S01.E06: Career Days

[SlackerInc]

13 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Also, the girl IS a petulant brat, but she's just a little overweight.

Yes, I'm glad someone brought this up.  I agreed with the person who said in a past week that it seemed extreme to cast someone so morbidly obese to play Kate.  This casting choice seems like the opposite extreme, saying something disturbing about Hollywood standards of beauty.  Do both actors just blend in their minds into some vast and unthinkable category of "not skinny"?  I have to wonder if the writers were really picturing a body type like this girl's when writing the part; and I also wonder what the woman playing Kate thought as she said the lines about how much they had in common.

3 hours ago, JoannKB said:

True, but the mother didn't know what happened. She wasn't in the car, and she doesn't know what her daughter said to Kate. All she knew was that her daughter was left by the side of the road and found her own way home.

Seems like everyone's forgetting one thing she knows that, to me, is key: the daughter actually didn't initially even tell her mom she was left on the side of the road.  She said she "had a great time".  The mom knew this was bullshit, not the kind of thing her daughter says, so she pressed until she got the real story.  But remember: she was hoping Kate would be able to "reach" her kid, or "break through" or whatever.  The fact that her daughter initially told a story that was apparently an attempt to protect Kate, rather than throwing her under the bus, is a very tantalizing signal that maybe a connection really did spark here, through "tough love" or whatever (which is kind of a cliche, but there it is).

2 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I'm still baffled how a person with incurable stage four cancer is still such a picture of health and good cheer.

I read an interview (don't have the link now, sorry) with the actor playing William, and he says he currently has a friend who is pretty well in the same straits with advanced cancer.  This friend, the actor says, doesn't actually act super sick like you might expect.  His assertion was that it would be cliched and inaccurate to play him as really struggling, so instead he just walks slightly gingerly and subtle things like that.  FWIW, YMMV as to whether you buy it; but at least he has put some thought into it.

[OptimisticCynic]

What really annoys me about Olivia's behavior in this episode is that it's being treated like a manic pixie sage sexy quirk rather than despicable behavior it really is. Sure, there will be people at funerals the widow may not know if they actually KNEW the deceased. Exploiting their grief, pretending to have known him when she didn't, acting like it was a spontaneous, fun way to spend an afternoon to push buttons for an acting exercise is beyond the pale to me. Grief is an intimate experience. Olivia as an actress is used to demonstrating that emotion for a concept or a character and that's something she willingly signs up for. The widow, her son, and the others at that memorial service didn't sign up to be observed for performance. I will never be OK with her actions this episode. To me, it shows she's a straight up narcissist who actually lacks the empathy she spouts to know so well.

[luna1122]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

This casting choice seems like the opposite extreme, saying something disturbing about Hollywood standards of beauty.  Do both actors just blend in their minds into some vast and unthinkable category of "not skinny"?  I have to wonder if the writers were really picturing a body type like this girl's when writing the part; and I also wonder what the woman playing Kate thought as she said the lines about how much they had in common.

I think Hollywood and the fashion industry really does believe that anything over a size ten is morbidly obese. a 12, a 22, a 32....all the same in the entertainment world.

Someone the size of, for instance, Katy Mixon, who stars in the new sitcom 'American Housewife'---i'm guessing she is, at this point, a 14, maybe a 16. But tho she's presented as mostly and attractive, which is nice, the show is really just one big fat joke. I think it's nice to see people of all sizes represented, but a little more perspective and realism about how people who DON'T live in Hollywoodland would be nice.

[kat165]

Luna, good point. I don't think Katy Mixon is all that big. The wife on Matt LeBlanc's new show is about the same size yet they're not making anything of her size like they are on Katy's Mixon's show.

[Cardie]

39 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I think Hollywood and the fashion industry really does believe that anything over a size ten is morbidly obese

I suspect they think anything over a size 2 is morbidly obese. I went to grad school at UCLA many years ago and was a size 14. I walked into a boutique in Westwood because I wanted to look at some scarves but before I got five steps inside, the salesperson said snarkily, "I'm sorry but we don't have anything for you here." I always wished I could play that revenge scene from Pretty Woman for her.

[HeySandyStrange]

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

I suspect they think anything over a size 2 is morbidly obese.

In LA and other image obsessed parts of the country/world, yes it is. Which is why I'm not surprised that an otherwise kind of chubby girl is lumped in with Kate. In another part of the country the girl would be only slightly bigger then average or average and Kate, she'd still be very above the norm but definitely not alone like she might feel in LA. Add to that Kate's employer is obviously pretty well off, and I'm sure most of the daughter's peers are from wealthy families. Just a different set of standards then your average joe smoe middle class standards.

The random tidbit about Kate being in love with her former boss and it turning out badly really intrigues me. I can't wait to get more info on that, something about it sounds like it might be dark or at least provide some more depth to Kate's character.

[chocolatine]

Just now, HeySandyStrange said:

The random tidbit about Kate being in love with her former boss and it turning out badly really intrigues me. I can't wait to get more info on that, something about it sounds like it might be dark or at least provide some more depth to Kate's character.

What's really intriguing is that she told Jami Gertz that that job became "unhealthy" for her, but she's still using her former boss/love interest as a reference and he gives her glowing reviews. It could be CYA on his part to avoid a sexual harassment law suit, but in that case people usually just refuse to give references altogether. I'm suspecting that the boss never knew about how she felt, and she channeled her feelings into being a star employee, was at his beck and call, etc., and put her own needs on the back burner, hence making it "unhealthy" for herself.

[NutMeg]

Well, to all who think kid Randall is the cutest kid ever, have you looked at adult Randall's youngest? SHE is the cutest kid ever! (Good job on casting, the eldest definitely looks like the kid Beth and Randall would/could have).

