Hillary Rodham Clinton: 2016 Democratic Presidential Nominee

[atomationage]

Since this is for Off Topic Politics, I thought I would start a thread for the next POTUS, the first non-fictional Madame President.   I'm with her. 

I participated for years in a political forum that has become a disaster because the real Republicans have dropped out.  They're not supporting Drumpf, so the only ones left are the deplorables who are the equivalent of trolls, endlessly quoting Breitbart and other such garbage sites, and impervious to reason. 

[LotusFlower]

Don't jinx it!!  Next you're going to start a thread about the World Champion Cubs!

[bilgistic]

I didn't know where else to put this, @David T. Cole, but it made me chuckle. Sometimes, just sometimes, ad logarithms get it right.

Edited October 11, 2016 by bilgistic

[atomationage]

15 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

Don't jinx it!!  Next you're going to start a thread about the World Champion Cubs!

I live in Chicagoland, about two miles from where HRC started high school at Maine East,  I knew 3 people who went to high school with her at Maine South.  One is deceased, one lives in an assisted living facility, and the other lives in Woodstock.   She's going to be the next POTUS.  I don't feel like I'm tempting fate.  Her opponent is doing everything in his power to make sure she gets elected, and even trying now to get her a majority of Dems in the Senate and the House.  I wouldn't start a thread about the World Champion Cubs because I'm old enough to know that would unfortunately never happen, and I don't want the Ricketts to make another cent.  They support Drumpf.

[zxy556575]

This lengthy Facebook post went viral last June, but is perhaps worth re-posting -- a defense of Hillary by Michael Arnovitz. He suggests that misogyny is what underlies the hatred directed at HRC.

A couple of excerpts:

"Compare for example the treatment Hillary is getting due to her private email “scandal” to that of General David Petraeus. Hillary has been accused of hosting a personal email server that “might” have made classified documents less secure, even though the documents in question were not classified as secret at the time she received and/or sent them. In order for Clinton to have committed a criminal act, she would have had to knowingly and willfully mishandle material that was classified at the time she did so. After months of investigation no one has accused her of doing that, and it doesn’t appear as if anyone will.

General Petraeus on the other hand, while he was Director of the CIA, knowingly gave a journalist, who was also his mistress, a series of black books which according to the Justice Department contained, “classified information regarding the identities of covert officers, war strategy, intelligence capabilities and mechanisms, diplomatic discussions quotes and deliberative discussions from high level National Security Council meetings and [Petraeus’] discussions with the president of the United States of America.” Petraeus followed that up by lying to numerous government officials, including FBI agents, about what he had done. And let's not forget that according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, adultery is itself a court-martial offense. None of this is in dispute. Petraeus admitted to all of it. Petraeus’ violations were significantly more egregious than anything Clinton is even remotely accused of. Meanwhile even after pleading guilty to his crimes Petraeus continued to be the recipient of fawning sentiments from conservatives. Senator John McCain stated that, “All of us in life make mistakes and the situation now, I hope, can be put behind him…” Politico quoted a former military officer who worked with Petraeus as calling the entire situation “silly”. Prominent Republicans have already made it clear that they would call him back to work in the highest levels of government if they win the Presidency. And some are still attempting to convince him to seek the Presidency himself."

...

"Before he ran for President in 2007, Rudy Giuliani was making about $700,000 a month in speaking fees with an average of $270k per speech. It’s estimated that in the 5 years before his run he earned as much as $40 million in speaking fees. Nobody cared, no accusations of impropriety were made, and there was almost no media interest. So why did Giuliani get a pass, while Hillary stands accused of inherent corruption for making less money doing the same thing?"

[Vicky]

I've never figured out what's behind the real hatred people have for Hillary Clinton.  

Right off the bat, how can you have that much emotion about someone you haven't met? 

[BoogieBurns]

4 minutes ago, Vicky said:

I've never figured out what's behind the real hatred people have for Hillary Clinton.  

Right off the bat, how can you have that much emotion about someone you haven't met? 

I think people hate her opponent without having met him. But I agree, I haven't ever figured out what I'm supposed to hate about her. I freaking love her.

[mojoween]

The only way I would vote for Drumpf is if I were dead and someone impersonated me.

However.  I'm legitimately with her.  Bill Clinton was the first president I was old enough to vote for and I did happily, twice.  'Course, I'm probably not the most impartial person as I also voted for Gore and Kerry and my beloved Obama.

Anyways, she's smart and she has a plan.  She stood by her husband who did something idiotic and so did I.  She's obviously a good mother.  I'm going to run, not walk, to the ballot box on Election Day.

[atomationage]

28 minutes ago, Vicky said:

I've never figured out what's behind the real hatred people have for Hillary Clinton.  

She's a woman.  She used her maiden name in conjunction with that of her husband.  (His last name was originally Blythe, but that's never been an issue.)  She went to segregation academies to expose them, making enemies.  She tried to help people as First Lady of Arkansas instead of baking cookies.  She was connected to Wal-Mart.  She defended her cheating husband.  She didn't divorce him.  She tried to get health care for people as First Lady of The United States, the nerve, not baking cookies again.  Her husband was impeached but not removed from office.  She had a career of her own.  She's a woman.  She doesn't keep the same hairstyle forever.  She doesn't wear a dark suit with a tie.  She doesn't look like the other Presidents.   She had the nerve to run against Obama in 2008.  She's married to a person who has been the target of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy forever.  Richard Mellon Scaife hates them and could afford to pay people to lie about her and her husband.  Others have followed in Scaife's hoofmarks.  She worked for the impeachment of Nixon.  She's a woman, the nerve of her!

