S05.E04: Penance

[BkWurm1]

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Not really liking Wild Dog that much. I don't think a torture montage is going to change that. And Curtis' hair getting calmed down seems wrong. 

Yeah, I miss Curtis's hair.  

As for Wild Dong, torture away.  I don't care.  I'd prefer he didn't die cause Felicity would feel bad but I'm like Lance, this is nothing after all the crap we went through last year.  And he's an ass that effs every thing up.  

13 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm also getting a kick out of the fact that they're going SUPER ANVIL TIMES with tying whatever's happening in the flashbacks with present time. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, it's just making very very sure that something -- anything at all -- in Russia makes us go "oooh, paralell". Ringing a bell, getting into a prison, it doesn't matter. But look it, after two seasons of disconnected flashbacks, now we're TIED, YO.

I found it super odd when they had the DA get the parallel when he was trying to get Church's man to flip.  I suppose that's one of the "subtle" things the show runners  are doing to

Spoiler

foreshadow him become another mask.  

[Morrigan2575]

18 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

Four ep in and I am not feeling wild dog.  can he stop calling Felicity Blondie

I like Wild Dog although I didn't like his attitude at the start of this episode. However, I'm guessing this is going to be his changing point. The show really does seem to love him because he's getting all the big emotional stuff. 

Rory has really grown on me, I like him, not fond of the whole Ragman thing but, Rory is a good character.  What's killing me is that I'm really starting to hate Curtis. I think Curtis and Artemis need to go, they're pointless.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Yeah....Curtis go bye bye.

[Morrigan2575]

I hate to say this but, I think Artemis is just there to have a female presence while Speedy is off the team. I think she's gone as soon as they decide to put Thea back on the team. They've done absolutely nothing with her over 4 episodes. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

I can't disagreed. They haven't done anything and they haven't set her up for anything.

Im honestly a little bummed. I was hoping we would at least see some female bonding with Felicity.

[BkWurm1]

Artemis is getting so little character building that I really wouldn't be surprised to see her go.  She got an intro last year, but this year she's just there to further Wild Dog's story line.  She's someone he brings along so he can express his POV.  She's someone he undercuts so he can express his...crappy judgement?  She's not even here to move Oliver's story otherwise the show would have spent time showing Oliver teaching her to shoot.  The show is called Arrow after all.  They had no interest in showing her sudden interest in archery or why she got the new code name.       She's a prop just like Mayo boy.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by BkWurm1

[thuganomics85]

This was a weird episode, where Oliver was doing a lot of stuff that normally annoys me (ignoring advice, being brash and short with everyone, going against someone else's wishes), but I was kind of on his side with everything, because I find Diggle's logic to be so flawed and stupid, that I'm with Oliver being "This is stupid!  I love Diggle, but he's being an idiot!" about this.  I understand why Felicity was against it and frustrated with him, but I'm actually OK with him ignoring her and still doing it.  And, really, Felicity?  I love you, but what did you really think would be gain from sending the Rookies after him.  There was no way they would talk him down.   Physically preventing him?  Ha!  That was never going to happen. Just some weird writing going on around here for this plot.

Either way, at least Diggle is now out of prison, but he's a fugitive now, and in hiding, so he still won't be joining the team again anytime soon.  I hope they speed this up, because I'm missing with him on Team Arrow, especially with Felicity.  And I really want to see his reaction to the newbies.

Speaking of which, they continue to remind me why I'm pretty much with Oliver on his annoyed reaction to them.  Sometimes it feels like they (mainly Wild Dog), never learn.  I get there is a learning curve to this, but man, this team is not bringing it.

Except Rory.  Rory continues to easily be the best thing about this new group.  His scenes with Felicity were great and I even like the humor he brings, like him wondering if Oliver just waits around to make a grand entrance (answer: yes.  Yes, he does.)  And I finally realized why I found the actor so familiar: he was on Blindspot last season, as Daniel, Patterson's boyfriend!  He's really good!  Hope he sticks around.

Church is still an impressive physical threat, and Chad L. Coleman brings the menace, but if him kidnapping one of the noobs is suppose to be suspenseful, then they should have had him capture someone other then Wild Dog.  I could care less about what happens to that obnoxious prick.

The flashbacks continue to be better then last season, which his a low bar, but I will continue to take it at this point.

I still think something is up with this Price guy.

I hope both Thea and Quentin get to do more soon.  They are kind of being wasted in these roles.

[quarks]

Not quite as good as the previous three episodes, but still fun.

Good things:

1. "Hi John. What's new?"  

Hey. I laughed.  

Oliver and Diggle bromance for the win.

2. Ragman! Rapidly becoming my favorite addition to the show. Yeah, yeah, I know his magic rags are completely against the concept of "nitty gritty" that this season was supposed to be going back to, and he's so much more powerful than the other Baby Arrows that it's kinda ridiculous, but he's also one of the nicest and most interesting additions, winning me over in just a few scenes, and playing off very well with Oliver, Felicity and the rest of Team Arrow.

3. Several things that I liked about Team Baby Arrows tonight: they are taking, for Arrow, a realistic time to learn; they haven't figured out how to work together seamlessly at all; they had a vote before heading out; and they got injured/captured. This is a much better development than the comparatively seamless transitions Team Arrow had after others joined the team.

And loved that Team Baby Arrows both wanted to go back for their teammate - but listened to the people that said, look, not now. Especially since they were carrying a wounded member.

4. Also liked Team Baby Arrows coming to the sad and depressing realization that Oliver had taken it easy on them.

5. My favorite moment of that, though, was when Quentin and Thea realized that Oliver was beating up his recruits, and both of them were like, ok, moving on, whatever. Typical Oliver.

6. The flashbacks continue to have a - gasp - interesting plot! I'm as shocked as everyone here.

7. Liked that both Rory and Felicity got to have a moment, however brief, to continue their discussion about Havenrock - and that we finally got to hear some of Felicity's thoughts on that.  Also liked the acknowledgement that this isn't over yet.

Also liked Oliver defending Felicity's decision to Rory - while immediately accepting Rory's decision to leave.

