Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Cherrio]

I swear Jill uses her eyeglasses as just a prop to make her look what she thinks a smart person looks like.  When does she wear them other than when playing doctor, or nurse,or midwife?

Attorney's often put studious looking glasses on their clients wanted for heinous crimes too. :)

[CofCinci]

It is unlikely that any hospital would give them privileges to practice in them

Who needs clinical privileges when you have toilets.

[Defrauder]

Wouldn't that clog up the toilet? Would it be defrauding Bin to have him come and plunge out some after-birth?

I was thinking about labor before the actual delivery.  I would hope that they would move from the toilet before the baby came out.

[Julia]

Oh my god you're right, she does.

 

Of course, considering Mayim is a devout Jew, and Jill is...whatever the Duggars are, I think both would be scandalized by the comparison.

She does have some weird ideas about science outside her specialty, though. They could talk about vaccines.

[GeeGolly]

I'm assuming that Anna had the urge to poop which is not uncommon when pushing for delivery. It's just a guess, but maybe she insisted on using the bathroom and realized that the baby was coming before she had time to move.

 

(Hope you're not eating dinner JenCarroll)  ;)

Edited September 29, 2015 by GeeGolly

[Fuzzysox]

I'm assuming that Anna had the urge to poop which is not uncommon when pushing for delivery. It's just a guess, but maybe she insisted on using the bathroom and realized that the baby was coming before she had time to move.

 

(Hope you're not eating dinner JenCarroll)  ;)

That's what I thought too that she was using the bathroom then stayed there and the baby crowded and she couldn't move after that. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[mimionthebeach]

I'm assuming that Anna had the urge to poop which is not uncommon when pushing for delivery. It's just a guess, but maybe she insisted on using the bathroom and realized that the baby was coming before she had time to move.

(Hope you're not eating dinner JenCarroll) ;)

That's exactly how Jill told it in the episode. Cause it's not enough that your sil was just filmed giving birth on the toilet. You gotta point out that she needed to poop.

[sometimesy]

poop..snicker

[Micks Picks]

I've seen birthing chairs from 100 plus years ago and they might look awful but they would actually serve the purpose of helping to deliver the kid.  

 

I saw a show with Anthonly Bordain in a middle eastern country I think and he and a companion were looking for a pot of certain size to give to a couple.  Anthony was unclear what it for but turned out it was a piss pot.  The beds for the babies had holes in them that you laid the baby over and they eliminated through the hole and into the piss pot.  Really.  And I had heard the term before; I guess that's where it originated.

[Defrauder]

Maybe Jill would find this information helpful.  When delivering and in labor  a woman will often have the urge to poop, but after a long time of pushing there often isn't any poop left to poop and the urge to poop is really the urge to push the baby out.  So after a while of pushing it may not be poop that is about to come out and even if it is it's probably a better idea to deal with it in bed so when the baby comes out it has a softer and safer landing than the toilet. 

[Churchhoney]

Oh, that poor woman.  Put me in a bed any day delivering a baby  over than on a toilet. 

 

Gravity helps you deliver the child, though. And when you're in bed gravity doesn't work for you at all. I'm surprised that they don't have birthing chairs or practice squatting or standing labor or something (of course those options work best with the father helping the woman hold herself up, with his presumably strong arms and back -- so they're lacking something there too since Josh naps). It doesn't make any sense to me that people who want to do non-hospital births would have the only two available options be toilet or lying down, especially when having kids is pretty much your constant activity. Once again, they just seem stupid and thoughtless. (but I guess "seem" isn't the right word there)

Edited October 1, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Defrauder]

Gravity helps you deliver the child, though. And when you're in bed gravity doesn't work for you at all. I'm surprised that they don't have birthing chairs or practice squatting or standing labor or something (of course those options work best with the father helping the woman hold herself up, with his presumably strong arms and back -- so they're lacking something there too since Josh naps). It doesn't make any sense to me that people who want to do non-hospital births would have the only two available options be toilet or lying down, especially when having kids is pretty much your constant activity. Once again, they just seem stupid and thoughtless. (but I guess "seem" isn't the right word there)

Just put me in a bed please.  Gravity or no gravity the baby's coming.

