Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Sew Sumi]

Well, we now know that the "private conference" at Fort Rock at the end of April is acutally reserved for a wedding so....

As I said on the show thread, I have my money on a People engagement announcement next week, as it's closest to Valentine's Day. Jill has no other announcements to make other than sending pics back from Danger America next month as she paints fingernails and Derick puts on his interpretive dance show. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

ill has no other announcements to make other than sending pics back from Danger America next month as she paints fingernails and Derick puts on his interpretive dance show. 

Other than manufacturing a health crisis for one or both of them...it's time for them to recap their wedding again...or for Muffy to remind the world of her own birth drama.

[doodlebug]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:30 PM, lascuba said:

At this point in her pregnancy, Zika isn't at a concern for the fetus...Jill would have had to have been exposed much earlier to cause microcephaly. Jill and Derick going back to Danger America for a couple of months only to return to give birth, though? Fuck that noise. Let them prove how dedicated they are as missionaries by staying and taking their chances. 

Actually, it appears that, while microcephaly only occurs with exposure before 30 weeks; maternal Zika infection in the 3rd trimester can lead to serious neurologic problems in the newborn.  Problems that aren't apparent initially because the head is normal in appearance (and because the parents are dumba**es who probably don't bother with things like well-child visits or even know the appropriate milestones in infant development).

BTW, just got back from my 5th trip to Danger America a couple weeks ago.  Mosquitoes aplenty biting while we were there.  However, being stupid Catholics, we actually had a meeting prior to our departure where the group's resident OB/GYN (me) gave advice on Zika including simply NOT GOING if there is any chance of being pregnant or of anyone in a relationship where pregnancy might be a possibility within the 6 months following the trip.  I also stressed the need for contraception after returning as well as referred to the CDC site on the topic.  Because, you know, science.
 

In other news, the citizens of El Salvador were actually feeling somewhat optimistic because there was a day a few weeks ago when there was not a single murder in the country.  First time in years.  And, no, I did not feel unsafe there.  We had the support and assistance of plenty of locals and followed their advice.

[farmgal4]

On February 5, 2017 at 1:03 PM, GeeGolly said:

I haven't worn it in a while.

LOL!

[Missy Vixen]

On 2/5/2017 at 7:29 AM, ginger90 said:

Saw this on the Duggar Family Blog

In the interview, Jill shared that the family of three (soon to be four) will return to the mission field in the near future. "We are planning to go back very soon," Jill told PEOPLE. "Then we will come back for the birth of the baby."

 

:cough:

BULLSHIT!

:cough:

On 2/5/2017 at 11:30 AM, lascuba said:

At this point in her pregnancy, Zika isn't at a concern for the fetus...Jill would have had to have been exposed much earlier to cause microcephaly. Jill and Derick going back to Danger America for a couple of months only to return to give birth, though? Fuck that noise. Let them prove how dedicated they are as missionaries by staying and taking their chances. 

 

Wasn't there a convo a few days ago over the fact that Jilly Muffin's pregnancy is now considered high risk? She's not going anywhere, especially to a country in which she has no access to the medical assistance she's going to need during this birth.

[Sew Sumi]

Don't worrry. They're just going to assist with the missioncation next month. They'll be gone two weeks, tops. She'll disregard the advice of another midwife and end up with another c-section in Regular America, sometime in July. 

[Micks Picks]

True, I do firmly believe they are there to act as "den mothers" to the paying missioncationers.  The host family, don't you know.  Quite a job for these two as they can't manage their own lives let alone make arrangements for the paying guests.  Sort of like summer camp.  Two weeks max.  And to them it will seem like 2 years work.

[DangerousMinds]

15 hours ago, Missy Vixen said:

:cough:

BULLSHIT!

:cough:

Wasn't there a convo a few days ago over the fact that Jilly Muffin's pregnancy is now considered high risk? She's not going anywhere, especially to a country in which she has no access to the medical assistance she's going to need during this birth.

If they are planning a home birth, given Jilly's "expertise" and Jeebus, why would they need any special US medical assistance . . . .?

[Tabbygirl521]

On 1/23/2017 at 10:24 AM, louannems said:

When I was a little girl, my mom would buy these pizza kits.  Premade dough just had to be rolled out, the little can of premade sauce spread onto the dough, sprinkle on the preshredded cheese, add your own toppings, and voila, I , too, "made" "homemade" pizza!

Same here. Jiffy brand, right? I wonder if that is still available? Hee. 

[Almost 3000]

2 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Same here. Jiffy brand, right? I wonder if that is still available? Hee. 