Rebecca and Jack as parents - oh dear, isn't the less seen parent always the fun one? the one who doesn't have to deal with day to day mundanities and is only there for either deep or fun interactions? [Reminds me of the Mad Men discussions, actually] Personal experience, my dad, who was available randomly, holds my most cherished childhood memories. My mom, who was always there? I mostly remember the scolding times, which is very unfair, because she was also fun and a great parent, but to this day, my first reflect is to see her as judgemental and my dad as a fun and deep conversation type of person.

Funnily enough, I lived both situations as a mum. When my kid was very young, I was still working in a high powered job, often left before he was up, came back when he was already in bed. Hubby was working from home back then. On weekends, we two (kid and I) had so much fun times. Later on, I started working from home, and so I was the always-there parent. We still kept a good dynamics but obviously the "fun/interesting/thoughtful" percentage of our time together got diluted. Inevitable. Still, I made time for these and we still have then, but I also had to annoy with bath times, bedtimes, homework, etc.

Also, count me in among the people crying to random strangers. It's actually easier to cry to random strangers if you're "a Kevin", because they don't expect you to be the stoic/level-headed/ non crying type.

As for those to say they haven't been crying on this show, good for you, and I mean that . A friend of mine is a psychologist and according to her, what moves us to tears is what we deeply wish we had. She gave the example of people crying when they watch a movie where a parent tell his/her kid "I love you", because they wish their parents had told them that. So if you don't cry, it may mean all your emotional needs were met while you were growing up, and you're very lucky.

Me, before losing it about many Kevin scenes here, I used to bawl my eyes out on sibling interactions. The Wonder years often had me in tears. Why? I lost my younger brother when we were both in our twenties, I was jealous of him as a kid, and got to hear later on that he was looking up to me and talking very favourably about me to his friends, but the obvious favouritism my mum kept showing him really wounded me. We had finally got to a point where we could get on well, and then he had that car accident... I know someone who cries whenever she see people crying, even on TV, and even if she doesn't like the character, dig a bit further and she explains how her father was so stern that no crying was allowed around him. 

ETA: to all those shows that don't know how to portray a happy marriage/couple, THIS (Randall/Beth) is how you do it!

Edited November 4, 2016 by NutMeg

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yeah, big unnecessary risk there, the kid could have up and disappeared no matter how nice the neighborhood.  Kate would never forgive herself.  All she needed to do was call the new boss or just turn around and go back.

I thought that was strange too.  OT:  My mom grew up during the Depression in a small city in the South; she told me that when she was six years old she had to walk back and forth to and from school every day, seven blocks, by herself, and at the time, no one thought anything of it.  But back then, people didn't know about child predators the way they do now; also back then most people didn't have cars, people walked on sidewalks, sat on the porch.  I couldn't see a six year old child today walking by themselves for even one block.  So I couldn't see how Kate's employer was okay with Kate just kicking her daughter out of the car at all, not okay today.

Quote

What really annoys me about Olivia's behavior in this episode is that it's being treated like a manic pixie sage sexy quirk rather than despicable behavior it really is. Sure, there will be people at funerals the widow may not know if they actually KNEW the deceased. Exploiting their grief, pretending to have known him when she didn't, acting like it was a spontaneous, fun way to spend an afternoon to push buttons for an acting exercise is beyond the pale to me. Grief is an intimate experience. Olivia as an actress is used to demonstrating that emotion for a concept or a character and that's something she willingly signs up for. The widow, her son, and the others at that memorial service didn't sign up to be observed for performance. I will never be OK with her actions this episode. To me, it shows she's a straight up narcissist who actually lacks the empathy she spouts to know so well.

The thing about this show is that it doesn't "tell" you how you're supposed to feel about any said scene.  I didn't see Olivia's behavior treated as "manic pixie sage sexy" (what is that anyway?) at all.  The behavior was shown and it's up to us the audience how to interpret it.  I thought it was pretty tacky to show up at a memorial service of someone you don't know; however I do remember a friend of my mother's saying that when he was a child (in the 1930's), he and his friends would go to funeral homes, just to see who was there.  I've also heard of people going to someone's repass even if they didn't know the person.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Neurochick

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Funnily enough, I lived both situations as a mum. When my kid was very young, I was still working in a high powered job, often left before he was up, came back when he was already in bed. Hubby was working from home back then. On weekends, we two (kid and I) had so much fun times. Later on, I started working from home, and so I was the always-there parent. We still kept a good dynamics but obviously the "fun/interesting/thoughtful" percentage of our time together got diluted. Inevitable. Still, I made time for these and we still have then, but I also had to annoy with bath times, bedtimes, homework, etc.

I lived both as well, in a different way. I was the at home mom for the first 5 years (which I kinda hated, like Rebecca) and then the mister was the at home dad. Who was way more fun (the at home dad's group did lots more stuff than the mother's group), and even as the at home parent he was more easy going. Then it switched again in the middle school years, and again in high school when we both worked. Makes for interesting dynamics now that they're grown. They come to me for medical and practical advice, and him for financial. But we all have good fun when we're not in child/parent mode.

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

A friend of mine is a psychologist and according to her, what moves us to tears is what we deeply wish we had.

That's really interesting. I've only teared up twice, both with little Randall. I could make a case for each time as proof for what your friend said (removing race as the issue).

[Biggie B]

Quote

I'm still baffled how a person with incurable stage four cancer is still such a picture of health and good cheer.