[CofCinci]

Put me in a bed or a trapeze or a ball or a pillow - anything -- as long as it's not a freaking toilet with a camera 3 feet away and my sister-in-law looking at my cooch.

[Defrauder]

Put me in a bed or a trapeze or a ball or a pillow - anything -- as long as it's not a freaking toilet with a camera 3 feet away and my sister-in-law looking at my cooch.

You can say that again.

[Churchhoney]

Just put me in a bed please.  Gravity or no gravity the baby's coming.

 

To each his own!

[frenchtoast]

Wait, wait, we passed it! We were on the Jill, Derick and Israel topic and now we turned and are heading towards personal stories and the Prayer Closet. Let's merge back into the Jill lane, please.

[Zahdii]

Each labor and delivery are different.  There's no way to tell what's going to happen.  You arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible; you eat right, keep as healthy as possible, take your vitamins, etc.  You prepare yourself as much as you're able, and then, when you're in labor you try to surround yourself with people who have you and your baby's best interests at heart.  And if things start to go wrong, you listen to the advice of the medical people who have overseen the labor and delivery of (hopefully) hundreds of babies.

 

Jill didn't seem to realize that every labor and delivery was different, and each needs a specific plan to insure a positive outcome.  She was like me at my first delivery, in that she had a list of things to be checked off and a wonderful birth story to tell.  But unlike me (where everthing went wrong and we were all happy to survive), Jill had been at many births before that, and she had to realize that they're all different.  Things change as labor progresses, and you have to adjust.

 

Jill was arrogant in her insistance that her labor go as planned.  As more and more things happened that should have sent her to the hospital, she ignored all the signs.  She didn't know nearly as much as she thought she knew, and her midwife wasn't any better. 

 

Sadly, I think that the fact that Jill managed to have a healthy baby has blinded her.  All she sees is that she was in labor for several days and still had a positive outcome.  She doesn't mention that she lucked out, and things really could have turned out much worse.

In my opinion, Jill is too immature to be trusted with the role of caring for expectant women.  She wasn't even capable of doing it for herself.

[Churchhoney]

 

Jill didn't seem to realize that every labor and delivery was different, and each needs a specific plan to insure a positive outcome.

 

 

This is the whole Duggar one-size-fits-all philosophy, isn't? Only one specific form of Christianity is acceptable. The only suitable place to live is ruralish Arkansas -- no cities please! All girls must be SAHDs and SAHMs. All boys work in construction (or something) for Jim Bob. Everyone should say that their secret desire is to be a missionary. It's good to choose your own "modesty" rules for courting, except that the only ones you actually should choose are: no handholding until engagement and no kissing till wedding day. The KJV is the only acceptable Bible, and no music except a narrow set of hymns and classical tunes is approved. Rather than buying modest clothing off the rack, you should buy something with a lower neck and a higher hem and force it into modesty by sewing a diaper into the neckline and the remains of a slip from the 1960s around the hemline. Schooling consists of memorizing flash cards and parroting a set of picky -- albeit ridiculously confusing -- rules for conduct penned by Gothard and buddies. Etc.

 

This family has been raised to believe that there's a very clear and limited set of rules and requirements for literally everything in life and that even looking at any alternatives makes you hellbound, pretty much. I guess it's no surprise that this is the way they view everything they do.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Lemur]

Proposed:  We change the title of the sub-forum from "The Dillards" to "The Dullards".

[FakeJoshDuggar]

We were limited as to what made the final cut, but surely the medical professionals (for which Jill is not) told them how serious the situation with Israel had become.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the internet, but considering that Jill had an emergency c-section instead of a regular, bikini one the incision has to be different, right? There are people who have success with VBACs but I can't imagine a reputable doctor recommending one after an emergency incision.

Jill probably thinks that she's so special that the laws of biology don't apply to her and will probably try an unassisted VBAC at home for Pickle #2. She might be the one who ends up dead due to her own blind ignorance.