I think it was Kraft. Jiffy was cornbread and muffins. Weirdly my mom bought these but did home canning, preserves and home made desserts but I was never given a frozen TV dinner because that was homemade too. Candy was always See's. I wonder what family food favorite remembrances Jill and Derick have. With Jill it was probably something from the kraft services table.

[ariel]

25 minutes ago, Almost 3000 said:

I wonder what family food favorite remembrances Jill and Derick have. With Jill it was probably something from the kraft services table.

With Jill in the early days, I think it was what ever a church family left off in a bag  as a gift at the front door that Michelle didn't have to cook & could be assigned to one of the girls to re-heat.

[Arwen Evenstar]

WHO in their right mind lets a baby drink tomato sauce out of a can? Just seems too concentrated and too acidic for his little tummy, not to mention the angry diaper such a food would leave behind. 

Cmon Muffy, open up a can of Campbell's cream of tomato soup, add milk and give your kiddo a grilled cheese sandwich. A slice of REAL cheese between the bread....it's what moms DO! Just about every kid of all ages knows what a treat tomato soup and grilled cheese is! Even those of us who are childless would fix this for a niece or nephew or the neighbors kid...

What am I saying?  Actually asking her to heat up a tin of soup seems like too much work for this space cadet. Looks like Izzy better learn to use a can opener...after all, Jilly Muffin seems to believe the little fella should already know how to fend for himself. 

[GeeGolly]

Maybe the little dude is craving it because he lacks a certain vitamin, like potassium or vitamin C. I kind of doubt he's getting any semblance of a well rounded diet and our bodies usually try and let us know.

Edited February 7, 2017 by GeeGolly

[GeeGolly]

Quote

Hmmm....Cathy is still using Byrum on Instagram. I looked up the Christmas card from her office, but it didn't list any names. I figured that would be a recent lead, but alas, it didn't pan out. 

We really need to be talking about this on the Dullard thread before we get an earful from the mods. :)

From @Sew Sumi in another thread.

The Christmas card form her office had the names Nathan, Cathy, Paul, Matt, Randy and Michelle printed on it. What kind of leads are you looking for?

[Sew Sumi]

Oh, I didn't enlarge the picture. We are sort of wondering whether Mr. Byrum is still around. She uses his name on Instagram, but just goes by Cathy on twitter (I think she used to use her full name there, too). There's more on that other thread, but no one can tell for sure what, if anything, has happened to her marriage. 

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh, I didn't enlarge the picture. We are sort of wondering whether Mr. Byrum is still around. She uses his name on Instagram, but just goes by Cathy on twitter (I think she used to use her full name there, too). There's more on that other thread, but no one can tell for sure what, if anything, has happened to her marriage. 

Am I correct and thinking Mr B had white hair? There's a pic on Cathy's Instagram account of Dan's wedding that appears to have Cathy in the front row. I think there is a woman on one side and a man on the other, neither of whom have white hair. If Mr B didn't attend Dan's wedding that would be an indicator that they have separated.

[Arwen Evenstar]

44 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Am I correct and thinking Mr B had white hair? There's a pic on Cathy's Instagram account of Dan's wedding that appears to have Cathy in the front row. I think there is a woman on one side and a man on the other, neither of whom have white hair. If Mr B didn't attend Dan's wedding that would be an indicator that they have separated.

Maybe he is ill. Just because his pic isn't posted doesn't mean he wasn't there.

Maybe Mr B was a widower when her met Cathy, so he wouldn't be too terribly upset about Cathy still being sad over her first husband. 

I don't think he would have abandoned her due to the stress of her illness, because he stood by her through all of that. Her zealotry and fanaticism could have well put him off,but I think she was already somewhat religious when they married.

[Sew Sumi]

I am sick in bed and bored to tears, so I did a search. 

Mr, Byrum's (I won't disclose his name, although he has one that's almost as bad as Spurgeon) last address matches Cathy's. 

The house has been a known residence of Cathy since 1989, so Derick and Dan were raised there. Cathy goes by both Dillard and Byrum. 

Mr. Byrum (whom I thought looked older when I saw him wheeling Cathy around the church before the Dullard wedding) is 10 years older than Cathy, who just turned 60 - that's public knowledge. 

I hope he's happily retired with income of his own and not mooching off of her, because it looks like they are still together. 

[rubinia]

On 2/5/2017 at 1:30 PM, lascuba said:

At this point in her pregnancy, Zika isn't at a concern for the fetus...Jill would have had to have been exposed much earlier to cause microcephaly. Jill and Derick going back to Danger America for a couple of months only to return to give birth, though? Fuck that noise. Let them prove how dedicated they are as missionaries by staying and taking their chances. 

