Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[AstridM]

8 minutes ago, SMama said:

I agree, once they are given their fair share of the money they made. 😉

Let’s not forget that JB will be supporting Anna and the innocent M’s forever, long after he is gone. Anna will never seek employment, and the FF will be unemployable once he serves his time. Too many resources funneled to just one of the 19. 
 

You are a much better person than me. 😂

True, they also have Josh’s big family to support for many years. And what if something happens to Bin or Austin? Joy and Jessa seem intent on not working and being broodmares, so then what? I wish Bin and Jessa would move closer to his parents so their daughters could see women who are able to choose to work. Less Duggar influence overall would be a net positive. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by AstridM

[SMama]

3 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Less Duggar influence overall would be a net positive. 

You will have to pry the Duggar influence from Jessa’s cold, dead hands. 

[Meow Mix]

I have no issue with them paying for Josh's lawyers for the trial or even for one appeal.  But at some point, they are going to have to cut their losses.  Even his siblings for the most part know he did what he is accused of though I am sure some still think the sentence he got was too harsh.

As for the money, I do think JB thinks he has given each kid their fair share by doling out broken down starter homes, junker vehicles, and the occasional crusty mattress out of the hoarder warehouse.  Doing that allows him to maintain control rather than giving them cash that they can spend how they like.

[BetyBee]

Though it would have been nice for JB to put some of the TLC money away for the kids, he was apparently under no legal obligation to do so. If he and Michelle want to waste money on FF's defense and subsequent appeals, they can do so. Essentially, it's their money to waste. It's unconscionable that they prepared none of them to be educated to where they can support themselves, but they are not under any legal obligation to give their adult children a penny, unless the adult kids want to sue and become ostracized like Jill and Derick. There have always been parents who were foolish or stingy with money. There is apparently, enough money to keep them fed, clothed and housed. They all have the latest electronics and the lost boys have cars to destroy as they drive like maniacs all over the property. There are a lot of LLCs in the various kids' names, which it appears is how control freak JB keeps them in line. It's not the way I conduct my adult life with regard to my kids, but JB is what he has always been - selfish and money grubbing. Michelle checked out years ago. It's a sad story, but most of the kids seem satisfied with the status quo. JMHO.

[Gemma Violet]

I always thought Jim Bob giving his children houses was a Jim Bob thing to control them, but I was watching a video of Jinger (I think it was the one where she's interviewed by that conservative vlogger) and someone in the comment section who IIRC was a former member of the IBLP said that because Gothard preached that you must never be in debt, when it came to houses,  he proclaimed that fathers should gift houses to their children.  That way, no debt.  Which might make sense if you have a lot of money and only one or two children, but there's no way non-Duggars could afford to do that with 10 to 20 children each.  Of course, take it with a grain of salt as it was in a comment section, but I could imagine Gothard saying that.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[Bethany]

2 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Which might make sense if you have a lot of money and only one or two children, but there's no way non-Duggars could afford to do that with 10 to 20 children each.  Of course, take it with a grain of salt as it was in a comment section, but I could imagine Gothard saying that.

I had a message board acquaintance a few years back who as far as I know didn't follow Gothard but she did say that part of her religious beliefs was that you don't go into debt to own a house.  In her case that meant she was eternally going to be renting as she did not live in an area where you can buy a house for 50K and her father clearly didn't gift her one. I don't understand a religion (or cult) that cares whether you rent or have a mortgage - either way you are paying someone!

[Salacious Kitty]

I think Gothard deferred to his financial guru, a guy named Jim Sammons, who JB quotes religiously. He is the one responsible for the debt-free mantra. 

And one has to remember it was actually possible to do when he first proposed it back in the 80s. 

I'd be interested to know how many mortgages someone like Jason has taken out on all his flip properties. JB got him started, but he has grown his business. Likely not debt-free. 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I don't understand a religion (or cult) that cares whether you rent or have a mortgage - either way you are paying someone!

I don't get it either, but I think a lot of it circles back to the idea of control. They're hypersensitive about anyone having perceived control over them, be it the bank, a landlord, a boss, a school, etc. 