I'm a cancer survivor and I do personally know a small handful of people with Stage 4. You would not know it by their appearances, unless, perhaps, you'd known them before they were diagnosed. One woman is really thin but not to the point of looking skeletal. Since she stopped chemo, her hair grew back, thinner but still there and doesn't look that different from any other woman with a pixie cut. She wears makeup and dresses quite stylishly. Yes, she's dying - probably has a year left, give or take - but for the most part, she is able to go about her day. As for her attitude...she's a bit stoic but very realistic. There are days when she is absolutely down and depressed, without a doubt - but there are plenty of days when she's quite upbeat and simply living the best she can. Ironically, I just realized she is a massive Pittsburgh Steelers fan! My uncle died peacefully at home from Stage 4 liver cancer. Aside from being yellow (jaundice), he looked pretty darn good - not skinny, had all his hair, always was laughing and singing.  Also, of course, William is a TV character, so...they're gonna take a little leeway. We viewers may not ever see him in his final days, depends how they decide to deal with his death.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

So if you don't cry, it may mean all your emotional needs were met while you were growing up, and you're very lucky.

I think some of us just don't cry in this because we see through the cinematic manipulation techniques so it has little effect.   I can cry in shows at situations that don't pertain to me in the least because I can empathize with any emotion when it's portrayed in a way that gets me invested in the characters' feelings.  I just don't feel that investment level.  It may come or it may not.  I think I just am hardened to the sad music cues, dramatic monologs, etc. that these shows rely on to induce feeling in the viewers.  

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

My uncle died peacefully at home from Stage 4 liver cancer. Aside from being yellow (jaundice), he looked pretty darn good - not skinny, had all his hair, always was laughing and singing.  

I was kind of all in with the idea that he didn't look like he was ill, until I read this. I'd completely repressed my own experience with my Mom's death from liver cancer. She died 2 weeks after being diagnosed and looked and acted like her usual self until the last few weeks.

[luna1122]

17 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think some of us just don't cry in this because we see through the cinematic manipulation techniques so it has little effect.   I can cry in shows at situations that don't pertain to me in the least because I can empathize with any emotion when it's portrayed in a way that gets me invested in the characters' feelings.  I just don't feel that investment level.  It may come or it may not.  I think I just am hardened to the sad music cues, dramatic monologs, etc. that these shows rely on to induce feeling in the viewers.  

Yes, this. I'm very empathic and can cry over things that have absolutely nothing to do with my own life, AND I can also be 'made' to cry by situations in movies and tv that I find manipulative, just because I cry easily. I resent it and think it's cheap, but I'll sometimes still cry. This show, which I find well done, well acted and written and directed, I also find pretty manipulative, and it hasn't yet made me cry. Not to say it won't, OR to say that I don't like it. I do. But nothing has truly affected me that much, yet. It certainly could have something to do with the fact that I haven't lost either parent yet, or experienced the things that have made others cry here.

If William's cat, who we haven't even met and might not ever, dies, I will cry, tho. I'm weird like that.

[random chance]

4 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

If William's cat, who we haven't even met and might not ever, dies, I will cry, tho. I'm weird like that.

Me too. I can watch (fictional) people do any number of godawful things to each other without crying, but show me an animal in a bad situation and I'm toast. Even cartoon animals.

[Clanstarling]

42 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think some of us just don't cry in this because we see through the cinematic manipulation techniques so it has little effect.   I can cry in shows at situations that don't pertain to me in the least because I can empathize with any emotion when it's portrayed in a way that gets me invested in the characters' feelings.  I just don't feel that investment level.  It may come or it may not.  I think I just am hardened to the sad music cues, dramatic monologs, etc. that these shows rely on to induce feeling in the viewers.  

I think the majority of us, even those who cry at this show, are well aware of the manipulation. All film, since the silent movie era, has used the techniques to enhance (or create) the emotional experience. Some of us choose to open ourselves to the journey and find the moments we recognize as true human experience. I haven't done much crying in this show, in some cases because the scene cuts a little too close to the bone so I have my defenses up. The couple of times I've teared up, I was blindsided by the connection I felt.

[kili]

Quote

OT:  My mom grew up during the Depression in a small city in the South; she told me that when she was six years old she had to walk back and forth to and from school every day, seven blocks, by herself, and at the time, no one thought anything of it.  But back then, people didn't know about child predators the way they do now; also back then most people didn't have cars, people walked on sidewalks, sat on the porch.  I couldn't see a six year old child today walking by themselves for even one block.  So I couldn't see how Kate's employer was okay with Kate just kicking her daughter out of the car at all, not okay today.

I don't think Gemma was six. I have the very strong impression that she is a teenager. If you are old enough to babysit, you are old enough to walk a few blocks through an upscale residential area. Sure, she could still get hauled into a van by a predator, but so can an adult. If you can't kick a verbally abusive 14 year old out of your car in the middle of the day, at what age can you kick people out of your car? Never? You just have to take the abuse until you can convince them to give you a destination?

True confession....I let my child walk home from school and he is under 18. He even crosses the street.

[ClareWalks]

31 minutes ago, kili said:

I don't think Gemma was six. I have the very strong impression that she is a teenager. If you are old enough to babysit, you are old enough to walk a few blocks through an upscale residential area. Sure, she could still get hauled into a van by a predator, but so can an adult. If you can't kick a verbally abusive 14 year old out of your car in the middle of the day, at what age can you kick people out of your car? Never? You just have to take the abuse until you can convince them to give you a destination?

True confession....I let my child walk home from school and he is under 18. He even crosses the street.

Amen. If my son, especially at that age, was mouthing off to someone in their car and they dropped his broke-ass off miles from home and made him walk, I'd send them a fruit basket and ask myself where I went wrong in my parenting. 

