Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[hathorlive]

13 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Split the difference and give him 10? Although Madyson would still be in Smuggar's preferred prepubescent age range when he gets out. What, if anything, can be done to protect her?

I'm deluding myself, but I hope the judge realizes that this man is a danger to his kids.  He's shown a propensity for young girls in both his victims and the CP he downloaded.  I am really hoping he gets closer to 15.  But I do that before every case I pour my heart and soul into and I'm always shocked and saddened at the actual sentencing.  I'll be happy with ten but devastated with a lower sentence.

[hathorlive]

13 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm still shooting for 19. For both the irony of the number and their youngest child will be 19. Also both Anna and Josh will be in their 50s.

If they're looking at the molestations as pedophilia, I don't see why it won't be a high number. It shows a history of hands on assault, but still an escalation in depravity.

10 days and counting. 

I have to think at some point, Anna is mentally whining that her best breeding years are going to be lost and she's not going to "outdo" Michelle with 22 babies, she gave birth to.  And in that same place, Meech is thinking "Yes, I still hold the record".  Because that's all the only value they have to their cult.  

I wish these crimes got longer sentences.  You can thank your government for being wishy washy for not wanting "harsher" sentences for a crime that is largely a white male problem.  It used to be 90% of convicted molesters were white.  Now its more like 85%.  But please write your elected officials and ask for harsher sentences. 

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Yes, and if she did get a job it would not surprise me if there would be some people who would do their best to get her fired. 

I'm not 100% sure I woudn't be one of them.

I doubt I would actively try to get her fired, but I would not want her around any child in my care.

Anna hasn't done anything wrong (that we know of), but she hasn't done anything right, either.

I think she's weak, gullible, sheltered, and not terribly bright, so I cut her some slack, but, again, I wouldn't want her around any vulnerable population.

She's a religious bigot, and I would expect her to prosletize whenever she had the chance; it's part of her belief system. I would expect her to be have significant problems dealing with people outside of her cult -- people of different ethnicities, religious groups, sexual orientations, etc. I see no ability (or interest) on her part to move beyond her tiny sheltered world, and I think her beliefs are too extreme even for a Christian school.

She's still in denial about Josh which, while weird and creepy, is not entirely unrelateable. On the other hand, she has shown zero empathy for any of Josh's victims -- including his sisters. While that might be acceptable (although not great) if she were working in an ice cream shop, it's a non-starter (IMO) for working with children.

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

Yes for sure. Just commenting on the job thing. 

For what it’s worth, in California (I’m not sure about other states) single parents who qualify for TANF (welfare) are required to be working OR in training or school . During that time, they also qualify for SNAP (food stamps) and subsidized childcare. The state pays for their work/training/school. Some ambitious parents were even able to get nursing degrees. No idea if Arkansas offers similar benefits (I doubt it) but even parents with no previous education or work experience can make it work. 

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Yes, and if she did get a job it would not surprise me if there would be some people who would do their best to get her fired. 

If she got a job in a warehouse or back of store position, I don’t think anyone would bother her. It would also be considered harassment and trespassing if people actually followed her to work.  All the Duggar sons seem to be out there in public “working” and I don’t think people are harassing them in their workplaces. I doubt anyone ever even approached Josh when he was at the car lot. Plenty hate him, but they didn’t go and confront  him in person.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I'm not 100% sure I woudn't be one of them.

I doubt I would actively try to get her fired, but I would not want her around any child in my care.

Anna hasn't done anything wrong (that we know of), but she hasn't done anything right, either.

I think she's weak, gullible, sheltered, and not terribly bright, so I cut her some slack, but, again, I wouldn't want her around any vulnerable population.

She's a religious bigot, and I would expect her to prosletize whenever she had the chance; it's part of her belief system. I would expect her to be have significant problems dealing with people outside of her cult -- people of different ethnicities, religious groups, sexual orientations, etc. I see no ability (or interest) on her part to move beyond her tiny sheltered world, and I think her beliefs are too extreme even for a Christian school.