In a former job I had to deal with a fair number of fundies, and I've never forgotten an example one of them used for financial independence. It was basically argued that a godly young man could work for his father (at his father's own business of course) and then also have a job in a "sandwich shop" for a set amount of hours each week, and that would be enough in X number of years to have enough money to pay for a house without a mortgage. [The morality of working for and with heathens at the sandwich shop was never addressed. 😂]

I live in an area that has fairly low property prices, but wages are lower here too. There's no way in hell most people here could afford a home with that model, and even if they did, I'd find it doubtful they'd have the savings they'd need to weather an actual financial emergency once they bought the house. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Zella

[Gemma Violet]

I was watching a Duggar video on Youtube and someone in the comments section said today that they saw Anna this weekend visiting Josh along with one of the sisters (this may have been Anna's sister--see below).  He also said: the children were not there; Josh lost a little weight; Anna and Josh hugged but did not kiss; and Anna and her sister seemed shocked and startled when one of the guards and another inmate got into a shouting match.  That's pretty much it.  Take it with a grain of salt.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[Gemma Violet]

WOACB says there were two visits this weekend by Anna.  Friday by herself and Saturday with her sister Pricilla.  Anna was all done up, hair and makeup.  There was an intense conversation and Josh was wiping away tears.

 

[ChristmasCandy]

10 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

WOACB says there were two visits this weekend by Anna.  Friday by herself and Saturday with her sister Pricilla.  Anna was all done up, hair and makeup.  There was an intense conversation and Josh was wiping away tears.

 

I will believe WOACB when Jesus and the Virgin Mary tell me what she said is the truth until then she is just a lying liar who lies.

[BetyBee]

6 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

I will believe WOACB when Jesus and the Virgin Mary tell me what she said is the truth until then she is just a lying liar who lies.

I agree! Although I do like to imagine that if it was true, Josh was wiping away tears as Anna told him she was divorcing him and that Priscilla came along to support Anna. But there's no way that's what happened! A girl can dream though!

[crazy8s]

5 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I agree! Although I do like to imagine that if it was true, Josh was wiping away tears as Anna told him she was divorcing him and that Priscilla came along to support Anna. But there's no way that's what happened! A girl can dream though!

Sadly, this made me laugh picturing Priscilla in a support person role, my imagination is like how would that play out.....

She would appear the person least ready to be supportive. But then I think she must be solid enough in spewing the brainwashed crap of gothard consistently and enthusiastically since fab dave is still with her.

[ChristmasCandy]

🤢🤮In my dreams Priscilla was there as a diversion for Anna so she could get FF magic starter juice for number 8🤢🤮

[merylinkid]

43 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

🤢🤮In my dreams Priscilla was there as a diversion for Anna so she could get FF magic starter juice for number 8🤢🤮

No wonder FF was crying.

[Heathen]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:42 AM, quarks said:

My guess? She's convinced herself that the crime was committed by Caleb Williams, and that the appeals court will immediately recognize this and free Josh within the next couple of months - allowing her to get pregnant again. This is obviously deeply unrealistic on any number of levels, and ignores that even the best case scenario won't really free Josh, but just order a second trial, which might or might not change the outcome.

But I don't think she's capable of believing anything else right now. And so, I don't think she's going to start grieving about not having a baby this year for at least a few more months.

 

It would be easier to believe that than to acknowledge that her husband is a pedophile. Ofsmuggar is fundie garbage, but I do feel sorry for her in that one respect. 

[Scarlett45]

Hearing of this exchange I think of the position Priscilla was being put in. Even if she wanted to help out her sister, having to be witness to Josh's crying and their private conversation couldn't have been fun for her. I have not an iota of sympathy for Josh, so his tears dont move me. 

[ginger90]

17 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

WOACB says there were two visits this weekend by Anna.  Friday by herself and Saturday with her sister Pricilla.  Anna was all done up, hair and makeup.  There was an intense conversation and Josh was wiping away tears.

 

Is this supposedly from the person who happens to always be visiting at the same time as FF gets visitors? 

[ChristmasCandy]

Okay everyone here who thinks that FF will be a changed man 😂 when ever he gets out of prison please raise your hand. Yeah I didn't think so.

[Salacious Kitty]

43 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

Okay everyone here who thinks that FF will be a changed man 😂 when ever he gets out of prison please raise your hand. Yeah I didn't think so.

Oh, he'll be changed. Just not for the better.

[jacourt]

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

[Salacious Kitty]

7 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

I think there's a monthly limit.

[sagittarius sue]

15 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

I believe it's 4 hours total per month.

[Absolom]

They get points that equate to visits allowed.  He could lose points for infractions.  Each prison has its own rules.  I'm pretty sure it's closer to four visits a month than four hours.  

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, Absolom said:

They get points that equate to visits allowed.  He could lose points for infractions.  Each prison has its own rules.  I'm pretty sure it's closer to four visits a month than four hours.  