I disagree. From what I've read, Zika can cause problems in fetal development throughout the pregnancy and there isn't a "safe" time to visit a Zika area while pregnant. Plus, the CDC recommends that people traveling to Zika countries have protected sex with partners that *may* have been infected (i.e., Jill and Derick would need to use condoms for a while after returning home). It's especially concerning considering they'd be traveling to what seems to be rural areas. I asked my OBGYN about visiting in-laws in Mexico (I'm pregnant and also due in July, like Jill). We would be visiting a large city at a higher elevation--both factors that usually mean a lower, though not nonexistent, chance of contracting Zika. She did not recommend the trip.

ETA: doodlebug explained this all very well up above :)

Edited February 8, 2017 by rubinia

[Missy Vixen]

12 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

If they are planning a home birth, given Jilly's "expertise" and Jeebus, why would they need any special US medical assistance . . . .?

I'd like to hope that the "doctor" told her she will not be able to attempt a VBAC at home and unattended by medical professionals. Considering the fact that Jessa Blessa just popped another one out with seemingly no problems, one can only imagine what Jilly Muffin will do to top her.

I'm frankly amazed that any mother would consider putting her baby's life at risk so she could compete with her mother and her sisters, but we're talking the Duggars here.

[kokapetl]

14 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I am sick in bed and bored to tears, so I did a search. 

Mr, Byrum's (I won't disclose his name, although he has one that's almost as bad as Spurgeon) last address matches Cathy's. 

The house has been a known residence of Cathy since 1989, so Derick and Dan were raised there. Cathy goes by both Dillard and Byrum. 

Mr. Byrum (whom I thought looked older when I saw him wheeling Cathy around the church before the Dullard wedding) is 10 years older than Cathy, who just turned 60 - that's public knowledge. 

I hope he's happily retired with income of his own and not mooching off of her, because it looks like they are still together. 

Isn't his first name the same as a fast food clown and a dead 80s president?

[Sew Sumi]

33 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Isn't his first name the same as a fast food clown and a dead 80s president?

Yes, but it's his middle name that we haven't heard with the exception of the male half of a  comedic team and a heavy metal frontman. :D

[kokapetl]

Ozzie?

[GeeGolly]

6 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Isn't his first name the same as a fast food clown and a dead 80s president?

5 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Yes, but it's his middle name that we haven't heard with the exception of the male half of a  comedic team and a heavy metal frontman. :D

5 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Ozzie?

I'm mixing so many threads together that I was like Bozo? Oh no Ronald. They're naming the baby Ronald George Osborne Seewald? Oh the posts aren't about the baby.

[Kiss my mutt]

The Dullards are way more suited for vacation bible school than actual mission work. Derrick needs to regain his independence and go back to walmart. Not sure if they'd make him cut his hair though. 

[cmr2014]

1 minute ago, Kiss my mutt said:

The Dullards are way more suited for vacation bible school than actual mission work. Derrick needs to regain his independence and go back to walmart. Not sure if they'd make him cut his hair though. 

I doubt they'd take him back. I think he was a problem employee requiring tons of time off and special consideration, and then he just up and quit after a year. There are plenty of new college grads who would love a job with WalMart and would actually make an effort, show up every day, and stick it out.

[riverblue22]

6 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I doubt they'd take him back. I think he was a problem employee requiring tons of time off and special consideration, and then he just up and quit after a year. There are plenty of new college grads who would love a job with WalMart and would actually make an effort, show up every day, and stick it out.

Walmart wouldn't want him back but he still has a useful degree that could land him a good job. Or, he could study for his CPA (which I don't think he has) and improve his skills.  Why not find a good job, support your family, and spend your vacations trying to convert Catholics to fundie beliefs?  There is plenty of time to be a fulltime missionary when the kids are grown and off to college.  After all, doesn't Derick want Israel to be a Pistol Pete?

[Micks Picks]

I just watched an episode of Joe Kendall Homicide Hunter, out of Colorado Springs.  The actor playing the cop who died is almost Derick in the flesh.  Except a bit more healthy and with more flesh on his bones.  Kind of freaky, really.

[Malvina]

20 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Derrick needs to regain his independence and go back to walmart.