[Court]

My 8 year old waits at the bus stop by himself. He can walk to his friends house with no supervision. It's a pretty good mix here as far as what's allowed 

[ZaldamoWilder]

12 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I think Hollywood and the fashion industry really does believe that anything over a size ten is morbidly obese. a 12, a 22, a 32....all the same in the entertainment world.

Someone the size of, for instance, Katy Mixon, who stars in the new sitcom 'American Housewife'---i'm guessing she is, at this point, a 14, maybe a 16. But tho she's presented as mostly and attractive, which is nice, the show is really just one big fat joke. I think it's nice to see people of all sizes represented, but a little more perspective and realism about how people who DON'T live in Hollywoodland would be nice.

I'm late as always.  It took me a minute to realize this is the same lady who played Molly's sister on Mike & Molly.   It was driving me crazy where I knew her face and voice from.   Hollywood sucks.  I'd be surprised to find out she's over a size 12 but stacked up next to some 2s.

I get why Kate kicked Gemma out because I'm not here for disrespect, BUT, two things bothered me about it.   There wasn't any regard for the kid's safety.  Yeah, Uber and all, but that still leaves a kid standing on a street corner, in a nice neighborhood sure, but standing on a street corner waiting for a ride.   A more tempered response would be to stop the car, call the uber and tell the driver she'll tell you where she's going.    I thought how it was gonna end was with Gemma intentionally disappearing for a couple days to teach everybody a lesson.   So while it's clear that she wasn't stranded since she did get back home, Kate would've absolutely gotten herself an invitation to my doorstep for the potential consequences.    The second thing this is probably just as if not more important is the impulsivity with which she's dealing with a child.   A child she doesn't know.   Ya'll said Jamie said she's wanted to do that a time or two herself, but didn't.   Either way it's her prerogative but the point is Jamie knows her kid and her capabilities, but Kate doesn't so if her temperament resulted in what could've been disastrous, she was right to fully expect to lose her job.    All hypothetical since I probably wouldn't leave my kid with a stranger though. 

[kili]

Quote

I get why Kate kicked Gemma out because I'm not here for disrespect, BUT, two things bothered me about it.   There wasn't any regard for the kid's safety.  Yeah, Uber and all, but that still leaves a kid standing on a street corner, in a nice neighborhood sure, but standing on a street corner waiting for a ride.

I assumed that they would logically be not far from the house and it was within walking distance. Gemma categorically refused to give Kate Ashley's address, so what is Kate to do? She's not going to have driven a far distance because any direction is far more likely to be the wrong direction than the right one. The only logical thing to do is to continue to drive in the vicinity of your starting point until you get an address or at least a general destination. Plus, one might suspect that Ashley is a school friend and would live nearby. Even if Ashley is not actually a school friend, Kate didn't know and school friend is the best guess.

If Kate did the logical thing when presented with no information about the destination, then Gemma did not need an Uber to get home.

If Kate had dropped an unruly six year old off in a high-crime neighbourhood after dark far from home, I'd be saying she was wrong. But, what I infer she did is dropped an abusive teenager off in broad daylight in a nice neighbourhood a few blocks from where she lived. That's why the mother reacts the way she does (apologetic rather than outraged).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I think the majority of us, even those who cry at this show, are well aware of the manipulation. All film, since the silent movie era, has used the techniques to enhance (or create) the emotional experience. Some of us choose to open ourselves to the journey and find the moments we recognize as true human experience. I haven't done much crying in this show, in some cases because the scene cuts a little too close to the bone so I have my defenses up. The couple of times I've teared up, I was blindsided by the connection I felt.

I agree that we sign up for it.  Though by sitting in front of the tv at all, that's my "opening myself up to the journey".  From there the show has to lead me to emotions while avoiding the "rolling my eyes at the cheese level" kind.  It's a tough mission, I don't know how some shows do it.

This show has it's good parts and I'll keep watching.  I liked the gifted education storyline and I can relate to Randall's career issue, too.  It's just not making any gut level connection with me yet.  

I like Jack but I kind of miss him as a drinker because now he's being portrayed as too saintly almost.  Moore/Rebecca was getting to me this time.  Kate's story was ok.  I'm a little tired of the teen-bitch-from-hell trope.  

I didn't like Kevin's story.  I don't think he'd feel grief over that situation with starlet girl, just annoyance.  I do enjoy Hartley.  But the sex felt like they had to force it in this week somewhere.  Hey, at least it was in a recently dead stranger's spare bedroom and not a broom closet or public restroom! 

[ShadowFacts]

47 minutes ago, kili said:

If Kate had dropped an unruly six year old off in a high-crime neighbourhood after dark far from home, I'd be saying she was wrong. But, what I infer she did is dropped an abusive teenager off in broad daylight in a nice neighbourhood a few blocks from where she lived. That's why the mother reacts the way she does (apologetic rather than outraged).

The kid was screwing with both Kate and her mother, and nothing bad ended up happening, but Kate had no way to know something wouldn't.  She overreacted, she acts impulsively like both her brothers and father sometimes do.   All she needed to do was turn around and dump the daughter back on her mother's lap.  It wouldn't occur to me to do anything but that.  She's not cooperating, here you go, boss.  Chips fall where they may, but I'm not responsible. 

 

35 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I like Jack but I kind of miss him as a drinker because now he's being portrayed as too saintly almost.  

I think he was drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon in this episode.  With all the drinking that's been portrayed, I'm sure it will be revisited.  He had gone on the wagon according to what he said in the pool episode, and this is after that.  He is kind of bucking for sainthood, though, and so is William.  But I can handle it so far.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, kili said:

I don't think Gemma was six. I have the very strong impression that she is a teenager. If you are old enough to babysit, you are old enough to walk a few blocks through an upscale residential area. Sure, she could still get hauled into a van by a predator, but so can an adult. If you can't kick a verbally abusive 14 year old out of your car in the middle of the day, at what age can you kick people out of your car? Never? You just have to take the abuse until you can convince them to give you a destination?