Assuming there are no disciplinary issues, 4 visits a month sounds about right. Visits may be 4hrs each, with less time available on holidays. (Knowledge courtesy of my visit to Stateville in law school over a decade ago so don’t quote me!)

[ginger90]

From the BOP site:

Visiting Duration

By law, an inmate gets at least four hours of visiting time per month but usually the prison can provide more. However, the Warden can restrict the length of visits or the number of people who can visit at once, to avoid overcrowding in the visiting room.

 

Specific to FCI Seagoville:

Frequency of Visits and Number of Visitors

Inmates may receive visits during scheduled visiting periods. Inmates may have up to five visitors each visit. All visitors, including children, will be assigned an individual seat. Visiting points will be modified to six (6) points per month effective June 1, 2016. Therefore points will be calculated based on each visit regardless of duration. One (1) point per day on Monday and/or Friday. Two (2) points per day on weekends and holidays.

I didn’t find anything more recent than this.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by ginger90

[quarks]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:50 PM, Heathen said:

It would be easier to believe that than to acknowledge that her husband is a pedophile. Ofsmuggar is fundie garbage, but I do feel sorry for her in that one respect. 

I don't think she's emotionally or mentally able to acknowledge that.

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I don't think she's emotionally or mentally able to acknowledge that.

If that’s the case, maybe she shouldn’t have 7 kids in her care. . . 

[GeeGolly]

Personally I don't think the FF is a pedophile. IMO he's a sexual deviant whose unhealthy interest is sex has escalated. Either way he is a creep and a criminal, and behind bars is right where he should be.

As far as Anna, IMO her brain is protecting her right now. She thinks her has world has crashed down around her but her brain knows that isn't quite true. The minute she acknowledges Josh for who he really is, that is when her world truly crashes. That is when she has to make real decisions. That is when she realizes she can't stay with Josh. That is when she realizes she is a single, unemployed mother of 7. That is when she realizes God doesn't favor special Fundies. That is when she realizes she has to start all over.

Until Anna's strong enough to handle all that her brain is keeping her from going there.

[Salacious Kitty]

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

[Future Cat Lady]

5 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

She’s also surrounded by people who will make sure she still supports him. Her parents, JB and M, David W. and her sister will never suggest she gets a divorce.

[AstridM]

14 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

I really don’t care if she ever wakes up, frankly, but she has 7 kids. Thank goodness Pest is in prison for years because she wouldn’t be able to protect her kids, imo. 

[Salacious Kitty]

37 minutes ago, AstridM said:

I really don’t care if she ever wakes up, frankly, but she has 7 kids. Thank goodness Pest is in prison for years because she wouldn’t be able to protect her kids, imo. 

She wouldn't feel the NEED to protect them. Sadly. 

[AstridM]

27 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

She wouldn't feel the NEED to protect them. Sadly. 

And that’s the main issue. 

[Salacious Kitty]

31 minutes ago, AstridM said:

And that’s the main issue. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out how she got to that place. 

[beckie]

And the fact that she takes all seven kids to jail to see him, and has no qualms with him holding the baby the entire time, says she DOESN'T feel the need to protect them.

[Albanyguy]

7 hours ago, beckie said:

And the fact that she takes all seven kids to jail to see him, and has no qualms with him holding the baby the entire time, says she DOESN'T feel the need to protect them.

I wonder about the effect these visits are having on the kids. Even though it’s a low-security facility, it still must be confusing and frightening for them. And I can’t believe that Josh cares that much about seeing them (except for photo ops, he barely seemed to interact with them at home). 
 

I think that it’s possible that, after the initial shock of Daddy suddenly being gone, the kids settled down and now don’t seem to miss him at all, so Anna drags them to the prison to make sure they don’t forget him and that they are made aware of how their family is being persecuted: “Daddy is here because he was blamed for bad things someone else did! He’s suffering for the sins of others, just like Jesus did! And he’s saving souls here! You should be proud that he’s a hero for the Lord!”

Or perhaps Anna brings the kids (or her sister Priscilla) because she and Josh really have nothing to say to each other and she needs a buffer to avoid sitting in uncomfortable silence.

 

[merylinkid]

Anna was all about how GREAT God was when she was Crown Princess.   But, I do feel a smidge sorry for her.  Just a smidge.   Can you imagine praying your whole life that God and your parents would find the perfect man for you and it turns out who God thinks you should spend the rest of your life with and have kids with - is someone who does what Josh did?   How do you wrap your head around that?  