8. Quentin and Thea continue to have pretty strong scenes together - and I like that here, too, Arrow is acknowledging that Quentin's alcoholism isn't over, and more strongly than with just a few comments from Laurel about always being an alcoholic. 

9. I did find myself laughing when Oliver picked up Felicity's call at Palmer Tech, rather than at least trying to pretend that his phone had been stolen by a thief.  Also liked Felicity's quick comment about lying - showing that this is still a bit of a sore subject with her.

Questionable things:

1. I realize that Star City must be - understandably - having huge issues recruiting district attorneys right now, but I'm still underwhelmed with this one. Telling suspects that the only justice in the city comes from vigilantes is not really the best way to get them to confide.  Also, your idea of a PR problem for Star City is the mayor being missing after a bomb, and not, say, a major earthquake, a supersoldier attack, a virus attack, one of the city's most prominent inventors and businesspeople getting (presumably) blown up, major street fighting, and incoming nuclear missiles? Where have you been, and can we discuss the definition of "actual" PR problem.

2. And the biggest mystery on this season of Arrow continues to deepen: Will Evelyn get a personality? Will she? Will she? At least she contributed to figuring things out this episode and had a few snarky lines, but I need more here, Arrow.

3. So I realize most of the H.I.V.E. members got killed off last year, but seriously, no one noticed that Lyla/Team Arrow quietly took over their various apartments?

4. Ok, I get why Team Baby Arrows and the new DA were tricked into not realizing that the Kord Industries thing was a bomb. What I don't get is how Felicity, Oliver and Quentin all fell for that stunt, or didn't at least try to investigate the box a bit more. I realize that Oliver was a bit distracted with wanting to yell at people and make decisions for them and Felicity was a bit distracted with Rory leaving the team and Oliver making decisions for people, and Quentin's mostly trying to not take a drink, which on this show is understandably hard for him, but still. They've been on this show for several years now. Surely they should be able to recognize obvious traps when they see one - especially now that Oliver is back to his former strategic self.

5. Having said that I liked that Team Baby Arrows had the sense to retreat when told to by Felicity and Quentin, I gotta say, given what we just saw Ragman do, it wasn't at all clear to me why Ragman couldn't have gone back in and rescued Wild Dog on his own, letting Quentin and Evelyn take Curtis to go get medical attention.

6. Yes, I know, super Oliver, but still - you'd think that Palmer Tech would have slightly better security at this point, given how many times it's been targeted. We just watched it get robbed again at the end of last season.

7. Felicity, you've known Oliver for years now. How exactly did you think he would take three newbies telling him not to break into a military prison? Did you want him to break into a military prison, or were you hoping that Team Baby Arrows would start resenting you next?

8. How exactly is Curtis planning on explaining this injury to Paul? Is Curtis planning on explaining anything to Paul? Is Paul about to ask for a divorce? I'm worried here, everyone. Very worried. 

9. I want to ask just how Lyla managed to swoop up Diggle into a plane with just that harness, but I'm afraid to.

10. But I will ask this: molecular destabilizer, show? Molecular destabilizer? Having just said, oooh, Ragman, cool, I realize how hypocritical I'm being here, but can that possibly go over to Flash or Legends of Tomorrow and stay there? 

[BkWurm1]

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Either way, at least Diggle is now out of prison, but he's a fugitive now, and in hiding, so he still won't be joining the team again anytime soon.  I hope they speed this up, because I'm missing with him on Team Arrow, especially with Felicity.  And I really want to see his reaction to the newbies.

Why wouldn't he join the team soon?  They all wear a mask in the field anyway.  Can't go home or out in public where he could be spotted but sure, crime fighting should be fine.  

Quote

. Ok, I get why Team Baby Arrows and the new DA were tricked into not realizing that the Kord Industries thing was a bomb. What I don't get is how Felicity, Oliver and Quentin all fell for that stunt, or didn't at least try to investigate the box a bit more. I realize that Oliver was a bit distracted with wanting to yell at people and make decisions for them and Felicity was a bit distracted with Rory leaving the team and Oliver making decisions for people, and Quentin's mostly trying to not take a drink, which on this show is understandably hard for him, but still. They've been on this show for several years now. Surely they should be able to recognize obvious traps when they see one - especially now that Oliver is back to his former strategic self.

I think you answered your own question, they all were distracted and scattered.  Normally Felicity the girl that hates puzzles would have been all over the question of why Church would steal something so common place but she was barely listening to what Curtis was saying.  So yeah, they all have the experience, but they are human enough to make mistakes when their head isn't all there.  

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6. Yes, I know, super Oliver, but still - you'd think that Palmer Tech would have slightly better security at this point, given how many times it's been targeted. We just watched it get robbed again at the end of last season.

Speaking of Palmer Tech, so Curtis quit cause they fired Felicity. Love the solidarity but HOW ARE THESE PEOPLE GETTING PAID!!

Maybe he's living off of hubby Paul's salary?  

 

Quote

7. Felicity, you've known Oliver for years now. How exactly did you think he would take three newbies telling him not to break into a military prison? Did you want him to break into a military prison, or were you hoping that Team Baby Arrows would start resenting you next?

The only thing I can think of is that in the past when Oliver was being really dumb, if the WHOLE team stood up to him, he usually backed down.  But that was when the whole team was his best bro, the woman he loved and his sister.  Yes Laurel was there too but we all know he'd just ignore her.  

So maybe Felicity thought if he heard it from the rest of the team his plan was bad, he'd pause and reconsider but yeah, giving the ultimatum and trying to physically attack was beyond insane and there is no way I could accept that Felicity had anything to do with that stuff.  I buy she sent them there to show their united disapproval, but I don't think she expected it to be expressed like that.   

Side nitpick.  I was fine with Felicity being against the plan to turn John into a fugitive when he didn't even want to be broken out, but it is beyond dumb to write that part of her objection to the plan has to do with all the laws they'd be breaking.  I mean seriously?  WTH? 