True confession....I let my child walk home from school and he is under 18. He even crosses the street.

I never said Gemma was six; my point was that years ago, people weren't as hyper aware of predators as we are today.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

All she needed to do was turn around and dump the daughter back on her mother's lap. 

I think this is the sort of manipulation that annoys me.  Instead of the normal response of taking the kid home, they chose the dramatic one of dropping her ass right there, as if to make the audience cheer more for plucky Kate.  Gemma's extreme brattiness also seems more written to that end than to be like any reality, too.   

I guess they just feel like writing shortcuts to me.  Though I think that's kind of what you get with network tv ensemble shows.  Not enough viewers would hang in for the slower payoff in a story with more realistic characters and actions, fewer monologs and cheering scenes, and less closet sex. 

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I never said Gemma was six; my point was that years ago, people weren't as hyper aware of predators as we are today.

I have friends who have teenagers under 16 in LA they Uber themselves to activities and friends houses all the time. My friends in NYC with teenagers allow them to use the subway, taxis and car services by themselves everyday.

[luna1122]

I don't think it is the point that Gemma, a teenager, couldn't get around by uber or lyft or walked alone or whatever. Clearly, she could and did. It's that Kate was instructed by her employer to give Gemma a lift.  She put her out of the car cuz she didn't like the kid's attitude, which I get. However, IMO, not her call to make.  Yeah, take her back to the house, tell the mom--her boss---what the deal was. You can treat your own kid that way, but not someone else's. Obviously, in this case, it turned out fine, but most moms would fire Kate. Or sue her. or something.

[ZaldamoWilder]

1 hour ago, kili said:

I assumed that they would logically be not far from the house and it was within walking distance. Gemma categorically refused to give Kate Ashley's address, so what is Kate to do? She's not going to have driven a far distance because any direction is far more likely to be the wrong direction than the right one. The only logical thing to do is to continue to drive in the vicinity of your starting point until you get an address or at least a general destination. Plus, one might suspect that Ashley is a school friend and would live nearby. Even if Ashley is not actually a school friend, Kate didn't know and school friend is the best guess.

If Kate had dropped an unruly six year old off in a high-crime neighbourhood after dark far from home, I'd be saying she was wrong. But, what I infer she did is dropped an abusive teenager off in broad daylight in a nice neighbourhood a few blocks from where she lived. That's why the mother reacts the way she does (apologetic rather than outraged).

What was within walking distance, Ashley's house?  See that's the part we don't know and neither did Kate, that's my point.  It could've been 5 blocks or 5 miles but it didn't matter as Kate's reaction superseded whichever possibility.   I suggested what Kate was to do.   Call a car to get her from where they were, ensuring she got to Ashley's without having to put up with her anymore or as someone upthread suggested, turn back around and leave the car in Jami's driveway and let her and her mother figure it out.  Hell, she could've driven 2 mph and snail trailed Gemma on the sidewalk while she remained in the car.    I'm not objecting to Kate's refusal to be disrespected, I'm saying in real life the tradeoff was not the potential harm to Gemma.  If not, it doesn't really make sense to have Kate tell Jami she'd understand if Jami wanted to report her for child abuse.   <-- Why would Kate legitimately consider it abusive if that wasn't a risky move?   

1 hour ago, kili said:

If Kate did the logical thing when presented with no information about the destination, then Gemma did not need an Uber to get home.

She needed something because we know her mother didn't go pick her up.     If she got home by walking, clearly nothing happened and all's well that ends well, but that's a coincidence and a pretty fortunate one since on foot was not Jami's intended method of travel for Gemma.    The presumable reason that any kid (who's old enough) would be driven somewhere they're capable of getting to on foot is nothing other than safety and/or assurance that they're going where they said they were.

Edited November 4, 2016 by ZaldamoWilder

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

The presumable reason that any kid (who's old enough) would be driven somewhere they're capable of getting to on foot is nothing other than safety and/or assurance that they're going where they said they were.

I think it's mainly convenience and speed, to be honest.  We all drive a lot of places we could walk.  It's not about safety or trust very often for me, kids included. 

1 hour ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

What was within walking distance, Ashley's house? 

I think Gemma's house must've been walking distance, unless Kate drove 10 miles without any idea where she was going, which seems unlikely.

[kili]

Quote

What was within walking distance, Ashley's house?  See that's the part we don't know and neither did Kate, that's my point.  It could've been 5 blocks or 5 miles but it didn't matter as Kate's reaction superseded whichever possibility.

Kate had no idea where Ashley lived. I was merely suggesting that the logical thing for Kate to do in the situation was to keep driving near Gemma's house until she got a destination. If she guesses that Ashley lives to the North and drives 10 miles in that direction, she's gone 10 miles the wrong way if the house is East, West or South of Gemma's house. There are 359 points on the compass to go in the wrong direction and only one in the right direction. If you have no clue where your destination is and you must drive, the most logical thing to do is to continue to drive in tight circles around your starting point until you get a destination.

Kate would have been within a block or two of Gemma's house and Gemma was able to walk home. Kate fully expected to get fired for what she did. Kate did not want a job where she was expected to drive around a nasty teenager who took pleasure in endlessly humiliating her. If Kate wanted a job rehabilitating brats, she would be looking for job with that as the job description. She wasn't. She was looking for a job as a party planner.  Kate came back expecting to be out of a job, but her employer admitted that she was more out of line than Kate was.