Anna would not be the first wife to be sailing happily along the River of Denial when her husband goes to jail for a heinous thing.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

I wonder about the effect these visits are having on the kids. Even though it’s a low-security facility, it still must be confusing and frightening for them. And I can’t believe that Josh cares that much about seeing them (except for photo ops, he barely seemed to interact with them at home). 
 

I think that it’s possible that, after the initial shock of Daddy suddenly being gone, the kids settled down and now don’t seem to miss him at all, so Anna drags them to the prison to make sure they don’t forget him and that they are made aware of how their family is being persecuted: “Daddy is here because he was blamed for bad things someone else did! He’s suffering for the sins of others, just like Jesus did! And he’s saving souls here! You should be proud that he’s a hero for the Lord!”

Or perhaps Anna brings the kids (or her sister Priscilla) because she and Josh really have nothing to say to each other and she needs a buffer to avoid sitting in uncomfortable silence.

 

I really don’t know. Many children of incarcerated parents visit on holidays. In my own minimal experience with this, my cousin who was unjustly convicted of murdering her abusive husband- her kids did come visit her (their dad, her first husband would bring them, or their grandmother would). But she was an involved loving Mom and much missed family member; and she’s been out far longer than she was in. I went on a few dates with a guy in college who’s father was in Angola for murder, and he mentioned his mom taking him to visit although his father went in when he was a baby and never parented him. 
 

I say all this to say, of all the things Anna does, taking the kids for holiday visits isn’t hard or necessarily harmful to them. I do think being in denial about what Josh has done is harmful. I can also admit taking your child to visit an incarcerated parent who has been convicted of a nonviolent crime or unjustly convicted (like in the case of my cousin where it was self defense after years of abuse) is vastly different than the type of crime Josh has been convicted of. 
 

If Anna didn’t take the children I wouldn’t blame her either, but if the kids want to go and see their father a few times a year I can’t blame them for that. If they don’t want to go (for those that are big enough) I would respect that too. But we know this isn’t about the kids, this is about Anna!

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I really don’t know. Many children of incarcerated parents visit on holidays. In my own minimal experience with this, my cousin who was unjustly convicted of murdering her abusive husband- her kids did come visit her (their dad, her first husband would bring them, or their grandmother would). But she was an involved loving Mom and much missed family member; and she’s been out far longer than she was in. I went on a few dates with a guy in college who’s father was in Angola for murder, and he mentioned his mom taking him to visit although his father went in when he was a baby and never parented him. 
 

I say all this to say, of all the things Anna does, taking the kids for holiday visits isn’t hard or necessarily harmful to them. I do think being in denial about what Josh has done is harmful. I can also admit taking your child to visit an incarcerated parent who has been convicted of a nonviolent crime or unjustly convicted (like in the case of my cousin where it was self defense after years of abuse) is vastly different than the type of crime Josh has been convicted of. 
 

If Anna didn’t take the children I wouldn’t blame her either, but if the kids want to go and see their father a few times a year I can’t blame them for that. If they don’t want to go (for those that are big enough) I would respect that too. But we know this isn’t about the kids, this is about Anna!

If nothing else, taking the kids to see their father means they will grow up with a realistic understanding of where he is.  Kids tend to fill in the blanks anyway, and, if they didn't see their father handcuffed and in prison, they might think he'd abandoned them entirely or that he was on a prolonged business trip or any number of things.  It is better for them to know where he is and to have the opportunity to visit if they want.

Prince Harry, in The Spare, talked about the death of his mother and how, for years, he didn't think she was really dead, but that she had run away to escape the paparazzi and had started a new life and would show up to get him and his brother someday.  Kids will try to come up with an explanation for stuff they don't understand; so letting the kids see their father in prison is the best way to make sure they understand it as best they can.

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, Notabug said:

If nothing else, taking the kids to see their father means they will grow up with a realistic understanding of where he is.  Kids tend to fill in the blanks anyway, and, if they didn't see their father handcuffed and in prison, they might think he'd abandoned them entirely or that he was on a prolonged business trip or any number of things.  It is better for them to know where he is and to have the opportunity to visit if they want.

Prince Harry, in The Spare, talked about the death of his mother and how, for years, he didn't think she was really dead, but that she had run away to escape the paparazzi and had started a new life and would show up to get him and his brother someday.  Kids will try to come up with an explanation for stuff they don't understand; so letting the kids see their father in prison is the best way to make sure they understand it as best they can.

