chance had his own comic book. He also had a television show that nobody remembers! Even Mark Valley has probably forgotten it, and he was the star.

Two shows actually. Back in 1992, Rick Springfield (yes, that Rick Springfield) portrayed our latex-mask wearing superhero.

This guy has had more live-action screen time than some A-list heroes (Aquaman), but alot of people probably watched tonight's episode and said "Now who's this guy??"
quarks

Quote

Also, yay for the latex masks. That was fun.

And something that was sorely missing from the aforementioned 2010 Human Target with Mark Valley.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Twilight Man

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 minutes ago, Twilight Man said:

"Christopher "The Human Target" Chance had his own comic book. He also had a television show that nobody remembers! Even Mark Valley has probably forgotten it, and he was the star."
Two shows actually. Back in 1992, Rick Springfield (yes, that Rick Springfield) portrayed our latex-mask wearing superhero.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b7JrOj6HAc
Here's a guy that has posted several of the 90's episodes up on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhQTfUzRWRMnzzO8WjBTEDLfIJf1e9aQx
This guy has had more live-action screen time than some A-list heroes (Aquaman), but alot of people probably watched tonight's episode and said "Now who's this guy??"
quarks
"Also, yay for the latex masks. That was fun."
And something that was sorely missing from the aforementioned 2010 Human Target with Mark Valley.

I remember Human Target with Mark Valley. Really enjoyed it. Can't remember the second season, though. Think I stopped watching because they messed with the core trio and added other people. I hate when shows do that. :P

[Twilight Man]

13 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I remember Human Target with Mark Valley. Really enjoyed it. Can't remember the second season, though. Think I stopped watching because they messed with the core trio and added other people. I hate when shows do that. :P

I likened the 2010 Human Target as a modern version of The A-Team, with Valley as both Hannibal and "Face", Chi McBride as Mr. T and JEH as Murdock.

So, sure enough, they added a woman as a full time cast member in Season 2 and just ruined the chemistry like they did with The A-Team.

Dear "Arrow" fans:

Sorry that we are hijacking this episode's forum to talk about the previous "Human Target" shows.  From what I'm reading, most of you didn't like this episode that much anyway.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Twilight Man said:

So, sure enough, they added a woman as a full time cast member in Season 2 and just ruined the chemistry like they did with The A-Team.

It was two women, and yep it ruined the dynamics of the show.  :(

[Cthulhudrew]

I forgot the actor playing Human Target was Wil Traval, though I knew he looked familiar. I kind of liked him tonight, and I kind of didn't. At times his portrayal was kind of stiff; I think he did a much more nuanced job on Jessica Jones, where I really enjoyed his character. Maybe if they'd given him a little more to do, I'd have enjoyed it more (the one scene I really did enjoy him in was when he and Oliver had the heart-to-heart, and even there it was a bit awkward at times.) For some reason, it almost felt like another backdoor pilot. And I thought their encounter in Russia was a little too serendipitous; maybe if they'd dropped a little bit more of a hint about just why Chance knew Oliver so well, it would have been better. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing more of him on the show.

(Frankly, I'd love to see a show with both the Christopher Chance character and Thomas Tresser/Nemesis, a similar character who I've always loved since his Brave and the Bold days.)

I actually liked this episode, and the way Oliver and Felicity handled things. I'm still not buying the whole Felicity/Billy romance (I had to think for several minutes to remember who the heck he was when he dialed her phone early in the episode), and I wish they'd have just let Oliver say that he loves Felicity and always will at the end. It's like the writers felt that having him say he loved her would be too much and the audience would take it out of context or wouldn't be mature enough to understand that you can love someone even if the two of you aren't together? Eh.

2 hours ago, Sake614 said:

I'm totally not feeling the new kids, probably because they ARE kids. Or at least they look and act like kids. If I didn't hear Rene say that he was dishonorably discharged from the military I would never have guessed that he was even old enough to BE in the Military!

This was the first episode I started to like Wild Dog's character (though I agree he looks really young; he actually looked younger with his beat-up face than he usually does). I like Ragman and the actor portraying him, but Evelyn's character still bugs me, and I think it is largely because of the actress and her acting choices. Maybe she'll get better (she is young, and still- hopefully- learning).

[BunsenBurner]

Did anything happen in the first 6 minutes of this episode? The show had technical problems and we missed the beginning.

Felicity was at the computer and they did a close up and it looked like she had rabbit teeth that were whiter than all her other teeth. Several times in the show the lighting for her was awful.

The bf sure does have a high pitched voice. In my opinion there is no chemistry between he and FS. I don't believe they are living together.

I do not like Wild Dog. He does nothing for me in terms of pushing the show forward.

Ragman shouldn't even be on Arrow he is just too powerful. He is IMO the best of the new recruits he just doesn't fit in to the back to basics show. I wonder if he was brought in to help with the take down of Prometheus and will be the 5th season death.