Could Gemma have been picked up by a predator while walking two blocks home? Sure. She probably stood a greater chance of being hit by a semi if Kate had continued to drive her around endlessly as Gemma distracted her by flinging insults at her.  Could Gemma have run away? Sure. But if Kate had somehow found Ashley's house and dropped off Gemma, she could still have run away.

Kate's actions might have been impulsive and not well thought out, but they aren't outrageously dangerous. YMMV.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

OT:  My mom grew up during the Depression in a small city in the South; she told me that when she was six years old she had to walk back and forth to and from school every day, seven blocks, by herself, and at the time, no one thought anything of it.  But back then, people didn't know about child predators the way they do now; also back then most people didn't have cars, people walked on sidewalks, sat on the porch.  I couldn't see a six year old child today walking by themselves for even one block.  So I couldn't see how Kate's employer was okay with Kate just kicking her daughter out of the car at all, not okay today.

Sadly, I think this is part of the problem - statistically, kids are now safer than they have been (at least in the US, broadly speaking - specific locations obviously vary) at almost any other point in history.  But because we have mass media, any one instance is much more publicized than it ever was in history, so there is more fear of something that is less likely.  I don't think Kate was terribly out of line in doing what she did, but I think it was BONKERS for her to expect continued employment.  I'm even more flabbergasted that Jami thanked her.  That doesn't track.

[OtterMommy]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I was kind of all in with the idea that he didn't look like he was ill, until I read this. I'd completely repressed my own experience with my Mom's death from liver cancer. She died 2 weeks after being diagnosed and looked and acted like her usual self until the last few weeks.

I think it depends on the cancer, how long they've been fighting it, etc.  Sometimes, it is the treatment that makes the patients look so ill, not the actual disease.  It doesn't look like William is receiving any treatment other than oral medications, so it is conceivable that he could look fairly well, even though he is dying.

[Tiger]

17 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

In LA and other image obsessed parts of the country/world, yes it is. Which is why I'm not surprised that an otherwise kind of chubby girl is lumped in with Kate. In another part of the country the girl would be only slightly bigger then average or average and Kate, she'd still be very above the norm but definitely not alone like she might feel in LA. Add to that Kate's employer is obviously pretty well off, and I'm sure most of the daughter's peers are from wealthy families. Just a different set of standards then your average joe smoe middle class standards.

Hayley Atwell, who I think is sexy as fuck, is considered "fat" by Hollywood standards.

Im really glad that the Marvel folks and thus far ABC and the Conviction producers are letting her keep her full figure.  

And this is getting off-topic, but women's clothing sizing make no fucking sense.  I remember I had a female friend once tell me something like for some designers she's a 6, other designers an 9 and other designers a 3.

For guys if your a 30 your a 30 across the board.

[ThoughtAFool]

16 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Rebecca and Jack as parents - oh dear, isn't the less seen parent always the fun one? the one who doesn't have to deal with day to day mundanities and is only there for either deep or fun interactions?

This.

Hopefully they're just giving Rebecca some depth by not making her the perfect "Donna Reed" mother.  

Somewhere back in the thread someone (sorry, I forget who) mentioned that maybe these flashbacks are being filtered through the kids' memories.  If so, in addition to being the day-to-day heavy lifting parent instead of the fun parent, she's also suffering from contrast with the fond memories of dear departed daddy.  (And the resentment of Miquel is fueled by viewing him in opposition to the sainted Jack, as well.)

[JudyObscure]

I don't think it's matters one bit about Gemma's age, her destination, her phone or her safe neighborhood.   If Gemma's mother wanted her to walk she would have told her to walk, she wanted her driven to Ashley's and it was her call to make.  That's the boss/employee relationship, if she tells you to go pick-up her laundry and you don't like the dress, you don't get to throw it in the trash.  Not even if you don't think laundry pick-up is in your job description. Kate was hired as general assistant as well as event planner, if Kate decided she didn't want that part of the job or that she couldn't stand to be around Gemma and her rudeness then she should have told her boss that and either quit the job or worked out a deal where  "Gemma duty," was off.  But first, she should have taken Gemma to Ashley's or back home.

[BoogieBurns]

I've cried every single episode, but not because of something I wish I had. I'm not trying to say psychology is wrong, I just wonder why my brain is wired different. I cry almost every time William is on the screen. When he was getting blood tests and such at Randall's doctor referral, that was the hardest I cried until Kate grabbed the urn. I just cry. Only during this show. But I don't wish I was given up for adoption and my birth father was dying of cancer. It makes me sad.

[chocolatine]

I've never come close to crying (the only time a TV show has made me cry was the SATC finale) but do enjoy the show very much.

[hippielamb]

On Thursday, November 03, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think it was selfish, personally. He was trying to comfort her and he ended up breaking down instead. Unfortunately, it happened at a bad time, but the widow didn't seem to mind. Kevin even made reference to him breaking down at a bad time. 

I think it's because I relate to Kevin that I feel sympathy for him. I have a sister who takes up most of my parents' attention. Even in her mid twenties, my parents are always catering to her and I've always gotten the short end of the stick. So yeah, I definitely can see how Jack's death would affect him and why he would break down, maybe at an inopportune time. I don't know if he ever dealt with Jack's death. It seems like he's been suppressing it for a while.

Olivia is a very selfish person, if anyone is selfish. She takes pride on her work, which is fine, but her methods of teaching Kevin how to act are wrong, as she didn't even feel any remorse or guilt (that she expressed) about crashing a random memorial service. And then, for a job well done on I guess learning her lesson and breaking down, she rewards him with sex, which is very odd. I think she's just too intense and too selfish for my liking. Like I've pointed out before, she reminds me of Toby in that regard and with Kate and Kevin's self esteem issues, it makes sense as to why they're drawn to the same types of people. I hope that both Olivia and Toby are just a gateway for Kate and Kevin to find themselves. 

