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Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

Chris Knight

By Chris Knight
in Counting On

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Shout out to everyone participating in the conversation about Jill’s miscarriage/stillbirth. You’re navigating a difficult topic with respect and thoughtfulness and your contributions are kind, considerate, constructive and informative. 

Thank you. 💚💚

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Fuzzysox

Fuzzysox

(edited)

I said this in the Benessa thread, but I would actually be curious to see Jills midwifery work in El Salvador.

See if she has better judgement with other women than she had for herself

 

Also think she is pregnant and I would bet 1000 dollars that she flies to the US to have her baby.

 

EDIT: Not that I think she Shouldn't, but she can't preach irresponsible breeding/ no birth control in a third world country if she herself wouldn't give birth there. 

If she gives birth in el salvador, then she would not be a hypocrit. 

Like I said before Jill isn't going anywhere right now. She is going to stick around for the Binessa blessing and probably be called on to help Jessa deliver. I don't think they even have health insurance so it will give Jill a client to prove to us what a great midwife she is.

Edited by Fuzzysox
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JoanArc

JoanArc

Like I said before Jill isn't going anywhere right now. She is going to stick around for the Binessa blessing and probably be called on to help Jessa deliver. I don't think they even have health insurance so it will give Jill a client to prove to us what a great midwife she is.

Professional rule #1: Don't treat close family.

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Wellfleet

Wellfleet

Did they stop accepting donations? If they are being paid to film and are vacationing in the U.S. for awhile, they don't need to grift anymore.

 

IMO, the Duggars and assorted Duggar-lings will always be able to find justification for their grifting. Whether it's good or not is another matter entirely, but they'll ALWAYS be able to find justification. 

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yogi2014L

yogi2014L

(edited)

Like I said before Jill isn't going anywhere right now. She is going to stick around for the Binessa blessing and probably be called on to help Jessa deliver. I don't think they even have health insurance so it will give Jill a client to prove to us what a great midwife she is.

Now Jill coaching Princess Jessa through labor...THAT I would like to see ( the actual, real footage, not the highly edited crap they give us)

 

However- if Boob is out of the picture ( like if TLC went directly to Benessa and Jerick) do you think that they will still get the good edits/ leave anything controversial out? I could see TLC being a little less...nice...now that they see the public wants the controversy (higher ratings)...I don t think they will throw them under the bus per say, but maybe they will be less forgiving with footage?

If they showed the Duggars actual reality, I would be hooked and would watch LOL, but its probably just a pipe dream :-)

Edited by yogi2014L
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JenCarroll

JenCarroll

If Jim Bob puts himself out as their "agent" or "manager" maybe there is a way for him to get himself involved one way or another.

Oh, I have no doubt that Jim Bob is getting a slice of this somehow. But he may find that he doesn't have the kind of power that he did over "19 Kids."

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Cherrio

Cherrio

http://dlisted.com/2015/09/24/jessa-and-jill-duggar-are-coming-back-to-tlc/#more-191907

 

Aaaaannnd....the yellow sweater is coming back, too. 

 

Comments are a good read - very snarky, PTV-ish. Enjoy !

This was included in the article.    "  The specials will air directly after TLC’s new show Say No To The Gays, a show which follows Kim Davis as she travels the country and denies marriage licenses to gay couples."

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Sew Sumi

Sew Sumi

(edited)

This was included in the article. " The specials will air directly after TLC’s new show Say No To The Gays, a show which follows Kim Davis as she travels the country and denies marriage licenses to gay couples."

That's Michael K being snarky. But the way TLC is going, would a show like that be that far out of the realm of "reality?"

DAMN YOU, AUTOCORRECT!!!! /shakes fist

Edited by Sew Sumi
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Wellfleet

Wellfleet

How delicious would it be if tlc were planning to show them in a less wholesome way,Although Dim bob probably has episode appproval or something.