Edited October 12, 2016 by atomationage
nerve

[bilgistic]

26 minutes ago, mojoween said:

However.  I'm legitimately with her.  Bill Clinton was the first president I was old enough to vote for and I did happily, twice.  'Course, I'm probably not the most impartial person as I also voted for Gore and Kerry and my beloved Obama.

We must be very close in age. My birthday is this month. As a senior in high school, I registered to vote early in 1992 so I could vote for Bill Clinton in the November election. I did so proudly. My folks were horrified.

Edited October 12, 2016 by bilgistic

[mojoween]

I will be 43 on Halloween.  We were able to register to vote in a civics class when I was a senior in high school in '91 as long as we were going to be 18 on Election Day '92.

My parents are card-carrying republicans and if they weren't both in the delivery room when I was born they would be convinced I am adopted because we agree on NOTHING.  I am the political black sheep in this family. 

I still do not understand the ire HRC got about universal health care and why the ACA is supposedly the worst thing to ever happen to this country.  I remember when she went up against the senate in the nineties and how awful they were.

Edited October 12, 2016 by mojoween

[ExplainItAgain]

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

This lengthy Facebook post went viral last June, but is perhaps worth re-posting -- a defense of Hillary by Michael Arnovitz. He suggests that misogyny is what underlies the hatred directed at HRC.

I'm pretty certain this is the reason for the hatred just based on some of my personal interactions and going by my Facebook feed.

I have plenty of Republican friends and in past elections it hasn't bothered me knowing they think so differently from me and would vote differently from me. I mean, what would the world be if we were all the same? But for some reason, I'm really struggling with this election and knowing that some of my friends are voting for Trump.

#imwithher

[Darian]

I'm 55 and am with her. Make that With Her. I've been waiting to vote for her for president since she was First Lady (will vote early in 13 days). My sister and I both had health issues requiring a lot of medical intervention and because they stemmed from childhood cancer for me and juvenile diabetes for my sister, everything was considered pre-existing. We always had good insurance, but still had to fight constantly to get tests and treatment covered, and my sister died in 1997 fearing she would hit her plan's lifetime cap (thanks to President Obama, I don't have to worry about that, but if ACA is repealed I will). We cared deeply about health care reform and when Hillary took it on, we paid attention and we were demanding. She impressed us both, and though we were disappointed when she could not overcome obstructionism and get her planned passed, we were grateful. I followed her career since then (so I know what to debunk), and know she will be a great president. I wave my official Woman Card at you all!

[MyAimIsTrue]

I'm 51 but did not vote until 1992 because I was completely disinterested until that point (my first federal election would have been 1984 and oh did I despise Reagan but I was away at college and didn't know I could request an absentee ballot).  It was Bill Clinton who helped me fall in love with politics and the political process and while Hillary is not my ideal candidate I am happily voting for her in November.  Generally speaking I vote a straight party line ticket because Democrats tend to be in line with my personal beliefs and what I consider to be important.  I am terrified of what could be if that asshole somehow wins the election, and in a way even more frightened by the people I know who are voting for him.  Party affiliation aside can't they see what a loose cannon he is?

[Brattinella]

I'm a woman and I can't stand her, go figure.

[BoogieBurns]

2 minutes ago, Brattinella said:

I'm a woman and I can't stand her, go figure.

I'm a woman and can't stand plenty of women (Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Susan Sarandon). It's allowed. 

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, mojoween said:

I still do not understand the ire HRC got about universal health care and why the ACA is supposedly the worst thing to ever happen to this country.  I remember when she went up against the senate in the nineties and how awful they were.

It's not perfect and insurance companies being allowed to drop out is a concern, but I have a Marketplace health plan (with a $32 premium after subsidies) and would previously have been completely uninsurable due to pre-existing conditions. I am VERY grateful to have been given this option. I'll be forced to start Medicare next month and my healthcare costs will increase from around $100/month on Marketplace to $400/month.

I understand some of the critiques about HRC and agree she can be robotic and is too much of a Beltway insider. I was personally angry about her VP choice because I really hoped she would have gone against the grain of conventional thinking and galvanized her campaign with a vibrant choice. I've also had to make my peace with her as a political strategist, willing to bend with the prevailing wind on many issues. BUT. I also believe she genuinely has pure motives for seeking the job, in that she wants to effect (her version of) positive change. She isn't in it solely for the ego boost.

2 hours ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

Party affiliation aside can't they see what a loose cannon he is?

On one of the unending "interview with Trump supporter" news pieces, a 60-ish woman in the Midwest said, "I'm voting the conservative ticket. In this case it's that asshole Trump." Okay. That I can at least understand.

Edited October 12, 2016 by lordonia

[Bastet]

Quote

I was personally angry about her VP choice because I really hoped that she would have gone against the gain of conventional thinking and galvanized her campaign with a vibrant choice. I've also had to make my peace with her a political strategist, willing to bend with the prevailing wind on many issues. BUT. I also believe she genuinely has pure motives for seeking the job, in that she wants to effect (her version of) positive change. She isn't in it solely for the ego boost.