She's still in denial about Josh which, while weird and creepy, is not entirely unrelateable. On the other hand, she has shown zero empathy for any of Josh's victims -- including his sisters. While that might be acceptable (although not great) if she were working in an ice cream shop, it's a non-starter (IMO) for working with children.

Oh - for sure she absolutely shouldn’t be working with children in any capacity. But I don’t think people would actively try to interfere if she was doing other kinds of work.

[GeeGolly]

Anna has no reason to work. JB will support her and working isn't really part of the female Fundy mindset.

If Anna didn't have JB she'd have a hard time making a go of it alone, even with all the entitlement services available. She has seven kids - most states have a financial cutoff after a certain number of kids. In some states its after one kid. And she would certainly have a hard time supporting 7 kids on a minimum wage job.

I'm glad that the kids don't have additional stressors to deal with on top of everything else.

[emmawoodhouse]

Well, according to one of FF's character letters, the kids cry for him every night. While I think the author took some creative license, I do think that at least the older boys DO miss him, and that's a stressor. I can't imagine what Mack feels. 

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Well, according to one of FF's character letters, the kids cry for him every night. While I think the author took some creative license, I do think that at least the older boys DO miss him, and that's a stressor. I can't imagine what Mack feels. 

Wait until she’s old enough to read about the details of what he downloaded/watched. Maybe she won’t, but I can’t imagine not googling it at some point if that were my dad . 

[SmallTownMom]

I just read the letters Michelle and Anna submitted to the judge.

Oh my.

Michelle's was terrible, and Anna's was worse.  I thought Priscilla was the "special" one in that family, but Anna is very stunted as well.

Josh cleaned up cracker crumbs?  Oh good, now I see why you forgave him for cheating and continued to have kids with him.  What a swell guy!

Does anybody else remember an episode where Josh and Anna had friends over for dinner (I think they were in DC then).  Josh wanted something from the fridge, so a pregnant Anna CRAWLED under the table to get it for him!  Many other times, we saw Anna pushing a stroller and carrying things while Josh just strolled along in front of her.

But at least she has a husband.

[CalicoKitty]

Question:  Is Michell's signature with the heart as the dot actually her legal signature?

[Cinnabon]

13 minutes ago, SmallTownMom said:

  I thought Priscilla was the "special" one in that family, but Anna is very stunted as well.

And both of these women are homeschooling a litter of children 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️.

Anna’s letter - Josh only helped to clean up cracker crumbles. Clearly it was too big a job for him to handle alone.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Cinnabon

[iwantcookies]

14 minutes ago, SmallTownMom said:

 

But at least she has a husband.

Not anymore (laughs evilly)

Oh wait JB is probably acting like her husband now!

[emmawoodhouse]

37 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

Question:  Is Michell's signature with the heart as the dot actually her legal signature?

Yes. She signs her LLCs that way. How stunted is she? 

50 minutes ago, SmallTownMom said:

Does anybody else remember an episode where Josh and Anna had friends over for dinner (I think they were in DC then).  Josh wanted something from the fridge, so a pregnant Anna CRAWLED under the table to get it for him!  Many other times, we saw Anna pushing a stroller and carrying things while Josh just strolled along in front of her.

But at least she has a husband.

I'm pretty sure that's when David and Priscilla visited. Smuggar has always made Anna sing for her supper, starting on their wedding night when she hauled luggage around.

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yes. She signs her LLCs that way. How stunted is she? 

I'm pretty sure that's when David and Priscilla visited. Smuggar has always made Anna sing for her supper, starting on their wedding night when she hauled luggage around.

Making your pregnant wife crawl under the table to fetch you something is beyond deplorable . I wonder what David and Priscilla thought about it? Is that something Anna’s mom did?

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Making your pregnant wife crawl under the table to fetch you something is beyond deplorable . I wonder what David and Priscilla thought about it? Is that something Anna’s mom did?