[Absolom]

You can still have a bikini incision with an "emergency" c-section.  The emergent part comes from not being planned not that it always has to be done instantly but soon.  There are some that must be done immediately, but even most of those are bikini incisions these days at least my friends who had not planned sections had bikini incisions.  Doodlebug can give a full explanation.  Micro-preemies like Josie are a different matter. 

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Thank you for clarification!

[JoanArc]

 

These two misses

Don't forget the baby's position and the strep. Jill's good intentions can't force a good outcome, no matter what she thinks.

[Churchhoney]

Don't forget the baby's position and the strep. Jill's good intentions can't force a good outcome, no matter what she thinks.

 

Sort of the way Jessa's and Ben's good intentions aren't going to, you know, support their family down the line.

 

I'm afraid they've been told that their purity of heart, rightness with the Lord and all-around slavish devotion to the wise principles of JIm Bob-ism will always lead the righteous Duggars into good outcomes. That's why they don't bother to find out any information, consult with anybody or, heaven forbid, try to use common sense. At some point it's going to get some of them into big trouble.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Churchhoney

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Oh my god you're right, she does.

Of course, considering Mayim is a devout Jew, and Jill is...whatever the Duggars are, I think both would be scandalized by the comparison.

Mayim also has a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA while Jill completed Gothard's SOTDRT.

I imagine that Derrick may have encouraged Jill to complete her certification so that he had a wife who had completed some sort of training. I assume that many - if not most - of his friends from college probably married girls they met at college. Even if many of them don't work outside of the home now, my guess is plenty of the women in the couples in Derrick's (non-Duggar) social circle are college graduates or trained in something.

Edited October 4, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[flyingdi]

I sometimes think Jill's problem is not that she's immature. Her problem is she's a control freak. She seems to be a true believer so if she starts to think things aren't going her way then obviously she's being punished. She doesn't want to think that way so she won't admit things are wrong til she is absolutely forced to. This is not the healthiest mental state to have but I think that is Jill's main problem.

[Wellfleet]

I sometimes think Jill's problem is not that she's immature. Her problem is she's a control freak. She seems to be a true believer so if she starts to think things aren't going her way then obviously she's being punished. She doesn't want to think that way so she won't admit things are wrong til she is absolutely forced to. This is not the healthiest mental state to have but I think that is Jill's main problem.

 

Quite possible - she is certainly a control freak, IMO. She has learned well at Boob's knee.

[kandinski]

She also seems to behave and talk like a little girl.if you saw her playing dress up with dolls would it suprise you?

[Churchhoney]

She also seems to behave and talk like a little girl.if you saw her playing dress up with dolls would it suprise you?

 

Signs of both the infantilization and the poor and inadequate socialization the Duggar kids have experienced. Very sad, really. From my own experience, I don't think you can ever fully recover from this, even if you realize it's happened to you and you really really try. And in their case, they don't seem even to know it, so I expect this is going to be a feature of Jill's pretty much for life.

[floridamom]

Some very good observations here. I think that Jill is an immature control freak. From that very heavily edited birth episode of Jill's, we'll never know what really happened. I think it was so edited to hide Jill's poor decision making with her own body and child. Why was she shielded from the indignity that Anna endured on national television?

 I also don't think that she and Derick are continuing any  real friendships at all with his friends from college. I don't know what to say about Derick....he is disappointing to say the least; sad that his very good real college education seems to be wasted on him at this point.

[Churchhoney]

Judging from Jill's post-wedding IG posts of laundry-folding and banana-buying, which felt very boredom-induced to me, I think that she literally has no idea how to constructively fill her day without a house full of her mother's children to raise. IMO, Jill wanted Derick to stay at home so she could have a purpose and wouldn't be alone all day. 

 

At most, she should have used that time to finish her college and midwifery studies, join a book club, pick up a hobby, make some friends, get a part-time job, etc.

 

At least, she should have spent the day at TTH like she did pre-marriage to help out her sisters; she still could've gotten home in time to cook dinner for Derick. 