 

I just thought it was odd to volunteer information about his father to the widow and make it all about Kevin's grief. Obviously this show is about their family and it gives insight but I can't imagine talking to a grieving widow and giving her my sob story. 

I can relate to feeling like an outsider in the family but I haven't warmed up to adult Kevin. It's easier for me to relate to Randall. Kevin is pretty to look at but I don't sympathize him yet.

I think Olivia is very focused on the play and wants it to be good. Her co-star has no stage experience and was only chosen because of his fame. I like that she doesn't try to coddle him and calls him on his b.s. 

 

17 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Rebecca and Jack as parents - oh dear, isn't the less seen parent always the fun one? the one who doesn't have to deal with day to day mundanities and is only there for either deep or fun interactions? [Reminds me of the Mad Men discussions, actually] Personal experience, my dad, who was available randomly, holds my most cherished childhood memories. My mom, who was always there? I mostly remember the scolding times, which is very unfair, because she was also fun and a great parent, but to this day, my first reflect is to see her as judgemental and my dad as a fun and deep conversation type of person.

Funnily enough, I lived both situations as a mum. When my kid was very young, I was still working in a high powered job, often left before he was up, came back when he was already in bed. Hubby was working from home back then. On weekends, we two (kid and I) had so much fun times. Later on, I started working from home, and so I was the always-there parent. We still kept a good dynamics but obviously the "fun/interesting/thoughtful" percentage of our time together got diluted. Inevitable. Still, I made time for these and we still have then, but I also had to annoy with bath times, bedtimes, homework, etc.

 

As for those to say they haven't been crying on this show, good for you, and I mean that . A friend of mine is a psychologist and according to her, what moves us to tears is what we deeply wish we had. She gave the example of people crying when they watch a movie where a parent tell his/her kid "I love you", because they wish their parents had told them that. So if you don't cry, it may mean all your emotional needs were met while you were growing up, and you're very lucky.

I had a similar experience, only seeing my father a couple times a year when he would visit. Those were the happy times, while my stern aunt who raised me was more like a drill sergeant. My kids had a "fun" dad while I kept the rent paid. Though I did try to be fun, sometimes the day to day realities of being a parent can take away from that. I really like Jack in this, which is a surprise because Milo's previous roles were not something I enjoyed. 

Now, that's interesting! I rarely cry unless it is super sad, a tearjerker or a painful break-up onscreen. (I used to watch Parenthood and get annoyed by the crying that seemed to happen in every episode.) I was touched by the young Randall scene with Jack but it didn't make me cry. He really tugs at my heart, probably because I can most closely relate to him.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't think it's matters one bit about Gemma's age, her destination, her phone or her safe neighborhood.   If Gemma's mother wanted her to walk she would have told her to walk, she wanted her driven to Ashley's and it was her call to make.  That's the boss/employee relationship, if she tells you to go pick-up her laundry and you don't like the dress, you don't get to throw it in the trash.  Not even if you don't think laundry pick-up is in your job description. Kate was hired as general assistant as well as event planner, if Kate decided she didn't want that part of the job or that she couldn't stand to be around Gemma and her rudeness then she should have told her boss that and either quit the job or worked out a deal where  "Gemma duty," was off.  But first, she should have taken Gemma to Ashley's or back home.

I think it differed a little from picking up laundry in that her boss told her part of why she hired her was to forge some sort of relationship with Gemma.  I don't know if pushing her out was part of her relationship forming plan on some level or just a dramatic FUCK YOU BOTH way to quit (or whichever Jamie Gertz chose for her) but I'm pretty sure it's going to wind up making Kate effective with Gemma, don't you think?  

[Clanstarling]

12 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

I just thought it was odd to volunteer information about his father to the widow and make it all about Kevin's grief. Obviously this show is about their family and it gives insight but I can't imagine talking to a grieving widow and giving her my sob story. 

My take wasn't that he was making it about himself, at least initially. The widow had just offered him her husband's clothes, saying that her teenage son didn't want any of it. I think it started as a clumsy attempt on his part, using his own experience,  to tell the widow not to be in a hurry to get rid of stuff, because her son might come around to wanting something of his father's and regret that he'd rejected the idea of keepsakes.

[CleoCaesar]

Quote

If William's cat, who we haven't even met and might not ever, dies, I will cry, tho. I'm weird like that.

Same here. I haven't so much as teared up at anything in this show, and it kind of baffles me that so many people can't stop actually crying over it, but I'm weird like that. But if the cat gets hurt/dies, that's just too far.

Quote

 Well, to all who think kid Randall is the cutest kid ever, have you looked at adult Randall's youngest? SHE is the cutest kid ever!

To me that kid is definitely the cutest one on the show right now. Even her voice is adorable.

[Cardie]

I'm sure some arrangements have been made for the cat offscreen. The writers needed an explanation for William's long absences and once the cat provided it, they made sure it wouldn't come to Randall's house, because then they'd have to hire a trained cat, etc. Basically it was mentioned as a one-off and they think we won't even remember. Perhaps a couple of lines explaining where it is got cut for time.

Frankly, I refuse to worry about Clooney after the tension I endured over the cat in The Night Of.

[BoogieBurns]

6 minutes ago, Cardie said:

I'm sure some arrangements have been made for the cat offscreen.

Are we sure William isn't going home during the day anymore? 

11 hours ago, luna1122 said:

If William's cat, who we haven't even met and might not ever, dies, I will cry, tho.