[tarotx]

I like the episode though there wasn't a lot of contrast in color, setting or mood. I liked the intertwining scenes both the present to flashbacks and the Oliver&Diggle escape and the Newbies rescuing the task force. Wilddog is annoying. He's just way too frustrated and eager.  Curtis makes his jokes and I guess that's to change the vibe but I just think he shouldn't be in the field. Ever. Also, I'm going to hate his fights because his stunt double seems larger. I like Artemis better than Baby Canary but I just think they added her because there were  comments about killing women and replacing them with penises. She seems sweet but disposable.  

I really like Rory though I keeping thinking EBR was saying Roy and then she was talking about Roy so yeah. I really enjoyed the "POVs: and the talk between Felicity and Rory.

I even get why Felicity was all over the place in the Diggle debate because she was upset that Oliver was risking without talking to the team, She was said that Oliver was making decisions for Diggle and she was understanding Diggle's mindset.

Also, it felt weird that Lyla was on the other end of the coms. It just was off for Felicity not to be with Oliver and Diggle. Even though Oliver has gone it alone and so has Diggle. I don't know it felt off. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by tarotx

[quarks]

Bad things:

1. Team Baby Arrows just happened to confront Oliver at the exact same place that covered last year's Evil Hidden Underground Dome? Talk about Amazing Coincidences. Also an Amazing Coincidence: Oliver and Diggle emerging from a military jail in the exact same spot where Team Legends fought some Russians last year (why that wasn't used as the exterior for the Russian jail, to maintain some coherency between the shows, I can't explain) as Lyla drove right up to the same place that Flash drove up to just a couple episodes back - also used by Supergirl.

2. In another series of amazing coincidences, Russia is apparently using the same jail that the boring people in last year's flashbacks used, and the U.S. military is apparently using the same jail that Star City kept Damien Darhk in, which also uses some of the same corridors that ARGUS uses, and Diggle and Oliver took one amazing sidetrack to the Central City sewers during their escape (which to be fair looked amazingly like some of the underground tunnels of Star City), and Palmer Tech is holding onto many of the Star Labs props, and that's before I get into the issues with the interrogation room, which we have now seen on three separate shows and never need to see again, or the way Team Baby Arrows and Tobias Church decided to have a major hallway fight in a corridor Legends of Tomorrow last year used for one of the few hospital sequences that didn't take place in Arrow/Flash's solitary hospital room.

Look, shows, I know you all film on a tight budget in more or less the same locations, but Vancouver is a big city. Try exploring it. Really! IT COULD BE FUN!

3. Also awfully convenient: just how empty that military jail was, making it remarkably easy for Oliver to just wander around. And here I thought we had extras again, show. 

4. Evidence cop dude: are you really trying to tell us that in five years on this show, no one has tampered with the evidence? No one? On this show? We even know this isn't true - it was mentioned in the first, second and third seasons, and I think Laurel brought it up briefly last year. And that's just normal people tampering with the evidence, not counting metahumans, H.I.V.E. people and ARGUS people. Of course Quentin and the D.A. were questioning your competence. I mean, it also was a convenient plot point to keep characters we know about near a bomb, but, still.

5. Look, Lyla and Oliver. I get that you want Diggle out of prison, but apart from the minor fact that he didn't actually want to leave prison, one of you is still involved enough in ARGUS that you can commandeer an airplane, and the other one of you is a mayor. Surely you could have tried the conventional routes of, say, calling the president and seeing if some sort of pardon could be arranged? Or, alternatively, tried - I dunno - getting Diggle off legally, given that he wasn't actually guilty of the crime he's accused of? 

I realize, of course, that bringing that up could have brought up a lot of other issues (like the number of people in either Iron Heights or the Star Labs prisons who have apparently not had a regular trial THANKS BARRY YOU SUCK, for instance), but at the very least, a quick mention of Guantanamo or something to explain why the legal method might have issues might have been appropriate here, to explain why you both went to PRISON BREAK instead of legal methods.

Granted, you were both trained by Amanda Waller, so, I guess that sorta explains matters.

6. Except not entirely. One reason you went the prison break route was because Diggle was uncooperative, because he was suffering from hallucinations, depression and guilt. So, again, maybe the best bet here is to try to get a psych evaluation so he will cooperate, rather than have the mayor missing for a couple of days and risking the chance of someone at ARGUS realizing that their plane and their director vanished at the same time?

7. Biggest issue: and once again, we're back to Oliver, and, to a lesser extent Lyla, making decisions for other people - in this case, made worse because the other people were all, UM NO. Even if Diggle seemed happy at the end. He's still on the run; Felicity had a point about that, and about how this is not the easiest life, although I guess if he's working for Team Arrow he'll at least have some sort of job. 

8. Though, Diggle, going to jail for a crime you didn't commit is not exactly the best way to pay for the crime you did commit.

9. Look, Felicity, I usually like you, but right now, you work as a vigilante. Your job is to guide people as they run around breaking into buildings and beating people up and shooting them with arrows. You are in no position to be criticizing other people for running around breaking into buildings, even federal prisons.

This show. This show. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by quarks

[Delphi]

Okay, so I’m doing something sort of different and posting my thoughts before I read the rest of the thread.   Sorry, I hate doing this but I’ve realized you guys in a way influence my thoughts of the episode and make me change my opinions in not always great ways.

First thing is first, despite these thoughts not being in order.  Mr.  Terrific, wow.  I thought they were actually going to kill him; I’m a Joss survivor after all.  But since they didn’t:  How about you go home Curtis and tell your fucking husband what the hell you’re doing.  All this secret and trust talk and poor Paul doesn’t even know that he might wake up one morning a widower.

I am adapting to the newbies, not sure I really like them all that much except for Rory, who is adorable, but I’m adapting.  This sounds stupid, and I know that Colton is busy and probably glad to not be stuck in Canada but really Roy was better.  And I know Thea is having a bomb ass time being Chief of Staff and all that whatever, but whatever Thea.  Get your ass in gear and in suit and go help these very green vigilantes so they don’t get stabbed in the back or kidnapped and tasered.  You don’t have to make it a regular thing; there are plenty of partially retired superheroes.  She could have made a difference out there and should have.