It felt like SA and EBR were overacting when they were together and it made my skin crawl.

Why does OQ look older in the FBs than he does in current day. He also looks bigger/heavier. Is it because of the lighting?

In conclusion the lighting in this show really was bad. 

[catrox14]

OKay finally watched it.

I actually didn't mind the Oliver/Felicity scenes because IMO those idiots are still totally in love with each other and saying all the things they think they are supposed to say to stay apart.  I am 100% convinced that Oliver saying "Were you leaving the door open" was said with total hope that she was and her "Pffft no..." was a big fat lie.

Nah, TPTB can try to stall this all they want but "heart eyes don't lie" . 

Kinda bummed that Church is apparently dead. He was a good villain and Chad Coleman is always good. 

I am obsessed with figuring out who is Promotheus. I am studying that body ...for science. I'm still coming down on it being SA.

Loved Felicity putting on Oliver's face. On paper it's not nearly as funny as how Emily played it.

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

 

Is Human Target a meta ?  Otherwise, how does he survive those gunshot wounds ? It was rather convenient that the bodyguards were only wounded in the shoulder.  I'm surprised that Thea wasn't more pissed because she was basically part of the bait in the trap.

 

A number of things bugged me about the use of the Human Target.  Like Quarks mentioned, why bring him on only to give him so little development (and why waste so much time on Wild Dong when there was such a better place to spend time on

But one of the biggest things that bugged me about the Human Target was how well known he was to everyone.  He's so mainstream that there are easily accessed records of his cases.  WTH?  The show treated him like he was some famous detective that even the public knew all about.  After the press conference it was like everyone shrugged and said, oh, that guy again but he's never existed in the Arrowverse before so the whole thing felt like a cheat.  And instead of finding it clever writing, the reveals felt like a lazy Deux Ex Machina.  

I know part of my reaction is the profound disappointment I had that they have this character that is really interesting and could have been used in an emotionally clever way (like letting the audience know character PoV without having to reveal it between characters for real), but instead he was just supposed to be a gotcha on the audience.

I say supposed to be since of course Oliver wasn't dead so not only was there really no tension, there wasn't even any good payoff for pretending he was dead.  It did nothing but push the plot forward so Oliver could be told that Felicity had moved on.

The Human Target could have been something really cool but instead it left me feeling, why bother?   I couldn't really even enjoy Felicity playing with the mask because it put in the spotlight how impossible using the mask would have been to fool anyone.  No stubble and not only didn't the mouth not open, his eyes weren't even open!  

I really thought even if I didn't like the Olicity stuff, I'd like the rest of the episode.  That didn't come close to happening.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

There were two very funny moments for me in this episode. I might have to rewatch because I can't remember the other one, but definitely the face mask thing. EBR is such a gem. Also, her arms/shoulder = goals

From this Tumblr blog

[Cthulhudrew]

Speaking of the Ollie mask, I did think it was kind of funny that apparently the mask doesn't have any stubble, but it was Chance's own stubble substituting for Ollie's.

Even though I did like this episode, I do tend to agree with BkWurm1 that there were a lot of missed opportunities with the Human Target character. It hadn't occurred to me until now, but you're absolutely right that it would have been a great (and kind of different) way to do a POV story. I'm thinking of episodes like Buffy's "Who Are You?", or "Storyteller" (even though I loathe Andrew). What a cool idea that would have been!

[tv echo]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I actually didn't mind the Oliver/Felicity scenes because IMO those idiots are still totally in love with each other and saying all the things they think they are supposed to say to stay apart.  I am 100% convinced that Oliver saying "Were you leaving the door open" was said with total hope that she was and her "Pffft no..." was a big fat lie.

When Felicity said "no" so quickly, I was reminded of that scene from 2x09 when Barry Allen asked her if she "liked" Oliver and Felicity very quickly denied that she did.

[BunsenBurner]

Why do these CW DC shows have to repeat themselves on the other shows?  Now Arrow is repeating the evil of Prometheus as an evil Arrow just like the thousand or so evil Flashes. I  think that Prometheus is an OQ doppelgänger or one of the Royal Flush guys just like they do it in the Flash.

Edited November 4, 2016 by BunsenBurner
I realized my last sentence was wrong.

[Hiveminder]

51 minutes ago, tv echo said:

When Felicity said "no" so quickly, I was reminded of that scene from 2x09 when Barry Allen asked her if she "liked" Oliver and Felicity very quickly denied that she did.

I actually didn't like the way that no was delivered. If she'd actually been talking to Barry or anyone else I would have been fine with it. Oliver just sounded really hopeful when he asked if she was leaving the door open, and she has to know how deeply he still loves her. It just seemed insensitive. Not that she said no, but the tone.