S07.E01: The Day Will Come When You Won't Be

[festivus]

Oh I'm not out, I'm just never watching this episode again. I love horror movies but I don't watch torture porn. If this season is going to be a lot of Negan being the evilest evil that ever eviled then the ff button will be getting quite the workout. I hope it's going to be more about the emotional fallout for the gang and I'm really looking forward to the Carol and Morgan storyline.

[dstranger99]

This premiere went nowhere, they could have wrapped this entire show up in the season 6 finale. Even the commercials lied, showing Ezekiel and the Kingdom. It went nowhere close to that, Ricks group stayed on their knees, and Negan talked the entire time. STFU, your not even all that scary, shove Lucille up your ass....  

[NorthstarATL]

25 minutes ago, Arnella said:

With the introduction of 2 new communities this season (Negan's and Ezekiel's), it occurred to me that this whole series has been the group failing and destroying functioning societies.

Whatever you think of the crazies and dictators running them, Woodbury, the Farm, Terminus, and even Alexandria were functioning well and the people were safe and fed... until our guys show up!

Our sneak peak at the kingdom shows a clean, orderly, peaceful place and Negan's group seem to be healthy and organized Nazis at least.  He is evil but this is still just the beginning of the ZA and Strong Men might be what is needed at first to get infrastructure going and once established, the Strong Men will die eventually or the inhabitants can rebel and form things to THEIR liking.  But no, Rick will just keep steamrolling through them without providing any alternative except joining them jerking around the countryside and no societal progress will be made.

OR our guys are just exposing the weakness/flaw in the system. The best situation we have been shown was actually the prison after the remnants of Woodbury moved in. That was destroyed at least in part by disease from within, but the political/societal structure seemed to be sound. Nothing is perfect, but serfdom and/or slavery is never worth it, and that is what Negan is offering.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Negan talked the entire time. STFU, your not even all that scary, shove Lucille up your ass....  

Exactly. I found just a look from the Governor (even with only one eye) much more intimidating than Negan's endless posturing and  blether.

[scrb]

Think about how sadistic TPTB have been to Maggie.

Killed her father, her sister and now husband.

Yes she's suppose to be a "fighter" which is why she's survived this long.  But now a traumatized mother to be, who was experiencing complications to the pregnancy before this.

What are they going to have her do, neglect the child so she can get her revenge?

Does that mean the timeline for revenge will be at least a couple of years until her baby is old enough to be without the mother?

It's obvious they're going to milk Negan for at least a couple of seasons.

[Giselle]

I hope when they do kill Neegan they shove Lucille down his pie hole just to shut him up. I'd like Morgan to be the one to do it. If every time we see Neegan, and the writers have him expounding on the reason why CDB are still breathing his air or giving a "How Great I Art" sermon, I'm headed to the fridge, or turning the channel to watch something else. I Tivo shows for repetitive crap like this to fast forward through the bullshit.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Giselle

[beaker73]

2 hours ago, bosawks said:

I think the summer hiatus ruined it for me.  I wasn't all that mad about the cliffhanger but it was a long time ago and I've binged on several whole shows since and, without my realizing it, I'd moved on.

Last night was more like just kill them, get it out of the way so we can finally start this season.  It really felt like cleaning up loose ends of the previous season.  Not the reaction I anticipated at all, I was a little disappointed in myself, sorry Glen, sorry Abe I really will miss you.  

I agree with this 100%.  

When they fake killed Glenn last season I was devastated because I wasn't expecting it. It was a kick to the gut.  By ending S6 with a cliffhanger it really lessened the impact of these characters deaths because I spent months thinking about it, talking with other friends who watch it and discussing who we think it would be and why. You couldn't go anywhere on social media without some sort of article or something being posted about it.   By the time last night rolled around I just wanted it to be done.  Not to mention, that while I was actively avoiding spoilers, I (as well as a lot of us here) did see/hear talk that Abe and Glenn were the victims and, so, I was kind of expecting it.  I think that they just should have just killed Abe at the S6 finale and left Glenn as the "surprise" for the premiere.  

All of that being said, I did enjoy the episode.  I thought the cast did a great job of showing their horror and helplessness.  I felt more for them than Abe and Glenn to be honest. I'm just looking forward to see who will eventually take Negan down. 

[Boofish]

43 minutes ago, Arnella said:

With the introduction of 2 new communities this season (Negan's and Ezekiel's), it occurred to me that this whole series has been the group failing and destroying functioning societies.

Whatever you think of the crazies and dictators running them, Woodbury, the Farm, Terminus, and even Alexandria were functioning well and the people were safe and fed... until our guys show up!

Our sneak peak at the kingdom shows a clean, orderly, peaceful place and Negan's group seem to be healthy and organized Nazis at least.  He is evil but this is still just the beginning of the ZA and Strong Men might be what is needed at first to get infrastructure going and once established, the Strong Men will die eventually or the inhabitants can rebel and form things to THEIR liking.  But no, Rick will just keep steamrolling through them without providing any alternative except joining them jerking around the countryside and no societal progress will be made.