Suzette keeps her mouth shut. Anything we know about the senior Kellers comes from Mike. The Keller spawn who have spoken of them just praise them in general terms. But I'm sure Suzette has been dutiful and compliant.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, SmallTownMom said:

Does anybody else remember an episode where Josh and Anna had friends over for dinner (I think they were in DC then).  Josh wanted something from the fridge, so a pregnant Anna CRAWLED under the table to get it for him!  Many other times, we saw Anna pushing a stroller and carrying things while Josh just strolled along in front of her.

Yes I remember. And let’s not forget on their HONEYMOON, Josh had her carrying all of the luggage, struggling with both of their bags while he just held the door!

Josh was always scum, and I cannot ever remember a time where I remember him treating Anna well or being sweet to her. JD, Joe, even Josiah I could see being nice husbands on a regular basis. Why is Anna so attached to him again?? (Rhetorical question I know)

[CandyXmasTree]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

For what it’s worth, in California (I’m not sure about other states) single parents who qualify for TANF (welfare) are required to be working OR in training or school . During that time, they also qualify for SNAP (food stamps) and subsidized childcare. The state pays for their work/training/school. Some ambitious parents were even able to get nursing degrees. No idea if Arkansas offers similar benefits (I doubt it) but even parents with no previous education or work experience can make it work. 

I just checked the Arkansas welfare site and the parent must either be working or going to school and if the kids are old enough must register in a public school to get TANF money.

Edited May 16, 2022 by CandyXmasTree

[iwantcookies]

https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2022/05/15/josh-duggar-reportedly-verbally-threatened-abused-by-fellow-inmate-duggar-neighbor-claims-inmates-are-stunned-by-joshs-character-convinced-of-his-innocence/

Oh cry me a river Joshua!

[Cinnabon]

27 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2022/05/15/josh-duggar-reportedly-verbally-threatened-abused-by-fellow-inmate-duggar-neighbor-claims-inmates-are-stunned-by-joshs-character-convinced-of-his-innocence/

Oh cry me a river Joshua!

Even other criminals hate abuse of small children, Josh. He deserves to be shamed and confronted with what he’s done at every turn. Maybe if he’d been treated that way after the last scandals, he would’ve thought harder about downloading CP this time.  

Edited May 16, 2022 by Cinnabon

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Even other criminals hate abuse of small children, Josh. He deserves to be shamed and confronted with what he’s done at every turn. Maybe if he’d been treated that way after the last scandals, he would’ve thought harder about downloading CP this time.  

IMO, Josh was confronted at every turn, but anyway, I'm not sure any amount of shame or punishment would have changed the outcome, or not by much anyway. Maybe things would have escalated more slowly, or even more quickly, but I think they would have escalated.

If the molestations and the CSA were his only crimes, them IMO, this is likely the best outcome (short of no offenses). By the time folks like Josh get caught there is usually much more devastation left in their wake. I'm certainly not meaning to discount the damage that the FF has done, I'm just saying it could have been worse (hopefully it wasn't).

And here we are - Josh behind bars. Josh with no internet. Josh with no access to women or children. The only crumbs Josh can clean up are his own. To me, that's a good thing.

[Gweilo]

I think that *if* Anna ever wants to get a job (unlikely), the only realistic way would be to work in some kind of family business doing back-end stuff. Not that I would condone working for JB, but given her circumstances it could be something like:

Help one of the various not-at-all-shady Duggar businesses with basic admin tasks like ordering raw materials, or answering emails, or inventory computer stuff. Probably unpaid.

Then, once she's got a little bit of experience, go work for another uber-Christian family-run business, perhaps get a bit of experience in rostering, or payroll.

Then perhaps another slightly bigger business being their all-around admin person. She'd probably only want to work for business that are openly super-Christian, but if she's in the back of house/admin arena, the general public aren't really going to find out where she is and start sending harassing letters.  I mean, I have no idea who does the accounts or logistics at my local family-run drycleaners so it can be a pretty anonymous job.