Here's some helpful material 

https://www.thrillist.com/sex-dating/nation/clingy-girlfriend-boyfriend-relationship-problems

[SunnyBeBe]

I have observed a lot of talk from Derik and Jill about their mission in CA, however, I have never seen any real conviction about it from either one.  Jill obviously dislikes it, but, Derick just seems........I don't know....insincere.  I wonder if he just doesn't like working a regular job and this is a way to seem like he's employed, but not really be.  It seems like there could be an easier way to do that though.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

wonder if he just doesn't like working a regular job and this is a way to seem like he's employed, but not really be.  It seems like there could be an easier way to do that though.

I've wondered the same thing and mentioned similar thoughts in the past. At least in Fundyland, it seems more respectable to be a missionary, than to be seen as someone who lacks any ambition to start their own business or work in the family business. "My son, the missionary", sounds way better than..."my son, the lazy, grifting, sack of shit...really is a failure to launch..."

I can't fathom why a man who has a college degree in a stable profession, and who alsohas a stay at home wife, a toddler, and another one on the way can't be bothered to provide for them or himself properly. Derick seemed to be a nice, decent, humble guy who believed he was lucky to have Jill, but he's as idle, useless, and feckless as she is. Maybe he caught Duggaritis ?

[cmr2014]

27 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I can't fathom why a man who has a college degree in a stable profession, and who alsohas a stay at home wife, a toddler, and another one on the way can't be bothered to provide for them or himself properly. Derick seemed to be a nice, decent, humble guy who believed he was lucky to have Jill, but he's as idle, useless, and feckless as she is. Maybe he caught Duggaritis ?

I think that Derick and Jill both had hyper-romatic ideas about missionary work and marriage.  I think that Derick expected to spend his life drifting around third-world countries being admired for his "commitment to the Lord's work," and getting laid and having an admiring acolyte to take along on his trips. Jill expected to spend a couple of weeks a year handing out candy and fingernail polish and then spending the rest of her time popping out babies and finally earning the respect and admiration of her family.

I think that they're both miserable. Instead of a partner for his world travels, Derick has picked up a barnacle who can barely be pried away from her overbearing family for more than a month or two at a time. And Jill doesn't have an adoring, attentive husband to crow about to other fundies, and her family doesn't seem to think any more highly of her than they did in the past. Maybe Cathy will light a fire under Derick and he will eventually get his shit together, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Quilt Fairy]

What exactly is Derrick doing at the moment? I remember way back when he and Jill first got married and there was a lot of discussion about the road to becoming an accredited SBC (or maybe IFB?) missionary, and it involved a lot of training, evaluations and education for both him and Jill.  Then all of that got dropped when the Josh II scandal hit and they ended up in Danger America as SOS missionaries, which apparently don't have those requirements.  Is that what he is now, or does anyone have a sense that he's still going to try for the more established recognized route?

[Minivanessa]

13 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

What exactly is Derrick doing at the moment? I remember way back when he and Jill first got married and there was a lot of discussion about the road to becoming an accredited SBC (or maybe IFB?) missionary, and it involved a lot of training, evaluations and education for both him and Jill.  Then all of that got dropped when the Josh II scandal hit and they ended up in Danger America as SOS missionaries, which apparently don't have those requirements.  Is that what he is now, or does anyone have a sense that he's still going to try for the more established recognized route?

I too wonder what he's doing at the moment. You're correct that he had aspired to be a career missionary with the Southern Baptist International Mission Board. And ended up playing missionary with SOS, which is a big come-down. I've posted about it, including here last fall: 

 

IMO it wasn't really Joshgate that blew up his plans. It was that Jill in no. way. could ever meet the IMB's requirements for missionary spouses. Which included completing college level coursework and passing interviews and evaluations. I believe that what with their super-long-distance "courtship" Derick really didn't realize Jill's limitations in terms of education, life skills, social skills, and psychological maturity, when he proposed. I think he expected she'd be like the young women he'd known all his life in his church and at school. Remember, he grew up in a mainstream Baptist lifestyle, including public school and college. There are lots of bright, talented, accomplished young women in those churches and schools, who hold jobs and get degrees and also get married and have kids while doing school and/or jobs. I think Derick stupidly assumed Jill had all that down, plus she was supah-pure-and-speshul and of course Fundie Famous. What could possibly go wrong? Well, except reality, dude. Except reality.

Even before Joshgate hit, Derick had quit talking on SM about Jill's "studies" to be a missionary, and gone on instead to hype her finishing the work to get her not-really-a-midwife certificate. Which I totally believe he pushed and pulled her through. Maybe Joshgate was just the incentive for Derick to get the heck outta Arkansas even if not in the way he would have preferred.