Woodbury - they started it by kidnapping Maggie and Glen. Rick and his group were willing to let them be after they got their people back. The Governor came looking for a fight and he got more than he bargained for - not putting that on our group

Farm - There is an argument to be made here. Herschel and his family probably could have survived a lot longer had they not showed up but they would have eventually died if a herd or another group came across the farm. They were on borrowed time

Terminus - They invited people there for the sole purpose of killing them. Not putting this on Rick and his group either because as Rick said "they were fucking with the wrong people" No one told them to put up signs. The Starbucks Night Crew wrote a check their ass couldn't cover and again they got what they deserved

The Hilltop - Again they were invited, stopped an attempted murder, rescued one their people all for some eggs, butter, fresh vegetables and a cow. They were invited because the people at the Hilltop needed someone to beat up a bully for them. I don't think they could have imagined what they were up against and again in my opinion a community like what the Saviors have built need to be destroyed.

The Kingdom - They need people if they are going to defeat Negan. If the Hilltop refuses then they should be on their way but if they want to help I would take all the help I can get

Alexandria - Yeah I got nothing they completed destroyed the place HAHAHAHAHA .. 

[Lamima]

Alexandria was on borrowed time too. They were ill prepared for what is out there. The herd, the Wolves or Negan's group would have decimated them.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Lamima

[valandsend]

3 hours ago, Bad Example said:

Even though I hated seeing Rick broken down and I was genuinely worried about Carl's arm, that little moment with the camera made me more organically angry than all of the Negan stuff.  

I felt the same way too, then remembered that they usually document their kills like this, as seen by the Polaroids tacked on the wall during the raid last season.

[Anosmia]

I can’t fault them for how they ended last season because I saw it as a good old-fashioned cliffhanger. Maybe it wasn’t absolutely necessary, but it did keep people guessing and speculating throughout the summer, and buzz like that is usually a producer’s/network’s wet dream.

I was irritated with the delayed reveal of who was killed, although I’ll admit it helped to ramp up the tension, at least in my head. Negan’s incessant chattering was annoying, too, but as an introvert, I’m always reminded of how many irritatingly chatty people are in this world, and I guess that’s not likely to change after civilization falls.

All in all I found last night’s episode to be satisfying. It was rough viewing…I was sick in the guts while watching it. My stomach was roiling and my legs were literally weak. I cried--something I don't do very often with TV shows. My hand was clamped to my mouth in shock. I tried to hug one of my thoroughly unimpressed cats as an emotional support animal and she was having none of it.

I’m normally not a fan of torture porn, although I did love me some Martyrs/Inside/High Tension, but I can’t say that last night’s torture porn was completely unnecessary. Brutal people do brutal things; we see this with ISIS on a daily basis. In a post-apocalyptic world, brutal people are likely to rise to the top. Was Negan’s sadism REALLY necessary? I don’t know, but it did serve a point in the end, because it helped to bring Rick’s feisty group to heel. I don’t think he could have successfully controlled them if he had behaved in a less sadistic manner. I respect that his actions weren’t straightforward (he didn’t kill Daryl after Daryl punched him; he didn’t cut off Rick’s arm or kill Rick). Instead, they were far more manipulative and thus insidious.

Over the summer I heard that maybe more than one person would die, but I hoped it wasn't true. In fact, when there was that temporary reprieve before Abraham died, I thought that MAYBE nobody was going to die at all. Maybe they were just tricking us with the Season 6 finale and Negan really just slammed Lucille into someone's leg (hence the blood all over her). It would have been a copout and people would have been pissed, but I still kinda hoped that this would be the case, simply because I hate losing leads who I like, even though I know it’s necessary because it’s realistic. In the real world, people I like do die, and that would only be accelerated in a post-apocalyptic setting.  

As to why he didn’t just kill them all…yeah, that would have been realistic. If this were the real world, he undoubtedly would have killed them all. The problem is that we wouldn’t have much of a show if nearly all of the leads had been killed. The show could continue on as Negan’s show, or it could begin focusing on a completely new band of survivors, but I honestly don’t know if it could survive that. I, for one, wouldn’t stick around if the entire lead cast (minus Carol) got slaughtered.

Poor Maggie. Her dad, sister, and now her husband--all killed by humans. It does a nice job of reiterating the show’s ongoing theme: humans are the worst monsters of all. Glenn's "I'll find you"—his dying words—pulled out my heart.

I love that Abraham’s dying words were "suck my nuts." He sure has come a long way from when he took Brenda Walsh to the prom and partied hearty with Mike Seaver.

Re: folks wondering how Negan has found so many people to serve him…I wonder how many of his followers do it for lack of a better option. It seems like every Big Bad has established his own fiefdom, and on top of that there are roving bands of people who won’t hesitate to kill others to get their hands on their weapons/food. Plus there are zombies everywhere. Basically, safety and security are in short supply. I guess I can see why people would opt to follow Negan despite him being so sadistic. He feeds them, he keeps them safe. Eighteen months into the apocalypse, that would seem like a damn fine offer. Maybe many of his followers are sadists, too, or at least lacking a strong moral compass. Like often attracts life. Plus I don’t think we’ve seen him be cruel to his own people—only outsiders. Rick’s group might seem destructive and evil to outsiders, too. We don’t think they’re bad because we’ve been with them from the beginning. If we were following Negan’s group from the beginning, we might not think they’re bad, either. Maybe we wouldn’t think it was such a bad thing if we had seen Rick beat the Governor or Gareth to death with a barbed wire-wrapped baseball bat.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Anosmia

[Boofish]

2 minutes ago, Anosmia said:

 

Re: folks wondering how Negan has found so many people to serve him…I wonder how many of his followers do it for lack of a better option.  