This is me, including the anger over the VP selection.  She's not as progressive as I would like on some issues, but we generally align on the important stuff.  It's how I felt about Obama.  She's exceptionally well qualified to be president, and I appreciate her long record of public service.  I admire her intelligence and ambition, and the fact she's stood tall in the face of decades worth of unhinged vitriol and sexist bullshit.  I've waited my entire life to vote for a woman for president, and while Clinton is not first on my list of women I'd like to see in the Oval Office, it's a vote I'll be proud to cast. 

I have some good quotes about Hillary that I've saved over the years, most from her first presidential campaign.  From Anna Quindlen:

Quote

Those still behind the curve on the demonization front fall largely into two groups:  the right wing and the media.  Maybe that's because Hillary has never fit easily into the boxes convention and custom create for women.  She tacked on her husband's surname, and she messed around with her hair, but she couldn't hide the fact that she was smarter and more ambitious than most people.  If she were male, both those qualities might have been seen as commonplace.  No excuse, just fact.  Being called opinionated when we have opinions, feisty when we're angry, bossy when we're assertive.  Deal with it.  That's what Hillary has done, big time.

From Sara Paretsky:

Quote

People project on to Hillary because she is a woman.  They either hate her for everything they hate about women or they long for her to be everything they want in a woman.  It's an impossible burden.

And Katha Pollitt:

Quote

Hillary [Clinton] must be the only woman the family-values crowd has ever castigated for sticking with her marriage.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Bastet

[mustbekarma]

20 minutes ago, lordonia said:

On one of the unending "interview with Trump supporter" news pieces, a 60-ish woman in the Midwest said, "I'm voting the conservative ticket. In this case it's that asshole Trump." Okay. That I can at least understand.

Most religious conservatives I know and interact with will vote for Trump because he's anti-abortion. Hillary is killing babies, don't you know. I am so with Hillary. I was really hoping for Bernie Sanders, so Hillary was my second choice. After watching the debates and how well Hillary has handled herself, I'm so WITH HER, instead of with her. The alternative absolutely terrifies me.

[atomationage]

538.com has the odds at about 84% for HRC to 16% for Drumpf.  You can see the odds for each state if you click on their map.

[ruby24]

I'm with her! I'm so proud that the first two presidents I will have ever voted for was our first African-American president and our first woman president!

I was in high school when Kerry ran, so I just missed out on voting for him. But I remember thinking and planning to vote for Hillary in 08, assuming she would run, but then I saw Obama speak for the very first time after he won the Iowa caucus. I don't think I'll ever forget that moment because I basically fell in love, lol. I was in college and became a politics junkie. That year I was so pro-Obama that I remember hating Hillary during the primaries, but it wasn't for any rational reason so much, I was just caught up in the race. I never hated her before and I never hated her after, in fact I really liked her when she was Secretary of State and immediately planned to vote for her when she ran again for 2016, as I hoped she would.

And I'm proud to say that as a history and poli-sci major who actually knows how government works, I was not one of those people who was disappointed and thinks Obama didn't live up to his promises. I think he's been an incredible president who's done so much for this country. I believe he will go down in history as one of our greatest presidents, and not just for the obvious historic reasons.

And in doing even more research about Hillary and her policies and beliefs over the last year, I really do believe she's going to do a good job. It's so crazy to me the over the top hatred people have for her. I don't even know what it's based on. She's not a rock star personality, but she knows what she's doing and she's so smart. I feel that a lot of it stems from thinking she's too ambitious or just that she WANTS to be president and has for so long- but the thing is, no one would ever see that as a negative for a man. Every man who runs WANTS to be president, so why does she get knocked for it? Because women aren't supposed to have that kind of ambition or ego, or at least that's what's been ingrained in us to think.

I think she will be a better president than Bill.

[pivot]

I find nothing more annoying than the excuse that the only reason anyone could hate Hillary is because she is a woman. Her gender has nothing to do with why so many people hate her. Had Kristin Gillibrand, Claire McCaskill, Amy Klobuchar, or Elizabeth Warren run instead of Hillary, none of them would have the worst trustworthy #s in history or the 2nd worst approval numbers of all time. People hate Hillary because she is a compulsive liar who lies about things big and small from her multiple email lies, her NAFTA lies, her lies on child refugees from Central America, the bankruptcy bill she voted for, Bosnia Sniper Fire, her name, her father's non-existent scholarship, her grandparents' immigration history, etc. She lies all the time and I find it insulting. 

She also has terrible foreign policy judgment. From backing the Iraq War to not wanting to negotiate with Iran (back in the Obama/Hillary primary) to her wanting to arm rebels in Syria before we knew who to side with to a no-fly zone in Syria to her half-assed Libya intervention. She has terrible judgment.