I also understand that Lance’s and Laurel’s scenes were some of the best scenes in the past.  Katie shined brightest when she was working with Paul and I always bought their relationship in a real way but no, I don’t need Thea replacing Laurel as Lance’s daughter.  Sure they that was a good scene.  But Quinton still has Sara, she’s travelling not dead (anymore).

I thought Lyla was being kind of a bitch to Felicity, like, sorry that she doesn’t want break a guy out of military prison without his consent.  Not a big deal.  Sure it doesn’t make sense that Dig would want to be in prison, but it also doesn’t make any sense that Lyla as director of ARGUS wouldn’t get Dig released or transferred to Task Force X or whatever.  Pull strings Harbinger, don’t come down into someone else’s secret lair and be that c word that as a guy I can’t use.

All and all it was kind of boring, but engaging.  I dunno.  I like episodes where things are slightly subdued.  It was a really good character episode, actually.  Felicity and Rory scenes, golden.  I really enjoyed that after  Rene got taken Rory kind of realized that Havenrock was not an easy choice and that no choices in this vigilante life are easy.

[popgoesculture]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver's break in was dull.  Usually I love the break ins but It was just Oliver running around and we all knew he wasn't going to get caught, not really.  And the scenes were just bland to look at.  Those awful yellow walls looked so fake.  Not a fan of Oliver without his team.  I've never enjoyed him alone so I shouldn't be surprised.

THE WALLS LOOKED TERRIBLE! Okay, I couldn't resist the caps, but the production value on the sets was SO bad. Like tremendously "we just painted this a random yellow" bad. Usually I give Arrow a pass on the ubiquitous warehouse that seems to jump from Star City, to Central, and now National City, but this was so glaringly bad that it kept making me laugh.... which is good because I also found this episode really boring? Like the Dig/Oliver/Lyla stuff was ridiculous, and I still find it hard to believe that Lyla wouldn't have some bureaucratic way of clearing him through Argus.

Also now suddenly John's all "Oliver, never change"? Really? I don't know what the show wants/is trying to do. It feels like it's trying a different tactic with characterization each week, and it's all so frustrating... but I think I also hit the wall with my patience with it. I find it hard to care about almost everyone on the show. The only thing I enjoyed tonight was Felicity and Rory's connection. I thought they did a great job of talking with one another, and kudos to the actors for really bringing something to their scenes.

I wish I could say that I still see the connection between Oliver and Felicity, but I was mainly annoyed with him because it was a stupid plan, complete with the dumb spray to get him conveniently out. I kind of just want her to leave the team/start her own team/move away, get a spinoff, and make Felicity and Friends a real thing, because that's the show I want. 

[catrox14]

Gosh, do I ever adore my BrOTP . Oliver and John rock my socks. They are so great together. I just feel like SA comes alive around DR like he does with EBR and even Paul Blackthorne.

Still fucking pissed about Baby Sara. Fuck you writers for that.

I actually really like all the Russia flashbacks and SA looks like he's having a lot of fun playing that part of Oliver's life.

Edited October 27, 2016 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

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Also now suddenly John's all "Oliver, never change"? Really? I don't know what the show wants/is trying to do. 

Yeah, that line gave me pause as well.  Was it just a throw away line that basically translated to "I love you man." or something meta to the audience that no, Oliver isn't going to grow and mature anymore, which makes no sense but fits the confusion i have with what message the promos and producers are trying to send.

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

 

9. Look, Felicity, I usually like you, but right now, you work as a vigilante. Your job is to guide people as they run around breaking into buildings and beating people up and shooting them with arrows. You are in no position to be criticizing other people for running around breaking into buildings, even federal prisons.

This show. This show. 

To be fair, I can understand why one wouldn't want to break into a military prison considering the guards are most likely military personnel who've fought for the country and shouldn't have been harmed by Oliver or any of the team. 

[BkWurm1]

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

To be fair, I can understand why one wouldn't want to break into a military prison considering the guards are most likely military personnel who've fought for the country and shouldn't have been harmed by Oliver or any of the team. 

At least he used tranqs this time.  

[Password]

That was such a mixed bag for me. 

I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't care for ragman. Wild Dog is now an irritation and will probably get someone killed, Evelyn is just... there, Curtis should park it next to Felicity. The rags make me LAUGH. I just cannot with them. Like when he was blocking the bullets... What was that? 

Felicity and her snazzy reasoning skills this episode. I always have to remind myself that writers often do ridiculous things to move the story forward, but letting John sit in jail as penance? Felicity. Also, not agreeing to break him out because felonies. FELICITY. I do think she was using Diggle thinking he's paying for his sins as a way to pay for her own sins, which was nice. But still, so dumb. 

Grrrr Oliver and being stubborn and lone wolf. I actually enjoyed the prison break out with Diggle, but why did Diggle tell Oliver not to change? That was very dumb and I don't like it. 

This episode really reminded me that I love OTA and enjoy them working well together. I miss them, bring them back. 

Finally I'll also say I don't like how entwined Rory and Felicity's story is. Felicity was 2 seconds away from being just as comforting as she is towards Oliver and I don't want that. Who is ever there for JUST Felicity? John's story always felt like John's story, whereas this is like a duo. 

I hope episode 5 brings something else to the table mxm. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Password

[bijoux]

Thanks for playing, Rene, Evelyn and Curtis, you can go home now. Rory, I want to keep. He actually has sensible scenes with both Oliver and Felicity, and brings something to the table in respect of both skills on the field and character.

How long will we have to watch Wild Dog being housebroken? It's really not interesting, and I doubt it'll stick. He doesn't give a shit all about the team, which the opening scene displayed nicely. The only reason I see why they're keeping him around is for Dig returning to the bunker, so that he'll be able to influence him like he wasn't able to influence Andy. I see that as Dig's penance. To which I have to say, I feel for you, man.