I wondered the same thing last night out loud and my boyfriend made a very good point about sadistic crazy people and their followers but it's political and off topic so moving on .. 

I tell you this - when they showed women in the crowd my mouth slowly uttered "WTF" I know traditional gender roles have no place in the apocalypse and you do what you have to survive I get all that but DAMN. I just couldn't reconcile women standing by watching Joe Cool force Rick to cut his kid's arm off. I hope we get a Kool & The Gang back story because this I have to see 

[valandsend]

Quote

I think the summer hiatus ruined it for me.  I wasn't all that mad about the cliffhanger but it was a long time ago and I've binged on several whole shows since and, without my realizing it, I'd moved on.

Last night was more like just kill them, get it out of the way so we can finally start this season.  It really felt like cleaning up loose ends of the previous season.  Not the reaction I anticipated at all, I was a little disappointed in myself, sorry Glen, sorry Abe I really will miss you.

22 minutes ago, beaker73 said:

I agree with this 100%.  

When they fake killed Glenn last season I was devastated because I wasn't expecting it. It was a kick to the gut.  By ending S6 with a cliffhanger it really lessened the impact of these characters deaths because I spent months thinking about it, talking with other friends who watch it and discussing who we think it would be and why. You couldn't go anywhere on social media without some sort of article or something being posted about it.   By the time last night rolled around I just wanted it to be done.  Not to mention, that while I was actively avoiding spoilers, I (as well as a lot of us here) did see/hear talk that Abe and Glenn were the victims and, so, I was kind of expecting it.  I think that they just should have just killed Abe at the S6 finale and left Glenn as the "surprise" for the premiere. 

This is an interesting reflection of today's viewing habits. Why, in the 1980s, during the days of my youth (said in my best old-man voice), we actually would speculate about what the summer cliffhanger for any given series would be. We expected it, and we liked it! And then, if the cliffhanger was resolved in the first episode of the new season, we considered ourselves lucky. Those were the days ... unless you missed the season finale as it aired or your VCR didn't work, then you'd probably missed it forever.

[RustbeltWriter]

1 hour ago, Evie said:

The worst thing about Negan is the writers so obviously think he's cool. 

I hated the dumpster fakeout last season but was still glad Glenn survived. Now, I wish Glenn had gone out then. At least it would have been about Glenn being Glenn. I'm not against my favorites dying by psycho; Hershel's death gutted me, and he had a good storyline leading up to it. Glenn didn't meet Lucille; the writers made turned the character into a walking fakeout for this death.

Dead on target with this comment. I didn't see anything last night that made me want to see more Negan.

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Rick killing Negan in the RV might have had deadly consequences if Rick came back alone without Negan. His group were unarmed while Saviors had guns and could have easily killed all of them. Unless Rick ran back to Alexandria to gather everyone else for a sneak attack but know that would have taken a whole day to happen and he wouldn't be suspicious by then lol. 

I have the feeling, though, that if you cut off the head of the snake that whole group would fall into chaos.

Side note, Yeun and Cudlitz technically didn't even make season 7 since that was just the continuation of the final scene from season 6. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Dobian

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, Arnella said:

With the introduction of 2 new communities this season (Negan's and Ezekiel's), it occurred to me that this whole series has been the group failing and destroying functioning societies.

Whatever you think of the crazies and dictators running them, Woodbury, the Farm, Terminus, and even Alexandria were functioning well and the people were safe and fed... until our guys show up!

Our sneak peak at the kingdom shows a clean, orderly, peaceful place and Negan's group seem to be healthy and organized Nazis at least.  He is evil but this is still just the beginning of the ZA and Strong Men might be what is needed at first to get infrastructure going and once established, the Strong Men will die eventually or the inhabitants can rebel and form things to THEIR liking.  But no, Rick will just keep steamrolling through them without providing any alternative except joining them jerking around the countryside and no societal progress will be made.

In their defense, the farm was Hershel and his "they're just sick people fuckery; Woodbury was fine until the Guv started bullying people who could fight him back; Alexandria was a ticking time bomb - the wolves were coming, Negan was coming, and that truck in the quarry fell on its own.  Without TF they would all be dead.  The problem was that the show time jumped the nearly a full year that they did in fact turn the prison into a society.  There was a functioning government, school for the kids, plentiful and sustainable food, and real medical care.  But the prison got a perfect storm of a quickly spreading illness, a demented child that created a walker horde, and Guv not letting things go showing back up with weapons of mass destruction.  It's not them, it's their timing.

[frederick]

Please spell Daryl's name correctly.
Only one 'R'

[Ohwell]

25 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Alexandria was on borrowed time too. They were ill prepared for what is out there. The herd, the Wolves or Negan's group would have decimated them.