Her crappy record of accomplishments. She has a great PR team but there is a reason she has run for president twice now on the accomplishments of other people. In her first run, she ran on many of her husband's work on the Irish Peace Treaty along with other items that she had nothing to do with. She got called out by everyone from Chris Dodd to John Rockafeller to Ted Kennedy to George Mitchell for exaggerating her role and stealing credit from their work. As a Senator, she was the sponor on 3 bills that passed. She was a co-sponsor on many things but that meant other Senators did the heavy lifting and she took the credit. Obama got more done in 1/2 the time of her in the Senate yet she called him inexperienced. As SOS, she was average at best with few real accomplishments. She failed at a climate deal. She failed at getting the Iran Deal done. She ignored Latin America for the most part but managed to help an illegal coup in Honduras against Obama's orders. 

But, what I really hate about her is that she ran one of the most racist and ugly campaigns I've ever seen against Obama. Her campaign called him a drug dealer, implied he was unAmerican and a Muslim. She played on fears that he was an innercity gun grabber. She was called out by almost everyone in the Democratic Party for her campaign's disgusting rhetoric towards the Obamas'. She then tried to cheat her way into the nomination by getting MI/FL delegates seated and had to be convinced to actually concede by a group of elder AA statesmen. The Obamas have obviously forgiven her for it but I am a firm believer in the saying that you see the real character of someone when they are at their lowest moments. Hillary showed her true character when she lost the primary to Obama and it was ugly.

[atomationage]

Hillary campaigned for Obama after losing the nomination. 

and a joint interview with the 44th POTUS on 60 Minutes:

Edited October 12, 2016 by atomationage

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, atomationage said:

She's going to be the next POTUS.  I don't feel like I'm tempting fate.

You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing? Go outside, turn around three times and spit. What the hell's the matter with you?

I've voted for Hillary both times she ran for the Senate (primary and general election) and in both the 2008 and 2016 presidential primaries, so , yeah, I guess I'll vote for her in November.

[atomationage]

Just now, Moose135 said:

Go outside, turn around three times and spit.

Not going to happen.  I just had to close the window because there's a skunk out there. 

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

That year I was so pro-Obama that I remember hating Hillary during the primaries, but it wasn't for any rational reason so much, I was just caught up in the race.

I can only assume that's the reason so many Bernie supporters are against her -- no rational reason? They're all, I assume, liberals who should rightly find Trump's policies abhorrent, even if they dislike HRC's personality and find her policies lacking.

[pivot]

32 minutes ago, atomationage said:

Hillary campaigned for Obama after losing the nomination. 

 

and a joint interview with the 44th POTUS on 60 Minutes:

 

She only campaigned for him after her attempt to steal the nomination from him didn't work. Thank God for Howard Dean who stopped Hillary's team from trying to cheat their way to the nomination against Obama. 

As for Obama campaigning for her now, he's always been a better person than she is. Doesn't change the fact that she ran one of the most racist campaigns in history against him.

I am just bitter than we are going to be stuck with such a mediocre person as the first female president. Obama was an extraordinary person and president and was a real role model to AAs as the first AA president. Hillary is none of those things. But, because the Republicans nominated the only politician in the country worse than her, I am going to be stuck voting for her in November. And if something should happen to her in office, we'll get stuck with Kaine. As a lifetime member of the Dem party, I am just completely embarassed by the ticket we put forth. From Hope and Change to We Suck Less. Yeah.

Edited October 12, 2016 by pivot

[Padma]

Great to see this thread! Thanks! And...me, too. 

I had MSNBC on all evening. I was upsetting. Chris Matthews had the quote from today's rally, Trump saying, "If Hillary is elected, it will be the destruction of our country, believe me." (then repeated it). They showed the woman at Pence's rally saying that if Hllary wins we need a real "revolution". She's on social media all day with others who think the same.

Rachel Maddow had clips from that nutcase Alex Jones (InfoWars) who bellows at his listeners (radio) that Clinton and Obama are, literally, demons, "flies land on them when no one else has flies", etc. He's offering $1000 "bounty" to anyone who show his "Clinton is a Rapist" tshirt at a HRC rally and I think $5000 if you get your voice on air yelling "BC is a rapist!" (very ugly BC pic. He's probably a demon too).   It's working. They showed these fools "demonstrating" at Obama's rally and BCs, disrupting them. Obama laughed at Alex Jones and the demon thing, "He also says we smell like sulphur." I think its scary. Hillary has my great admiration for her guts in facing these people every day.  Apparently they know DT is losing...will lose... but he still keeps telling his supporters the system is "rigged" and the people in "PHiladelphia" are going to steal it from them.

What do you think the day after the election looks like? Everyone seems to think DT and Bannon & Co. have a big plan to make money from bashing the Clintons now, moreso than ever before. So irresponsible because they are not prepared--emotionally or intellectually--to lose. Not sure how they'll deal with it without their hero in the WH.  He'll probably get 50 million votes and half of those are hardcore devotees.  What can be done for them to help them before they do some real damage to the country?

[shok]

7 hours ago, lordonia said:

This lengthy Facebook post went viral last June, but is perhaps worth re-posting -- a defense of Hillary by Michael Arnovitz. He suggests that misogyny is what underlies the hatred directed at HRC.

 

It absolutely is worth re-posting (and for anybody who hasn't, absolutely worth reading). Arnovitz is a terrific writer and well worth a FB like to keep up with his regular postings on the campaign. His calm rational pov on so much of the garbage going on has calmed me down many times after I've been spitting nails over the misogyny and sexism directed at Hillary.