[Sew Sumi]

They had already planned to leave before Joshgate. Remember, in the last episode of 19 Kids, the previews for the next season had Derick assembling the family for a "big announcement." Boob was shown looking very upset. That episode aired two days before Joshgate broke, so it had obviously been in the can for probably a couple of months, since they tape about 6 months behind air time. 

I do agree that Derick realized that Jill would never be able to attain the education requirements set forth by the SBC and that he's "settling" by working for SOS. And Jilly Muffin is a perfect example of why the SBC has these requirements in place. Being devout and knowing how to paint fingernails just isn't enough to call oneself a missionary. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Minivanessa]

18 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

They had already planned to leave before Joshgate. Remember, in the last episode of 19 Kids, the previews for the next season had Derick assembling the family for a "big announcement." Boob was shown looking very upset. That episode aired two days before Joshgate broke, so it had obviously been in the can for probably a couple of months, since they tape about 6 months behind air time. 

I do agree that Derick realized that Jill would never be able to attain the education requirements set forth by the SBC and that he's "settling" by working for SOS. And Jilly Muffin is a perfect example of why the SBC has these requirements in place. Being devout and knowing how to paint fingernails just isn't enough to call oneself a missionary. 

Good catch about the pre-Joshgate footage. I'd forgotten that!

[Missy Vixen]

10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

They had already planned to leave before Joshgate. Remember, in the last episode of 19 Kids, the previews for the next season had Derick assembling the family for a "big announcement." Boob was shown looking very upset.

 

I think the actual destination changed between the taping and Joshgate. I also wonder how much of Triple D's zeal to get the hell out of Dodge was a result of the very real (at that time) possibility that Jilly Muffin could be compelled to testify in any suit brought against her brother. 

One also has to wonder what it must have been like for everyone in his work group at WalMart to deal with the reality star (and constant interruptions, media phone calls, days off to film, etcetera). 

[Arwen Evenstar]

9 minutes ago, Missy Vixen said:

One also has to wonder what it must have been like for everyone in his work group at WalMart to deal with the reality star (and constant interruptions, media phone calls, days off to film, etcetera). 

Not to mention a clingy succubus attached to him while he was trying to work. Dropping him off, picking him up...no big deal...but coming there to eat lunch every day...not just once in a while...certainly she must have driven him nuts with phone calls and texts all day long.

[GeeGolly]

Great post @Jeeves and at this point I doubt Jill would even want to meet any of the requirements because now she knows that even the evangelizing missions require more than painting fingernails and handing out candy. 

Derick thought he was getting to know a woman who was experienced in missions and becoming a midwife and instead he was getting to know Jill.

[SunnyBeBe]

So how did Derik come up with El Salvadore?  I mean.....aren't there more options?  Did he have to select one that would discourage visiting family? 

I'm sure some of you are too young to recall the murder of 4 American nuns in that country by the El Salvadore national guard.  I can't seem to put that out of mind, even though it occurred so long ago.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_murders_of_U.S._missionaries_in_El_Salvador

[Churchhoney]

14 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

What exactly is Derrick doing at the moment? I remember way back when he and Jill first got married and there was a lot of discussion about the road to becoming an accredited SBC (or maybe IFB?) missionary, and it involved a lot of training, evaluations and education for both him and Jill.  Then all of that got dropped when the Josh II scandal hit and they ended up in Danger America as SOS missionaries, which apparently don't have those requirements.  Is that what he is now, or does anyone have a sense that he's still going to try for the more established recognized route?

Well, the actual missionary thing had to be dropped as soon as it became clear to Derick that Jill was far too poorly educated (and maybe too dumb) to finish the requirements before decades had passed (if then). That's absolutely unquestionable.

I think that Derick went into the engagement believing the whole story that had been told about the Duggars' home schooling and about Jill -- that she'd had the fine Duggar home education, had written a book with her sisters and was one of the kids who had seriously intended to study biology and nursing in college (through College Plus, I guess, which the Duggars had been paid spokespeople for and spoken about with regard to Jill, but I'm sure Derick, like many fundie folk, had bought the hype about that, too). Not only that but she'd studied Spanish on her own initiative for years and was pursuing midwife education.

Then when they married and he got to know her and the family better, the truth probably came home to him in a big rush -- that the Duggar education was essentially zero (or worse, since it aggressively informed the kids that they were actually being educated better than other people so they're not only completely ignorant they firmly believe they're excellently informed) and that even to prepare to go to any college would likely be a decades-long full-time project for Jill and not necessarily possible even then, given her starting point. 