Well, it could be argued that everyone in the ZA is on borrowed time.  The fact was, though, that the Alexandrians weren't bothering anyone and Rick & Co. came in and fucked things up for them.

[The Mighty Peanut]

1 hour ago, Arnella said:

With the introduction of 2 new communities this season (Negan's and Ezekiel's), it occurred to me that this whole series has been the group failing and destroying functioning societies.

Whatever you think of the crazies and dictators running them, Woodbury, the Farm, Terminus, and even Alexandria were functioning well and the people were safe and fed... until our guys show up!

Our sneak peak at the kingdom shows a clean, orderly, peaceful place and Negan's group seem to be healthy and organized Nazis at least.  He is evil but this is still just the beginning of the ZA and Strong Men might be what is needed at first to get infrastructure going and once established, the Strong Men will die eventually or the inhabitants can rebel and form things to THEIR liking.  But no, Rick will just keep steamrolling through them without providing any alternative except joining them jerking around the countryside and no societal progress will be made.

Oh yeah, that's the CDB prime directive. Find a safe--well, "safe"--haven, add water, destroy. Didn't Hershel call them a curse? 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

 And Glenn didn't even have any last words. 

Truthfully? I'm a horrible person and was glad he didn't. I had enough of his words last season - the culmination being his excessively long and tedious pep talks, Lessons Learned and parables to Enid, even taking the time to stop and speechify heading back to Alexandria when he had no idea if Maggie was dead or alive. Besides that, his out-of-the-blue Lucille-ing (at least it was a surprise for me) made it all the more shocking and horrific.

ETA:

Quote

Didn't Hershel call them a curse? 

I believe he called them a "plague." Heh...

Edited October 24, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Giselle]

50 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Exactly. I found just a look from the Governor (even with only one eye) much more intimidating than Negan's endless posturing and  blether.

Yeah but then the Governor then opened his mouth and used an appalling southern accent. I would just giggle.  Had it been Neegan using that god awful accent my head would be bashed in.

[atiyah9369]

13 hours ago, zibnchy said:

Yes, this. I can't help but wonder why they had to cast LC. She's not all that as an actress and that accent is fingernails on chalkboard for me. Was there no southern american actress who could have played the part? It isn't as if anyone knew who LC was before TWD.

All this does not hold true for AL. He can actually act quite well and his accent is bad but not that bad.

She always sounds like she has a mouth full of rocks.

[dannymoon]

Poor Glenn. Hate the way he died and I couldn't even watch. Nothing against Abe, but his death isn't the same impact. I watched Carl's arm scene through my fingers. Andrew Lincoln's transition to a desperate snotty crying wreck was so well done.

Back in S4 when Lori died, I know Rick felt responsible for her death, understandably. I didn't think he deserved that though, because to me his actions caused her death in such an indirect way. Daryl is going to feel responsible for Glenn's death forever. And that truly sucks, but I can't say it isn't deserved.

Maybe this is just a writing issue (cause ya know, there are just a FEW (cough)), but Negan is causing all this grief because Rick's people murdered his people? And we should believe Negan was just going to leave Alexandria alone, the way it was functioning, prior to Rick's group showing up there? It's not like he wouldn't have known about the community and I don't believe he would just leave any community alone UNTIL he felt threatened by them. He would have staked his claim there already.

Sometimes I re-watch episodes, but I could never give this one a second glance. I don't even think it was a bad episode, just too brutal.

Edited October 24, 2016 by dannymoon

[Dobian]

8 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Truthfully? I'm a horrible person and was glad he didn't. I had enough of his words last season - the culmination being his excessively long and tedious pep talks, Lessons Learned and parables to Enid, even taking the time to stop and speechify heading back to Alexandria when he had no idea if Maggie was dead or alive. Besides that, his out-of-the-blue Lucille-ing (at least it was a surprise for me) made it all the more shocking and horrific.

I obviously missed it, but reading this morning he apparently mouthed "I will find you" to Maggie in a shot before his skull got bashed.  I'll have to re-watch that.

Quote

And we should believe Negan was just going to leave Alexandria alone, the way it was functioning, prior to Rick's group showing up there? It's not like he wouldn't have known about the community and I don't believe he would just leave any community alone UNTIL he felt threatened by them. He would have staked his claim there already.

One of the big suspensions of disbelief is that Negan didn't already know of Alexandria's existence, since it is just a few hours' car ride away.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Dobian

[Iguessnot]

9 hours ago, Richness said:

That was a brutal, difficult episode to get through. It wasn't an enjoyable episode, but it was a good episode despite some scenery chewing and a bit of fluff filler. The cliffhanger didn't bother me, as I don't expect instant payoffs being a child of classic 80's cliffhangers like "Who shot, JR?". The ones who died will allow for a lot of character development and soul searching for those who left.

After seeing the hatchet in the teaser, and the way it was present throughout the episode, I thought for sure they were finally going to fulfill another comic element that hasn't happened in the show. But boy did they sure flipped the script and put that on poor Carl though. That was an excellent way to break Rick. While drawing the line on the arm was a bit over the top, that entire scene had me wanting to not watch further.