I hope the plan didn't end with stashing Dig in the bunker, to get conjugal visits and hit the streets as Spartan, and that they'll be working on proving his innocence. Even if it's off screen and they just announce it later in the season.

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I thought the ep was boring, but also liked it? 

I liked the Felicity and Rory stuff a lot - I love the way they handled it. Still hoping there's more for her with Havenrock, but...not holding my breath. Also kind of LOLing at all the discussion about an anti-Felicity POV and there wasn't one? 

Felicity was actually giving an anti-Felicity POV here as far as I could tell.

5 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I thought it was funny that Thea's using gout as an excuse for Oliver's lateness. She's definitely his little sister. 

I am all for her sticking with those types of cover stories. They provide me with decent laughs.

5 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I wasn't really paying attention to the jail break. Did they ever show Oliver doing something with that guard's ball, or did he just take it to be a jerk?

It was nothing. I kept expecting him to use the ball somehow as well, this just felt weird and Tony Stark adjecent and that's just wrong.

4 hours ago, Sunshine said:

I like the fact that the baby vigilantes realized Oliver was taking it easy on them in training!

This is all I wanted, even if I had a somewhat different set up in mind.

[patchwork]

I'm very disappointed with the lack of anything for Evelyn. Rory naturally gets screentime because of Heavenrock and it's a two for one because it also gives Felicity something to do. Curtis has been around for a while so he doesn't really need to be fleshed out character-wise and of all the newbies he's the one who seems to be less suited to working the streets. Rene's discipline problem is very obvious and and an easy thing to write about but The Girl doesn't even get a training sequence where Oliver is teaching her the bow let alone a character arc of her own. 

Young Justice's Artemis was one of my favourite characters so I feel sort of robbed that they've given her codename to a new character just to do absolutely nothing with her. 

Even though Olicity isn't being given the OTP writing treatment right now I'm glad the producers, and probably actors too, know a lingering glance, standing a little too close can go a long way. 

[SleepDeprived]

I understand now why the dummy writer's room decided to use flashpoint to change Baby Sara to John, Jr. Because after this episode, Diggle will no longer be able to have any children. That must've been a helluva wedgie Digg had to deal with after getting abruptly yanked onto a plane going as fast as that was. Which, I still don't understand how Oliver and Lyla managed to pull that off. I'm just going to chalk it up to 'arrow-to-the-moon' and 'inverting-the-horizon' Science! that the show loves to do. Anyway, RIP Diggle's nuts.

Also, if that anti-molecular compound spray destabilizes/disintegrates molecules, how come Oliver was able to make a perfectly circular cut of the floor in Diggle's cell? It's in an aerosol spray bottle. The nature of which is to dispense the liquid particles as a mist. Ergo, the liquid particles would have been all over the floor and the cement should have crumbled down instead of dropping down as a perfect circle. They should've put it in, like, a medicine dropper or turkey baster thing so Oliver can make his perfect circle. I understand that this is kind of a weird thing to think about in an obviously things happen because the plot needs it to episode but these are the inconsequential things that I can't help but think about, Arrow!

Anyway, this episode wasn't anything special. I enjoyed parts of it but also found other parts unremarkable.

Lyla, who is usually a very lovely presence, came off really cold to Felicity in the beginning. Didn't like that. Thought Lyla and Oliver's plan was dumb but then again, I think Diggle's plan to stay in prison is also dumb. As much as I like the Oliver/Diggle bromance moments. It's just... It's very whiplash-y that Digg was all PTSD-leave-me-to-rot the last time Lyla was at the prison pleading for him to fight on behalf of their family, then suddenly he's all grateful and thanks for getting me out of there-never change, bro after Oliver's you're my brother-my stubbornness trumps your choices pep talk.

Rory continues to be the best boob. I really like his dynamic with Felicity. I hope they use him well in exploring the Havenrock guilt that Felicity is still dealing with (and the pain that he's, also, dealing with) and mine their connection to each other. I like Rory and Felicity's budding teammate-ship more than any of the other boobs. And his little quips about Oliver/the team continues to make me laugh.

It's kind of a 'meh' C-plot but I do like how the show is handling Lance's struggle with alcoholism and that Thea is trying to be there for him. It really helps that PB is able to actually convey being a recovering alcoholic past just lip service. The DA is pretty to look at but still just there. Chad L. Coleman's a really good actor and I do like what he's doing with Church. The thug mentioned something about a "Trust" during his interrogation that DA Chase and the ACU wouldn't be able to stop. Is that the name of Church's "Undertaking"?

Make me care about Wild Dog, Show! And Evelyn! And why Curtis is on the team! Do something about those 3 because they are snoozeville to me. And whoever reads fanfic in the writer's room needs to stop making Wild Dog call Felicity "Blondie." Roy can get away with doing that in fics because it's usually said with affection/teasingly. But Rene is too much of a cocky boob (heh) that I feel like he's being very dismissive and mocking her whenever he uses that nickname for Felicity.

[doesntworkonwood]

I hate Wild Dog so much. At the end of the episode I was hoping Church would kill him. Honestly he's not just stubborn and selfish, he's also incredibly rude and that's the worst. How difficult is it to be polite or at least civil? They're not going to redeem his character for me. 

At least Evelyn had more lines this week, though still no personality. 

[looptab]

First things first: how the hell did Oliver and Dig get out of there? How?

Agree with those who found it good but kinda boring. Why didn't Oliver tell Felicity they were planning on breaking Dig out of jail, if he thought she would be a help? Am I to infere he actually knew she would disapprove? Also, it was so strange that Felicity didn't take part in the prison break. Even though she disagreed with them, I would have thought she'd help, once it was clear that they were going to go ahead with it anyway. But I did like her scenes with Rory, so I forgive you, show, for not giving me an OTA caper.

Rory is my favourite. I like him, and I don't even pay attention to the squeaky voice. I didn't notice until @dtissagirl called him chipmunk, haha.

I do love that Thea  introduces herself as Oliver's chief of staff rather than his sister.

9 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I think we traded Involuntary Constipated Face + Involuntary NOTP Face for a brand new disease called Involuntary Heart Eyes Face.