[candall]

16 minutes ago, mojoween said:

My parents are card-carrying republicans and if they weren't both in the delivery room when I was born they would be convinced I am adopted because we agree on NOTHING.  I am the political black sheep in this family. 

Same here, my whole life (except they're both dead now.)  I know my mother would have gone rogue and voted individual over party, but my father was such a devout Republican, I'm actually relieved he's not around for this election, just in case he somehow decided he had to be ride-or-die for the Grand Old Party, no matter what.  I mean, surely not . . . but then again, I've been saying "surely not?!" through the whole campaign, even though the evidence is right there in front of me that my incredulity is naïve.

[Advance35]

I am not overly fond of Hillary.  I'm just not.  But when  I match her up against the alternative, yes she will be getting my vote.  I'm petrified of what the country/world will look like under her competitor and his cronies.

I PRAY to God there is no hideous "October Surprise" that will throw the race.   Some sleaze bag claims he is going to drop an atomic bomb on Hillary's campaign and again while not overly fond of her, the other candidate?  God save us.

[candall]

I first caught sight of HRC decades ago when I ran across one of those novella-length articles in The New Yorker?  Atlantic Monthly? and I was skeptical that The First Lady of Arkansas could really be interesting enough for all that.

But one of the first points was that her graduating class at Wellesley had chosen her to give the commencement address--the first time in the school's history a class had ever picked a fellow student instead of one of the luminaries who would have been honored to accept an invitation from Wellesley.  (I went to Name Brand U. and there's more than a little competitiveness about snagging the most prestigious speakers for commencement.)   Hmm, you have my attention, tell me more. 

 

Once she was on my radar, I kept noticing odd places where we almost intersected--Alaskan salmon canneries, the Children's Legal Defense Fund, the Bloodworth-Thomasons.  (hee)  It felt like she was MY politician, so I've been watching her closely all these years. 

It's not surprising to me at all that she's powered through ten million obstacles to wind up in position to be POTUS.  She's indisputably brilliant, she seems genuinely concerned about inequity and I could write such a long list of examples where she's worked hard to make things better for people--there's nobody more qualified in the entire world and I can't understand why people REFUSE to see any of that. 

Knee-jerk misogyny aside, the only thing I can think of:  remembering that my closest friend voted Schwarzenegger for governor because she thought it would be fun! to mix things up by putting a non-politician "character" in charge. 

 

Anyway, I'm very proud of her and I'm sorry that she must feel so battered and discouraged instead of surfing into office on the big tidal wave I believe she deserves.

 

[Added:  this post was interrupted by a phone call from a friend who mentioned she was going to vote for Hillary "even though she's sneaky."  Sigh, but okay, whatever:  good decision.]

[BoogieBurns]

13 hours ago, lordonia said:

I was personally angry about her VP choice because I really hoped she would have gone against the grain of conventional thinking and galvanized her campaign with a vibrant choice. I've also had to make my peace with her as a political strategist, willing to bend with the prevailing wind on many issues.

My dad and I, who literally could talk politics 24 hours a day, had so many VP arguments before Kaine was announced. More than ANYTHING I wanted Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar (who I want to adopt me), Cory Booker, Julian Castro, or a left-field surprise like Elijah Cummings. But Dad said, "it's Sherrod Brown or Tim Kaine, and Kaine speaks Spanish and goes to a black church."

I looked more into it once he was picked, and Hillary had a great reason for choosing Kaine. She saw how it was when Gore began to run for president during his final 2+ years as Bill Clinton's VP. Hillary didn't want a VP with Presidential dreams. It caused too much tension in the white house the last time she lived there (Also, watch the West Wing, it's very stressful when your VP is campaigning). Also, Kaine's views on abortion are helping with the suburban women vote. As a Christian liberal, I'm growing to like Kaine. I am still looking forward to the Warren/Booker ticket in the future.

[Hanahope]

46 minutes ago, candall said:

Knee-jerk misogyny aside, the only thing I can think of:  remembering that my closest friend voted Schwarzenegger for governor because she thought it would be fun! to mix things up by putting a non-politician "character" in charge. 

And how did that work out?

I've heard all about the Hillary lies.  IMO, Hillary doesn't lie anymore than any other politician.  Frankly, I'd be more surprised by a politician that doesn't lie.  Its what the vast vast vast majority of politicians do.  They lie.  Sometimes they have to (in the interests of national security), sometimes they want to (in order to get their bill, viewpoint, argument accepted by others less likely to consider it).  Is it ideal?  Maybe not.  But sometimes lies are necessary  to get things done.  The important thing  to me is whether the lie actually hurts people.  Maybe its a lie when you promise 500 jobs in an area if your bill is past, but in reality, you believe its likely that only 300 jobs will really happen, is that lie really hurting people?  I'm 100% sure Obama believed that Guantanomo Bay should be closed.  But once he found out certain facts, he realized that it can't, at least at this time.  So was it a lie?  

So yes, I'm sure Hillary does lie.  I'm sure she colors certain arguments to appeal to certain people, emphasis one thing to some people and another thing to others.  She tells one group that she will work towards one goal, and another group that she'll work towards a different goal.  Maybe she wants to try and work for both, see if something can work for both.  So did she lie?  Was it that bad?