 

I really wonder whether Boob still has/ever had the clout to insist on conditions with TLC. In the last year especially, it seemed to me at times like TLC was deliberately showing the family, Ma & Pa especially, in a less-than-favorable light. The "marriage counseling" episodes come to mind, and it goes without saying - the soft core porn mini-golf. The first time I saw the golf thing, I truly felt like TLC was trying to make Mr & Mrs look ridiculous. If they were going for a 'Parents of the Year' vibe, wouldn't they absolutely have cut that footage?

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Itsnotreality

Itsnotreality

Agree. Other TLC shows also "turned" on the families near the end. I wonder about the family needing this a bit too much financially. The editing before was SO far in their favour it was hard to imagine them not having SOME say. I can't see the audience buying the same family that was presented before.

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kokapetl

kokapetl

Pretty far out of the realm, actually, what with it being legally impossible on jurisdictional grounds... :-)

How about "Kim Davis travels the country and preaches about the eyebrow grooming skills she learnt in jail".
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BitterApple

BitterApple

Here's my question: How fast do you think Derick and Jill will abandon their mission if TLC makes the announcement that 19K&C is back as a regular series?

I don't think TLC is going to foot the bill for two separate film crews and there's NO way in hell Jill is going to let Jessa and Baby Seewald hog all the air time. My guess is they'll bail under the guise of wanting Izzy to grow up around his cousins. Jana better start dusting that McMansion because I have a feeling it will be occupied real soon...

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kokapetl

kokapetl

(edited)

Here's my question: How fast do you think Derick and Jill will abandon their mission if TLC makes the announcement that 19K&C is back as a regular series?

I don't think TLC is going to foot the bill for two separate film crews and there's NO way in hell Jill is going to let Jessa and Baby Seewald hog all the air time. My guess is they'll bail under the guise of wanting Izzy to grow up around his cousins. Jana better start dusting that McMansion because I have a feeling it will be occupied real soon...

They decided to be "missionaries" before the molestation scandal hit, but I think the more modest scope of the current specials will convince them to come home to TLC.

Edited by Kokapetl
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Defrauder

Defrauder

Did they stop accepting donations? If they are being paid to film and are vacationing in the U.S. for awhile, they don't need to grift anymore.

And you know TLC isn't going to ask them how much money they collected from donors and what they did with it all.

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Fuzzysox

Fuzzysox

Jill has two mustard colored sweaters! The one she wore to Famy's wedding is longer and has a v-neck. The one in the Michael K post is shorter and has a round neckline. I'm calling Stacy London now. Now that they are back to TLC Stacy can certainly be called out to help them one sister at a time.

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

Jill has two mustard colored sweaters! The one she wore to Famy's wedding is longer and has a v-neck. The one in the Michael K post is shorter and has a round neckline. I'm calling Stacy London now. Now that they are back to TLC Stacy can certainly be called out to help them one sister at a time.

I like the mustard sweaters. I have one too. :)

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Fuzzysox

Fuzzysox

(edited)

Oh, I have no doubt that Jim Bob is getting a slice of this somehow. But he may find that he doesn't have the kind of power that he did over "19 Kids."

Come on now, he is the fundie version of PMK, of course he is getting a cut. lol

Edited by Fuzzysox
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lottiedottie

lottiedottie

Lots of people. I knew a woman from an internet forum who decided to bicycle first across the country, then around the world on other peoples money.

         She constantly talked of her disdain of people who weren't willing to live an adventurous life, yet took money from people who obviously work for a living.

          They used their homely little blonde sons to grift and score free food, free lodging and money. This went on years.    The kids were sick a lot, hungry and put in very dangerous situations too many times to mention.

HA! I know who you are referring to!

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)

Well, they recently got this neat idea about living in their van...

 

So they can call up Anna's sister Esther for deep spiritual encouragement to follow that dream but consider switching to a pop-up camper.