This is 1000 times better :)

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

As for Wild Dong,

LOL

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I liked Cutty on The Wire, so I'm cool with Church sticking around for a while. But poor Rene! I hope he has the fortitude not to spill anything. If he makes it through, he really needs to quit calling Felicity Blondie. She shouldn't have to keep telling him not to call her that. So rude.

Oliver has the gout? Really, Thea? You couldn't have come up with something more reasonable like the flu or strep throat or food poisoning?

Edited October 27, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dtissagirl]

5 hours ago, Password said:

The rags make me LAUGH. I just cannot with them. Like when he was blocking the bullets... What was that?

Never in my life I thought I would be watching a show with tentacle porn. Arrow for once exceeding one's life expectations.

1 hour ago, looptab said:

Rory is my favourite. I like him, and I don't even pay attention to the squeaky voice. I didn't notice until @dtissagirl called him chipmunk, haha.

If they put Rory and Mayo in a scene with Oliver, we'll be watching a brand new show called Arrow and the Chipmunks.

Edited October 27, 2016 by dtissagirl

[RussianRoulette]

I didn't quite enjoy this episode. It wasn't bad bad but it was pretty boring. 

I realized that I actually didn't care much for the merry band of boobies. I pretty much lost interest in them one episode ago.

They can keep Rory though and his tentacles. He's the only one I enjoyed.

Also, and not to sound like a broken record but, I hate that rude, arrogant, hotheaded thug. I was rooting for Church to kill Wild Dog. He is insufferable. There is also too much Curtis for me. Unfortunately I never enjoyed his character so yeah, go away! 

Is that the end of Felicity's Havenrock storyline? If so, it not very satisfying (not that I am surprised or anything). Of course it would end up being all about Ragman's pain. I did however enjoy their scenes. 

To be honest, I didn't really like how Felicity was written or her different interactions. Lyla's reaction to Felicity was pretty OOC even though I do understand that she was stressed out and wanted her husband home. On that topic, isn't she the head of ARGUS? Why would she need Oliver and his magical hairspray given that she can have a plane fly over and, I assume, access to plenty other resources? Inconsistencies, inconsistencies, lalalalala, whatever show.

On a shallow note, I do not like Felicity's shorter ponytail. It looks kinda weird.

Edited October 27, 2016 by RussianRoulette

[tv echo]

Maybe I've just been in a bad mood lately, but I'm going to be harsh...

I expected and wanted to love this episode, but instead I was disappointed and even a little angry. As usual, the storylines were rushed and recycled, the dialogue was stilted and at times laughable ("penance" 3x, "impossible choice" 1x, "impossible decision" 1x), and Felicity was thrown under the bus (again) to serve the plot and prop up Oliver.

Oliver and Lyla want to break Diggle out of prison. Felicity objects because that would make Diggle a fugitive on the run and because it's Diggle's choice. Period. That's it. Felicity is made to look uncaring about Diggle's fate. Oliver gets to play the hero and save Diggle from himself. The show needed Felicity to stay behind for the B story with the newbies. The show needed to show how far Oliver will go to save his best friend. The show needed Diggle back with the team in one episode. They could've fixed this easily by adding one line of dialogue and have Felicity say something like, "We can figure out another way to get Diggle out by clearing his name." After all, between her hacking skills, Oliver's "interrogation" skills and Lyla's ARGUS resources, they should've easily been able to expose the military commander's corruption and framing of Diggle. So even if they still went ahead with the prison break, Felicity wouldn't have been thrown under the bus. But instead, Felicity is made to look like she's content to have Diggle rot in prison for a crime he didn't commit.

The show also contradicted itself both within this episode and with past seasons. How many times in the past has Oliver been told to let other people make their own choices (How many characters on the show have said, "It's my life, my choice."). Yet in this episode, he comes across as justified in disregarding Diggle's choice about his own life.  Even though Felicity is made to spout the company line about "it's his choice," she ends up looking in the wrong here. Also, despite his four-year journey toward change and evolving his character, Oliver is told by Diggle to not change and this episode justifies Oliver doing what he's been criticized for doing in the past. Also, within this same episode where Oliver disregards Diggle's choice, the recruits are allowed tmake their own choice to risk their lives on a field mission. And Rory's conflict is about making his own choice about his own life. Also, in this episode, Felicity complains expresses concern about Oliver committing multiple felonies.  Yet she has never before been shown to care about breaking the law to help Oliver and Team Arrow (she's their hacker!). See? Confusing and contradictory.

Sometimes it seems like the writers are intentionally trying to destroy Felicity's character and popularity.

Oh - and then there was Oliver's cringe-inducing use of the words "impossible choice" to describe Felicity's Havenrock decision.  Those were almost the same words used to justify Oliver's ridiculous decision last season to keep his son a secret from his fiance (to keep his promise to Samantha? to protect his son? whatever). (415 - Felicity: "I know the position Samantha put you in, I know it was an impossible decision.") It's almost like the writers are throwing shade at fans who complained about the BMD. As has been discussed to death in this forum, Oliver did not have an impossible choice when it came to lying to Felicity, whereas Felicity did have an impossible choice when it came to diverting the nuke. It's a false equivalency.

As for recycled plots, Curtis' transformation into superhero is clearly following the Laurel/BC trajectory where he gets beat up for a few episodes before magically becoming this expert fighter who will be able to defeat lifelong trained assassins. Also, that airplane liftaway rescue of Oliver and Diggle was clearly copied from the Nolan Batman movie.

Both the Diggle 'conflict' and the Rory 'conflict' were rushed. After initial token resistance, Diggle caves in to Oliver's brief lines of dialogue (when he didn't even listen to Lyla's pleas). Similarly, Rory quickly changes his mind after a few lines of dialogue from Felicity. To be clear, I understand and don't object that Diggle went along with the rescue to prevent Oliver from being imprisoned with him and that Rory decided to help the team for the greater good. But Diggle should've remained pissed at Oliver for at least a little while for disregarding his choice. Even if we disagree with Diggle and believe that he's operating from a dark place of guilt and that Oliver was right in saving him from himself, Diggle recovered really quickly. (So I guess Oliver has more influence with Diggle than his wife.) Similarly, Rory should've remained uncomfortable being around Felicity for at least a few episodes. Instead, by the end of this episode, it was like magic - everyone is all cozy and friendly again.