And since the full missionary certification requires both spouses to be well and suitably educated and, in fact, to get education beyond whatever college degree they already possess, Derick couldn't just say, "Well, I'll get the certification alone and she can take care of the kids." So once he understood that the Duggar fantasy he'd bought (lock, stock and barrel) was a complete lie, his own missionary dream was entirely over since he had a wife who couldn't hack it.

I doubt this possibility ever crossed his mind when they were "courting." And he probably couldn't even believe it for quite some time after he first started seeing evidence. Dreams like that die hard. And now here he was in a marriage that his religion made absolutely permanent and that marriage would be a bar forever to what he also had thought his religion called him to do. .......  The complete, utter and final death of his cherished Christian dream, brought about by his Christian conviction that marriage is forever. That had to be a terrible blow. And more so because I'm convinced that it came as a complete surprise and shock.

And then, after all that, the Josh stuff came out -- another complete and very depressing shock to Derick, I expect -- and, of course, his one surviving parent had been close to death through much of this mess. And then there was the unexpectedly very difficult birth and his own botched surgery. 

I know everybody thinks Derick is some kind of crazy nasty weakling because of his current frazzled, street-person-looking possibly-embittered-seeming state. But, honestly, I don't think it's surprising a bit given the crushing blows that have come since his marriage. 

He went into that marriage completely deluded -- which he shouldn't have done, of course, but don't a lot of people do this? -- and the unraveling of his delusion also destroyed his career dream. And then he -- and they -- got hit numerous times when he was already down. I hope some day he can pull himself together and find a new direction for his family, but I'm not surprised he hasn't at this point. And of course Jill will have to rally (or somehow be rallied) to participate in this regrouping. And how capable is she of that? Who knows? 

They're a tragedy. Much like Anna and Josh. ..... And I expect that Bin and Jessa and Jinge and Babe are two more tragedies to come, just a while farther down the road. ..... And poor education and Duggar lies are at the root of all these tragedies. 

(and then, of course, we have the different tragedies that are Jana and JD....) The fixated-on-heaven JB and M hath wrought hell for their children and sons-and-daughters-in-"love" as ass Meeeechelle is fond of saying. They are loathsome. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Churchhoney

[yogi2014L]

6 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, the actual missionary thing had to be dropped as soon as it became clear to Derick that Jill was far too poorly educated (and maybe too dumb) to finish the requirements before decades had passed (if then). That's absolutely unquestionable.

I think that Derick went into the engagement believing the whole story that had been told about the Duggars' home schooling and about Jill -- that she'd had the fine Duggar home education, had written a book with her sisters and was one of the kids who had seriously intended to study biology and nursing in college (through College Plus, I guess, which the Duggars had been paid spokespeople for and spoken about with regard to Jill, but I'm sure Derick, like many fundie folk, had bought the hype about that, too). Not only that but she'd studied Spanish on her own initiative for years and was pursuing midwife education.

Then when they married and he got to know her and the family better, the truth probably came home to him in a big rush -- that the Duggar education was essentially zero (or worse, since it aggressively informed the kids that they were actually being educated better than other people so they're not only completely ignorant they firmly believe they're excellently informed) and that even to prepare to go to any college would likely be a decades-long full-time project for Jill and not necessarily possible even then, given her starting point. 

And since the full missionary certification requires both spouses to be well and suitably educated and, in fact, to get education beyond whatever college degree they already possess, Derick couldn't just say, "Well, I'll get the certification alone and she can take care of the kids." So once he understood that the Duggar fantasy he'd bought (lock, stock and barrel) was a complete lie, his own missionary dream was entirely over since he had a wife who couldn't hack it.

I doubt this possibility ever crossed his mind when they were "courting." And he probably couldn't even believe it for quite some time after he first started seeing evidence. Dreams like that die hard. And now here he was in a marriage that his religion made absolutely permanent and that marriage would be a bar forever to what he also had thought his religion called him to do. .......  The complete, utter and final death of his cherished Christian dream, brought about by his Christian conviction that marriage is forever. That had to be a terrible blow. And more so because I'm convinced that it came as a complete surprise and shock.

And then, after all that, the Josh stuff came out -- another complete and very depressing shock to Derick, I expect -- and, of course, his one surviving parent had been close to death through much of this mess. And then there was the unexpectedly very difficult birth and his own botched surgery. 

I know everybody thinks Derick is some kind of crazy nasty weakling because of his current frazzled, street-person-looking possibly-embittered-seeming state. But, honestly, I don't think it's surprising a bit given the crushing blows that have come since his marriage. 