Oh, I'm not sure any cat has ever made me cry. Dogs do. I'm clearly a monster. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

But if the cat gets hurt/dies, that's just too far.

But how could the cat possibly get hurt or die?  Its whole existence in the story was to show how much of a saint William is.  Saints don't ride 3 hours on a bus to feed a cat then just decide to stop doing it.  Even if his stomach cancer in his brain, it wouldn't happen because Randall knows.  Randall who washes and dries the blender after his morning smoothie is going to let a cat starve?  This is a 'tug at your heartstrings cuz they all so lovable' show, not American Horror Story.  

[Emily Thrace]

30 minutes ago, Cardie said:

I'm sure some arrangements have been made for the cat offscreen. The writers needed an explanation for William's long absences and once the cat provided it, they made sure it wouldn't come to Randall's house, because then they'd have to hire a trained cat, etc. Basically it was mentioned as a one-off and they think we won't even remember. Perhaps a couple of lines explaining where it is got cut for time.

Frankly, I refuse to worry about Clooney after the tension I endured over the cat in The Night Of.

Actually I was just thinking maybe the cat could go and live with Kevin. Since it clearly needs a new home and I think if it was possible for him to move into Randall's they would have already. Besides Kevin could stand to take care of something else and then he wouldn't have to live alone.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Well, to all who think kid Randall is the cutest kid ever, have you looked at adult Randall's youngest? SHE is the cutest kid ever!

Yes!  I am simply enchanted with that little face!  It's like inside this beautiful little girl you can see the beautiful Cecily Tyson old lady she's going to become.

Edited November 5, 2016 by JudyObscure
Original quote by NutMeg, Cleocaesar was agreeing.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/1/2016 at 9:29 PM, Lady Calypso said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

So, that sucks. I honestly thought 2005, which would have placed them at 25, but I guess it's even ten years before THAT. I think it sucks more because that means we get less Milo flashback scenes than what they could do with them at adult ages. I mean, the child actors are going to grow up soon and if this show goes on for more than three seasons, they'll have limited stories to really tell. I know it would be fifteen years worth of stories, but we won't see Jack lead the kids to adulthood. It just...it just really sucks. 

 

On 11/1/2016 at 10:10 PM, KaveDweller said:

I'd actually call the year he died a pretty big spoiler, and it should probably be tagged.  

I'm really confused about this.  The year Jack died is considered a spoiler, and the show appears to be trying to generate suspense about it, but it's OK for the actors to provide the information in an interview?  Makes no sense.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

I think he was drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon in this episode.  With all the drinking that's been portrayed, I'm sure it will be revisited.  He had gone on the wagon according to what he said in the pool episode, and this is after that.

No, actually, this scene with the beer was before the scenes at the pool. Jack had a beard in this scene and the kids were in high chairs. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Aloeonatable said:

No, actually, this scene with the beer was before the scenes at the pool. Jack had a beard in this scene and the kids were in high chairs. 

Yeah, you're right, the chronology messes with my mind.  I was thinking he had a beer in the scene of him at work after-hours with Randall (which would have been truly inappropriate).  I think Kevin was holding a beer at Randall's in present day which may have also permeated my brain.

[possibilities]

The thing about crying with a stranger is that it's the foundation of most support groups, where people who don't know each other get together and tell their stories, share their feelings, etc. It seems to be very helpful to a lot of people. Something like a memorial is made for people to do exactly what Kevin did, and it's helpful to the family as well as the guests. Obviously, not everyone grieves the same way, so some may find it obnoxious, but it's a very common grief style/procedure, so to me I completely bought it. It's bonding over a shared/similar experience.

As for Kate, the only bummer is that if her new job continues to go so well, she won't soon (or ever) be moving east to reunite with her brothers. I really , really want to see her with Randall, I feel as if that's a missing piece of the puzzle. I don't want the show to be three mini-shows under the umbrella of their parents.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. I have to think the show has a plan to get the various family members into the same scenes/stories, but I wish we didn't have to wait for it to happen. Why did they set the show on two coasts, I wonder?

Re Kate kicking the kid out of the car: I did childcare for a family with two working parents, and I was very nervous about disciplining the kids or making rules at first. But then the mother told me she was actually really annoyed by the previous hire, who would say things like: "we'll see what your mother thinks" and generally did not take a strong enough line with the kids, causing the kids to become wild and troublesome. So she wanted me to do what I felt I had to do to supervise. I am sure that if I had done something horrible, she would not have liked it. But you can't really hire someone to care for your child unless you trust their judgment (you can, I guess, but you shouldn't).

What I thought happened with Kate is that they got in the car, turned off the driveway into the street, Kate asked where they were going, the kid refused to tell her, and Kate kicked her out. In other words, the kid was right by her very own house. It was bolder than I would have been. But if you have a teenager who is this defiant, Kate had not many good choices.

She could have reversed the car and driven right back up the driveway, but it would have only proved to her boss that she was not capable of managing the kid. If the fear is that the kid will run away, that could happen at any point, including right outside the front door if Kate reversed the car and drove her home.

She could have stopped the car and refused to go again until the child told her the address, but then she's in a battle of wills with a teen who has proven she has no boundaries. They could have sat there for the next 6 weeks before the kid relented-- and the kid is in control of Kate if Kate waits and allows her to delay the journey or be criminally rude and forces Kate to wait.

She could call a car for the kid, but again-- that's giving the kid a win, by manipulating Kate, inconveniencing her, and again showing mom that Kate can't do her job.

Kate had no winning options, so she opted out of the situation. I don't think she expected to keep the job-- in fact she didn't want the job and had to be convinced to keep it, which she agreed to only under better terms.