I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good point. Thanks for sharing that. Of course I am sorry that any child has been put in that position, the kids didn’t do anything wrong and certainly didn’t choose their parent; but yes it’s better for them to know the truth IMO. 

[Salacious Kitty]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good point. Thanks for sharing that. Of course I am sorry that any child has been put in that position, the kids didn’t do anything wrong and certainly didn’t choose their parent; but yes it’s better for them to know the truth IMO. 

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

I meant the truth about where he is, like @Notabug mentioned. 
 

I do see what you’re saying though. 

[Salacious Kitty]

I don't think Anna would deprive her kids of their father, no matter how heinous his crimes. So, they wouldn't have to make up scenarios like Prince Harry did after Diana died. 

Anna's denial is another topic. 

[Future Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

Actually, we have no idea what Anna really thinks or what she said to the kids. Most snarkers think Anna is in complete denial, but that’s speculation not a cold hard fact.

 

[Salacious Kitty]

21 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Actually, we have no idea what Anna really thinks or what she said to the kids. Most snarkers think Anna is in complete denial, but that’s speculation not a cold hard fact.

 

Anna's last Insta post was indicative of her mindset. It said that there was "more to the story." Given that FF's defense is trying to blame Caleb Williams, I think that's where Anna was pointing. I don't believe that she's accepted his guilt. Who knows what she's told the kids? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[GeeGolly]

The kids are safe. They'll find out the truth some day and process it in whatever way they can. He's in jail and they know that. When a child loses a parent to death, how they died doesn't matter to them then, the fact they died is already too much to deal with. Same is likely true to the M&Ms. Their dad is in jail and won't live with them for a long time. That's enough for their kid brains to deal with right now.

Harry at age 12 was dealing with a lot. He had a family that pretty much didn't miss a step in living life as usual, that British stiff upper lip. The contrast between how the public mourned his mom and his family (didn't really) mourn his mom was confusing. Hoping his mom was temporarily hiding out helped him make sense of the contrast and helped him deal with losing his mom.

[BetyBee]

Sometimes I think of Josh's stupid proposal to Anna in that restaurant with her parents. She seemed completely surprised by it and I think she was trapped into saying yes. TLC was there filming as well, so they are also culpable. Clearly her parents had approved this and the cameras were rolling. Plus she was young and a fan of the Duggars. Her body language seemed to me that she was pulling away at first, but once she said yes, it switched and she was all in. Remember the disgusting hand sex we were then subjected to? How different her life would have been if she had other options! Her parents are as horrible as JB and Meech. She had baby fever and Josh went along with that, so at least she has her kids. I hope that as the years go by, she learns to stand on her own at least somewhat. Josh's sentence is a reprieve for her, imo. 

[Future Cat Lady]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna's last Insta post was indicative of her mindset. It said that there was "more to the story." Given that FF's defense is trying to blame Caleb Williams, I think that's where Anna was pointing. I don't believe that she's accepted his guilt. Who knows what she's told the kids? 

That was months ago. Who knows what her mindset is now. Also, I would not be surprised that she knows he did it, but stands by him anyway. She stood by him after knowing about the molestations and the cheating.

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Sometimes I think of Josh's stupid proposal to Anna in that restaurant with her parents. She seemed completely surprised by it and I think she was trapped into saying yes. TLC was there filming as well, so they are also culpable. Clearly her parents had approved this and the cameras were rolling. Plus she was young and a fan of the Duggars. Her body language seemed to me that she was pulling away at first, but once she said yes, it switched and she was all in. Remember the disgusting hand sex we were then subjected to? How different her life would have been if she had other options! Her parents are as horrible as JB and Meech. She had baby fever and Josh went along with that, so at least she has her kids. I hope that as the years go by, she learns to stand on her own at least somewhat. Josh's sentence is a reprieve for her, imo. 

From what I remember, Josh didn’t even ask Anna directly if she wanted to court, he asked her Dad, and her Dad basically told her she was courting Josh. And they were long distance, so she had no clue who he was as a person and was in hook/line/sinker into being fundy royalty. I believe she did want to marry him, not because she was into him, she was a young woman who wanted to have sex, be married, have babies and the STATUS of being a Duggar (and the first Duggar in law) was so tempting. 
 

Compare this to a situation like Joe and Kendra, they lived nearby, Joe asked KENDRA if she wanted to court him, and she seemed genuinely excited to be courting Joe, not just a Duggar. 
 

Anna is standing by Josh primarily for her pride, secondly because she has actual affection for him I think. But only she knows what’s in her head.