He went into that marriage completely deluded -- which he shouldn't have done, of course, but don't a lot of people do this? -- and the unraveling of his delusion also destroyed his career dream. And then he -- and they -- got hit numerous times when he was already down. I hope some day he can pull himself together and find a new direction for his family, but I'm not surprised he hasn't at this point. And of course Jill will have to rally (or somehow be rallied) to participate in this regrouping. And how capable is she of that? Who knows? 

They're a tragedy. Much like Anna and Josh. ..... And I expect that Bin and Jessa and Jinge and Babe are two more tragedies to come, just a while farther down the road. ..... And poor education and Duggar lies are at the root of all these tragedies. 

This biggest shame of the Derick and Jill situation ( and why I specifically do not feel that bad for Derrick) is that if he just followed any sort of common sense and didn't rush into marriage, this could have been avoided.  Derrick grew up normally. I am sure in his circles people take time to get to know each other and spend time alone before getting hitched. He fucked up big time with Jill and I think he seriously resents her, and the rest of the Duggar clan ( but this is truly his own fault, as he should have known better). 

I think a lot of his behavior is just a big boy temper tantrum. 

Anna was pretty much sold to the Duggars similar to Joy being sold to whoever she is marrying. Her and Derrick are on completely different levels in terms of tragedies, in my opinion. ( tho I do agree all this duggar kids are on a bad road )

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, yogi2014L said:

This biggest shame of the Derick and Jill situation ( and why I specifically do not feel that bad for Derrick) is that if he just followed any sort of common sense and didn't rush into marriage, this could have been avoided.  Derrick grew up normally. I am sure in his circles people take time to get to know each other and spend time alone before getting hitched. He fucked up big time with Jill and I think he seriously resents her, and the rest of the Duggar clan ( but this is truly his own fault, as he should have known better). 

I think a lot of his behavior is just a big boy temper tantrum. 

Anna was pretty much sold to the Duggars similar to Joy being sold to whoever she is marrying. Her and Derrick are on completely different levels in terms of tragedies, in my opinion. ( tho I do agree all this duggar kids are on a bad road )

Oh, I completely agree that all three of the married-in guys should have had the sense not to get rushed into this. And that hostage-from-birth Anna is in a different category. 

But I also think that Bin was too young to be held 100 percent responsible, and I have a feeling that both Der and Jer have some kind of weakness that made them more susceptible than some people would have been to JB's made-for-tv railroading.

Maybe JB fit into some daddy issue Der had developed after his father's death, for example, and Jill gave him the affection that he'd just not been able to get from other girls because he's a painfully skinny accountant with a crooked face.. Anyway, something. So I do have a smidgen of sympathy for them. ....

After all, I know quite a few people even older and with apparently no excuse at all who've married in way too much haste and lived to regret it. That's an awfully common human mistake, in my opinion, and not usually an ill-intentioned one. So I can't bring myself to find the guys fully loathsome for falling prey to it. Especially because all three of them look a little weak and susceptible to me and therefore probably more easily railroaded. 

But, yeah, I agree -- they stand as a warning that marrying so fast, especially when people are pushing you and calling attention to the tv schedule, is a poor poor idea that you may live to bitterly regret. 

[Absolom]

I think the messed up birth Jill had with Israel was a double whammy because Jill was an allegedly trained midwife.  If he or his family members had any sense or knowledge about birth that was probably seriously explained to him.  That was the seal on how uneducated and ignorant his poor wife was.  It has to be a shock to find out someone is so self-destructive in their delusion of having knowledge. 

[Ljohnson1987]

Jill was never a trained midwife. The midwife she received 'Training' under almost killed a baby.  I also don't believe that Izzy was able to flip to breech right before the birth. He was almost 10 pounds. He would've have to been breech for some time. Shows more uneducation on Jill's part. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

11 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I think the messed up birth Jill had with Israel was a double whammy because Jill was an allegedly trained midwife.  If he or his family members had any sense or knowledge about birth that was probably seriously explained to him.  That was the seal on how uneducated and ignorant his poor wife was.  It has to be a shock to find out someone is so self-destructive in their delusion of having knowledge. 

What's even more insidious than this delusion is the competition among siblings and other Fundies to better or one-up them at ANY cost. This botched birt could have ended badly for Jill and Izzy.

[Arwen Evenstar]

6 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Jill was never a trained midwife. The midwife she received 'Training' under almost killed a baby.  I also don't believe that Izzy was able to flip to breech right before the birth. He was almost 10 pounds. He would've have to been breech for some time. Shows more uneducation on Jill's part. 