Edited by Churchhoney
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Cherrio

Cherrio

I really wonder whether Boob still has/ever had the clout to insist on conditions with TLC. In the last year especially, it seemed to me at times like TLC was deliberately showing the family, Ma & Pa especially, in a less-than-favorable light. The "marriage counseling" episodes come to mind, and it goes without saying - the soft core porn mini-golf. The first time I saw the golf thing, I truly felt like TLC was trying to make Mr & Mrs look ridiculous. If they were going for a 'Parents of the Year' vibe, wouldn't they absolutely have cut that footage?

TLC has all the power.   After a few years of a hit show, they give the parents a courtesy title of producer which carries no weight, but keep inflating the ego. Its a way of keeping their cast working and making them think they are important / stars.  

   I agree that they do show things to show them acting stupid deliberately too.

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cmr2014

cmr2014

I found a couple of things in that article especially interesting:

 

it is of note that Honduras and Guatemala provide free prenatal care and childbirth assistance to women in those countries. In Honduras, the free public hospitals only allow their staffs of medical professionals to be present during delivery; they do not allow midwives, family members, labor coaches, or anyone else to attend births.

 

Does Jill know this? The whole family is so incurious, and so unwilling to do even rudimentary research on anything that I can't help but think that this will come as a shock to her.

 

The other was the mention of Jill's fear of needles. I wonder if that played into her refusal to go to the hospital when her labor wasn't progressing. Personally, I think that there were a lot of (mostly dumb) reasons, but I think might have been one, too.

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CherryMalotte

CherryMalotte

I think they are really really going to regret signing any contract for more shows.  They still have their superfans, but a big part of the tide has turned and they are going to be so scrutinized by various media and former fans that they'll wish they really were in Tibet. 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)

I imagine she did know this. She can't really attend births inside of medical institutions in most countries (perhaps not in any countries.) The whole point of CPMs is that they attend births that occur outside of medical institutions. In the United States, that often tends to mean that they attend home births with mothers who, often but not always for reasons of their faith, are opposed to hospital births and the medical establishment generally. Around the world, however, many many people have forever given and do today give birth outside of medical institutions because they live in rural areas or otherwise don't have access to medical institutions. And lay midwives have always assisted in those births, and in many many cases assisted very ably indeed. The world is full of lay midwives who take their work extremely seriously and do a damned good job of it.

 

Now Jill's an idiot largely, in my opinion, because she's a Duggar, born and raised in a family that doesn't believe in reason or thought at all. But Jill's deficiencies don't mean that no non-medically-trained midwives are worth anything, in my opinion. Not at all, actually. They're worth quite a bit in many places, always have been and likely will be for a very very long time to come. That's not to say that everyone is a good one. But neither is every neurosurgeon a good one. Somebody was at the bottom of all those med-school classes, too.

 

When we hear outrage from medical workers about why thus and such person with thus and such training should never ever be allowed to do x, y and z, I think we always should take it with a fair-sized grain of salt and look carefully at both sides of the issue.Because, as someone who's observed this for quite a long time, I'll tell you that here may be no more vicious sniping on earth than the sniping among different groups of health care providers about what exact kind of training and experience make some one qualified to do this, that, and the other thing. The long drawn-out battles between psychologists and psychiatrists, anesthesiologists and nurse-anesthetists, doctors and nurse practitioners, primary care docs and specialist physicians, hospitalists and surgeons, radiologists and surgeons, etc. testify to this. The medical field has always been and still is the scene of massive infighting usually aimed at keeping some other group of workers from doing the work that one group of workers now has a monopoly on getting paid for. And the best answer is never simple and hardly ever is black and white for or against either group of workers in question.

Edited by Churchhoney
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Wellfleet

Wellfleet

(edited)

Pretty much what we've been saying all along. I'm sure there's a few really, really good CPMs out there, but we're not looking at one. How's Jill gonna handle her first case of uterine atony, or hemmoraging, when she's sitting in someone's living room? Praying won't cut it.