What I do know is that despite 30 years of investigations by those with significant reason to find fault with her, still couldn't find a damn thing that was illegal, criminal, indictable, or unethical against Hillary Clinton.  She's either a criminal mastermind genius, or she really has done nothing illegal, criminal, indictable or unethical.

So are people against her being misogynist?  Maybe.  I do know that despite the fact that Obama was one of the most centrist democrats in our recent history, and was willing to practically bend over backwards to compromise with Republicans and yet they refused to meet him halfway on pretty much everything.  And to be honest, if Hillary is faced with a Republican majority, I fear she'll be met with the same.  So either the Republican party is the most racist and misogynistic party in our recent history, or they are so immature and childlike that they refuse to work in any way with any democrat and just throw tantrums and take their ball and go home.  IMO either way isn't good for the Republican party and why I cannot support them.

[pivot]

Kaine is going to run for president in 2024. No doubt about it. Hillary picked him because she needed someone with less charisma than her because her ego couldn't stand being upstaged. Warren will also be way too old to run then unfortunately. 

I wish people would stop smearing people who don't like Hillary by calling them sexist. There are hundreds of legitimate reasons to not like Hillary that have nothing to do with her gender which have been outlined over and over again but instead Hillary supporters rely on sexism charges like a crutch.

And today, Hillary shows once again why so many don't like her. She and her allies are already undermining Obama by saying that she'll be better at working across the aisle than Obama was. Obama who is working his ass off to get her elected is once again being stabbed in the back by Hillary. That is why the Clintons suck. Loyality is a one-way street with them.

I think people are going to be surprised by how quickly Hillary's administration sells out Democratic principles once in office. Bill was the best Republican president we had in a generation. He sold out Dems on issue after issue. Hillary will do the same but with a more hawkish foreign policy.

[Hanahope]

8 minutes ago, pivot said:

I think people are going to be surprised by how quickly Hillary's administration sells out Democratic principles once in office. Bill was the best Republican president we had in a generation. He sold out Dems on issue after issue. Hillary will do the same but with a more hawkish foreign policy.

I don't think those that voted for Bernie Sanders will be surprised one wit.  That's why he had such a huge following in the popular vote.

I do think that she won't go too far to the right, at least during her first term.  She does that, she'll lose voters in droves in 2020.

[Darian]

10 minutes ago, pivot said:

And today, Hillary shows once again why so many don't like her. She and her allies are already undermining Obama by saying that she'll be better at working across the aisle than Obama was.

I've read comments she has made about reaching across the aisle, but I haven't seen the one in which she claims she will be better. Have a link or source or something so I can go find it?

[Nidratime]

Quote

I think people are going to be surprised by how quickly Hillary's administration sells out Democratic principles once in office. Bill was the best Republican president we had in a generation. He sold out Dems on issue after issue. Hillary will do the same but with a more hawkish foreign policy.

Bill and Hillary are really not the same person. I wouldn't be surprised if she were more liberal than Bill, especially on domestic policy.

[Padma]

1 hour ago, candall said:

I first caught sight of HRC decades ago when I ran across one of those novella-length articles in The New Yorker?  Atlantic Monthly? and I was skeptical that The First Lady of Arkansas could really be interesting enough for all that.

But one of the first points was that her graduating class at Wellesley had chosen her to give the commencement address--the first time in the school's history a class had ever picked a fellow student instead of one of the luminaries who would have been honored to accept an invitation from Wellesley.  (I went to Name Brand U. and there's more than a little competitiveness about snagging the most prestigious speakers for commencement.)   Hmm, you have my attention, tell me more. 

 

Once she was on my radar, I kept noticing odd places where we almost intersected--Alaskan salmon canneries, the Children's Legal Defense Fund, the Bloodworth-Thomasons.  (hee)  It felt like she was MY politician, so I've been watching her closely all these years. 

It's not surprising to me at all that she's powered through ten million obstacles to wind up in position to be POTUS.  She's indisputably brilliant, she seems genuinely concerned about inequity and I could write such a long list of examples where she's worked hard to make things better for people--there's nobody more qualified in the entire world and I can't understand why people REFUSE to see any of that. 

Knee-jerk misogyny aside, the only thing I can think of:  remembering that my closest friend voted Schwarzenegger for governor because she thought it would be fun! to mix things up by putting a non-politician "character" in charge. 

Anyway, I'm very proud of her and I'm sorry that she must feel so battered and discouraged instead of surfing into office on the big tidal wave I believe she deserves.

[Added:  this post was interrupted by a phone call from a friend who mentioned she was going to vote for Hillary "even though she's sneaky."  Sigh, but okay, whatever:  good decision.]

Those are great examples and, much as I pay attention, I didn't know a couple of them. It's sad that THIS is the level of discourse and opposition she has to face as our first woman president. However, having this villain* as an opponent, makes a great HRC story for the history books.

*my Trump rant and below moved elsewhere rather than tarnish Hillary's nice thread!

Edited October 12, 2016 by Padma

[Hanahope]

I have to wonder how anyone will want to do business with him again.