By the way, did anyone notice one of Neegan's men taking a Polaroid instant picture of one of the bodies during the slow-mo out of focus shots at the end? DI don't recall if that was Glenn or Abraham, but I thought that was a clever call back to the raid on the observatory.

Also, I thought I saw another hatchet on top of the RV with Rick. But then he went running around looking for the hatchet that Neegan threw on the ground. I suppose the black shape could have been something on the RV, but it looked like a hatchet to me while watching.

There was a hatchet on the top of the RV. I have no idea why or what that was supposed to mean and why Rick didn't pick it up.

[What Fresh Hell]

Eh, I'm glad that clown Abraham is gone, couldn't stand him from day one and am counting the days until his buddy Eugene bites it.  Watching MC on Talking Dead last night about made me vomit with the crotch gestures and lighting that cigar like the worst kind of obnoxious man.

I will miss Glenn, just about the most decent character ever on this show, a kind soul.  I didn't mind the gore, it will keep people from speculating that either character is still alive!

Anyway, Rick was hard core humiliated and should never be the same and that's okay with me as I never thought he was much of a leader anyway.  Negan talks too much and I don't love to hate him, nothing entertaining there.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Anyway, Rick was hard core humiliated and should never be the same

For sure. Call me petty, but I couldn't help thinking that I hope Michonne enjoyed their bedtime antics, because after the big-time neutering Rick got, it ain't going to happen for a very long time, if ever again.

[Ohwell]

Rick needed to see and learn firsthand that he wasn't the baddest, craziest mofo in the ZA, because he had gotten too full of himself.  Too bad that Glenn and Abe had to pay for it.  

[psychoticstate]

First, @Reghan, I am so sorry about your precious kitty.  Losing pets is the worst but I hope you find comfort in knowing that she is running and playing at the Rainbow Bridge.

On to the show.  

I was gutted by Abe and Glenn being killed.  I was spoiled but it was still emotional for me.  I liked Abe and I loved Glenn.   How is the show going to come back from this?  Neegan beating them so horribly, I mean pulverizing them as another poster said . . . it was too much.  It's bad enough when we lose one of them to walkers (Dale and Noah were awful for me) or even a douche like the Governor (Herschel) but this was beyond OTT.  Two healthy and able men beaten to death for shits and giggles and to teach Rick and Daryl who is boss.  

I love Jeffrey Dean Morgan but I cannot stand Neegan.  I don't read the comics but I despise this guy.  I think he would be far more effective if he said very little, just did what he's going to do.   All his talking and explanations . . . ack, I'd be thinking knock me out too so I don't have to listen to your bullshit any longer.

Andrew Lincoln did a kickass job as a shellshocked/PTSD'd Rick but I really want to kick Rick's ass myself right now.  Abe is dead because of Rick.  Glenn is dead because of Daryl.  I would think Daryl would be far more likely to become afraid/obedient/mindfucked because he's being taken away from the group. 

I'll stay in but if this entire season is going to be able Neegan being an ass and preaching about his assholery, I may have to check out.

I agree with all the others who said TWD made a massive tactical error in having the cliffhanger question who died.  They would have been better served to either let us know it was Abe and Glenn at the end, or even just Abe at the end and with Glenn being the shocker for this episode.  

I will never watch this episode again.  

[Scribbles]

7 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

There was a hatchet on the top of the RV. I have no idea why or what that was supposed to mean and why Rick didn't pick it up.

Negan threw Rick's hatchet to the roof.  Rick goes to roof, gets lost in gruesome thoughts and then takes hatchet and jumps to hanging man zombie.  While hanging, Rick dropped the hatchet to the ground.  Thus he finally gets it back after hanging man is stretched too far. 

------------

Rick has wrongly spilled blood on his hands, and he led his group to stain their hands as well.  A huge point in the "Same Boat" episode was to show Maggie and Carol being forced to face the similarities of their situation with the Savior.  Rick repeatedly says "they" all must die, Negan opts for a grand show of one or two being killed to compel compliance from his foes/adversaries. Frankly, as an individual your odds of survival versus Negan facing off with your group are higher than if it is Rick.  All of that is not to suggest Negan is better than Rick.  Frankly, they are both dangerous if you wind up in the group that is in the way of whatever they are seeking at the time.  We can understand why Rick is "not taking any chances" and will simply wipe out whole groups if able, hopefully we don't like that he does.  With Negan, we have not been given a chance to see if we could understand if his "start with one brutal kill for maximum impact" comes from a place we could also understand. Ultimately, they both exihibit the use of justifying the means of murder to accomplish an end.

Another note:

My problem with this episode the source material is not better than what they can do with a film adaptation and they chose too much of the source material.  Thus Negan was a blabber mouth and we got gore for gore's sake.  Usually the book is better than the movie/film.  With the surplus of comic book to film we have these days, we see the exceptions to that general rule of thumb more often.   The more the show follows Kirkman's follies and discards the opportunities it has, the less compelling it is for me.