 

Sounds like that doctor is righteously, and correctly, FED-UP with those half-baked midwives out there - and the entirely-avoidable tragedies caused by their incompetence. Women, like Jill, who may not have attended high school much less college-level classes. The comments here are full-tilt too. I wonder if TLC will re-think matters at all? It sounds like a massive anti-Duggan effort is planned. And PS - where do I sign?

 

ETA - with apologies to all the competent, well-trained midwives out there, many of whom work with under-served and rural populations that may not have good hospitals or doctors nearby. As churchhoney said, it shouldn't be assumed that all CPMs are idiots, just because Jill is...

Edited by Wellfleet
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Julia

Julia

Just, didn't Jill more or less drop out of training to be an actual credentialed midwife? Because if I remember what you folks were saying about this, what she's missing is the experience portion of the process, which is not something I think you can do over the interwebs. It sounds as if she's really more like a doula (although I do know they have their own training programs). Which is fine, unless she advertises herself as an actual midwife and takes the place of an actual midwife at births, because it doesn't seem as if either her training or her judgment is good enough for that.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

Just, didn't Jill more or less drop out of training to be an actual credentialed midwife? Because if I remember what you folks were saying about this, what she's missing is the experience portion of the process, which is not something I think you can do over the interwebs. It sounds as if she's really more like a doula (although I do know they have their own training programs). Which is fine, unless she advertises herself as an actual midwife and takes the place of an actual midwife at births, because it doesn't seem as if either her training or her judgment is good enough for that.

 

Well, if she actually is a CPM, certified, then she has had a significant amount of practical experience. (This is why I've been in doubt about whether she actually has attained the certification -- over the past few years it's kind of hard to see how she could have assembled this much experience, in my opinion, but anyway ...)

 

According to the NARM website, she would not even have been able to register for the written exam until she had completed the following:

 

  "Document the fulfillment of these requirements on the appropriate NARM application forms.

        Phase 1: Births as an Observer

        10 births in any setting, in any capacity (observer, doula, family member, friend, beginning apprentice).

        Phase 2: Clinicals as Assistant Under Supervision

        20 births, 25 prenatals (including 3 initial exams), 20 newborn exams, 10 postpartum visits as an assistant under the supervision of a qualified preceptor.

        Phase 3: Clinicals as Primary Under Supervision

        20 births, 75 prenatals (including 20 initial prenatals), 20 newborn exams, and 40 postpartum exams as a primary midwife under supervision. Continuity of Care births are required in this phase."

 

Then:

"Upon fulfillment of the above requirements you will be sent a Letter of Completion of NARM’s Portfolio Evaluation Process, which will qualify you to sit for the NARM Written Exam."

   

Then, after you pass the exam, you do

    Five Additional Births as Primary Under Supervision

And then you get the certification. http://narm.org/entry-level-applicants/

 

When she would have done all this, given the stuff that's gone on, I don't know. But if she does indeed have the CPM certification then, yes, she has a reasonable amount of practical experience. I would think, in fact, that that much experience could qualify her fairly well to go to Central America and help out as an assistant and learn from the local non-medically-trained midwives, of whom there are many in rural areas, who'd have plenty to teach her from their much longer experience plus knowledge to impart about local conditions and health practices and so on. I can see her eventually being useful in some capacity if she went there as a trained learner with all the experience that a CPM certification apparently provides.

 

If not, though, then not. And, of course, provided she actually is pretty fluent in Spanish. Although I don't know when that really would have happened either.

 

Are they lying about the CPM certification or did they get somebody to fudge and attest to experience she doesn't have to get the certification? Well, they've lied and fudged before. On the other hand, she's been working toward this for years, so maybe she has done this stuff.

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BitterApple

BitterApple

How is Jill ever going to become fluent in Spanish unless she stays in a freaking Spanish-speaking country for longer than three weeks at a time? Language classes are great, but the best way to learn is through immersion. The Dullards are trotting home for months at a time. They're likely not retaining anything they've learned if they're not actually practicing with native Spanish speakers.