Anna is dependent on JB, so if he tells her to work for him, she'll have to do it. She should just try and leverage as much out of any situation as she can.

[BetyBee]

The easiest way for Anna to make money to support all her kids, would be to write a tell all. She's in far too much deep denial and JB would never allow that, so it's not going to happen. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

The easiest way for Anna to make money to support all her kids, would be to write a tell all. She's in far too much deep denial and JB would never allow that, so it's not going to happen. 

I'm not sure that would work. The money made off a book would likely only support them for a year or two. Then she would be back to square one, but without any Duggar support. Unless of course the Dillards would take Anna and the 7 kids in.

[sagittarius sue]

9 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2022/05/15/josh-duggar-reportedly-verbally-threatened-abused-by-fellow-inmate-duggar-neighbor-claims-inmates-are-stunned-by-joshs-character-convinced-of-his-innocence/

Oh cry me a river Joshua!

I enjoyed the comment re: the neighbor's letter, "what is this,  IBLP fan fiction?"

[BetyBee]

6 minutes ago, sagittarius sue said:

I enjoyed the comment re: the neighbor's letter, "what is this,  IBLP fan fiction?"

The pictures that accompany that article are hilarious. For example, Derick giving a thumbs up, Jana looking skeptical and JB posing with a "What can you do?" attitude. I don't believe for one second that the other inmates think Josh is innocent or that he's "saving" inmates from his cell. I do believe that he and his family are terrified of him being in federal prison. That part rings true. 

[FizzyPuff]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:36 AM, quarks said:

The widow story was mentioned just enough that I'm sure the basics of it - that Josh at one point sent this widow some sort of monthly payment - is probably true.

What I'm questioning is the reason for it. Because these folks are not good at charity - that's clear from these letters, where they all find very very basic acts of what might not even be charity completely amazing - which makes me think that something else was going on here.  Not necessarily nefarious, either - it could just be Josh quietly repaying a loan, for instance.

On Reddit they was speculating that Josh was having an affair with this woman and was paying her off for her silence, I wouldn’t be surprised but then again it’s Josh Duggar other than Anna whose obsessed with babies why would any woman touch that slug? 🤮

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

On Reddit they was speculating that Josh was having an affair with this woman and was paying her off for her silence, I wouldn’t be surprised but then again it’s Josh Duggar other than Anna whose obsessed with babies why would any woman touch that slug? 🤮

I would not be surprised either. Not saying that is what happened, but its not outside of the realm of possibility. As my grandfather used to say "some people live low to the ground", meaning there are scumbags everywhere. I have no doubt if Josh wanted to have an affair he could find someone. Even after everything was made public about him.

Serial killers have multiple people writing to them in prison and professing their love, so Josh having an affair and paying the woman off isn't far fetched. And this woman is a widow? People have been known to make irrational decisions in the face of grief, and if you have been taught your entire life that your existence revolves around pleasing a man, and the man dies, I would think you could be pretty lost.

[ginger90]

Note to self, if ever awaiting sentencing, get letters from inmates. I learn so much here.

[GeeGolly]

48 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Note to self, if ever awaiting sentencing, get letters from inmates. I learn so much here.

I'll write you a letter G90.

 

Dear Sir Judge ⚖️,

My sweet friend G90 is very diligent in writing on the boards. She has a heart to find facts for others and is quick to post the perfect photo for almost any discussion. We will miss her greatly during her sentence and have banned together with purpose of supporting her when she returns.

Sincerely, GG🧡

(came back to add, this does describe G90 and she is awesome)

Edited May 16, 2022 by GeeGolly

[Zella]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Sincerely, GG🧡

You need to add an i to the username so you can dot it with a heart. 😂

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not sure any amount of shame or punishment would have changed the outcome,

I agree. I think Josh actually enjoys humiliating people and that he is impervious to shame. So, someone confronting him and telling him that he is humiliating the family and shaming them or himself would probably just egg him on, IMO. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

18 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

For what it’s worth, in California (I’m not sure about other states) single parents who qualify for TANF (welfare) are required to be working OR in training or school . During that time, they also qualify for SNAP (food stamps) and subsidized childcare. The state pays for their work/training/school. Some ambitious parents were even able to get nursing degrees. No idea if Arkansas offers similar benefits (I doubt it) but even parents with no previous education or work experience can make it work. 