[LadyMustang65]

13 hours ago, oakville said:

Wouldn't it make more sense for neegan to kill Daryl for punching him than Glenn who was quietly crying?

I apologize if someone has already mentioned this, but I haven't had time to read through all 6 pages.  My two cents' worth - yes, it would make more sense in a retribution kind of way, but in a "let's keep everyone in line" way, what he did makes more sense.  It's one thing to know that if you mess up, you'll die.  You might decide to risk it anyway.  But to know that if you mess up, someone else will die is a very effective deterrent.  You might be willing to accept your own death, but how many would be willing to risk someone else dying (and a very brutal death at that)  for their actions? 

[Scribbles]

3 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

 

I love Jeffrey Dean Morgan but I cannot stand Neegan.  I don't read the comics but I despise this guy.  I think he would be far more effective if he said very little, just did what he's going to do.   All his talking and explanations . . . ack, I'd be thinking knock me out too so I don't have to listen to your bullshit any longer.

JDM did great playing out awful writing.  The issue is that you saw the comics, not what could have been had they taken the idea and adapted it for compelling TV.

[kj4ever]

So I'm not a doctor but Riddle Me This PTV...If someone gets hit hard enough to knock their eyeball out IRL wouldn't they be like unconscious? 

Gonna be big man pain episode coming since Daryl basically led Glenn to his death....twice.

[Giselle]

I haven't read the comics. The TV show interested me as it allowed me to watch how people react and adapt in a new world. I could care less about the gore.

Neegan is very one note.  His breaking of Rick was interesting but he's already one and done with me. He can't "scare us" by his depravity any more. What cut Maggie's baby out, roast it on a spit and eat it with ketchup a 'la shades of Terminus? Please. Turn Daryl into a "Game of Thrones" Reek? Saw it already. With the way the writers set Neegan's character up and scripted his first screen scene any type of future character growth or withering is a non starter or isn't plausible or more of the same old same old. I will more than likely tune him out. As far as his bad ass depravity, like Hanibal Lecter, after a while it's just another body to add to the count and the way it gets there is meh, Glenn's scalp hanging off of Lucille... so what.... we've seen a variation of it before for the past several seasons and we've seen puddles of head goo the entire series.

 I'm getting a whiff of a shark in the water and a series ready to jump. We'll see.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Giselle
clarity?

[phoenix780]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

And naturally being the grade-school gore-boys that they are, TPTB had to slip in the footage of the other characters getting banged in the head. Totally superfluous.

But it was arts-y, and it proves that it really could've been any of them (since they seem to have filmed it).  

I have to give it up, after a night I'm still thinking about the episode, and I can't get Glenn's face out of my head.  I have no emotion about it, but it is stuck in my head.  So...there's that.

As far as the story itself, I keep coming back to the thought that this reminds me of Days of Our Lives in the 90s.  Stuff was drawn out to the point where you weren't sure if a conclusion was good or you were just relieved it was over, it wasn't always logical, flashbacks/monologues were used to fill time, and they relied on viewer memory of things as much as actually showing it (when was the last time we really saw Glenn/Maggie interact, yet they milked audience emotions about it for years).  I guess my point here is I'm in a bad spot as a viewer because I'm thinking more about story structure than immersing myself in it, but the episode was a strange mix of major plot points and nothing happening, imho.  Some of this is my fault for being a message board kinda viewer.  And some is the writers', because at this point they're the most interesting antagonists our poor heroes face.  I wonder more about their motives that Negan's.

On another note, people here are openly mentioning 2 new communities this season.  Is that not a spoiler?  I'm not particularly offended since I'm open to spoilers now (the show isn't special enough to warrant all the work it takes to be spoiler-free), it just seems like maybe we aren't exactly there yet.

Edited October 24, 2016 by phoenix780

[Dobian]

4 hours ago, Scribbles said:

JDM did great playing out awful writing.  The issue is that you saw the comics, not what could have been had they taken the idea and adapted it for compelling TV.

I've written this before, and this probably belongs on one of the sidebar threads, but one problem is that the comics just do not fit the narrative structure of a tv show.  And it's because the comics just go on, and on, and on, like it is a persistent world.  But Walking Dead is not a persistent world.  It's not like the DC Comics or Marvel Comics universes that are alive and dynamic and thriving, and where you can have Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Fantastic Four do their thing forever and ever.  The Walking Dead world is dying, and very quickly, so either civilization takes hold again and outlasts this plague and finds a cure, or everything just collapses in a few short years.  You can't scavenge forever and maintain a sustainable society by looting and enslaving other non-sustainable societies.  Canned goods don't last forever.  Medicines have an expiration date.  So at some point this show needs to depart from the endless go-round of the comics and come up with an end game, because you know somewhere out there at one or more of the many military bases around the country there would be an infrastructure and an actual plan in place for re-establishing civilization.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Dobian

[BloatedGuppy]

Some random thoughts...