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FakeJoshDuggar

FakeJoshDuggar

Here's the short of it: Jill went to an online "college" that wasn't accredited. Raise your hand if you want someone who has almost zero real education to give you prenatal advice and deliver your child? Jill didn't even know that her own child was in fetal distress, so how could she know anyone else's baby was in distress? She can't. She's going to end up killing someone(s) because Jeebus.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

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(edited)

 

 

 

 

Well, if she actually is a CPM, certified, then she has had a significant amount of practical experience. (This is why I've been in doubt about whether she actually has attained the certification -- over the past few years it's kind of hard to see how she could have assembled this much experience, in my opinion, but anyway ...)

 

I disagree that the clinical experience required to sit for the CPM exam is at all significant.  It is very minimal, IMO.  I had more experience than Jill on my 2 month medical school rotation in OB/GYN and Peds and I was in no way ready to set out on my own to provide prenatal care or perform deliveries, particularly at home where help isn't right at hand and the sorts of meds and supplies one might need in an emergency are not readily available.  All Jill needed was to be present at 40 deliveries, TOTAL and only do half of those.  I had that as a medical student, I delivered about 25 kids as a student and was present for about 100 more.  As an intern, I personally delivered 162 babies vaginally and, still, no way did I feel capable of hanging up a shingle and starting a practice. The CNM program in my town requires 50 vaginal deliveries for graduation and then, most hospitals require another 50 or so before a CNM is allowed to do deliveries without a more experienced colleague there to proctor her. 

 

The most common complication in modern obstetrics is postpartum hemorrhage which occurs in between 1-4% of all births.  Presuming Jill was present at 80 births and that her patients were 'average', that means she has seen anywhere from 0-3 patients with this complication and managed maybe 2 cases.  Would you want to be her third?  Pre eclampsia occurs in about 5%, the risk of breech is about the same.  No wonder it didn't occur to Jill that her baby might be breech, it's quite possible she'd never seen it.  No matter how much reading, no matter how smart or motivated; the only way to learn to manage these situations comfortably is to get the actual experience.  Many CPM's think it is fine to get their experience on the job with no supervision or adequate resources for handling them.  I don't.

 

The other issue with CPM training is that it is often one on one, meaning that a single practitioner does all the training and observation to declare the trainee prepared.  In nurse midwifery or residency, every trainee is exposed to dozens of practitioners and is evaluated by dozens, too.  It is much harder to slide by when under that kind of scrutiny. I presume Jill's last preceptor, not the one who lost her license, attested to her experience. Though, just because her first preceptor lost her license doesn't mean that the CPM exam crowd wouldn't let her attest to Jill's experience.  It was the state of Arkansas that took away her license, I suspect the CPM organization supported her and felt she'd been treated unfairly by the board of licensure, they're known for claiming conspiracy against CPM's whenever one gets censured. When the responsibility for verifying experience and ability is placed in the hands of a single practitioner, especially when she has developed a close personal relationship with the trainee; there is a lot of opportunity for her judgment to be clouded by her feelings.  My own experience with CPM's involve women who, like Jill, are strict fundies who don't trust traditional medicine and who honestly believe that because God called them to be midwives, it is not possible for them to harm anyone.  I've been told this more than once by CPM's who brought a woman to the hospital after a disastrous experience at home.  I believe that the Good Lord guides my hands, too, I know He does; but I'd never be so arrogant as to presume that I'm infallible like some of these folks.  I'm Catholic, we believe that there can be infallibility, but I don't think I've got it.

 

Finally, all that getting her CPM means is that Jill passed a test.  I doesn't mean she has a license to practice in Arkansas where CPM's are legal.  Just as a graduate of nurse midwifery school or medical school is a CNM or MD; it doesn't mean they can legally practice.  For physicians, anyway, it is not possible to be licensed to practice without at least a year's experience, usually as an intern.  I'd be interested to see if Jill ever applies for an Arkansas license, let alone ever uses it.

Edited by doodlebug
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