Most states have work exemptions for domiciliary parents with children under 5, or at least they did when I worked in social services many moons ago.

[AgathaC]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I agree. I think Josh actually enjoys humiliating people and that he is impervious to shame. So, someone confronting him and telling him that he is humiliating the family and shaming them or himself would probably just egg him on, IMO. 

My thoughts exactly. I can’t pretend to know him or have studied him that much, but he definitely ticks narcissism boxes and given what he’s done, he does seem to enjoy others’ pain. Also, I hold pretty much zero hope that he will ever see (let alone admit) that he did anything wrong. Those types of people are super-frustrating. I often think the worst punishment is for people to truly understand and feel what they did was wrong and have to live with it. But some people are incapable.

I’d be happy to be proven wrong (for his kids’ sakes) but I’m not counting on it.

[Scarlett45]

40 minutes ago, AgathaC said:

My thoughts exactly. I can’t pretend to know him or have studied him that much, but he definitely ticks narcissism boxes and given what he’s done, he does seem to enjoy others’ pain. Also, I hold pretty much zero hope that he will ever see (let alone admit) that he did anything wrong. Those types of people are super-frustrating. I often think the worst punishment is for people to truly understand and feel what they did was wrong and have to live with it. But some people are incapable.

I’d be happy to be proven wrong (for his kids’ sakes) but I’m not counting on it.

Josh feels no shame. Only anger for the consequences of getting caught. He may have a teeny tiny itty bitty minuscule thought to what this is doing to Michelle, but to his victims, Anna, his kids? Nah, he doesn’t care. Those people are below him on the social hierarchy and thus they don’t matter.  

[GeeGolly]

36 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Josh feels no shame. Only anger for the consequences of getting caught. He may have a teeny tiny itty bitty minuscule thought to what this is doing to Michelle, but to his victims, Anna, his kids? Nah, he doesn’t care. Those people are below him on the social hierarchy and thus they don’t matter.  

I agree, sort of. I don't think Josh feels bad for anyone while doing the deed. I don't think he feels bad for anyone after the fact. I do think he feels bad for Anna and the kids once his deeds become known. Not bad enough to never commit a crime again, but bad none the less.

[Zella]

I honestly don't think Anna, his kids, or his mother ever factor into his thinking. To me, he's frequently seemed to derive pleasure from embarrassing Anna. 

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I do think he feels bad for Anna and the kids once his deeds become known. Not bad enough to never commit a crime again, but bad none the less.

Id put this in the "anger at the consequences" part. The stain on his family/family name for what he has done is a consequence. 

 

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't think Anna, his kids, or his mother ever factor into his thinking. To me, he's frequently seemed to derive pleasure from embarrassing Anna. 

I do think Josh has some typical affection for Michelle as his mother. (some but not a lot) So if he was concerned about hurting anyone it would be her. He has often said embarrassing and mean things about Anna ON CAMERA so I don't think he cares about her at all, outside of some basic gratitude for cleaning up after him and the status as a "married father" brought him in the community.

[GeeGolly]

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't think Anna, his kids, or his mother ever factor into his thinking. To me, he's frequently seemed to derive pleasure from embarrassing Anna. 

I agree, like with micro aggressions flexing his headshipness.

I certainly could be wrong, but somehow I have the impression with big shit like this and when past scandals were public, he felt bad for them.

[Cinnabon]

Any thoughts on why Boob didn’t write a sentencing letter for FF? 

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Any thoughts on why Boob didn’t write a sentencing letter for FF? 

Haha! I think even JB knew better than to do that after he made a fool of himself on the stand.

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Haha! I think even JB knew better than to do that after he made a fool of himself on the stand.