• As anticipated, the long off-season gave everyone a chance to get thoroughly spoiled, by purpose or by accident, and much of the tension of what would have otherwise been an unbearably tense sequence was bled away. This can be perceived as both a win (I don't use the word "unbearably" lightly) and a loss (what could have been a landmark television moment became an exercise in how to piss away momentum due to a season break).
• The double-death ended up blunting the impact of Glenn, who was the "real death" of the episode. Abe was always a tertiary character, one of the many redshirts who orbits the main group over the course of a season or several so they can meet their pathos requirements without trimming the core cast. Last season's fake out deaths with Glenn also blunted the impact. Had the death just occurred out of left field, it would have been truly staggering.
• Speaking of the fake out deaths, Glenn dying at the dumpster was actually a far more resonant and suitable death for the character, considering his arc and general personality. It steals from Negan (he doesn't have a core character to murder to ratchet up his villain status) but it's better all around storytelling.
• Negan's road trip with Rick, the quest to retrieve the hatchet, and Rick's unlikely survival of a zombie gauntlet all felt like completely unnecessary padding that once again bled tension. This is also where most of the issues with Negan's monologuing crop up. The crux of Negan breaking Rick, which was the point of the episode more or less, was via the threat to Carl. That did not require an RV trip. Felt like an excuse to get some Zombies on screen.
• Daryl leaping up and punching Negan felt terribly forced. Daryl is a hot head, but he's not an idiot.
• Andrew Lincoln carried the episode from a performance perspective, but got a bit over-the-top during Carl's Arm sequence. All of the actors struggled a bit when the script called for outright hysteria. That's fair, though, it's a difficult ask. And speaking of Carl and his arm, Chandler Riggs STILL cannot act. He's really the sole leftover from the panoply of poor casting decisions the show made in its inaugural seasons, and I get that they're stuck with him, but UGH.
• The big concern with Negan and the Saviors is how on earth they're going to carry this on for the length of two seasons. Walking Dead is already a show that has engaged in repetitive storylines and thematic pushes, and while Negan is certainly the most dangerous antagonist we've encountered the nature of that antagonism is...at least at present...pretty cut and dry. We can have a few episodes of him lording it over Alexandria and generally being insufferable, and explore what it's like to see the heroes as victims (hot tip...it won't be fun and the audience won't like it), but after that it pretty much needs to devolve into a shooting war for narrative purposes and really...how long can that go on for? You kind of HAVE to resolve it by the end of season 7, unless the story takes on legs I can't predict from here.
• I do hope that the war with Negan's people results in another 4-5 casualties though. Walking Dead has become a hopelessly overstuffed show and seriously needs to begin winnowing down its many characters and storylines into something lean and manageable. The best episodes tend to be the ones where we follow a single character for a period of time, and it's hard to do that with a cast of dozens.

Anyway, it was alright. Walking Dead has always been a wildly uneven show with as much bad as good that I stick with the for the occasional standout episode. This wasn't one of them, but it had its moments.

[magemaud]

13 hours ago, Artsda said:

Then I though Carl's arm was a goner.

I didn't think it would happen. The writers seemed to be making a Biblical Solomon sacrificing Isaac on the altar reference even down to the "Now I know you fear (God)" when it was called off.  

[Giselle]

They should have held this episode off until Sunday October 30th, Halloween weekend.

Neegan is the "smashing pumpkin king!"

[scrb]

You know what would be a satisfying end for Negan?

Someone hit him in the Adam's Apple or damage his vocal chords so he can't talk, let him blubber for awhile because he can't speak, then finish him.

[halkatla]

Horrible episode, boring and lame... until 35 minutes in I actually started to quite like it. I had to come here to get spoiled, I couldn´t take the boring fog-trip Neegan and Rick took. I didn´t care who got killed, was hoping for Maggie but I guess it not being Darryl was enough. I don´t know how they´re gonna play this from now on, I´m kind of broken too after watching all this evil, sadistic torture... Where is Judith? I don´t really remember much from past episodes. I´m not a fan of the show since I usually think this show is just barely watchable. It has disappointed me so many times by killing all the coolest people and leaving us with the likes of Maggie.

[Giselle]

3 minutes ago, scrb said:

You know what would be a satisfying end for Negan?

Someone hit him in the Adam's Apple or damage his vocal chords so he can't talk, let him blubber for awhile because he can't speak, then finish him.

Nah, Neegan needs to eat Lucille.

[scrb]

22 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I've written this before, and this probably belongs on one of the sidebar threads, but one problem is that the comics just do not fit the narrative structure of a tv show.  And it's because the comics just go on, and on, and on, like it is a persistent world.  But Walking Dead is not a persistent world.  It's not like the DC Comics or Marvel Comics universes that are alive and dynamic and thriving, and where you can have Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Fantastic Four do their thing forever and ever.  The Walking Dead world is dying, and very quickly, so either civilization takes hold again and outlast this plague and finds a cure, or everything just collapses in a few short years.  You can't scavenge forever and maintain a sustainable society by looting and enslaving other non-sustainable societies.  Canned goods don't last forever.  Medicines have an expiration date.  So at some point this show needs to depart from the endless go-round of the comics and come up with an end game, because you know somewhere out there at one or more of the many military bases around the country there would be an infrastructure and an actual plan in place for re-establishing civilization.

Yeah but they want to keep the money train going forever.  Both AMC and the producers of the show.