I enjoyed the first three episodes of this season but this fourth episode exposed an increasing problem for me. Like last season's repetitive team-fighting-ghosts scenes, the fights this season are starting to bore me (slo-mo! flare!).  By overcompensating on the stunts and action, Arrow is now under-developing the emotional beats and character/relationship developments. As a result, I am left cold by the end of the episode and feeling increasingly detached from the characters and the show.

Edited October 27, 2016 by tv echo

[Chaser]

The episode felt disjointed and too plotty, but I don't really get the whole throwing Felicity under the bus thing...

[paigow]

Tobias is the PG version of Negan...

[dtissagirl]

29 minutes ago, Chaser said:

The episode felt disjointed and too plotty, but I don't really get the whole throwing Felicity under the bus thing...

I don't think she was thrown under the bus. I do think at the start of the episode she was made to suffer from the Plot-Driven Disease*, but as soon as I realized they wanted her out of the Dig plot so she could have her Rory/Havenrock plot, I got over it**.

* And on this show, because it is hilariously written, it always sorta feels like we in the audience are being gaslighted by the writers via bad/weird characterization. Because we're always made to pause, and wonder if we're crazy for thinking that character would never do that. It's always the same. It's Thea and flip-flopping on her stance re: lies for baby mama plot. It's Oliver not doing anything for two full episodes while knowing Malcolm told him he knew about the kid. It's Felicity in this episode suddenly super concerned about breaking the law. It's Laurel's entire existence, post-death included.

** The only way I can watch this show is acknowledging whatever plot-driven beat they throw at my head, and immediately rationalizing it as "BECAUSE PLOT!", and moving on.

[apinknightmare]

33 minutes ago, Chaser said:

The episode felt disjointed and too plotty, but I don't really get the whole throwing Felicity under the bus thing...

Yeah, I don't think she was thrown under the bus. She was right - it is a stupid plan, so I don't mind her being against it (I'm sure Digg's gonna LOVE living in HIVE HQ). I do wish that instead of the "his choice" thing she'd gone with, "Uh, why don't we try to clear his name because there are some pretty bad dudes getting away with some pretty bad stuff?" 

The fact that no one mentioned actually trying to clear his name drives me nuts. Even though I'm sure that's a longer arc for Diggle so they couldn't address it now, all Lyla would've had to have said was, "He's not in a good place right now, I want him out immediately," or something along those lines. That no one thought of that? Come on. 

[diebartdie]

I came here hoping someone could explain to me how the plane lift out of the prison worked because I seriously did not understand that. Only other thing I came here to say is....Wild Dog sucks and I hope he just dies also, while enjoy Ragman, I cant understand a word out of his mouth. I guess I'm finally of an age where vocal fuckery like that is not something I can easily discern so I hope he never says anything important.

[Guest]

I don't know how I feel about this episode. Some parts were enjoyable but on the whole it felt a bit messy? IDK, it just felt really disjointed for some reason.

I'm kind of sick of this show writing for plot and not character and that's what they did to Felicity here. Again. Quelle surprise. She was absolutely right about Diggle being a fugitive now but her argument would've been better if she hadn't mentioned all the felonies they were committing. Hello, you work in the vigilante business. All you do is commit felonies. But the only reason they did this was because they didn't want Felicity in the prison break storyline, she needed to be with Rory etc...Plot plot plot.

And I'm sorry but Lyla was a bit of a bitch to Felicity at the beginning with her "Is she gonna be a problem?" attitude. I know she wanted her husband back but the plan was DUMB and Diggle is still not free. Idiots.

Also didn't like that Oliver was expecting Felicity to help them but didn't even tell her about the plan. Still lying and holding things back. As Diggle said, don't change, Oliver. Because clearly you don't want to.

And another thing, IDK what it is but I didn't really like Oliver in this episode. His attitude was off and I'm not really getting much from him emotionally. He just fights and broods and never smiles and that's basically it. If I wanted to watch s1 Oliver, I'd watch s1 again. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

As for the Felicity/Roy Havenrock storyline, I really liked their scenes together. The one where she goes to talk to him and ask for his help was pretty emotional actually. And I really like Rory. He's the best of the new characters. But I still didn't like how much of the storyline was focused around Rory and his feelings. When are we going to get a more fleshed out Felicity POV? IDK, it felt lacking. Something was missing. 

I also didn't like how neatly it was all wrapped up. I hope that's not the end of it because

Spoiler

EBR did say Felicity will break down at some point

but I guess I wanted or stupidly expected more. 

As for the other newbies, Curtis is totally useless and is more annoying than anything. Also, his stunt double is so much shorter than EK and it's so noticeable. It totally threw me at the beginning. Evelyn is so wooden and bland and is just kind of there. Plus she's already Artemis which baffles me because it took Felicity and Diggle 4 seasons to earn their codenames. And since when does she use a bow? Did she go to the same magical instant training school as Laurel?

And finally Wild Dog. Meh. I feel like they want him to be misunderstood and there's more going on under the surface but right now he's just coming across like an asshole. I don't like him. I couldn't care less that he got captured by Church. But it seems as if the show is pushing him hard and giving him a lot of focus so I guess I should just get used to it.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Guest

[benteen]

Yes.  If Felicity had made the argument to clear Diggle's name as opposed to breaking him out and becoming a fugitive, I could have totally gotten behind her argument.  But plot means more than characters on this show so that characters motivations have to fit the plot.

[dtissagirl]

Or if Lyla had told them, guys, Dig is hallucinating dead people, we need to get him out of that place RIGHT NOW, clear his name later.

[Primetimer]

It's okay, because he only goes to prison for a good reason, like to bust a friend out or learn a secret IP address.