 

IMO, Derick didn't understand the severity of Jill's arrested emotional development when he married her. Unfortunately, rather than rise to the challenge by putting his foot down and encouraging her to find interests outside the home, he quit his job to feed into her unhealthy needs. 

 

I basically agree with all this. ... I do think, though -- from the perspective of somebody with a similarly warped background -- that changing in the ways we'd like to see her change would be much much harder for Jill and take much much more time for her to accomplish than anyone with a more normal background can possibly imagine.

 

I think it's kind of like what happens with spoken-language capabilities in babies' brains. We're born capable of making the sounds of all the human languages, the clicks and the tonal variations and the rolled rs and all of it. But as we learn one language most of those capabilities fall away and are damnably hard to recapture  later in life. Similarly, when you're raised in an extremely limited and limiting environment, as the Duggars were, I expect that other brain capabilities you were born with -- including the actual impetus to do certain things -- actually wither away. You're not using them. They never get reinforced. In fact, they may be negatively reinforced so that they wither up even faster. So trying to get them back later becomes really problematic -- even the desire to do certain things other think of as normal has withered.

 

For me, for example, socialization went this way. It never even occurs to me to make friends, respond to people, enjoy myself with people or reach out to people the way other people find it normal to do. I'm pretty sure it's because I so unconsciously squelched these desires in myself as a kid -- to prevent pain, I suppose -- that I find it next to impossible to get those desires and capabilities back. When you've squelched even the desire to behave in a certain way, it puts a real crimp in your behaving that way. And you have lost the skills right along with the desire, of course.

 

I comment a lot on the dead-and-dullness of the Duggars. But, to be fair to them, I expect that a lot of what looks like their boringness and stupidity was well and truly baked into them by their upbringing. And i think it'd just be very very hard for them to recover buried impulses and abilities. Not made any easier, of course, by their being unaware that they could be doing different stuff with their lives and, in Jill's case, being married to someone who doesn't really get it either and so ends up trying to address it in the wrong ways.

 

I was saved from being a Duggar by having gone to regular school and being pushed to take on paying jobs from an early age, I think. I learned to interact with people just fine in worklike situations and to find my mental stimulation in work activities. But when I think of what an unmitigated disaster I am socially to this day, I hate to think what I'd be like altogether if I'd not only been deprived of socialization but also been forced into the hideous and stultifying SOTDRT, banned from"working for others outside the home, and trapped every day in the mental wasteland of the TTH the way the Duggar kids are. ... It's a long road back for them, I think, and made longer by the fact that they've been told that there isn't even a road... or a place to go back to.

[CofCinci]

Jill has posted a new blog entry about why she wanted to become a "midwife." She is obviously trying to talk up her education and training via a distance-learning school (with occasional in-person classes) in Texas. I guess that finally explains her midwife student friend Rachel from Texas who attended her botched home birth.

On a totally shallow note, Jill's hair is actually on point for maybe the first time in her entire life in the photo of her holding her certificate.

http://www.dillardfamily.com/2015/10/why-i-wanted-to-become-a-midwife

From the blog:

I ended up enrolling in a midwifery school in Texas, where I was required to take classes via distance learning and go there once every few months for a few days of training and tests, while studying with Venessa and a few other midwives to get my hands on experience.

I had finished my clinicals by

Reading her use of the word "clinicals" is probably the most I've ever been disgusted by the whole Duggar clan. This is offensive to all medical and allied health professionals who had a true clinical work as a part of their accredited education.

[farmgal4]

Wait, wait, we passed it! We were on the Jill, Derick and Israel topic and now we turned and are heading towards personal stories and the Prayer Closet. Let's merge back into the Jill lane, please.

frenchtoast, you crack me up! Thank you for a badly-needed chuckle today!

[Lemur]

Is it me or is it impossible to read what the certificate says or the name of the school?

[Sew Sumi]

Can someone look at Jill's certificate on a computer to see what body granted her diploma? I'm on my phone, and the print is too small s for me to read.

[Sew Sumi]

Okay, so she did NARM testing and was awarded the diploma from the Texas school? My best guess.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[JenCarroll]

Is it me or is it impossible to read what the certificate says or the name of the school?