And Kirkman too, with his comics.

There will be no end as long as people keep watching this endless cycle of dog-eat-dog battles.

[TigerLynx]

I liked Terminus and the Claimers precisely because they weren't around for very long.  Negan isn't the first character to annoy me because they won't shut up, and he probably won't be the last.  I hope either Maggie or Carl get to kill Negan.  As for Negan's followers, there might be some people that want to rebel against him, however, there are also going to be plenty of people who go along with him if it benefits them in someway.  Human beings are not nice.  There are centuries of history showing just how despicable and horrible human beings can be.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Negan's road trip with Rick, the quest to retrieve the hatchet, and Rick's unlikely survival of a zombie gauntlet all felt like completely unnecessary padding that once again bled tension. This is also where most of the issues with Negan's monologuing crop up. The crux of Negan breaking Rick, which was the point of the episode more or less, was via the threat to Carl. That did not require an RV trip. Felt like an excuse to get some Zombies on screen.

Unnecessary and it made no sense. It was almost as though it was just thrown in there because no one could of think of another way to fill the time. Again, we saw how harmless the zombies now are, even to one unarmed man in their midst. They've turned into just an annoyance, like mosquitos. Totally agree the only pressure needed was the threat to Carl. As Rick said after the confrontation with the Merle Tones, "I would have done anythang to save Coral." I wonder would he have been so willing to beg and grovel and submit to such humiliation (and it was the more subtle, casual humiliation like Negan wiping the gore-covered axe on Rick's jacket that impressed me) if there were no Carl.

I thought it a nice touch with Rick's trying to recycle his "I will kill you" threat to Negan that he made to Gareth, but having it sound so empty and weak this time.

[The Mighty Peanut]

OT but I wanted to add I'm sorry for the posters who have recently lost beloved pets. It's one of the biggest soul hurts in existence, in my opinion.

Edited October 24, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut
Extra word

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Walking Dead Still Manages To Shock

As the show's big cliffhanger is resolved, Rick hangs on by a (literal) thread.

[kj4ever]

34 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I liked Terminus and the Claimers precisely because they weren't around for very long.  Negan isn't the first character to annoy me because they won't shut up, and he probably won't be the last.  I hope either Maggie or Carl get to kill Negan.  As for Negan's followers, there might be some people that want to rebel against him, however, there are also going to be plenty of people who go along with him if it benefits them in someway.  Human beings are not nice.  There are centuries of history showing just how despicable and horrible human beings can be.

If he's stealing everybody's stuff from these different communities perhaps that's why he has such a following.  They don't have to do anything but run around killing people and he keeps them well stocked with food and necessities through other people's work.

Oh, and BTW...The dude playing Negan is physically so not intimidating.  I think if I was pissed enough *I* could kick his ass.

Edited October 24, 2016 by kj4ever

[EllenC]

9 hours ago, Scribbles said:

This episode felt like a comic book.  It was panels of art and dialogue on TV.  They just filled the time with more threats and gore, then heaped on an extra death to up the ante.  

On overnight review, I think this is part of why I was really bothered by the over-the-top violence last night. Of course this is a violent show, but in the past, I felt like those scenes made more sense in the story (i.e. the church massacre -- Gareth's group was threatening a baby, it was kill or be killed -- and we saw that Glenn, Maggie, etc. were disturbed -- there was a lot going on in that scene). From the Jesse storyline to bending over backward to fake out comic readers about Glenn's death (in a way that actually lessened its impact), it seems like it's more often lately that the comic is somewhat harming the show. Obviously the source material is important, but I hope Negan becomes less comic-y. That level of violence just seemed like a lazier way to make us hate him or make him more vivid since he can't curse like he apparently does in the comic? Hershel's death gutted me at the time, but this was so drawn out.

And I hope this reset gives them a chance to focus a little more on some of the core characters and relationships that we really care about and where they go from here. I certainly don't hate the show, but I don't feel nearly so tied to it as I did a season or two ago. I don't feel compelled that I MUST be there at 9 every Sunday. Because the thought of another sadistic villain, lather rinse repeat, is just sort of ugh. More interested in, what did we call them last season, the Tron Knights?

[AngryCarrot86]

2 hours ago, scrb said:

Think about how sadistic TPTB have been to Maggie.

Killed her father, her sister and now husband.

Yes she's suppose to be a "fighter" which is why she's survived this long.  But now a traumatized mother to be, who was experiencing complications to the pregnancy before this.

What are they going to have her do, neglect the child so she can get her revenge?

Does that mean the timeline for revenge will be at least a couple of years until her baby is old enough to be without the mother?

It's obvious they're going to milk Negan for at least a couple of seasons.

What about Sasha?  She's arguably lost more people close(r) to her than Maggie, now.  I say that because did Maggie really even care that much about Beth?  I think we were supposed to assume she did, but we definitely weren't ever shown that.  On the other hand, Sasha lost Bob, Ty, and now Abe.  All of whom she mourned greatly.  I can't think of another character who's had to mourn more on-screen deaths than Sasha (and Maggie if you include Beth). 

Point being - TBTB love to emotionally torture our lead women. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by AngryCarrot86