He sure spent a lot on Josh’s lawyers. As the headship of his huge family, I would’ve expected him to write something in support of his oldest son/child. According to him, his word should take precedence over the judge’s, right?

[Natalie68]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:59 AM, Churchhoney said:

That's the general rule. But there's a big list of offenses to which that doesn't apply, though. (of course, in typical big-bureaucracy fashion, you can't so easily find that list!!)

And child-related sex offenses, including pornography, are one category of offenses that are ineligible for the good-time credits. 

 

That is really good to hear.  

[cmr2014]

54 minutes ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't think Anna, his kids, or his mother ever factor into his thinking. To me, he's frequently seemed to derive pleasure from embarrassing Anna. 

To me, Josh has always seemed like the most Gothard-y of all of the spouses in the Duggar oribit. I've always thought that he thinks of Anna as his servant, sex toy, and the incubator of his mini-me's. 

To me, it's always seemed like he didn't think Anna was very bright, and certainly never thought she was "hot." 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, cmr2014 said:

To me, Josh has always seemed like the most Gothard-y of all of the spouses in the Duggar oribit. I've always thought that he thinks of Anna as his servant, sex toy, and the incubator of his mini-me's. 

To me, it's always seemed like he didn't think Anna was very bright, and certainly never thought she was "hot." 

I agree. I think he probably thought she was pleasant and agreeable, which is what he wanted from a servant, sex toy and gestational carrier, but I don't think he particularly liked HER a lot. He just wanted to be married and the status that brought him in his community.

[SusanM]

On the subject of those letters - do they actually make any difference to the decision a judge makes with regard to sentencing?  A few years ago here in Canada there was a bit of controversy about whether victim impact statements were appropriate or not, I guess these kinds of letters are the other side of the coin.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, SusanM said:

On the subject of those letters - do they actually make any difference to the decision a judge makes with regard to sentencing?  A few years ago here in Canada there was a bit of controversy about whether victim impact statements were appropriate or not, I guess these kinds of letters are the other side of the coin.

I'm guessing in less egregious crimes they might tip the coin if the judge was down the middle. But I don't see how they can help in cases of CSA.

[Cinnabon]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm guessing in less egregious crimes they might tip the coin if the judge was down the middle. But I don't see how they can help in cases of CSA.

In this case, it seems like Anna’s letter, in particular would push the judge toward a longer sentence, because Anna seems oblivious to the incredible depravity of the CP Josh was interested in, and she has 7 very young kids at home she should want to protect. 

[quarks]

I think it's possible that in certain cases, letters might help - if they convince the judge that the convict is unlikely to repeat the crime.  For example, someone convicted of a DUI might benefit from letters noting that the convict has agreed to enter a treatment program and will no longer have access to a car.  Something like that. 

I don't think these particular letters fall into that category. It's not just that the supposed charitable acts described range from either not being particularly charitable (sweeping up cracker crumbs) or eyebrow raising (what exactly is going on with that monthly payment to the widow), but I don't see anything in these letters that suggests that Josh won't reoffend. Instead, I see plenty of evidence that his wife, at least some of his in-laws and the two Burgesses will continue to allow him to have full access to computers. Indeed, the Burgesses sound ready and able to provide him with a top of the line laptop, in their names, the second he leaves prison - and have the money to do so.

So I don't think the judge will be swayed by these letters. I could of course be wrong.

[Absolom]

6 hours ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Most states have work exemptions for domiciliary parents with children under 5, or at least they did when I worked in social services many moons ago.

If Mr. Google is to be believed the current requirement for a parent with a child under 6 is 20 hours a week.  

Anna would be able to do some part-time job at a school or mornings only if she put the older kids in school and could get free childcare for the under fives.  Otherwise it probably wouldn't help her.  

[Future Cat Lady]

I haven't read all the letters, but it seems like none of them really adress his crimes or alleged that Josh has remorse. Could it be because they want to appeal?

They can't say he did it and then try to convice the court to have another trial?