It says "The North American Registry of Midwives."

[Churchhoney]

From the blog:

Reading her use of the word "clinicals" is probably the most I've ever been disgusted by the whole Duggar clan. This is offensive to all medical and allied health professionals who had a true clinical work as a part of their accredited education.

 

Plus, banned Venessa is still involved. Nice.

 

She did all the actual observation and participation with Venessa, who seems to be kind of a hanger-on and has not looked to be very ethical of dripping with good judgment, health-related or otherwise, either. ... And virtually all her observation and hands-on experience happened before she got married. ... So it's old experience and potentially experience that was fudged and gussied up to look better than it was by Venessa who is a somewhat shifty leghumper type. That's what I was afraid had happened, and there it is.

 

The only thing I see on the bright side is that she still mentions that, early on, she was afraid of the responsibility. So I guess I'll hope that, since virtually all her hands-on experience is now years behind her and she must feel rusty, the fear of responsibility will bother her now, too, and she'll steer clear of situations where she'd be driving the bus. ...

 

Wonder if this could be the program.... https://texasmidwiferyschool.com/index.html

Edited October 2, 2015 by Churchhoney

[graefin]

Can someone look at Jill's certificate on a computer to see what body granted her diploma? I'm on my phone, and the print is too small s for me to read.

The North American Registry of Midwives (http://narm.org/).

[CofCinci]

They don't even have a Wikipedia entry.

[kokapetl]

After Venessa was struck off the register she became a Zumba instructor. Does anyone find that plausible at all?

[Churchhoney]

They don't even have a Wikipedia entry.

 

They have however officially worked together in a consortium with the CNM groups on finding common ground to develop a more comprehensive system of midwife training and practice in the United States (and there's similar stuff internationally). So they're not just hanging out there in the air with no recognition by other groups... Here:

 

http://mana.org/us-midwifery-era-us-mera

 

An historic joint meeting of seven organizations directly responsible for education, regulation and professional associations for the three U.S. midwifery credentials—CPM, CNM and CM—was held April 19-21, 2013 at the Airlie Conference Center in Warrington, Virginia.  Named the United States Midwifery Education, Regulation and Association (US MERA) work group, the  objectives were to: 1) strengthen the foundation for organizations responsible for midwifery education, regulation and associations to work collaboratively to advance the midwifery profession in the U.S., and 2) grow together as leaders creating the future of midwifery in the U.S.

The following identified meeting goals were met

    Describe a history that reflects the ongoing efforts to move professional midwifery forward in the U.S., including identification of challenges and accomplishments

    Engage in a dialog that creates a deeper understanding of current strengths and challenges for U.S. midwifery

    Develop knowledge and trust to support successful ongoing communication

    Identify opportunities for future collaboration

    Conduct a collaborative analysis of the International Confederation of Midwives (ICM) three pillars—Education, Regulation, and Association (ERA)—as they apply to U.S. midwifery

US MERA member organizations

Member organizations included, American College of Nurse-Midwives (ACNM), Accreditation Council for Midwifery Education (ACME), American Midwifery Certification Board (AMCB), Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA), Midwifery Education Accreditation Council (MEAC), North American Registry of Midwives (NARM), and National Association of Certified Professional Midwives (NACPM.)

Statement of Purpose

By consensus US MERA participants recommended establishment of the US MERA Work Group as an ongoing entity with the following purpose:

    “The purpose of US MERA is to create a shared vision for U.S. midwifery within a global context, generate an action plan for collaboration to strengthen and promote the profession of midwifery in the United States, thereby engendering a positive impact on U.S. maternity care that will improve the health of women and infants.”

After Venessa was struck off the register she became a Zumba instructor. Does anyone find that plausible at all?

 

She needed the cash?

[kokapetl]

Venessa wasn't remotely in shape the last time we saw her, plus when Jill was in labour, she visited a chiropractor in the same building Venessa's Zumba "practise" was in. Shady.

[egilsdottir]

After Venessa was struck off the register she became a Zumba instructor. Does anyone find that plausible at all?