[madmaverick]

Hillary's not perfect but she's an excellent candidate for president in her own right imo, and I don't see her as some "lesser of two evils", which I hear a lot of people saying but which I actually think is quite unfair towards her, especially when she's grouped together with someone genuinely despicable and harmful like Trump.  She's intelligent, experienced, qualified, very hard working, a policy wonk, and I believe has a good temperament to be a good leader.  In fact, I would not be surprised if she made a better president than Bill, or if Michelle made a better president than Barack. :P   She may not be the most charismatic or the best communicator according to some, though to me I've never found her that lacking in those respects.  I don't need to elect a charmer.  I want a leader with knowledge and who can get things done.   She reminds me of Merkel, and in fact, I believe, Hillary named Merkel as another current leader she most admired.  Merkel isn't showy, is the leader of a conservative party, but was pretty much the only one who had the balls to enact a progressive policy towards refugees.  I had expected Obama to be more liberal, but in the end, he wasn't as much as I'd hoped.  I think Hillary may actually surprise people and be more liberal than people expect.  She actually has a history of being quite progressive on social issues ahead of her time.  And even the wikileaks speech she gave to bankers at Goldman Sachs, I thought what she said was quite fair.  But in a polarised country like America, maybe you can't veer too much from the centre?  In the past, Hillary's been more hawkish on foreign policy than I would have liked, but tbh, I've found almost all American presidents to be so.  I was always against the Iraq War, but at the time, even people like Powell were making the (unconvincing) case for it at the UN, and if I remember correctly, there were more of the public in support of it than against it at the time in the US, whereas it was the opposite in the UK, and the govt. still went to war.  But I do believe Hillary's learned a hard lesson on Iraq.  Even Obama's made mistakes in foreign policy.  By comparison, Trump's idea of foreign policy is laughable.

I agree with the other poster who said that Hillary isn't more dishonest than any other politician, and I don't really understand why she's perceived as this perpetual liar.  She's not.  Sure, she spins, but not particular more or less than other politicians.  Politifact has her as one of the most truthful politicians out there.  She's been accused of all these 'crimes' by her haters to the extent that they believe she should be jailed, but I find that to be completely outlandish and unwarranted.  I just feel a lot of people's hatred, sadly including a lot of women's, hatred directed towards Hillary isn't rational or rooted in facts.

I'm actually of the demo of younger women who are said to be not so enthusiastic/indifferent at best towards Hillary.  Not sure I understand why, but it makes me sad they aren't cheering her on more.  I'm not saying you have to vote for anyone because they are a woman, but how can anyone not see Hillary's by far a better choice than Trump?

[Padma]

Re: dishonesty. Politifact (independent) rated Hillary as untruthful about 20%, and its usually about herself rather than on issues.  Trump, however, won their "Pants on Fire" prize for the year (when they were just trying to find the worst lie of the campaign--he just had too many! As he says, he's always winning!) His score was 70%+ and there are a lot of whoppers, both about himself and lies about facts.

Hillary's score was about average. His was off the chart.

[pivot]

4 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Bill and Hillary are really not the same person. I wouldn't be surprised if she were more liberal than Bill, especially on domestic policy.

Yep, Bill is the better politician and a better idea of where the country stood. Or the old Bill had those skills. He hasn't been himself since his heart attack. Hillary is definitely not more liberal than Bill on foreign policy and she sold out a lot of her liberal principles when she got into the WH with Bill from opposition to the death penalty, to backing the welfare reform bill. She did even more when she voted for the bankruptcy bill.

It's not just Bernie voters who are going to be disappointed with Hillary. There has been this delusion that Hillary is going to be more liberal than Obama. That isn't going to happen. Hillary is risk adverse in every way. She would never have come out for gay marriage before re-election. Her emails show that we was even against small pro-gay changes at State. 

The article about Hillary stabbing Obama in the back was about Salazar being named to the transition team and quotes from her allies. Hillary never does her own dirty work.

[BoPeeps]

Quote

Might as well declare, since I will definitely be lurking here and possibly dragging out my soapbox now and then!  Glad to see the forum come to fruition.  As everyone posting here knows, Politics, by nature, is a wretched ugly beast.  On every level, it can sidestep civility.  No one's hands are ever clean.  Having accepted that fact over the decades since my idealistically destroyed youth (small half smile), I am very firm in my declaration.

Simply put, I'm With Her. 100%   I'm older than most here but still younger than dirt.   I historically have identified as a left-leaning Independent.  Have always been a solid, social Liberal.  Stubborn and opinionated, too.  Hillary is enormously qualified and experienced to be an educated, strong, formidable and forceful leader.  Relentless in her passions and beliefs for a better country.  My beliefs line right up beside hers.

 I do think misogyny is playing a *yuge* part of this campaign.  What used to be couched in subtleties is now being blatantly and ignorantly spewed in the open with little to no accountability for  the *spewers*.   Women have always had to work twice as hard and be twice as criticized in what has traditionally and erroneously been defined as a man's world.  And yet, she is a rock when facing the often disgusting BS launched at her. 

I am not backing her BECAUSE she is a woman.  But it sure makes my soul happy that she is.

[Padma]

I think it's hard to tell how Hillary will be in office. On the one hand, she'll have the usual die-hard Republican opposition that Obama had to face over everything.  On the other hand, she'll have the (now organized and extremely vocal) hatred of the Trumpettes who are not going to be prepared for her to win and will truly believe she "stole" it.  