What's worse is that she should have known she was in trouble before mecomium was coming out of her. Had she received proper care from a qualified midwife or OBGYN, she would have avoided all of this. The ultrasound would have showed she was transverse to begin with...The fact that she kept going after mecomium rather than immediately getting herself to the hospital, and she's supposed to be a midwife...

Edited February 10, 2017 by Arwen Evenstar

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So how did Derik come up with El Salvadore?  I mean.....aren't there more options?  Did he have to select one that would discourage visiting family? 

I'm sure some of you are too young to recall the murder of 4 American nuns in that country by the El Salvadore national guard.  I can't seem to put that out of mind, even though it occurred so long ago.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_murders_of_U.S._missionaries_in_El_Salvador

I'm from Cleveland and it was the Cleveland Catholic Diocese that sponsored those women.  I've been to the place where they were found; the priest who discovered their bodies is still living there and his story is heartbreaking.  There is now an orphanage and a school dedicated to their memories there; I've also been there and it's a wonderful tribute to the women's lives.  One of them is from my part of town and has many, many relatives in Cleveland; none of them have forgotten her, her family passes down the story from generation to generation.  They were martyred, just as Bishop Oscar Romero, soon to become a saint in the Catholic Church was.  They spoke up for the rights of the poor and paid for it with their lives.  Bishop Romero was rather famously gunned down while saying Mass.

As for Derik, other fundamentalist groups have gone to El Salvador and gained a foothold over the years; so there is already a rather sizable fundamentalist Christian presence.  I suspect it is because it is relatively easy to reach from the US and the poverty as well as the large rural population who don't have regular access to church; so, even though they are ostensibly Catholic, they don't really know the faith.   That has given them the opportunity they've needed to come down and spread their version of Christianity.

I've talked about Jill's birth and the lies and half-truths in the story the Duggars told.  Suffice to say, she mismanaged the whole thing from the very start, long before she went into labor and she's lucky she and her child are ok.

Edited February 10, 2017 by doodlebug

[satrunrose]

4 hours ago, yogi2014L said:

This biggest shame of the Derick and Jill situation ( and why I specifically do not feel that bad for Derrick) is that if he just followed any sort of common sense and didn't rush into marriage, this could have been avoided.  Derrick grew up normally. I am sure in his circles people take time to get to know each other and spend time alone before getting hitched. He fucked up big time with Jill and I think he seriously resents her, and the rest of the Duggar clan ( but this is truly his own fault, as he should have known better). 

I think a lot of his behavior is just a big boy temper tantrum. 

Anna was pretty much sold to the Duggars similar to Joy being sold to whoever she is marrying. Her and Derrick are on completely different levels in terms of tragedies, in my opinion. ( tho I do agree all this duggar kids are on a bad road )

I think when an idealist, black and white thinker like Derrik collided with an even more naive idealist like Jill (who was head over heals in love with her missionary in shining armour and wasn't afraid to show it), there was bound to be trouble. I don't think either one brought common sense to the table as much as an overwhelming sense of This Is God's Plan For Me! (details and logistics be damned). Now they have a child and another on the way and life is all about details and logistics so they're just kind of lost. I feel kind of sad for them, actually.

[yogi2014L]

1 hour ago, satrunrose said:

I think when an idealist, black and white thinker like Derrik collided with an even more naive idealist like Jill (who was head over heals in love with her missionary in shining armour and wasn't afraid to show it), there was bound to be trouble. I don't think either one brought common sense to the table as much as an overwhelming sense of This Is God's Plan For Me! (details and logistics be damned). Now they have a child and another on the way and life is all about details and logistics so they're just kind of lost. I feel kind of sad for them, actually.

meh, sounds like its time to grow the hell up to me :-) 

Plenty of people have amazing idealizations of what they want out of life and then quickly realize they either

A. Can't cut it ( Sorry Derrick and Jill) and do something else. 

B. Can't ( or don't want to)  make the sacrifices in order to do so ( like, I would love to travel the world but I would also love to keep my nice job and 401K so Im not destitute when I'm older). 

Its just adult-ing 101 and they are both shitty at it. I feel worse for JIll. Derrick just needs to grow up, get a handle on himself, and do whats right for Izzy and Izzy2 on the way. 

Sorry, a father of 2 with a mentally unstable/ill mother isn't a good candidate for being a missionary in a dangerous country. If he really wanted to be this amazing missionary and travel the world, he should have never gotten married to a Duggar. I know hindsight is 20/20, but he needs to give it up. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by yogi2014L