 

Wouldn't a Zumba instructor have to wear fitted clothing? NIKE!!!

[Wellfleet]

 my late ex husband was a doctor too and i always wondered this too!

 

Probably because things seems FAR scarier in the dark, quiet nighttime than they do during the bright, noisy, busy daytime.  It can't be that bad if it's happening during the day. But at nighttime, you can feel your heart thumping, your blood running through your veins, and every little cell twitching...

[JoanArc]

 

Signs of both the infantilization and the poor and inadequate socialization the Duggar kids have experienced. Very sad, really. From my own experience, I don't think you can ever fully recover from this, even if you realize it's happened to you and you really really try. And in their case, they don't seem even to know it, so I expect this is going to be a feature of Jill's pretty much for life.

Plus Jill never really had a childhood. Adolescence or young adulthood, either. Sad.

 

 

IMO, Derick didn't understand the severity of Jill's arrested emotional development when he married her. Unfortunately, rather than rise to the challenge by putting his foot down and encouraging her to find interests outside the home, he quit his job to feed into her unhealthy needs.

When Jill married everyone was so sure it would go the other way. I guess Jim Bob is a better judge of (bad) character than we give him credit for.

 

 

changing in the ways we'd like to see her change would be much much harder for Jill and take much much more time for her to accomplish than anyone with a more normal background can possibly imagine.

 

Yeah, it'll take at least 20 years.

 

Nice to see the mission donations paid for some PF Changs and Starbucks....for Izzy?

 

 

Probably because things seems FAR scarier in the dark, quiet nighttime than they do during the bright, noisy, busy daytime.  It can't be that bad if it's happening during the day. But at nighttime, you can feel your heart thumping, your blood running through your veins, and every little cell twitching...

Not a MD here, but as a nurse...when things go wrong, they go wrong in the middle of the night.

Edited October 2, 2015 by JoanArc

[doodlebug]

And virtually all her observation and hands-on experience happened before she got married. ... So it's old experience and potentially experience that was fudged and gussied up to look better than it was

 

Yup, I think it explains how Jill was able to get the numbers needed to take the exam, minimal though they are.  She says she started keeping track as a teen.  Of course, a nurse midwife wouldn't be able to use her high school volunteer work, even if it was at births, to get her degree.  Just one more way that CPM's are less well trained than CNM's.

 

When I was in med school, we learned about the 'recency effect' which means that, when we're learning something, the closer the test is to the learning, the better we recall the info.  How likely is it that things Jill learned as a teen prior to her 'formal education' as a CPM were really that useful to her? Why would that count towards her requirements? Also, as anyone knows, practice makes perfect.  Now that we know Jill attended her 40 required deliveries over a period of many years, it makes it even less likely that she has even minimal skills.  I didn't feel ready to do deliveries all on my own after doing 162 vaginal births in a yeasr; Jill apparently assisted/performed fewer than one delivery a month.  Delivering a baby is a manual skill and it needs to be done time and time again so it becomes habitual and muscle memory takes over.  I doubt anyone could learn to tie their shoes or ride a bike if they only attempted once a month.  How could Jill ever develop the skills needed to deliver babies?  IMO, she couldn't.

[BOOgen3]

BTW the Dillards appear to be shopping/strolling at the Pinnacle Hills Promenade in Rogers. They are posed outside of a Banana Republic. Lunch, shopping, Starbucks...almost a normal way to while away the hours.

[Churchhoney]

Leghumpers are jumping all over a woman who voiced concern about Jill's training on the official Duggar FB page. One person said that CPMs and CNMs are basically the same thing, and they receive equivalent training to that of doctors.

 

Dr. Jill Duggar at your cervix. 

 

LIke Jim Bob and Michelle, leghumpers pretty much oppose logic, I think.

[Lemur]

BTW the Dillards appear to be shopping/strolling at the Pinnacle Hills Promenade in Rogers. They are posed outside of a Banana Republic. Lunch, shopping, Starbucks...almost a normal way to while away the hours.

 

Yeah, I guess it beats working for a living.