She'll want to bring the country together so its not exactly time for big liberal moves.

However, she's...let's say "beholden" or "connected closely with" many liberals now, Warren and Sanders among the most prominent, vocal and powerful.  She's not going to be like Obama in ignoring her liberal "base", because she's much closer to them than he was.

[Ubiquitous]

I think calling Crooked Hillary the next president in this forum title is a wee bit presumptive.

[Darian]

5 minutes ago, pivot said:

The article about Hillary stabbing Obama in the back was about Salazar being named to the transition team and quotes from her allies. Hillary never does her own dirty work.

Thank you. Am Googling and reading articles and can't find the one you mean. I'm not being snarky or argumentative by demanding a link or direct quote, but without more info, I am at a loss. I am trying to find this backstabbing and can't. I have learned to look these things up. I do it consistently, regardless of the candidate or if it will hurt or help my point. And I often find that these things can be like a game of telephone and when I find the primary source, it's quite different. And we're human, so it happens. I refresh my memory before posting from fear of putting my spin on something without realizing. If you come across the quote, source, article name, something, I'd like to read it. Thanks!

[Quilt Fairy]

Back in February, Libby Anne of the Love, Joy, Feminism blog posted something that I have thought of a lot over the intervening months: Why Hillary Clinton's Gender Matters. I'm part of Hillary's generation. When I started working after college in the early 70's I remember well the casual sexism evident even in the very large and otherwise well-meaning company I worked for.  My first district manager had a girly calendar (not Playboy level, but close) pinned up on his office wall, and was surprised when I told him I thought it was inappropriate.  A few years later, when I asked a male co-worker for help decorating the group Christmas tree, I was told that "that's what the girls always do". (I was not, BTW, a secretary when these things happened. I was an engineer and later a manager in a technical division.) And a few years after that (we're in the mid-80s now) when I mentioned to my manager that I felt my biologic clock ticking regarding having a child, he said (knowing I was single), "What are you going to do, stand on a street corner?"  None of these were sleazy guys. It's just how things were.

I've often thought the country would be better off if some (not all, but some) of our First Ladies ran the country instead of their husbands.  For instance I really liked Betty Ford, although apparently she was an alcoholic at the time. Ooops.

I've never believed the mud that has been slung at Hillary, much of it lies made up out of thin air. I was excited when she ran in 2008, and I voted for her in the primary. I thought Obama was a dynamic speaker but just didn't have enough national level experience. My one caveat was that I thought she'd never get anything through Congress because the Republicans absolutely hated her as though she was the Devil. (Some things never change.) But I always felt it was simply because she was a woman. It turns out the Republicans could hate a black President just as much just because he was black. My greatest fear is that Hillary will win but the Democrats won't win the Senate. She'll never get anything done.

Do I have concerns? Sure. At 68, I think she's a little too old for the most demanding job in the world. I know I couldn't do it and I'm a few years younger than she is. If Trump wasn't even older, I think more people would consider this a negative. She's a centrist rather than a true liberal. (There's an interesting anecdote about her husband in a book called Where the Right Went Wrong where the President was in a policy meeting and after a heated debate about some issue said "You know, we're trying to decide if we're going to be Reagan Republicans or Eisenhower Republicans, right?") I thought it was a good thing that Bernie Sanders ran against her in the primaries because he pushed her further to the left. I would have loved to see her pick Elizabeth Warren as a running mate.

But she's the only real choice this year, and I'm going to be thrilled to finally vote for an eminently qualified woman for President.

[candall]

18 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

More than ANYTHING I wanted Elizabeth Warren [...]

OH!! me too, but then someone--the other Dem living within my 25 mile radius--said, "Forget it.  Two women would not win."

I knew I was just indulging in a Clinton-Warren fantasy though.  I've been around long enough to know I always get my hopes up that a second person I like will share the ticket, but instead, the VP announcement comes and I always say:   WTF . . . who??

I'm probably not smart enough to dope out whatever complicated algorithm they use to select the ideal VP for maximizing votes.  I just have to hope it's not someone who would make me want to kill myself if s/he wound up in the top spot.  [Note:  I've never been so happy to have to deal with that awkward "s/he" construction as in this context.]

You are so lucky, BoogieBurns, that you and your father have a thing where you two can get all chewy over the meat and gristle of politics.  My father would dismiss me with a literal handwave.  Arrrrrgh.

************

Wrt whether misogyny is a relevant factor:  I think nearly all Hillary haters would maintain they're not generally opposed to a female president, just to this specific woman.  And that they believe this to be the truth.  And that most likely they will find the next six qualified female candidates objectionable in exactly the same way.  No gender bias, perish the thought, but gads, not this one.

[Padma]

Speaking of sexism, imagine if a man with HRCs experience (not Kerry, someone a little more charismatic) was running against, say, Martha Stewart.  Does anyone really think she would have won the nomination over 14 candidates who had been senators or governors? Or would be seriously in contention against the "most experienced (man) to ever run for president"?

I like Martha a lot more than Donald and would trust her a lot more as president, but the media would have treated her candidacy as a joke from the beginning, because of her lack of qualifications.  There is nothing about Trump to qualify him to be president--and a LOT in his life to make him a horrible choice, And yet, here he is, where it still could, incredibly, happen. .