View the full article

[Guest]

This episode also made me wonder where Thea's storyline is going. So far it seems she doesn't really have much of one tbh. I love that she's not hanging around Malcolm but now she's essentially taking over the Laurel part of scenes with Quentin and IDK...I guess I'm not liking how all the female characters seem to be there only to support the men. I don't like the vibes I'm getting lately. Hmm...We'll see.

[blixie]

Quote

Yeah, I miss Curtis's hair.

Really? I was so glad to see he had braids in, and I love that they are angled (I think?) It's practical and the mask/makeup definitely makes him more "disguised" than Oliver really. I do love Kellum's fro, but I also like that they thought practically about the need to not have his hair snatched in a fight.

I don't know why it only hit me now but MAN that kid playing Rory is an Ezra Miller copy, right down to his lightly lispy delivery. 

I really liked this one, maybe because I'm not really getting The Oliver this season? I love the new team, I love Felicity, I love the Flashbacks for the first time ever, but present day Oliver seems lost in translation. In S1 he murdered and tortured, but he was "damaged", then he went too far the other way to thinking he could never murder/torture even when it was reasonably even richly justified, but now he's just back to murder-torture tactics on the reg, but it's cool cool cool, because he's no much better adjusted emotionally? He can now trust others to murder torture with him? WHAT?

Man this show is so dumb some times. Eh, all the time. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by blixie

[apinknightmare]

Anyone clear on the timing here? Lyla went to Oliver last ep and, what, waited a whole week to break Digg out? Oliver told Felicity about Digg being locked up but not about the plan to break him out, but...it didn't seem as if he was being deliberately secretive about it? 

I drifted in and out of paying attention, and I don't remember how it was all set up-seemed like Oliver not telling Felicity about the plan was a plot contrivance because they wanted the cliffhanger last ep, but couldn't get into the details until this one? 

[quarks]

Right! I forgot to mention my other complaint - who on earth knows IP addresses so well that they can just rattle off the correct numbers to a guy stinking of vodka and wearing a bad wig and an awesome leather jacket? Right! Conveniently terrified Russian guys willing to give up the IP addresses and then die!

And you guys were complaining about the plot contrivances in the rest of the episode. I'm enjoying the flashbacks a lot more this season, but....yeah. 

[tv echo]

After reading some media reviews, I'm actually feeling a little better about this episode - although I still think it has major flaws.

[BadArcher]

Quote

I know that Colton is busy and probably glad to not be stuck in Canada

I'm sorry if you don't like our country, but we like it. ; )

[KirkB]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

8. How exactly is Curtis planning on explaining this injury to Paul? Is Curtis planning on explaining anything to Paul? Is Paul about to ask for a divorce? I'm worried here, everyone. Very worried. 

I was wondering the same thing. Also, does Paul know Curtis isn't working at Palmer Tech anymore? If so, where does he think Curtis goes at night, and does he not wonder why he comes home limping and covered in bruises?

[hogwash]

I know some people don't like JV Team Arrow but I really starting to like them. They all have distinct personalities and skills. I even like Wild Dog and Curtis's constant failure. I just hope Evelyn gets to do more. Rory is clearly the best one, though. I am just happy that Oliver gets a team that actually listens to him. All that we're all equals bullshit from S04 annoyed the crap out of me. Thank god that's over.

[Guest]

The only thing I appreciate with the new characters is that they're taking the time to show them learning and failing and making mistakes, which they haven't really done before. Artemis aside because I don't know how she's an archer all of a sudden. Even Roy was shown having one or two archery lessons in s2.

That being said, I think I've just come to accept that most masked characters will be insta-heroes now. It's just the nature of Arrow.

I'm kind of dreading the amount of masks when Diggle and Thea rejoin the team full time though. So many masks. I know, I know. It's a hero show. But it's a bit OTT.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Guest

[SmallScreenDiva]

13 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I was wondering the same thing. Also, does Paul know Curtis isn't working at Palmer Tech anymore? If so, where does he think Curtis goes at night, and does he not wonder why he comes home limping and covered in bruises?

Paul and Detective Mayo probably sit together in a bar filled with significant others of people who dress up and go to "work" even though they are actually unemployed. 

[arjumand]

2 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't think she was thrown under the bus. I do think at the start of the episode she was made to suffer from the Plot-Driven Disease*, but as soon as I realized they wanted her out of the Dig plot so she could have her Rory/Havenrock plot, I got over it**.

* And on this show, because it is hilariously written, it always sorta feels like we in the audience are being gaslighted by the writers via bad/weird characterization. Because we're always made to pause, and wonder if we're crazy for thinking that character would never do that. It's always the same. It's Thea and flip-flopping on her stance re: lies for baby mama plot. It's Oliver not doing anything for two full episodes while knowing Malcolm told him he knew about the kid. It's Felicity in this episode suddenly super concerned about breaking the law. It's Laurel's entire existence, post-death included.

** The only way I can watch this show is acknowledging whatever plot-driven beat they throw at my head, and immediately rationalizing it as "BECAUSE PLOT!", and moving on.

Yes, absolutely yes to everything, especially what I put in bold.

Felicity in this episode started to remind me of Faith pretending to be Buffy in a Season 4 episode of the show - "You can't do that. Because it's wrong." And like a lot of people, I still can't understand why Diggle couldn't be exonerated, or steps couldn't be taken for that. So, Felicity can hack into anything, redirect nuclear missiles, and put hedgehogs farting on every mobile device that Ray Palmer owns, but she can't fix this trumped up shit. Ok then.

Re. the flashbacks - does 'full member of the Bratva' mean Oliver gets to take a shower? And maybe wash his hair? Because he looks greasier than he ever did on an island without bathrooms.

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Re. the flashbacks - does 'full member of the Bratva' mean Oliver gets to take a shower? And maybe wash his hair? Because he looks greasier than he ever did on an island without bathrooms.

Oh, oh, oh, bath house scenes ala Eastern Promises! I need this, show. And since Wendy said they actually watched Eastern Promises, they already know about nude fighting scenes!

[Soulfire]

A day late with my standard gif spam --